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“I was either gonna die out there or make it” – British adventurer Annasley Park
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Join the H-Hour Patron Community at patreon.com/hkpodcasts ***** In this episode I welcome Annasley Park - a British adventurer and former elite cyclist who, after overcoming career-ending injuries and an eclectic journey through sports and global exploration, became one of only nine women ever to row solo and unsupported across the Atlantic Ocean. https://annasleypark.com/
We discuss Park stumbling into elite cycling after overtraining as a runner (Osgood-Schlatter’s and back pain), joining Team GB at 17–18, learning the brutal technicality and team tactics of track/road racing, and racing at the Doha World Championships alongside Lizzie Armitstead, while managing chronic pain, weight scrutiny, WADA/UKAD restrictions, and internal politics. We talked about the end of her pro cycling due to EILO (exercise-induced laryngeal obstruction) and unaffordable surgery, triggering an identity crash and jobs from cleaning to running a solo chalet in the French Alps, then four years in superyachting. After burnout and glandular fever in 2023, she did a 10-day silent Vipassana course, trauma-informed somatic training, and set out independently to row the Atlantic solo; after capsizing 10 hours in, she decided, “I was either gonna die out there or make it,” completed 54 days, and now builds a resilience framework around solitude, magnitude, and attitude, emphasizing authentic reputation, clear “why,” and support during reintegration.This episode is sponsored by Sin Eaters Guild - sineatersguild.co.uk
Welcome back to Hey H Hour. We have got another great guest lined up for you. If you have uh if you've just stumbled, not stumbled, if you've come to this podcast to listen to Anastlie and her interview on Hey Chour, and this is your first time coming to Hey H Hour, then please be aware that there is an earlier episode immediately before this one called The Hey H Hour Icebreaker with Anistlie Park. That is a 20-minute or so episode where uh I'm asking uh questions for her, submitted by patrons in advance of the podcast. And it was a QA session for about 20 minutes, like I just said, and it was very interesting. A good lead into this episode. And if you've come here to listen to her, you should also listen to that episode as well. I would suggest first before this one, but if not, you can listen to it after, in your own time, whatever, or you cannot listen to it at all, you can tell me uh bog off. I'm quite happy where you are. That's totally fine. If you want the opportunity to uh submit questions ahead of time, see the guest list, um, get access to private QAs with a guest and get access to the live link. There's people watching this live now, then you need to become a patron of Heychhower for as little as a five of a month. The link to do so is in the blurb of this, and uh, and thank you to all the existing patrons who support HeyChower. Enough of that. On to the podcast. Welcome, Anastly Park. Thanks, welcome, welcome. Uh, it is a real pleasure to have you in here. A big thank you to Liz McConaughey for the introduction. Oh, what a girl, what a woman. What a girl, what a woman. Yeah, um, and thank you to you for I mean, three days ago we start we met virtually, digitally on the phone, and now you're in the studio. Was it three days ago? Two days ago.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think something like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, maybe now you're here. So thank you for journeying down again.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much for having me.
SPEAKER_04Um I enjoyed the icebreaker. I've been looking forward to this podcast for a multitude of reasons, uh, because of uh events and experiences and things that you've done in your life, of which you are still very young, you've done so much already. Thanks. Okay, and all very extreme. I would like to talk first, if that's all right, yeah. About your time on the GB cycling team.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, is that right? Yeah, of course. I'd love to.
SPEAKER_04No, but what is I mean? It's a very open question. What is what is it like being at that level of elite athletic performance individually and part of a high performing team like that at the age you you became part of it? I think you were what 17 or 18 when you got into it?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, around about 17, 18.
SPEAKER_04How do you remember that time? What was it like? Do you remember the I mean talk me through it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I stumbled into it. I was a runner beforehand. Um, so I was running 8 and 15 and then 5k. I was eight and 15 a little bit. Yeah. Not to your level, obviously. Well, I mean, to be honest, I wasn't I wasn't that great, but I mean, you know, I I was doing all right, let's just put it that way. And um, yeah, I wanted to I wanted to go to Stanford University, like that was my dream to get as Stanford University. Yeah, I wanted to get to Stanford, and it was just like I had these twin boys that um were already at Stanford University come back to the UK and train, and like I always trained with lads, and um no, I don't uh no, I don't think so. No, but it was two stunning blonde boys who I used to run behind, I'd be like, oh but uh yeah, anyway, I uh that was my dream, go to Stanford, but um uh overtraining uh stopped me from from achieving that dream. So um I overtraining. Yeah, just too much overtraining started and at a young age as well.
SPEAKER_04What were you doing?
SPEAKER_00Um I was training, you know, six days a week and you know, just training hard. And uh I didn't give my body enough time to actually have that growth spur and grow into my body. Um, and that was purely from my drive, you know, not from you know external pushes. Like my parents were so, so supportive. Like I could not have had better parents um who were always just wanting to sort of support whatever I decided to do. So yeah, my focus is just always like hitting things really hard. It was like go home or nothing. Um, but yeah, I got um Osgood Slatters uh in the knees, and um I was You got what in the knees? Uh Osgood Slatters. Basically, it's where you say Otters Slatters. It's like Osgood Latters, it's uh it sounds like that.
SPEAKER_02Spell it for me.
SPEAKER_00I really don't know how to spell it. Okay, but it's like search it and you'll you'll see.
SPEAKER_04Um basically it's where I'm deaf as well, so it doesn't like you. Uh oh, okay, yeah, I see. Osgood Osgood Latters isn't it? O S-G-O-O-D-S-E-H-L-A-T-T-E-R. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. I mean somebody who has dyslexia, it doesn't really come out that well, but it's come out well today. So um, but anyway, yeah, I um I got that, and also um I was uh also starting to get quite a lot of back trouble. So um I I was on at the risk of sort of bulging a disc. So I had to pick up a sport that um was uh not impacting any of my joints and stuff. So I picked up cycling as part of my rehab and um and actually realized that I can go a lot further and uh it's like driving a car for the first time, you can just escape. And I my escape was in the mountains, so um yeah, I I loved it. And a couple of years later, well, I joined a a team um that was a local team, but then turned UCI male team. So I had to come out of that and join a few clubs. So I joined a few clubs and then um got into a racing team called RST. And then yeah.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I've heard of RST.
SPEAKER_00So there's the RST um motorbike kit.
SPEAKER_04Um there's also I've heard of the RST racing team.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so RST, and then um I got into the next team, which was the Giodana Triton team. And when I was racing for Giordana, um I had a good race at Otley GP with myself and Sarah Story, and I won that race which pricked up the years of bridge cycling. Um and so yeah, they asked me to come down and do some testing, and uh yeah, I got selected a year later and so moved to Manchester after finishing um college. And and yeah, it was just I I'd never ridden the track before, and they wanted me to go on the track and also the road. Um, and you know, I was with all the other girls who had raced from you know, from when they could first walk on the track, and uh and yeah, uh it was just really sort of like intense period. So I did a bit of training beforehand uh to get used to understanding what it felt like to ride on the track. And then when I moved to Manchester, it was straight in sort of like building your own bikes and and getting on the track and you know being so close to people's wheels and team pursuit training. And yeah, it was it was a full-on time.
SPEAKER_03Did you did you prefer it to a road or not?
SPEAKER_00There was parts of it that I really enjoyed. I loved that um that feeling, like when the Revolution series, which is like a series that you do um on the track, when you're when you're doing that, the buzz is so electric and it's just such a a great feeling, and especially like when you're swinging really hard up the track and then you're coming down and in a team pursuit, and everything just feels smooth and there's no sort of fight, and everything just feels like it's just on your side. It's the most amazing feeling, but um some of the training days I found really difficult because I'm I'm kind of I'm not a sprinter, I'm not a climber, I'm just kind of an all-rounder. I can just get shit done uh and and work and bury myself. Um but yeah, I I love the road and I really love the criterion. So, like they're a short circuit in a town centre, uh, and again, the buzz is electric. It's so so much fun, and it's an hour of just solid go-hard every second, um, through every corner, every chicane, uh, every straight. And uh it's a it's a game of tactics, but yeah, um, I'd say that was my strongest area, and then the sort of um sort of 10-day stage races was my worst. I just dreaded them because yeah, I just I wasn't like I say a climber and I just hung on. I wasn't a sprinter. Um, I I was you know a domestic, so I would go to the cars, get bottles for my team, and I loved that that element to it, knowing that my purpose wasn't to win a race, it wasn't you know, to come top 10, it was to make sure that my team were in the best position to get that first for that other person. I love that.
SPEAKER_04It didn't it interests me the way the that those teams were. I don't fully understand it to be honest. In my head, it's like, okay, if I'm gonna be on a team, if I was gonna be on a team like that, then surely everyone should be vying to win. Now, when it comes to team tactics, obviously it's not the case, but that's not how cycling works. And there's and there's people of varying abilities, varying different strengths, like you just explained. But I still don't understand the maca the mechanics of it. So how is it decided, like how is it decided who's gonna win on a given day? Yeah or and and how are the overall tactics played out? I it boggles my mind. Yeah, it seems extremely complex.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you have your your sprinters and you have your climbers, and on the you know, the the hilly days, you know, that you're gonna be working for your hill climbers. Um, and you know, if it's a uh you know a good sprint, then you'll have your sprinter there and protect the sprinter um all the way um to the footage.
SPEAKER_04Try and give them an an innovative commerce, an easier ride until sprint time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, you're always protecting your riders. I mean, if you've if you've got a good um, you know, uh QOM coming up, so that's uh Queen of the Mountains, then you know, and you know that maybe there's a few riders ahead, you would send somebody like me to go and chase the brake and then bring them back to the Peloton uh if your rider isn't in it. Um so that for me was the best part was just knowing that I'd done my job. Um you know, I remember there was a moment um at the uh World Championships in Doha, um, which was such a turning moment, and I always I have a photo that I've got on my social media that um it's just no one will understand how much that meant to me, this this particular moment. So when I was about 14, I was sat in my my bedroom in a tiny little box bedroom, and uh I was watching Lizzie Armistead now Dagnan. Um she got silver at the uh Olympics, and it was raining, it was just yeah, miserable weather, and just watching her celebrate that was just the most incredible thing, and that kind of sparked me to go like I would love to be in the Olympics out or race with her, and um and then yeah, I found myself um at the Doha, um, which was a task in itself to get there for various reasons, which I'm sure we'll might get into. Um, but yeah, that was a a really tough place for me to get to. So when I was at the start line and I was with Lizzie Armistead, who was the world champion at the time, and we were trying to retain her title. Um yeah, I remember we were racing, it was really hot, and you know, we were at the front, and uh and Lizzie comes up to me and uh and she goes, you know, these two riders who are world-class riders are gonna go off. And when they do, Anne Z, you will chase them and bring them back. And she passed me a gel.
SPEAKER_04What do you mean bring them back? Sorry to interrupt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you're just disrupting their cycle. So you when you're doing a through and off and you're trying to, you know, get a gap, um, you're not pulling through. You're just literally sitting at the back and just slowing it down and being a not a menace, but just yeah.
SPEAKER_03Could create a bit of drag then.
SPEAKER_00Um, oh when you're sat behind, yeah. I mean, Marion Voss uh and you know, Kirsten Bard, who are great riders. I mean, you can hopefully just hold on to them. And I was literally hanging on, and um, and yeah, she passed me a gel, which you know, well the world champions passing you a gel and giving you that inspiration. Like that that is you know the most incredible experience to have looked over my right shoulder and to have just had that experience. I I just remember going back into my mind and going, This was what I dreamed of, and this was my Olympics, like this for me couldn't get any better. And uh, and then yeah, when I um when I finished um at the end and was sort of sat down and had a moment to myself, there was this image that was taken of me, and it just brings back pure emotion because um there was a few people that tried to stop me from getting there. Um, but I built a team around me that believed in me that I could get there, and um, it just showed me that you know when you've got the right people around you who truly believe that you can get there no matter the cost, then they will get you there. And yeah, it wouldn't be without them really.
SPEAKER_04Where did you get you mentioned earlier, you've got the ability to I can't remember the uh I can't remember the phrasing you used, you've got the ability to just dig in, dig into yourself, knuckle down, and just put yourself through immense pain and hardship to you know perform at elite level mentally and physically. Where does that determination and drive come from?
SPEAKER_00I think it was uh for me, it's definitely been uh from the people that I've been surrounded by, and I've been so lucky with the the mentors and the people that I've looked up to. You know, um I've been surrounded by uh uh a lot of people that are from a military background, and um and yeah, they've shaped who who I am as a person. And you know, when you watch loved ones walk out the door um to, you know, maybe go on a military operation or whatnot, you don't know whether they're gonna come back. And uh, and if they do, they're not the same person that walked back through that door. But for me, I knew that safety, security, and risk were the sort of three aspects that I knew I couldn't control. So for me, safety is an illusion. Security, if we're always seeking for it, then you know what what opportunities are we missing? And the risk element, if we if we manage it well, then we can really sort of tap into that unlimited potential. Um, and so that's what you know that process taught me from uh you know watching the loved ones go and come back. Um, and in that space in between, I got to learn a lot about what it takes to just crack on. Um, and so yeah, I think for me that's kind of been the start of my journey for pushing boundaries.
SPEAKER_04Do you remember the first time you you did something a physically and mentally extremely tough event, for example?
SPEAKER_00Remember the first thing that you did where you thought where where you thought where you became proud of yourself for pushing through I would say um I'd say it was at the world championships. That was my first proper like moment of going no not many people, hardly anyone actually, not even you know, my parents knew the amount of shit that I'd gone through. Um because I didn't want to put it on my parents, I didn't want to put it on those that you know knew me. I just had to just keep proving to and at the time I was proving to others that I was capable of doing the things that they didn't want me to achieve.
