The Missing Piece: Cracking Therapy's Toughest Cases

Dying for Sex

• Heleen Woest

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 54:34

Send us Fan Mail

Content Warning: This episode contains explicit discussions about sex, childhood sexual abuse, BDSM, and death. Listener discretion is advised.

Today we are talking about the FX mini-series Dying for Sex, based on the true story of Molly Kochan. After a terminal breast cancer diagnosis, Molly realizes she has never had an orgasm with a partner. She leaves her marriage and goes on a wild journey of sexual self-discovery before she dies. But this story is about so much more than sex—it is a profound look at childhood sexual abuse, dissociation, and what it takes to actually stay in your body and experience true intimacy.

Host Heleen Woest is joined by Certified Sex Therapist Melinda Arnold to unpack the clinical and psychological themes of the show. We explore why dissociation is such a massive barrier to connection, how gender roles keep us from honesty, and the surprising ways that BDSM and consensual power exchange can help survivors reclaim their bodies and their absolute right to say "no."

We also dive into the existential aspects of dying, the beauty of platonic love, and the crucial role of somatic work in healing. For those who don't have the stomach to watch the explicit series, we made this episode so you can learn from it without actually having to watch it.

Show Notes Links:• Melinda Arnold's Bio & Contact: https://www.waypointpdx.com/melindaarnold

Series Setup And Safety Disclaimer

SPEAKER_02

Today's episode is an interesting one. We are talking about the mini-series Dying for Sex, which is based on the true story of Molly Cohan. The series follow Molly after she gets a terminal breast cancer diagnosis. That existential crisis knocks her out of a resigned, unhappy marriage when she realizes she has never had an orgasm with another person. She leaves her husband and goes on this wild journey of sexual self-discovery before she dies. But this series is about so much more than just sex. It's a profound look at childhood sexual abuse, dissociation, and what it takes to actually stay in your body and experience true intimacy. I have sex therapist Melinda Arnold back with me today to unpack these themes. So a quick disclaimer before we start. This TV series contains explicit content and is definitely not suitable for minors. For those who don't have the stomach to watch it, we made this episode so you can learn from it without actually having to watch it. That said, we are going to be talking openly and frankly about sex, sexual abuse, BDSM, and death today. And as therapists, we are very aware that this may be triggering for some people. So please take care of yourself and skip this episode if you are worried that you might be triggered. For everyone staying with us, grab a cup of coffee and let's get into it.

Why This Story Hits So Hard

SPEAKER_02

Welcome back, Melinda. Thanks. So today what we're talking about, wow, what an impactful series. Um so Melinda recommended that I watch this series, Dying for Sex, and it's brilliant. It made me laugh, it made me cry. Uh at times I cried so hard, I was like, thanks, Melinda. But it's a really good series. Um, so can you share your initial thoughts and feelings when you watched it? I believed you watched it more than once.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um gosh, my initial thought was why did I even want to watch it? I think I I wanted to watch it because I had heard that it was based on a true story about two friends as they're navigating terminal illness. And um, I was really curious, I think as a as a sex therapist, what does what's the sexual storyline and what's the relevance of that? And um, and so it was deeply meaningful. All the there's you know, there's several storylines happening at once. There's double processes happening at once. And um I think that it's kind of this a beautiful story of the human experience, kind of pressure cooker, pressure cooked, I guess, um, at the end of life. Yeah. So it kind of adds to the intensity of that meaning.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. I just had to have us make a podcast after I watched her. This just so good, right? Yeah,

Leaving Marriage To Reclaim Agency

SPEAKER_02

so let's start with the protagonist, Molly. She is diagnosed with stage four metastic breast cancer. She's still young, and her diagnosis becomes the catalyst for a radical, unapologetic reclamation of her life. She leaves her 13-year marriage and embarks on a journey of sexual awakening, emotional honesty, and existential clarity for sure. Um, Molly's easy to like. She is emotionally honest and um brave, impulsive, deeply human. And even though her bucketless item is to have an orgasm with a partner, which is very interesting, it seems to be about much more than that. So, can you speak a bit about that existential moment that Molly had? Her taking stock of her life when she heard she was dying. And what do you think it was really about? Why did she really leave her husband?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so to set the scene, she gets the call about the cancer having returned and its stage four status during couples therapy. Oh, that's right. Yes. And in a matter of minutes, she chooses to leave her marriage and then asks to basically be cared for by her best friend. Um, and that I think it sounds like, you know, as you watch this character, she's already having a very different internal world or internal life and experience than she is out loud. Um and sometimes I think we just need a huge kick in the pants that says we we can't mess around anymore. This life is short, this life is precious. Um let's let the outside match the inside kind of thing. And I think what the reason she chose so swiftly to to leave her role as wife in this particular marriage um is because she did not want to be um in a role of uh being cared for and really having no agency in that. He was such a great caretaker, but he did so in a way that prevented her from making her own decisions, from feeling as though she was a whole body and not just a sick patient. And it seemed like in that moment she realized, especially because this was terminal, I cannot live the rest of my precious days like that. Yeah. Her sense of agency was too important. So she this was her kind of choosing what role she wants to play the rest of her life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I agree. Um, and also to give a little bit of um backstory on the husband, uh, she's been sick before and he's been caring for her. And for him, it was really difficult to have sex with her. Um, I don't have that in the notes, but I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit towards that. Um, would that be a difficult thing, you think? Um, I feel like in a way, yes, he's a great caretaker, but some of the things might also have been normal for him to see her as fragile and not sexual, you know? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I think they're uh who I can't speak to like the history of their whole marriage, right? But it maybe exacerbated a dynamic that was already present.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

