Career Transition and Midlife Reinvention With Dave Albrechta

Career transition and midlife reinvention
Career transition and midlife reinvention rarely arrive as one dramatic exit, and my guest this week, Dave Albrechta, is proof of that. Dave is a recovering employment litigator who spent a decade representing employees in federal court before walking away from the adversarial legal system to ask a beautiful, slightly mad question. What if lawyers could become healers of human conflict instead of fighters of it?

Values alignment
We talk about the difference between chasing an identity and living a purpose, and Dave's own simple, powerful line for anyone sitting in a conflict right now: "Does this align with your values?" Does this align with who you actually are? He realised his working life was quietly at war with what he believed in, and that gap is where this whole conversation genuinely lives.

The messy middle moment
About ten years into practice, as a brand new parent to twin babies in the middle of the pandemic, everything Dave had built started to feel a little grey rather than sharp and certain. There was no single dramatic day, just a slow, quiet shift, and that is exactly the kind of messy middle moment this whole show exists to talk about honestly, without rushing to a tidy answer.
Nervous system regulation for midlife burnout
Dave is honest in this conversation about how he managed the strain at the time: acupuncture, breathwork, Qigong, sound healing, and, by his own admission, probably more drinking than he should have, all while presenting to clients, lawyers, and judges as completely even-keeled. It is an honest picture of nervous system regulation for midlife burnout when it is managed rather than properly heard.

Nine principles of authentic living
That night he looked up the phrase "lawyers as healers" and found a quote from a former Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, Warren Burger, saying exactly that, decades earlier. Dave now hosts his own podcast, Lawyers as Healers, and works as a mediator and coach, living proof of Understanding, one of my nine principles of authentic living, in action every day.

Dave Albrechta spent a decade as an employment litigator in the American federal courts, representing employees inside one of the most adversarial systems there is. Wanting to be a lawyer since he was four or five years old, with a lawyer father and a judge grandfather, the identity was practically inherited before he had a say in it.

About ten years into practice, as a new parent to twin babies during the pandemic, the strain surfaced in ways he could no longer manage with acupuncture, breathwork and Qigong alone. A confusing moment in his office one Monday, and a quote he found that same night from former US Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger, that the obligation of the legal profession is to serve as healers of human conflict, sent him toward mediation and coaching. He now hosts his own podcast, Lawyers as Healers, and works with people navigating conflict without losing themselves in the process.

Connect With Dave
dave@tallgrasscollective.org
www.davealbrechta.com

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Transcript

Introduction

Jody Brooks 0:00

For ten years he was a fighter, an employment lawyer in the American court, winning cases for a living and from the outside he looked completely on top of it. Calm, even sorted, but underneath he was drinking more than he should have been, just to get through the day. He was supposedly winning. His wake-up call didn't come in a crisis, it came in the quiet. The moment he got good enough, comfortable enough to finally

Meet Dave Albrechter

Jody Brooks 0:25

hear the question he'd been avoiding. Does any of this actually line up with who I am? My guest today is Dave Albrecta, a litigator who became a healer, and his story asks something I want you to sit with. What if your truth is waiting, not in the storm, but in the stillness? Welcome, messy midlifers. Answering the call to connect today is Dave Albrecta, a recovering employment litigator who spent a decade representing employees in federal court before walking away from the adversarial legal system to explore a radical question. What if lawyers could become healers of human conflict? After years inside the adversarial legal system, Dave began noticing a growing tension between how lawyers are trained to handle conflict and how human beings actually heal and resolve it. That realisation led him to leave traditional litigation and begin exploring mediation, integrative law and coaching. Today he's a coach and mediator who helps others navigate conflict change and the messy middle with greater awareness and intention. Dave, welcome to the show and thank you for connecting.

Dave Albrechta 1:42

Oh, of course. Thank you, Jody. It's my pleasure to be here. I'm excited for the conversation.

Jody Brooks 1:47

I'm really really excited. Um the listeners will all know that I always have a pre-chat with

Dave's Messy Middle Moment

Jody Brooks 1:53

people, and we had a great pre-chat, and it was like one of those that kind of we were like, right, we have to go now, we have to go because we got into some really good some really good talks on it. But as always, we always start in that messy middle moment and that messy midlife middle moment with all of the guests. What was that moment for you, Dave?

Dave Albrechta 2:15

Yeah, there was it was kind of a slow build up to that moment, but it was a couple of years ago, three years ago, I've it was July 2023. Um, I could look up the exact date where I, like I said, all these factors kind of converged at the same time. Uh I'd I'd become a new parent, so I had two young boys at home uh and was managing parenting. COVID had happened a few years earlier, which had changed the world and all of everything we were all doing. And I I'd been practicing for just about 10 years at that point and had seen a lot of cases and a lot of I'd gotten comfortable in the system and figured it out. And I was when I think when we get comfortable in a job or or what relationship, whatever it is, you start seeing things a little differently, right? Things start becoming a little more clear because you're not just focused on the day-to-day skills or whatever, a lot of that stuff goes away. So there's space to kind of see other stuff, say it that way. And I was just seeing some patterns in the American legal system. I was in the civil law system that I that were became becoming very uncomfortable for me about how we manage conflict and how lawyers interact, how we deal with clients, how my clients were leaving. That was a big part of it. Was I felt people were leaving almost um dissatisfied with the outcomes that the system can provide, and and often seeing that they were leaving almost in a worse place than when they came in uh initially, and that was getting uncomfortable. And then um briefly, I I'd ended up doing a therapeutic Sil Simon journey, which is something I had not done before. And the week after I did that, I had a moment in the office where I just I I realized I couldn't keep doing this work in

From Comfort to Clarity

Dave Albrechta 4:09

this way, and that something had to change. And so I began looking for different ways to show up as a lawyer. I found this whole world I was unaware of, and for the last three years I've been unwinding my traditional practice and building new stuff.

Jody Brooks 4:28

It's quite a huge realization and shift there, and and and I love that you talk there about how that kind of comfort provided you with some clarity in a weird way. Because I think there's that thing that you know, particularly when you start out in any career or profession, your focus is on feeling competent, and then quite often we feel competent, but then all the other bits that we never questioned really start to show up. I'm interested to know

The Hidden Anxiety of Being a Lawyer

Jody Brooks 4:59

how those other bits started to almost show up emotionally, particularly as a lawyer. People look to you and you have to inspire confidence, so in that there's an element of projecting on the outside everything's okay, but was that really how it felt on the inside?

