Supporting Neurodivergent Parents: Navigating the Perinatal Journey with Maigan Birse

In this episode, we explore how to best support neurodivergent individuals through the perinatal period, from pregnancy to postpartum with Maigan Birse of Encircled Therapy. Learn more about her in her bio:

"Maigan is a registered psychologist with over 17 years of experience working in a variety of mental health settings, including healthcare, non-profit, and private practice settings. Maigan's clientele over the years includes adults, children, adolescents, couples, and families. Maigan completed her Masters of Applied Counselling Psychology degree from the University of Calgary in 2012, and has been working as a registered psychologist in the province of Alberta for over twelve years.

Maigan is passionate about helping families and individuals thrive! Since becoming a mom herself (to both her son and twin daughters), Maigan has noticed the important role that therapy can play in helping parents and their young ones get through the ups and downs that life can bring, particularly in the perinatal period (pregnancy, postpartum) and the early years of parenting. She also has experienced first-hand the insight that can come with understanding more about our own, our child's, and/or partner's uniquely amazing brain.

Maigan utilizes various modalities in her work with clients, including Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, and Emotion-Focused Therapy, plus has additional training in perinatal mental health, parent-child attachment work, formalized psychological assessments, and neurodiversity."

@encircled_therapy

www.encircledtherapy.ca

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Inner Solutions Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Heil. I own and operate Inner Solutions, a private practice clinic located in Calgary, Canada. Inner Solutions seeks to understand and help our clients by providing empirically supported treatments and evidence-based practices with compassion and expertise. This podcast will provide you with information regarding complex psychological conditions as well as treatments that are available. And Megan is here to talk to us today about how to support neurodiverse individuals during the perinatal period. Megan, I'm so happy to have you today. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I'm excited for this conversation. So I think I just want to dive right in. And I'm curious if this is such a niche conversation, such a specialty, what made you want to specialize in this area?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, um, good question. I well, I'm a psychologist, so I've always had an interest in just kind of understanding people for as long as I can actually remember. I've just always been really interested in psychology and brain development and different diagnoses and just really understanding people more. So I started out kind of early in my career working more with children. That was kind of my area of focus for a very long time, children and teenagers. But kind of as I went along doing this work, I the more that I kind of did it, I realized there's such a huge part of it that actually involves working with parents. It's not just working with the child in isolation. A huge, huge part of how a child is doing mentally is how their parents or their family is doing, and vice versa. But if a child's not doing well, that affects a parent. Obviously, if their child's, you know, struggling in school or struggling with anxiety or sensory sensitivities or whatever it might be, then obviously that parent is really impacted and wants their child to do well as well. So I just saw how much the two were really enmeshed and interconnected. And then I became a parent myself. So I then realized, oh my goodness, I'm doing this in real life. I have my own baby that I'm taking care of, and I've gone through this huge change in my own life. And I just realized how much my life and my mental health and um executive functioning and all these pieces of my life were affected so much by having a baby. You know, my sleep, my hormones, my whole structure of my day had changed. There were so many more demands on me, a sensory overload. There were just all these pieces that were really affected. And I just realized how much a person's mental health can change and be affected after they have a baby. And then also if there is some neurodiversity in that parent or in that partner, they're just a lot more likely to also be affected in that perinatal period.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