But to give a lot of grace to caregivers taking care of someone with cancer or with, you know, a profound illness is is a big undertaking.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and how can it not change the way you interact with one another?

SPEAKER_02

For sure.

SPEAKER_00

I couldn't quote the stats, but I know that it's a really tender time in in relationships. There's kind of more infidelity in during pregnancies and and chronic illness than in other times because it's so stressful for the caretaker. Yeah. I think it's sad. Yeah, it's super sad. I think it's high stress, but I also think it is this divergence from we are these equals to I see you differently. You're fragile, like you said, you um and it's hard to receive, and it's yeah, I don't know. Yeah, there's a lot to it. But he also gets a lot out of it, like a lot of pride of being a good caretaker. It's just hard to come back to how do I see myself as as the caretaker, as being an equal with this person, as being someone like she can take care of me too. How do I see my partner as someone who's still a whole being that that is is deserving of the whole human experience? Um that's really hard to do when survival says I need survival is dictates attention.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yeah. So I think also um at one point she is making some kind of bed, right? And she is um reaching out to him and wanting to pleasure him, and then he starts crying, right? Yeah, which I thought was sort of like um an indicator also of that he can't see her as sexual right now. He's just so sad, he's so in his in himself, you know. So I'm wondering uh again, something we didn't necessarily put on the notes here, but um, if you encounter a couple like that, what would be your recommendation? Would you um want both to be in therapies because it's just such a complicated situation? Absolutely, yeah. I think so. Yeah, probably the best, best way to go about, right? Yeah, all right.

Orgasm Pressure And Healing Through Pleasure

SPEAKER_02

So um let's talk about orgasms for a second. So for people who have had lots of earth, earth-shattering orgasms, I use that word there. I don't know if people really have that, but maybe. Uh but you do, apparently. Well, thinking about someone dying without ever experiencing that, how can we help a client who is unsure whether they will ever have this experience, especially against a devastating backdrop of sexual abuse or assault? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Well, there's a couple approaches here. One is to help teach them to have orgasm, but that's not always available to everybody. Uh so I think it's it's questioning like, what's our ultimate goal? Is that really what is that what you're wanting specifically? What's and then kind of identifying what's preventing that in you? Sometimes it's emotional, sometimes it's physical, sometimes it's lack of body awareness, it could be a lot of different things. Um, but regardless, is I I like to kind of normalize like this is not a guarantee for every living being. Um, and that you're not you're not weird or broken. Broken, yeah, it's really fine. Um, so we do have this big emphasis on orgasm, and part of um like a sensate focus process in sex therapy is to um reduce the demand for orgasm, reduce the pressure for that, take that off the table for a while, if for no other reason is because um performance anxiety is diminishes your capacity for orgasm. So, like let's at least get rid of the performance anxiety by removing the the need for that to happen, but also expanding this awareness that we can experience endorphins, dopamine, and definitely oxytocin in other ways. Okay, and so when we celebrate and in some ways like elevate orgasm as the ultimate human experience that's really defeating and devastating unnecessarily for a lot of people, yeah, and so I like to normalize it. Is it great? Yeah, is it actually great for your health? Absolutely. Is it a really bonding experience? Yes. Is it the worst thing in the world if you can't do that? No, no, because there are other ways to experience those things, yeah. Different, totally different, but still, you can still have bonding oxytocin moments with other people. You can still experience dopamine in highs of pleasure, you can still, you know, have endorphins. Um, and so that process, I like to say it's like healing through pleasure. What other ways do we experience pleasure and can we act like learn to savor and appreciate those things even more deeply?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, because um, yeah, there's so many things, so many ways to have pleasure, which by the way, we find in the series, right? She discovers more things. And um I'm glad you're saying that because yes, I think there's a lot of people who feel like they're broken. Um, they don't even want to tell their friends that they can't do it because it seems so wrong. Yeah, and they feel ashamed. And can you say just one more thing? Uh something you said that stood out to me is it's not even available for people sometimes to do it themselves.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So can you say more about that? Because that's curious to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh man, the orgasm response is we assume that that's available to everybody, but it's not for lots of different reasons. Uh, it could be um medication, it could be scar tissue, it could be um sensory issues, um yeah, lots of different physiological issues. There's also a lot of emotional issues that prevent um an orgasm response. And so there's there are just a lot of different obstacles, and some of them are permanent.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Um I think some people will be relieved to hear that because um even in this series, it's like almost at least I can do it myself, right? I can't do it with a partner, but at least I can do it myself. But that's not even a guarantee. I think in a previous uh podcast, I mean you talked about that nobody's gonna die if they don't have sex, right? And that it's uh it's a privilege, it's uh um great if you if you can have it, but um well, maybe we should be more sensitive that there's a lot of people for whom it's not just a given.

