Mindfulness Part 2: Getting to Know 'Describe'

Clinical Director Jessica Heil and Associate Director of DBT Services Travis Hauck continue their series of episodes on the DBT Mindfulness Skills. Today's focus is on the describe skill, which is the second of the mindfulness 'What' skills. If you haven't listened to the previous episode, we recommend going back and listening to it first before diving into this one.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Inner Solutions Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Heil. I own and operate Inner Solutions, a private practice clinic located in Calgary, Canada. Inner Solutions seeks to understand and help our clients by providing empirically supported treatments and evidence-based practices with compassion and expertise. This podcast will provide you with information regarding complex psychological conditions as well as treatments that are available. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Inner Solutions Podcast. I'm here again with Travis Houk, and we're going to be continuing our series of episodes on the DBT mindfulness skills. Today's main focus is going to be on the describe skill, which is the second of the mindfulness what skills. If you haven't yet listened to the previous episode, I would encourage you to pause right now and go back and listen to that episode because this current one will build on what we've already said. For those of you who have listened to that other episode, where I'd like to start is Travis, could you just give us just a really quick recall of what do you think we would benefit from remembering about the observe skill that we talked about last episode before we move into talking about describe?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I think the standouts for the observe skill is that really from the what and how skills perspective is the observe skill builds into the describe skill. That the idea is that we offer beginner's mind or a curious mind a sense of awe, this wonder that we have for the experience that's happening, whether it's positive, negative, or neutral, that our brains have deemed it, typically what's happening in observing is we haven't been able to make that connection because observing happens before thinking. And so observing is occurring prior to what might be perceived as object thought. And then we have perspective that shows up in this describing way where our mind starts putting on perspective of whether we like or dislike or don't care otherwise about the experience that's happening, whether we want to pay attention or not pay attention, we get an opportunity to direct our minds in that way, which is leading into one of the how skills.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, we'll definitely, I think later on in in future episodes, we will start to talk about how we can connect the what and how skills. So that's to come. So the observe skill, really what I'm hearing in that is observe is about it's wordless watching. We talked about that last episode. It's that moment of awareness that occurs right before we start to put words on what the experience is. It's such a quick pause that happens before we add words. And so for anyone who has tried to use that observe skill after listening to last episode, you'll probably find how difficult it actually is to do that without putting on words. So we're just going to remind everybody that it's a practice. And the more that you do it, the better you'll become. I think, though, that most people will probably find the describe skill to be, there's more ease with it because we're so used to going to that place of sinking. So let's jump in then, Travis. How would you define the describe skill?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

I think the describe skill is that next step on top of observing, where the mind starts putting labels onto things. If we're practicing the describing in the most effective way possible, we're putting observable facts. So observable facts from our senses using the observing perspective is only observable facts outside of ourselves that we can sense with our five senses, or alternatively describing internal experiences that are arising for us, like internal body sensations, sensations of emotion experience that arise, or sensations of the mind that come up in describing thought and noticing what's present and what's here and how it's showing up. And I think the difference between describing and what the brain likes to do sometimes, sometimes more often than not, is to add lenses of interpretations related to our values or our perspective, the lenses that we perceive that thing from.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

We can, therefore, we can describe uh thoughts is really what I'm hearing as kind of the crux of it, is being able to describe the things that are showing up in our brain, right? The thoughts that we're having, and being able to maybe get a bit of separation from those thoughts and noticing that, oh, like that is like, yes, while that that is a thought, it's not necessarily like a fact. Like you're saying that describe is about trying to find those tangible facts.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Absolutely. Yeah, very much so about finding describable and observable facts that we can really put words to without getting stuck in the evaluation of interpretation assumptions and added. Um, my meditation teacher often talks about it as story, this added perspective and story that we add on to the initial observation and what was described initially then turns into how we feel about it or how whether the brain deems it to be right, wrong, worthy, unworthy.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

When I'm looking outside right now, the thing that I'm seeing are clouds. And as I'm looking at these clouds, I'm noticing that they're they're white, there's some gray, some parts of the gray is actually quite like a deep gray. And the the thought that came into my mind was, ugh, we're gonna have more rain. Can you tell me how that thought is or is not part of the describe skill?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I mean, describing I'm noticing the thought that ugh, we're gonna have more rain really is lending to your emotional experience that comes with noticing clouds. The first portion of what you were doing was describing, describing the different uh characteristics, the different uh color tones, the shades and the experience. And then the addition of the ugh is that emotion-laden perspective on it that is actually trying to communicate something of your disliking for uh the consistency of the ring that we've currently had in the last little while.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

How would I describe the uh using the describe skill?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

