The Missing Piece: Cracking Therapy's Toughest Cases

PART ONE: Addiction - Video Games and Screens

• Heleen Woest

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Guest: Dillon Robertson, LPC:
Email: Dillon@waypointPDX.xom
Bio: https://www.waypointpdx.com/dillon-robertson

In PART ONE, we get into video game and screen addiction. Also tune in for PART TWO where we will talk about Pornography and the different and cutting edge treatments for these behavioral and digital addictions. 

35% of people with Internet Gaming Disorder also have ADHD. The neurodivergent brain is wired to seek dopamine - and screens deliver it faster than anything else in human history. 

What if the addiction isn't the problem at all, but a symptom of a brain that was never properly understood?

Today, we are diving into the complex, often misunderstood world of behavioral and digital addictions.


Research on Video Game Addiction

  • Systematic review & meta-analysis (2023) – Epidemiology and effects of video game addiction. Link: ScienceDirect
  • Gaming disorder & executive functioning (2024) – Meta-analytic structural equation modeling. Link: ScienceDirect
  • Longitudinal risk profiles (2026) – Changes in gaming disorder risk over time. Link: ScienceDirect


 Violent Video Games & School Shootings
Consensus:

  • APA Task Force: Violent video games show small, short-term increases in aggression, not real-world violent crime or school shootings. Link: APA Task Force Report
  • Time-series analyses: No evidence linking violent video games to homicides or aggravated assaults; some data suggest violent crime decreases as violent gameplay increases. Link: Markey et al., 2015
  • Racial stereotype research: Media more likely to blame video games when shooters are white, despite lack of evidence. Link: Markey et al., 2019
  • Cross-sectional study: Violent gameplay associated with higher odds of weapon carrying, but findings are correlational and require caution. Link: CDC study (2014)

TREATMENTS:
We will talk more about the treatment options for these addictions.
ADHD Medication, Ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, and GLP-1

LINKS

Learn more about Dillon: https://www.waypointpdx.com/dillon-robertson

Opening And The Stakes

SPEAKER_01

Today I'm talking again with fellow clinician Dylan Robertson, and together we're diving into part one of our series on digital and behavioral addictions, starting with screen addiction and video game addiction. As clinicians, we're trained to recognize the signs of a substance misuse about what happens when the drug is a smartphone, a gaming console, or an endless stream of digital stimulation. Screen and gaming addictions are not fringe issues anymore. Recent studies estimate that internet gaming disorder affects 3 to 10% of adolescents, and that excessive screen use is now linked to measurable changes in attention, reward processing, and emotional regulation. Neurodivergence plays a role in all of this. Studies show that over 35% of individuals meeting criteria for internet gaming disorder also meet criteria for ADHD. The common threat isn't just neurobiology. It's the nervous system's attempt to regulate, escape, or feel competent in a world that often feels overwhelming. So today Dylan and I are breaking down the good, the bad, and the ugly of screen addiction and gaming addiction. If you've ever felt stuck treating a client whose life is being swallowed by a screen, this is the missing piece you've been looking for. Let's have a listen.

Dylan’s Gamer Perspective

SPEAKER_01

I'm your host, Helene Burst, and I'm a licensed professional counselor. Dylan is a licensed professional counselor based in Portland, Oregon, working with Waypoint Counseling Services. He specialized in working with children, teens, and young adults and couples using evidence-based modalities like CBT, DBT, and the like. But what I really love about Dylan's approach is that he brings a deeply personal, non-judgmental perspective to his work. He is a self-proclaimed gamer who loves video games, board games, Star Wars, DD, and he understands the culture from the inside out, which is so crucial, I think, when you're trying to build trust with a young person who feels like every other adult in their life is just judging their screen time.

SPEAKER_00

Hello. Thank you for having me there.

SPEAKER_01

Of course. I think you are the right guy for this topic.

SPEAKER_00

I hope so. You think?

SPEAKER_01

All right. So let's do some questions here. So you're a gamer yourself, we just said that. And I imagine that gives you a massive advantage when building rapport of teens and young adults. So how often do you see treatment fail simply because the therapist or the parents fundamentally misunderstand the gaming culture and just view it as a waste of time, which I have to admit, I thought that at times. And uh rather than just understanding this social connection and also the dopamine rewards it provides. So that's a lot of questions. So see if you can do all that.

SPEAKER_00

I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01

All right.

Gaming Benefits And Moderation

SPEAKER_00

Uh I think the fun way to answer this is it's both. It's a waste of time and it's a social thing. It's connecting, it's dopamine, it's creative. The way I often talk to parents about it is in all things, we need some moderation. So gaming can be a really fun. There is research out there that talks about like how it helps with people's reaction times and it helps with creativity and it helps with some of that social connection if you're playing multiplayer games. But if you're letting your kiddo, or if you yourself are playing for 10, 24 hours, some people do, uh, then obviously that can become a big problem. There's even been r records of parents uh letting their child die because they played games and just ignored the kid.

SPEAKER_01

Wait, what? Die?

SPEAKER_00

This was years ago, somewhere in Asia, that these parents were playing a game and they had an infant and they just didn't take care of the kiddo. So worst case scenarios, like any addiction, it can be horrible. What I try to help parents understand, anybody actually, is it's not necessarily that we look at gaming and thinking it's horrible. We need to look at it and say, what is the purpose of it? Just like with any coping behavior, with anything we do, why do you do it? What do you enjoy about it if your child is playing a game that is just like Call of Duty and you're just running around shooting other people? It's like, well, that looks horrible because you're just killing other people. Okay, well, maybe ask the questions. I'm always about help me understand. What is it about this game you like? What do you enjoy? Is there a social aspect? Yes, is there anything that you could tell me about how this serves you, helps you cope, helps you get your frustration out or calm down? I I love the comment that people say, it why do you play games to calm down and all I hear is yelling?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yes, that's a good question, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Why do people listen to sad music when they're sad? Why do people listen to angry music when they're angry and blast music when they're driving?

