Untangling from Thoughts: Cognitive Defusion with Bradley Lewis

In this episode, Bradley Lewis from ReThink Well Psychology unpacks the concept of cognitive defusion, a core Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) skill. Learn how separating from unhelpful thoughts can create space for clarity, flexibility, and values-based living. Read Brad's bio below to learn more about him:

My name is Bradley Lewis, and I am a Registered Psychologist serving Calgary and Airdrie, Alberta. I’m a born and raised Calgarian who still gets shocked when it’s -30 outside. I completed a master’s in social psychology in 2017 and a master’s in counselling psychology in 2020. I previously worked with Inner Solutions for several years before moving into my own private practice in downtown Calgary. 

In my practice I mostly work with people struggling with chronic anxiety and burnout, especially related to the workplace. I also work with folks with trauma and anyone who would like more skills in their tool box to regulate their emotions.  

My training expertise is in Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DBT), Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT), Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing (EMDR), mindfulness-based modalities, and Solution-Focused Therapy. 

I am a happy husband of 9 years and a happy fur-father of 5 years. I would consider myself an avid reader of both fiction and non-fiction. I also love movies and I try my best to catch most of the new releases. In general, I would say that I am a deeply curious person, and I believe this represents both my personal and professional interests.

www.rethinkwellpsychology.net | @rethinkwellpsychology

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Inner Solutions Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Heil. I own and operate Inner Solutions, a private practice clinic located in Calgary, Canada. Inner Solutions seeks to understand and help our clients by providing empirically supported treatments and evidence-based practices with compassion and expertise. This podcast will provide you with information regarding complex psychological conditions as well as treatments that are available. Hello all. Welcome back to the Inner Solutions Podcast. I'm Jess Heil, and I'm here today with Bradley Lewis, who is a registered psychologist who serves Calgreen area. Bradley has a private practice called Rethink Well Psychology, and he specializes in offering DBT-informed therapy as well as CBT and EMDR. Today, Brad is going to be talking to us about a topic called cognitive diffusion. Hello, Brad.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

I'm doing well today. I'm so excited that you're here with us today. I'm excited about this topic. I think let's dive right in. What is cognitive diffusion?

SPEAKER_01 1:11

So cognitive diffusion is essentially an approach that gets us to relate to our thoughts differently. So, you know, for folks who maybe have had experience with CBT in their therapy journey, um, CBT typically looks at, you know, our thoughts and how we might make them more flexible, see if they reflect kind of the world more accurately and all that kind of stuff. Where cognitive diffusion is more of we don't necessarily try to change our thoughts or engage with them. We're just trying to build a different relationship. Kind of like the the name says, it's about defusing from our thoughts. Obviously, you can think of if you're feeling really anxious, really overwhelmed, or even really depressed, you would say you're probably really fused with your thoughts, right? Say it's uh a catastrophe, you're expecting something horrible to happen, or your brain's just going on those what-ifs, what-ifs, what-ifs, kind of sucked in with your thoughts or hooked by your thoughts. So it's a skill that helps us try to disentangle or be unhooked with our thoughts and kind of take a observer position towards our thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I can see that being very helpful to a lot of people because I think sometimes we just get so absorbed in our thoughts and it's easy to have a a dialogue in our brain, right? Of talking to ourselves and and just so many thoughts that are so rapid that the idea that we can separate a bit from our thoughts actually sounds very appealing.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah. I've had clients kind of just refer to it as like it's it's a way to stop fighting with our thoughts.

unknown 2:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Ultimately. Drop dropping the fight with the thoughts ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah, drop that rope.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Yeah. Yeah, love that. Where did the concept of cognitive diffusion come from?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Well, I know it from Act, which is a therapy approach, at least pioneered. I don't know if he invented it, but uh this guy named Russ Harris. And ACT stands for acceptance commitment therapy. And it's part of you know what would be kind of called the the third wave of CBT. So it's actually kind of a cousin of DBT, but it takes more of a mindfulness approach towards our thoughts or our mental health than necessarily like a challenging or trying to change our thoughts kind of approach.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

