You Sent Money Home Again? | The Financial Guilt Many Immigrant Children Carry

Have you ever felt guilty spending money on yourself?

Do you panic when your savings account drops below a certain number?

Do you secretly feel responsible for making your parents’ sacrifices “worth it”?

If you’re an immigrant child, this episode might hit a little too close to home.

In this powerful and deeply relatable conversation, Dr. Phebe sits down with money trauma therapist Diana Mena, LICSW of Esperanza Counseling & Consulting PLLC, to unpack the hidden emotional cost of growing up in immigrant families where money was never just money.

Here’s the tea:

• Why so many immigrant children tie their worth to achievement and financial success

• The guilt of saying “no” when family members need help

• What happens when children become the family’s retirement plan

• The emotional impact of watching parents sacrifice everything while still sending money home

• How financial parentification shapes adulthood

• Why setting boundaries can feel like betraying your culture

• How to support family without losing yourself

Whether you grew up hearing “Do you know how much we sacrificed for you?” or you’ve ever felt torn between honoring your family and living your own life, this conversation will leave you feeling seen, understood, and less alone.

Because healing money trauma isn’t about abandoning your culture.

It’s about learning that your worth is not measured by how much you produce, provide, or repay.

🎙️ Listen now and send this episode to the sibling, cousin, or fellow immigrant child who became the family financial planner before they were old enough to open a bank account.

Learn more about Diana and her amazing work at www.esperanzacounselingpllc.com and follow her on IG at esperanzapllc

Send your questions and topic ideas to consult@phebebrakolmft.com or slide in my DM's on Instagram @drphebebrako

Remember we can only grow our audience with your support. Please share with your community!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Rough calculations, it takes about three generations of stability for our DNA to rewire or reset.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Can you see that again?

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Yes. So unfortunately, it takes about three generations of stability, financial stability, our needs being met in order for like our DNA to turn off all of the survival skills that it had to turn on.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

So what you're trying to say is that it's gonna take a while.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

I'm I'm just thinking about my kids.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Absolutely. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I'm thinking about my future grandkids. And wow. Therapist, sandwich immigrant, daughter, and someone who has absolutely opened up a banking app or two and whispered, You send how much money home this month?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Like, what is happening over here?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Now, today's episode is called You Sent Money Home Again. And before some of the immigrant parents listening start, you know, preparing a strongly worded WhatsApp voice note to send my will to send my father's way. Please just chill, okay? Relax, okay? So this episode is not about disrespecting or sacrifice, you know, like making it seem like sacrificing is bad or whatever. It's more about understanding the emotional weight that many immigrant children carry around, right? When we're talking about responsibility, we're talking about money, we're talking about guilt, we're talking about survival, right? Because for many of us, money was never just money. Okay. We're gonna talk about some, you know, money, money, money, money. Okay. So raise yourself. Money was always a proof of love, it was a proof of gratitude, it was a proof that you were not selfish, right? Money was in some ways proof that the sacrifice that your parents made worked. And some of us grew up hearing the sentiment of, do you know how much I sacrificed for you? Right. Or back home, they were struggling and they're still struggling. And you also hear things like, you have opportunities that we never had. And we're hearing things like, one day you hear from us, and you know, we'll be gone. So you might as well just really take care of us. And then suddenly your childhood is turning into some sort of like quiet, unpaid internship for future family responsibility, right? There's no onboard aid, there's no, there's no HI department, it's just vibes and inshallah, and you know, generational pressure, right? So today we're going to be talking about money trauma in immigrant families from the child perspective, especially, and talking about the guilt, the pressure, the resentments that nobody wants to admit because we know that this is such a difficult and sensitive topic. And we also want to talk about how healing can happen without us abandoning our culture and our community. So I am really, really excited because I have a really special guest on here today, and she specializes in this exact work. This is her jam. Okay, so today's guest is Diana, and I will have Diana introduce herself and tell us about who she is and her work and the fact that, you know, just a little bit of a stepping in front of you a little bit. Your work focuses on money trauma, especially within the immigrant community. I know that we talk about money trauma, it's around, it's it's conversational and everything. But what makes Diana special and the work that you're doing is that you're focusing on people who look like us and people who have shared experiences with us, right? You know, communities of color, people of the global majority. So we're gonna talk about survival mindset. We're gonna talk about some financial guilt. We'll talk about gratification, feelings of obligations, even boundaries. Whew, boundaries, the that dreaded B-word, right? And why, you know, immigrant children feel physically anxious when they spend money on themselves, myself included. You know, it's like you're spending money on what? Coffee? What? Diana, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 4:37

