The Home Improvement Website Fix to Win More Leads Before They Even Call

Chris Behan has been in digital marketing since before Google was a thing. He was generating leads online while most people were still figuring out what the internet was. He's generated tens of millions of leads for home improvement companies, built and exited a business focused entirely on this industry, and now he's the president of Truvolv.

He also has a very specific point of view on why your leads are getting more expensive and your results aren't keeping up - and spoiler alert,  it has nothing to do with how much you're spending.

In this episode of The TruCoach Podcast, Chris joins industry legend Brian Gottlieb in breaking down why website speed is the most overlooked conversion lever in home improvement marketing, why the agencies telling you to spend more are selling you old technology. 

There's also a conversation about something most home improvement companies never think about: the difference between brand story and direct response, and why leaning too hard on one without the other turns your marketing into a barking dog your customers eventually stop hearing. 

The TruCoach Podcast is brought to you by Truvolv - digital marketing and business coaching experts built exclusively for the home improvement industry. TruCoach is Truvolv's mentorship program: real-world guidance from people who've actually built, scaled, and exited home improvement companies so you can skip the hard lessons they’ve already learned and get to growth faster. Learn more and have your lightbulb moment at truvolve.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome to the TrueCoach Podcast, where you'll find industry-specific actionable methods to help you build a supercharged home improvement or home services business. From leads to leadership, we exist to help you and your team successfully grow. TrueCoach is your single source of truth for organizations looking to scale. Brought to you by TrueVolve. You'll get exclusive access to leaders who have been there and done that. And the wisdom that only comes from experience. Proven strategies for you and your team to implement.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

This is the TrueCoach Podcast, and I am joined today by the president at TrueVolve, Chris Bean, and Brian Gottlieb, owner and investor at TrueVolve. Guys, welcome. Brian, I uh I'm interested in your take on everything Chris is taking. So I want to hand it over to you and just kind of listen in for a bit.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

First of all, Chris, thanks for joining us. I appreciate it. We're gonna have some fun today. And I want to I want to ask two questions. But the first part of the question is over the course of your career, and you're probably not gonna get to an exact number, and I get it, how many leads do you think you've generated for other companies?

SPEAKER_04 1:04

Jeez, I've actually looked at this a couple years ago. And a couple years ago, and obviously I'm still continuing to grow this number, but it's it's in the tens of millions of leads that I've generated for individuals. So yeah, it's it's been a lot of leads.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah. So tens of millions of leads. Now that I got everybody's attention on what you're capable of, maybe you can fill people in on your background in the industry.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Sure. So my background is about 33 years of digital marketing specifically. So not just in general marketing, but digitally speaking. Uh my background predates Google by a number of years. I beta tested some of their programs as they were rolling them out. I started off in search engines like Inktomi, Excite, Alta Vista, Ask Jeeves, engines that most people have never really heard of. So I was very early on in the industry. Uh started a company back in 2006-ish that focused specifically on the home improvement industry and generating leading generating leads for them. Uh, exited that company back in 2020, took a couple of years off, didn't do all that much, kind of got bored out of my mind because this is just in my blood. I took the job as a pres as the president of a company called Fusion Zone, where I did a lot of digital marketing for like Toyota, Nissan, Acura, a lot of the large OEM style companies. So a all digital marketing, a really, really big background in it.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah, that's fantastic. So it's interesting. When you made a couple of phone calls, a few phone calls to some people that wanted to invest in your vision, it was pretty easy. It was an easy, it was the easy calls to make. We got together and you laid out your vision for a different type of website, SEO, and paid search company. Part of it had to do with conversions. And and I understand how you view speed equals conversions, but maybe you can talk about that to everybody else because it's one of the things that really makes things different.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Yeah, I mean, I think conversion is the answer to the problem that so many home improvement companies are going through right now. I mean, during COVID, we had all of this extra search volume online. But what made that very unique, there was less competition going after that volume. Now there's a little bit less traffic online, although it's starting to really rebound, but there's way more competitors going after that traffic. And sadly, the only answer that agencies even have is to spend more money. It's like volume is up, competition is up, you need to spend more. Where I look at things like you should be converting more of the traffic coming to your website. So if the average website has a conversion rate of two or three percent, even affecting that a little bit will have a massive impact. And one of the main ways that you can affect the conversion rate of a website is through the speed of your website, how quickly that the web page actually loads for users. Because we have to remember that most traffic coming into your website is coming in on a mobile device. And latency or the inability of a website to load really, really quickly is the number one reason that people will abandon the website conversion process. And the problem in our space is that agencies sell old technology, they sell things like WordPress or Webflow, things like that, that are inherently latent. So, what we're very focused on is the conversion rate of the website. And it's just one metric that, in my opinion, most marketers are missing at this point.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, it's so funny that you say that because this morning, Kathy and I are looking for maybe a cool old retro Bronco that's been restored. And we saw some ads and we clicked on this one site. We're trying to navigate this. This thing got was so slow operating these images, we we we abandoned it. We we went away. It's a it's a lead that they'll never have because of that.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Right. And it really goes even deeper than that from a speed perspective. Like I tell people, Google rewards speed. So if you want to rank higher from a search engine optimization perspective, speed up your website. If you want to pay less for per click in your Google ad or your Facebook ad, speed up your website. Because when you do that, what's called your quality score actually increases, allowing you to pay a little bit less for every single click that comes in. So speed is in the core of everything that we do. And it gets well past digital marketing, in my opinion. So when I talk to people that say, I ran TV, I ran radio, it didn't work. Well, being where I've been, having run campaigns with Toyota and Nissan and all of these large companies, I get to see what mass advertising looks like on an analytics package. And for every second you speed up the website, the engagement grows drastically with that user. So it might not have been the TV ad, it might not have been your radio ad. It might have been your website.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah. And the other part of that is, and I think that's the unfair competitive advantage of TrueVolve, other web companies, they might aspirationally want to create a faster website, but they then they're not built on the same platform that you've created. Maybe you can just chat about that for a second.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