I can see all this being really beneficial to lots of people to be able to have that separation, to drop that rope, to not be fighting with our thoughts. I'm wondering, Brad, would you be able to give an example of how you might apply cognitive diffusion? So if I was a person that was going to be using the strategy, what might it look like to apply it?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, so there's actually like a number of strategies that you could use. But my my favorite is a meditation called Leaves on a Stream. So cognitive diffusion can be kind of a skill or it can be turned into like a concrete practice. And so the the meditation of leaves on a stream, I found with clients, is uh a nice kind of concrete way of practicing this skill. So what that would look like essentially is that you would do a little bit of a like a visualization of being in a wooded area with a bunch of trees, with different leaves, with different colors, and then you'd be kind of visualize standing beside a running stream of water or like a babbling brook, and you would notice the leaves from those trees falling down and flowing by. And then it ends up being your job to just notice those leaves and then actually putting your thoughts onto those leaves and watching them flow by at their own pace. And essentially what that meditation is getting you to do is literally this bit of a visualization of separating yourself from your thoughts, but also it kind of gets you into practice of taking an observer position towards the thoughts. So we're not necessarily trying to get rid of them, we're not necessarily even trying to hold on to them. We're just trying to allow them to kind of flow by at their own pace. And ultimately, that's kind of the general idea is that we're not trying to rush through these thoughts, we're not trying to stop these thoughts, we're just trying to allow them to kind of come and go. And once we're able to do that, they can just come and go. We don't necessarily have to engage with them, which for a lot of my clients actually brings quite a bit of freedom, right? Like we don't get bogged down or distracted by, you know, those what ifs or maybe negative thoughts about ourselves or even those thoughts of like, I can't do this. We're we're allowed to have those thoughts, but we don't have to be hooked by them. And the more that we can get into that practice, again, allowing them to flow by, we can engage with the things that actually matter to us.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, it opens up space to be able to think about all sorts of other things because the less that we're thinking about, like if we get stuck on any particular thought, that takes up time and a lot of energy as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah. Time and energy, and it kind of a little nefarious, right? Then it kind of pulls our attention away from the things that we do actually care about, right? And that we do want to invest our time in. And we kind of get preoccupied with the things that can feel like threats. So we feel like we need to kind of do something about them. But then we get focused on trying to avoid these uncomfortable flats or avoid these threats and pulls us away from the things that that do matter to us, right? Just trying to think of a good example here would be yeah, a good example would say, you know, I think everyone's been in a situation when we're kind of at a party and maybe we don't know everybody up there. A friend invited us, so we're kind of feeling a little socially anxious. So we might be having kind of some of those thoughts about, you know, what people might think of us. Our brain might even be trying to predict like what this might be like and all that kind of stuff. But all that really does is actually gets us more and more into our head and less into the party, and less, you know, less into kind of the fun. So to try to practice that cognitive diffusion where we're allowed to have those thoughts, but I'm not gonna attend to those. I'm not gonna put all my attention on them. They can be in the background, but I'm gonna intend to, you know, throw myself into these interactions because really my intention, right, is to enjoy myself here. And the more that I get focused on trying to avoid all those predictions my brain's making, it actually pulls us away from our actual goal, right? Of trying to enjoy ourselves or trying to um shake off the nervousness.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, if we're stuck in our head, we could be at a party and be thinking about like, oh, did that person just give me a funny look? Did I say the right thing? Did I, am I acting the right way? Where should I put my hands? I feel awkward. Like, should my hands be on my hips? Or I'm speaking from experience. I get awkward at parties. It'd be nice to be able to just get out of our heads and be able to just focus on the moment and just even, I guess what I'm hearing and how we might apply this is just noticing something like going, oh, worry thoughts and putting that, imagining myself putting those thoughts on a leaf on the stream and letting them go.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