Hi, gracias, gracias, gracias. Thanks for having me here. Yeah. Um, my name is Diana Mena. So it's actually Spanish pronunciation, and that's part of my rebellion against white supremacist capitalist patriot. Okay, I like that. Yeah, me too. I love it so much more. It's so much more meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just welcome to my joy work. Thank you for having me. Yeah. I love talking about this topic. I love talking to our people about this topic because money healing for me is about financial liberation, but also like healing backwards and forwards.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Uh, so as we heal our money stuff, we heal our ancestors and we also heal our descendants. And as we heal individually, we heal the collective. So I really believe that. And in terms of my origin story, I'm first Jenni Karawense. For those of you who don't know, that's a country in Central America. It's it's the center of the North and the South. And that's really important because as I've been reclaiming money and financial liberation, I realized that we come, at least my people come from a long line of trade and commerce between the North and the South. And so reclaiming traditional practices of money and relating to money and resource. But I started out as a clinical social worker. Okay. Okay. I'm first in Nicaraguan, so raised in South Seattle, felt all the pressure as the eldest daughter to succeed, to do well in school, to get a good job. And when I decided to study my undergrad in sociology, my mom was like, What the fuck is that? Like in Nicaraguan culture, you can either be a doctor, a lawyer, a nurse, or a teacher. Like there's nothing else.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

You know, in a lot of the African communities, too, those are the options, right? You throw in lawyer, architect, and these days, you know, tech.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah. So we have that in common for sure.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Yes. So when I was growing up, tech wasn't around, but like, so I dropped the news on my mom. She was so proud of her daughter going to undergrad. And then I told her I'm gonna study sociology, and like that was a thing. And I just had to move forward in this system that I didn't really understand. And it was the first of all the things. And I remember going back for my master's in social work and really thinking, this is the first time that I'm going to school for myself.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Um, and then I went straight to like, how do I heal myself and how do I heal my community? Let me do a trauma specialty. And I did that for about 10 years clinically, like working with first gen or BIPOC activists and social justice workers. Um and I love that work. And after 10 years, I realized that that was my survivor work, my survival work. And my son was born and he came into the world like during multiple genocides. Um, so much violence and so much trauma on a systemic and interpersonal level. But he came into the world smiling.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

And when I saw him smiling, I was like, Diana, maybe you were a joyful person once. Oh. And I remember somebody saying, I've never met a happy social worker, and that was so true at that point.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Wow. Yeah. Really?

SPEAKER_04 7:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Huh. That is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I've actually never heard somebody verbalize that.

SPEAKER_04 7:54

Really? Yeah. Me neither, until this person did for me. And I was like, oh, how do I become a joyful, happy social worker? And the thing that made me happy was talking about money and financial liberation.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Wow. That is that is really amazing to hear, especially because money and finances are very complicated. A lot of us avoid opening up our banking apps, myself included. I got a little notification this morning about a letter in one of my credit card accounts, and my heart sunk. And did I open it up? No. No. I was like, mm-mm. And you know what's interesting? I think even the companies are starting to realize how much stress finances bring to us. And so there was a little preview of the letter. They said, Oh, this letter is about dot dot dot. I was like, Yeah, I know what it is, but trigger warning. Yes, a trigger warning, right? And and also, like, you know, I think a lot of immigrant children like myself, we don't even realize that we have money trauma because financially struggling was normalized for us, right? It was just this everyday thing. We struggle. Life is struggle, life is hard. And just kind of like what you're talking about with the social work piece, you know, a happy, joyous social worker is not necessarily something that is normalized, right? So, how do you how do you define money trauma?

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Yeah, I was thinking about it and I kind of thought about writing it out to give an official definition. And I I think the way that it'll resonate the most is it's like all the shit we have around money. And to layer that with both our personal experiences, but also our familial experience and our systemic experiences. Um, of financial exploitation, wage theft, and parentification and having to grow up and read letters that we weren't supposed to at 10 or 11. And it was actually funny because this morning I got notice of being delinquent with my Washington State annual report. And it's always the one I miss every year. I tell myself, don't forget this one thing. And I don't understand why systems don't make our lives easier and just do it when you file your state taxes.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

It would make sense. It would make sense. But then how will they connect all the delinquency fees and all those things?

SPEAKER_04 10:10

And how would they give us a life of ease and peace? You know? So I freaked out. I freaked out this morning, and it just made me think about my poor nine-year-old self who had to do all this translation and how those notifications for me, like, I'm not receiving them as an adult version of myself. I'm receiving them as a child version of myself. Yeah. And all the pressure and all the stress.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

And it was just like me having to sign, sign a thing, like read over my address and submit the thing and pay the thing. But it it becomes such a big monster because of that money trauma that I'm describing. And the money trauma of being first gen and the added later of having immigrant parents who don't know the system, yeah, who are stressed and struggling and know uh generations of struggle and tell you things like life is hard, life is painful, and yeah, all of that becomes kind of the mess that we're we're left to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah. And and actually that that is something I was going to even ask you about. You know, what makes immigrant money trauma different? And you're already talking about some of these things, right? The parentification, being exposed to things that we had no business being exposed to, having to be the translator, the different hats that you're wearing as an immigrant, right? And having to exist between these like two different places, these two different realities of your parents' reality around money, and then what it actually looks like here for you growing up and seeing all of these different things that your parents can't even explain to you because they probably don't have an understanding of it. Who? Now, how much how much of this do you think is rooted in in survival versus culture?

