I just want you to have better - but at what cost?

"I Sacrificed Everything So You Wouldn't Have To. So Why Are We Still Missing Each Other?"
"I gave up everything for you."

If you grew up in an immigrant household, you've probably heard some version of that sentence. But what happens when a parent's greatest act of love becomes a child's greatest source of pressure?

In this powerful episode of Between Two Worlds with Dr. Phebe, Dr. Phebe sits down with a respected elder from the community - Dr. Emmanuel Anusiem, to explore the heart behind immigrant sacrifice, the fears that drive parental expectations, and why so many immigrant families struggle to feel understood despite loving each other deeply.

Together, they unpack:
• What immigrant parents hoped their children would gain from their sacrifices  
• The fears hidden beneath pressure around education, careers, and success  
• Why younger generations are choosing happiness, purpose, and mental health differently  
• The tension between gratitude and guilt  
• What both generations wish the other understood

This isn't a conversation about choosing sides. It's about understanding the love, fear, hope, and pain that often get lost in translation between generations.

If you've ever felt torn between honoring your parents and becoming yourself, this episode will stay with you long after it ends.

🎧 Listen, subscribe, and share with someone who needs this conversation.

Send your questions and topic ideas to consult@phebebrakolmft.com or slide in my DM's on Instagram @drphebebrako

Remember we can only grow our audience with your support. Please share with your community!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Because back home somebody's is doing something. You remember how we say back home? Oh, I'm fine, I'm good. Yeah. But they are not.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

They are not. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Okay. But here this kid says, Okay, my head is hurting. Mm-hmm. You just hit me in the head and then you're asking me, how am I doing? Of course I'm hurt. Right. But back on this, oh yeah, I'm fine. It's okay. God will provide. So you know.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Welcome back to Between Two Worlds with Dr. Phoebe, the podcast where immigrant parents and children stop talking at each other, but we actually talk to each other, right? I'm your host, Dr. Phoebe Brackle. I'm a therapist. I'm a mom. I'm a daughter, also, and you know, someone who has spent a significant portion of her life yapping. You know, I like to yap and also trying to understand whether my parents were encouraging me or issuing some sort of like legally binding life plan or something like that. So on today's episode, which is going to be called I Sacrificed Everything So that You Wouldn't Have To. We're going to be talking a little bit more about parents and you know, if you grew up in an immigrant household, you've probably heard some sort of like version of this. You know, maybe it sounded like, Do you know what I went through to get you to where you are? Or, you know, when I was your age, you know, at your time, you know, it's just yeah. Or or the classic, we didn't come this way for you to come and struggle, right? And you felt caught between gratitude and pressure, right? And because we're trying to honor our parents, we're trying to make sure that our kids are well taken care of, we're trying to also not feel responsible for paying, right, with our entire life, right? So today we're gonna talk about that tension, but from the parent perspective. And so I invited someone that I deeply respect from our community to come and join this conversation, and someone who can maybe help us understand the immigrant parent standpoint, right? And the pressure and you know, those expectations that we have. So I would love to, you know, have this conversation and see where it goes, right? So today's guest has a lot of wisdom, a lot of life experience, and a perspective that a lot of you know immigrant parents have, right? Yes. He's he's a mentor, he's a dear friend of mine, and dare I say one of the cool uncles. Yeah. So please join me in welcoming Dr. Immanuel Anisium.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 2:59

I'm so happy that you're here too. Ah, I'm excited. Thanks, thanks for making the time. I know that you're a very busy person. Yeah, right. And I'm excited to have this conversation with you because I think a lot of children will think about the pressure, but they don't always hear the fear that is behind the pressure. And so today we're going to try to build that bridge between the two worlds, right? So, so before we get serious and and talk, you know, about all the serious things, you know, there's this part of like immigrant parent math, right? Where there's a very fascinating way that immigrant parents calculate the concept of sacrifice, right? We sacrifice for you, right? And I think we were even talking about this about like picking up the phone or like answering text messages, right, on our way, right? And and sometimes like for immigrant moms, like my mom, she calls, you don't answer the phone, or she texts and you don't respond. And it's ah, do you know how many months I had to carry? Right? And and and you know, like it's just like, wait, hold on. It was just one phone call, right? And and or or one day you're asking for the Wi-Fi password, and it's do you do you know what we had to deal with when we were in school? We didn't have Wi-Fi, we had to walk 20 miles to the library, or maybe 20 kilometers, I should say. And then before you realize you're talking about things from like 1987 and things like that, and so you know, I I I hear you saying yes, yeah. So it sounds like you know, you are agreeing.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, I I I I I really agree to what you're saying, and that I agree to the what the parents are saying too. Because when you come from a place with limited resources, so you have to make do whatever you have. True. So the idea is that for them to remind you that I'm going through this in order for you to have this life. So they are not trying to look at it from a different perspective that okay, you have like what the kids have now, you know, you can flip on a light on. Yes. Okay, they use lanterns, they use a lot of things that they could get up to that point. Candles. Candles, they use all these kerosene lamps and everything else. So when they are trying to push that, they are not pushing it in the sense they wanted to remind you that don't take everything for granted. That we went through a whole lot for you to be there. Because I remember I used to tell my kids then I said, Hey, do you know grandpa killed a lion? You know, he said, Wow, how did he kill a lion? Wait, did he really? How did he kill a lion? Well, they didn't kill a lion. But I was I was trying to great, I was trying to get the attention to the fact that you walk in the bushes, and you know, for you to eat, you have to get to the bush to go pick up whether you are picking up a sticks or they're picking up trees and everything else, or wood and everything else, and the fruit. So anything can happen when you go in there. So you have to be strong. Yeah. So for you now to be attacked by a lion or anything else, then you have to make sure you kill the lion in order for you to survive. So, what the parents are trying to tell you is that they're trying to clear pictures remember where you come from. Don't forget that. Yeah, don't let all some of all these things, you know, become an analogy of you saying, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do that. After all, you know, this is how you do it. But it is it's uh it's something that we need to put our mind to. Each and every immigrant parent always has to say that.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