Dave Albrechta 5:19

No, it was not. And short answer, right? And I when so my wife and I opened a practice together. We took a kind of non-goal path through this. A lot of people go to law school and then you work your way up through firms as associates and law clerks, all this stuff. Um, we went to school at night together. We were already married before law school, so we we did took every class together, took the bar together, we did the whole thing. We worked during the day at at my family's law firm. So we'd gotten this really nice immersive law school experience that a lot of people don't get, and we're very fortunate to have had that opportunity. And so we were able to just open a firm right when we got out. We moved to our dream town and just took a gamble and and opened a practice together. And that was stressful on a whole bunch of levels, and so I was experiencing this anxiety that in a different way than I had right off the bat. And so I was really searching for tools to manage my stress and anxiety right off the bat. And I turned to a lot of healthy things like uh acupuncture and kind of building a really robust mindfulness practice and breath work, and we were going to our local meditation center, and and so I'd I we were doing a lot of healthy things that kind of opened up my healing journey, and so that was happening as the law firm was growing, and I was experiencing these new things, and I did qigong and I did sound healing, and I just did sweat lodges, I mean you name it, I we were doing all the things, and we're lucky we live in a place where all of that exists and is easy to access. And and at the same time, I was also doing unhealthy things, just to be honest, you know, to manage the stress too, and I was drinking probably more than I should have been, and uh and all that. So all that's happening as, like you say, I'm trying to present to my clients and lawyers and judges as even keeled, and you know, that I have my shit together. And but those two pathways are happening at the same time. And uh as I was progressing through that, again, I'm experiencing this kind of deep healing, inner healing. Parenting is a form of that too, I've found, and reparenting myself and going through all that. Um, that the emotions should from stress and anxiety to I think I was just getting clarity around myself and who I am, and that raised this whole new discomfort of I'm not showing up in the world in a way that's aligned with who I really am. And I'd wanted to be a lawyer since I was, since I can remember four or five years old. I used to pretend to be a lawyer when I was that young. My dad was a lawyer, my grandpa was a judge. It was just like what I was gonna do. And so, to your earlier point, it was extraordinarily difficult to have this realization that I no longer could or wanted to be this conventional version of a lawyer that I had always had in my head, and it took a great deal of work, inner work, to untangle my concepts of what a lawyer is from how I wanted to show up.

Jody Brooks 8:42

Um I love that, and I think it's you know, doing the show and talking to lots of people and hearing their stories, it's always interesting that there is the one thing that's consistent is this disconnect and this disconnect that exists internally, hence the reason the show's called It's Calling to Connect. Well, yeah, what I love about that as well, and it's something I grow with every episode of these shows, like it's amazing, like listening to it. Something that I've really started to notice recently is quite often as well, is is that a bit there, and you kind of almost joked about it, you were like like throwing all this other stuff in, okay, like externally still though, externally the yoga, the the acupuncture, the sweat lodges, the the whole kind of lot. In terms of seeking, I suppose, relief from that anxiety and that stress, would it be fair to say but that wasn't really the problem, but it did get you to the problem in the end?

Dave Albrechta 9:50

Yeah, I think that is fair to say. I mean, I there's there's this really interesting theme here, and probably a lot of your guests have experienced this, that with having gone through this journey of becoming a lawyer, I couldn't have gotten to where I am today. And I'm I'm so grateful for it. I had moments early on where I was like, God, why did I waste my time going to law school and spending all this money and building this career that I'm just gonna walk away from, but I I I wouldn't be who I am without that, and I it was incredibly necessary. So I think that's a similar thing to what you're pointing at, which is that yeah, I was searching for something to manage stress and anxiety, which I realized wasn't really because the source of the stress and the anxiety was much deeper than this kind of surface level. Oh, if I just breathe for five minutes and take 10 deep breaths, like the anxiety's gonna go away. It calmed it would calm my nervous system down for a little bit, then and then you go into whatever it is, the hearing or the the call or the deposition or whatever, and you're right back in that space. And um, so they were they were helpful tools, but they really but they did not get to really the heart of what was going on for me. And what was going on was a disconnect between how I was showing up in the world and my job and who I really was. And I think actually the anxiety was probably a symptom of that, and that I didn't really know what the cause was when I first started doing these things, and I eventually got there.

Jody Brooks 11:34

Thinking exactly that as you said it is that I think sometimes we often find relief for symptoms, but we don't get to the core of the problem. And I quite often, you know, like what made me smile when you were saying, and I did this and I did this and I did this, is I've heard it from people before. Well, I'm journaling and I'm meditating and I'm doing all of these things, but it's just not getting any I feel better, but it's not getting any better. And I'm always like, maybe that's just a symptom of a problem that you're you're not facing kind of thing. So I think when you then hit on that realization, okay, well, you know, I've again almost like you were saying in your career, becoming competent gave you enough clarity to look at something else. You added in all of these really well-known practices that are proven to relieve stress and anxiety. And I think that's a clue as well, is that we always say that it relieves stress, it relieves anxiety, it doesn't remove stress. As human beings, we have to have stress. Yes. And that's right. When people say to me, I don't want to be anxious, that's an impossible goal. Because as human beings, we are going to be anxious at some point, but it's about identifying the cause and treating that so it doesn't become uncontrollable.

Dave Albrechta 12:56

That's right. And there's also this I've been talking about this a lot lately. It's a one of the many issues we have is the uh the insufficiency of the English language, right? And anxiety doesn't really capture what I was experiencing. Um and I've I've come to learn that I had there there are multiple, many forms of anxiety or stress, and they for me they feel different in my body and I experience them differently. And there's I almost want to call it like there's a healthy version of stress and anxiety. There's this the normal just kind of what happens when I see my son go down a steep hill on his bike with you know, and I have a stress response as a parent. That stress response is entirely different than what I was experiencing day to day as a lawyer. And uh it's lighter, it doesn't affect me as much. It's more in my uh it's up here more. The anxiety I was experiencing as a lawyer was in my belly, it was deep, it was um, it was impacting me physically. I had all these physical symptoms that were connected to it. And so we talk so flippantly about anxiety, and it's easy to just kind of I I have anxiety, I want it to go away. Well, there's all these different versions of it, and and what I really found at the end of this was that when I had that realization,

The Physical Toll of Disconnection

Dave Albrechta 14:23

it was a really it was listening to my body. My my body was rejecting being a lawyer in this way, and it had been rejecting it since day one, and since I stopped doing that, I haven't felt anything like that. I still have stress and anxiety like everybody, but it's not that stress and anxiety that I was experiencing as a lawyer.

Jody Brooks 14:42

I love that point that you make there as well. I think certainly for me, when I went through burnout, I always say to people, it it was in my belly, it was and whether you want to align it to your solar plexus or any of those things. I was like, it was in my stomach, and it showed up physically in my stomach and across the whole of the rest of my body. So it's interesting that you say that, and that there is a real physical feeling with it as well, this huge physical feeling. You touched on it a couple of you touched on it a couple of times there, and I kind of want to unpack this a little bit because I love there that you say like that watching my son on a his bike go recklessly down a thing, and I don't have children, but even I was like, Yeah, I can imagine I want you to do it and have that, but at the same time, I am now stood here with my heart in my throat thinking, oh my god, this could be the emergency room, this could be like all of those things. But it's obviously huge in there, and you led into it. How much of this crisis was also really about identity? Because you alluded to it there as well, is that this shifting identity. One was not forced on you, but

Identity, Parenthood, and the Turning Point

Jody Brooks 15:58

you became a parent, that's a huge shift in identity, and you alluded to how much of that lawyer journey was almost an identity that was generational, it was a generational identity that was handed down to you, and how much of that identity shift caused the real middle messiness as well.