SPEAKER_00

I think the the uh the constant um is that we are all sexual beings. What that looks like is very different and varied. Even someone who identifies as asexual is still a sexual being. That's just the expression of it.

SPEAKER_02

That's right.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Um, and so thinking more broadly as far as what does it mean for me to be a what is my sense of sexuality, what is my experience of sexuality as someone with a body, as someone with relationships. Um, and can I learn to really lean into acceptance of that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So

Faking Orgasms And Gendered Expectations

SPEAKER_02

let's go on a little bit here. We learned that Molly's had been faking orgasms to not hurt her partner's feeling. Now, studies indicate that over half of women, around 56 to 58 percent, have faked an orgasm at some point, often citing the desire to please a partner or protect his ego. Uh sounds a little like patriarchy to me. Um, and gender-related too, you know. Can you talk a little about how these gender roles and expectations can keep us from intimacy and honesty, which as shown in this series, are just crucial components for healing with a partner?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I yeah, transparency uh and openness is is uh is a must for intimacy and for connection. So whenever we're faking things or feeling like we're guarding parts of ourselves, we are inhibiting a deeper sense of connection. And there's lots of obstacles to transparency, gender role being part of it. There's um I think that there is some socialized responsibility put on women to caretake and be responsible for the emotions and the experience of the other person. Um, and so that's an obstacle. If we're afraid of hurting the other person or damaging their ego, then we may not be transparent with the fact that that wasn't working for us. Um but there's we're also highly conditioned to to consider how we are perceived. And so if we have internalized that if I can't orgasm with someone else, there's something wrong with me, I don't want to actually display what is wrong with me.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so what I really love about this show, uh, and then this is displayed through all her journey through kink stuff, is that it's about acceptance. I there's one character in particular who has a pet fetish and wants to be the dog. And I'm not even sure that there is orgasm or if it becomes like what we would normally consider sexual, but it's um this role play. And I think part of that journey for her was accepting she was super safe and accepting, like, oh, you want to try this? That's what you want to do? Okay, I'll think about that. I'm like, yeah, let's give it a go. And through that is practicing acceptance with others, and ultimately I think that allowed her to have acceptance with herself so that she can also say anything weird or want anything out there. She can say anything she wants, yeah. Can can give a status update, can just be honest.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that actually gives way to better outcomes. Yeah. Sexual experience outcomes.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yeah, I love that part too, where she's just what you said, where she's like, I'll think about it. Um I think for the most part, if it's it might feel unsafe with a partner because they're worried about our like, you want to do what? Right? Just that um shame that we could just so easily throw on each other and now just maybe take a beat, think about it, and say, Let me get back to you on that. All right.

Dissociation, Trauma, And Staying Present

SPEAKER_02

I feel that the show accurately depicts how childhood sexual abuse can have a devastating and crippling effect on the life of survivors. Uh, the man who abused her shows up as a faceless ghost when she's having sex with someone, which immediately makes her dissociate and leave her body. Um, can you explain why dissociation is such a massive barrier to true intimacy?

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, my brief response is well, it prevents connection. Yeah, so if you're somewhere else, you are not with this person. And dissociation, as you know, is a huge scale of experience. It's to from blackout is the most extreme to distractibility. Um just drive somewhere and not know how you got there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Often that happens a lot to me. Um but uh I often am like I hear, oh, I was making the grocery list in my mind while we were having sex. Well, you do. Okay. Yeah, something like that. It's like, okay, you weren't present. Um right. But with um sexual trauma, dissociation, in all honesty, is a beautiful form of coping. It's a beautiful coping strategy of like, I'm removing myself from this traumatic experience so that I don't have to experience this traumatic experience. Um, and unfortunately, when sex, the experience of sex is tied to trauma, we don't want to experience sex either, even in a good setting. Yes, even in a healthy setting. Um, and so though it's it's uh an effective coping strategy, it is ultimately disconnecting because that's what the strategy is. I'm disconnecting from this experience to survive it.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and when you have the opportunity to experience it in a really great, like relational, safe way, um, we still can't connect to that and then to that person as well, and to ourselves. Like there's no connection to anything.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Um so we've lost the the maybe the beauty and the the benefit of a sexual experience if we can't stay present. Present.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um yes. I want to ask, throw this question in there. What about fantasies? Is that dissociation in a way because we don't want to be with this person, or could it just be sort of a helpful tool for some people? Both, maybe?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. There you go. Yes to both. Yes. Fantasy, they say that your brain is your biggest sexual organ. Yeah. Fantasy is a common, typical, normal experience, maybe especially for women. But I think everybody, yeah. Um, and it's a powerful aid to arousal, but it absolutely can be used to separate yourself from what's happening presently. Yeah. And so, yeah, I can see that. So neither want to pathologize it, nor would I um want to discourage it.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Yes. Normalizing that I think is like a big part of our work, isn't it? Yeah. Because people always come to me with so much shame that I'm having these fantasies when I'm with my husband. Is that okay? You know, it's like, well, you're not actually doing it. What would you say? Actually, what would be your response if somebody were to say that I feel really bad I'm having these fantasies about other people, other things when I'm with my husband? What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, does it prevent you from enjoying your husband or your partner whoever you're with? Um, yeah. So what is the harm that's being caused?