And that wake us up. You know, because uh, like you said, in between two cultures now, we're looking at it and saying, if she do all these things for me and look at what I have now, I need to st I need to stood up. I need to, you know, start doing stuff, being able to say that I'm doing the right thing, you know, other than just everything has come to you free. Right. You know, so and easy.

SPEAKER_04 7:01

Yeah. Well, you mentioned kids. Tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, when when you think about your your upbringing. Give us a little bit of a background here and who you are today.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Well, like most Africans and most Nigerians, so I I came over here over here to go to school in that you know, this day and age, but um it's that was a long time ago. Uh say a long time ago, like it I mean Well, long time ago, meaning and if you are here in the 2000s, in the 90s, you know, so that's that's why I consider a long time ago because the kids would tell me, hey dad, you're old now. I say I understand because okay, you look at the phone, I said, you know, I need to search for this. Well, you don't know how to do that. Let me show you, you're old now. So, you know, like like most of us, yeah. The idea is that if you look at Africa in the in itself, especially most of us that came from the British colony, yeah, the idea is that for everybody wanted to go to school in the UK.

SPEAKER_05 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

But then when we started growing up, we said our parents went to school in the UK. Well, why why are we gonna go to the UK? Everybody wanted to come to the US.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

So that US concept, showing us basketball, Mike Johnson, all the rap music and everything else. And everybody wanted to come because it's so cool. Yeah. The people like to talk, you know, the people talk a little bit differently. Yeah, but then we're saying, you know what I mean. Exactly. So everybody wanted to do that. Yeah. So when you come in, but the idea is that you're gonna realize that you're coming in to go to school because this is most of most of us that left came in at a time we never stayed out of our parents' house. This is our first time.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

So some people take that liberty to the next level. Yeah. And they forget school and doing all those things. But at the same time, so you come in, you started going to school. I came to realize because I used to tell my kids that I said, I eat a lot of noodles. That's why they hate noodles right now. Me too. Because I said those days you gotta say, you have, I mean, ten dollars. Yeah, those days you gotta say, if I can spend two or three dollars to buy noodles, I can put it in there.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

You know, now we're talking about like the ramen noodles.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

In the pack. Exactly. In the pack, yeah. That's where that's your survival. Yes, you know, yes. So when you go through all that and you're telling them, okay, you're coming over here, you can go to the store, pick whatever you want. Those days you cannot. Because you see, when money's coming from Nigeria, from any place else, you're gonna look at it, say, okay, tuition first, how much money do I have remaining? Right. How can I survive up to this? Yeah, so most of us go to school in the night. You go to school in the day in the daytime, in the night, you go to work. Then you come back sometimes, you sleep in the class, you know. All you need to do is uh meet Mr. A, Mr. B is gonna help you say this is which is this is where this is where the lecture started and it ended here, and in between, this is when you slept. So you didn't know you didn't know what was going on. Say, okay, let me copy, let me copy whatever you did. So and so we we get it to that point. So I went through the school process, I went through the college thing, and you know, the only thing I promised my parents is that my dad has been somebody that loves education. So I said, whatever the zenith of education is, and that is having a doctorate, yeah, you know, I would do that no matter what the situation is. Yeah, so even if I had to scrap the floor and do anything, but I need to do that to please them because that's what their interest is. Right. They're not interested in, you know, you're coming, you're making money, you say how much money do you have? They're interested in what did you study? How can you bring it back to transform people's life back home to change that concept? Because I remember during the politics those days, somebody says Queen's English and King's English. So I know some politicians that went to school in the United States. So they come back, they speak the King's English, and then they create a word, and then you start saying, Is that a word? You know, because then everybody knows that. Everybody knows because they are creating a word. They say, Okay, that's how we do it in UPen or this or something like that. But uh, so I said, Okay, this is what it's gonna be, and it gets to a point. The idea was for us to come in and go to school and go back. But unfortunately, when the things started changing where you come from, then you said, okay, I'll stay back then, started having kids. And now I tried to propel to them the importance of the kind of career you wanted to choose that makes a whole lot of importance when it comes to parent, immigrant parent. Yeah, we live in a society, say that diversified society. Right, but then what makes sense and what doesn't make sense? Yeah. So I was talking to one person, and we said, oh, every African I see, three of them or four of them are engineers. Okay. Yes, yeah, because the the idea is that we come in, we look at the skill set that we're gonna we have to have in order for us to go back home and say we can be able to do this. And that's why we get into those.