That's true. It it's we think a lot about uh mom in that perinatal period, but it's true. I mean, there's also, there's also another parent potentially, right? Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. But if they have their own neurodiversity, then that's also going to have an impact. That's um something that I, yeah, I mean, it makes sense. It's not something that I've ever thought about like concretely, but that absolutely. And it's interesting just sitting back, Megan, and just listening to what you have to say. I I'm also a mom. I've got in this moment, I've got a 12-year-old and a and a nine-year-old, I guess depending on when people are listening to this podcast. But today, as we're recording, that's what they are. And I feel like parenting has gotten easier, I'd say, in some ways, at this age. Like it comes with its own set of challenges, but it's different because I would say I'm coming out of that point where it's not quite as sensory as it was when they're young and you know, it's it's loud and your sleep is being impacted, and uh their food and your food and they're climbing all over you, right? Like there's so much sensory stimulation that happens in those first few years.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yes. Oh my goodness. And I don't think people are necessarily prepared for that. And I don't know if there's a way to necessarily be prepared for that, but that was such a surprise to me. Because most people are, especially before maybe having their first baby, usually it's just them or them with a partner. Um, and you're able to live a fairly conducive lifestyle that works for you and your needs. And then a baby comes into the picture, and just even that sensory piece alone can be so different. There's a crying baby, there's, you know, toys that make a ton of noise, there's if you're breastfeeding or pumping, there's even just those sensations, you might be totally touched out by having a little baby or a little child all over you all day. So yeah, even just the sensory piece alone is is often a huge um surprise for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, exactly. And I think unless somebody has been, I'll say like taught about it or like has so has had someone else in their life speak to them, be like, hey, like just heads up, this is something to be paying attention to. Then I don't think a lot of parents really think about it until you're just like you're in it. Yeah, all those pieces. I remember it was such a surprise for me and my partner. Yeah. Yeah, us too. Like it just, it just wasn't something that we thought about until like it's happening, and then it's like, oh my gosh, right? My nervous system. I I would like to define a few things just because I'm I'm cognizant that we're using some words that people may not necessarily be aware of. So my first one is when we're referring to perinatal, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, that's a great question. So we often um phrase the perinatal period as a time during pregnancy and then about a year postpartum after giving birth to a baby.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Okay, perfect. Yeah, so it's really during that period specifically when again, sensory is yeah, it's it's so extreme, right? When when baby is that that young that we're really referring to. And then also we're we're talking about, we've thrown the word neurodiversity around a little bit, uh, neurodiversity, neurodivergence. Would we be able to define that as well, please?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Definitely, yeah. So the term neurodivergent was first coined by um a sociologist, Judy Singer, in about 1998. She used this term to describe the wide spectrum that can occur in brains, brains that have developed a little bit differently than what we would call average. So this could include lots of different things. Um, it might be different diagnoses such as ADHD or autism spectrum disorder, learning disorders and challenges can fall into this spectrum, intellectual giftedness or intellectual disabilities, among many other things as well. That's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

So when it comes to the work that you're doing, I mean, I I think many, most people I think would struggle to some degree during the perinatal period. Like it's not, it's certainly not an easy period, I think, for for anyone. But specifically when somebody has their own neurodiversity, what I'm what I'm hearing and what I'm suspecting is that it comes with its own set of unique, amazing moments and also challenges.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, exactly. Anybody, like I think I kind of mentioned this before, but I think truly anyone who has a baby is surprised by the amounts of challenges and differences and things that come up for them. So it's a it's a universal phenomenon that we're that we're gonna probably struggle in some way after having a baby. And you're right, like there's so many gifts to having a neurodivergent brain and so many amazing things about it, but there are just vulnerabilities that might happen more um in that perinatal period. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Can we talk a little bit about that? How does neurodiversity affect the perinatal period?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so there's kind of lots of different ways that someone might be affected in the perinatal period. And again, absolutely anyone could struggle with these areas. People with neurodivergence just might be more likely to be affected in certain ways. So there's a few things. We've talked a little bit about sensory. Sensory sensitivities can be an aspect of neurodivergence. Um, so people with a neurodivergent brain might just have more uh sensory sensitivities. They might be more sensitive to different things sensory-wise, or they might be sensory-seeking, they might need different ways to help regulate themselves sensory-wise. But oftentimes it is a big surprise when a baby comes along and there are a lot of different sensory triggers that might be popping up for someone. So there's, you know, the crying of the baby, there's those noisy toys, there's those noisy shows if if you have a toddler or someone who might be watching kids' shows. There is that feeling of being touched out if you're holding a baby all day. Um, if you're breastfeeding, there might be, you know, milk or pumping or you're dealing with formula, all these pieces that just might be triggering in some way, sensory-wise, for you. There's other pieces too that are affected. So executive functioning is a term that we use a lot in this field. Executive functioning often refers to kind of a set of skills that help us function or excel in life. And this can include lots of different things. So it could be planning or organizing, um, starting tasks, following through on those tasks, being able to complete them, having motivation, managing impulsivity, having some good time management skills. Lots of things are kind of included in this term of executive functioning. And truly anyone who has given birth and is now taking care of a baby, their executive functioning is probably being affected in some way because there's so many more demands on you and in your life, and you're probably also doing it while sleep-deprived and with some moral stuff going on too. But yeah, again, if someone is neurodiverse, they they might struggle a bit more with some executive functioning. And so they tend to be even more affected when all of a sudden these demands are placed on them. And it can be it could be a really big struggle to kind of manage all those different demands in their life.