Dave Albrechta 16:19

100% of it was identity, it was all identity. I, for an example, I so in in 2023, July 2023, this Monday morning after this journey, I had this experience um where I knew I couldn't keep doing this anymore. It happened one literally one day. And that night I went home and I told my wife, I can't do this, I gotta quit. And she was like, maybe we can tap the brakes a bit and think this through. And and so then, and I had a bunch of active cases, so it took a year and a half to wind down the work that I had already kind of in the pipeline. And the reason I bring that up to your question is because I had to had this long period of time where I had to keep doing the work I didn't want to be doing. I think a lot of people have this experience. There's this kind of overlap transition period. And so I'm doing the work I know that I no longer want to do. I'm beginning to think about building the new thing. It's all happening at the same time. Incredibly messy. I've got all these irons in the fire, I've got ideas, but I still have to wrap what wrap up the old stuff. And in that process, I kept saying to myself, when I stop litigating, when I stop litigating, when I stop litigating. And there was a moment where I realized that uh I wasn't talking about it in the present tense. I couldn't say the words, I don't litigate anymore. I literally I couldn't say them. And I had a few therapy appointments, and my therapist actually helped me by doing some like role-playing where she would have me say it out loud. And the first few times I just could not say it. And that was because my identity as a litigating attorney, the two were so entwined and so enmeshed that I could not imagine myself to me, uh I was gonna be less than if I didn't litigate. Even if I continued being a lawyer, even if I kept that identity, if I didn't go to court, if I didn't represent clients, if I didn't do it in this conventional way, there was this, yeah, I know how to ex describe it other than just saying I felt that I would be less than. I would be, I don't know, it was painful, it was difficult, and it took a significant amount of work just to be able to say the words, and then to actually do it in practice was a whole nother thing. And so there were every step you like make this decision, like, oh God, I've got all this clarity, I don't want to do this work anymore, and now I can see where I want to go, but then you've got to do the work to get there, and that was incredibly difficult, and every step of the way it was about identity, it was about ego, it was about who am I as a person versus what am I doing for my job? And those are really it was tough. It still is. I mean, I'm not through it yet. I'm still in it.

Jody Brooks 19:18

I love your honesty there. I think that you know sometimes people maybe are scared to start making the decision because it is a period of transition, and and also what I think is important in your story there, sometimes this whole crisis element of midlife I think comes from the fact that the bits that we hear about or the bits that we see are when people completely implode it, yeah, and they go m do something really rash and a huge decision, and that is such a minority of people, but like what you did there is make a decision to pivot and slowly go, you know what? It almost stood at a fork in the road, and I know that down that road is not a destination I want to go, so it's this one, and I feel like I once described when I did I did 18 months of continuing to work in the corporate world, having made a decision that I needed to get out, yeah. And I knew when I could no longer do it, and I described it as that there was a fork in the road, and I decided to go down this one, but I had to keep running back and checking on that one for a little while, but eventually they were so far apart that I couldn't run between the two anymore. So and I feel like that's what you're describing there, is sometimes you just have to be brave enough to set a new destination and then go on that journey and understand that it is a period of transition.

Dave Albrechta 20:50

I think that's so spot on. The you know what's interesting about what you said is that you know, you said like outwardly we it's we see a very small percentage of the people make this big, you know, big rash decision at once. What was crazy is that like every step of this process for me, I felt like I was doing that. Like I felt like I was being reckless, I felt like I was making this big leap. And my brain would tell me that I was that I was doing this, that I was throwing it all away, that I was in all the chat, all the mind chatter around trying to keep me safe where I was doing what I was doing. And so there's something interesting there about what we how we think we're gonna be perceived, which oftentimes holds us back from doing the thing we want to be doing, um, and how people are actually perceiving us, which a lot if you tell me that well, it looks like you did this very reasonably and slowly, and like it it didn't feel like that at all. It really didn't in the moment. And so there's there's something really interesting there. The and then the other thing when you were talking about the paths and the fork in the road, and I had the same thing. There was a moment where after a couple of years of trying to to still lawyer but do it in this new way, they just got so distant that I I just couldn't keep doing it anymore. And it became very clear. And the I don't remember who the who said this quote. And it might be more of like a just general thing, but it's the you know if you continue down the path you're on, you're liable to get where you're going. You're liable to end up where you're going. It's like that, you know, you there just there's this point where I'm like it the the outcome became so obvious and I'm just like I just can't anymore and I have to go this way. And there there's some relief in that of just comfort and saying like now it's become really obvious and I'm a lot more comfortable can be more courageous and just say I'm doing this now because it's just become so clear.

Jody Brooks 22:45

I think in that quote and as you're talking now I'm just thinking that often we confuse that identity with a destination or a purpose in that there's a process to becoming that lawyer and you've alluded to that is like for 10 years it was actually about obtaining that identity to say I am a lawyer whereas that's not a final destination or purpose. I talk about this a lot with clients and I say look there's a very big difference between a life purpose and a goal and I think that what a lot of us do is get that mixed up. So we chase identities because we believe that in that identity lies our purpose but essentially that identity is a tick box and when you tick off that identity you're then stood there going okay so now I am a lawyer but this doesn't actually feel like I thought it was going to feel so I think your thing there about the road I say to cli one of my I say to clients is if you don't know where you're going any road will take you there. Yeah right it's just it's just literally you know I understand it's set that destination. That's all really powerful and there is one bit that I want to just unpack a little bit more because it feeds into I know what we'll certainly talk about in the second half. Ultimately what was it really you know if you think about why you wanted to be a lawyer and what it became when you got there, what was it

What's Broken in the Justice System

Jody Brooks 24:21

about those things that you suddenly said about clients and all of those things what was it that you noticed that maybe didn't match the identity that you'd believed and then there was this huge part of it which almost turned out to be a lie and you were like this is not what it was meant to be.