SPEAKER_04 12:03

You know what? I have not thought about that. That is such a great perspective, and I'm I'm glad that you brought that up. What skills are applicable and what can we take back home and and help back home? Exactly. So if you're an engineer, right, that is a it's a it's a skill that is translatable.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Translatable, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

And then if you're a doctor, that is a skill that is also translatable. I I had not really even thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:29

So I'm glad you brought that up.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, because it's it's uh that was something I was doing that those days, you know, I was you know deciding whether to go to engineering school or go to medical school. But I don't like blood, I can deal with all this, you know, people suffering. And I said, okay, I'm gonna go into engineering. And then my first degree was in agricultural engineering. But I said, okay, if I go into agricultural engineering, this world, all the people need is food. Yeah. If I can mechanize agriculture to the point where people are not gonna stay, they say Africa are dying of you know hunger and everything else. But we have the resources though. Yes. People are telling us you have all the resources. Right. Why are you not mechanizing your agriculture? So I said, okay, I'm gonna get into agricultural engineering to find out how I can mechanize agriculture to the people so that they can be able to be successful. You know, so then people thinking about engineering, they're not thinking about medicine, I can go on and discover cholera, discovered vaccin for this and that. So that's what we encourage people to do. But now things have changed. You know, politicians say if you are a politician, you'll become so rich. If you are this, if you're that, nobody, the soft skills that exist, nobody wanted to go into that. Because they want to tell you, if you look at some of the companies without even mentioning any, right, you know, they said if you go to an MBA, just have an MBA, this and that, your money, you'll be a CEO of the company. But you have limitations. Who you are, right? Because we have companies that will say, if I wanted to have a global presence, I need to have a different face of somebody. Because if I'm having a manufacturing company in Asia or someplace else, then I'm gonna go over there. Who would those people respect? Yeah, they're gonna respect a certain kind of person.

SPEAKER_05 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

So now we realize that. And I realize that as a parent, and I'm telling the kids, I said, you're not gonna go to that. You're gonna make sure this is where you are, because it's not up, it's not about what you study now, it's not about everything else. But you can never be the face, because I've experienced that so many times. Yeah, I've experienced it so many times in the sense that I was gonna manage a company, you know, be the CEO of the company, and they look at my resume, look at everything else. But unfortunately, when I I did the Zoom to talk to, everything changed. Oh, because uh I don't want to see the face of this person. Yeah, you have all the stakeholders, yeah, and all these other people, and they you they're gonna be reporting to, but you are the one that's gonna be in charge of this company.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Yeah, no, I'll be the face, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

You'll be the face because then they said if we go back to the stakeholders to ask for this, to ask for that, and shareholders and everybody we're gonna talk to, how are they gonna look at you?

SPEAKER_03 15:17

How are they gonna relate?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

How are they gonna relate?

SPEAKER_03 15:19

Are they going to respect you?

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Are they gonna respect it? That's another thing again. Yeah, are they gonna say okay, this is it? But it's only that glass ceiling was first broken by Microsoft. And he got it, he got a little backlash on it because they were saying it's an American company. It's this, is this, and somebody in the DAO, somebody coming from someplace is the face.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

So Microsoft says, go to any of these schools, of the IVL schools, look at the first 10 in every graduating year and look at the names of the people there. So not only did I bring this person, I want somebody that is technically up to date that knows it.

SPEAKER_06 15:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

It's not a question of you know you going in and saying that you have an MBA, but here understand what the process is and being able to run this a little bit better.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

So it sounds like you have had a wealth of knowledge to also share with your children just based on your career and just being in corporate as long as you have, right? Because you've been in corporate for for decades at this point, right? And so, what is something that maybe you like in thinking about moving from Nigeria and coming to the US, what is something that perhaps you were hoping that your children would have that maybe you didn't? And do you think they recognize that sacrifice?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, they get, you know, sometimes, you know, they don't think that way, but sometimes you gotta bring them back.