I mean, and talking about different techniques of kind of practicing this is exactly that, right? Is kind of labeling it. But other ways we could kind of practice this is labeling the thought, but there's actually kind of like a stepwise way to do that. So maybe some people have kind of heard this from their from their counselors themselves without necessarily knowing that this is a cognitive diffusion, but we can start with noticing the thought, and then we kind of add to that thought, okay, I am having the thought. So we add that piece there, and then we add another piece. So we add, I am noticing, I am having the thought. And the idea is that the more that we add those pieces, that essentially, you know, brings to our attention that it's just a thought, or that we're actually in that role of observing our thoughts, kind of adds more distance between our thoughts and ourselves. So again, with that goal of being less fused with those thoughts. And the more that we kind of remind ourselves, right, that's you know, I'm having a thought or that I'm noticing I'm having a thought, again, it feels less, you know, absolute, I guess you could say, right? Or it feels less like that the thoughts absolutely true or this is absolutely happening, or all those kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah, we are not our thoughts. And just because we're having the thought doesn't mean that the thought must be real. Yeah, I love that. Exactly. Yeah. Are there any other benefits of practicing this skill that we haven't touched on yet?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Actually, yeah. So we've been kind of focused on thoughts, but it can be applied to virtually all of our internal experiences. Because it's kind of again a cousin to CBT, we tend to talk about thoughts more, but it can be helpful with our emotions. So again, it's a bit of that noticing, right, that I'm feeling this certain way and trying not to get hooked into that feeling, be it trying to change how we feel or you know, shooting ourselves, saying we shouldn't feel this way, or you know, kind of get stuck in trying to hide that feeling. Because that's again, that's us getting into a fight with it, right? We're we're refusing with it now to allow that feeling to be there. And again, just like a thought is just a thought, no, a feeling is just a feeling as well, noticing that and then trying to engage with what's important to us instead. I've actually found it helpful for clients too who notice they would call their kind of problematic urges for those who are trying to reduce their alcohol consumption or say Amazon or eBay addictions, whatever you want to call it. But again, it's that same practice is we're just trying to take that observer position towards those urges and allowing them to come and go at their own pace without necessarily getting rid of them. So try not to get in a fight with them again and not necessarily holding on to them, right? Just allowing them to come and go as they naturally will.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, I love that. So it's we can apply it not only just to thoughts, but also to urges and just noticing like I'm having, I'm having the thought of whatever or I'm having the urge of whatever. And we can put those urges or those other thoughts onto these, onto these leaves, essentially, right? Saying like I'm gonna let the pass by. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. Uh so beneficial for thoughts and then beneficial for, yeah, if we're having like an urge or a craving, just noticing I don't actually have to act on that urge just because I'm experiencing it in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah. I I actually have found it's kind of helpful with some of my clients who are, you know, going through through trauma treatment and who might even have those, you know, intrusive thoughts or intrusive memories. Of course, those are never comfortable, but cognitive diffusion can help, again, us recognize that it's not happening right now and to have a different relationship with it, right? Try to stop avoiding them, but allowing them to again come and go at their own pace and again try to shift from them being a threat that we have to do something about to something that can be in the background and we can still live our lives as we again go through the rest of our trauma treatment. So I found it's helpful for intrusive thoughts as well. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah, so and like flashbacks, right? Like I think that um that could fall into that category as well, where if somebody has gone through some sort of adverse experience and they're noticing flashbacks are coming up, rather than getting lost in the content of the flashback, being able just to acknowledge and go, oh, that was a flashback, acknowledge it, and then come back to whatever I was doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Because you know, I didn't mention this before, but this is kind of an act concept. And uh Russ Harris often refers to, well, his his book, I guess famous book is called The Happiness Trap. And he talks about this thing called the uh the control agenda. And sometimes it's our control agenda, trying to make sure we're happy and not accepting other feelings that actually kind of gets us into trouble. So again, the more that we, you know, sticking with the example of those intrusive thoughts or even flashbacks, is the more we try to control them. It's it's a losing battle. And that's how we might even amplify their impact. So to try to take an observer position and kind of step back and again, you know, drop the fight with it, might actually find we have more freedom from them. Again, it helps us kind of shift from treating these internal experiences as threats as to our brain doing what our brain does. And we get to have a choice of how we want to engage with it, which you know, I think is kind of the liberating idea of cognitive diffusion.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