SPEAKER_04

Huh?

SPEAKER_00

It's a way to connect with something that in some sort of way is able to empathize with you. So I can play a rage-filled crazy game and be super pissed that something goes wrong, and at the end of it, I can take a deep breath like okay, I'm I'm done, I'm over it, whatever. And it generally does not last beyond the actual gaming session. So, what I'm trying to work with a lot of families, parents, even young adults, is again that moderation is really helpful, being aware of yourself. If it's a problem, set timers. Like we all are autonomous people, set a timer, be aware of what you're doing. Okay, great. If you remove any coping skill like that, that is going to leave a gap that's going to cause a problem of well, now what do I do and how do I cope? So when parents say, Oh, kid does X thing, they lose this thing. Like I recognize the need for some sort of consequence. But if you take away their only coping skill or their main coping skill, what are you helping them learn to develop, to grow in? Yes. And no blame to the parents, but because of how COVID happened and electronics have been significantly on the rise and used in schools, there needs to be some level of integration in how that is used. Like you put limitations or you give them an iPod or something to uh help reduce the use. Yeah. But if they're addicted, don't you want to stop it? It's like, yes, but to a point we need to have progress.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And it's like that with any addiction, we gotta go slow, right? You can't just, if you just yank benzos, people die. Yes. Just yank alcohol, people die, right? So we have to go slow. And what I also hear you say that I think is really important for parents to know, is that this could be something that also helps your kid in a major way. So keeping that in mind, we can't just take that thing away. Because what if they have super, you know, serious social anxiety, and this is the only friend group that they have, because this is the place where they actually feel safe. Behind a screen, they can talk to people, they feel more confident. And are you taking really the social interaction away that's really necessary for them? I mean, there's kids who have agoraphobia, they can't go anywhere. This is their friend group, right? Um, not just that, I think uh what you just said about getting in touch with some of those emotions and sometimes playing, is that what you meant? Like sometimes you play an angry game because you are angry. Yes. So you're getting in touch with it without taking it out on other human beings and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. The common stories that we hear are always going to be the loud minority. So you get those stories, and maybe you hear hundreds of stories about angry kids and video games and addictions and all that, but you don't hear about the other hundreds of thousands of stories of people having fun, connecting, making stupid videos together because they're being goofy.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of connectivity in that, as well as you know, you look at a single player game. Well, that's not social. What do you do with children with neurodivergence? You help them with social stories, you give them space to practice. Exactly. A lot of single-player games are designed to engage in story, and more of them today are allowing you to make moral choices and decisions, and it's something that can be in a healthy moderation, a training space for people, yes, a spot to connect, a place to learn. Like, even if you don't know how to respond to someone, oh, that I never thought to respond that way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00

So there's a lot of different aspects that can be beneficial.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, in moderation. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So again, asking for whoever is asking the person who's the gamer, like, why do you do that? Like, what game are you playing? If there's an assumption made about the game someone's playing, video games are no longer just video games. Like, this isn't like Atari where it's every single game is just kind of like a doo-doo-doo doo doo. There's story, there's action, there's role play, there's simulations. Maybe someone plays 10 hours a day and they're learning how to fly in Microsoft flight simulator.

SPEAKER_01

That is a total different concept to me because I'm still stuck in the Atari. See, there you go. That's for the games. I know Donkey Kong. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00

But that's the point. We hear about Call of Duty, uh, Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario, um, racing games, and it's like, well, that's gaming, right? Yeah. To a degree, sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes. And I do think a lot of parents, Gen Xer, like myself, has a limited, not all of them. Some of them are great, you know, but has a limited view of video games and and is there's just a bad connotation. There is no good. So uh how much of it do you also encourage parents to find out more, to actually maybe play the game with their kids a little bit and find out if it's really this horrible thing, or see how creative they can be. I know that for me, um, I do probably the best with Animal Crossing, but you know, there but it's I I love it because it's very creative. So my daughter introduced me to that and she is neurodivergent. Then she introduced me a little bit, showing me videos of DD, um, and just how creative that is. That's just amazing how how that actually grows people's minds, their brains, because they have to think about this. They have to think what comes next, they have to think on their feet and all that kind of stuff, right? So I I had to a little bit embrace it and look at it for what it is to really get a clue. I think I didn't have before. So it's easy for us to just push it away because we're afraid of it than actually looking at it, right? So, do you talk to parents sometimes about this?

Asking Better Questions About Play

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. To broaden the conversation, not just to electronics, but to all sorts of interactive creative media, I'll call it. So be it tabletop games, board games, virtual internet-based games. It it is something that when I hear of parents saying, Oh, I do this game, or I learned this game, or I sat with my kid, that is almost the same as someone saying, Hey, let's go get coffee and let me hear your story to a kid who doesn't necessarily have the language. Like, I don't know what to do. Um I guess I'll just play this game. Oh, I love this hero. Well, that's a weird hero to love. Why? Well, look at what they do and how they handle things and how they talk. On the other hand, there are a lot of games where the protagonist that you play does not ever say words. And people often are like, why? Like they'll make noises when they're doing something, but they don't talk. It's a, in my opinion, it is a creative choice to allow the player to come up with their own inner monologue, dialogue. You can hear another character that's talking to you. A non-player character is what they're called, NPC.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

An NPC can talk to you and you don't say a word, but they're still having a conversation with you. It gives you the opportunity to be creative.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, you have to use your creativity, you have to use your imagination.