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Oh whoa. I think I well, it makes me think about Rasma Menekim, who talks about like, I'm not gonna say the quote perfectly, but just like the farther along one experiences trauma, the more cultural it becomes. And I can't help but think like it's not our cur culture. I don't think it's our lineage, I don't think it's our inheritance, I don't think it's what our ancestors want for us. And so I I don't see that as part of the culture. I see it more as a like systemic reality.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yes, that's the word, systemic, right? We I imagine that if our ancestors walked into a shop and they had to pick different things and and and design their lives, I don't think that they would walk in there and pick, oh, financial struggle right here. Let me see, give me that jar right there, right? Yeah, it's not something that they would have picked, right? And it feels like the system has been systemically like designed against folks like like us and people who have shared the lived experiences with us. And and it it's sad, it's heartbreaking to come to that place of realization. And I think that you know, even for some of us who may have grown up financially stable-ish, whatever that looks like, I'm not like speaking for myself, but grew up financially stable that there might still be some like parts of money trauma that exist just because of the bodies that we were born into.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Also, absolutely, absolutely. So, in actually rough calculations, it takes about three generations of stability for our DNA to rewire or reset. Can you say that again? Yes. So unfortunately, it takes about three generations of stability, financial stability, our needs being met in order for like our DNA to turn off all of the survival skills that it had to turn on.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

So, what you're trying to say is that it's gonna take a while.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I'm I'm just thinking about my kids.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Absolutely. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

I'm thinking about my future grandkids. And wow. So when we say that we're even doing this work, not just for us, that is really true because this is this is generational. Whew, and you know what, like a lot of immigrant kids grew up also simultaneously hearing we don't have money, and at the same time seeing their parents sending money home, right? Going to Western Union and um Oh my gosh, yes. What's the other one? MoneyGram.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Right. And these days where we we have all these apps too. One of one of the apps that I use is Remitly. And I think there's a couple of other ones too. I think there's like Tap Tap Sandor. There's so many of these. And so, you know, we're hearing our parents saying this, but then we also see them giving and and sending money home and giving money to family members. And and as kids, I I just like remember as a kid being really confused. How is it that you're complaining about money? How is it that you're saying that we don't have enough? How is it that you don't want to pay for me to go on this field trip? And yet my uncle came over and you just I saw you handing him a handing him a lot of cash, right? We can't afford school photos, we can't afford this and that. And before I realize you're doing all this, I can't help but wonder what kinds of like emotional messages children internalize from that.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Oh my gosh, talk about money trauma, right? Like that feels traumatic in my body as you're sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

Um and it's hard not to get like emotional about it because it's like there's this tension, right? Of we were raised with these collectivist values in which we take care of our people.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

But we also like, I don't know if it's patriarchy or what, where we also are socialized to put ourselves last. Yes. Or take care of ourselves last. And so from a very young age, that teaches you, right? Like, uh, my school photos don't matter. Like this trip doesn't matter, like this nice buying myself nice clothes doesn't matter because like this collectivist value system is more I gotta sit up straight for this one. More crucial to the survival, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah. And so I think that's the beginning of a lot of the feelings of you're not important that we grow up with, where we prioritize everybody else but but us. Exactly. Right? We we made jokes about moms not buying stuff for their kids anymore. Like, don't buy any more toys for your kids, go get yourself a new bra. Because you've been wearing the same bra for the longest time. Yeah. Go get a new bra. Okay. But but you know, we made jokes about it, but that is so that is so real because we saw our parents sacrificing like that. And unfortunately, that also gave us a message that we didn't matter, or that we had to kind of prove certain things, right? Like we had to prove our existence or or that sort of thing. And then in in a lot of collectivist cultures where like, you know, many, many immigrant children silently become the financial contingency plan before they even understand what a retirement plan is, right? So I've seen you giving money to all these family members. You didn't want to do things for me, and now I'm supposed to be your retirement plan, right? What is financial parentification? You know, on that note, is that some is that a term that you're familiar with or a term that you consider or think about at all?

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Yeah, I think again, the tensions, right? The conflicts for me, because I I really see this work through an anti-colonial, anti-capitalist lens. So I don't like using like terms like parentification. It just brings up so much shame towards parents, elders, and also towards us, and then also us who are parenting the next generation of first-gen, second-gen kids.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

True, true, true.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Um, but I think it teaches us a lot about responsibility and priorities. And that responsibility is to each other more so than to ourselves. So it's it's an external thing versus pouring into ourselves. And um yeah, I feel that deeply as a first gen eldest daughter.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

And as an eldest daughter too.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Yeah. So it's so layered, right? Like to unpack all of this. But I think, yeah, we grow up too fast, too responsible, too much responsibility. There's an expectation from our parents that we're gonna continue doing what they did.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

And when we say no or set boundaries or like don't want that, then it becomes like this very intense familial but also cultural tension.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:56

I've been struggling lately because like my mom was the first person to leave her family from Nicarawa, and she has raised almost three generations of family members. Like, not only did she feel responsibility to her parents, but also to all of her siblings and all of their children, and now they're children. Wow. And so it's just interesting to see, like, she's it's emotional for me because um she's retiring in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

And at 65, she's still worried about like these generations of children back home.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

And I'm like, I don't want that. I I want an easeful life where I still care about the collective and I still move in generosity, but I also honor each person's dignity in caring for themselves. And yeah, I want her to spend her money on herself.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Wow. Just hearing you talk about that pulled on a lot inside me too, just thinking about my parents. Right. My my parents being at the age at which they're at, where they're, you know, late 60s. And and I think about the different pressures that they hold.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Right. And I'm thinking about your mom.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