SPEAKER_05 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

So I'm gonna go to uh my idea was to for them to have a global presence. Okay, so that they can, you know, uh extensively, you know, what skills do they have? You know, not beyond where I am.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Because I said, no matter what the situation is, I'm not gonna go to school in Nigerian state in Nigeria and do all those things. Okay, right. Even if I have to bring somebody to this world to be able to say, hey, where you like can you compete? Right. Why can't you compete in the outside world? Yeah. Because when you are cooking within an area and that's all you know. So they say, Oh, you're good, but you're good in Nigeria. But then can you go beyond that? Because I remember my and I used to find with my daughter when she said, Oh, dad, I have an A. I said, Why can't you have an A plus? Yeah, he said, But A is an A. He said, Oh, I have an A and I have an A plus. I said, Didn't somebody have that A plus? Then she said, Well, but it's an A. I say, Well, it's supposed to have an A. How many heads do that person have that have that A plus? How many heads do you have, right? Okay, right. So it's just one, it's just one, it's just one. So I want them to compete to the outside world to have a global presence so that they can say, I'm good at this. Yeah, and then I'm good at that. Yeah. Because you see, you know, because in America, you're looking at it when Michael Jordan plays basketball, they said Michael Jordan is the best in the world. See that? So because they look at it, they said, okay, we look in Asia, we look in Africa, we look everywhere. We think Michael Jackson is the Michael Jordan is the best. Okay, so that presence out there that has helped them a lot. If you start talking about all those personalities that we have in Africa, uh, who is the head of the world tracing our world trade organization, right? Is if he would have been grew up, stayed in Nigeria or in Africa and everything else, nobody would have recognized her skills, nobody would have recognized how important he could be in the world economy to change things.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Okay, so yeah, that was that was my intention. Yeah, my intention is for them to have that global presence and be able to compete within, yeah, outside of you know who they are.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Yeah, yeah. So that that exposure. And I mean, like my I think about my kids, you know, they're they're much younger, but I think that's one of the reasons why I would say that I encourage a lot of that global learning, right? Yeah. Right now, my oldest is very much into flags and and you know, world stuff, maps, right? You know, things like that. And I encourage that because it's I think it's a skill that is going to be very necessary. Exactly. And he also he started teaching himself Russian at a very young age.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Right. And so I'm I I don't speak Russian, right? And so I I've heard, you know, even things in the past from like other African parents who are like, ah, why why would you why would you be wasting this time with with Russian? Why aren't you having him learn our Ghanaian language? And mind you, I I'm trying there, right? And I and I brought it up to him and he said, you know, can we save that for later? And it hurt my feelings a little bit, but at the same time, I had to look at things a little bit more broadly. And so I think you're putting language to what I have been imagining and maybe had not put words to, that we want our children to be able to be global, right? Because America is not the world.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Right. And Nigeria or Ghana is also not the world. There's there's so many things outside of that. And and I think that if we as parents, as immigrant parents, would even have these conversations with our children, I think that would make such a it would make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

It will really make a difference because I'm happy you say that. Because I have a conversation with somebody, one of my friends, and he was talking about this case need to learn how to speak Nigerian language. I said Nigerian language is the international language. Would that would that language make them culturally? Yes. When you say about culture, you wanted to know how to say it, okay, speak the local dialect. Yeah. Okay, it's good. Yes. But now when you come to the global world, where are you supposed to interact with other people else? Because the advantage you have is the language. Yeah. I I I work with uh this individual over at uh Wall Trade Center in Tacoma. He speaks uh Japanese and he speaks uh Chinese. So he speaks both languages. Right. So he is whenever anything that has to do with trade with Japan, he's the one, he's the go-to, right? Exactly. So when you the kid understands how to speak like Igbo, like uh you know, Ashanti or whatever, okay. Okay, so if he knows, would that go beyond that area? That was the same global presence you're talking about. Because today, if I know how to speak Russia, I speak a very good Russia and I'm not Russian, right? Right, American government will stick out to me. Because that's what happened in Afghanistan. Instead of looking to people that speak that language during the war, so to translate what is being said. Right. So we need to look beyond our conclave. Look beyond and says what can be done in the outside world.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

You know, yeah. But I I prefer the kid learning how to speak Russian, learning how to speak French, learning how to speak this, and how to speak that, because it's an international language a global world.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

Yeah. Yeah. And and and we we we really we don't allow ourselves to think big or think beyond our borders. Yes. And I think part of that is also a result of colonialism, too, right? And so we have parents like you who are really trying hard to to go beyond that. And I wonder if there's any fears that you have when it comes to some of the pressure, for example, that we might be putting on our kids. What are you what's the worry there? What's the concern?