Dave Albrechta 24:39

Yes. Yeah there were a few things and I'll talk about them just generally like I talked about earlier there were these patterns that I was noticing. One of the patterns relates to client expectations and I should start by saying I started I I wanted to do this work to help people. That's what always attracted me to being a lawyer and giving people a voice and helping them feel empowered and standing up to the powers that be and all that stuff. That's really what I wanted to be doing. And I chose a field where I was really doing that. I mean I was a uh employee side employment lawyer tiny little firm was regularly going up against these massive companies with you know endless resources and lawyers coming out of everywhere. And and that and the work felt good in that way. Like I I did feel like I was doing some of that. Ultimately what I found was the system doesn't really provide what people are looking for, what they need when they're in one of these situations and had very little to do with my involvement or anything I could do as a lawyer. And so for example people would come in and the things they would tell you, I would always ask in the initial meeting, you know, what what's the outcome you want? You know, what do you want to get out of this? And most people would say something to the effect of I want to make sure this never happens again to someone else. I want to make sure the company knows what they did and sees that it was wrong and that it hurt me. I want uh some acknowledgement basically is what they're saying in that piece. And they would group all of these things under I want justice this kind of big broad term of what they want. And some people would say this isn't about money at all. Other people would say I'd and some money would be nice too there'd be some version of that right and the more I did the work and the longer I was in that process you know you ultimately just basically tell people look I can only do one thing for you in this civil law system. I can get you money and that's not guaranteed but that's the only outcome that's available on the table. All these other things we can we can think about maybe in some off chance we get something like that but the chances are incredibly limited and this more importantly the system cannot provide that. And so what resulted is that clients would get to the end of the process and they would get the check hopefully and that's it. And the company would sign a agreement saying they didn't do anything wrong and they get their money and they're not seen they're not heard they're not acknowledged and there's an emptiness to that check. That money goes away pretty fast even if it's a good amount and a few weeks months go by and you realize that isn't really what I was looking for. And so that was bothering me. Um and then very quickly I was teaching my kids to deal with conflict at home talking to them about apologizing and acknowledging each other and getting the usual responses from kids. I didn't do anything wrong explaining to them why apologies are important, that they're not admissions, that this helps us you know connect and see each other and then I'm going to work and doing the complete opposite for adults that that was a huge rift that was troubling for me. And then lastly there was just the an absurdity to the system that I couldn't deal with anymore. I had one case that was a dispute over about $2,000 and we took it pro bono and told the client I will you know was the law was really clear. We'll send a letter we'll get you half of it or a little less and you know be done this employer fought this thing like it was the like World War III. We it it went on for five years. We went through multiple appeals they spent well over six figures on their lawyer they ended up having to pay us and all of our co-counsel all of our attorney's fees the client ended up getting eight grand and I sat back after that case and was just like what are we doing here? It it was just an absurd waste of resources, time, energy and I couldn't I couldn't my brain couldn't process it. I couldn't figure out why we're doing this and why two parties couldn't get together and work out a dispute like that in in a couple weeks. Why would that take five years and six figures? And I have a whole bunch of those types of stories. But that those were the three things that were really getting to me about the the system.

Jody Brooks 29:19

I remember we discussed it before and I think it it is interesting that you know essentially to kind of give it a different slightly different metaphor but you know people almost see that this process of justice will heal a wound. You don't turn up unless you feel injured and you know it's interesting there as well that one of the reasons you do get the money is because usually the company or the organisation will say we'll pay you but we're not saying we did anything wrong. So ultimately even in that you come away I would think more hurt because you don't even you don't even get your injury acknowledged it's almost like actually it never happened and I would have thought that's more damaging to people and then to be like you say to be the person that's standing in amongst all of this watching this happen that must have been incredibly emotionally painful when as a human being you see other humans hurting. That is insane.

Dave Albrechta 30:26

Yeah it was painful and um and I've you know I've realized over time that I'm a pretty sensitive person and and emotionally in touch with people and and it was we're told as lawyers you're supposed to turn that off but a good lawyer is a lawyer that can leave their emotions at the door whatever the hell that means as if we can be robots and not bring our humanity into our work. And I couldn't do that. I wasn't good at that and so you're right and it and it was painful. And I the metaphor I've been using with people is imagine that you go see a doctor and you've got this huge open wound on your arm or something. It's big gash and what a lawyer does in this scenario to put it in physical terms is we say oh yeah that looks really bad. But what I'd like you to do is leave it open. We're not gonna treat it we're not gonna just leave it there. We're gonna let it fester we'll invite the person who cut you to come in and they're gonna tell you that it's really not that bad and that's not there at all. You're actually making it up we're gonna let them pour salt and vinegar in it and poke and prod at it and kind of open it up a little bit more. By the end of this you're probably gonna have to amputate your arm. But good news is we'll get you a check. We'll get you some money. Right. That's really what it feels like. And and just because the injuries are emotional we somehow pretend like they're not as important or not as bad. And lawyers completely ignore and are not trained to handle the actual injury that these people are coming to us with um and we're not trained to get them support that they need and help them manage it in a way. And so the point of that metaphor that analogy is that it people leave worse off they leave more traumatized and they also leave having to having these really deep neural pathways formed because for years they have to go back and relive this thing over and over again. They have to keep going back to the trauma, back to the trauma, back to the trauma, all while the other side is telling them that they're lying and that they're making it up and that they're terrible and they're the worst employee on the face of the earth and um and there's no support for the person going through this. The lawyers aren't we don't know how to handle that. We just tell them kind of suck it up and just stick with your story and we we're not trained for that. And unless they've got a good therapist or somebody on the side helping them people get really messed up in that in that process and when you leave it's really hard to break those pathways and so a lot of what we see is people repeat repeat that pattern because it's they're just still living it or they're unable to move forward because they they're just stuck in the past. So it's a really damaging process.

Jody Brooks 33:19

Because you describe it there and I can associate with it I've had friends that have been in court battles that they and it is pretty horrific and yeah there's one thing that you said there that really stood out at me and I'll probably be you know receive an inbox full of email from lawyers when I say this but uh when you said I went into being a lawyer because I wanted to empower people and I wanted to do all of these things and I was like oh I thought lawyers went into it for money. I think that was your mistake I'm not sure like so I apologize to all lawyers and other lawyers out there and people of the legal profession who did go into it for the same reason but it just really resonated because as somebody outside the profession so it was kind of heartwarming to hear you say actually yeah that's why I wanted to do it and really that is why you should go and do that. And secondly what really screamed out at me in that was when you said leave your humanity at the courtroom door and all of those things and yet justice where is what is the point of justice if you remove humanity from it the whole reason that we have justice it is a part of humanity and a civilized society so if the people practicing it are actively removing their humanity in order to practice it that's quite worrying really yeah it's really worrying and and it's exactly what's happening and I also want to be clear so that your inbox doesn't fill up too much I'm still a believer in our legal system.

Dave Albrechta 35:03

I think it does great things. It I actually just did I have a podcast called Lawyers as healers where we're kind of unpacking this exact question. And the I think the legal system can work wonders. It it has you know you look at the long list of things that it's done really well um and in civil rights and all this stuff it's it's a good thing. It is how we use it and how the people that are trained to access it um it's how we interact with I mean we provide the you know the nexus between everyday people, non-lawyers and the legal system. And we have to be better I think at bringing that humanity into the equation um so that people aren't so jolted by going through these processes. And and that's really what we're exploring. And I really I want to I I always want to be clear about that that I'm not saying the system needs to be abolished and it's completely broken and um some people think that's what I'm implying but it's not. It's about merging these things together and just doing it in a more human way which I think is the solution to the threats the AI are are are posing right now to the legal industry. You know, look AI is going to already can draft a brief better than lawyers can it can craft arguments it can outline it can do the research it cannot bring humanity into this process and it cannot

AI and the Future of Law

Dave Albrechta 36:30

help someone through and process this stuff with empathy and understanding and compassion in the way that human beings can. So I'm I'm actually hopeful in that way about AI forcing lawyers into these more human ways of being instead of just being law robots, which is how we're trained in law school.