unknown 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, there's just so much going on at that time. It's it's really like it, it's so overwhelming, I think, again, for any person. Yeah. And the things that you just mentioned there that just make it harder. Um, things like with the executive functioning, like if someone is already struggling to initiate tasks or sustain tasks or to organize and plan before baby, and then you throw a baby in, which takes up all of your time and energy, and you're not sleeping. And like it's just it's it really is the perfect storm for things to be really hard.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Totally. Yeah. Oh, I I remember like just even the concept of like wake windows and wait when the baby should be sleeping and napping, and uh trying to manage my life around that piece and all the medical appointments that all of a sudden come up with the baby and just all these different pieces that you have to kind of fit into pre-existing life, all the other demands that are on you in life, it can be really, really hard for people.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I it's funny because uh again, this is bringing all the things back when I think about my own uh journey with with my kids when they were in those first uh zero to 12 months and how impacted, absolutely, like not being able to sleep. And and I feel like that just like that alone will it almost like creates executive functioning challenges, even if there weren't any there to begin with. Uh so then I I can only imagine, right, if somebody was already struggling with all that like prior, it's just like it's just gotta be uh exponentially harder than it would have been kind of pre-baby. And again, I don't think enough people talk about this. Like we talk about some things that are hard in when having when having babies, but I really don't think that as a society we do justice to talking about just how difficult it is to continue to function when you're sleep deprived, when you don't have the time to create nutritious meals for yourself, all those things. And then you throw neurodiversity on top of it, and it's just it really is so, so challenging.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