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Well, the concern is that we need to we need to pick and choose what needs to be done.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Because you gotta put into consideration their mental health.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Because if you push these kids a lot, you know, propagate them and say this is what needs to be done. But then because I see somebody like a podcaster, you know, talking about Nigerian parents, this is what they need to do, this is what they need to do. But I think what I advise a lot of parents about African parents is to have conversation with their kids. Yes. Other than imposing. Okay, understand where they're coming from. Sometimes you gotta listen to them.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

So most parents, what we do that we don't even listen to them. We just said, I'll go clean up their room, do this, do this, do that, do that. Whether he said, I'm not feeling good, I'm not feeling fine, or something like that. You know, so that's part of the things that we need to. We need to have a conversation, sit down and talk to them and be able to understand where they are coming from.

SPEAKER_06 23:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

The decisions they are trying to make.

SPEAKER_06 23:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

You know, because here we said in Africa, you are 30 years old, you can still live in your parents' house. Yeah, and when the kid is 18, he's out. Right. Okay. Now, when the kid is out, you're gonna follow him and say all the said that if you have set that pace for them to be able to go through things and be able to understand how things work, that will help, other than imposition. Most of our immigrant parents are imposing. Yes. And when you impose, you do wrong.

SPEAKER_05 23:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

I I I I tell my kid, my my son plays a lot of basketball. And I said to him, I said, bro, you play basketball, that's good.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Okay, do you really call him bro?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah, do you call him bro? Yeah, I call him.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

So I'm kids, you're calling me bro. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm mommy, I'm mommy.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Okay. So I said, if you if you you play basketball. But think about it though. If you get into sports medicine, physical therapy, whatever, and everything else, those individuals that play basketball will be coming to you to help them sustain. So you gotta have a career that will sustain you for a very long time. Because basketball might end after 10 years, five years, seven years. You get injured, nobody's gonna pay. Your contract is down. It's done. But you are the one that's gonna say you wanted to condition in yourself. I'm your guy. I'm your guy. You pay the pay, people are paying you millions for you to now here's that when you start choosing a career, think about it. So you set that pace for them at the beginning, you know, and you said you're a medical doctor, you're this, you that, this is what you would be doing. You know, think about it. Uh-huh. So don't think about something that is gonna say, yeah, I'm no kids that was upset. I want to be a musician, I want to sing this, I want to sing a song, I wanna because they sing in the bathroom. But that does not mean if Japan is gonna sit down and tell you, say, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not something for you. Yeah, if you do S Y Z, yeah, that will help.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

Right. So it's about you know recognizing the the skills that our kids have, right? And also like building that and helping them propel. Propel, that's right. And take off, right? But the thing too is that if you don't have curiosity about the skills that your kids have, you're not going to know. No, you're not going to know. Right. And so I know that for a lot of us as immigrant parents, you know, our kids get out of school, you come home, hey, go and wash your hands, come and eat, come and do your homework, come and do this, come and do this. And then, you know, we're we're putting them into this almost like a box where we have these kids who have routine and that's just it. Right. And I know that we live in an age of technology where the kids are exposed to a lot more tech than we were growing up, right? Maybe I was a little bit kind of just thinking about it, but not as much as right now. And so my my kids are are iPad kids, right? And I know that there's a lot of folks who talk about, oh, you know, you shouldn't give your kids electronics and you know, all of those things. I and I don't agree to that. Right. Yeah, like, you know, like you don't you shouldn't give them this. But then one of the things, and I remember even my dad was saying, you know, they spend so much time on the iPad. And I remember having to explain to him, you realize that the oldest is teaching himself programming.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

You see?

SPEAKER_04 26:30

On here. Yes. And I wouldn't have known if if I hadn't sat down with him to ask, what are you doing on your iPad? Right? What are you doing on here? Right. So there was that curiosity, and that is one of the things that helped us even connect some more. Exactly. Where, you know, I I will ask the middle one too, hey, what are you doing? And he's designing like flags on there, or you know, he's learning all of these different things. And and so I think that what I guess what I'm trying to say is that we as parents also need to be curious about our children, right? Because we have all these fears. If my child doesn't do this, they're not going to succeed, they're gonna be a burden on me, they're gonna be blah, blah. But you even know your kid.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

That's like, do you know your child? That is the most important thing. You have to know your kid, you know, because they said, Oh, I give them this, they might go look into a different side. Well, how are they gonna go to that side if you didn't have a conversation with them and let them know that this is wrong and this is right, this is where you're supposed to be going. So they don't have to divide their distinction, but we don't believe in our kids. So we go by our own mentality. Yeah, and saying the negativity in our mind of what we see on television or the news is gonna propel us right there, and we're starting saying, This is what, this is what. And when you send that to the universe, that's what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