I mean, uh similar to what I said just a moment ago, we can describe it as noticing a thought that is arising related to noticing the thought, uh, it looks like it's gonna rain. We can also describe the emotion experience of I'm noticing, well, I can't necessarily read your emotional experience, but I'm noticing a disliking and I'm noticing a dread for the fact that maybe I have to bike home today and I'm worried in the noticing that this is going to happen and I'm gonna get caught in the rain and I'll have an unpleasant experience riding in the rain.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Love that. It's so rich when you start to break it down that that one really quick thought of, ugh, it looks like it's going to rain, when I really dig into it and I'm applying mindfulness skills. What is underneath all that is exactly what you just said. It's a disliking, it is a dread, it is a worry. And so I can apply the describe skill by noticing those emotions rather than just getting stuck in the narrative of, ugh, it's going to rain. It's like, oh, I can describe that. I'm noticing it's it's worry because my mind is starting to go to the future thought of what's going to happen if it rains, and dread because I'm not looking forward to walking in the rain or uh just being outside in the rain and perhaps getting cold. So I'm observing those emotions, but then I'm describing the word that fits with those emotions and also the narrative really that's coming with that of what I'm expecting may happen because of the rain. So the describe skill really gives me these layers to be able to observe that is truly just a lot more rich than just saying, oh, it's gonna rain.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Totally. And and the interesting piece about what you've described there is that that narrative, that story, doesn't take into account another perspective, right? That maybe it'll drizzle and maybe there'll be a beautiful rainbow on the walk or the ride home. And that maybe it won't be cool outside. Maybe it'll be actually refreshing. And we don't necessarily know that because the worry comes over and really um fixes the mind and and tunnel visions it into this is the worry about this event happening. And it it kind of filters it in, believing that there's some absolute truth that we know that at the very particular time in which we leave work, this event is gonna occur and it's gonna be unpleasant. I don't know if you've ever had that experience. I know I have, where there's been uh a choice and a choiceful perspective where I have been walking in the rain and there's a moment of decision between am I gonna take this moment as a moment of unpleasantness, or am I actually gonna turn it into something that has pleasantness to it? Can I run in the rain? Can I uh kind of start dancing off light poles, those kind of things? Can I actually find pleasure in this? Can I, even in the idea of being stuck in the rain, um, can I start describing the experience of the coolness of the water hitting my skin? Can I bring uh a description to how I'm noticing the drizzle change as the raindrops move on my skin? Can I notice the wind and the breeze as it uh cools certain areas on the top of my skin, or noticing the descriptible fact about underneath the skin where the warmth is, or the changes that happen in the body as the emotions start changing, depending on, again, that story, that narrative, that perspective that I take related to whether I like, dislike, or believe something is neutral.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