Yeah, the platform that we use is called TrueSpeed. And what makes TrueSpeed kind of unique is that it's what we call headless or decoupled. And most platforms that are out there, like WordPress, are what we call coupled, meaning the front end of the website and the back end of the website are seamlessly stitched together. Every time you click on a link on the front end, it has to access the database, locate data, return data, and then ultimately serve that data up to the user. Where a decoupled platform, you know, something that runs like USA Today, Apple, Walmart, that they're all choosing this type of technology is not reliant on that database connection. When you build a page in a headless CMS, it posts that content. And when you click around in the front, there is no call into a database, or at least a very abbreviated version call into the database. Yeah. So speed is absolutely amazing. When you can click around a website and see websites load in milliseconds as opposed to six, seven, eight seconds, which is the average load time of a WordPress website, it's it's game changing. And it allows you to do so much from a design standpoint. So, like I tell people, yes, you want video, you want immersive experiences, you want really great photo galleries. But the more video that you use and more galleries that you use, and the more immersive your website becomes, the slower it typically becomes in these older style platforms. Where when you're in a headless system like TrueSpeed, we it could take all of those things. We say, give us all the video, build out that immersive experience because it will impact the conversion rate of your website pretty dramatically.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yeah, I think it's terrific. And it's fun just to go on any one of TrueVolve's websites and play around in any of the photo galleries. And it's, I mean, it's like it just it does, it flies. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

It stuns people, it really does. They're like, How did you do that? It's like, it's a different technology.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah, I want to shift gears a little bit. Yeah, you've worked with a lot of different companies over the course of your career. You've worked in with best in class companies, you've worked with companies that struggle trying to grow. What do you see? Is there a common theme you see amongst the best in class companies out there? What do they do exceptionally well that everybody else could learn from?