That is exactly what, you know, like that's exactly what's going to happen because you see things on the news, for example, about teenagers and especially and know, especially like the teen years are very trying for a lot of parents, and especially for us also as immigrant parents, too. And you know, you're you're familiar with that because you've you've raised teens, right? And you see things happening on the news, or you hear things happening like in their different schools and all that, and we are always making these assumptions that if they're going to go out that they're they're going to be doing this, they're going to be doing that. And come to find out that that's not even the case. There's so many immigrant children or like second, third gen kids that I talk to whose parents like don't have a clue who they are, right? And they're like, well, you know, my kid is so quiet, he doesn't talk, he doesn't do this, or she's this. And then I'm like, yo, do you realize your your kid is like the kid at school? Like they're the popular kid. Kid, yes. When they are at school, they're getting the fist bumps and the high fives. Like they are a totally different person.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Right. And in the the the there's this other part, and I'll you know, I'll switch conversations here a little bit, but you know, for this newer generation or the younger generation, there's a lot of focus on boundaries, on on mental health, on self-care. I mean, you mentioned, you know, mental health earlier, and you know, me being a therapist, that's always like my my go-to, right? We we we are having more conversations about, you know, therapy. And and I'm wondering for you, as you're seeing the younger generation, like what what is surprising you or what is kind of putting a smile on your face when you think about the younger generation and how maybe they're doing things differently from how we did them.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Well, how much knowledge they have. That's another thing again. Another thing again is the positivity in their life. Oh, yes. Because this case never said I can't do anything. They can do it.

SPEAKER_05 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Because I remember I was telling somebody when I was young, I traveled all the way from Atlanta to Seattle. I was driving a Volvo, an old Volvo. Well, you drove. I drove by yourself, by myself, in the snow. So, and I and I came to someplace in Utah, some um uh Denver, and it was so snowy and I traveled for about an hour or two hours without even know where I'm going. But now I wouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

Well, because at that time too there's no GPS, you're relying on maps.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

No, there's no GPS, and at that time I was younger. And be able to so with all these kids now, they're looking at something, something you might say is a fear factor for them. For you, it's not a fear factor for them. It's not, they have that positivity in them already. Says, I can do anything, right? They're not out there saying I cannot do it. Okay, this and that. Oh yeah, I'll do it. You know, they wanna they don't wanna sky skydiving, they will they wanna do it. But for us now, we say, Oh no, oh, what happens? Why is this? Why is that? Why when you put the why, why in you, yeah, it tends to draw you down a little bit. Yes. But for them, so that positivity in them, that's what I like, that's what put a smile in my friend. That they can't be able to do anything. What you might come in, you just say, Oh, I'm I'm scared of this thing. I'm scared of what about if this thing happened, they go for it.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

They do it, they do it. And and you know what? One one theme that I've also noticed is parents feeling like they don't know their children, and you know, they don't tell me anything. Because when they come and tell you, you come and ask them why, why, how, you know, all this stuff, and then you push them down.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

You push them down, you know. Anytime you have that negativity in them, this is this is what I I told somebody the other day. I said, Hey, you're praying for the kid. The kid is traveling, he's going somewhere. He said, Oh, I pray so that he will not, uh it's not gonna get in that accident or something else gonna happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the bad people is gonna be out of the way.

SPEAKER_05 31:31

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

But he didn't first of all tell the kid, I need you to drive safely. Right. 60 miles per hour. Don't go more than 60 miles per hour. Right. Don't go this, don't go that. Right. Be careful of your environment, be careful when you're driving, how you drive. Right. Not a question of telling because the kid is gonna be when you tell them there, they say, okay, my dad or my mom already prayed for me. Right. I'm gonna be flying because the prayer is there.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

The prayer is going to work the asset. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Something is gonna happen. Right. Nothing is gonna happen. But you the first of all, the kids respect the laws of the land, first of all. They respect the laws that govern them before anything else. Right. So when they have that respect for anything, they say, Don't talk to somebody like that, it's not good. It's not that you're not telling them don't talk to somebody like that because you will not go to heaven or you go to hell. Then they say it is not right. Right. Morally, it's not right, right? That's that's all they need. Right. So that's that's the difference between us and bridging that gap. Yeah for us to we parents to know that you need to spend some time with these kids and talk to them and get to understand where they are coming from. Then you can be able to make that corrective decision on what needs to be done. But no, we don't. We that imposition is killing us a lot. But the younger generation's parent now coming in and saying, okay, nobody says you should be best friends with your daughter or you should be best friends with your son. Right. But the idea is that you guys need to have a conversation that have a relationship. Have a relationship that bothers on tell me what is going on, and I'll tell you this, and I'll tell you that, and I'll advise you. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Yeah. So yeah, but we don't have to be best friends. Like I have my own best friends, right? You know, like I have my own people that I'll go and talk to. You to go and have your own best friends. Right.

SPEAKER_05 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:14

And I also, speaking of parents wanting to do differently, like I also want to be the person that you come to when there is an issue. Right. I want to be the person that you come to when you're having a hard time with your friend. Yes. Right. Or you hear about somebody gossiping about you, or you don't know how to talk to this person about this particular issue, right? And, you know, I think that as parents, too, sometimes we just have this whole like advice-giving culture, and we don't even ask our kids what they're needing. And that's one of the things that I've I've I've learned to do, right? And and I've also been teaching some of the people in my life too, right? Because sometimes when I come to you with a problem, I'm not asking for advice. Sometimes I just need to just verbalize it. I need to just vent and say, But I think that as parents, a lot of times we don't look at our children as human beings, right? We just look at them as this is somebody that I brought into this world.