SPEAKER_04Um you're talking about internal sort of sport team politics, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean uh you know I've been surrounded by some incredible coaches, incredible coaches, again, who I am so lucky to have, but there's been one or two people um within certain industries that have wanted to see me fail. And uh what reason? Um I think when you're in um a certain industry, you're reminded of the fact that you are just the number. You are just the number and um you are very irreplaceable. And when you're when your face doesn't fit, um or you know, you're you you don't you can't just for example, you can't just jump on a bike. For me, I couldn't just jump on a bike and ride it. I had to know every single detail, like that it was the micro adjustments rather than these, you know, macro adjustments. The micros are if my saddle was put down by half a mil, I could feel it. If you know, I rode different pedals or if I had a different stem, like for me, those were big changes, and my back injury that I was carrying from my running side that would flare up, and every day I would wake up in pain. Like this is the bit where I struggled inside. Every day, regardless when you were I'd wake up in pain, but I'd have to manage it because I didn't have anything to fall back on, I didn't have uh an education to fall back on, I didn't have qualifications, and all I knew was sport, and that was my only time to feel like I could have that freedom. And if I didn't have my sport, I was nothing. And so that's how you felt. Yeah. And so I knew that I had to manage it as best as I could. But when I when it flared up or when it would got too much, I I sometimes had to just put my hands up and say, I just need a minute to sort this out. And a lot of the time it was either mask it or you're out, and um, I knew that I just I couldn't do anything apart from just carry on, and you know, it creates saddle sores, you're sitting in the wrong position, so you're constantly sat on massive blisters, um, which is the most uncomfortable thing. And you know, when you get time off to spend either with your boyfriend or um, you know, you you're just constantly uncomfortable and you don't have a life at all. Um, and it's constantly on your mind.
SPEAKER_04It's also it must be an immense pressure to burden yourself with there that you've got no choice but to crack on you regardless, which obviously isn't true, yeah. You know, that's just the perception of your situation at the time, right?
SPEAKER_00At the time, yeah. And it again, it's like I didn't have a huge amount of life experience out of the sort of sporting world. It my my life was dedicated on sport, and and that's what I loved. Like again, like was my freedom. It was the only time I got to feel that state of flow. And I I'm very much a person that wants to, I'm very deep uh in regards to how I think and how I feel.
SPEAKER_03And you're very you're what's very deep.
SPEAKER_00I'm a deep, deep thinker, deep in a way, feeler. Um, and so you know, when I get to almost forget the data, it's how I how I feel and what I know in my body. And again, a lot of it was data driven, you know. Why are you not creating certain powers? And you know, why why is this not happening? And why are we not seeing these results? And it was because I knew that my body couldn't cope, and I knew I needed to take control of my training in certain areas because I knew that my body was gonna break, and it did. So, yeah, I mean, I I left the GB team um because I just wasn't able to have that control of my training, and I knew that I could do so much more, so I went and signed a pro contract for Trek Drops, which was again an amazing team, and I've been surrounded by some incredible people in cycling. So, you know, it's only a fair few that I'm you know, unfortunately, had had to deal with that. But again, I'm very grateful for those opportunities where I had to learn from those people too. But um, yeah, I I signed a pro contract uh and raced with them for about a year and a half, I think, um, or a year. But um I have a condition called EILO. Not many people know about it, it's uh exercise induced laryngeal obstruction, and it's basically where you over-train or you you train hard, but you have a bad breathing technique, and so you create too much scar tissue on your larynx, and that creates too much um lactate in your body because when you get to a certain threshold, you can't get in the oxygen that you need. So you know you can push harder, but you physically, your anatomy is not able to do that because yeah, you can't get that oxygen in as much, and you it goes to like a wheeze, almost like an asthma attack, but it's not. Just it's because it's not chemically changed, it's an actual uh physical problem, and um, and so yeah, I couldn't afford the operation, and um, and so that forced me to stop fully because I was at you know in Australia at the time, and it just got so bad to a point where I was you know not producing the results, and I felt like a failure, and I was looking like stupid, like I felt stupid. Do you know what I mean? I felt like this isn't me, and um I knew that I had to stop because I didn't want to get the reputation of oh, she's coming in last again, you know.
SPEAKER_04What uh can you tell me what the training regime was like? So, what was it like a Team GB and what was it like a was it track drops?
SPEAKER_00Did you say Trek Drops, yeah?
SPEAKER_04So what just generally speaking, what what was the training regime? What is the training regime like for a cyclist at that level?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it depends on what phases you're in um and what uh stages in the year you're in. So like track is predominantly winter period, uh, and then uh sort of springtime, you've got the spring classics for the road, and then you've got the road races uh in the summer, um, and then it'll come back onto the track sort of autumn, winter time. So in your track sort of seasons, you're you're putting on the weight um and you're creating that power um that you need, and then you're gonna have to drop the weight then to then be able to do those um 10-day stage races if they're 10-day stage races and hilly stage races as well. You've got the you know, world um uh you've got the spring classics um and you know, all the world tours as well. So yeah, it's it depends, but you know, as some days, especially in the winter when you train on the track, you could, you know, you ride from the house on your train and bike to the track, then you build your bike up, you build your bike up on the track um or for the track, and then you do a two- You mean you you you modify the bike ready for the track? No, so you've got your road bike and then you've got your track bike. Yeah. So your track bike's at the Vellodrome. So you you have your frame and then you've got either it depends on what uh wheels you're training on that day. Um, so you could either have uh two discs, uh one at the back, one uh behind, or maybe one disc, just depending on the again the training session. Um and then so yeah, you you build your your setup. So whether it's um you want harder resistance or not so hard a resistance, and again, your coach can say, right, I want you on a um uh uh hard gear today, and that can be a certain gear or an easier gear. So yeah, it's obviously a fixed, a fixed bike or a fixed chain. So you build your bike up um so that it's everyone's either at either on the same gearing or a little bit different depending on who's at the front and who's at the back and whatnot. But um, yeah, and then you do your track session and then you come off, you maybe have a few hours, and then you either do another track session or you've got a gym session in the afternoon, and then on one of the uh days of the week, you'd have um a race in the evening, so you'd have three sessions, and also you'd be riding to and from the track. So it was it would be a lot on some days. Um good question.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, why so on a track session, why would what would be the reasons for opting for one disc or two discs? What what's the difference? Um apart from braking ability, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So and weight, obviously. Uh so like if you're um if you're doing like team pursuit stuff and you're training for uh you know a race, or if you're looking at your times um in your splits and stuff, then you might go for two discs.
SPEAKER_04Whereas if you want to get because you're more when you're saying I'm thinking bricks, you're thinking discs, I'm thinking disc bricks. You're not talking about disc bricks, you're talking about the type of wheels.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. Sorry, no, that's my that's my mistake. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, cyclists listening to this road cyclists and go, you're fucking idiot here. You're not fine.
SPEAKER_00Not at all, no, I should have explained it. Yeah, so disc wheels, so yeah, they're more aerodynamic. So because again, like you, you know, you've got um it you can have like um we have a a sort of stall in the middle, and it has a uh a TV and it's got all your stats on there, so they can measure like um your um oh what's the word? Um how aerodynamic you are. Um and so they can look at the resistance on the bike and and you and there's there's so much detail that they can go into. Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_04It does seem one of those incredibly technical sports, incredibly technical. I w I'm and I think which it's like to the same level as not a similar level, yeah, in terms of focus is like as I s as I see F1. You know, there's like one except that in F1, the human element is far much more less of a percentage of uh of the input into actually the performance of the vehicle on the day. Whereas cycling, the human element is the majority of the you know the majority of it. Yeah, but uh that m that I mean that kind of training regime and the level of technicality and the analysis that goes into it trying to try and get that winning edge, must lead to I mean it must make for some pretty interesting like cultural dynamics and in the personal relationships within the teams and with other teams as well, right? Incredibly competitive.
SPEAKER_00100%, yeah. I mean, for somebody like me who I would wake up and I the first thing I'd do is do like my rehab, and I'd be in, you know, waking up two hours before my other teammates. I'd share a a house with like three or four, sometimes five teammates, and I'd be up two hours before, and you know, so losing that sleep so that I could get rid of some of the pain so that I could get through the day. Um, and so in a way, and some of the other girls that you know would go out and party sometimes, and I wouldn't be partying at all, I'd be rehabbing, I would be, you know, making sure that my nutrition was on point. And I always felt like I was trying to have to chase chase the girls because I would see them jumping on the bike and just cracking on, and I'd just I'd be so envious that they could do that, and I couldn't understand why I couldn't do that. Um, and so yeah, I think again what, 18, 19 years old? Yeah, yeah. But then as well, like still a kid, yeah, yeah, and you you know, you're still growing into your body, and a lot of these girls, you know, they were also get got to the point where they were weighing leaf lettuce and all that kind of stuff. They were really, really focused on how much they were eating, and and we, you know, we were getting fat tested a lot. Um, so um we'd if we put on too much weight, then we would be told to take it off. Um, you know, and everything is measured, you know, you're on the anti-uh UK anti-doping system and water system, so um, you know, wada could turn up at any time. So anything you put on your body, creams, anything you eat, drink, medication, you're constantly thinking about all of that, you know, where you're going, um, what time you're going. You have to log it all. So everything in your life is measured to the point where you know David uh Bray Brailsford talks about marginal gains, like everything.
SPEAKER_04How are you managing the pain that you're constantly in then? Um I'm just on the subject of wada and um what was the UK one?
SPEAKER_00UK anti-doping.
SPEAKER_04Oh, UK anti-doping, yeah. Because like you couldn't just pick up any painkillers and start wagging them down, you know. How were you managing it then?
SPEAKER_00No. So a lot of the time it was just a lot of rehab. So I was actually, I was, I wasn't really using any painkillers. Um, no, I wasn't using any of that um purely because it scared me. Um and you know, we had a scared you and what because of the dope. Yeah, yeah. I just I didn't want to I I didn't and also I knew that that was just a mask. I wanted to be able to really, really tackle it. Um, because even if I took a painkiller, it wasn't gonna get rid of it. It was I needed to change, I needed almost deload my my training so that I could get on top of it, which I managed to do just before the world championships. I I was taking a I took myself away from from the team um and was then I built a team that I shouldn't have had, um, who were part of the GB team, who were the podium coaches, so you know, the kinesthetic coach, gym coach. Um, and you know, even though I was told I wasn't allowed it, I made it happen and they they invested their time in me. And we had three months together and um and we we deloaded and then we we built it back up, and man, I felt the best I'd ever felt. You know, I was I was in the my best weight, um my best shape of my life, and I felt it, and it just felt so good. And then as soon as I knew I had to step back into the team and you know, go on the road, and we moved out to Belgium, it just all came back, and I just didn't have enough time to keep on top of it.
SPEAKER_04And then the uh exercise induced laryngeal obstruction.
SPEAKER_00Did I get that right? Yeah, exercise induced laryngeal obstruction, maybe can I ask a question?
SPEAKER_04I want to come on to that in a minute, but uh come back on come back onto that in a minute, but yeah uh would it have been around the same time as you were on that team that the documentary Icarus dropped?
SPEAKER_00Uh I don't know, but probably not. No, no.
SPEAKER_04When were you on that team?
SPEAKER_00Um I was on Trek Drops uh 2018 to 2019.
SPEAKER_04Oh before that though?
SPEAKER_002017.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay, before that. That's another reason that I was interested in talking on the on the on the cycling piece is because uh it's kind of it's kind of had to go through a an enforced well like cultural change, I think, over the last 10, 15. I'm assuming I've never been in it, I've never been in a prose like this, but uh the obviously the Lance Armstrong stuff way before K Rest and Nick was dropped, and then you meant you know you mentioned uh the Wiggins stuff, you know, all those stories about professional cycling in general and what seemed to be like endemic doping throughout. Uh there was a question on the iceberg, and I can't remember which one it was. And I was thinking about the choice of people to dope. And I think quite often that okay, it's really easy to sit on the outside. I'm not me suggesting you're involved in any of that, I was here, but you were in the industry, right? Yeah, and it's really it's really easy to look from the outside and go, I think Lance Armstrong is a prime example. I think he may have talked about this himself, and I'm not like uh admonishing him of any wrongdoing here, but if everyone in the industry at that level or in the competition at that level is doing it. You have a choice, obviously. But does it make it wrong to do it if everyone else is doing? Does it make it less moral does it is there any moral issues with it? It's like it's it's a it's a crazy thing to think about. Yeah, I mean because it was it seemed to be across the board. Yeah. And and uh it's men's cycling, obviously gets highlighted on it. I find it hard to believe it's only but it could equally only be men's cycling. No, I mean it was it was everywhere, was it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it's it's everywhere. I think if if you know people think it's just men, that's just crazy. I mean, it's gonna be in all sports, it's gonna be not exactly not just cycling.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. And cycling is the one that got caught.