SPEAKER_04 7:40

Well, I mean, A, it starts with their training. I mean, their team is trained at a notably higher level. They have people that are very, very senior in some cases or really, really, really well trained. And they look at their data very differently and they look at it in a very open-minded perspective. So it's one of those things that they understand what their conversion rates are, they understand their set rate, their issue rate, their close rate, why things rescind. They just have a better grasp of their data and then they know how to exploit the data. They know what questions to be asking from it. Additionally, their mindset just seems a little bit different. It's a little bit more broad in a lot of ways when you're a more senior manager. So, like we'll run campaigns that run flawlessly for five or six months. They love the lead cost, everything is great. They might have a week that is a little bit off, and they don't just come look at us. They say, what else changed inside of my business that might be affecting what's different? Yeah. So they they they take just a different, broader approach to how they look at their business.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah, I also think one of the, and it's one of the risks for companies that often a company doesn't necessarily trust the data that the business is providing. And so they don't trust the data. And it could be anything from, gosh, I know our financials say we're making money, but are we really making money? And people are always worried about do they have enough cash on hand? And this turns into all kinds of other problems. A lot of times companies might have excess cash on hand, but they don't know how to deploy it because they don't know if the amount of cash they have is enough. You know, the other challenge people have, and I again, I run around and speak at conferences all the time, and I always like to ask the room how many of you know you need to hire a key individual in your business, but you're afraid to take on the overhead? And you know, the vast majority of hands go up in the room. It's just another example of if an organization trusts their data and can properly forecast their business and then hit those forecasted targets with a high level of certainty, bringing on the next candidate that's going to help you grow your business becomes a much easier decision. So I think that's I think that's a really valid point that you brought up, Chris. It is, it is not just about the data, it's it's being able to act on it as well.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Right. And understanding the levers that you could or should be pulling through that process. I mean, what's interesting about our space is that companies don't know where to start in a lot of cases. They they hear something about AI and they start there, or they hear something about Google Ads or Facebook ads or organic search, and they they lump it all together in some cases and they say, Well, it's my digital bucket. Well, those are all very distinct buckets within that larger container. And understanding where to throttle, what will get you the least expensive lead over longer periods of time, what provides stability, what's not as open to a market fluctuation as it as it relates to the cost of that specific lead. So really understanding what levers to pull in when is something that a lot of companies are really missing out on right now.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah, and sometimes look, sometimes the the company A might get a hundred leads and treat them one way, and company B might get a hundred leads and treat them totally different. And it's not just a matter of gee, it's the call center's fault. It's really it could be it could be a call center function, it could be a technology function, it could be a scripting function, it could be a sales model function. And that's by the way, what I love about the whole true coach philosophy is that it's it's it's not a matter of providing somebody more leads, it's about how do we get them to be a better organization so they can process more leads in a better way.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Right. And you know, we actually have actual examples of that. So one of our other owners, Vince Nardo, uh, was on one of the phones, was on a phone call with one of our members, and they just had a rescission rate and they could rescision problem. They could not figure out why this was happening. And I think it took Vince about 30 minutes to say, well, you're texting them at the worst possible time. You're texting them right before they're about to run this appointment, and it's too easy to break up with you via text.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

So even small changes like that change the entire outlook of a campaign. So, I mean, it that type of knowledge and expert expertise is just absolutely invaluable. And that's that's why we wanted this. I mean, TrueVolve is about solving problems above all else. You know, I would jokingly say that digital marketing companies are really, really good at building really, really slow websites really, really slowly. Um, like it's something that was talked about in the previous podcast was you know, they the digital agency hands you a lead and says, good luck. I hope you get it. I hope this works out for you, with no additional support beyond handing off that lead. So, I mean, in my opinion, it's such a powerful program to really understand how to leverage that every single part of your marketing will affect your lead cost, no matter what, down to a text sent out at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Right. And and by no means should TrueVolve be your only lead source. You need a variety of lead sources that work exceptionally well. And again, part of TrueCoach isn't just telling you how to how to manage a paid search campaign better. It's it's how do you do better face-to-face marketing, or how do you, you know, how do you work a home show or you know, all these sorts of things. I think because I I uh we all believe that the better the business becomes, the better it is for everybody. It's a true win-win. So I want to ask you a question, though. I want to go down a different rabbit hole. You know, one of the challenges I see in speaking to a lot of companies is they rely on third-party lead providers, lead aggregators, and those sorts of things as part of their mix. Now, I'm a big believer that you should have a third-party lead provider in your mix as a as an aggregator if you if you have the right systems and processes to treat them properly, right? I mean, if you if you don't have a call center, don't use a lead aggregator. But if you have a call center, it should be part of your mix. But where I see companies getting stuck is that it has become such a big part of their mix that, and because they're non-branded campaigns, they're always chasing the next non-branded lead and they're not stopping and taking time to build their own brand. And because they don't have a brand that's built, they need to buy more lead aggregators. How do companies get out of that rut? Is that something you've seen? How what advice do you give to people on that?