I totally agree. I think that this is, it's it could be so liberating, it's so freeing to be able to open up that space in the mind. And what's so interesting about this strategy, it really is quite paradoxical in the sense that we feel like if we give up the fight against our thoughts, that that means that the thought must be coming up or it will start to come up more often. And yet, what is actually the reality is that when we stop fighting the thoughts, they generally will start to simmer down. Back to that metaphor that we were talking about earlier in the episode today, that it's kind of like a um like a tug of war where the thought is pulling us in one direction and saying, like, think about me, think about me. And then we're like fighting with the thought and trying to rationalize with it. And it just keeps so much tension going on with the thought. Whereas the moment that we say, you know what, thought, it's okay. Like I acknowledge you, I know that you're there, and we drop that rope, the thought kind of goes, oh, like I'm not fighting anymore. I don't need to put in all this energy. And it sort of just kind of fades into the background.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Well, and the thing that and the paradoxical thing, right, is that the tug of war, right? There's there's you tugging uh against, you know, let's say this giant monster. When we drop the rope, the monster doesn't necessarily go away, but we're not being pulled into the pit anymore. We're our hands are free again. So I guess Russ Harris even talks about how you know, using the tug of war metaphor is that it ultimately is a losing battle because he would say that really, like our brains are designed in a way to help us survive. They're a survival organ. So that being said, it it kind of means that our brain's kind of biased towards threats. The more that we try to fight with that monster and try to avoid it, it's always gonna win because our brain is gonna find, coming back to this idea of those what-if thoughts, right? The more we try to think our way through those what-if thoughts, it's always gonna generate more. Ultimately, to stay in that tug of war is is again to get stuck, is is to amplify. It's it likely will make things worse. So again, we're not our brains aren't gonna go away. So it's more of that question of, okay, how do I kind of take that step back? How do I again drop that rope?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's a great clarification. It's not that the thought, like we would never want someone to have the thought that the thought's gonna go away, because that's that's just simply untrue. What this may do though is allow that space where I almost picture like if we're like in another metaphor, we're in like a boxing ring. And when we're wrestling with the the thought, we're right there face to face with the thought. Whereas when we accept the thought, then we kind of both go to the sidelines and like we're we're aware that the thought is there. The thought hasn't gone away entirely, but it's just not as animated as it was before.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah. Well, I and and kind of I guess you could say the change component is that again, and in relating to it differently, then we do kind of learn that these thoughts aren't threatening anymore. So, in a sense, they do kind of start to fade away because our brain's not firing with that fight or flight response, right? Or our brain kind of learns that, oh, like these aren't dangerous, so I don't have to do anything about them. So our whole survival response kind of dissipates because it's our brain does learn that a thought's just a thought. We we don't have to get rid of it.

unknown 17:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, exactly. Right? It can just be there. It doesn't have to mean anything per se, right? It's just there.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I I want to give this one example, and it was actually from our friend, and I hope I don't screw it up, but it it was actually even a just a really good example of how it doesn't have to be like big scary thoughts or big things, but even just in kind of like everyday life, it could be helpful. And I'm just trying to make sure I I get the details right. But essentially this the story was that I mean, I think anyone can relate. Like you go to a live public event. I think for this person, they were at like a comedy festival uh that was outside in Edmonton over the summer. But sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you get unlucky, and the people around you might impact the show, like be it they're being rowdy, you know, bucking up against you and all that kind of stuff. Um, they can really pull your attention away. And my friend kind of gave a really good illustration of this is that typically what would happen for them is that they would get really annoyed by those people behind them, and then they kind of get wrapped into like, okay, what am I like, what should I do about it? Like, I want to tell them to be quiet. They might even want to get into a fight with them, but then is that really the best thing? Because I don't want to get kicked out, or I don't know these people, like I don't know if they're dangerous, right? How they might respond. But also, like, I don't want to lose my ability to enjoy the show. So you can get wrapped into this whole kind of what if thing, this whole kind of debate in your head, and all that kind of stuff. And then all that in your head is you're missing the show. And then my friend just literally said what he kind of decided to do, and I think, you know, shout out to his therapist. I think it was kind of a suggestion from their therapist, but he kind of decided to just let it go. And that what that meant was he kind of dropped the debate, he dropped trying to decide, deciding what to do, and he really brought his attention to the show and just really focused on trying to focus on the show. What was important about that is that the people behind him didn't change, but it was more of how he kind of responded to it and where he intended to direct his attention. And um, what he kind of said is he actually, yeah, he kind of forgot they were there and actually had probably one of the best times uh at a live show than he would typically have. Again, because he kind of diffused from those annoying people. I actually often like to tell clients, like one of the ways to kind of think of these thoughts is you know, if you've ever had an annoying little sibling or younger sibling, they might be beside you having a temper tantrum, trying to get your attention. And the more attention you give them, the more it kind of feeds them, right? So even if you're trying to tell them to be quiet, they act it more. But you always have that option of ignoring them or at least not giving them the attention that kind of feeds their behavior. And that's one way you can kind of look at it.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Those are great examples. I love the example you shared of that real life example, and then other ones, uh, like bringing it back to just different like metaphors or ways to look at it of how we would be kind of applying this strategy anyway in different life circumstances. Now we're just essentially applying it to ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah. And and and by the way, for any of the listeners, ACT is known for having tons and tons of examples. And so if you ever look into it, you'll you'll find tons of more of metaphors uh for all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, it's it's very much known as a metaphor-driven therapy. It's one of the things that I would say is its strengths for sure. Okay, Brad, on the topic of metaphors, given that that's what ACT is so known for, are there any other metaphors that you think would be helpful to share with regard to this topic of cognitive diffusion?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yeah. So I kind of feel like, especially when you kind of focus on thoughts, we often kind of think about anxiety and stuff like that. And cognitive diffusion is actually really helpful for depression as well, because again, we often have a lot of thoughts of depression, but it may not be spitfire kind of thoughts. And so a metaphor of, um, and I'm taking this straight from Russ Harris, is the metaphor of the radio doom and gloom. And the idea is that anyone's kind of had this experience, you know, especially kind of growing up, where, you know, say your parents had their favorite radio station that they like to listen to, but it was the music you absolutely hated. You know, for the purpose of this metaphor, it's you know, maybe a radio station that kind of gives us all these kind of negative thoughts. You're never gonna make it, right? Or that you're not enough. Or, you know, there's there's there's no hope for the future for you. Again, these are kind of like those depression thoughts, right? Those thoughts keep playing on that radio. And because Let's say you're living back home, it's your parents' radio, and there's the rule, right? You can't change the station. So it's kind of there. But the option you have is that, you know, even though that's the radio in the background, we can still decide to bring our attention to something that matters to us. You know, say you're trying to watch a show is that what we can do is, I mean, sure, we could turn up the volume, but really what we want to do is just try to pay more attention to that. And we can go, oh, okay, that's no radio, doom, and gloom. That's that old thought that I'm not enough. I know that thought. It's playing in the background, but I'm not gonna get kind of stuck into a fight with my parents of trying to turn it off. I'm gonna just try to engage with a thing that actually is meaningful to me that might help shift me out of my depression. So I often like to say to clients is yeah, you know, that's the same old radio, doom and gloom. It's gonna be plain, but what can we do while it's still in the background?