Jody Brooks 36:49

I love that and we are rapidly I can see this always happens I said it again is we merge and we get to a point where it's clear we're moving into future practice and we've left the messy middle behind. So I want to wrap up the messy middle but I have to say it there is I say all the time about AI if you're scared of AI you're not really scared of AI you're scared of your own lack of connection to your own humanity and the only what we need to do as human beings is we up to we need to upskill being human. That's it because AI can't do that. That's it so you need to learn to be a better human because actually that's what AI is pushing you to do. It's actually asking you to be a better human. It can't replace us unless you choose to only behave like AI and you choose to dehumanize yourself and so that's when anyone says oh I'm scared of AI or it's going to take my job I just say well then upskill. Upskill as a human get better at being a human because it can't do that. So I think it really good that you said that there.

Becoming a Healer of Conflict

Jody Brooks 39:25

It's about quick space to slow down, reconnect with what matters most to you so you can make decisions you actually feel good about you can learn more about my work at DaveAbrecta.com thanks for listening today and be well messy midlifers so before the break we went on a journey back through Dave's messy middle and the realisations that he made there and the shift in discovering that there was a disconnect with that internal alignment and as we finished I drew a conclusion that there was a similarity as we'd got to the point between maybe the legal profession and it having its own messy midlife in that it got lost in its identity somewhere rather than its purpose. I know that you've now forged having answered that call to connect internally you've now forged a new pathway and now still as a lawyer but in a different guise in a different direction have decided to maybe align that shift in the legal profession but just unpack for the listeners now that how your midlife has transformed and now put you on this pathway and the work that you do now.

Dave Albrechta 40:52

Yeah so just to to return to the source I I um had this had this moment in in 23 where I had I didn't explain it a whole lot in the beginning but it's important to this conversation. What had happened was that I had done I had a difficult phone call that day and I I had a little routine that I would do before hearings or phone calls or whatever and and I take a couple minutes and close my eyes and do a meditation and kind of ground and shield and protect and all the all that stuff. So I had gone to do that on that Monday and I kind of slipped into this other space and I it was very involuntary and um I got this message of I needed to be doing healing work. I needed to be and I and I saw my law office as a healing space and uh at the time that was very confusing. I I was very troubled by that um this was not something that it it was it it didn't it was I felt like I was kind of going crazy a little bit and um but I led me to look up I just looked up lawyers as healers. I just looked up that phrase that night because I'm like is that even possible like what what is this? And and I found this quote that very night um by a chief justice of the Supreme Court named Warren Berger. He he was saying these things in the 70s and 80s and he said the obligation of our profession is to serve as healers of human conflict and to see that come from a Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court blew me away. I I I had never seen anything like that. And so that really set me on this path toward you know what does that mean? What does it mean to be a healer of human conflict? I didn't know that was my obligation. No one told me that before um but it makes a whole lot of sense and so I ended up uh starting where I like a lot of lawyers do in this transition phase which is doing mediation trainings. And so I did a uh a handful of those with some really cool organizations and and that really opened my mind up to these different approaches to conflict and healthy conflict and helping people move through their conflict instead of uh diving right into adversarial type practices. And so I've built a mediation practice around that and then uh but I was still you know the thing I loved about being a lawyer was working one-on-one with clients I just that was my favorite part it's what it's what I loved and and so I was still looking for a new way to like how do I bring in these mediation concepts into working one-on-one with people and how can we more importantly there's this big question about power and the real system works because it creates leverage it it evens the playing field you can threaten a company if you don't capitulate come to the table and talk to us we're gonna sue you and there's risk and all the stuff that comes along with that. Well what happens when they say no And the person doesn't want to litigate. There's this scenario where you have a client who doesn't want to sue anybody and the company refuses to talk to them. And so I was trying to play with that feels like a space where a lot of people are. And how can I help them navigate that and navigate that conflict in a different way instead of saying, well, too bad, the only option is to sue them. You know, I I'm trying to think about this in terms of if someone comes into me and says, I don't want to do that, I don't want to litigate, that's good information, and I would like to follow that and say, if you don't want to do this, great. And here are some other options. That's what we don't have as lawyers, those other options. So, anyways, long story short, I uh led me into coaching. And uh coaching was this wonderful blend of mediation type skills and ideas and tools that are applied in a one-on-one setting to help people navigate and move through conflict when the other party isn't in the room with them. And so it's really kind of like a one-sided mediation, or you're mediating with yourself a lot of the times. These inner conflicts about how I ought to be responding to this and how society has told us we're supposed to respond to conflict. And what if we don't? And what if we go a different way? And is that more aligned with who you are? And that's where I'm at now is experimenting with uh that type of coaching that's kind of law adjacent and and still brings in a lot of those skills. And and and sometimes I'm coaching people who are litigating, but they get this other type of support through that process that helps keep them grounded and looking forward. And and really what it's about is uh trying to prevent those neural pathways from becoming too

Mediation, Money, and the Legal Industry

Dave Albrechta 45:46

deep, you know, as they're in that system. And then also mediation when we do have people who want to come sit in a room together and and have a conversation. So those are the things I'm working on now.

Jody Brooks 45:57

Obviously, you are in America, and I was just thinking there, it's interesting how actually here in the UK, I don't know how many years ago, but in family law, they made it a requirement that you go to mediation before court. So you actually can't go to court unless you've actively gone into mediation and it can't be resolved in mediation, and it's almost like you're saying the system does need to go actually, you know what? And I think that is one way. If the other system is there, it's one way to empty the courts a bit first. Actually, the requirement before you go to court is that we've tried to resolve this. I don't know, is it the same for family court in America?