SPEAKER_00

So pushing into the DD conversation and tabletop things, the role-playing aspect is you take on a role other than yourself. Oftentimes, um, I'll say this: the most uh noteworthy DD things like critical role is huge now. People love it because there's some very famous voice actors who are playing these games and they are amazing and they play these completely different roles than who they actually are. I would say more often I find people do one of two things. They're either exploring a totally different character, or they're kind of being themselves just in a different world. So it's really cool and interesting to see what people choose.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, even different scenarios, like hey, we're doing sci-fi, we're doing fantasy, we're gonna play as dinosaurs, we're gonna be in the world of Animal Crossing. Yes. Um, there's a reason like Minecraft even has been a huge, like years and years at the most played game overall, because it's creative, it's simple, anybody can get into it. Like there's a huge, huge community of um making mods so things that you can alter the base game. It's something I know all about that, actually. Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_01

My daughter's so into it. She makes these amazing worlds. You make a whole world in Minecraft. I'm like, what? And she shows me inside her house and all this fancy decorating that she did and all the things, right? Or crazy things. She builds crazy things. It's just so such imagination use right there, right? And so that's what we want for our kids.

SPEAKER_00

So fostering that is important. Again, so kind of bringing it back to the mental health piece when a parent comes to me and says, oftentimes, in so many words, hey, can you fix my kid? There's something wrong. Um, like, okay, parent, like what are you doing? What's your relationship? Tell me about the house. How do you engage with what your kiddo is doing? Well, in so many words, I don't. Okay. Can you find a way to understand what they're doing, connect with them, not just to say, okay, what are you doing, but like, hey, I'm interested in you, therefore, what are you doing? May I join you?

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

There's a parent I uh loved hearing they got to play Breath of the Wild. Uh so it's a Zelda game. So you play as this hero link. Elf kind of hit well. So it was really cool because they would come to sessions and they would kind of talk about what they did or what the kid did or what mom did, or like, oh, I tried to catch up to him, so I was playing separately. Those are the moments that you may not realize it, but your kid is hearing, hey, I like to game. I know you don't love gaming, but you're trying to catch up to me so you understand the story separate of us, like that shows an intentionality in connecting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I want to understand you, so I'm going to do a thing that drives relationship deeper.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. Oh man, that is amazing. So something just popped into my head. Through the years, I would tell parents, I would tell them about this book of, and now I forgot the author's name, but the name is How to Really Love Your Child. It's just a thin little book. And this book basically, in a nutshell, it says, Your child wants to know that they are important. You're looking them in the eye. This is undivided attention, just focused on them, right? And that you care about them. And so what I'm hearing is like it's no longer just let's go out for breakfast. And I'm looking you in the eye, and you talk to me because, especially when kids are teenagers, they have a hard time talking to you, right? It's like, yeah, we go out for breakfast. What do you want to talk about? Don't be weird, Dad. Right? So um nothing. Exactly.

unknown

Nothing.

SPEAKER_01

So uh that is a way to connect. That is a way to really love our children, right? To really come to their level. And and it isn't always easy. Like, let me just say this as Jen Xert. Seriously, those games make me so nauseous. I can't follow along. It goes so fast, right? And I've heard other parents say this. It's just not I I have, you know, motion sickness. So it's not just me. Other parents are like, it makes my head hurt. And so it's that kind of thing, it's hard for us, right? But there is some kind of way for us to be able to interact, even if it's just them talking to us, showing us what they build. Those kind of things, I think, is the way that I go sit on my daughter's bed where she's like playing on her computer with Minecraft. And I'm like, what have we been building today? What have we been doing? So I'm not gonna run after you with this thing. It makes me nauseous. But she will show me everything that she built, everything that she did, and then we get into conversation. Um, because it is hard to talk to teenagers and young adults, really is.

SPEAKER_00

That made me think of so many different things. Um, that is not uncommon, obviously. The like I get motion sick, animal crossing, top-down, third player view. It's like no big deal. Yes. But anything that's fast paced, like Zelda. Yeah. Like you can pan the camera on your own, therefore, like, whoa, I'm spinning. There's research into that. They have literal glasses, they have like different like ways, like hacks. Wait, what?

SPEAKER_01

Really?

SPEAKER_00

My wife, she's younger than me, and she gets motion sick, so we can't play any games together unless it's like an animal crossing. But there's some glasses you can buy. They're really like simple, they're like basically straws with water, and the water apparently like sits like this below your eyes, and it helps your brain to process your spatial awareness to help you not get motion sick.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I'm gonna go Google this.

SPEAKER_00

There's more advanced things, yeah, but also like, hey, put this anyway. So there's a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_01

There's a way to do it.

SPEAKER_00

But the point being, if there's a barrier between you and your kiddo with electronics, it's not just as simple as saying, get off the game, get off the phone, get off the computer. Right. Because if you're telling them that, in theory, you're the parent, fine. But is there a way for you to understand them better and connect? Why are you on the game so much? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What do you love about this so much?

SPEAKER_00

It's it's something where you can actually learn something about what they want. Maybe it is just fun, but more often I find there's more to it. I know for me, like I started playing okay, uh, back when World of Warcraft originally came out. I was 15, 16.

SPEAKER_01

Your age is showing.

SPEAKER_00

I know, yeah, it's pretty bad. Uh so I played Vanilla Warcraft, and I still am like this was back in 2003, maybe 2004. I still have a friend who lives in New Zealand who I met while playing the game, and like we we randomly talk.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, that's right.

SPEAKER_00

I have friends all over the country from gaming that we just randomly connect now. Like we're adults, we have kids. Like it's something that I don't think my mom ever asked, ever knew about. I don't blame her because there was like no context for what do I do with that?