And what is she what is she going to do? And when was the last time she even treated herself?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Never.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Did she put anything away for her retirement? Did she put enough aside to take care of her medical bills? To pay her bills, like to just say, let me go out here and and treat myself to dinner and not cook today.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Yeah. Well, let me tell you about my money trauma. So my mom is actually a saver. My mom actually like drilled that into me around saving, saving for a rainy day, saving just in case. And somehow she managed that to do that while also sending all this money back home.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

And so it's a very unique experience in terms of a lot of my first gen uh friendships, in which like my mom has taken care of herself. Okay. And so the weight is less on me and my sister.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Um, but but, but, but, but, but.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

There's always a but.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

What ended up happening for me is that I had to unlearn saving.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

I had to unlearn saving because my mom, she is retiring and she is taken care of, but the pleasure is missing. The joy is missing. Like it's all like wrapped up in responsibility. And that's why I brought up her retirement, you know?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Because joy, pleasure isn't like she's working on it, but it's not a thing. Right. She has to unlearn like some inheritances and it's not a priority for her. Yeah, because there's always like hunger back home. Yeah. There's always struggle back home, or somebody needs something.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

Um, and she just keeps changing that something with each generation. So I'm just like, I, I, I wish. But so then I had to unlearn struggle around saving because some people are intense spenders, like um, can't hold on to money. I was like, let me hoard like a squirrel just in case.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

And um you're on my street right here. You're on my street. You're on my street.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

My A, B, C, and D. But part of it has been like, Diana, you can afford to go out and have dinner. You can afford to buy yourself bras. You can go to the spa every now and then. You can um take care of yourself. And there has to be some ancestral healing through that.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Wow. You know, so so for those of us listening and watching, Deanna and I met last month at a conference and she gave a phenomenal presentation about money trauma, which is where I was like, oh my goodness, this is something that we need to talk about, right? And as you were presenting, I was sitting there thinking about myself and thinking about the fact that for years after I opened up my prayer practice when it was just me, I wasn't paying myself. Because I, like the squirrel, I felt like I needed to hoard and save and save because that was drilled in my head by my parents. You need to always save. And as I've gotten older, I started understanding even where that came from. Right. Because one, we are a very cash-based society in Ghana where I'm from. And, you know, we don't do a whole lot of credit, like, you know, credit card, like we buy things on credit where it's like, hey, can I get this coffee? Come back tomorrow and I'll give you the money. And we have like that system of trust and then like that sort of thing. But that aside, I remember my father having to, my father was a marine engineer. He's a retired marine engineer. And he got stranded on the ocean years ago. And I remember my family like hitting this really huge financial stress because there was no money coming in. Because my dad was stranded on the ocean in a ship and we didn't even know if he was alive for a while. And the narrative that I remember hearing from people is like, well, didn't y'all save? Didn't y'all save? Like, how do you not have savings to pay for your kids' tuition? How do you not have savings to pay for this and that? And I think through that shame, my parents got into this hyper-saving mode and then transferred that to me.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

And so how is it that I'm working, right, as a prior practice owner and I'm not paying myself? And so I go to therapy and I'm talking about it. And I remember my therapist said, Phoebe, what do you mean you don't pay yourself? I said, Well, I just need to save the money. She said, Save it for what? I said, Well, you know, you you know what? I mean, stuff. Save it for stuff, save it for a rainy day. And she said, and she challenged me. Yeah. Right. And shout out to all the therapists out here who are challenging their clients around these kinds of things because we don't even realize it. For me, it was a badge of honor. But she was trying to help me understand how much of a disservice I was doing to myself by working and not compensating myself for it. And and and so as you were presenting, I remember just thinking about that. And I can only imagine the number of immigrants who are also doing these kinds of things, like, oh, well, I have a full-time job, so I'm gonna just save this and say this and say this and say this. And a dear friend of mine passed away years ago, fresh in in a new job, or she's about to start a new job or whatever, and had saved all this money and she liked it. And I think for me, over there, like a switch kind of turned in some ways. And at the same time, you know, like I just also think about myself when I have this all all this like panic if I'm not feeling productive, and and even the topic of rest, right? And it's this like, ooh, am I going to am I proving my worth? What what like what what am I doing to show for myself right now? And so as you're speaking and talking about your mom, you know, heading towards and also like congrats to your mom. Give her my give her my congratulations, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

But I also think about all these things that end up getting passed to us consciously or unconsciously.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm actually we're we're packed and ready to go on a flight to Austin. Okay. And I'm taking the whole crew.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 26:08

Which I'm like, why did you do this? But also like I did it with so much intention, right? Because I knew my mom wasn't gonna like book a bougie hotel hotel for herself. I knew that um she wasn't gonna celebrate this big deal. And um, I was like, oh, it could be that. You know, I could be that, and I could go to this conference that my heart is really longing for.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

See, boom.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

And I'm bringing these two kids along who have hotel as a part of their vocabulary.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Look at that.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

I am so proud of us. I know. I am so, so proud of us. I I I love that for us, and like you, like, you know, I take my mom on some of these conferences, some of these different trips, because I have three kids, and you know, sometimes I want to show them the world and and all that stuff. And, you know, my my middle son sometimes, you know, when are we going back to Hawaii? Like, sir, you think we just go to Hawaii? You think you just they really do?