SPEAKER_04 13:33

So you definitely want to be diversified in your lead flow. And a lot of the programs that you we talk about are owned programs. So you have earned assets and owned assets, is the way that we look at it. An owned asset would be your own SEO, your own paid media program, which for it to be on your own, to be clear, you have to own these campaigns. You have to own your Google business listing campaigns. You want something that you have complete and total control over. You also want to augment that, obviously, with lead aggregators, but you have to understand that could go away in a second. I mean, it almost happened to a lot of us with the TCPA and the CCPA laws changing to some extent. I mean, imagine if that had taken full effect and where that would have left a lot of companies. And honestly, when that was going on, we were getting just inundated with people calling us because they were in a panic. Don't wait to be in a panic with your lead flow. You have to be diversified right out of the gate. And again, you know, you kind of mentioned call center and tech stack. It is absolutely critical. I see a lot of companies comparing themselves or making improper comparisons to their company that works with us compared to another company that might work with us. The two tech stacks and how they follow up their scripting, their methodology, all of those things could be wildly different, and they will see a wildly different result in a lot of cases. So, I mean, I think what you're saying is is 100% true. You want to be diversified, you want to use some lead aggregators, but you want owned assets and all of that as well. You have to own a chunk of your marketing. And by the way, there's value in that. So when these companies think about exiting their business, that is something that you have value in to whoever might be acquiring you because you own that asset.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah, that's that's a great point. I also find it interesting that in our last podcast with Eric Bonner, we were chatting about business disciplines is one of the topics. And I think one of the core disciplines in a business is that no single lead source should ever be 20 more than 20% of your business. Because if it ever does go away, you know, look, you and I have seen it when when Home Depot and outdoor living, a lot of companies built their businesses through big box stores and outdoor living. And then one day they decided they're out of that game, they're not doing that anymore. And it was it was catastrophic for a lot of companies. So I just think it's good business discipline, you know, don't you?

SPEAKER_04 15:47

A hundred percent. That diversity is critical. I mean, these things can change. I mean, technically Google can change as well. And people would come to me and say, Well, doesn't Google change their algorithm all the time? Yes, there are changes to the algorithm. That does happen. But when they update the algorithm, it's they're not redefining what's relevant. Yeah. I mean, that's the goal of their algorithm, is to, you know, serve the most relevant results that are out there. So they're typically smaller changes that affect people doing things that they should not be doing to begin with. So diversity is absolutely critical if you're going to be scaling your business.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah. So I think just about every company can relate to the pain point of rising lead costs across the industry, right? Is that is that here to stay? I mean, what what what's causing it? Is it here to stay? What's what's going on there?

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Well, I mean, there's always ebbs and flows in lead costs. I mean, you can utilize a tool called Google Trends that will show you how the volume goes up and down on specific topics like replacement windows or bathtub remodeling. So there's an ebb and flow that comes with it. But to think that it's going to come down over a long period of time is probably not a logical line of thought. And what's interesting to me is that these home improvement companies measure everything. They know their set rate, their issue rate, their run rate, their rescision rate, all of these different things. They can talk to you about that, like that. But what they don't know is the conversion rate of their own website, which again, your website is the center of your marketing universe. Everything that you do sends traffic to your website. So any agency that says TV isn't driving traffic there is not being honest with you. And when we ask, do you know the conversion rate of your current website? They're like, no. So when we look at that, we're like, well, maybe it's 2%, maybe it's 5%. We have some people as high as 14% of their traffic. In fact, we work with one really large company that we took them from a 9% conversion rate, which was absolutely amazingly high, and brought them to 14%. So look at that lever that they just pulled. I mean, they drastically increased the amount of leads they're getting and drastically reduced the cost. So conversion rate of the website should be measured like anything else that you measure in your business. Yeah. You should make the argument, it should be measured first because it's the tip of the spear. It's the first engagement with your company in most cases.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Right. Is it the absolute top of the funnel? And if you can change that, all the other metrics change along with it.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

The results they absolutely do. And that's one thing that we're so focused on as an agency. We actually have a team of people on staff that all they do is test. They build out different call to actions. What offers work the best? Is it a no-no? Is it a dollar amount off? Is it a percentage off? Where should the call to actions be placed? When do I open the form? What images do they engage with? These people test absolutely everything. Because when you stack these little small wins on top of one another, it's this massive difference, you know, at the end of the day, to all of your marketing that you're running. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

So let's go down another rabbit hole for a second. There's uh there's this whole big philosophy out there that companies want to show up on Chat GPT if somebody's searching for them. And then there's these philosophies that well, it's not the same as SEO. You need a different type of optimization. Chris, where do you come down on that?