For sure. By applying mindfulness, by noticing that there's awareness of the clouds and awareness of those emotions that are showing up, that immediate dislike, that immediate dread, anxiety. The moment I start to notice that, so observe it and then put a word on it, describe the emotion, what that gives me is choice. I get to now have a pause to decide how am I going to respond moving forward. And this is what I love so much. Because if I didn't notice those emotions, if I'm just looking outside and going, like, oh, great, the rain again, and having that dread, then I may just continue to plow through my day and not have the ability to really change that emotional experience. Whereas what you're saying is that if I have that moment of awareness, I observe the dread, then I can pause and say, hmm, is that true? Does it like must it be dread? Or is it possible to do something a little bit different in my mind, describe the rain in a different way, or even just notice that it is an assumption. Like at this point, in this moment, it is not raining, right? That is an interpretation that I have about the future that I don't know is necessarily going to be true. But if we play that tape to the end, let's say that the rain actually happens, to do the things that you just said and be able to be out in the rain, observe it, describe it without that judgment and just be with it gives me a whole different experience of a rain shower compared to just sitting with that narrative that rain is dready.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I think the other piece that comes to mind when you say that too is I think that describe has a tendency of leading us to actually applying many of the other DBT skills, similar to what you've just said, is by noticing observable emotional experience and that the story came out of clouds, it's gonna rain later, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen. The reality then is that we also have the ability to check facts. We also have the ability of then assessing, is this something I want to problem solve? If I am feeling that I'm getting a little bit sick, maybe wandering around and trying to make walking in the rain a joyful experience isn't necessarily effective for me physically health-wise. So then I might have the opportunity to turn around and say, hmm, what can I do about this? Do I have someone in my vicinity, in my social circle, that would be willing to swing by and pick me up at that particular time in on the off chance that it is raining? Do I have the means in which I can find another alternative? Maybe it's a moment where you actually get an opportunity to connect with a coworker that is driving in that circumstance and has the opportunity to turn around and you get to use your described skills interpersonally and ask to get a need met, or you describe this is the reality, this is how worried I am, or how dreading I am towards this situation. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to give me a ride on your way home to the training or to my own home and what it's going to be good for. So I think describing has the opportunity for us to lead into so many of the other skills, which is where Marshall Lineman would have described core mindfulness skills, these what and how skills are the underlying, the basis and the starting place for each of the skills as we move forward, because discerning what's happening right now and being able to understand this present moment factually, without the added judgments, without the interpretations, allows us to determine and to assess what's effective moving forward. What are the primary skills that I want to be utilizing in this moment? And how do I work with what's here now? That's where I think Marsha Linehan describes so often again and again. I've heard her quote this that everything that arises in life, whether it's something that's pleasant or something that's unpleasant, whether it's a problem or whether it's something that we're really loving happening is an opportunity to practice skills.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, these skills are they're things that we we learn in DBT. And oftentimes when we're learning it in psychotherapy, we're going to be practicing the skills with something that may not necessarily feel like it connects to your real life. Like we'll practice with starting with maybe like observing and describing a rock. And sometimes people will say, well, why are we, you know, practicing on a rock? Like rocks are not part of my life. Like, why are we, why are we starting here? There's other things that are more pressing for me to focus on. And I always like to remind people that we need to start by practicing somewhere. And I what I really am enjoying about this conversation is this idea of how we take those mindfulness skills that we learn in psychotherapy and how do we utilize them into our day-to-day lives. These are not just skills that you learn in kind of a sterile environment like one psychotherapy session and then forget about. These are ones that if you can really figure out how to incorporate these into your actual life, they can truly be life-changing. And I think about what you said in terms of at the beginning of this episode, you talked about awe. And that experience of awe, I think, is one of the things that if we can figure out how to influence ourselves to experience awe a little more often, it can make us feel so much more alive and appreciative about life and just give us such a more enhanced human experience. Can you talk a little bit more about how we could use observe and describe to create a sense of awe?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Actually, I I found it quite fascinating when you started to describe the clouds outside, because as I turn to look out my window, and essentially we're looking at very similar clouds because our offices aren't far away from each other. The beauty of it though is I turn and look out of the window, and you're describing your dread, and I'm looking at it and seeing the moments or the shadows, the depths in which each of these clouds is sitting, and more of appreciation, a gratitude for this wonder that I can offer it. This looking at it as though I've never seen clouds like this before. And I haven't seen these particular clouds. These are new, right? These are different elements of water that's uh molecules in the air and contents. And there's a perspective, a shift in my lens. And I think that's where Marsha Linahan described how challenging the understanding and the actual practice of observing can be, because observing can be considered to be so simple. Just look at things as though you've never seen them before. And it actually is a mind flip where we're turning around and looking at things, not just putting a positive lens on them per se, to look at them in this like fresh lens and to start experiencing this reality from this, yeah, that like rich, curious, beautiful idea of what's here. And we have the ability to describe those experiences when the mind gets out of observing and into that lens where we start putting words onto it. I think the beauty of the underlying principle of describe, though, is that by going back to the facts, the observable details, without the added story and the emotional laden uh description that came onto it, I have the ability to actually down-regulate and decrease the intensity that the emotion's coming with. So instead of it being dread, maybe there is worry that arises or an apprehension or a nervousness. And the level of intensity between a dread experience that's happening arising in the body, if we even describe that, um, compared to the experience of noticing a nervousness or an apprehension towards what may be, knowing that it may not actually turn out to be at that particular time it's going to rain. There's a there's a different intensity, a different intensity in emotion on the emotion thermometer. But then more than that, there's a different intensity of sense experience that arises in the body. Dread comes with uh quite a few like body sensations, symptom presentations. The nervous system fires in such a strong way, whereas nervousness, yeah, like it's it's it too isn't necessarily what many of us would deem to be a pleasant emotion experience. And it's telling you about something that's important to you, it's giving you information. And when it's in a lens that sits maybe at a three out of 10 compared to a nine or a 10 out of 10, the ability to move through those skills, the ability to even have access to so many of the other skills that we talked about, many of those lying in emotion regulation, the change skills of DBT, we don't have access to those skills. Our brain isn't able to function at the capacity it's needed when dread is there at a nine or a 10 compared to a nervousness or an apprehension that maybe sits at a much lower, uh, much lower scale.