SPEAKER_00It is, unfortunately, yeah. And you know, I was at a time in my career where shit went down in British cycling in in Manchester, and you know, I think there was I I I don't like to get involved in all of that because it for me it was just wasn't my world. Um, and I just remember the moments that I just I felt really sorry for certain people. Um, you know, Bradley Wiggins being one of them, it was just a really rubbish situation for everyone involved. Um, and yeah, I just anyway, it's such a shame because cycling is such an incredible sport, um, and just the sort of the moments that I understand of and I know of, it's it has put a massive tarnish in the cycling world. Uh and yeah, cycling got a massive hit for it. But you know, I think the role models and again, people like Braddy Wiggins, Mark Cavendish, they were my role models. I remember sitting next to them uh on the track side and just going, wow, and they had time for me, you know. I remember being in the physio room and and I just had a crash, and Mark Cavendish watched my my race back and he was just like, Yeah, if you'd just done that, then and I was just like, You are he was just giving you advice on it, yeah, yeah. And you know, sitting next to Chris Hoy um and Bradley Wiggins on the track side, he would always open the doors for me. He was just the most amazing person, and um, and you know, I believed in every single one of them being the purest of their kind, and I don't see them in any way, you know, people like that at all, like drug takers. I just don't, and um, and for me that's my view, and and I I think that they're my idols in a way. Um, and yeah, you'll you'll always get people who want to cheat. Uh, I don't think you you know you can run away from that. But at the same time, you know, that's where we have to sort of come together and stamp it down and and get it out. But it the truth comes out at the end of the day, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04It does. I there's a there's a cycling's an interesting one, but interesting sport because it's got a weird like the sports which are big and popular, and there are sports which have like this culture, this like cult no cult like following. Yeah, and cycling has that. Like it has a lot of weirdo sports and fans, you know, and who are like cult culturally obsessed with the sport. I'm not inflating it, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_00It's really cool, actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But you don't get the same, for example, with running marathons, you know, you don't get that, and the the level of athleticism and elitism is the same, yeah, you know, but you don't get that your absolute fan commitment to going to all the races, buying all the gear, and you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, apart from football and rugby. No, let's not talk about football.
SPEAKER_04Rugby you can talk about, you don't talk about football. Well, you can't talk about rugby until after the Six Nations is over and my whale's pain is ending.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I know, I know. Such shame. Oh my god. But yeah, I mean, cycling, I think there's so many people that are dedicated to it, and this is the beauty of having uh you know, being part of the cycling world is that there are so many good things to the cycling world, and um, and there are so many good people in the cycling world too. Um, you know, like I say, you're always gonna find a thorn at some point, but I mean, it allows us to learn from from those people, and in a way, it's an opportunity to sort of say, well, where do we where have we gone wrong and where can we put it right? So, yeah, I think everything um that we go through, whether it in cycling or whether it be in rugby, um or or football or whatever, um, you've just got to manage it.
SPEAKER_04And uh you you mentioned earlier, but so so one of the things that puts me up puts me off that sport, uh, if I was ever gonna get into any sport like that ever is the crashes, are the crashes my god, yeah. The crashes and the minimal protective equipment being worn, right? That's like a helmet, yeah. Cheers for that. Like not gonna do much uh crash at that speed with that many things flying around. How often would would a cyclist expect does everyone crash? Is it guaranteed gonna happen a big smash at some point? Yeah, 100%. There's no way to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you you've you've got to have a you've got to have a good crash at some point. Yeah. I mean, if you haven't got if you haven't got a coat hanger on one side, you've got a coat hanger on both. So I mean the coat hangers are like these little lumps that you have on your shoulders. So I've got one from a broken collarbone. Yeah, from a broken collarbone. So uh it's like the box having a broken nose, right? Exactly, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, everyone's got to have a good fall at some point. Uh I've had my fair share, let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, no. I bought uh so it's completely off topic. My my I I cycle back and forth to the gym. I cycle everywhere I can or I walk, right? Right where I live. And my uh my mountain bike, this cheapy mountain bike, got nicked a few months back. And I thought, right, I need to get I need to get another one. And I went on, I went on to uh it was eBay and it was this bike going. It was a it was a Chris Boardman bike. It was it basically it was a flat handlebar road bike. I had never owned a road bike, I have owned a road bike that also got nicked, but it was that was a cheapy one as you and it was like a drop handlebar. Yeah. This was a flat road bike, right? And I rocked up to pick this thing up from it, it was being sold by uh a bike charity. Rocked up to get this thing, completely refurbished, brand spanking use, weighed seven kilograms. Oh nice. I was like, what? Yeah, it was crazy. Like my mountain bike weighed about 16. Yeah, it's crazy to pick this thing up, and it's so easy to cycle. It I hang it up on like hooks outside my outside my front door. It's just beat them up to cycle. However, my god, do I feel unsafe going around corners? If there's the hint, the slightest hint of a of a anything other than a very warm surface to cycle on. I I hate going over drains. I feel like every corner I'm gonna be crashing. If I have to slam my brakes on, because it's so light, I'm going over the handlebars, it's just happening. And always in my mind the cycling is big cycle crashes I've seen on like Instagram and everything. Oh, it cannot be me.
SPEAKER_00It cannot be me. I know. Well, I mean, if you if you've you know, if you've got the uh your clip-ons, uh I don't know. Clip-on-shot-ons, I know. No, your cleats. If you you know, if you've got cleats on, um and yeah, yeah, you don't take your foot out when you're at the traffic light or something, then and everyone's done it, and uh you kind of need to go through that process and look like a fool once or twice. Um yeah, I've got normal pedals on. I've got normal pedals, those cleats cleats, cleats, baby.
SPEAKER_04No, thank you. No, thank you. Anyway, right, um exercise induced laryngeal obstruction. Was that okay? You were talking about a decision point though, where you're like, I need to stop because I won't need to stop or feel like I I embarrass myself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that was uh what stop and get out of the sport.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I I just it was just the start of the uh road season. I just finished uh the tour down under in Australia with the team, and uh and I just knew that I needed to get it sorted. So and it takes a long time. There's only you know one specialist really that or maybe two, but you know, there's one in particular that I was trying to uh see so that I could um you know go through the process of getting it operated on, and um, and yeah, I just couldn't afford it. And uh I knew that if I wanted to carry on, I needed to get that done. Was it not funding through the team to do that? No, I mean the team was an amazing team, it was a UCI team, but um, you know, the team just couldn't afford such an expensive operation. It was it is an expensive one to do. So yeah, um I knew that that was kind of my my end really. Um Do you remember was there do you remember specifically making that decision? Yeah. Yeah, I remember I I just took myself out for a bike ride. Um I was living at in sort of around Bilth Wells area at the time, and there's the Raider Dams, which I used to love and go going up and riding around. And um I I just sort of, yeah, I I rode to the top of the mountain and and rode down past uh the first dam, um, and it's where the bouncing bomb was actually um created. Um, and then yeah, I I just sat uh on one of the walls and I just said like I can't achieve what I know I can achieve if I can't afford it. And I I I don't want to ask any of my parents to to chip in.
SPEAKER_04Did they know you were going through this problem?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I just didn't really, I didn't want to bring it. Yeah, I just didn't I didn't want to bring it back into the I didn't my there were people that had stresses as of their own, and I just didn't want to add to that. And uh I just knew that you know I needed to make a decision because we were coming into a season and I didn't want to hold a position that could be for somebody else. And the team were gutted, um, and I had to explain my reasons as to why. Um, and it it didn't come lightly at all. But I knew that for my team to be able to advance and and you know get the results that I knew that they could do and get, um, I needed to come away. And step away, so yeah, and that really sort of left a whole emptiness in my life because old were you at that point? I think I was what 21, 20, 22, and yeah, I lost everything, like no purpose, all the labels that people knew me for, or I knew of myself as professional cyclist or sporty girl, and now I had nothing. You know, I went to work cleaning uh toilets and which I again it was an amazing job. Like, you know, very lucky.
SPEAKER_03You went to work in where?
SPEAKER_00I went to work and like clean toilets and clean, you know, holiday homes, which it's a therapeutic job, but I I knew that going from the world that I was in to you know doing that job was just I was like, wow, right is a hard crash.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I must imagine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was. It was massively hard. And so I thought, well, what can I do that doesn't require a qualification? And um, and and you know, makes I can make some money and actually maybe experience the world. Um, you know, because I've missed so much of that teenage life. I didn't know what it was like to go out and party. And, you know, I'd split up. Well, I I was still with my my partner at the time, but I just knew that you know I hadn't seen him. It was a long distance relationship. Um, you know, he was traveling to various countries a lot, and it was kind of like I hadn't seen him for like two years, and I just put all my eggs into every everything that I just needed to escape. So yeah, I found a job working out in the French Alps, and um, I was the only one in Mirabelle running a 12-man chalet by myself, you know, cooking, cleaning, um, maintenance. It was just crazy. But I needed that pressure of knowing that I was meant to be delivering a uh a chalet every week to 12 guests, turning around on the same like same day changeovers. And also I was I was, you know, getting up at five, um finishing at like 10 o'clock at night, uh, and trying to get a ski in during the day if I could, um, and then going out partying until you know stupid hours in the morning. And if my bread was at the at the door before I got to the door, I knew that I was, you know, there was no time for sleeping. It was straight in making continental breakfasts and full cooked breakfasts. So yeah, it was it was uh an amazing time.
SPEAKER_04Horrendous for fatigue as well. I'm thinking back to some like you know, military and going, my god, yeah, like felt so bad, but felt so good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. I mean, to be honest, when you're in a world where you know drugs was not a thing and alcohol wasn't a thing, and then you're exposed to that, and it was big in Maribel, it was big in the whole three valleys, you know, you kind of test the waters, and um yeah. So you know, I was I was completely out by that point, and I thought, well, do you know what I'm I'm gonna do it? So I I had that sort of very intense period of of testing it, uh testing it all, and um and yeah, just uh having a moment of just trying to escape, really. Um and no one knew who I was and I was gonna leave um and uh leave with some fantastic friends, but at the same time, it didn't stop the fact that I still had nothing. Like, you know, the season was gonna end and I I had nothing still. You know, I had a season under my belt, but that was it.
SPEAKER_04This is one of the most underrated things about the of the professional sports person's life that I think put people that normal people uh I include myself in that, totally, totally overlook, and that is when there is an injury. Or and the example that's going on in in like Welsh rugby at the minute, where your team gets is on the verge of collapse because of funding or whatever, and and your whole everything you are built for competing at elite level is ripped away, and the identity is is ripped away, and a band-aid, not a band-aid, but the a wound is exposed that it you cannot you it's very hard to fix. Um and uh and it similar situation to the thing is that that there that experience is it it's a common the symptoms of it or the effect of it are common to other walks of life. Someone who gets made unexpectedly redundant from a a career they built everything around, an industry they built everything around, or the industry sinks, you know. Um uh but I think for people who are competing at elite levels like you were, there's so much more emotional investment in it and so much more at stake, and it's so much harder to overcome, yeah. Like that. And then you build into that with yourself, the the young age at which it happens why I asked about the age you're at, because people who have uh have been in it longer and they're a bit older, they have more experience, they've seen other people go through similar things and sort of learn a bit from it, and they've got a bigger network to get deal with it on. And uh but you know, that wasn't the case with you at 21 years old to go through that is like horrendous. I think we I don't know if we mentioned it on air or off air, but to be in that environment of that level of competition at that age, yeah, is literally it will it it it moulds particular people in a unique way, very different to everyone else, yourself. Yeah, and then to have the addition of yeah, by that career, you you everything everything that define you think defines you by is gone. Yeah. Everything you and everything you think that makes you valuable into in your social network in life to other people, it's gone. Yeah, it's not you anymore.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean you you're not you're not in front of camera, you're not inspiring people anymore. Like, you know, you're not able to go. I mean, I love going into schools and and talking about cycling and how kids can get into it.
SPEAKER_04And your entire social network was all built around people who are doing the same thing. And now they have got no reason to be speaking to you because as you've got as time not no reason, but as time goes on, your common ground gets less and less and less and less. And it's the same with the military. You leave the military day one after leaving, it's all right, because you still know everything, you're still current with what's going on. You know all the inside info, you've still got stuff you can talk about. Two weeks later, a little bit less. Ten years later, pfft, doesn't matter. The people you knew 10 years ago, they they you you're totally different people, yeah. You know, and you you end up not talking and you've lost you've lost that um you said it earlier, you mentioned it like a that sense of that's like a sense of belonging, I suppose, as well.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah. I mean, as humans, we we work on feeling like we belong in a pack, right? Where it's a tribal feeling, if you're not part of a community, then you're gonna die. Um, and it's that feeling of like you're outcast, and if you're outcast, you're very vulnerable. And um, and yeah, so I was in a way, this last sort of eight years has been a search for um trying to find that purpose, or even in a way, ask the questions as to, you know, what is what is my role, what is my purpose, what is who am I, you know, and um and I think it's been such a beautiful experience going from the shallow work to then working as a white water raft guide uh and living in you know the most simplest of ways, and the most and I loved that space because it was so simple. And then work going like 180 and living on 91 meter super yachts with some of the richest people in the world, and you know, scrubbing teak because you know there's a tiny bit of a crumb on there that's put an oil mark on the teak, and you are stressing about every little detail. Um, and go to the most incredible places that you wouldn't ever see if you know you weren't on a yacht, you know, you got your food made for you three times a day, yeah, you know, you get ridiculous money. Um, that's you know, wages and tips, it's all tax-free, everything's done for you. Um and so yeah, you you learn that side of life, and then yeah, I had a huge, huge burnout in 2023.
SPEAKER_03And oh, really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so yeah, I mean, all those experiences, all those different industries and learning that you know you you're not any longer part of that, say, tribe or that community, and you've got to find another space to go into and you learn it and you learn the skills. And you know, Steve Butler talks about filling your five buckets up, and he goes, you know, if you can, if you have knowledge, you can apply it as a skill. And then if you have those two bits, uh as along with your your resources and your network, you know, if you can fill those four buckets, then your reputation will follow. But if you try and get a reputation first, it's never gonna work. And so for me, it was about gaining the knowledge, exposing myself to something completely new, different environment, um, both extreme sometimes and and volatile, that you could never have you know full control, um, and you wouldn't ever really know what's happening 24-7. Um, you know, white water raft guiding, you know, I'd be sometimes a trip leader. Um, and every day the water would be different. You know, you'd have it was dam released, so um, you'd have um different CFS, so cubic feet per second of water coming down, um, which would change the way you would uh approach certain uh rapids um and at different times of the uh season as well. You know, you'd get holes in the which, you know, a big sort of um big holes in the water, shall we say, that you just you know you should avoid because the last thing you want to do is flip your raft and then have people coming out of it. And you know, there's all sorts of safety measures you've got to have in your mind and and the knowledge and the skills that you've got to apply. Um, you know, it's people's lives at the end of the day, and it's not just your reputation, but it's the company reputation. So there's so many things that I've learned through different industries that I then applied to my project, which I did, which was growing on ocean. Um I need the little boys' room. Yeah, go for it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, go back. Uh the five buckets. Uh I have not mentioned I have not heard those mentioned before. I've not heard those mentioned. It's interesting to hear. Yeah. Uh you were talking about so you reputation. Uh so my question is so well why is why is reputation important in this regard?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um, why build towards developing that reputation?