SPEAKER_04 26:57

It's a whole different ballgame for them, you know? And I love how we know we've been healing.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

You know what I'm saying? I love that for us. And and a few years ago, I remember taking my family, my my parents and the kids took them on a vacation to to Arizona, you know, this beautiful resort and everything. And I remember my dad complaining on the way there, like, why are we traveling on Christmas Day? Why are we doing this? What's the point of this? Isn't this a waste of money? And then when he gets there, he sees the sweet, oh, this is nice. This is yeah, and I'm just thinking to myself, if you would only trust me sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

Well, it's not even about that. It's like they're prepared for the worst thing happening. Yeah. And so they don't like, I mean, I still do that a generation out, right? Like, of like, this is gonna be really hard. I have to pack two car seats.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Like, what the hell was I thinking?

SPEAKER_04 27:40

And um it's it's like preparing for the worst. Like, yeah, just in case this doesn't happen or just in case it doesn't work out, like I'm not even gonna like celebrate or enjoy myself until I'm there and it's a real thing. And then something happens where your inner child or their inner child is allowed to come out and see, like, oh my gosh, like how far we've come.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

I know, I know. I think it was maybe 2019. I remember being pregnant with my second son, and we went to Silverwood. And that was my parents' first time at like a water park theme park kind of situation. And I'm seeing them coming down the water slide, and it's such a core memory. And and every time summer comes around, you know, I'm always thinking about how can I, because driving out there, no, we're not gonna do that again. But I'm always thinking about how we can incorporate some of this fun for our parents, especially. Like the kids, I feel like the kids are fine, but yeah, I think for me, I'm starting to really prioritize showing my parents fun, showing them a good time. Like last year, I took my dad to Vegas for the first time and he about lost his mind. He's like, oh, this is nice, this is nice, you know. Like, you know, I just see him like just his eyes. He was like a little kid, his eyes are just bright and like just walking around. And and I think that I look at that as a gift. Yeah. I look at that as a as a gift to to my parents to be able to have them see that, hey, we can go on vacation and do these fun things, and we can also come home and our bills are paid and everything is fine. Because that was my one of my mom's biggest concerns when I told her I was jumping into my practice full time. The first thing she said was, Are we gonna be okay? Right. And in my mind, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just taking a step of faith. I don't know if we're gonna be okay. And look at us like what, five, six years, five years down the line. We're okay. We're more than okay.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's so many directions I can go, but I think this is why it's so important that you learn to pay yourself, Phoebe.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yes, yes, I've been doing that. I've been I've been doing that, I've been trying hard. And it's it's speaking of, I think this is why we also have to be in community around this work, too. Because I've surrounded myself with community who will hold me accountable for that. My my my exec my executive assistant, right? You know, she's checking me on that. I have a a friend who is my bookkeeper and and you know, CFO, and she's also on my behind. Like, hey, like we just had this conversation about I think you need to pay yourself a little bit more. And I'm just thinking to myself, oh God, what if I take all this money and then there's no money left for the business? And and so she starts like spelling out and even got her brother also involved. And her brother's like, well, let's take a look at the account and and do the math. And he was right. Yes, yes, Ian, you were right, you were right, you were right. And and at the same time, she also understood. She was like, That's your money trauma showing up right there. You're afraid to pay yourself. Yeah. And I'm just like, well, but what if the team needs it? What if the team needs what if the team needs it? Because I'm so focused on taking care of everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I'm so focused on taking care of my team, making sure that they're okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

And then at the same time, like, well, what about me?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Right? So, so let me, let me, let me just move on a little bit here because I feel like I'm gonna get emotional about this because it's such a heavy thing.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

And and I want to ask, you know, how does that survival mindset, how does it show up in later in relationships and when we become adults, outside of this example that I just gave you of not paying myself?

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

I mean, so I just did my money medicina for clinicians workshop last Friday. And in that workshop, I invite clinicians, practitioners, people who have clients to sit with their money trauma, their money wounds, and how it's activated by their client work and their business. Nothing activated my business wounds more than starting my business. Like nothing activated my money trauma more than that.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

And you shared about not paying yourself. I learned about being a bad boss to myself and how exploitative I was and how much I demanded of myself and how like I expected myself to be protect productive 24-7 and just all the things I had to unlearn. But nothing brings that up more than starting your own business, going out there, taking that leap of faith, but also bringing in clients who mirror your shit to you.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_04 32:01

Because the way we talk to our clients is how we talk to ourselves about money.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