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

When what is the experience that you want to have?

SPEAKER_02

So maybe something we need to also be able to bring into the relationship. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_00

So if the guilt is actually, I feel like I'm being secretive. Okay. So it's not really about the fantasy per se, as much as it is about the secrecy of it. Yes. Yeah. So then I would probably offer that person education. Well, just so you know, we have a whole like a fantasy template uh or profile that works for us that doesn't necessarily align with what we would do in real life. Right. Um, and it's okay and it's normal, and it's kind of what helps move you along this arousal process. And so if I can empower you with that knowledge, when you go to be more transparent with your partner, you may also be able to empower them with that knowledge. I've noticed that this allows me to be more present with you or more excited. And this is kind of this tool that I utilize to help with arousal. Turns out it's really typical and normal and common. And but I I want to bring you into that because I want to share more with you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It helps with intimacy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It grows that actually.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for that. I like that. I I was wondering about how you do that. You know, many times I'm sitting in my office and wondering, what's Melinda doing? What would she say in this moment, right? All right.

Learning What You Want And Saying It

SPEAKER_02

So um so Molly goes on this wild chase to find different sexual experiences and to maybe for the first time uh get to know get to know herself sexually. There's this big realization when she's with a younger guy who obviously knows what he wants when he's he keeps yelling clench, which was hilarious. Um, but it forms a quite stark contrast against her not knowing what she wants because he keeps asking her, you know, what do you want? And she's just dumbstruck. Uh, do you think that many people out there simply do not know who they are and what they want sexually, or does it mostly apply to people um who come through sexual trauma?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I don't think it is it's only limited to sexual trauma survivors by any means. Um yeah, I think there's a a load of people who really don't know themselves. And this might be because of beliefs of my sexuality is only whole when shared with someone else, or it depends on the per of, you know, is the other person having a good time? So kind of more focused on um uh pleasing someone else, or or yeah, so like I often see this in with women and more conservative upbringings, as far as like your body's not your own, it is for the pleasure of somebody else, then there is no need for them to know themselves.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And unfortunately, what that does is their partners normally actually really do want interaction. What pleases you? And they can't speak to that. So they outsource their pleasure to this person they're with who is not attached to their nerve endings and cannot actually speak to what the experience is like. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Um good way to put it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I in general, though, I think a lot of us struggle to have like clear communication about certainly knowing what we want, but being able to say that too. I mean, my critique of this character is his his feedback is clench. What does that even mean? He doesn't really know. He never describes what that is. He might know what that is for himself, but if he can't translate that to his sexual partner, they're not able to do that for him. And so also there it goes with yes, no, know thyself. No what, no, pay attention. It even if if you're learning on your own or if you're learning through experiences with partners, pay attention to what it is that you like and figure that out enough that you can explain it and direct someone who is wanting to give you periphl or pleasure. Um, and so all of that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We just live in a society that's fairly sexual repressed, despite shows like this. Um, yes, and despite like how sexualized we are, we also have a hard time putting language and speaking clearly about it.