SPEAKER_00I think m a lot of people don't always sort of look at the fact that it's not just your reputation as a person, but also the people that you represent. So for me, it's been who do I represent as a family? Uh, and how do I represent, you know, my my actions has uh an impact on my family, it has an impact on, you know, the people like my my friends and who who they're connected to. So for me, having a a good reputation and an honest reputation and an authentic reputation is so important. Um, and and it's it builds that trust in the communities that you want to inspire. And for me, the things that I've done, I want to be able to leave a legacy for the next generation and um and for for people to look up to what I've done, or maybe come and ask me, well, how did you navigate this situation or that situation? And I can give them my my experience. But if I don't have a good reputation, then you know people aren't gonna ask for that help. And I'd hate to think that you know somebody's gone through something to say that I can relate to um and not feel that they can because I've got a bad reputation. Um, so yeah, reputation is is important.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I agree. Um, I and the reason I ask is I think some some people would have been listening to you talk when you mention it, think, well, what's that why is reputation important? And you bang on. And you mentioned authentic authenticity there as well. And uh and I think the value of uh the value of authenticity now is going way up. Yeah, but uh it's because of an unfortunate situation, which I think is that there are less and less uh authentic people around, and I mean publicly facing or trying to be publicly facing, they're chasing the reputation first, yeah. And they're building they're they they're building the the uh person and lifestyle and and and the values they exude and they show outwardly are not uh necessarily who they really are. It's and you can tell this, these it's so easy to spot inauthentic people these days. It's just so easy. Look on any social media platform, right? Just have a look. Uh and um and for that reason, you know, the the value of authenticity is growing up. And I think people like yourself who it's not even about it's not even about appearing authentic, oh, and everything you represent is great and you're perfect, and I agree with everything you say. It's not even about that, it's just being it's it's being a person who when you speak, yeah, I believe that what you were saying, you believe what you were saying. You were saying it because you think it's the right thing to say, yeah, or it's uh it's important to talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, yeah, and that's the authenticity. Yeah, I would rather have someone who's authentic and does not align with anything I think, yeah, than someone who's inauthentic but seems to align with everything I think. Yeah, I want the I want the authentic enemy, yeah, as opposed to the inauthentic fake friend.
SPEAKER_00Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I get it completely.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's uh and and that's an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people, I think. You know, the and the when I think and that's something I've you know learned over the last sort of handful of years, really, yeah through having the benefit of a of a of a a network organically like appearing around me through the podcast, really, of people who are just authentic. Yeah, they're just honest fucking people. Yeah, I can ask a question, I'll get an honest answer back. Or if they say something I think they're saying that from a position of their own belief. Yeah, yeah. Um, and it's super important. It's just a shame that that doesn't exist so much anymore.
SPEAKER_00I know.
SPEAKER_04But 2023. So what happened? What happened in 2023?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean what was the crash? There was um, you know, there was uh certain things that happened in in in my life that um happened to people that uh I love and uh that I care for, and um and I I needed to come back from the yachting industry.
SPEAKER_04Oh, so you were on that. How long have you been on that for?
SPEAKER_00Um I was on the boat for four years. So different boats. Yeah, it was amazing.
SPEAKER_04Uh you're and you're away most of the year.
SPEAKER_00Um, so you can get um uh I think what is it? Uh what was it? Uh five one rotation. So five months on, one month off. Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's a pretty long rotation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it's a it's to be fair, um it it wasn't bad places when we were either um in a boatyard, um, we you know, we got weekends off, and um it was a great place to work. And then when we were on boss trips and stuff, it was again amazing. It was hard, hard work. I mean, if you're on night shifts and washing the boat down at night time and sleeping during the day, you got to miss all the fun. But um yeah, it was a it was the most amazing experience. Um, but yeah, you know, things were happening um around me and I knew that I just needed to take a step away. And uh and also, you know, being in that industry, it does tire you out. You know, you're living around people 24-7. You're in a a tiny, tiny space for a cabin. Um, and you know, you're eating with people, you're shitting with people, you're you know, I I was the only female on deck on quite a few of the boats, whereas um one of the boats, I was one of three female deckies um out of six, I think. Um, so yeah, it was um quite tiring sometimes, you know, being the only female, but also I I enjoyed it because we had such a good deck team. Every deck team that I've been with has been incredible. Like there's been moments, of course, but you need those moments to make you stronger.
SPEAKER_03Why tiring? Why more tiring when you were the only female?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think a lot of the lads uh would come to me for um just to to release their emotions or thoughts sometimes. And that was a really privileged position for me to be in and and to hold them in that space and just say, yep, it's all all good, like you're okay, kind of thing. And from a you know, uh men's mental health perspective, I think it's really important to have a female in uh a male uh team, it gives a different thought process sometimes, it softens it. Um again, it depends on what industry you're in, of course. Um I mean you might might disagree, but I think in the yachting world, um it kind of takes away some of the testosterone and um and it brings that camp camaraderie, you know. The lads will be like, Anne, do you need a hand? And I'd be like, No, I'm I'm good, lads. Or sometimes I might say, Yes, I need a hand, and it would give them that feeling of um responsibility, but also um it would sort of maybe bring up a standard that oh she can do it, then why am I moaning? Um so it was always this to and fro, it was always a really nice balance. Um, so yeah, that's why I really liked it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't I I tended not to think it was good in the military environment. I was about to say the same thing for your environment there, but I I don't know because I've never been there. And I actually think about it, it's maybe it's not that comparable. The only comparison will be oh mostly men and a woman. Uh and the reason I'll just say explain, but the reason being is that men behave differently when there's a woman around, they behave differently, especially if there's a scarcity of women. Um and it can be it can add into team dynamics, yeah, uh problems.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04An element of competition, which otherwise between the men, which otherwise wouldn't be absolutely wouldn't be there if the woman wasn't there. Yeah. Now I want to be clear. It's not the woman's fault. This is human nature's fault. You know, uh, and uh yeah, I I and I and I I've seen firsthand that happen. I also happen to be a man, yeah. So I happen to know how my brain works. I happen to know how men's brains work in general. Yeah, you know, and and uh and I think certainly in in the military, in most cases I saw women in the vicinity of or part of almost entirely male teams on you know on operations like at home. There was more there was there was uh it created an environment which I thought could have been better. Yeah. I'm not saying it created major problems. I don't think it ever did create major problems, I can't remember.
SPEAKER_00But I get where you're coming from. I mean, you know, if if you're again it depends on the situation, but I think both sides have a responsibility. And I think if you are a female that knows you're gonna be in a male-dominated environment, reputation is everything. And if you are going to ruin that by saying, for example, having it into relationships with your team, um, we always say don't screw the crew, um, then you're in a very dangerous territory. Um, and uh and yeah, it it happens in yachting, but it's how you manage it. Um, and and you know, there's a lot of mature people, there's a lot of immature people. Um, and you know, as a female, if you're in a situation where you are causing the drama, you will not stay there very long. And it gets very quickly passed around different boats if you want to work on another boat. So you have to be mentally strong and say, you know, this is this is the risk I take if I go there. And if I don't, happy days. But also as a as the guys, you know, they they a lot of the time will um see you as a sister kind of figure. Um there have been times where um they will push the boundaries but as a female that's where you have to hold them accountable and strong. And again it's about having that respect and those boundaries in place. And I made that very clear.
SPEAKER_04But would a bloke get would would that would that get passed around about a bloke as well though if they were if they were behaving in a way that wasn't conducive to supporting a positive working environment.
SPEAKER_00Very much so. It would it okay very much so yeah I mean I think anyone who wants to create drama on a boat it it you know it doesn't turn out very well for them.
SPEAKER_04So it's not it's not worth compromising the the quality of the team performance basically which is very similar to the military. You're in a confined space for a long period of time with very speci a very specific task to do which has to be done very reliably to a high a high level of uh high a high level of quality yeah yeah and uh team dynamics are like a critical influence on that absolutely I mean it's your life at the end of the day right you know you are you have each other's back and it's the and I'm not comparing military and um yachting in the same aspect at all. No, but there are comparisons to be drawn.
SPEAKER_00But yeah I mean you know you're you're you're driving operations like cranes crane operations you know uh you've got um you're lifting massively heavy tenders you know you're working with chemicals you know we're drilling we're ripping things off the boat you know we're doing all sorts of stuff and if you are not switched on because there's drama or you don't like somebody that's when people are either going to get seriously injured or killed uh and there's no excuses for it. So yeah I think um it's just a case of if you've got drama you sort it out there and then and if you can't sort it out you know you have your hierarchies you've got your lead deck and you've got your bosuns you've got your second officers you've got your chief officers you've got your captains and if you don't none of that works you know you've got um the the agency that sort of handles the boat and then if you that doesn't work you've got flag so you've got certain processes to go through and there's a lot of times that you can have that help and also there's a lot of external support as well there's a lot of good charities out there for yachtis um so yeah I think it's just a case of how you manage yourself and like you say it's reputation is everything because it's not just you you're representing it's the boat it's your team it's your family it's the community that you want to inspire and uh so and so 2023 was that brought it basically brought a stop to that it it stopped it for a while and then um sorry that was 2022 yeah it stopped it for a while then um I went back into it and then yeah that's when I had my my major sort of uh burnout was yeah 2023 May 2023 you say burnout what what what were you going through I don't mean what were the circumstances creating it but what were you going through for this yeah so I mean I I just had extreme extreme fatigue um I also um had um uh glandular fever at the time so don't woofy me um so yeah I thought that highly liked being brought on by the stress though right yeah I mean it's it's it was a horrible thing to go through um I I had never felt so tired I was sleeping and sleeping sleeping and I was you know I had um various things uh physically that were coming out in the body um and and yeah I just didn't know what was going on like so and I don't I'm not but predominantly this is like emotional stress is going on basically emotional stress physical stress is like the the physical the emotional stress is then causing like I mean you weren't yeah I'm talking about the reason that this fatigue was there yeah was because of emotional stress caused by life events yeah and also I mean I was also chasing I was doing a lot of stuff so I I was trying to do my officer of the watch tickets so um I was again trying to go through ranks it's a little bit like the cycling world you're constantly trying to get better and better and better and I've been in the industry three or four like three four years and I was like I'm still a deck hand and why am I not a lead deck hand? Why am I not a boatswain by now? And so I'd done my yacht master um to so I could be a captain of you know up to 24 foot um boats but I knew that I also needed to go and get my efficient deck hand uh certificate done which you can't you which you can do but you can't do any of your office of the watch tickets apart from a few courses until you've got those certificates and so I literally smashed all of that out on the time that I had off and then I only had a week left of my break so I went and did uh a kite surfing course so that I could become a kite surfing instructor for the yacht um and uh and I just I hit it so hard that when I came back to the boat and I was gonna I knew that I was gonna be on a three month boss trip um I just my body I had the worst symptoms of um yeah glandular fever I had tonsillitis I was just a mess and I was I was gone and uh I was no use to anyone again I was a danger to my team in the fact that if I was operating cranes if I was moving tenders I just was shit and I knew that I I needed to step away and and again you're overtraining again overtraining yeah and so and I was chasing money you know the money is such a thing and I I I get really scared about money and the finances and I always have to have enough just in case something happens to family friends whatever. I just had to point out that should be the normal train of thought by the way have enough to for emergency have enough for emergency however not have enough for the letter's iPhone but I wish I did now um but yeah I I um I was constantly chasing that money and uh and putting it to the side and yeah I just knew that the money wasn't enough to hold me in a space where I was physically mentally emotionally just gone that was not long ago no at all no three years is nothing yeah not even three years must be less than three years that is nothing you know um how what was your recovery from that because within that last three years was your row as well yeah so how was the recover what was the recovery from that how did you how did you get back on board or on board uh no pun intended yeah I know that was a great one how did you get back on board and um and what led to deciding to do the row so you need to chill out I know it's just not me I know I keep telling myself I will slow down at some point but I just love living on the edge. Wow what's the point? Give yourself rest yeah give yourself rest yeah don't go a train keep smashing it yeah I think it's the only thing that kind of keeps me going is just sort of knowing that I've got a um a focus but um so yeah once I left I had a bit of time at home to just recover and again almost come away from social media come away from everything that I knew and um and I needed to really this time like delabel everything and so I went and did a uh 10 day silent meditation course which is a Vipassana course um which one of the Dharma schools so it's a big dharma school that holds around a button where um it's in Hereford so there's a dharma school in Hereford one of the main dharma schools what dharma dharma yeah so it's uh so um the the meditation that I was learning was called Vipassana um and um it's it's a 10-day silent meditation course um which if you're thinking it's a holiday it's really really not um you can't look at anyone for 10 days you can't speak to anyone for 10 days um you know you have two meals a day uh and then a light snack um in the evening you sat in a lotus pose for at least 12 to 12 hours a day um and with breaks of course but you start at 430 in the morning and you don't finish till nine at night and the only thing that you're doing is you're sat in a dharma school and the first sort of five days you focus on on this area of the of the face you someone else's face no on your no you you can't look at anyone it's literally you are you are in your space there's 130 of you in this dharma school and