For sure. And you're right, we don't talk about this enough in society. Even I think back to like, you know, birth and baby classes or kind of preparing for baby, like this would be so helpful, I think, to keep even have this piece included, whether whether someone in the class is neurodivergent or not, but just to know about these pieces a little bit more and how it's gonna affect you, I think could be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, not just about like let's learn how to change a diaper. I think like, of course, that's important too. But I I really do think that if someone has said to me, look, you're gonna struggle in ways that you you can't even imagine, right? Um that period and just trying to make it just a little bit more normalized. I think that would be a step forward. And then also then needing to um normalize how when there is neurodivergence, that it's it's also again, it's going to just look, it's going to look different. And yeah, there's just so much that we could do as a society, I think, to better prepare parents for what's to come.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, for sure. There's also kind of the social demands that can be placed um in this perinatal period. So I think this is often sometimes a little bit of a surprise for people too, just how our lives change socially a little bit. So someone might have been in kind of a a job that really suited them well. You know, maybe they really enjoy lots of stimulation in being busy and being social. I often think to a lot of my clients who maybe have ADHD and they were, you know, kind of really thriving in their lives before having a baby. And then all of a sudden they're, you know, at home alone, large majority of the day, not seeing a whole lot of people. They're busy, but they're busy in different ways, and it might not be ways that, you know, are really suited to them. So this kind of change in socialization of maybe not seeing people, not talking to people, or vice versa. You know, maybe there's kind of people coming out of the word work wanting to visit, wanting to see baby. Um, you're expected to go to all these appointments and baby classes. And for someone uh who's neurodivergent who maybe struggles socially, um, this can actually be a really difficult thing too. It's a it's a huge change in kind of how your life looks socially as well. So true.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah. That and again, things that that people just don't talk about, right? So I love that you're talking about this and providing some some information and education for for people, and especially if there's maybe soon to be parents that might be listening, right? Just to be able to plant a seed in their brains about how life might be impacted. I think that this really does a great service to people to be able to just, yeah, to create a different level of preparation. So I'm curious about something. When when we I wanna, I'm gonna change topics completely. When I think about neurodiversity, I know that's something that definitely is a part of what what happens for a lot of people is that they they tend to mask. And I suspect that it's maybe a little bit more challenging to mask during that perinatal period because all those vulnerabilities are happening. Would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yes, definitely. Yeah. She's uh the co-owner of our practice and a friend of mine. Um, she spoke to this really well as well in her in her podcast about just, you know, these these ways of functioning in life. We we kind of go through life and we find ways to to compensate or to function or to cope with difficult things. And then we we might get into a really vulnerable period of life. And oftentimes perinatal is a very vulnerable time in our lives. And all of a sudden, maybe our strategies just aren't working for us. Maybe we can't use them. You know, again, we've we've got the lack of sleep, we've got hormones, hormone changes happening, and then we've got all these different demands uh placed on us, and we might not be able to use strategies or coping skills or ways of functioning that we were able to before. So oftentimes, whether someone's maybe even diagnosed as neurodivergent or not, maybe they suspect for themselves or maybe they don't know. But oftentimes in the perinatal period, all of a sudden things can just become a lot more obvious, right? And so that's when we kind of talk about, you know, things becoming unmasked or becoming more obvious. Someone who's in this really vulnerable phase is all of a sudden noticing these things coming up for them. Maybe, like I mentioned, their executive functioning is really, really struggling. Whereas before they were able to manage that a bit better. Maybe they weren't, maybe they weren't doing amazing with that. Maybe they wondered for themselves if they were neurodivergent, but then they get into this really vulnerable phase of life and it becomes a lot more apparent to them.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's just it becomes impossible to to mask when those vulnerabilities are happening in that way. And I wonder, so you you think um sometimes it would be that people might be querying, like they they know that maybe there might be some neurodivergence there, but they haven't necessarily, for whatever reason, hadn't decided to go forward with treatment or or diagnosis before. I'm just curious, what would be some of the things that how would unmasking maybe present? Like what would somebody see in themselves if they are finding that they're unable to continue to mask during this period of time?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yeah, I work with a lot of clients who maybe over the years have wondered, uh, you know, and then maybe there's been different things throughout their lives where they've they've wondered if they're neurodivergent or kind of guessed at this, but maybe there's never been, they've never gone through getting like a formal diagnosis. But then they kind of get into this perinatal period and they notice. I hear a lot of clients say, like, I'm completely overwhelmed. I don't even know where to begin with things. I have a lot of clients who feel like they can't even really function. You know, those basic functioning tasks are feeling too hard for them. Maybe they're not able to kind of self-soothe, they're not able to use sensory strategies to help themselves. Sometimes this can even look like autistic burnout. So it's it's really not being able to do much. They might be isolating themselves. You know, they're taking care of their baby, but just other tasks are just really going by the wayside, and they're really not able to take care of themselves in that moment. Um, so they're neglecting their own needs, even just basic stuff, like maybe having nutritious meals, getting out for a walk, interacting with other people, all those pieces might just feel like too, too much in that moment. And it can be quite obvious all of a sudden, okay, I'm really not doing well. And and why might this be? Um, there's also kind of aspects to this of maybe your partner might be neurodivergent, and maybe, you know, they're not doing great with this change, and all of a sudden you're noticing these things maybe becoming a bit more obvious in your partner, whereas maybe before it wasn't as obvious. And so that can be a big struggle too, of just, okay, my partner's actually really not doing well right now. They're in a really vulnerable spot in this perineal period as well.

unknown 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

So being able to find a query for either partner whether there's there's something else that might be uh contributing to the way that they're feeling during this period. Again, knowing that it's is normal for everyone to struggle. And if someone is struggling to the point where functioning is is now like really a struggle, then that might be the thing that gets them to wonder is there possibly some neurodiversity that's going on here as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, definitely. And I always like to talk with my clients about even just the aspect of like the mental load of parenthood that comes into play here. So we know that oftentimes if it's if it's a heterosexual relationship, it tends to be the woman that takes on a lot of this mental load. Not always, but oftentimes that can happen, uh especially if they're one kind of the one on the parental leave. And so taking on all these pieces of, you know, appointments, um, baby schedule, the housework, all these mental pieces that they need to kind of keep in their brain and keep going. Um and so I often like to talk with this about clients too. You know, just because maybe you're struggling with functioning, maybe you just have too much of that mental load on your plate as well. It doesn't necessarily mean you're neurodivergent. It might be that there's a huge imbalance of the mental load that is falling on you, as opposed to maybe if there is a partner involved. So I always want to decipher that too, because that's a big part of it as well. If this mental load is feeling um not equitable, that can also be a huge impact too.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