SPEAKER_02

So I I think there is some truth to be said about uh first learning how to have good sex with yourself or learning at least what you like in your body before being with a partner. So is that something you would sometimes tell people, hey, let's leave the sex for a while, and how about each of you just explore yourself to do that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also the agency. Your sexuality is yours first, and you get to choose to share that with someone if you choose.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, which is huge in this show, right? Yeah, getting to a place of agency. Yeah. Um, there are a few hilarious scenes with Molly's neighbor. Now he turns out to be quite the guy, but at the beginning we see him as somewhat mysterious and definitely pretty messy and gross when he's like with the hamburger slobbering all over him. And uh at one point she yells at him to pick up his trash. She's just so fed up with him of all making messes in the communal space, right? And uh, she's shocked when he actually obeys. She's like, pick that up, and he goes, pick it up, right? And so that is the moment when something clicks, I feel at least, that she realizes that she's that she actually likes being in control, or that maybe she can be in control. Maybe that's not something that ever came to mind, right? Uh, control is the main thing that every survivor of sexual abuse or assaults, assault has been robbed of, or at least that's been my experience. Um, their choice and their know have been stolen, sometimes very, very young, at a very young age. So, how do we help clients take back their power and control over every facet of their lives? Um, but especially what we're talking about today's sexuality, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think in the question is is the answer over every facet of their lives. It's baby steps of learning to have agency, knowledge of self, and self-advocacy um in other areas of life. So, what do you want to eat?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. What you talked about last time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if we were to go to a restaurant, yeah, what food sounds good to you today? Yeah. Um, and that's a hard question for a lot of people. It is. Um, okay. Uh what kind of let's pick a show, you know, like let's think about what is gonna give you pleasure today and give you space to really consider yourself, own what it is that you like, and then ask for it. The next baby step would be how do you negotiate that with somebody else? Um, well, I want Chinese food and you want Indian food. So what what are we gonna do? High food made in the middle. Let's go to food carts and both of them are there. Or like, yeah, today we do this, tomorrow we do that, whatever. Um, yeah, negotiation is a big piece of that. So, yeah, baby steps, but it's all about uh I think we need to learn through experience that having preferences, um knowing what we want is totally okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and uh owning that is really okay. Now there are some personalities that are truly like, I'm along for the ride and I'm super content with that. And I and I would actually say, like, yeah, that's within that's your choice to be a follower. You feel empowered. That's still a choice. To be a follower, yeah, exactly. That's still a choice, and you have more flexibility and and less preferences, and you're just genuinely happy to ride along. Great, just you, yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yes, and I think uh just like you were saying, taking back your power in every facet of life's big life because many times she's dealing with people who come from trauma, or sometimes people are very codependent. They were in a relationship where there was somebody had an addiction, somebody has a severe mental disorder, and they just became the caretaker, the one who's codependent. Asking them sometimes, what do you want? They'll tell me, Well, I just want my husband to be okay, or I just want my wife to uh not have this problem, right? And it's like, but what do you want? Right? It's almost like they've they have no idea even how to answer something like that.

SPEAKER_00

What would it feel like if your spouse was okay with XYZ?

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Or if they were calm or if they were happy, what would you feel like? Yeah, how else can you feel like that? Hmm, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. All right, so um, let's move on to Molly.

BDSM, Consent, Aftercare, Window Of Tolerance

SPEAKER_02

Um, she seems to be doing her own kind of exposure therapy over the first few episodes. So, yeah, she gets into all kinds of situations, and even though she learns more about herself, it does not prevent her from dissociating. So it keeps going, right? She's still doing it. And then uh she moved towards BDSM and kink, which actually helps her stay in her body. So I want us to pivot for a minute to BDSM, uh, especially how it has been used in the treatment of survivors of sexual trauma, more specifically, the fact that it is not inherently sexual, and many people engage in it for regulation, trust, embodiment, and emotional connection, especially people with neurodivergence. Can you give us a little bit of psychoed on BDSM for listeners who are not familiar with this, have no idea what we're talking about? And also explain how something that looks so intense or even painful from the outside can actually be grounding for some folks with, like we just said, neurodivergence or survivors of sexual abuse.

SPEAKER_00

Um, you have another guest on this podcast that could speak to this way better, Rachel. Yes, well, definitely. Um Rachel's, but I'll give you some. Just as a reminder, BDSM stands for bondage, discipline, dominance, submission, sadism, and masochism. Um, and it sounds really scary to those who aren't familiar with it. Um, I think a lot of us had our first exposure with Fifty Shades of Grey. Um, you ask people in the BDSM community, they are like, no good. Yeah, they're not supportive of what was portrayed. No. I like this, how it was portrayed in this story because um it yeah, it it displays more of those healing qualities. So and people might scratch their head, like, how is this healing? Um but BDSM culture, it's it's anchored in explicit communication. What's demonstrated um in the show is talking through agreements beforehand, yeah, having safe words, being able to negotiate what consent looks like before, during, and after, um, and being very clear on that. Otherwise, safety can't exist.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So, because you're basically role-playing um power roles uh in the power exchange, um, there needs to be a clear understanding of how to get your power back, which is empowering. So, even as the submissive part, there's this idea of I'm leaning into trust and I'm learning leaning into noticing my own limits and being able to advocate for myself in those limits.