you know females are one side males are the other side um but it's just you are focused on the inhale and the exhale and the sort of uh feeling and sensation they get on the upper upper lip and then um and then then you start to sort of look at how the whole body um is is sort of feeling but you don't force anything you just let everything just happen and when you're sat in a lotus pose for two hours and you want to wriggle uh and and of course you have the break after two hours but you want to you want to you know move because your hips really sore you know like when you used to be in an assembly and after like 10 minutes you just wanted to like unfold and like when you were like and it takes takes us all back now doesn't it's not anything about the military you know like in the military not assembly assembly at school yeah and you wanted to be the kid that was sat on the bench rather than the one the one that's on the floor. Yeah but yeah so you know and you sat in these poses but you just have to let the pain just come through and you just have to accept it and uh and just say yeah you sat there for 10 days and you feel like you know so many people even though you try to just completely be in your space you know when somebody opens a door you can't just go thank you very much it's just you just you just pretend that there's no one around but on the last day and the last half of the day you get to speak to people you get to and it is so like whoa it takes I've never heard of this it's amazing I've never heard of Dharma school on a so 10 days away are you sleeping um you you sleep so the females have a dorm and the guys have a dorm um and so yeah there's different dorms and so there's um just you have a little side passage with a curtain that you can close it's part of your little space and um and yeah you just you get a certain time and you go into the Dharma school and this sounds like something my friend Chris Thapper would do what I've had on the podcast before you may have heard of Chris and uh I sound I think I need to speak to him about this actually and see if he uh I'm just talking about it where it was or what okay yeah he's probably either done it or knows of it. But um yeah so I did that for sorry yeah go on so for that nine and a half days yeah you're not even speaking to anyone no so you don't speak nope for nine and a half days nope no this is something else okay no okay um which was really it was a really socially interesting um why experience because you know no one but you can feel everyone's energy like you can feel people's energy as there's you know there was a girl that would cry and you're not allowed to cry like you not not that you're not allowed to cry but um you know it it's all silence there's no you can't disturb that other person and they're gonna leave and get on with their anguish yeah I mean if my my watch went off once uh bleeped every hour so I had to turn it off but if that bleep went off that was like bad news um but anyway yeah like even a cough like you you can't really like cough um it's just those little things that you know don't disrupt somebody or a people's moment like you are on your own pretending you're on your own but are you so but what give me talking through a day like are you all together most of the time doing communal stuff uh no so four so from 4 30 till six um you have your first meditation yeah and then you have a break relax together uh this is all all all your meditations are in one room in in one massive hall dharma hall um and you're sat you know you've got a you know this this mass base um and you you sat literally next to that person you're in a line of like 10 10 10 10 and um and so yeah you 4 30 till six I think and then uh yeah and then um I think you had a small break and then it was like six till or six thirty till eight thirty and then breakfast um and then uh it was then nine till like half twelve or twelve something like that where you have you have like two hours and then a five minute break then two hours or you go two hours and then straight into your next two hours then you'd have your lunch. Of what the lotus pose uh yeah yeah so you that's all you're doing it's all you're doing all the time is you you meditate in a lotus pose yeah and sleeping yeah that's all you're doing because that's that's the only the practice is about um about observing observing the body observing what happens and you get into a state where you have a very big out of body experience and all the pain that you feel um it doesn't really matter you just acknowledge it just you're aware of it you acknowledge it but you can't change it and if you want to change it then you kind of have to be curious as to why um and and you know not going into these uh processes of of you know external thoughts and all that kind of stuff just let it pass like it's you just gotta let everything be breaking it down to reminding you what actually matters yeah to be concerned about yeah and again you you're in this you're in your whole you're being held in this space um for for like nine and a half days and no one knows anything about every uh anyone but you you feel like you know everyone and then when we you get to talk to people it doesn't matter about what people do um or about you know what their name is really it's about them that they've arrived that they're in this space and we've gone through this together and I think it's a it's a it put a thought process in my head that you know there's so many times in our life where you get introduced to somebody and you say what's your name and what do you do but if I said to you hey my passion is this or um my values are this it would be like really off putting but surely that that's that's the person right it doesn't matter what you do it doesn't define who you are um you know who you are as a person it defines who you are so yeah that practice was a real eye-opener and I met this amazing lady um who runs a somatic uh trauma therapy course and so she invited me to go out to Marrakesh so I went straight out to Marrakesh and did a 300 hours trauma informed somatic coaching course um and that was uh three weeks out in Marrakesh and that was the time where I really got to understand that the mindset movement therapy and um uh um sorry mindset movement and meditation practices were so uh important and also part of my life you know cycling was a meditation process and it was a movement process and it was a mindset process you know so and the music that you listen to I listen to music all the time when I'm training and and there's times where I have to say do not listen to music today because it's a an actual form of practice whereas my go-to is to listen to music to get me into that mindset and that meditation that flow but I I learned through that somatic trauma uh course that a lot of the stuff that I'd gone through I pushed down for so long and um and I was able to uh in a way revisit in a safe space things that I didn't want to acknowledge for a long time. And it gave me that sort of information and that knowledge and the skills to be able to be aware of it and also help others. So that's what I wanted to do. And then I sat in my room after coming back from Marrakesh for a few months thinking how am I going to put all this together and make it a business because I don't want to work for I don't want to do a nine to five job it's just not me. I want to be out in a space I want to be providing to a community I want to give people that but I don't feel like I'm still fully understanding who I am and I I also still want to give more and do something more I know I can do more than what I'm doing now. And um and so I thought well how am I going to test myself do more for what to what end do more for what? Do more towards what or did you not know that either I didn't I I knew I didn't know but I knew that I I wanted to show this resiliency piece and also I didn't know how to put my life story into a language I found it really hard to be able to find the terminology and and put it into some form of language. I knew I needed to share my story but I I found that really difficult and I didn't know how.
SPEAKER_04So I knew I needed to do something that was completely on my own and also expose myself more and reveal who I was in a really stressful hard environment and the only way I knew how to do that was to go and row an ocean I mean in a weird way I'm glad we come on to that now in a in a not in a weird way in a roundabout way if you look at if you were to look at this if you were to look at this like uh yeah yeah when you look at this retrospectively you could look at it in a different way and think and say yeah well obviously that was going to be the end point because everything you did there was the perfect the perfect all your major sort of life experiences and events positive and negative that's the natural point they would bring you to like this was this was God's plan right this is if you if you like if that's if if you're one of those this is God's plan look at it you know and when you talk when you talk me through the 10 day um the 10 day experience there I was thinking this is perfect perfect setup perfect setup for the Atlantic row and then before that it's like the yachting for four years perfect yeah perfect and then before that it's like the the GB team stuff and dealing with the the injury and the but the extreme uh physical mental strength and ability it takes to do that perfect setup perfect yeah but that you know that's not how it happened no this well literally by happenstance and you and and that's without then thinking about the mental journey which is something else in itself you know to bring you to that point to bring it to that point and when we were speaking what seven 48 72 hours ago on on the phone when we first when we first chatted and I looked I'd looked at you up before that to remind myself about what Lizard mentioned to me I think yeah uh later last year and I saw the rowing challenge and I thought people go and do that and get through it. And also the there must be a an understanding of yourself that you come to an earth that is deeper than that is it very difficult to achieve that level of understanding doing anything else. Even doing the 10 day can't speak thing, that'll take you somewhere in understanding yourself. But how long were you doing the rowing challenge for? How long was it for?
SPEAKER_00Uh uh from Grand Canary to Barbados, it was 54 days.
SPEAKER_0454 days. 54 days in your own head with all of the risk around it as well, and the physical uh exertion required and the extreme isolation, right? While trying to understand who you are and what your place is in this world is is something else, honestly. So I'm glad I'm glad we've got onto that. Um, the icebreaker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Ten hours in?
SPEAKER_0010 hours in? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04How was the first 10 hours going?
SPEAKER_00Um it was uh it was nerve-wracking. There's so do you know what there's so much uh before that happens. Just to sort of step it back a little bit. So many people want to know like what it was like on the ocean, but so many people don't look at what happened before and getting it to the start line. And I think that's where that's where it the tough part is. You know, rowing an ocean is one part, but getting it to the start line, that is that is the hardest part.
SPEAKER_04Where did the boat come from? Did you buy it off another theme? Did you were you given it, or was it built for you?
SPEAKER_00Uh no, I I bought it from uh an amazing, amazing lady called Dawn Wood, who is probably one of the best and most decorated ocean rowers in the world.
SPEAKER_03What's her name?
SPEAKER_00Uh Dawn Wood. Dawn Wood. Um and she runs uh Aurora Sea School, who is again, she provides all the sort of sea and safety um uh sort of courses for people who are looking to do an ocean row. Um but yeah, I mean when I when I thought of coming up with the idea, I mean that the the again stepping it back even more was in 2022 I was in Antigua and it was COVID during that time, and I remember we were allowed off the boat for an hour, and so I would go and do what's called the goat trail and sit at the edge of the cliff next to this tree in journal, and um I always used to look out and watch the sunset, and I always used to think, Oh, I wonder what it's like out there. And then I heard of Jasmine Harrison, who was the youngest female to be rowing solo across the Atlantic when it was Talisca, the Talasca whiskey, and um and yeah, she uh she'd come in and I was like, Well, if she can do it, I can do it, but I didn't have that strong enough why at the time. I was still chasing that money aspect, so yeah. When the dream sort of thought, I when I thought about it, I was like, right, I'm gonna do it because I've got my why and I've got my reasons and I've got the charities that I want to do it for. So January comes around and I start talking to a few ocean rowers, just getting the feelers out there and understanding it. February, I start to get the team together. Um, and then I'm like, right, now I've got to find the sponsorship. It cost me about£135,000 in the end to get it to the start line. Not me, and that this was you know fully backed by sponsors and um you know private vestors. Um, and so yeah, I um I also then had to put in and because I'm independent as well, I'm not part of an event. I I'm not scheduled to do you know um a mandatory amount of hours of training and stuff like that. Like my rules are my rules.
SPEAKER_04Oh, really? Yeah, there's no like regulatory body that says you've got to do a minimum or like some insurance clause or whatever. You can just go and do it.
SPEAKER_00I you can go and do it if you're independent. If you're part of exactly, yeah. If you're part of uh you know World Stuff is row, then there's yes, requirements. But I had a team, again, people like Duncan Roy who were part of the Ocean Roan Academy or who own Ocean Roan Academy.
SPEAKER_04Um Duncan Roy ex-Marine as well.
SPEAKER_00Um yes, when he was, yeah, Duncan Roy, he's got um a background in the industry. Um, and then um Aaron Nebone, um, who is also part of the Ocean Roan Academy. Um and then yeah, various other people, you know, you have got Simon Rowell, who um is an amazing uh weather router, you know, the Olympic sailing weather router. Um so I had an incredible team of people, and I could name so many more people as well. So uh if there is anyone watching this, then you know who you are. Um, but I think one of the biggest things about these projects is having a strong, strong team. And again, being somebody who's leading the project, I know I have to surround myself with people that have got the knowledge that can support me in that. Um, and I'm I am a student in all of this, and so I had people holding me accountable, and um, and I obviously had to hold myself accountable for a lot of stuff too, but they held me in those spaces and they reminded me sometimes of you know sometimes they were hard-hitting reminders, and I needed that. Um, but we managed to get 300 hours done in about two months once I got the boat. Um, and yeah, all the logistics, and it takes a lot of time, and it was my full-time job, and I was very lucky to be able to call it my full-time job. Um, and you know, you've got sponsor stuff to fulfill um and and loads of other bits. So, yeah, getting it to the start line was uh an incredible feeling, you know, seeing it turn up in the lorry. I had um my sister, my twin sister, who is just my rock. Um, she came out and did some filming because she's a professional photographer and videographer.
SPEAKER_05Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_00Um, so she came and filmed some stuff, and then she went home, and that was really hard to say goodbye to her. Uh, and then my coach came out and he was out there for two weeks with me and you know, supported me every minute of that process, um, all the way to the very day that you know I pushed off, and he was still on the phone every single day, as well as my other team, um, you know, on the flat phone if I needed it, um, and you know, give me the information that I needed. But yeah, I mean, the start of the day, shall we say, so this the the push-off day was minging because mingin. It was minging.
SPEAKER_02I don't know that word in a long time. Oh man, minging. That's a good Welsh word, minging.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I tell you, but go on. Um, it was absolutely gross because I had overdosed, I'd overdosed on seasickness pills, and I'd forgot that I had these scopoderm patches, which I thought were a placebo at this point. So they're like a sort of natural substance that you can uh wear on the back of your ears, and it stops you from feeling motion sickness.
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00So, but I also had the pills um that you can take, and I've been training with them. Um, and I knew that you know, being in yachting, I just know that I get seasick anyway. It's just disgusting. And all those years on the yacht, you still get seasick. Yeah, yeah. Oh wow, okay, that's unfortunate. My my time on the bridge was not fun. I thought you'd get used to it. No, um, but yeah, I um I knew that it was gonna be a thing, so I I unfortunately overdosed. And when you touch the scopoline patch and you touch your eyes, it kind of does, it's got chemical on it, and it makes your eyes go really fuzzy. And so yeah, I walked up to my um coach's apartment um in the morning just to have a sort of first briefing, and um oh, I was vomiting, I couldn't see, and I was like, is this anxiety? Like, what's going on? And I hadn't clocked on that I'd overdose at this point.
SPEAKER_04What time are you leaving?