unknown 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

I think that's perfect because that's so true, right? Like those thoughts, again, they they may still be there and we can still figure out ways to live well despite them and to have kind of like a relationship with them, right? Where we're not telling them they have to go away. They could be there. We just need to be focusing on what is important to us in moving our life forward despite those thoughts, just like we would with a sound in the background. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Ah, that's so awesome. I love this. It's I as I'm listening, what I'm very aware of is, and it's so funny, this is the overlap between different therapeutic models, is that in DBT, this is very much our mindfulness of thought skill. And I think that's just it's neat, right? To hear that there's different models that have the same skill, but just spoken about in different ways. Though what I think to the credit of ACT, all the different metaphors I think are so helpful. Like I'm sitting here and just like, yeah, just soaking all this in because I think it just helps to make the skills make more sense when we're able to give these different ways of understanding them.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah. Well, and I think they, you know, talking about ACT and DVT, they they have similar roots. They both, you know, integrate mindfulness. And really these are mindfulness approaches. But I can imagine for many folks, I mean, mindfulness is a skill, and there's people who spend their lives mastering it. So when we talk about mindfulness, I know for folks sometimes we can get a little like uh too heady or kind of like, oh my gosh, you know, I've heard this word before, but I don't know if this works for me, kind of thing. And act, I think, does actually do a really good job of okay, like how do we relate this to our everyday life? Mindfulness can sound like a really big, overwhelming skill, but all these metaphors kind of breaks it down and gives, you know, a more relatable, understandable way of approaching these things.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, makes it seem a lot more user-friendly.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Which is what we want, because then it makes people more likely to be willing to try them.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

That's awesome. Brad, this has been amazing. I I love this conversation. I think this is a strategy that is so helpful for so many people. So I just really appreciate your expertise in speaking about it. If people wanted to find you, where could they find you?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Well, of course, you can find me on psychology today, but you could also find my website at www.rethinkwellpsychology.net. And yeah, that's where you can find me. Of course, I guess you could find me downtown or you know, in a nice bookstore or movie theater. That's where I tend to be most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I love that. That is so true too, right? Like I think um, yeah, for for anyone who uh is interested in knowing a little bit more about you as a person, right? That that you're definitely an avid reader and an avid uh avid uh movie follower, is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah, yeah. Which is awesome. Amazing. Okay, thank you very much for your time and looking forward to uh having our listeners back for our next episode. See you later. Thanks so much for listening. If you found today's episode helpful, please go ahead and leave us a review. And you can also follow the show so that you don't miss out on any future episodes. For more information about us, you can check out our website, www.innersolutions.ca.