And so if we don't look at those wounds, then like they're gonna show up. They're gonna show up in whether or not we charge late fees, whether or not we raise our rates, whether or not we pay ourselves. And yes. Um, it was just so beautiful to hold that circle with these clinicians, like navigating our origin stories of survival and money trauma, and then how they're showing up now that we're professionals with these degrees, but we're still acting like the nine-year-olds, 10-year-olds, like who struggled. Yeah. I actually had a clinician get mad at me in the most beautiful way, right? Because there's all this talk about thriving, thriving, thriving. And I just I was like really honest as I don't know if thriving's gonna be for us. Like, and that's hard to receive, right? Um, because like I said, it takes three generations. Like, I think we're already experiencing the pockets of ease. But I don't know about you, but I'm I still feel like I'm white knuckling so much of my business, so much of my money, like is still like there's so much anxiety and and fear and scarcity. Yes. And so I don't consider that thriving. I consider thriving so like my great-grandchildren who like hopefully if I raise my children well and teach them about money and do all of my healing work, they're gonna be good. But that would that's hard to receive. It is. Um, but I I'm okay with it because I see how far we've come. We're getting there.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah. We're getting there. It's not, it's not perfect, it's not wrapped up in a bow. And we maybe we get to define what thriving looks like to us.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

Absolutely. We're making it all up as we go.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Because nobody has lived this life that we're living the way that we're living it. And so we're very new to it. And I and I and that's one of the things that I have to remind myself of when I am struggling or I'm being hard on myself. I just tell myself, Phoebe, you are living a life that nobody taught you to live. Yeah. Right. You, I found out, you know, my my grandmother, she was an entrepreneur and everything like that. And unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to have those kinds of conversations with her. So I don't really have anybody guiding me within my family with when it comes to this kind of stuff. So I have to remind myself of that, where I have to just like challenge some of these things and do a lot of that self-talk.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Right. And and as you're talking, I'm like, yeah, thriving. Like, what is and for me, one of the ways in which I knew that I was thriving was I was able to take a day off. Right. And at the same time, I'm still like sneakily having work conversations.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And again, back to the topic of like community, I'm also letting people know I don't work on Mondays. So then if people get an email from me, it's like, well, I thought you didn't work on Mondays. Why are you sending emails? And then it's like people are there to hold me accountable. Right. And this, you know, there's a part that we don't also talk about really openly because it feels like taboo, right? Because and and it's this reality that some of us as immigrant children feel some sort of like resentment, right? And and we're exhausted. And one of the questions that I I was I've asked myself over time is, you know, how we as children can continue to love our parents so deeply and feel burdened, right? Like I think about you and I think about your mom and what's gonna come after retirement.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Yeah. Like how how do we do that?

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Yeah, you know, I've I've had to reframe it, and part of that is through my work with ancestral healing and family constellations. Um it's rather than seeing my mom as a burden or or my parents as a responsibility, like when you can put what belongs to them, like give it back to them, right? It it changes things because then I have choice, then I have agency and sovereignty over deciding what do I want to contribute.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Ooh.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

Like how do I want to do this and how often? And I can move in my like core ethic of generosity.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

But the difference is responsibility burden placed on you, expected of you, demanded of you versus choice and agency.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

And and one of the things that I talk to my clients about when it comes to like money, for example, and boundaries around that is I'm not going to be the one to come tell you, no, absolutely, why are you giving your parents money? Right. Because, like you said, you know, there's that core value. And so maybe if you're doing $300 a month and you're realizing that this is really cutting into your budget and everything that you have, if you have a budget, some of us struggle with budgets and things like that. But if you're if you're having a hard time with that, what would it look like for us to have a conversation and say, hey, could I do too, could I do 250? You know, like I need to do 250 moving forward, right? And how can we work around that instead of saying, absolutely, because if you told me like stop giving money to, whoo, what? Huh? Like, no, this is this is how I show love. This is this is what I do, right? I take care of my parents. I do this, right? And and I think that some of our fellow clinicians when we think about boundaries, sometimes that's one of the things where like if you're not working with a clinician who understands and values your culture, they might be like, Well, why are you stressing about giving money to your brothers?

unknown 37:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Like, why, why are you? So I guess, you know, maybe like one of the final questions I'm going to ask is how how do adult children navigate parents who are continuing to like expect that ongoing financial support.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

Yeah, I'm not perfect at this. I I always say that healing money is forever. Um, so I just I shared about like how I'm gonna relate to my mom, right? Like my mom, there's been reciprocity. With my dad, on the other hand, oh my gosh. So he lives out of state and they got divorced when I was really young.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

And my mom's really been the breadwinner, the financial supporter. Um, and my my mom saves. That's important to differentiate for me. My dad can't hold on to money.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

I see.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

And it's not because he isn't hardworking, it's because he's generous to fault to his own detriment. Sounds like somebody I know. So he, yeah, they're two extremes. And I'm like, no wonder I struggle with feast or famine because like um I have the two opposites of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yes, yes and you've seen it live.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

I have, I've lived it in my body. But so my dad has made some poor choices, like hasn't taken care of himself, and the reciprocity isn't necessarily there. So I had I was recently postpartum with my son, and then I get a text from him demanding a high amount of money. And it it just like, what the what the just where did that come from? Yes. No, how are you, Iha? Like, no, how's the baby? No, how are you, like, how are you navigating postpartum? How are you navigating too? Like, none of that. It wasn't, there was no cushion. It was just like, send me this amount of money.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