SPEAKER_00Um 10 o'clock in the morning, and I was up his apartment by like six in the morning. I was spewing everywhere, and I was like, I need to get my shit together. Like, I've got I've got to leave the island. I thought it was nerves, but I'd never been see, I'd never been sick before. I was like literally like rolling around. I was like, what? So anyway, I went down to um Billy's bar or Billy's Cafe, um, which where we where we would do our most of our meetings um whilst we were there. So anyway, we had our breakfast there. I had my green juice, spewed that up. Then I had my my granola, and just that didn't stay down either. And I could start to see a load of people like um getting ready to watch me off. And it was like half past well, quarter past nine at this point. Go to the bathroom. This is a massive TMI, but I don't care for the this is for the females. Um, you know, my period started, and I was like, do you know? I it was just an absolute mess. Everybody everything was disgusting.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00And so um, yeah, I get down to my boat, I check everything, um, and there's just you know, loads of people around, you know, waving goodbye. My my coach had you know put these banners um by the boat over the last few days to sort of say that I'd believing at this time, and and he was just so on it with all of it, and um, and yeah, we we said goodbye, and then there was an amazing um amount of people who had boats who were always trying to sort of help and support when I was getting the boat ready. And so one of the guys um brought their sailboat uh around, and a few people had their dinghies and tenders, and so they followed me out, and my coach uh followed me out on one of the sailing boats, uh, and about a mile out they said goodbye. And then uh there was this guy um uh about an hour later, or maybe about half an hour later, there was this guy that um I just remember looking over to my left shoulder, I was like, why is he out here? It's like a tiny, tiny one man little like wooden rowing boat. And I was like, What are you doing out here? And he was just like, Oh, I'm just training, but you've left it way too late, honestly. And I'm like, late for what? And he was just like, It's terrible out there, like you've left it too late. And I was like, This is great, like to hear from somebody like you. Thank you. Um, so yeah, that was going through my mind. Um, but I know like my weather router was just on it all the time. It was just amazing, but I didn't see the message that he'd sent to me, which was Anne, once you hit the wind, just go with the wind, you'll be fine. Um, instead, my mind was if I I need to get to this certain position or what we call a waypoint, um, and that was kind of like right in the middle of Tenerife and uh Grand Canaria, so that I can really be in that wind funnel. Anyway, once you start to leave the lee of the island, it started to get a little bit messy and swirly with the wind. And then I could look over to my left shoulder again and I could see the white horses in the distance. And you know, coastal training is one thing, but ocean rowing is a whole different ball game. And yes, I'm used to seeing big waves on 91 meters, but when you're on a six-meter ocean rowing boat and it's like a pimped up paddle board, and your free boards are literally like on the water line, you it's a very different perspective.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00And so, yeah, I I start rowing and rowing and rowing, and it's just really heavy and really hard. And I knew I needed to change something, and things were just saying, Anne Z, like you've got to change now. Um, you've either got to take your dagger board out and go with the wind. Um, and everything was why are you thinking that?
SPEAKER_04Because it was getting so unstable. You were being thrown away.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I had uh beam on waves, so that's waves coming um to the to the side of you, and and I knew that every time I was going in the trough, I was lucky that the wave was either breaking before or after. Um, and so yeah, well, most of the time they were breaking after, but this one particular set of waves, I just remember it's not the one that I saw, but it was the one behind I knew was gonna flip me, and it was because I had my dagger board in, um, and because there's so much surface area in the water, and so yeah, I just knew I had to let go of the oars and just accept it. Um, and and this process was the most important process that I could have gone through, and it felt like the ocean knew I needed to go through it to set the tone for the rest of my journey. And as I let go of my oars, this is 10 hours in now. Yeah, this is 10 hours in. You know, it's starting to get a little bit dark at this point. It's not too dark, but it's like it's um it's starting to get dusk. Dusk, yeah, dusk. Um, period. It's like six o'clock at night. And uh and as I go into the water, it's fucking baltic, but I just remember just curling up into a fetus pose because my um my sliding chair can come out of its um uh rails, and I just knew that if it was gonna hit me, it was gonna hit me on the head, and uh something was gonna hit me on the head and that was gonna kill me. Um so I I curled up into a fetus uh sort of position and it was just so calm and it felt like I was back in my mother's womb. And it sounds strange, but it just that safety net as you hit the water as I went as I was underneath the water. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04They throw you upside down.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's full 360. And um and these boats are you know designed to self-right if you pack it right, and also if you don't leave any doors open, but if you do, then you're you're fucked. Um, but yeah, so I was underneath, and then I remember just unraveling and looking up, and I could see the grey of my deck, and um and you're attached to your lifeline, and your lifeline is attached to your your uh jackstay, which is uh the strong point of the boat, and um, and that's like an umbilical cord, and it just felt like you know, this was my lifeline. And I pulled on my lifeline and I got to the surface of the of the water, and you're reminded of this fucking battlefield that you're in, and the noise I can I I I all can always go through this that process, it just feels so like like it happened a minute ago because it was so distinct. Um and I remember I I I said whilst the boat was you know still on its side, I was like, come on, baby, turn. And I knew I had to let go of everything to release the weight for it to be able to self-write. So, and it's not a natural thing to let go of it, like you know that you know that there's more waves coming that are breaking, and and it's just a really scary process. And the only thing you have is to hold on to that boat, but let go of it and it it self-writes. Um, and then I pull myself up on board, there's alarms going off everywhere, everything is everywhere, everything's tied on, and I only lose my my hat and you know, um a bit of food and um some uh sun cream, which was kind of annoying. Um, I was really hoping to have that hat for all the journey because I was gonna stick all my um labels on my head. There's a whole process of anyway, gutted that I left and missed that. But anyway, um yeah, I I knew that I needed to get to the back cabin, which was where my para anchor was, which is a sea anchor, it's a big parachute that you can um uh put into the water to either stabilize the boat or to stop short.
SPEAKER_04What do you mean it's a parachute? Oh, it's an underwater kind of parachute thing. Yeah, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00But my batteries are in the aft cabin. And if most people know what an ocean rowing boat looks like, most ocean rowing boats have two cabins. Um whereas my boat only has one cabin at the front and a tiny little aft cabin um that isn't the same size as your forward cabin.
SPEAKER_03A storage.
SPEAKER_00Um it's just a storage unit, yeah. But my batteries are in there, and if your batteries get wet, then that's it, you toast, you're done.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna try and pull out a picture of it while you talk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. And um, and so yeah, uh I knew that if I was to either capsize again or um get water in there, um, that'd be me done. So I had to quickly sort out my autopilot. Um, so that's uh an arm that goes left and right, and you can set it to a certain position so that it holds you on course. It's not doesn't propel you in any way, it just helps you with your steering. And so, and it steers the rudder. So I knew I had to center that off and um and get all that bit sorted. And then I had to chuck the para anchor out, and you've got you know a 95 meter, a 70 metre, a six meter, and a 10-meter line all to juggle and not get tangled.
SPEAKER_04Um tiny cabin at the other end. Yeah, it doesn't look like a cabin.
SPEAKER_00It's actually, yeah, no, it's not, it's yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, um but yeah, it's uh it's pretty small. But um yeah, you've got to, you know, there's a process in with in in the way you release your uh power anchor, and uh so I had to put that out, and that gave me enough time to like stabilize the boat, and then I opened the Ford cabin, everything was everywhere, but again, I had a tracker system um that allowed me to flick a switch and that alerted my three core team members. Um so uh my my safety team, um, my tracking team, and my weather router. And that sent an email to them, and two of them were in a pub in London at this point. Um and uh and one of them was with family, but again, they were straight on it. As soon as that alarm came through, they um, you know, they knew that there was a situation. So it gave me enough time to set up my satellite systems and uh my sat phone. I gave uh my safety team a call, and uh, and they were just like, you know, Anna Z, you've got two options, you got or three options. You either put yourself on power anchor, uh, give yourself enough time to get yourself uh ready to go and and crack on. Um you can either uh call it uh if you want to. Um or what was the third one? I think that was only two actually. Um there was a third one, but anyway, I decided to to there was no way I was coming back. I was either gonna die out there or um like make it.
SPEAKER_04And so you were thinking that seriously, that was the attitude for you.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. There was no there was no other way I was coming back. There was no why that commitment? Shame, reputation. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also like so many people had put so much of their time and effort, the money that was spent, you know, and the the causes that I was doing it for. If I'd backed out of that because what I flipped my boat, and you know, there was nothing wrong with me. It would have just been like embarrassing. Yeah. So I knew that there was just you've got no excuse, Anna Z, but to go.
SPEAKER_04And empathy can be extremely strong motivators.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but do you know what? I had um I had uh my or the fear of shame, I should say. Fear of shame, yeah, definitely, yeah. There was a thing that I um lived by, and if you look at my boat, it's got feed and feed the fire. And I had it on the um on my my food uh uh storage units as well, and it had F-E-E-D, and it's um it's be fast, be efficient, be empathetic, and be dynamic or decisive. Sorry, and um, and that was my focus every day. Am I being fast enough? Am I being empathetic? Am I being efficient? Am I being decisive? And those were always my sort of key go-to's. Um, but yeah, and I knew that you know that process was a state of flow process. That was intuition, that was visualization practices that I'd gone through every single day when I was training. You don't you don't practice a capsize? Um, so that process was new and and it just came like that. And yes, it was really scary.
SPEAKER_04How quick did it happen from the moment sorry, how quick did it happen from the moment you realised that wave is almost certainly going to tip me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04To you being back in the boat. Uh oh no, it's tipping you. Like, how quick did that happen?
SPEAKER_00I was like, I don't know, maybe like five five seconds. There's like one or two that wave had gone three.
SPEAKER_04Like a four. That is a lifetime. That is a lifetime. Yeah. Because you knew it was coming.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Five seconds, knowing something like that's coming, even just five seconds before, that is a lifetime. Yeah. Right? It's not like split second, you didn't know it happened, and all of a sudden you're in the water and what the heck happened, you know it's coming. Because it gives time for the fear to hit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very much so. Okay. Very much so. And you you know, you have all these. Oh my god, your your whole life flashes before your your eyes, kind of like every scenario within a smillisecond goes through your head. But that was the sense of calm. And there was, and again, the reason why I go into these environments is because it really does reveal who you are. You cannot get more honest with yourself, and the regrets that you may have, the uh things that you wish you'd have done, all come to light in that moment. And and I think the most uh exposes you, it really does. And I I heard this quote the other day from Will Smith uh from his mentor, and he says, The most important things lie on the edge of the world, and it's so true. Like when you when you're dancing on the edge, you cannot get more real with who you are as a person, and I knew that you know that was gonna be a really important process to go through and keep going. Through, and that was one of many lessons that I'd learnt out there. Um, but again, my team, because they were on it, because I knew they had my back, they were gave me all the information. I knew I could put myself back in the cabin, get my stuff together, get back out, pull the power anchor in, even though I was still very seasick, um, very sort of disillusioned. Um, I knew that I could get the process done and I rode and rode and rode for three days, and I don't remember it. I remember passing out on deck and just like waking up and I could see like the orange, the last orange bits of um Grand Canaria, and then I would row and row and row, and then I just like kind of pass out, and then I'd kind of get up again, and I'd be like, Oh, now there's no land, and then like just for three days, it was just disgusting, and I'm so glad that there was no one asked to see that. My one of the guys who I was on the um sat phone to who was just like I'd never heard someone vomit down the phone so hard. Oh god, so yeah, good reputation for that one. Right.
SPEAKER_04Pause there. I need to tie that again.
SPEAKER_00I'm so sorry, this is probably gonna take too long.
SPEAKER_04No, no, it's not your fault, my fault, it's my uh it's my liquid management.
SPEAKER_00No, so um give me a second.
SPEAKER_04We are back. Hello, hello. Um, okay, I need to ask you some questions. Yeah from the from the the perspective the athlete uh from on the athlete side of things, right? On that on that rowing boat, yeah. Uh you're on your own. How many miles is it to cover?
SPEAKER_00Um around about we say 3,000, but I think I did about yeah, it's like 2000.
SPEAKER_04How are you how are you managing your output through the throughout the the day, assuming you only row during the day? Um or well, how are you managing your output? How are you not fatiguing yourself? How are you fueling yourself? How are you organizing rest? Please explain it to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we have um, you know, my coach is again incredible with how he sets his uh ocean rowers up. Um and you know, we have standards and routines that we go through that you know we choose and and is shaped by us, and we work together on that. Um, and so yeah, my day started at five in the morning and I would do three hours on, one hour off. Um, but again, it very much depends on um the weather, and you have to be really adaptable to any situation that you're you're kind of given. Five in the morning, five in the morning, three hours on, one hour off, and you finish at midnight. So you're 15 hours a day uh you know rowing.
SPEAKER_04Um but how are you so but that's three hours on?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You're just sitting in a chair, yeah, and you're just rowing for three hours.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And you know, there there'll be times where you might have to stop because you know the white weight's not feeling great on the boat, and you you know, you you're thinking all the time, and so people think, God, you must have had so much time to think. You don't have much time to think, you're constantly focused on every again, marginal gains. Where can I improve here? And again, my thought process that that athlete process was I'm trying to go for a world record um, you know, speed time here. Um, you know, the world record was set by uh Victoria Evans on on my boat.
SPEAKER_02How many days?
SPEAKER_00Uh 40 days, and um, I was just like, you know, I really would like to have a chance at, you know, having a go at this. There's no excuses, it's the same boat, um, but you know, it's a different year. Um, and Victoria was just the most uh again, fantastic athlete, and and she showcased what it takes as a female to to push limits. Um and I I wanted to do the same, but again, I had um I had a North Atlantic storm and a tropical storm from the south on various points of my row. But the first couple of weeks, I could not get out of my head that I was not doing a certain mileage a day, like I wasn't achieving that. And my team again held me accountable in St. Anna Z. Like, you're out in the ocean, don't focus on how many miles you're taking off because you're not going to enjoy it, just focus on the controllables, and those are the things that we've put out in your standards and your routines, so everything else is out of your control, it's only the things that we know that you can control, just focus on that. And if you can turn up every day on the oars and and give 100%, that's all we're asking for, but I wanted more, and it got to a point where I I had to have a wake-up call, and I got that wake-up call, um, and and it hit me, and from that point onwards, I didn't give a shit about the what what day I turned up at in Barbados. It was just about being in that moment.