So true. Yes, it sometimes can be more environmental than something that's happening internally for us. Yes. Someone wanted to figure that out. Like, let's say they're kind of they're playing with this idea of like, oh, like is this something that's going on like for me, right? So it's like maybe that I am neurodivergent versus its environment, and I'm not really sure. How would they figure that out? Like, what would be the next step for them?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, great question. So some people, like I mentioned, choose to not get. Formal diagnosis. Maybe they've wondered about themselves over the years. But you know what? They decide, you know, I don't know if I need a formal diagnosis in place. Um, I might just go uh to see a therapist and maybe work on some strategies. I might be able to get some really good tools under my belt to help me function a little bit better. But other people find getting a bit of insight and maybe going through getting a formal diagnosis can be really enlightening. It can be really helpful. Sometimes it really validates, oh, yeah, like I had all these experiences throughout my life. These things were really hard for me, and I never really had a reason for why. And so actually kind of going through a formal process to maybe find out more about their brain can be a really helpful thing for a lot of people. So there's a few ways to go. Some family doctors, depending on what the concern is, might feel comfortable exploring it with people. Um so some family doctors feel good about kind of exploring ADHD, others don't feel like that's within their realm. And so they might refer to like a psychiatrist. And then there's also psychologists who specialize in formal assessment, and um they can go through a formal assessment experience with someone to explore their brain more and their struggles and also their strengths and see if maybe they meet criteria for any formal diagnoses.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, definitely. I think both directions are valid that some people really want the diagnosis or the confirmation or disconfirmation that's important to them for many different reasons. And lots of people are okay with just kind of that inner knowing of saying, like, I'm I'm pretty sure this fits for me. And maybe they they don't feel like a diagnosis is something that's needed or accessible at the time. So I imagine one way or another, regardless of whether there is a formal diagnosis, I suspect treatment is available.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's lots of help and support out there, and definitely getting access to therapy can be so, so helpful during this phase of life. Um, some people find medication as well can be a really helpful kind of piece of the puzzle. Um, so that can also be something that could be discussed with a doctor or psychiatrist that they're seeing. And then also just really getting supports in place to help them during this phase of life, whether that's formal supports or informal supports, you know, maybe it's, you know, I'm really struggling with my time management. I'm really struggling with, you know, getting food on the table or getting food into myself. I'm gonna call up a friend and see if they can help with some meal delivery, or, you know, I'm I'm not doing well with house cleaning like that is just completely going by the wayside right now. Maybe I need to hire someone for this phase of life to really help with those pieces. So it could look like different supports that could be really helpful. And then I often talk about the sensory piece, knowing, are you being affected sensory-wise? Is this a part of your struggle? Are there things you can do to regulate yourself from it from a sensory standpoint? Um, so maybe it's try playing around with some different things, and and a really good therapist could help with this, or an occupational therapist can also really help with this, of kind of experimenting with different strategies that might be really helpful sensory-wise.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

I could see that being very helpful. Would you be able to give us a couple of examples? If you had somebody come to you seeking therapy to be able to help with this period of time, this perinatal period, what would be maybe just one or two strategies for sensory that you might propose to them that they try?