SPEAKER_05 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

And then that's it. Yeah. And and it dehumanizes them. But if we talked to them and treated them the way that we treat and honor our friends, friends, I think that it would really make a huge difference because then you you you respect them. You want to hear their thoughts. Exactly. You want to explore things with them. You want them to be able to explain to you why they think the way that they think. Right. And in our culture, we we talk about, oh, you don't talk back and you know, I'm I'm not one of your little friends and those kinds of things. And we lose out on an opportunity to connect with our children in that way. Because I I I won't say that I argue with my kids, but I want them to be able to explain themselves. Because at the end of the day, we're teaching communication.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

Right. We are the first place, we are the primary triad for a lot of these kids, for all of these kids, really. And so we have an opportunity to teach them, right? Some of these things, teach them how to communicate, teach them how to make their points, teach them how to argue.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yes, you know. So that's that's one of the good things about raising kids overseas or raising kids in the Western world. You know, you give them that leverage for them to be able to speak their mind. They don't care about relationship, they don't care that you're my best friend, but whatever you do it, right? If you do something wrong, they will they will speak.

SPEAKER_06 35:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

You know, so but we have that culture back home. You're not supposed to speak to your older one like that, you guys spend that. But the older ones be doing something wrong, then the kids are not gonna say anything. Just because they are older. So that is part of the culture that needs to be erased. I don't consider that culture. People need to speak up their mind. Right. Whatever is bothering them, whatever it's doing, they need to speak up. They don't have to do some white lines or theory. They want to because back home, somebody's is doing something. You remember how we say back home? Oh, I'm fine, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Yeah, but they are not, they're not. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Okay, but here the kid says, Okay, my head is hurting. You just hit me in the head, and then you're asking me, how am I going to hold it? Of course I'm hurt. Of course I'm hurt. Right. But back on this, oh yeah, I'm fine. It's okay. God will provide. So, you know. So it's it's God will provide.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

I mean, God is always a provider.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

God is always a provider, but it's it's you gotta get to a point where you said, I'm gonna take the boo by the hand and I'm gonna help myself, then I will go to God. I said, Okay, yeah, you know. But yeah, that's that that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

Yeah, that makes sense. And then I think also for for those who are immigrant children or children of immigration of the second and third gen who might be watching or listening to, there is there is also this part where sometimes we neglect that our parents also grew up in a world very different from ours.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 36:44

Very, very different. And so, in as much as we want them to adjust to us and what our needs are, there's also a level of understanding that we have to offer, right? Yeah. And so if you could speak directly to like the immigrant children, right? The second gen, the third gen, you know, all those whose parents have come from overseas have had them here, for example. If you could speak to them and the ones, especially who are feeling like that pressure, the guilt, you know, all of those things, trying to make their parents proud while trying to also choose things that make sense for them and the world that they live in now, you know, what do you want them to understand about the love behind their parents' sacrifices, also?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Well, uh first of all, I would like to let them know that they should understand the parents one bit. At least they come from a different culture, a different concept of reasoning. Okay. And another thing again is that they we might not approach it a little bit the way they so they they like it.

SPEAKER_05 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

But every parent, especially my grandparents, always want the best for their kids. Yeah, no matter what the situation is. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So because you know, I see kids and say, You don't like me, you don't treat me anyhow, you're just gonna do this now. Yeah, they always want it to help. Right. So the idea is that understand where they are coming from. Your success is their success. Yeah, so if you become an important personality, it is on the family. Yeah, they'll be proud of it. Because immigrant parents are always dependent on their case, that the kiss make them proud. Yeah. Because that is one thing that you know motivates them. So for the younger ones, and I'm letting them know that if you have an issue or if you don't understand anything, sit down with your parents. If your parents is behaving somehow, understand the fact they come from a different culture. Yes, they come from a different whole in the beginning. That will still manifest because they don't they will not change overnight. But if you continue having realizing or having that conversation that they are don't want the best for you, yeah. And that your success is dependent on them, and they are so proud. And they will go out there because you know, back home, like now, you know, you come in now when somebody says your mom, they would say, Has Phoebe done? Yeah, has this, how that? Right, right, right. Now she would go on and say, Oh, Phoebe's this, Phoebe's that, Phoebe's doing Phoebe had all this practice and everything. It's not she's not talking about herself, she's talking about Phoebe right now. Right, right. Okay, so immigrant parents always want that. Yeah, you know, they want that, it's not over here. You see Joe, hey, has a kid. Oh, he's in knuckle, and I haven't seen him in a long time. You know, so individualistic, yeah, you know, self-centered. But here we're talking about the family, the high context culture. Yeah. So it's all about family. Yeah. When your family's grown, when your family's doing doing well, you are doing well. Yeah, you know, if they come to you.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