Dave Albrechta 46:44

Yeah, it depends on the jurisdiction, depends on the state and where you're at, but a lot of places are adopting that and that approach. And family law is further ahead in this area than uh any other areas because primarily because uh you're dealing with kids, that's really where all of this comes from. The humanity shows up a lot more strongly when kids are involved, which is good, a good thing. But I uh what I'm hoping to to recognize is that we can see that adults are humans too, and that that we can we we can bring this stuff into other areas. But yeah, collaborative law is something that was developed kind of around the same time that mediation was becoming popular in the 80s, 70s, and 80s. And um, collaborative law is the idea where uh two lawyers uh you have lawyers on both sides, but the lawyers agree that they will not sue each other. So they will not go to court, they're just there to help resolve the case. And if that isn't possible and it does need to go to court, the parties have to go hire other lawyers to do that, which I think is a fantastic system and could be adopted in many more areas. It's interesting, there's just this resistance to doing that. It actually in Colorado, you're not allowed to have that kind of an agreement unless you're unless it's in family law case. There are rules actually say we can't do that, which to me is crazy. And and to your other point, I am a huge proponent of uh mediation being required. It feels like that's catching on a little bit. It's such an easy, kind of low-hanging fruit way for courts to say to parties, look, the system's here if you need it, but go put your big kid pants on and sit down at a table and try to work this out first. And if you can't, that's fine. And the system's here uh exactly for that reason. But you gotta at least try. You gotta at least sit down and talk. And too many people these days just run right to lawyers who run right to court, who file them, you know, just you get right into this, swept up into the system. And, you know, the system is designed to prevent people from talking. And to me, that is the root cause problem of a lot of what's going on in society, not just in the legal system, that we've lost our uh or are losing our ability to have meaningful conversation and dialogue. And um, and courts are in this wonderful place and have this great opportunity to encourage people to do that. And and it's you know, it's one of the few areas where you can actually make people sit down and talk, where a judge can say, Hey, go talk to each other before you come running me to me to solve your problems, you know. Um, so yeah, I I hope that that catches on more and more.

Jody Brooks 49:34

It really should be the last stop on the journey, not the first stop. And yeah, you say there about the people not communicating, not speaking, and and then courts are not really the best place to have that conversation either. No, I'm just sat here thinking about how as human beings we like a right and a wrong answer, and I wonder how much of it is based in this, and we don't like the middle bit because in the middle is uncertain, and in the middle is where mediation lies. And I always talk about as well the difference between intent and impact, and I quite often feel that no one I like to believe that we live in a world which is maybe why I'd be a better mediator, where when people do things that impact someone badly, it doesn't always mean their intent was to do that. And I think there's a bit there where people have to understand that the person who was impacted has to understand that wasn't the intent, and the person who did it has to understand that the impact was real, although it wasn't their intent. But what people try to do is polarize it until someone is right, and in fact, in that both I always say as well, two things can be right at the same time.

Dave Albrechta 51:00

Yes, yeah, this stuff's more it's more nuanced than we often give ourselves credit for, right? And this is what I was experiencing with my kids early on, right? There's this innate human response to when I when they come running to me and they're both crying about whatever, someone's not sharing a toy. Um, and you know, and we sit down and unpack it, and I ask them to each tell me what happened, and uh, and then it's I eventually get to the point of apologize to each other, and there's that kind of gut reaction that we all have, which they express, which is I didn't do anything wrong. You know, why should I have to apologize? I didn't do it, I didn't do the thing. That's not what an apology is about. An apology and lawyers have this completely wrong also. A lawyer will always you'll hear it to ask any lawyer if they would recommend their client apologizing to the other side. And every lawyer will say the same thing, which is absolutely not, that's an admission of guilt. And I would never let my client admit guilt. It's fine, you shouldn't let your client admit guilt. However, that's not what an apology is. Um, an apology is acknowledging the impact you had on the other person and and seeing them and and just acknowledging it. Um and there's actually this movement flares up every once in a while in the US, I don't know about the UK, um, called legalizing the apology. And there's a number of states here who have actually written into their rules of evidence that apologies cannot be admissible. Um, so they they protect it so that an apology can never be used against you. It can never be used as as firepower against your client. And it's kind of deemed confidential and off, you know, out of bounds. And you know, that that's the kind of stuff we need to be we need to be working on and talking about. And and that's what that really is what mediation is all about.

Jody Brooks 53:01

Just there, you as you were talking and again, you go back to the amazing journey of what your kids are teaching you as you're being a parent about how we operate. And I think there is that when you know you there's a purity in how they communicate that highlights to you some of the bits that we then mask and cover up as adults that make it look like we're adult, whereas really behind that is still the five-year-old that is like, no, that's my toy, give it back. It's just we've just learned to do it in different language, and we don't cry and stamp our feet, we take people to court when we feel like that instead. We get a whole other set of tools. So yeah, it is in that there, with that human emotion and those bits of understanding that it's down in that way that we communicate there, and with your children, what shone out to me was how really our justice system is there in a sense to be aspirational to set the tone of how we all live a just life. And for me, what was beautiful in that is ironically, your the kids are demonstrating that we've got it wrong at the top. The kids are kind of going, but then what we're gonna do is is raise people to aspire to that, and I think it's that thing about what is the purpose of a justice system rather than what is the identity of a justice system, and it very much seems that justice has an identity, not a purpose. It's very much this tick-box mentality.

Dave Albrechta 54:38

Yes, yeah, and I think in that way it really has lost its way. Looking back at I I I've gone covered all these quotes when I was in that early phase phase of this that were and I I have a sheet I carry still carry around with me with all these quotes on them because it it's very inspiring and it helps me remember what I'm up to is not crazy because sometimes I feel crazy. But you know, I I think you can look back in history and find all these times where that was the point, it was the idea. And and for whatever reason, you know, access issues or however things were structured, you know, court was reserved for only the top level highest of conflict, you know, and lawyers were there as as the initial entry point and to help people try to resolve it before they get there. And and I think, especially in the US, I don't know about the UK again, but it's been so capitalized. And, you know, we haven't talked about this yet, but it was a what one of the many factors. It's just all about money. And everyone's motivated by money. The lawyers, you know, uh I had all these cases where the other side, when employment cases, the defense counsel, they get paid hourly for their work. And as a plaintiff's lawyer, I had what what's called a contingent fee agreement, which is you only get paid if you win, and we get a percentage of the outcome. And there's there's built-in incentives for me and for the other side to make that pot as big as possible and to make the case last as long as possible because everyone makes more money when that's the case. And then you've got insurance companies at the heart of all of this who are largely driving the bus because at the end of these cases, the the companies don't pay, the insurance company does. And so the adjusters are the ones making the decisions, not the manager who harassed some. It's all just so disconnected and it's all driven by money, and it's completely lost its our profession has lost its foundation in just helping people and helping resolve this stuff and being problem solved and reducing risk and helping people just get back to life. And instead, the industry is just all about making money.