SPEAKER_04 19:01

So I mean, it's it's definitely very important to be optimizing for A for AI engines. We call it GEO or generative optimization or AEO, AI optimization. So it needs to be part of what most people are looking at. But there's an order to everything that you should be doing. You need to start by making sure that you're running some Google ads because that's the most proactive person that's out there. There's they're shoppers. You want to make sure that you're ranking in Google Maps or your Google Business Listings. You want an organic ranking campaign, the free side of search, because that will deliver you consistency at a very, very low cost. And then you want to look at these AI engines as well. I mean, it's important to understand that ChatGPT specifically is about 2% of all search. So when you break down that 2%, you have a lot of kids cheating on college term papers or kids getting help with their homework, people asking questions that have nothing to do with home improvement search. And it's not to say that home improvement search is not happening there, because it definitely is happening to some extent. But what's interesting is the analytics don't match the rhetoric. The end when we go in and we see how many leads actually came from ChatGPT or these AI engines, it is a very, very small fraction. And even the AI overview in Google, when you conduct a search for something that's highly actionable, like replacement window company, bathroom remodeling company, it's pretty rare that the AI overview even fires in Google at that point. And the reason is Google's gonna be in conflict with itself at that point. So what that means is Google's ad or Google's stated mission is to organize the world's information, make it universally accessible and useful. What the real goal is, is to make as much money as I possibly can, cram as many advertisers as they possibly can into a crowded space. That's the real goal. If they serve an AI answer to who's the best home improvement company for bathroom remodeling, then they can't sell the click in Google Ads. And I'm not saying that they're not going to figure this out because the people at Google are incredibly intelligent and they will, and you need to be ready for it. But there's an order in how you should be marketing your website. And it typically doesn't start with AI optimization. The other big thing to know when it comes to optimizing your website from an AI perspective is that it tends to generate traffic on a national level. Like who do I, when do I, who should, you know, why is my my my uh roof peeling back? All of these different questions tend to drive national traffic. Most home improvement companies, if not 95% of them, are operating in a somewhat limited basis or limited geography, I should say. So even if they do begin to rank in on those AI answers, more than likely you cannot convert those things. We actually did an analysis of someone that went deep into the AI side that really spent a lot of time, money, and effort going after the GEO and the AEO side of things. And what we saw was exactly what I just talked about traffic coming in on an And a conversion rate that averaged less than 1%. So it's important. You have to be ready for it now. We do a lot of it. So I certainly don't mean to sound like I'm understating it because it's it's very important, but there's an order to everything that you do from a digital perspective.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah, I think that's great. Every time you speak, I learn something new. And it was interesting. You were speaking at a conference a couple of months ago in Florida. I think it was Accelerate Life. And I didn't know this. A lot of companies put are encouraged by their web company to do blogging, to do blogs. And you you brought up a point about blogs that it doesn't necessarily isn't the best for local. Explain that to everybody, would you?

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Right. And like I I'm probably just meeting a lot of you. Some of you I probably know. Don't believe me. Go out to Google and can type in a search for whatever keyword you want that's actionable. So, like replacement window company, bathroom remodeling company, replacement bathtub, roofing contractor, and see how many times a blog ranks on the first page of Google. And it'll be easy to tell because it'll say blog before the URL or blog just after the URL. And what you're going to find is the answer is near zero. They don't rank very well in search engines. Now, if you wanted to rank on something like when is the best time to replace my roof? Uh, how do I fix my own windows? Then you will see blog content ranking really well. But we don't want them fixing their own roof or their own windows. We want them to hire us to do that job. So knowing that blogs are not a bad thing, but they have their place. Blogs do perform a little bit better on the AI side of things. So you will see us create some blogs that are long form content, 1250 words in length. But typically, when we do that, we have an AI-specific goal in doing that. So the biggest problems that blogs have is that A, they don't rank really well. And when they do rank well, to your the point that you made earlier, it's typically driving traffic from out of territory again. So it's one of those things that got popularized by my industry. I used to tell people it's the wrong answer for the right problem, if I said that right. Yeah. So everyone knows you have to have content on your website. So the easiest thing to do 15 years ago is to smack a blog on your website, and then the agency just starts writing these blog, these blogs that aren't specific to who you are, what you do, and where you do it. The three W's of optimization.