SPEAKER_01

No context, yes.

SPEAKER_00

But now it's something where I parenting advice with a buddy of mine who lives in California who we did World of Warcraft raids together. There were 40 people dinking around shooting magma hounds, like and we like had to learn how to work together. Anyways, I could go on forever about like the benefits as well as there are drawbacks.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So when it comes to that moderation conversation, how do I connect with my kid? Okay, I can play a game with you, help me understand. Cool. Um, if we're playing five, six hours a day, that's too much. So if we are playing, like reduce it a little bit, okay, what can we replace it with? What can we do differently? Well, I don't know what to replace it with if I don't know what the need is that's being met or missed. So that's where the investigation needs to come in. Yes, why are we gaming so much? Well, community, okay. Does do you need to figure out a place to hang out or invite your friends over? Or you're too scared to do that. Oh, why? What's going on, right? You can uncover so much.

SPEAKER_01

Like, let's bring DD maybe to the tabletop and I'll get some snacks for you guys and get some friends, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Something I can do. I don't have friends.

SPEAKER_00

I get that. I hear that a lot, which is not the full truth of the statement. I don't have friends that I can be vulnerable with, that I'm close to, that I trust to be cool with my nerdy weirdness. I don't trust that if I accidentally, you know, fart and rip one, that they're not just gonna like actually pay me. Yes. So I can do anything I want online.

SPEAKER_01

Like, oh, um not just that, I find my people. I find my people who are just as nerdy as me. My people who feel the same, my people who like to fart with me. Yes. I find my people online. So and that I think is a big thing because it is hard for kids. I mean, it's hard for us to find like-minded friends. I mean, um, me and you are so lucky. We're working at this group where we found our people, right? We found people who they talk, our talk, and they they understand. But it's not that easy for people and for children, for teenagers, even harder. They have it's so hard for them to be vulnerable, right? They go through so much, their brains are changing so rapidly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's really difficult.

SPEAKER_00

And I would not necessarily ever tell a parent, hey, these are really challenging years, let them do whatever. Actually, I would never tell a parent that. However, just let them go. But I would say, hey, this is a challenging time. Maybe they can't tell you something. But I was told a long time ago, some people connect face to face, some people connect shoulder to shoulder.

SPEAKER_02

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00

I've I was put in the context of men connecting with men and women with women. But I think it's even appropriate to say, like, especially with teens, like, I don't want to sit here and talk to you, you're lamb loser, whatever parent. I'm like, oh my gosh, like stop. So what does your kid do? Do your does your kid want to go bouldering? Do they want to play a board game? Do they want to go play basketball with their friends and you can't? Okay, then you could like maybe go watch them or something. Right. Or maybe you learn a thing. It doesn't have to be games.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Maybe they want to go on a hike because now we're shoulder to shoulder. Now they can actually talk to you, you know, instead of like being put on the spot, sit in front of me, talk to me. Yeah. Right? That kind of thing. Yeah. Oh, that's that's that's good stuff, Dylan.

SPEAKER_00

Because it makes me it it makes me think about what we call like the microwave generation, the iPhone generation. Everything is accessible like that. So more and more people are identifying with ADHD culture because our brains are now not just like able to process and stop, process and stop. It's like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Yeah. So everybody is struggling with some level of symptoms that look like ADHD when in fact it's our brains are being wired to have that input instantly, instantly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and we're inundated with it from everywhere, everything, like you say, down to our food. Quick coffee, quick food, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that is another reason that gaming can be so helpful. It can help someone focus on something. It hits so many sensory input pieces that people don't even know they want or need. So then when you turn off a game or you play a different game, right, there's so many genres out there that it's like, I need something fast-paced right now because my brain is chaotic. I want something slow so it can calm me down. I want a story so I can engage in something deeper. I want something like super simple so I can just kind of zone out, right? There's like so many different things that again, if you just say blanket statement, video games are bad, don't do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're missing so much, actually.

SPEAKER_00

Where it's like, hey kiddo, what are you playing? Oh, I'm playing the story-driven protagonist lead game. Oh, that's awesome. Did you say what's going on? It's an interactive book. My wife loves TV, I love games, and I tell her all the time, I'm happy to watch a show with you, but my gaming, I get to interact with the story. I influence what's happening. I'm a part of the world. Right. Which I didn't think of it like that. It and so for for your daughter with Minecraft, she is creating the space she gets to exist in. There are always going to be goofy boundaries and limitations that are game limited, not real life. But it is, per se, a space to train your mind in possibilities to open you up to something where I can't do this in reality. So then it does become the parent's job to kind of bridge that gap at some point in some way. And that's nuanced to each kid, to what they're needing, doing. But there is a lot of benefit if you can find a way to connect. And that's where like I couldn't tell you per one person. Um, it's something that you have to explore.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and I liked what you said, parents' job. I think that's the important piece of the puzzle. It's the parents' job to, even though it's hard, uh, if you want to love your child in the way that they want to be loved these days, in the in their generation's way, then you have to find a way in. You have to find an in-road somehow, right? Yeah. Wow.

When Gaming Becomes Addiction

SPEAKER_01

Well, Dylan, I want to move us a little bit towards the addiction part of this, right? Because the World Health Organization did classify, and you know, this um gaming as an addiction, a full-fledged addiction, because there are people who don't eat, don't sleep, they're just gaming all the time. Yeah. So talk to me about that. Uh, we said a little bit about moderation doing that. Um, is there something more radical that can be done? I'm thinking like rehab or something, you know, for people with gaming. Is there something that you know of? Uh, how would you treat something that is really full-fledged addiction?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um, I have never heard of an in-person rehab for a video game. Me neither. I'm just throwing it. I feel like that would turn into a land party, which is a local area network party where everyone's got like wires and Xboxes.