Jody Brooks 56:52

I wouldn't maybe say it's as bad in the UK, but it did definitely start to surface, and we would have and I can preface this, I can preface this with saying that I'm married to an American, so I get to say these things. I live in an Anglo-American household, and so I'm not being anti-American, I'm married to an American. But there was very much a time in the UK where we would say, Oh, it's getting just like America now, everybody's suing everybody, and so there were some changes that were put in place here. Things like no win, no fee were abolished because that definitely drove it. Because we got law firms here that were specializing in a specific cat type of case. Like there was even at one point, if you'd gone to the hairstylist and been unhappy, come and talk to us, no win, no fee. And just suing hairdressers again, which you know, it just like you say that just becomes this whole bit then where it fuels that and people become angry, and the same within employment law here. That was very much. But unfortunately, whether the system we have now is correct, I couldn't tell you because we then swung back the other way, and so now it's very hard to take a case to court because it got so easy to take a case to court that then all the employers were were in some cases being sued for ridiculous things that led people to being, and at that time I employed people, and I was scared as an employer, as a small, because the chances are they were gonna come for the small guy, not the big guy, because I couldn't afford a huge legal team. It was like literally people could sue you for anything, so we have started now to I think maybe in other areas go down the mediation route, certainly for personal industry. For 32 years, I my original profession, I was a hairdresser, I worked internationally, had very successful salon, and in the last seven years of me having that business, we actually had mediation brought into complaints, and so effectively we actually as a as an industry we appointed our own mediation people, and so then if a Kaya complained and didn't wasn't happy with your answer, we as a business I would refer the client to mediation, and then those independent people would hear her side, I would respond, and I think it happened to me once in ten years, and in fact, yeah, it was left as it was and it went away. So we are maybe moving there slightly, but from a different angle. But I don't think we have it right in any way, shape, or form.

Dave Albrechta 59:50

No, and it's a tough balance to strike, right? This this isn't easy stuff. I'm not suggesting that there's like some simple fix here. And I again I'm a huge proponent of being able to sue a company that did a bad thing. That needs to be that needs to happen because without it, companies can do whatever they want, and that's not great. But on the flip side, just in the US within my lifetime, before when I was billboards, lawyers advertising on billboards didn't become a thing until probably the nineties, eighties and nineties. And you go to any big city in the US now, and all it is law firm advertisements everywhere, besides buses, billboards, phone books, so they're just everywhere. Phone books are outdated now. But the point is they're it's just such an industry that is so in by by collecting cases and processing this stuff, and it just it can get out of hand for sure. And it's necessary stuff, but you gotta find the balance.

Jody Brooks 1:00:49

And I can obviously, like I say, I visit America, my partners from Chicago, been to a couple of other places, and it was one of the things that blew me away when I was there is you drive down, we would call it the motorway, you call it the highway. Um, but you would drive down, and probably every hundred feet there is this huge billboard, and I would say probably 95% of them are law firms. Occasionally you might see a car or something else, but 95% of them are law firms. And I said to my husband, like that, what is that? Just it's just the norm kind of thing. So that advertising is almost pushing people in that direction. The moment someone feels oh, it is feels hard done to, they're like, I need a lawyer.

Dave Albrechta 1:01:39

That's right. Yeah, there's no other option. People just think that's what you do when you get hurt. And that's the the response to this, then, is like, yeah, that's fine, but we need to have other options for people that don't want to just go litigate, and lawyers need to be doing a better job of I anytime the pendulum swings like this, yeah, it'll come back, and people I think it'll be largely client-driven that clients just start seeing, hey, look, I don't want to participate in this, it's gross. The only people that really win are the lawyers. That's why they have advertising budgets like they do. The amount of money these law firms are spending on advertising, I couldn't even imagine. What and that just gives you sense of how much money they're making off of people and making off of injury injuries. And I and look, I was there. I'm not criticizing I was in it and doing that same thing. And but again, that's part of what created the this misalignment and and saw that I'm just peddling conflict. I'm just put just pushing people into the system because I need to survive and pay my bills, and I need X number of cases at any given time in order to know that I'm gonna have these payouts, and

Advice for Anyone Facing Conflict

Dave Albrechta 1:02:53

it's and so I get it, and we justify it saying that we're doing good work and we're protecting people and all this stuff, but uh, where's the balance between just trying to make as much money as we can and really truly helping people?

Jody Brooks 1:03:08

As always, I've just glanced at my clock and realized that my target of a one-hour episode is yet to be achieved. So and I'm lost in this conversation right there. So I do need to start wrapping this up and head us towards that finish line. I think what shines out for me in all of it there, and if I link it back to midlife, is a lot of what we experience when we hit a midlife crisis is actually a conflict, it's an internal conflict, and it's interesting that in your work you're talking about healing this external conflict. And I can't help but think for quite a lot of people in midlife, there are all sorts of things in that crisis that can land you for a lot of people. I know I've had quite a few clients who do have the relationship breakup who then find themselves in that position where they're gonna have to go to court, all those kind of things are possibly on the horizon. And to go back to that purpose of what you do now, what would you give as advice? Because it was very clear that you said not only are people not getting healed, but they're getting more injured in that process. So, what advice would you give to anybody who has a conflict in their life that might be heading towards a courtroom or to lawyers? What advice would you give them in making sure that's the right decision?

Dave Albrechta 1:04:45

Yeah. Um oh man, I think that I think that when you move into high conflict, and that that's a different level of conflict when you're getting lawyers involved. And it inherently escalates the conflict. It's designed to do that. There's no thing, that's what happens. And so I think watching a lot of people go through this, um A, you should get multiple opinions from multiple lawyers, just like the medical system. Every lawyer is gonna have a different opinion and a different approach, and you should talk to more than one person. Two is you need a support network, and that can look like anything. It can look like uh paying people. I think you should have a therapist, I think a coach is a great idea. Those are two very different things. Uh, I think that you know, having people that you can process this stuff with outside of your lawyer is really important because that's not what lawyers are trained to do. They don't want to do it, they're not interested in doing it, and it's more expensive a lot of times if you're using your lawyer like a therapist, which which we end up happens quite often. And so I think having a really good support. network and or you know that's like paid options or just making sure you've got friends and family that are kind of teed up to help you in that way also to just say hey I'm about to do this but can we just schedule a bi-weekly phone call where we can just chat about what's going on and I can blow off steam and and just you can help me process this stuff. You know, I think that's someone in your corner to help you get this stuff out. And then I guess the broader piece of advice is just consider all of your options. You know for people in the US and I again I can't speak as much to what's going on in the UK but there is a growing movement of lawyers that are doing this different. Actually one of the first lawyers I found doing it differently was in the UK calling himself the barefoot lawyer and he was propo really advocating for this type of approach. So it's everywhere it's worldwide and don't go talk to a conventional lawyer. I think you should do that. But also just do a little bit more digging and just look at the other alternatives that are out there. There are really interesting people doing interesting things merging these fields thinking about conflict in new ways. Uh I think a lot of people resonate with that and it but you need to go use it. You need to go look these people up and call them and talk to them and not be scared about a new approach. So those are I could say more but that those are the big pieces of advice I would give.

Jody Brooks 1:07:28

My favorite one in there is obviously go and get a coach. But but as you said that I have had clients in that position and I never really thought about it until you've said that there but there is a huge part for that where a question I ask them is quite often okay if that is the outcome how does that change how you feel and on a couple of occasions I've had people suddenly realize that's not going to change how I feel. So when you said there don't use the legal system as therapy I think it's being very clear about what is your reason for going down that road and is it really going to bring you the healing and the outcome that you want and maybe you need both maybe you need a coach and the legal system but don't expect one to do the job of the other I think that kind of clearly resonates there.