SPEAKER_00 25:41

So oftentimes it is just even exploring a little bit more, okay, what is actually affecting you sensory-wise? Because oftentimes people aren't even necessarily fully aware of how affected they are in this perinatal phase by the sensory pieces. So it's going through different triggers, noticing, oh wow, I'm actually so affected when I have to listen to my baby cry for an hour. Maybe, maybe I have a refluxy baby or or a colicky baby, and there's a lot of crying, and I notice I'm then really dysregulated if I'm dealing with a crying baby for a really long period of time. So it's really exploring those triggers first with the client. And then yeah, we're gonna play around with some different strategies. So it could be it could be really basic things. It could be like we're gonna create a little sensory toolkit for you to have in your house. These are things that you're gonna use throughout your day. Maybe it's getting some noise-muffling headphones or some loop earbuds. Maybe I'm gonna put those in at different points throughout my day to kind of reduce some of that noise that I'm hearing. Or it's maybe it's a weighted blanket. Maybe that's really comforting to me. And so I'm gonna set aside time, you know, a couple hours into my day where I pull that weighted blanket on and I just have some time to decompress. Uh, or maybe I'm, you know, scheduling into my day every day a time when I have a friend or family member come over, they can take the baby out for a walk. So I have some downtime, some quiet time, and maybe using some sensory strategies during that time as well. All of those things can be quite helpful.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Love that. And I think when these strategies are utilized, each of them, if it takes down our overwhelm by even just a unit or two, that can make such a difference to the overall quality of life that we have in any given day as we're trying to get through this very challenging perinatal period.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Yes. Oh my goodness. Even just, you know, you're right, even if it's just 10 minutes or if it's just taking things down a notch in intensity, it can make a huge difference for how the parents are doing, and vice versa, then how the baby's doing and how everyone in the household is doing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Is there anything else, Megan, that I haven't already asked you about that you think would be really important for our audience to hear?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

I think just also recognizing the strengths of neurodivergence and the gifts of neurodivergence. We often focus a lot on these are the struggles, these are the things that are feeling hard, these are the ways that I'm not doing well or not functioning well. And a big part of me working with clients is actually recognizing actually, there's so many gifts here, there's so many strengths here. Let's not just focus on the deficits or the struggles. For sure, we for sure we need to talk about those things too, and to do some really good planning and coping and strategizing and learning about those things. But if we can also really focus on those amazing strengths that come with everybody's unique brains and celebrate those things and also get a community of people around clients who maybe have similar diagnoses or maybe they're different diagnoses or different ways of functioning. But that can be hugely helpful and supportive as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, I think that there's so much to be said about that that neurodiversity is not it's not bad. It just means that there's a different, it's a different brain than what the majority of the population has. But it's not, it's not a bad brain, it's not a wrong brain, it's not any any of those things. It's that I often think about it as it's a brain that society just wasn't necessarily geared towards, like how society has created itself in today's world is not necessarily geared towards a neurodivergent brain. But that doesn't make the brain bad, right? If it had been a different society, then uh lots of like having neurodivergence would be something that is just absolutely there's so many positives to it and and and celebrate it. So I I think it's kind of interesting to think about it as that, that if society had gone in a different direction, then I don't even know that we'd be sitting here talking about neurodivergence. It would just be something that just happens. And um, yeah, I mean, that maybe there'd still be struggles about it, but I I just think it it would just be a different topic altogether. Um that's uh that's for a different going on a soapbox, but yeah, I agree. I don't think that I think it's something that we need to celebrate rather than looking at it as always being something that you know the negatives.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

I completely agree. And I think truly every single person in the world has a slightly different brain. So, you know, like if we're talking about neurodivergence, like truly every single brain is so different and unique and amazing. And and yes, oh my goodness, let's celebrate that. But I completely agree too that our the way our society set is set up is for a certain type of brain. Yeah. And and there's so many ways that this could go differently depending on how societies are set up for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like that's gonna be a different podcast episode at some point. That's well, like so much to say on that topic, but we'll we'll keep it to this one whole for today. Okay, well, Megan, this was amazing. I just I so appreciate your time and your wisdom. And for anyone who hasn't yet listened to Megan's co-owner of Encircled Therapy, her up, the podcast episode that Christy Orr did, then please circle back and listen because there's lots that's that Christy said on this topic and um on similar but different. Um, but they they both are the co-owners of Encircled Therapy. So lots and lots of wisdom between the two of them. So, Megan, just thank you very much and thank you to everybody who has been listening. We will catch you next episode. Thanks so much for listening. If you found today's episode helpful, please go ahead and leave us a review. And you can also follow the show so that you don't miss out on any future episodes. For more information about us, you can check out our website, www.innersolutions.ca