SPEAKER_01

Um A land party? I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh man, yeah, sorry, I guess another that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you know, people listening probably know exactly what you're saying, so you just carry on.

SPEAKER_00

As long as they're born in my generation, because they don't do that anymore. Yeah. Anyways, um, so that's not something that I I know of. Maybe there is. So when it comes to like the actual definition of addiction and how that relates to video gaming, I often say a lot of the games these days are almost exactly the same as what you get from gambling. Because if you're playing anything competitive, anything that is like, hey, go play this thing, go in and hopefully you find that special thing, or there's a lot of like um random number generation. So RNG, meaning you might get this, you might get that, and you try it a hundred times, and then you get that thing that one time. So that must mean in the next thousand times, I'll get one or two of them.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, it's so gambling related.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the psychology behind gaming is absolutely bonkers, and it's it's based on how do we manipulate a person to spend more time.

SPEAKER_01

Um yes, of course they want to sell more games.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of open world survival sandbox. So those are three big words. Open world, meaning there is no linear story, so you can run around for hours and never touch the main story. Sandbox, meaning you can build your own home. You can cut down a tree, you can do all this stuff, right? So, what's happening is people are getting drawn in so deeply that they don't need to connect to stuff in the world because well, this is my world. Right. Or I'm tired of this. There's 200 other games I could play.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, they lose touch with reality.

SPEAKER_00

So that's a that's a big problem to address. And again, it starts with what are you playing for? Actually, even take a step back. Hey, what are you playing? Right. That's what I'm connecting with a lot of my teens. Like, what games do you play in? Oh, I love that game. Oh, I'm terrible at that one. What is it about that? They could play there's a game called Valorant, it's basically like a counter-strike thing. Basically, it's a first-person shooter that you fight another team, and every time it's like 10 rounds or something. I don't know. I'm not great with this, but you can do the same thing a hundred times and it works 50% of the time, maybe 60% of the time. So then you're just like, well, I'll keep trying. Oh, I won this time, I lost that time. That's where a lot of the anger where you hear those outbursts. Yeah, it's not often, in my opinion, it's not often that, hey, this person is evil, mean, and bad, unless you know they're cheating. It's like I'm mad that I should have been better. I know better. I could have done that. And I rolled the dice and I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_00

It is hard to accept that I have put uh 5,000 hours in this game, and some noob who doesn't know how to play got me. That's I can't believe I screwed up. How could they? They're cheating, they've got no way. Right? That is like a problem where it's like I identify as this thing, and how could this have gone wrong? Now I'm mad at myself. That's a term called tilting out. You tilt, meaning I'm playing this game and I keep doing worse and worse and worse, and then I just freak out and I can't play anymore. So the way that we look at how do you handle gaming addiction, man, it is a very challenging place because in my work, uh, what games are you playing? What is the purpose you're playing for? Is it single player? Is it community? Is it competitive? Is it like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So identifying that piece and then saying, like, okay, so for someone, let's say who's addicted to Minecraft, okay, let's look at what are you doing in Minecraft? Because if they're playing survival or if they're playing creative.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So survival means there's monsters coming at you, there's ways that you have to fight them and places you go, and then you get to the end boss and blah. Creative is literally just building stuff. Right.

SPEAKER_01

It's just it's yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00

So then what would be it's like, why do I do this drug versus that drug? Well, they have different effects. Yes. So you treat them differently.

SPEAKER_01

So you have to get into the nitty-gritty. You have to find out what this is all about. And and the part that I heard you say about how it relates to gambling is that as a therapist, you will also look at um that a child's maybe or a teenager's maybe drawn in by something that they think it's a skill, but it's not. It's really a roll of the dice, right? That kind of stuff. Um, and I think there's it's so nuanced. There's so many things. So I am so glad there's therapists like you who actually knows all about this. Because how can you reach those teenagers if you don't know more? And so maybe even as parents, I'm hoping this video will help some parents understand some of this stuff a little bit more. Um, and you know, I know that we actually we were shooting for screen addiction here, and I think we should just do game gaming, and you'll come back for the other screens another day, because you know, that and then then there's another level of uh pornography that I think we haven't even touched. And um, and and and that's that's a whole thing by itself. But the gaming thing, I just think it's so big with parents that they don't understand, that they they don't understand what this is, they don't understand how important it is to the children, they don't understand that this is sometimes their only community, right? And um, but what they do see is they see the disconnect from reality. And I think that's the thing that that's really worrisome to us. That's why they bring them to you, right? Is now they're not eating, they're not getting dressed, they're not taking a shower anymore because it's all about that game.

SPEAKER_00

They're yelling at me and freaking out when I say you can't play right now. Or like it's time to go, we have to end.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. So, what do we do with that?

SPEAKER_00

And and that, yeah, I wish I had a great answer. And I imagine people would be like, dude, you didn't really answer the question. Like, yeah, I didn't, because there's not a good way to answer it. If you really wanted to have like a an equation, it's like fine, send me exactly what they're playing, how long they're playing it, what their interaction is, who they're playing with, is it a best friend, or is it random people? Is it VR? Is it PlayStation Console? Is it PC? Like, there's a oh my gosh, there's so many things. So much, yes, that it's kind of nuanced. Like yeah, each addiction is different, each game is different. So makes sense. Again, if you can find a way to connect with your kiddo. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna backtrack for a moment.

Post-COVID Screens And Family Systems

SPEAKER_00

Um, I want to give a lot of grace to parents in this stage, especially post-COVID, because I know so many parents had to rely on electronics. Yeah, whether it was TV, phones, iPads, gaming, anything like that, because they had to work.