Dave Albrechta 1:08:17

That's exactly right and that as you that's why coaching's so powerful and amazing is to help people you know what lawyers don't do is they don't they will not spend time with you about why you want to be doing this. They will talk to you about lowercase why the facts the outcome the legal stuff the all of that but there's a deeper question there of does this align with your values? Does this align with who you are? Where do you want to be in two in a year, two years, three years? Is this a useful expenditure of your energy and time and resources in relationship to what you want your life to look like and how you want to be contributing to the world and how you want to show up and are there other ways to get that outcome if what you need is money in order to start the business of your dreams yes suing someone might be one way to get that money. Are there other options that don't drain you so much and allow you to show up as who you want to be so that's why coaching I think is so it's it's actually very incredibly complementary to going through the legal system. Um because it just does things that lawyers aren't equipped or trained to do that are really important questions that you got to ask as you're moving through the system.

Jody Brooks 1:09:35

That's great because I think it does certainly as coaches we've very good at getting people to be clear really clear on their destination and their outcome and so going into that process and being really clear about where you're going with it and what you want the outcome to be will ultimately limit any further injury that you gain through it. And also to reflect back personally there's an occasion in my life where I had to make the decision and everybody was very shocked that I decided to walk away and they were like but it it'll you can't like it'll be so easy like it's yours. It's a done deal and I just said I can't keep myself in that energy for the next three years.

Dave Albrechta 1:10:20

Yeah.

Jody Brooks 1:10:20

I need to let it go now okay I can't do that to myself so and I actually said and you know what at the end of it they're not going to say sorry. And that's right and my health and my well being is worth more than that check. In fact my wellbeing and my health is priceless and to a certain degree they've already injured it a bit but not to the magnitude they could in the next three years. So I'm just gonna leave it there and walk away. I don't need I've got closure because I know that what they did was wrong.

Dave Albrechta 1:10:53

That's all I need yes that's right it's such a healthy approach and and it doesn't work for everybody but I like a very very common pattern with clients was that the client didn't want to be doing it but everyone around them told them they should be right it it's really easy to be a supporter a family member a spouse a friend saying to your your friend yeah you got so screwed over and it's such a good case and my lawyer cousin told me you can get a million dollars and you got to do this and I've I've heard that so many times and and clients come in and they're like I just don't want to be doing this but everybody's telling me I have to and as a lawyer I would try to really help people and say look you're the one that your friend isn't the one that has to go sit and testify in front of a judge. It's really easy to sit back and tell someone that they should do that when you're not the one that has to live in it for three years um and do all the hard stuff. And if it's not how you want to be spending your time in your life it's your decision not other people's and it that's just such a common fact pattern that I would experience with people. And it it comes from a good place. Your friends and your family care about you they love you they want you to they want you to be well and they view that as a way to right or wrong but they don't see the other side of how damaging it can be for you too that's great.

Jody Brooks 1:12:18

I mean I have a slightly different take on that and that is everybody loves the drama when it's not theirs and that too that's absolutely true also. It's like we all love watching a courtroom battle on TV that's right oh and these people get front row seats to the real life you know reality show drama I know that is it yep that's right cool we are rapidly running out of time if not we already have yeah I think we both knew that that was going to happen when we chatted and when we started this episode I have loved the episode so much and before I sum that up in a minute I am sure there are people out there listening that will want to connect with you. And if they have any more questions or today I'm sure it has made people really think about the legal system and is that where they need to go and how can people connect with you and reach out and ask that question.

Dave Albrechta 1:13:20

Yeah so people can find me on my personal website right now. So it's Dave Albrecta which is A L B R E C H T A dot com. And you can schedule a free call with me on there just to chat and see what you have going on and how I can help. And then on that website also is my podcast Lawyers as healers if you're just interested in more I'm really breaking a lot of this stuff down and talking to actual lawyers out in the wild who are doing this work and trying new things and and so you can check that out too if you're into this conversation.

Jody Brooks 1:13:54

I'll put all of that in the show notes and I would presume as well there obviously you're in the States but if it was somebody somewhere else you're still able to talk to them about maybe not the country specific legal process but their mentality and their approach entering into it to find out whether it's the right thing for them.

Dave Albrechta 1:14:15

Yeah that's absolutely right the big picture of this is all the same. And as a coach I'm not giving legal advice and I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do as far as your case goes but the psychology of conflict is universal dare I say and and that all is the same and the feelings of hurt and revenge and anger and all the things that well up when you're in a conflict and that lead you to make these big decisions are all common and normal, natural and the same no matter where you are. So yes happy to talk to anyone

Final Wisdom and Closing

Dave Albrechta 1:14:50

anywhere about this stuff.

Jody Brooks 1:14:52

And like I say I will put all of those details in the show notes below I ask all of my guests the same final question. If you could plant a seed in the mind of the listeners today that would grow and bear fruit over time, what would that seed be?

Dave Albrechta 1:15:09

That seed would be understanding. Understanding is at the root of all of this of what we're talking about both things understanding as it relates to you and yourself and who you are um and anything you can do to understand your core being and and get in alignment with that is I I think what we all ought to be striving for. And then as it relates to conflict understanding is the key that unlocks resolution. And and what that really looks like is you know listening to understand other people really trying to understand where the other person's coming from and turning off your responses to everything and just saying like let me just try to understand what this person's experience is. And that can be in the smallest tiniest conflict it can be in the political sphere it can be in courtrooms uh but that that piece and that understanding will just unlock uh magical results if you really feel into it.

Jody Brooks 1:16:13

That's amazing Dave thank you so much um for today's episode it has been amazing I have sat here inspired throughout the whole thing so thank you I know that you're going off on a trip have a lovely trip so enjoy that thank you and again like I hope at some point in the future there'll be opportunity to have you back on the show and discuss further at length.

Dave Albrechta 1:16:38

I I would love that and thank you so much for the work you're doing and shining a light on this messy midlife period for everyone because I think it's just a natural part of our experience and uh I think it's so good to be uh sitting that and helping people see that's normal and thanks for a great conversation this has been amazing.

Jody Brooks 1:16:57

Great really my pleasure awesome I think what really stands out for me today messy midlife is is this conflict between our external identity and our internal identity and interestingly how that actually shows up in other parts of the world as Dave's spoken to it shows up in the courtroom ironically and that this identity that's external is sometimes where we've confused purpose and identity and got them muddled up and wrong. It's interesting that in both of them in his journey that he has ended up working as a mediator trying to resolve conflict through healing between people and organisations and within that law profession where what resonates for me is that the mediation and the healing that started that journey was his personal mediation between that internal disconnect and his external identity that many of us face. As always remember it may be messy but it's not a crisis it is a call in to connect and as always you're not broken you're becoming something you were always destined to be messy midlifers until the next episode take care and I'll see you then with me on Messi Midlife if this episode resonated please subscribe leave a review and share it with someone who might need to hear it today. You can find the show notes below and more resourcescoach.com or mental health take good care of yourself but it's not right it's it's a colour