SPEAKER_02

Saying stop when I want to stop, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So boundary setting is really empowering. Um, so it's I think there's uh it's also like a somatic processing of trauma stories sometimes. Being more of an active agent in that story and redefining how that story ends and how it goes, and also how you experience that story is really powerful. I like somatic processing in general. So the idea that BDSM could be kind of the stage in which that happens is really interesting. Again, with the right people. Yes, I think we have to underline that one over and over and over again. Like it's a somatic anchor that helps increase your window of tolerance. Um, so window of tolerance is basically like when you are traumatized, you have a very small window of tolerance. Like what things where you can notice peace and calm. Um, we are easily hyper-aroused, and I don't mean aroused in a sexual sense, but more of like your nervous system being activated. Um, and so this is an opportunity to kind of expand that window of tolerance so that you can um kind of stretch that ability to kind of tolerate discomfort or that kind of stuff, and then you have a larger window of tolerance to experience peace and calm. Um there's a little bit of exposure in that too. So um the pain, if there's a bit of pain or too much pain is is bad, but there's an extent in which pain can be grounding because it's a focal point. Um, and that's really helpful for people who feel dysregulated and that kind of stuff. So um, and also some of the sensations are highly regulating. There's rhythm to that, but more than anything, and I think what uh what I observed in this show is it can help find agency and empowerment. Um and so, and not just as the dominant. And so I in her process, she had to learn how to be submissive first before being an effective or safe dominant dom. Um, and I in that I think is this sense of noticing herself more, noticing her own limits, her own edges, um, and being able to stop that kind of thing. What I've uh learn what I'm learning too is the role of aftercare. I think we assume like there's harm done and then people just piece out, but actually like part of that process is the aftercare. Um God depending on the how intense that is, it's caring for the wounds, um, or it's just holding someone and saying you did a really great job. And that was really beautifully portrayed. Wasn't that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yes. I love the compassion that I saw in this community, right? And I think that's a big thing that people are thinking BDSM, they're thinking violent people, you know, people with some kind of weird thinking about sex. And really, it is not true. Most of the time, at least the people that I've talked to who really are part of this community, they're compassionate human beings. They're literally people who want you to be yourself and experience the things that's really gonna help you, that's gonna uh make you feel alive. And at the same time, like you said, huge part of it is caring, is um having rules, you know, very strict rules as far as like uh I want to be safe for you. When she is in that submissive role, I really like um I like the part where I think what she's learning there is that if I want to be a Dom, I need to know how to be safe, right? Because I cannot trust this Dom unless I feel that she's really safe when she was doing that. And so um and that's sort of what she was telling her to the women who was teaching her, if you will. Um, telling her that you have to be able to be a good submissive before you can become a Dom. Um yeah, thank you for talking about that very controversial thing, I think. And uh uh we might get a few um, you know, interesting comments about this, but uh yeah, we're open to talking about this. If you guys want to comment, um, you know, we would love to reach out to people who are not sure what we mean by all of this. So

Friendship, Loneliness, And Dying With Someone

SPEAKER_02

um let's talk for a minute about Molly's best friend Nikki. Yes, she is amazing. I love Nikki. One of the most touching scenes is at the beginning when Molly basically asks Nikki if she can die with her, right? That's what you said as well. And Nikki's character is chaotic, warm, disorganized, fiercely loyal. Uh, you can't just help her fall in love with her. I know I totally fell in love with Nikki. So, in the end, it's ultimately a love story between two best friends showing that intimacy is about so much more than sex. Uh, so many people yearn for that kind of love and friendship. I think some um people who are watching the show might feel that deep pain of loneliness, of like, I wish I had a friend like that, you know. And uh 2024 survey reported that 21% of adults experience acute loneliness do not have a close friend in their lives. So there's a lot to say about Nikki. Maybe you want to say more. My question just here is do you think we are just lucky if we find someone with whom we want to die with, you know, somebody so close, or is there something we can do to cultivate it? Um, lots of questions in all that. You answer it in any way you want. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Um if we're just lucky or if there's something we can do. I'm my hope is that there's something we can do to cultivate that um that closeness. And I think maybe we just uh imagine if I was what can I do? Like if that's what I want to experience, what kind of friend do I need to be in order to kind of foster that environment where that's something that's possible?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um sort of what we teach our kids, right? To have a friend, you have to be a good friend.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, totally, totally. But I think it um that storyline is my favorite of that whole show, is the such beautiful it's a love story between two friends. It's so beautiful. The first time through, I was like, all right, Nikki, you're giving up a lot. This is a little codependent. Let's have some, whatever. She she lost a lot in that, but there's this line that just uh gets me, and I would just was rewatching it this morning so I could get the words right. But she says at the end, she's talking to the boyfriend that she lost through this process. Um she says, I didn't think I was capable of loving someone this much, but I know I can now. I'm never going to be there at the start of someone's life, like at the beginning, but I am gonna be there at the end, and I'm just gonna love that person right up to the end. And I like this contrast between having the privilege of being present at someone's birth and seeing that being present at their death is also a privilege. Yeah. The closest I can, I can and this is kind of pathetic, but the closest I can relate to that is we put our dog down uh two years a year and a half ago and chose like we're gonna do it in our house, and we had someone come and we were all present for him, and being able to just hold hold him as he left this world to me still gets me right in the tearjerker, just because is it sad? Yeah, but I think more than that, it's this privilege of being present with someone as they let go.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

It is a beautiful privilege.