SPEAKER_01

Well, just to get schooling done, right? They had to get this kid to continue their schooling. They didn't know how long COVID was gonna last. I know for me, that was true. Everybody had to go on screens, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, and what happens? Well, everyone needs to have their cameras on. What are you gonna do? Kick them out of class because their camera's off? No. So you have one teacher with 20 best case scenario, 20 kids in a class. Worst case scenario, 35, 40, more. So it's like, what are you gonna do? You can't, you're not gonna kick a kid out of class because their camera's off. They're gonna get in trouble, and then what?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So then kids learned, hey, I don't have to have my camera on, I can dink around whatever, do whatever I want. Oh, well, we have a school Chromebook. I always hear kids are smart enough, they'll find a way around it. Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_01

They totally do.

SPEAKER_00

You can only limit access so much. So then it it was a necessary evil to allow as much electronic use as there was because it's just the world fell apart. So I give a heck of a lot of grace to parents and say, there's no blame here. Yeah, you did what you had to do. Now on the other side of that, there is work to be done. So, what is your responsibility? What's your kid's responsibility? It's so easy to say, okay, I'm tired, go do your thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it takes a hell of a lot more effort to say, okay, I'm really tired, please come here. Because now you have to deprogram that I can always use electronics.

SPEAKER_02

Oh.

SPEAKER_00

So that's not even to blame. That's not saying this kid has an addiction there and it's the parents' fault. That's just to say, like, hey, it takes a it takes a system, it takes a unit, it takes a family.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it takes a village to raise a kid. Yeah, it does. Oh my gosh. It really does. I mean, you with having little kids, right? I just remember those days. There's a uh a place where we have to be selfless. It's literally, I want to go to the bathroom, but this kid is falling apart right now, and they come first. I just have to hold it or whatever it is, right? And um, and even with teenagers, uh older kids, I think it is it is easier. It it's it's so tempting for us to just say, Where's your phone? Oh yeah, take my phone, you know, instead of dealing with the tantrum or whatever. And but I do see actually uh parents from your generation actually, um I'm amazed. I think uh we did more of that when the games came out and stuff. It's just like, yeah, yeah, just go. They're quiet if they're on that thing, right? We didn't know much about it. But it's almost like like millennials are now looking at what's happening and they are saying, like, my baby is not going on any of this, right? They're really like looking at things from a different perspective, maybe because they were so so just ingrained in all of this. This was very much part of your generations uh you grew up with when it just came out, right? All the stuff.

SPEAKER_00

So I just watched this really interesting, like eight-minute video, like a psychological breakdown of people born 86 to 90, and we bridge the gap of two different worlds analog versus digital. That's true. So it's like I learned how to use an eight-track and a cassette, and then I had to very quickly learn what dial-up was and how to use the internet, and now I have an iPhone, and now I can do instantaneous things. So I was forced to learn how to do both things very fast. So we had to adapt quickly. So now us as parents, and a lot of people, not just that age range, but a lot of people are like having to adapt to, well, now the school is doing tech. What am I supposed to do with that? Yeah. Or things are virtual, uh, virtual doctor's appointments, every like everything is basically virtual. I don't have to go to the store, I can order off of Amazon. Yes. Literally, everything is digital, and a lot of us are needing to adapt, struggling to adapt. So either take care of yourself, kiddo, or like get off the game or get off electronic. It's like, what we're training people to do this, not just the parent, it's the culture as well.

SPEAKER_01

It's a culture, yes.

SPEAKER_00

So it's a, you know, as we say, it's a systemic issue that can't be just addressed by I'm done with you gaming.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So what do you do? How do you help a person? I'm not gonna say kids, how do you help a person find things to fill them that are going to be hitting those different dopamine centers? Because again, gaming, electronics, pornography, gambling, drugs, alcohol, all those things hit places in our brains that normal activity doesn't.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So how are you gonna counteract that? I mean, for a long time we joked World of Warcraft or online games, just digital crack.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, because a dopamine rush. Yeah, right? Yeah. It's literally makes me feel happy. Yeah. Makes me feel better. If I had something traumatic happen, it makes me not think of that. I can just bury myself in this game. And you know, that brings me to, you were saying, not just children, very much so.

Social Media Algorithms And Anxiety

SPEAKER_01

Uh even down to my generation, there is now a Facebook addiction. There's just like scrolling around on all these social media places and and just, yeah, actually, everybody's doing that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's another one, right?

SPEAKER_00

I have a lot to say about social media, and most of it's not positive.

SPEAKER_01

Go ahead and say it.

SPEAKER_00

The positive things I will say, and again, I I will use uh I love you, Quinn. Um my wife has used a lot of social media. Um, right now she's basically only on Pinterest, and she does that intentionally because she's like, I will go down the spiral. This thing hears me, it knows me, we'll talk about something, and then all of a sudden the phone, right? It's like all this end user license agreement, the ULA is that everyone's like, Did you read this? Yeah, the biggest lie in the world.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

So it's listening to us, it's learning from us. So, long story short, um we can't handle as much information as being given to us. And all the time something is going wrong. Whether it's like in our country, in the world, in our neighborhood, in the schools, we are gaining so much knowledge all the time that people are getting so anxious, so depressed, like hopeless. Then take the um influencer accounts. So the influencers themselves are not bad people, but what they're they're being paid. Yes and they're learning how to engage with people in a way that is fun and enticing. And it's like we used to say, don't compare yourself to models and magazines, but now you have a model who's talking to you, or not even a model, it doesn't matter. They're telling you what to think, what to do. Not because they're controlling, maybe they are, but because it's like, oh well, this person has 200 million followers. They must have something.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

I want that thing.