SPEAKER_03What was when was the wake-up call?
SPEAKER_00It's about um, I think it was around about day 14 or 15, maybe, I'm not too sure exactly. Um, but yeah, I just remember having a uh a phone call with my coach, and um and and again, he he he held me accountable and said honestly, look, you are in this position, and in regards to you are in a place where you are privileged to do this. So, you know, what is it that you want? And I had to really sit with that, and it it just I knew that the world record was out of my hands at that point, and and I was privileged to be out there, and there was so much more that I was missing because I was so focused on one goal, and you know, that end goal, the end goals that we always create in our lives, you know, is that actually reaching our full potential, or is that just uh us trying to reach a target? And it's great to have goals, but what if you can reach more than that? And so I I I let go of the idea of whatever I was trying to achieve, this expectation. And it one of the many lessons that the ocean teaches you is to not have expectation because you can't expect something that you are not in control of, whether that be weather, whether that be ocean conditions, whether that be something that happened on your boat, whether it's a Marlin strike, whether it's electrical issues, because you've got to wear a lot of hats when you're out on the ocean, you know, not as a as a solo, especially. You know, I didn't have um you know personalities to deal with, although I did. Um, you know, but you have to be a captain or a skipper, you have to, you know, be uh a plumber, an electrician, uh a welfare officer, a nutritionist. Um, you've got all these things to think about that you know you can't focus on anything else apart from being in the moment. And I had to I had to shake myself up. And I remember the the Sahara dust from the Sahara Desert had created a a lot of uh like overcast um cloud, and uh it was just really dull in the sky. There was it looked like a cloud, but it wasn't, it was just dust. And um, so that really affected the power issues on the on the boat. I mean, uh, my power issues, I didn't really have too many, but you just can't create as much solar power to uh charge your batteries. And um yeah, I just remember one night, it was the first time, I think it was that was day nine, where I had a sense of calm and that it the the water went really silky, and I just felt like I could breathe. And I remember taking a video and it's on my social media and just saying, like, if you can, if you want to do something, you know like you can achieve it. And it was just the most beautiful sunset, the whole sky was orange, and then there was like 50 plus dolphins that came and just sort of sat with me for 24 hours, and that following morning all around you. Oh, yeah, they were everywhere, and they stayed with me all night, and then I remember going to sleep, and it was the first time I'd overslept from my alarm. Um, I think by like 10 minutes, and I could hear the clicking noise in um underneath because you you your boat is so thin of fiber, and not fibreglass, um uh yeah, fiberglass. And it's you know, a thin piece of fiberglass between you and five kilometres of ocean. And I just remember hearing the clicking noises.
SPEAKER_04How was the depth you're at? 5k.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, it's about three miles, three miles deep. Um flipping away.
SPEAKER_04And you could you hear the dolphins talking.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you could just hear the clicks, click, click, click, click, click. And um, it was just oh, it was amazing. And it was like they knew, like Anna Z, wake up! Wake up. Oh my god, what an experience. Yeah, it really was. And it was things like that, that you just it made you realise where you were, and and from sort of that point where I dropped all the expectation and really focused on every minute, every hour, every day, was it just changed my whole perspective of my I learned so much out there. There was times like where you would look for again how you would gain speed, and I learned that there was different times of the day that the ocean would change, and it wasn't like predictable, but it also I was looking for those patterns, and like in the morning after breakfast, it was just turned like really big, but really grey and silky, and it wasn't that breaky, it was just nice. I mean, I say nice, I had a four-meter swell from the north. Um, so it wasn't an and it wasn't going in my direction, but it was you know, nice and silky, it was big, and it was just that's what you want. You want big um conditions to sort of give you that speed. Um, and and then you know, during the day, it would then start to get a bit messy, and what I call uh unlubricated mashed potato, it was just starting to get frustrating, and then in the afternoon it would just the wind would really start to come up into play, and oh, it just got really frustrating at that point, and you just knew you had to keep going and keep going, and there would be moments where it'd die down and then it would pick back up, and the bit the times where you knew it was going to be fast was you'd look for a specific surface type, and I can only explain like this is between Granny's wrinkly elbow and a perfectly hoovered uh carpet with a bit of shaken back on top, that's the surface type you were looking for. And and I knew that if I wasn't doing you know four knots and I was doing one knot, there was a situation on my boat that was slowing me down. And a lot of the time it was because I had barnacles at the bottom of my boat, so yeah. You'd have to get out and scrub the bottom of the hull and make sure that was nice and clean, and it's amazing just how much friction they cause. Um, so yeah, it was just things like that. You got to learn every single day.
SPEAKER_04Hearing dolphins clicking through the hull, uh like you know, no one else will have experienced that the way you did. Yeah, and even I mean, the closest thing to that would be the Talisco Whiskey Challenge, where people did experience that, and that's different. Yeah, there's loads of you know you're not on your own in the ocean, you know there's lots of boats around, yeah. Other boats doing the same thing, it kind of gives it a different feel. At that point, you're all doing it, it's nothing for thousands of square miles. Yeah, it's just you realizing the world's a big old place.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, world's a big old place, big, it's absolutely big, yeah, and you're roaring boats very very small part in that ocean, yeah. You know, that is uh it's unbelievable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the the wildlife encounters just kept going. You know, you had I had a marlin, um, and marlins typically like to hunt tuna, and the tuna would hide underneath your boat, and so you mentioned a marlin strike earlier, actually.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so the tuna higher than underneath, the marlin try and skewer them, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But they skewer the boat a lot of the time. Thank god. Did you get skewered? No, thank god. No, no, there's a technique that you can do to kind of scare them off, and so you can turn your water maker on. Um, and it typically you know it shoots to make the tuna run off. Yeah, to make yeah, the tuna run off and the marlin go. But and also there was a bird that followed me in front, and it was uh it was just a uh um it was a bird that was no bigger than this, but um it had like a a white ring around it. Dinner plate and yeah for people listening. Yeah, for for people listening at this.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's actually a side plate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd say a side plate, yeah. And it was it was like a had a white ring around its wings and it's like brown, and it just darts through the ocean, and and I this this bird was called Michael, um, because um, you know, there was a guy that had had the boat before me, and um I never met Michael, but Michael had uh was doing the same journey as me the year before. Uh unfortunately he passed away on the boat, and so the boat was recovered back to the UK. Um, and uh and and so I bought it and then I did it up, and um, you know, we made the uh changes, some of the changes on the boat.
SPEAKER_03You had his boat? Oh wow, okay.
SPEAKER_00And even though I'd never met Michael, uh I had his um little sovereign and um and it was a little R and L I little wooden man. So um I had a few people that had had the boat and plus his um little bits, and uh, and you know, that was we were me and Michael were gonna finish this this row together, and you know, the bird that was kind of that's this very spiritual element for me was Michael like every every morning the bird would come, and every evening the bird would come on the sunset and the sunrise, and it was it you could just feel it. And when you when you saw the boat, uh when you saw the bird just dart round and it would sometimes just sit hover by the boat, and on the days where it was like unlubricated mashed potato, I'd get really angry with it because it would just run its feet along the surface of the water, make it look so easy, and I would get so frustrated with it. But at the same time, he just you know, he he just it you I learned from it when it was really silky evenings or really silky mornings, and it was just darting through, it made me remember Anna, you just relax, don't fight it, just glide, just enjoy the moment, and you start to learn your environment. You know, there was uh another example is there was um a ripple that would go from either right to left or left to right, depending on where the moon was. And um this ripple would it typically happen just before um the where the moon would rise. So when the we had a moon rise, um which was more when I got towards the Caribbean side, but when the moon would rise, this ripple would come through in the direction of the moon and it would mess up like the the rhythm of um the sets in waves, and uh it would be really frustrating because you couldn't get like a rhythm at all. So I would have to, and typically the wind wouldn't be on my side either. But what I would do is I would you know have my breakfast and wait for the sun to rise, and then as I would wait for the sun to rise, you'd see the ripple would disappear and the wind would start to change, and you look at your wind vane, and it would go from like um from that direction, um, you know, 45 degree or 30 degree direction, then it would just come straight like straight behind you, and you were had you had the wind with you, and if you were lucky, you had the waves and the swell with you, and it just oh you just had to have that patience and just trust that it was all gonna come into play.
SPEAKER_04That is, you know, what you're describing there. I was just thinking that it that is the almost a very different definition of being like at one with nature. Yeah, you are lit, you you you like an acknowledgement, you're at its you you're at its mercy, yeah. But you're also totally understanding it. You are totally understanding the environment you're in, and the entire environment you're in is pure nature. There's nothing obviously the boat you're in, but you but the the ocean, the wind, the moon, the sun, the dolphins, Michael, you know, is just incre I I was making the hairs at the back of my neck neck stand up when you were talking through it because I think that is like that's to me, that is like the purest form of existence we can have, you know, in terms of nothing unnecessarily bothering you. Everything that is influencing you and impacting you right now, everything that is impacting your senses is relevant. Actually relevant. Yeah, actually relevant. Yeah. And the more you can tune into it, the longer time you have to tune into it, the better you become in it, and then it just becomes you just you you naturally fall into cycles that that are good for what you're trying to achieve.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04However, I you underplayed, I think, earlier on when you were talking about um you know that hard lesson that your coach had to have to call with you, or you had to call with your coach and you realised that like the you know, you weren't gonna be able to achieve the world record. I think you underplayed the significance of that myself, or on or you describe the way you described it anyway, because uh it sounds to me like up to that point, the whole reason you were doing this, almost the entire reason for for motivating you to keep going on that was the world record. Was the world record and for for the the realization of thinking that you're not gonna and before you got onto it, obviously there's other motivations, but the realisation that you're gonna achieve the real world record, uh 99.9% of the people there, everyone would have a then a disc a decision in their head, what they'll do here, what's the point? Yeah, what's the point, what they do? Do I quit or carry on? What do I do? I think 99.9% of people there would have uh either given up there and then or been so unmotivated that later on they would have given up, or it would have taken him so long to finish, or they would have not been focused and had an accident, or what something happened where they just don't achieve the impact. Yeah, because they wouldn't be able to reconcile that once again every single reason the purpose that you are there doing that thing has gone. Yeah, you can't do it now. I think you totally under so I think you understand this while I'm explaining it. Yeah, I do. And it led me to thinking that is that so is this boat trip and that is that would is that the biggest thing, the biggest thing that has tri has made the biggest change to you in your life and perception and understanding of things, where you are now or not?
SPEAKER_00No, I think um I think in a way it has shaped how I look at goals and how um I look at um that safety, security, and risk element and what I can control and what I can't control.
SPEAKER_04Um but you said earlier safety is an illusion. What did you mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think people are constantly looking for safety in people, in environment, but actually I don't think you can ever have pure safety. I mean, you can have you can have spaces where it's safe, but I think if you're constantly searching for elements of safety, then there's that lack of trust in who you are and and yourself. So yeah, I think there's definitely a sort of a significance or a sort of a separation between there is a safety there for you in either an environment that you've you know is safe, um, but it's that search for constant safety. You'll never you you'll constantly be chasing for it, but you'll never find it purely ever, I don't think.
SPEAKER_04No, I agree. But so you you so yeah, okay. So back to it, you I that is not the most significant change point for you then.