So and I mean that that leads to this this episode's, you know, bridge the gap tip. You know, every time I I try to like leave a little tip for both sides, you know, and so you're you're mentioning a great thing here, you know, for for the children, having those conversations with their parents. Ask your parents, talk to your parents, ask them what they sacrificed, right? Talk to them about their history, what was happening in their lives, what are they afraid of? What what how how was life different from for for them? Yeah, we get tired of the same stories over and over again. But there's a reason why they're sharing those stories with us. There's a reason why they're talking to us about these different things and and the fact that they had to carry water on their head in a bucket for several miles, right? I think that sometimes we forget that they're trying to give us a a frame of context, right? Like there's there's something to help us to see, hey, this is what they did all this so that you didn't have to do the you know, because I even think about my my kids right now and I think about them like trying to carry a bucket on their heads, and I'm like, oh god, like no, I wouldn't want my kid to go through that, right? And I I did it because Ghana, water, right? And so for for also the tip for the for the parents also is for for us, because I'm a parent myself, but for us to really get to know our children and also talk to them about some of the fears that we have. And and one of the fears that I know a lot of times we have, and maybe you might relate to this, is that our kids are not going to be successful. And one day when the Lord calls us home, what is our legacy? Because exactly right, what have we left? And yes, but at the same time, we don't talk to our kids about that to help them understand, like, yes, I might be talking to you about going to medical school because I want you to be successful, I want you to have a certain level of financial stability when when I'm no longer around, right? Because it's not going to be every day that you're going to be able to call me and say, hey, can I get a hundred dollars? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Right?

SPEAKER_04 41:32

Can you give me some pounds? You know what I'm saying? And and unfortunately, we don't know how to communicate that because I don't think we even understand that fear ourselves as parents. Yeah. I don't think that we get we give our ourselves a chance to to really do that. So if this conversation resonated with you, I would absolutely encourage you to share this with the immigrant parents that you know, the immigrant kids that you know, everybody out there who needs to hear this conversation so that we can continue to to bridge that gap, right? And and make sure that even though we're living in what feels like two separate worlds, that we still have a sense of togetherness because we're community. We need each other, right? And so I really appreciate you talking about this. Are there any like final thoughts before we we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Before we wrap up, I'll I will I will uh advise the parents, on the other hand, to quit recounting what you sacrifice for them for just at least sometimes they'll they've had it so many times over and over again because I know some gentlemen say, Oh, this guy got oh this oh she got kimor, oh yeah, this and this and that. But don't quit recounting. Yeah, start having an honest one-on-one conversation with them, yeah, and being able to say, This is what I did. If you tell the story one time, just leave it alone. Yeah, you know, when they mess up or do something wrong, always advise them on what needs to be done and how to reassess themselves back to it and readjust themselves, yeah. And be able to say, okay, this is the recovering process. Yeah, I need to do this so that I can be better. Yeah, but don't just if you continue doing that, then it's a push-up. Yeah, so when you can you continue pushing them away. Yeah. Because every time you go to, oh yeah, it's gonna talk about how this, this, this, and that's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

It's like white noise at some point.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Exactly. Yeah. So that's the advice to you know, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, and thanks for for coming over and having this conversation with me. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, I think that, you know, we we we've talked about a lot of different perspectives. I've left with something, a couple of things to even think about myself. And so I appreciate your your openness and also, you know, just being the cool, cool dad that you are to your kids too. I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

I appreciate it. All right. All right.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Well, thank you all so much for for joining us again for another episode. If you have any thoughts or ideas, any topics that you're like, hey, Phoebe, you should talk about this one too. You know where to find me. You can find me over at Instagram or on Instagram. At Instagram. At on whatever the case is, right? On the IG. Yeah. You can slide into my DMs respectfully. Okay. At Phoebe Brackle. Wait, no, it's Dr. Phoebe Brackel.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Phoebe Brackel.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

Dr. Phoebe Brackle. Right. But then on my website, it's Phoebe Brackel LMFT.com. Right. Sometimes I forget the doctor part, you know, because but anyway, I have people in my life like you who always remind me about that. Please leave your comments. Make sure you hit subscribe, and we'll be back with another episode next time. Take care. So guess what? We are opening up some slots for a sponsorship. If you've been watching or listening to this podcast and you've been enjoying it as much as we have been enjoying recording it, I would love to invite you to consider sponsoring us. You can reach out to me at a consult at Phoebe BrackleLMft.com. That's a consult at Phoebebrackle LMFT.com. We have a wide range when it comes to our audience, and we would love for our audience to hear about you, your service, or your product. Thank you so much.