SPEAKER_01

Can I just put a disclaimer in here that I'm not getting paid for this? Anyway, sorry. Yes, now I totally hear you. I totally hear you, Dylan. Yeah, it's it's crazy because um now we're talking about somebody who already has an issue. Say, for instance, uh they uh turn to shopping and they've been hurt by all the social media and all the things, all the AI. And um, before you know it, it's just all the things they love the most keep coming up. They can just open their phone, they can just really log on, and there it is. Um, somebody with paranoia, for instance, right? Yeah, um, I've heard this from a client before telling me that this happened to them where just because they're looking at all the things that they're so worried about, and now it's coming up more and more. Now they're inundated with it, and uh it just makes everything worse. So definitely if if it comes to those kind of things, screens can be harmful in many ways. And and it almost seems these days to me that video games is the least of our problems. You know, there's so much else. And and unfortunately, unfortunately, we don't even as Gen Xers, and sorry if you're not like this, but you know, what I'm saying is uh we we don't know what we're doing, we don't know what's happening. My daughter has to tell me, mom, you can't do that. Don't go on that. I'm like, why? It's so innocent, you know. And she's like, no, no, it isn't. It definitely isn't a mom. Yeah, so I definitely think that we have a problem too. Screen use in general is a problem across the board, not just we're not just talking about um

Violence Fears And The Real Drivers

SPEAKER_01

children. I know people in their 80s that's on their iPad all day long, right? So uh so but I I have a question for you about this, and this is a very sensitive thing when it comes to games, seeing that me and you're mostly talking about games today, and that is um how it's been linked to school shootings. What do you have on that? Because I actually know nothing much about it. I just know that lots of parents say that's what's to blame. Yeah, um, the violent games. And so, so say a little bit more about that, Dylan.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I remember when those when it was like on the rise and hearing constantly it's all these violent games, it's all this shooting, it's all this stuff, and Grand Theft Auto being one of the main games that has been pointed at, saying, This is teaching people how to do this stuff, and it's horrible. And like I I agree to an extent, like you absorb something, then yeah, it's in your brain. If you if you look at the people who have committed, whether it's a school shooting or a mass shooting, anything like that, the psychology of it, it's hard because most of the time you're not gonna get the whole story, um, whether it's because of the person or what's happening. Um again, I feel like it's so nuanced depending on what they're doing, what they're playing. So, does a violent game, movie, book, person, family influence a person to have the capacity for that? I mean, more so than just an innate human ability. Yes, absolutely. Um, is it the main reason? Probably not. It's a contributing factor. So if you want to say, hey, this kid plays Grand Theft Auto every day for five to ten hours a day, and then they became a school shooter. Is it because they learned what a gun was from Grand Theft Auto and that you could slap this person and steal this car and blow this up? I mean, sure, that gave the idea that that's possible. Um, why are they playing that much? Why do they have? Access to that game? Do they have access to anything else? Do they have a social circle? Is there anyone else? Oh, well, there's a couple of people who have, you know, done shootings together. Okay, so there's one person? Like what where does their support come in? What family interactions, what trauma has happened? What is their like interaction with kids at school? Oh, they were bullied and they're dumb nerds. Oh, whoops. Right. It's not just games. No.

SPEAKER_01

It can't possibly be. There's such such anger behind it, too. Right? Such anger. Um, and how do we look at that? Like anger, where did it come from? Was it already there? So yeah, I agree with you. So many factors, right? And I want to back up a little bit here and say that I don't have a lot of research on that, and I just realized that. And so I actually, with I I think I'm gonna get us some research, and I will add it here to uh the show notes so that we can all read it and see, you know. But I do agree with you that it can't possibly just be that. That is just it can't it can be if a person is already very angry, don't have a relationship with um their parents, don't have a relationship with kids out there, and this is all they do every day. I can see that it can become, but so so many times, what I've heard at least is there was a grudge, there was pain that wasn't dealt with, that wasn't talked about. Um, and and many times they actually have some population or someone in mind, like um, you know, just uh hate crime, stuff like that. Yeah. So we're not gonna just blame uh video games for that. Yeah, but I I so love that you just helped us take such um holistic view, if you will. No, that's not the word. Such an all-over view, a bird's eye view at this, and look at really everything, right?

Red Flags And Getting Help

SPEAKER_01

And see that the good, the bad, and the ugly of gaming. Um and and what I've hear, what I've heard you say too, is like if if you if there's a parent out there whose kid is really addicted to gaming, uh they feel like that kid is just that's all they want to do, they forget to eat, they forget to sleep, they forget to do all the things, and they are very combative the moment the parent talks about it, then that's sort of like some red flags that there might be an addiction. Um and then to take lots of steps to not just like make an assumption, but to stand back and maybe even get uh a child psychologist or therapist involved to help you sort it out. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I think it is different than a substance use addiction. Uh it is a mental thing, it's not necessarily a physical thing, so it's not like the kid is in immediate danger almost any time. There, I'm sure there's situations. I would always suggest to a parent um you need to investigate. Like, not just say, I see you gaming, like you know, figure out what's happening, try to sit with the kiddo, learn what they're doing, why they're doing it, right? And they may not say a word to you, but just saying um it's the game's fault is then a shirking of responsibility to the parent. It's like they didn't just go out and buy this thing. So again, not blaming the parent, but what is your responsibility in this? Yeah, telling your child to stop doing the thing that they have been allowed to do for so long. Well, now you're addicted. Okay, first calling your kid an addict is like, are you kidding me? Don't do that. Telling your kid, stop this thing. You bought this for me years ago, and now I created this habit and pattern of learning how to cope and handle and deal. And now you're telling me I just have to stop. Right. It's like investigate, do your due diligence as a parent. I'm even dealing with the consequences of having a child with special needs and using the TV sometimes, and then my daughter uses the TV, and it's like they sometimes lose their minds because I'm like, we're done with TV. Ah I can still see that, but yeah. So no, I gotta take responsibility for that. Yes. I'm not perfect at this. I was like, yeah, okay. Uh we're gonna pause on the TV use and reduce that because it's becoming a problem. Right. Yeah, my responsibility is then, oh, I get less rest, so I have to be more intentional with my time. So I need to adapt my life to my kid. Oh, interesting. It's not just about me. Again, not saying parents are selfish, but there are moments that we can take a step back and look and say, what is my responsibility in helping my child?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, yes. I like what you're saying with that. Is it's that it will we we sort of have to take stock uh in those moments when we um when we're just owning our part in all of that. We have to take stock of our whole lives sometimes, and it's not necessarily a good thing. Uh oh, a bad thing. Sorry, it's not necessarily a bad thing because uh then we also have to look at my own self-care and stuff. Why, why do I just put my kids in front of the TV? What's happening in my life that I just or in front of games, whatever it is. Um not an easy topic at all. And I think we'll continue to talk about these things.