SPEAKER_02

It is, it's never easy, it can't be easy in any way, but it's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

And then to have in some ways the privilege of knowing that someone is nearing the end and having this intentionality and purpose of like, I'm also gonna live really well with you right up to the end. Uh, let's take advantage of us knowing this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, as shocking as that might be to hear something like that. Knowing, having more of a time frame. I think some people wish that they could have had that, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's it's really beautiful and heart-wrenching just um to see that part. Um

Letting The Body Speak In Grief

SPEAKER_02

one of my favorite characters is also the palliative care. Do I say that right? Palliative care social worker, Sonia, who helps Molly navigate the emotional, relational, and existential aspect of dying. Sonia also leads a trauma-informed oncology support group where she uses creative expression to help the patients express with their bodies the emotions and grief that their words cannot. Um, I love that. That's right up our alley's, I think. The scene where Molly finally lets her body take over and do the talking. It was just breathtaking, wasn't it? And so heart-wrenching. I was definitely like holding on to my heart while watching that. Um, I think there were several things that helped Molly heal, but this this one was a big one. So I made, you know, this. I I was sitting there thinking, I need to do more of that. I need that in my practice. So, what's that stood out to you when you saw that?

SPEAKER_00

Well, shout out to Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate for these roles. I think they both should have won awards. It's so beautiful. But that scene for Michelle Williams was really amazing. That's Molly's character, or Molly, the actress that plays Molly, um, of finally noticing and listening to like the the pull of the body that was like, you need to move this story out of you. And she did. She just started moving, and it she was completely unapologetic or self-conscious about it. Her safest person in the world was present and also got to witness that. Like cool story was that, right? Yeah, very cool. Talk about privilege, right? Um, and so effectively like leading or following the the lead of the body that knows so well what it needs to do to feel, to move, and to process whatever was stuck.

SPEAKER_02

Our bodies know. Yeah, you know, I I love the part that the nurse at the end also says the body knows how to die, right? All the stuff comes back to the body, the body holds on, the body keeps the score, holds on to trauma, but there's also something to be said about letting our body release it. Beautiful, yeah, really beautiful. Yeah, wow.

Clinician Discomfort With Sexuality

SPEAKER_02

Now, Sonia is also the counterbalance to the oncologist, Dr. Pankovich, Pankovich, whatever, uh, represents the clinical and impersonal side of cancer care. So, yeah, this guy made me laugh a lot. He is the Older stiff white male who is very uncomfortable with all the talk about orgasms and sex. So basically, a boomer. And I can say this because I'm a Gen Xer and I'm married to a boomer, so I'm allowed. But definitely I thought that when I saw him, it's like your boomer is showing. So I love the scene where Molly breaks down his defense when she ever so gently insists that he sees, she's like, Come sit here. Yeah, yeah. For him to see her as a whole person with emotions and desires, not just a patient. It's beautiful and heartwarming to see him come around as the show progresses. You know, that made you made me smile as he finally tries to say some things about sex and show he's brave now, right? So, how important is it for medical and mental professionals are like to deal with their own discomfort around sex and sexuality when treating patients? Uh, I I guess we also want to say is there a lot of clinicians out there is probably very uncomfortable. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00

I I'm thinking about so many things. One is uh I don't think a lot of doctors get into like surgical specialties or these high-level specialties because they're such deep feelers. I think they do that because they're such deep thinkers.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, they left brain.

SPEAKER_00

And I if I'm honest, and if I had a brain tumor, I'd rather go to someone who has no bedside manner but is really good. Yes, the clinical part. The clinical part. And um and I think there's also a protract protective strategy. If the if the oncologist is moved and changed with every patient, like they would be wrecked.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So although it's a beautiful storyline, I also think it's fairly uh unrealistic.

SPEAKER_02

Um you think there's always somebody who stays sort of like staying.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And maybe it's just like that's the personality that's drawn to the field, you know, they're really interested in the medical. You could even have autism.

SPEAKER_02

I'm saying boomer is showing but sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and maybe there are some that aren't aren't. And but when we talk about like medical professionals being trauma informed, that feels really important.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

A medical professional is being sexuality informed, that feels really important too. Because so many um patients' sexual symptoms are just ignored or dismissed. We can have a whole nother episode on menopause. Yeah. Oh, definitely. That's on my mind. Um those things are just disregarded. I'm gonna, or, or like mental health, I'm gonna prescribe you an SSRA. Yeah, yeah. Normally does have negative side effects to your libido and sexual um experience, but who cares? That doesn't matter. And realize, like really saying actually, this does matter a lot, right? Our sexuality is such a big part of what makes us human, again, on a range, on a spectrum of what that looks like for each of us. Um and so, yeah, it's it's really important. Mental health professionals, because it is our job to care, we get into the work because of the emotional and relational elements, yes, more so than the left brain parts. Um, even more so to have a comprehensive understanding of human sexuality, a compassion for that process, being willing to advocate for that process. And it's uncommon. It's uncommon for counselors to be comfortable talking about sex.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, not even everybody is drama-informed, let alone sexually informed, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it's like 95% of therapists avoid the topic of sex. Oh wow. So it's and hopefully that's changing. We are getting more more informed, I think just societally about a lot of different things. Um, but people still come with their own hangups and their own like awkwardness and discomfort about and and about certain topics and sex is one of those. Yes. Kinks, even more so, even more so. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

We need some psychoeducation, I think, you know, and maybe some in our own lives, a little bit of exposure therapy. Some of these things, right? Yeah. Well, we're getting to the end here.