unknown 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

So it was kind of the shortcut that got popularized by agencies 15, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Well, and I think what you have always been great at, you know, pre pre-true volve. I I worked with you for many, many years in my businesses, right? And all my different businesses. And I you you you have found the right balance between yes, we need conversions, but also we need to be able to tell your brand story on your site too. And and I think that's so important for people. You know, we go back to that whole lead aggregator thing and telling your brand story. Look, it's it my feeling is that look, if if everything is always about advertising, it's always about half-off installation or save 25% today. It's kind of like you and I go for a walk around the block. Okay. We've been going for this walk for the past three months. This one day we're walking around the block, and all of a sudden there's uh, you know, there's this barking dog. It scares the heck out of you, right? The first time you hear it. And maybe even for the first three days. But after we've gone around this block a bunch of times with this barking dog, we tend to tune out the barking dog. And I think that's the risk of just having direct response marketing as everything you do. It becomes this barking dog, where I think brand and brand story, it's more about having conversations with the consumer. How do you make an impact in your community? How do you tell your story? I think it makes the direct response side of the business work a whole lot better.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Yeah, it's, you know, what I tell people all the time is you are more than the sum of the products that you offer. I can get showers, bathrooms, I can get a lot of the products that our members sell from Lowe's Home Depot or Menards. So pulling in and telling your story consistently, how you're involved in the community, what charities you actually care about, spotlighting the team members. You know, this is the personality behind your business. And that's what people are looking for. I mean, they're about to invite you into your their home in a lot of cases, which, you know, unless you're trolling Craigslist late at night, that's not a common thing. It's not something that people are comfortable with. They want to know who you're dealing with.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:16

So they want to see your faces, and that story needs to be told.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

And more importantly, it needs to be told consistently. So, like so many times, the about us page, A, so many times the about us page is about your manufacturers. That's not who you are. Uh, that's actually the wrong way to go. You need to put a face to your organization. But the about us page or information is relegated to the about us page on your website where we tell people that story needs to be pulled forward into the bulk of the pages of your website. So, one thing that you'll see in our websites is that there's always an about us section on the homepage. Because I want to tell one continuous story on the homepage from top to bottom. Like the goal of your website is to abbreviate the conversion process for a lot of the visitors coming to your website and not elongate it. That is specifically true for your branded traffic. So anyone that knew who your company was before and they searched for the name of your company or they clicked on a paid ad with the name of your company that came in from a TV show, from TV or a home show. That's branded traffic. Abbreviate the conversion process. I have data that knows that the conversion rates go up roughly 3% when you do that. So let them convert on the website. Let them eat. Just push them through that process.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah, I think that's all fantastic stuff. You know, you give the you give the viewers of this so much to, you know, so many things to think about in their business and and ways to get better. And by the way, over your right shoulder, I happen to like your taste in books. That's pretty good. It's an excellent book. Chris, I really want to thank you so much for getting on here and sharing your story with people. And, you know, you're pat you're certainly passionate and highly knowledgeable. And I think companies would do well if they don't know you already to have a call with you.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

So yeah, we we would love to help anyone. I mean, this is a passion project for us. I mean, as a lot of people know, the ownership group of this company, we are here because we want to be here, not because we have to be here. This is our passion, and a lot of this is us this is how we give back to the community that has given us so much. So we really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Thanks, Chris.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Thank you. You've been tapped into the True Coach Podcast from TrueVolve, home improvement and home services experts helping professionals like you get better results faster. Subscribe and follow on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts for more expert insights. From digital marketing to business coaching, TrueVolve is dedicated to helping your business grow. Learn more and have your light bulb moment at TrueVolve.com.