SPEAKER_00

One last thing I can

Modeling Responsibility And Starting Now

SPEAKER_00

say. I tell parents all the time one of the most important things you can do in a mental health setting, especially, is be a model. Model for your kids what you're wanting them to do. If you want your kiddo to open up to you, you can start by taking responsibility and saying, like, hey, I'm asking you to get off this game, and I recognize I'm the one who provided it to you. I'm the one who put it off on you, I'm the one who had to work during COVID. So I'm not blaming you, kid, and not blame myself, but yeah, I'm a part of this conversation. So I'm not saying get off the game and do nothing and stare at a wall.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you're a bad kid.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm saying, I'll take my responsibility. Yeah. Can you recognize yours? It starts with the adult being the adult, yeah. Acting like an adult.

SPEAKER_01

Which is hard sometimes. Yes. Let's just say that.

SPEAKER_00

It is, it's so hard sometimes. And if you don't have it, okay, fine. But we gotta learn how does it how does it become a part of the family situation, not just you're the problem kid.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, because um we teach by example, right? And even in owning things, we're teaching our children something because uh I hear parents say, Well, my kid, it's just everybody else's fault. They're not at fault. And I'm uh asking, do you actually, you know, I don't want to be accusatory, but it's like yes, that's what I ask. Please tell me more because I want to know, you know. Um, is it do you even if you own things, do you tell your kid that you own things? Do you say, I have a hand in this too? You know, it's not all on you. Um but this is, I think it will be an ongoing conversation. Um, and I'm so proud of the parents out there who are investigating, who are already doing this, you know, are saying, like, I gotta find a way to love my kid, to truly love my kids so they feel love because there's a difference between loving your kid and them feeling the love, right? And so I think just to find that place of how we can do that. Um, I just love all the knowledge and everything you bring to this still. And I want to give you, you know, a chance to just a few more words there for the parents, maybe for the kids that's listening, even, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I like what you said. I I encourage the parents that have been doing and trying to connect with your kiddos, super important. As well as the parents who feel like they failed, drop the ball, can't figure it out. It's like just start. There's it's not too late.

SPEAKER_01

Never too late.

SPEAKER_00

It's not too late. Oh, yeah, it is this and that, and the other thing is so horrible, and my kid's out of the house. Like it doesn't matter. No, you have the ability to make a change. It's so hard. It can be insanely hard.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it's hard to change.

SPEAKER_00

And I often tell people, regardless of gaming, it's like, hey, changing a thing takes a long time. It takes a lot of effort and it's painful sometimes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You can do it. Don't do it alone. Ask for help, get support, whether it's a therapist or a friend, do some research.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Tell your kid, be honest. Like, I recognize this is a problem. I have no idea what to do. Yes. I'll be back.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. That's good. I like that. I like that because it is like, I'm not gonna tell you right now, stop everything. I can tell you it's a problem and I'm gonna investigate. Yeah. You know, and let's do this together because we need that village to raise our kids. We really need the village. Sometimes it's as easy as just talking to an older brother or sister, talking to a cousin who also does gaming and asking, what's this game about? I really don't want to start playing it to find out. Okay, you give me a little bit of background, you know, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I guess the my final words to parents or anybody, just be like, I encourage you to be encouraged that it's okay. Start now, start exploring, whether you do it on your own or you do it with the person, figure out like what is what is this thing? How do I engage with it? What's my responsibility? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, those are really wise words. And I I want to thank you for today. It's I feel like you were very encouraging towards parents and and to myself, you know, that gaming isn't always bad, that there are so many good things to really look realistically at this and look from a better side view and see that this might be such an amazing resource in your kids' life. It is not necessarily a bad thing. It it even if they play a lot, it's maybe time to investigate and to see what this thing brings to the table for them because it could be part of the village if we use it right, right?

SPEAKER_00

We could go for another five hours if you want. So, yeah. No, I I appreciate being able to talk about this, and I would love to come back.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm definitely having you back because we just touched the tip of the iceberg, but thank you so much, Dylan. I'll see you next time for sure.

unknown

Thank

Encouragement And Closing

unknown

you.

SPEAKER_01

All right, so I hope the parents are as much encouraged by hearing some of these things. Just learn a little bit more about gaming. This was amazing to me. So, as always, thank you so much for joining us. Take care of you and your loved ones. I'm Helene, and this is Missy Peace. I'm Helene Host, and this is Listy Peace.

Head Shot

Heleen Woest

Host