Hospice Humor And Making Space For Death

SPEAKER_02

So watching this can obviously we cannot ignore the overarching topic of death and dying. And I think me and you delved into that a little bit here already. Um so the nurse in there, she is uh sort of shocking how she's just upbeat about death and everything, and and and they're just looking at her, stunned, right? And I was thinking, whoa, lady, is something wrong with you? How do you act like that? But then I read about it. I read afterwards that hospice nurses are trained in blending psychoeducation, existential support, therapeutic humor, and death anxiety reduction to give the family permission to talk openly, laugh, cry, ask forbidden questions, not try to be perfect. So um, when you saw that a little bit of a funny nurse, uh, what went through your mind when you saw her?

SPEAKER_00

I like that act actress a lot. Paul Paul Powell. She's so great. Um what went through my mind was wow, this makes it so much less scary.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

This like the celebrating of that. We we hear I I I had two babies, was able to deliver them differently, but still they came out of me. And I it's such a cool lived experience. And I think what I heard a lot and what I tell other people a lot is like this is such a beautiful, natural human experience that you have the unique privilege to do or to witness or to be part of in some way, and um, normalizing and celebrating that process, it um transfuses enthusiasm, it removes some of the scariness of that process because there's certainly a lot to be scared about. And I think she did that about death. This is another human process. Your body knows what to do. Yeah, it's kind of predictable. Yeah, it was very biology. Yeah, we can explain what happens, we can explain what happens, and we can actually maybe even celebrate. And she then she's like, I forgot about the rally. Sometimes this happens and it's so fun. Um then we see the rally, we see the rally, it happens, and even though there's like this sadness, like, oh, the rally means we're getting to we're very close to the end. Also, let's enjoy this, let's celebrate it as like a beautiful part of that process.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it to me it was mind-blowing that last part, very much so. Yeah, um, so I'm gonna end this out here with this last question because it brings us sort of full circle to what Molly really wanted. Molly

The Tender Wish And The Real Meaning

SPEAKER_02

ends up getting her dying wish and an incredibly tender and loving scene, also funny still between her and the neighbor guy. So we didn't actually find out his name, did we? No, he's always the neighbor. Yeah, he seemed to be a symbol of Molly's exploration and healing rather than a full-fledged out partner. He didn't really become that. But afterwards, she tells Nikki that she finally had that orgasm with a partner, that she actually got her dying wish. Um, she does not say the words, but she acts it out like she was taught to do, and that was just beautiful. It had me bawling all over again. What went through your mind as you watched all of this unfold? You know, the whole tender scene about her getting that wish. What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_00

I was happy for her, and I also think that it was understated in a in a good way that may like that there was a sense of accomplishment, that there's a sense of I want to be faithful to this process to the end, but also recognizing this wasn't the be all and all.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um and super happy that she got to do that. And she did that with someone she really trusted. That and that's part of the storyline too. It's like I can orgasm, but I don't feel comfortable doing that with someone else. Um and she got there, which was really moving to to that kind of self-discovery and that healing process. And she couldn't even say the words in part because she's silly. Um, and you're right, I think that it mirrors like the the culture, but also this like let's not overstate it. It it didn't need to be like a parade.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and if it wasn't happening she probably would have to do it.

SPEAKER_00

And if it didn't happen, she'd be okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I think that's the important part to say.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That she did the things, it made her aware of her body, it helped her in so many ways. And even if it didn't end in orgasm, there was still such a self-discovery.

SPEAKER_00

The meaning of this, this is why I love the show, is the meaning of all of these things, even the kink stuff, like there's so much deeper meaning of all of the things. And the meaning of her being able to orgasm with him was not about the orgasm, it was about her ability to be transparent, accepting herself in in front of someone else, to trust this individual enough that she could do that. That's the beauty, that's the meaning of it, not the orgasm itself.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I think you you just wrapped it up beautifully for us. That is the meaning, right? Um, well, thank you so much for first of all uh recommending the show to me. Uh, and so for helping us breaking this down, you know, for anyone listening, uh, whether you watch the series or not, I hope you walk away knowing that your body belongs to you and that healing from sexual trauma is possible. Now you can find Melinda Arnold at waypointpdx.com and I will also put her direct link in the show. Thank you so much for being here, Melinda. I really enjoyed this one.

SPEAKER_00

I love talking about this.

SPEAKER_02

So until next time, keep looking for those missing pieces. And I'm Meline, and I will see you next time on the missing piece. Thank you for joining me. I'm Holine Hurst, and this is the Missing Peace.

Head Shot

Heleen Woest

Host