SPEAKER_00Um I think all of it, all of it is I can't put my um I can't put it down to one learning experience because you don't go into these expeditions knowing that it's just been from one significant thing. There is so many significant things that you can take away from going into an extreme environment and dancing with that edge. I think when I look at the whole process, I break it down into sort of three sections. And for me, the first part is the separation phase, which is pushing off from or knowing that you're on land and you're gonna step off. Most people get scared of that separation stage. That's where the fear comes in, and they don't want to because it's safety to. Stay on land rather than step into this unknown. And so it takes courage. And I think you know, if I look at courage, courage is like striking a match. You can strike a match, but how long does it last? Not very long. So you need something else to be able to allow you to step off and in a way go into this next sustainable. Yeah. And go into this next phase. Um, and and it this is all a change cycle. We're constantly going through change. You know, we're if we look at it from a molecular level, you know, we're energy in motion, we're emotion, we're um, you know, we're constantly changing and in our in our skin, in our emotions, everything chemically, constantly. So we're constantly moving. But a lot of people feel safe when they are on sturdy land and when um, you know, they're in these contingency plans and they can have control of that. But when you are either forced into an unknown or you put yourself into an unknown, you go into a space of liminal space or a threshold. That threshold, there is no um society in that, there is no structure, and those patterns that you knew when you were still on land, they're not gonna serve you when you go into this space of the structureless space with no society. Chaos. Yeah, chaos, right? So, and again, you can't have expectation in this. You have to be learning in your environment, you have to be switched on, and you have to allow intuition to come through and really trust in that as well. Um, and so yeah, for me, that 54 days was being in a space of liminal space. And one of my anchors every single day to be able to row every single day, because I was rowing in the dark and and facing big waves, and I was in the sunlight facing big waves, and sometimes absolutely no waves, which was only I think two days out of uh the 54, which was actually even worse because when you don't have waves and if you don't have a swell or if it's just pancake flat, you are going hardly anywhere. So um, anyway, yeah, when when you wake up in the morning and sleep deprivation is the biggest killer ever, um, you know, you you are immediately aware of the fact that you are in the middle of nowhere, and you know, it sounds like there's bombs and uh and shots being fired all around you. It's so loud. And so you you're like, okay, I I you open the door a little bit, you go, yep, I'm still in the middle of the ocean, and you close the door, and I I would get my wet clothes on and um I'd check my charts, I'd check everything was all good. Um, and I would my first three hours would just get on the oars and row. Uh, and I'd still have maybe some of my snack pack from the night before to just have a bit of motivation. But I'd always put three um baby wipes up my sleeve, and one of the first things I'd do is open the door, click myself on, shut the door, and get my bucket. And we do what's called a bucket and chucket situation. And a lot of the school kids always ask me, Where do you go for a poo? Um, and so anyway, that would be my first job, you know, as my welfare officer, I would say, Annestly, what's your first job? On the bucket, please. And so um, I'd sit on the bucket, and this was where my foundation always began, my anchor systems always began, because that was a space where you you've just woke up and you are con you are automatically reminded of the environment that you're in, and you can look up at the stars and and it's unbelievable the the stars that you see and this vast ocean. And when it's you know, the moon uh lights up the horizon, it's just like incredible, and you sometimes can feel like on a natural high on a trip, but you have this sense of awe, and this sense of awe overrides any fear that you have. And um I remember uh hearing somebody say that you you have to split the sense of awe into two sections. One of them is this conceptual vastness. Uh, what are you gonna take away from this environment and then this perceptual vastness, this wonder, this exploration, this huge space. And when you put them together, it's a need for accommodation. And and it's how am I going to take all this and put it into this last phase of the change cycle, which is this reintegration phase. And this is where it's really overlooked. And a lot of the time we don't have the support network. You know, military has the support network, maybe the procycling doesn't, where you have to reintegrate into a new space, but also you have to reintegrate into society, into just into structure, and you've also got to bring some of the patterns that you you once knew back into your life, along with some of the things that you've now learned, and you create a new baseline uh of resilience when you go into this reintegration phase. But so many people want to rush through that reintegration phase, and that is really, really hard because that's where you um you have this huge dip. And a lot of like people from the expedition world will have uh these post-expedition blues, um, and again, lack of purpose, uh lack of um, you know, busyness in your life, it hits you. And I knew that was going to be a thing for me when I finished rowing the across the Atlantic, so I kept myself really, really busy. Um, you know, I worked in schools, I was doing talks all over the UK, and um and yeah, I was also trying to set up my business and delivering what I'd learned. But the whole time I was on the ocean, I didn't have time to think about certain things, I just had to carry on with being in the moment, but I had had to make enough time to reflect on what I'd learnt and how I was going to put it into a language. Um, and so for me, um, I needed to have that support network, um, and that was really important. I think it's important for people to realize that when you go through big changes and even small changes, you have to know that the only thing you can control in that liminal space is your internal systems. But when you but when you're also in that environment, you have to have that external support, and the external support is really important to have in that reintegration phase as well. And I had that, and um, you know, I had um the uh Leon Lloyd and his his company um and the best team, which is um the bespoke elite uh speaking training program, um, allow me to formulate a language to be able to tell my story. So, and that's where we're at today.
SPEAKER_04You speak like it I'm bliss, it's it's a real pleasure listen to you, it really is. And because um of everything you've done, you've experienced what you've done. I mean, I I hope you've I hope in your head head somewhere you think I've literally done it all. Like you've done to me, you just of all the the possible like extreme experiences and lessons, big, big, big lessons that a lot of people take a lot of people don't ever learn. And a lot of people don't learn for a long time. Yeah, often could when it would have been much more beneficial earlier on, and it can always be a lesson, can always be more beneficial earlier on, like like how about before the fucking problem happened? Um but you've you know you've learned and achieved and achieved so much, but you're able to articulate it so well, and you have a level of self-understanding and like this uh this this ref uh like an ability to like reflect on what you experienced and again articulate that what you've learned about it so that so that I can listen to it and go, huh. You know, I'm listening to you speak and go, yeah, I'm I'm understanding more things about myself and just about the human experience, right? It's it's a real pleasure to listen to you. I mean that honestly, it's been a it's been I've really enjoyed this chat.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Um and so well, well done with it all. I could also relax.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna try to now.
SPEAKER_04So before we wrap it up, the the new um the business is what?
SPEAKER_00Uh so now yeah, yeah. So my business. Yeah, so the business, um, I can sort of say that you know, now I deliver a framework that I feel has worked for me. Um again, I'm still very much a student in this space of being able to articulate it. And you know, it's going to adapt and evolve, but for me, it's my value, and I think everyone has one value. We always talk about values, but really, what is our core core value? What is that thing that constantly allows us to move through adversity and challenge? And for me, that's this uh this fortitude piece, having fortitude in adversity and challenge. Um, and again, I look at courage in the separation phase, fortitude is in this liminal space, and resilience is the sort of end result of this new baseline of resilience, and it's a mixture of all these things that we've learned. And so for me, now I I have a system where I look at the solitude, magnitude, and attitude of any given challenge, and I break that down into certain aspects. So the solitude piece is looking at the um the clarity and into um introspection and our um uh intuition piece, and again, it looks at the uh visualizations that I did and um bringing in the sort of somatic practices to be able to be our own guru rather than externally looking for that validation and um you know how can we trust ourselves and also have that external support, and then the sort of magnitude is you know, how can we acknowledge the full picture, but then how do we break that down into these marginal gains, these small sections that most people overlook? Um, because it's the small pieces that make the biggest difference. You know, one tiny little touch of the water can make a big ripple further on down the line. And I think you've got to be able to take the small things seriously, and it's that's sort of been my ethos through the cycling world when you know the the millimeter of change in in my saddle or whatever was an important part of my performance. Um, and and then the attitude piece is allowing awe to override fear, but we need fear, fear is so important to feel, and I don't think enough of us feel fear, we fear fear. Do you know what I mean? So instead we have trying to stay in the comfort zone, right? Yeah, but also as well, like where is where is your place of being uncomfortable? And when you're in a place of being uncomfortable, you know, ask yourself why, because we always if we can get to that superficial surface level of the why, that's a great start. But and again, this is where my deep thinking comes in, uh, and it can be to my detriment sometimes, but if I can't ask myself why five times, then I'm not at my core why, and I'm not gonna do something until I get to that core why. Because when it comes to facing a life or death situation, that's when the why comes out. And if it's a why that doesn't, you know, sit with you, then it's a waste of your life. Whereas I know that my why every time I do something, or if I'm gonna, you know, um risk my life in a way that for me doesn't feel like a risk, it's a risk worth taking and it's a managed risk because I've got the support networks, I've got the knowledge, I've got the experience, but the things that I can't control that's out of my hands, and I accept that, then you know that is that's a place where I feel I can be comfortable and be able to, in a way, research and have that curiosity for that human capacity aspect. I look at the the row as in you can be 80% ready for any ocean row, but that 20% zone is where you learn the 80% capacity, and it's that 80-20 switch. So I think if you if you're committed enough to understand your why and step into that 20% zone of uncertainty, you can come out the other end knowing that your new baseline is so much higher than where you used to be.
SPEAKER_04I agree on everything you just said. The whys are super important. Yeah, I totally agree. And the the whys and are important every in every aspect of life at the at the moment for ev for a lot of people. Uh and just stepping off topic slightly, I I say that because I think there are so many like the majority of people these days, I think, when it comes like, for example, on on their opinions on politics or so so aspects of society are unhappy with or or pick pick a pick a thing. They if they would not be able to uh explain to you why they think what they think. A lot of the time they just they just think what they think because they think it's expected of them or because it's part of the in-group think. They think they'll be a bit of shame if they don't think that or do something or want to do something or have these ambitions or you know, I want to be I want to get promoted.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Why?
SPEAKER_04I want to get I want to this is the job I want to do. This is what why? Yeah, you know, this is the industry I want to go into.
SPEAKER_03Why?
SPEAKER_04You know, uh this is the this is how much money I want to earn. Why?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Why why even have a figure on that? Yeah, you know, yeah that I I I hate this person, this political figure, or this party, or this news article. Why? You can't explain it. Yeah, we can't explain it. And I think that's that's what you meant with the with the whys. If you can't if you can't answer a why about something you're doing, a challenge, yeah, an aspiration, an ambition, then why is it? Why is it a thing for you? Yeah, well, and it's uh it's been a you know a an important uh learning for myself over the last five, six years. Yeah, there were so many things I could not I couldn't answer why. Yeah, why I I wanted or did these things. You go, and and and I think, well, that's a waste of fucking energy then. Or I need to work harder to try and understand it because it means so much to me. Yes, I'm so emotionally invested in this. Absolutely. Yeah, I cannot explain why.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and you know what? A lot of people try and explain their why, and this is where I always say that my ocean row was like stepping into an unspeakable world, um, because sometimes when you experience certain things, it's okay not to have a language for it. The language is silent a lot of the time, and it's through action rather than through words, and I think sometimes you for you to role model and and be able to formulate that language, you have to experience it first. So many people don't want to experience it, they want to just talk about it. That's the wrong way. You have to experience it, you have to be on the edge, you have to see both sides, and you have to go deep. And if you aren't deep in your understanding that why to get to your why, then it's pointless. Like I I think, anyway.
SPEAKER_04Anastly Park, it's been an absolute pleasure. Is there anything we have not covered that you wanted to cover or would like to cover?
SPEAKER_00No, I think you had a few answers, a few questions. Okay, yeah, we did. Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_04Okay, but before we do that, how do people follow you? What's your website?
SPEAKER_00Um, it's uh Annesley Park, so www.anasleypark.com. Uh, and I am Anasley Park on social media on most platforms as well.
SPEAKER_04Excellente. Okay. The question, I totally forgot. Well reminder, you're doing my job for me. All right. Okay, let's have a look. Let's have a look at what we've got from the patrons. Uh look at the ones we didn't cover. Okay, rowing. This is from David. Rowing solo across the Atlantic means long stretches with nothing but your own thoughts. As you discussed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh, what did you learn about yourself in that silence?
SPEAKER_00Um, oh wow. Um what did I learn about myself in that silence? To be honest, it wasn't that silent because it was always very loud. Um, but I think in the in the solitude piece of it all, um, it was just to trust, trust who I am as a person, and that, you know, labels don't define me. Um, and that I'm constantly changing, and it's okay to change. And, you know, I don't need to chase any validation anymore from anyone. And I'm still working on that. I'm still working on the fact that you know, I need to set boundaries in in in certain areas of my life, and um, it's okay to say no to things.
SPEAKER_04Good advice. Uh okay, next question from David. So uh you grew up in close proximity to military environments. Do you think that that shaped your appetite for challenge and uncertainty?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think I'm very lucky, very, very lucky to um, you know, grow up in military family and um and have those around me that um are also from the military. Um, I think you can learn so much from people that have also been in extreme environments, volatile environments, and you know, had that physical, mental, and emotional uh fortitude to uh get through anything and also the teamwork, the camaraderie, everything that you go through. And you know, I'm talking to you here that you've been through. You know, I'm sure that with your children, you hope that it's you know passed down to them as well in that sort of ethos that and those values and those principles that you all stick to. Um, it's definitely shaped who I am for sure.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Uh two left. You have chased a linked sport, adventure, and unconventional careers. I don't know if chase is the right word, but that's how it's worded. Uh what is the thread that you think connects all those chapters for your I think it's this freedom.
SPEAKER_00Freedom. I I don't chase finance uh anymore. You know, I did and I knew that that wasn't a thing. I've chased so many different things that really are not um they're not important. Yes, they're important to you know live by, but I think having food, shelter, and companionship are the three biggest things to survive.
SPEAKER_01What do you say? Food, health, companionship.
SPEAKER_00Food, uh food, shelter, and companionship. Um and and when you are either limited to that or have all of that, and I've been on both extremes, you get to see the both pros and cons to it. And I just I like the simplicity in life. And living on a six-meter ocean rowing boat allowed me to really understand that being living in a simple life is much easier.
SPEAKER_04Okay, last question. Uh, for for anyone who's listening, uh, who this is from David again, for anyone who's listening who feels stuck after a setback, injury, failure, or loss, what would you say about resilience that isn't just a motivational cliche?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I would say, first of all, know that if you don't have your external support, it's important to be able to get that external support from the people that you feel safe with. Uh and I know we've touched on that safety element, but those people you feel you can be vulnerable with, I think that's really important. But also acknowledging it and sitting with it and knowing that it will pass, but time should not be a thing. You shouldn't put time on, oh, I I need to get through this struggle um quickly. I think so many people are rushing through life now and don't give themselves that space. You know, I talk to CEOs and leaders who feel isolated and feel um, you know, that they they don't have a break and they burn out. And it's because they've not sat with those feelings, the the physical element, the emotional element, the environmental, the cultural, uh, the social element. There's so much to it. Again, I talk about these layers, sit in all of it whilst knowing you have that external support. Give yourself that space and time. And when you feel ready. Then you can start going through that process. And again, whether it's with a professional or whether it's with people that you you know have your back, go through those processes of you know, acknowledging it, whether it's writing it down, whether it's going through um talk therapy, whether it's uh movement therapy, whether it's meditation, there's so many elements to be able to start to acknowledge it. But it's it's knowing the tools and how to get through that. And you know, that reintegration phase, it takes time. It's still taken me time to reintegrate into life, you know, post-row. Um, and when I have that aha moment, then maybe I've kind of come full circle. Um, but until that point, I'm still sitting in it, I'm still evolving, I'm still going. And we always go through many struggles and big struggles. Um, so I know that's a long-winded answer, but I suppose sit in the solitude, understand and face the magnitude, and have the attitude to be able to face it.
SPEAKER_04It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for your time. Um, and uh you are welcome back in any time in the future, whenever you want to come back in the room to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Uh, and good luck with everything you're doing, whatever the next challenge may be, if it's the next challenge, and with the business, of course.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I've had an amazing time with you today. Glad you did. I understand. Thank you.
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