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah. If we can describe just the facts, usually that means that we are going to have a different level of emotional intensity compared to when we are involved with our interpretations and our assumptions.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Similar to that statement you made earlier, thoughts aren't facts. Yes. The way that I interpret things, the way that I think about it, just doesn't make that the truth. It doesn't make it you're talking about something that's going to happen in like six to seven hours, whenever we end up actually leaving. And for all we know, it's going to be clear blue skies by then. And maybe there'll be a rainbow. Maybe it'll be a sun shower. Like, who really knows? And I think that's where some of that awe comes in is that wonder of what will be later isn't here yet. What is now is what's here in this present moment. And there, that's where that richness comes from, I think.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yeah, absolutely. I wonder if you might be willing to walk us through a describe practice. And then I think that's probably enough for today. Let's give folks one practice before we say goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Sure. So describing is an interesting one to do over podcasts because there's so many different ways that we could be practicing with describing. And more often than not, I would similar to what you talked about here, is in sessions describing rocks, describing um objects, uh, typical everyday things, those kind of ideas. Through this episode, though, I'm wondering if we can maybe practice with using the observed skill to offer that lens of curiosity, that depth of practice, that richness of the beginner's mind, and then watch the mind move into describing and watch the mind as it moves into describing, touching as often as we can when the mind starts going into labeling of judgments and having that addition of emotion experience that arises. So one of the things that we have with at all times is our body. And one of the pieces, one of my favorite personal practices, is to be able to describe a piece of my body. So I'd like you to take a moment to get yourself situated, maybe pause the recording if needed, so that you can find a little bit of time here for us to be as present as we can, knowing that the mind is an interesting one where it is a problem-solving machine and it's going to want to think about other things. And we're going to practice as best as possible to come back and start again. I'm going to ask this to be as one mindful as possible with observing through sight and through noticing the hand and maybe the back of the hand, and really putting our mind into can I zone in and out of very specific areas by perceiving the hand as though I've never seen it before and trying to notice as quickly as possible when the mind starts putting evaluation onto I don't like that or I need this or I oh gosh I could use a manicure or that nail looks different than that nail. Where did that scar come from? That questioning of reality and that longing for it to be different. Mindfulness is about allowing about letting it be about accepting the experience that is. So my hand is the way that my hand is and I'm not going to do anything about it in this next three minutes. It's going to be exactly as it is. And so if I can ask you to situate yourself and get yourself ready to just dedicate these three minutes allowing yourself to be as present as possible and starting to look at the hand through a mindful lens of just mindfully seeing and what often will start arising is the mind will start jumping right into describing. If you haven't noticed that already maybe start putting labels onto what you're noticing. And maybe we're zoning really in and looking at where the folds or the cruises are depending on our age not going into that lens of my hand is wrinkly or it's different than it used to be or it's this is here and this is there. It's more of what is here and allowing it to be there without wanting it to be any different than it is. So dropping our mind then and maybe getting as close as you can and looking at when you look at the back of a hand that flat portion or a piece can you start seeing the pieces of the skin as though you've never seen them before are you able to start noticing at least on my hand I perceive them as like small triangles where skin cells are I I'm assuming that skin cells are connecting to other skin cells and that each one of those shapes those maybe rectangles squares etc I'm having the thought I'm noticing the thought that they remind me of reptile skin. And that's a comparison right recognizing I'm noticing this experience and that it reminds me of something else. And in each of these triangles squares rectangles these points where the skin appears to connect on my hand there appears I can perceive like a tiny little follicle of hair coming out at the peak of the diamond can I notice how quickly it is the mind goes somewhere else and then can I go back to and start again remembering that the practice is starting over the practice is catching the mind and coming back can I notice and then can I describe what I see how many folds how many lines in each nail how specific can I become and as often as you can letting go of the evaluation of the disline of life noticing aware and light if you haven't practiced describing before what you've just done here is describe you've observed and watched the mind move into describing which is only natural at this point if you haven't necessarily ended your practice maybe you don't want to maybe you want to spend twenty minutes looking at your hand as though it's fresh and new maybe offering appreciation for how they serve you.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Or maybe you finished and we're done before we even started and that's okay too just noticing that noticing maybe even the sense experience that came up with that urge to to end that you haven't practiced before you just did that's beautiful I appreciate you walking through a practice like that and and what I really enjoyed about this one in particular is that our hands are always with us.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Something that we can do no matter where we are yeah which is a beautiful one Stephen look at knowing that this portion and this thing that we can see more often than not that we have the ability to even use it as a skillful behavior, as a mindfulness practice of grounding, of even distracting right where I can put my mind onto the observable facts where I can start describing the facts as though I as I see them and maybe it distracts me from a distress that's coming up or maybe it brings me into the present moment and allows that settling connection to that peacefulness that might be present for us.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Lots of different benefits that we can get from doing a practice and even just a couple minutes, right? Like two minutes of of doing something like this has that ability to downregulate those emotions Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

And I think what uh I found so useful is every little bit counts and it's a kind of a stacking in in mindfulness and in meditative practices. That um it is a practice and each time we come back is a strengthening of that frontal cortex and an allowing of our mindfulness muscle to be worked.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah absolutely it is let's leave it there for today. Travis I just so appreciate all the time that you're spending doing this. You have so much to say and to offer to people when it comes to your knowledge and depths of mindfulness. So thank you very much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Very much so I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Thanks so much for listening. If you found today's episode helpful please go ahead and leave us a review and you can also follow the show so that you don't miss out on any future episodes. For more information about us you can check out our website www.innersolutions.ca