Um, and I my choice in that moment was to ignore it. Um, and I ignored it. And it's not always black and white, right? But like I randomly saw some pictures of him when he was young, and my dad really cared about what he looked. He looked really handsome. And I'm gonna get emotional again, but he he really cared about how he looked. And it was a sharp contrast to how he's living now without money. And um, I was just like, my heart grew a little tender, and I was like, let me send him some money.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

So I sent it to him, and I in my head, I'm like, oh, I hope he treats himself to something nice. I hope he buys himself something nice, like goes to lunch, which is my what I think is nice. And he sends me this message and he goes, Diana, me salvaste de una crisis. Diana, you saved me from a crisis. And I was like, Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. So no matter how much money I send to this man, there's always gonna be a crisis.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

And so I have to make choices in which, like, I want to move with my generous heart and send it when I'm moving in that generosity. That's not gonna be a monthly thing, probably. Not now, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, I I could see that. I could see that. And also, might I point out that this is also part of what that heating looks like, where you're recognizing some of these things. Yes, there's a pull on your tender heart and you're also owning some of these things, and and you're also paying attention to what your values are and how you can negotiate this instead of like, okay, fine, let me just keep going and keep going and keep going and keep sending him money and all that. You're you're exploring, and and that's what healing looks like.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

Yeah, I'm testing it out. Because it's not just so if I put it back on the responsibility back on him, right? He made choices, he lived his best life. Uh, he was really generous with his people.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

Um, in a way that it didn't necessarily come to me and my sister. Um, but like if I put his responsibility back on him, I can still move in that tender heart. Yeah. But I can also hold the limit of like I have to pour into these babies.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 41:14

You know, the future of our family and our lineage. Like that is my priority. Yeah. And I believe that that's the way it should be. Each generation should pour into the next. And so that allows for me to hold both of the and or.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah. Yeah. And for those of us who are from collectivist cultures who are struggling with like, how do I separate this? How do I, like, what do healthy financial boundaries look like? That's what it looks like. Right. That's what it sounds like. Where maybe it's not going to be every month, right? Or it's not going to be that large amount that is going to cause my children to not have the things that they want. Right. I'm going to make sure that I am taking a look at the kids' needs first. And then if there's any surplus, you know, then yes, there will be a distribution to the community or or or to the family or whatever that looks like. And it's we're not gonna get it perfect, right? Maybe one month we're going to see, oh, I actually gave more than I said I was going to give. Okay. All right. And then maybe one month it's going to be all right.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Well, I ain't got it. Yeah, no se puede.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

I I ain't got it. I ain't got it, right? And I think that's something that many immigrant children need permission to hear is that you can love your family deeply with all your heart without having to what's the word I'm looking for? Sacrifice your emotional healing, right? And the work that you're you're doing. You don't have to sacrifice who you are, what your needs are, what your children need of you. Right. Those things can can all exist in the same pot. It doesn't have to be an either-or, the way that society has had us believe that it has to be you and your children, or it's your family.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

And that's what this whole premise of the podcast has been, right? Between two worlds, right? Because we do live that reality that not everybody is going to understand.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

No, no, and so this word has come through me throughout my life, but the word is nepantlera. And it's termed from Gloria Anasaldua, a Chicana philosopher. And it talks about like Nepantla is the in-between the two worlds. The Nepantlera is the person who's that bridge. You know, and so many of us are that Nepantlera, you know, making it up, like one foot here, one foot there, like negotiating all the things, setting the boundaries, practicing. The negotiating. But I'm bringing my people along with me. And I and I know you are too.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

And it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 43:49

It's gonna look spicy and different, and we're all making it up on this path.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Yeah. Let's do something fun before before we end, right? Just like a quick lightning round kind of thing. Okay. Immigrant version. Okay. I like this part because it's a little bit of a surprise. Like, hey, what did we talk about? I wasn't sure about this, but what do you think is the most important parent financial phrase of all time when you think about immigrant parents? What is something that they say that like just kind of sticks out to you? I'm sure there's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

Yeah. I'm gonna go with I Comida and La Casa. So there's food at home. And I, you know, I internalize my mom's voice in all the ways, and now I'm teaching my kids about that, you know, like and I'm balancing it out first gen style of like sometimes I comela in la casa, but most of the time, I comida and la casa.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

There's been a few times that I've gotten to use that with my mom, and I love it. Just a look on her face, you know, she's like, Oh, so what are we gonna eat? Oh, well, there's your love at home, or there's rice at home, and she looked at me like, did you just like I got my leg back?

SPEAKER_04 44:57

The power has shifted.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Listen, power has shifted. All right, so cash up, Zell, or money transfers. Which one do you usually go with? Oh my gosh, Venmo. Okay. All right, all right, all right. I like that. I don't do I use I mean I use Venmo every now and then. What do you think is a purchase that immigrant children feel guilty making?

SPEAKER_04 45:18

Oh my god, everything. Oh I mean, airplane tickets bring up a lot for me.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 45:27

Because it was so stressful growing up, having to buy the tickets back home. Yeah, yeah. Um, so much pressure that I still feel that. Yeah. Um even when it's a fun trip.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Oh, I know. I can understand that. Now, what is one financial belief that you wish that immigrant children would unlearn?

SPEAKER_04 45:44

Ooh. Hmm. I can't think of a phrase, but a belief is that we were always poor.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Ooh.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

You know, I just heard you speak to your grandmother being an entrepreneur. My grandmother was an entrepreneur too.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:59

And I'm realizing the more healing I do, like the more entrepreneurs I keep finding in my lady. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

That and also that our communities aren't resourced. Because you just shared how like there was money for this. Yeah. Even if there wasn't money over there.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:15

And I think our communities are resourced. They they can afford therapy, they can afford to pay us our rates. Yeah. Uh, they can prioritize themselves and their well-being. And yeah, both of those things.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Okay. Now, last one. What do you think immigrant parents got right when it came to money?

SPEAKER_04 46:35

Immigrant parents, I actually have the the parts for a workshop on our inheritance. But first of all, like we I want to name that we received the blessings and the burdens from our parents.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 46:47

And immigrant mentality is like hardcore. Like when you bring up budgeting, that feels like a white people thing. Um but our people like lived off of 50% or less.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

They knew to save.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Like at least the people that not my dad. Not my dad. But immigrant mentality around money is like you don't spend more than you have. Yeah. You save for a rainy day. Yes. Just in case. Yeah. There's food at home. Yes. And so like they didn't live lifestyle creep the way it's so tempting for us to do now. Yeah. Right. And so I think that's what they get right.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Like, yeah. Yeah. And it's beautiful when you put it that way too, because yeah, sometimes there is food at home. Like we've already spent all this money out here doing what, right? And even when I use like the term budget, I'm realizing that I use it so loosely because I don't, I don't believe in that and I don't like stick to one because it's just not realistic.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

No.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Right. Especially with people who have the kinds of lifestyles that we we have, right? But there was one thing my dad, I remember when I was moving to America, one of the things that he told me was, you know, don't get credit cards. Don't get credit cards. Don't don't do that. And he was right, right? Because in college, you know how predatory some of these credit card companies are. Discover. My very first one. They had like this like special college card that they gave everybody. And oh, when I tell you I went, ham. Oh. And so looking back, I'm like, oh no, my dad was right. He was right. This was the one thing that he was right about. I mean, yes, as I've gotten older, I've learned how to like leverage credit cards and you know, like all the different things and paying off balances, like as soon as the month is up, before any interest hits. But there were things that our parents got right and and and different legacies. And I think about all the different ways in which I still save, right? And I invest. And you know, I talked to my mom about investing. We introduced her to Robin Hood years ago and and and the stock market and educating her about crypto. Shout out to my brothers for doing that because I was like, I don't understand this crypto thing. I would get it. But you know, now we're actually having those conversations about money. And and it's really, it's really beautiful to just see, right? So today's conversation has really highlighted something that's really, really important. And it's that many immigrant families have survived through collective sacrifice, right? And at the same time, survival patterns are not always going to translate into emotional health, right? And for immigrant children, sometimes, you know, healing means, you know, learning that rest is not laziness, that boundaries are not betrayal, and you get to define what boundaries look like, and that your worth is not measured by how financially useful you are to everybody else. Because that's something that I've had to sit with for a while too. And you're allowed to build a life that includes what you mentioned, you know, generosity, that how that's a value and peace. So, Diana, thank you so much for for joining us today. And tell everyone where they can find you and learn because you have a lot of great work that you're doing. So people need to know where to find you and how where to find your work.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

Yeah. So Diana Mena, my business is Esperanza Counseling and Consulting. You can find me on Instagram, on the gram, at Esperanza PLLC. Yes. Um ITAC healing, healing ancestors, healing money. Uh, and I also do community ofrendas, community circulos. One of them was money medicina for clinicians.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

I also have a beautiful one that I think it's perfect to add on to what you just shared is your quetzali life.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

And so quitsali is a nawa word that is valuable, rich, wealthy. And part of the first gen experience is like realizing that we have a chance to dream and let's take the time to dream it out and envision and imagine what a wealthy life could look like for us and for the people behind us and also the people forward.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. And I really encourage you all to check out um Diana's website, social media, reach out. And if today's episode made you feel seen, it had you feeling like, ooh, this was this was heavy. This was I needed this. I need you to make a commitment to send it to your sibling, send it to your cousin who became the family accountant, you know, at age 14, or to your fellow immigrant children who are pretending like we're fine, we're fine. And at the same time, we're paying everybody else's bills. You know what I'm saying? And it's not easy out here, especially with this economy, looking the way that it's looking. So if you've enjoyed this episode, make sure that you leave a review, subscribe, share the podcast, talk to somebody about it. If you're interested in maybe like coming on here and talking about some of the things that you want to talk about, we're bringing up all of the things that the conversations that are happening behind closed doors around the kitchen table, you know, in the backyard, over the suya grilling and everything. We're talking about it here. So until next time, please take care of yourselves and you know, maybe check your parents' latest wire transfers, you know, and all that. Just do it a little gently, okay? Just a little soft. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. So, guess what? We are opening up some slides for a sponsorship. If you've been watching or listening to this podcast and you've been enjoying it as much as we have been enjoying recording it, I would love to invite you to consider sponsoring us. You can reach out to me. We have a wide range of our audience, and we would love our audience to hear.