H-Hour
A former sniper interviewing fascinating human beings.
H-Hour
“No one should be defined by disability”. former Commando Lee “Frank” Spencer
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Join the H-Hour Patron Community at patreon.com/hkpodcasts ***** In this H-Hour Icebreaker, Lee 'Frank' Spencer joins Hugh to discuss his journey through military service and his remarkable achievements post-injury. Lee talks about the mental and emotional challenges he faced, including his experience rowing solo across the Atlantic despite losing a leg. The conversation covers essential topics like resilience, the Royal Marines mentality, and the importance of being present in the moment. The discussion is enriched with personal anecdotes and insights into coping mechanisms, providing a deep dive into Lee's endurance and optimistic outlook. https://leespencer.co.uk/This episode is sponsored by Sin Eaters Guild - sineatersguild.co.uk
Welcome back, Hey Chour viewers, listeners, patrons, whoever you may be, however you might classify yourself. This is the latest episode of Hey Chour, obviously. What the fuck am I talking about? We've got Lee Frank Spencer in the studio today. We'll be going into the icebreaker shortly, which are questions submitted by patrons for the guest. Only patrons, platinum patrons, can submit the questions for the guest. And we've also got patrons who are watching the live stream right now. You can only do that if you're a patron of Hey Chour. In the description of this podcast is a link to become a patron of Heychoura. What you get for around about four or five quid a month, depending where you are in the world and pay for it, is a whole host of benefits and perks. Access to private areas of our Discord uh server. You can get access, depending on your level of patronage, to the live links. You can get access to submitting questions for the guests. And and uh every so often we have a guest who joins a Zoom call after the podcast, in the in the the days and weeks after the podcast has been released, to have a private QA with the patrons. They can speak to the guest directly if the guest is willing. I'm sure our guest today will be willing to just give me the thumbs up. That is good. So, enough of that. Become a patron, support me, support the Hue. You can get the Hue for about five or a month. Well worth it, and other stuff and the guests. Amazing. Uh, right, on to the icebreaker. This is gonna last about 20 minutes, Frank. Okay, I thought we were under time pressure. You have switched things up, so we're not under time pressure, which makes me very, very happy. Welcome to HR.
SPEAKER_01When you say that, you ain't heard my rambling dances yet, so you might prefer it on the back.
SPEAKER_00Um okay, right. We got a we got a load of questions from uh we got a lot of questions from David, who is the uh podcast editor and patron, and we've got questions from Coke, neither of which you know, but regular listeners of the show will know. Uh disclaimer, I haven't pre-screened these questions, as is always the case, and some people naming their names Coke has a habit of dropping some right bombshells in there and putting me right on the spot asking awkward questions.
SPEAKER_01All right, so actually always the best questions to answer, I'll find the first question from David.
SPEAKER_00After everything you've been through, from combat to oceans to public speaking, what is the one thing that still makes you nervous?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. Um I don't get nervous public speaking. I get a little jolt of adrenaline just before I go on, and I think that's healthy. Um never really hit uh there was never really a point where I thought that this could possibly be it in both Iraq and Afghanistan, except for one major point, and we'll probably come on to that in Iraq. Um so that really leaves uh the ocean, and for me, uh there was in the middle of my solo row, there was a period of about five days bang in the middle with humongous waves, probably 30, 40 feet breaking, and I spent five days absolutely petrified, and I had to come up with a uh coping mechanism to deal with that fear. Uh so that so that's my history of fear. What does what keeps me uh what uh what gets me scared now? I don't know. But you you I could say something flippant uh like the future, especially like you know, with the geopolitical shenanigans that are going on at the moment. But so I'm a great optimist. I think things and people tend to sort things out in the end. Um it's a good question. I'm sorry I can't give you a uh proper definite this.
SPEAKER_00I reckon you could probably say waves would give you uh fear again, right? 30 or 40 couple waves, they still exist, you're just not with them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're not in a boeing boat in the middle of the ocean. Yeah, that was um that was a real challenging song. Really challenging.
SPEAKER_00Oh, we talk about that on the podcast, if that's all right. Yeah, yeah. I'd like to know, not now, I'd like to know what that that coping mechanism was, though. Um, and also more about that experience. It uh it is something that fascinates me. That especially the solo rows, uh honestly, it just the it's the psych it's the psychological aspect of it that that fascinates me, but we'll come on to that. Okay. Okay, question two from David. Uh you've spent months alone at sea and decades in the military. What's something you've learned about boredom, stillness, or just being with your own thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Just being present, and that's not just being on your own, it's uh it's always just being the moment. Um, not wish your life away when you're away on uh deployment, when you're doing six months away, often turned, I think it turned a couple of times into eight nearly nine months, then you can you can kind of get into a mindset where you're wishing your life away, and actually just being present in the moment being alone at sea again is you know, it's parts of it are horrific. Just going back to my previous answer, parts of it are just amazing, and it's being present in the moment and enjoying, making sure that you enjoy that that moment.
SPEAKER_00Uh what do you mean by be present?
SPEAKER_01Um don't wish everything away, don't think about tomorrow, don't wish tomorrow would come sooner than it will. Um it's being present in the moment is enjoying everything about it. So imagine you're halfway across the Atlantic, and it is physically challenging, it's mentally challenging and emotionally challenging at times. And you can get into a point where you're wishing that away, you're wishing the next month to just come and go as quickly as possible, but you forget that you you're experiencing something, or you're in danger of forgetting that you're you're gonna miss something that very, very few people experience, you know, the colours of the sea and the colours of the sky, and just those moments where it's just you and an ocean, and you see a bird swooping by, and it it's uh it's enjoying those moments, and when you're not in the middle of an ocean, when you're um sat on a train uh waiting to get home, again, it's being present and being productive, I suppose. You know, what could I be doing? So it's it's not wishing your life away.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good advice, and something I I found a way. There's this difficulties in doing that. And if you I think each person, what's the end? They they well we'll come on the rest of the podcast, I think. Each person they don't understand what you mean by be present until they sort of stumble on stumble on a moment where they go and they're just everything, everything all stress and everything just falls away, and they realize the re realise your position in the world, the the the the you see the the the bigger picture, world, universe, your part in it, and how just magnificent and grand and huge everything is.
SPEAKER_01Well it you know, it uh the um the fear of getting a bit too deep, and you know, the future don't exist. It's it's as far as as we know it, it hasn't happened, and the past isn't real, it's real to me, but my version of the past is completely different to yours, so you know which one's real and and so neither of those exist. The only thing that exists is the now here, this and um that's that's you know, we chase so much, we think, right, everything spent my life up until probably about I think just before I lost my leg or or some time before my leg. It weren't a massive epiphany that thought one day, you know, I just woke up and it just suddenly hit me. I've got to live in the now. It's it was more of a gradual kind of understanding that all too often we're we're chasing something, but the chasing is what we do, and you know, you never catch it, and if you do catch it, then you're chasing something else. And it's it's being aware and understanding and appreciating what you have now because that's the only thing that's real. The thing you're chasing isn't real, it's not real.
SPEAKER_00Uh okay, question from uh Coke. Um he says Lee will get the reference. I get this reference. Oh, Betty, Frank Spencer, and Frank Spencer's the character. Now, all the people who are younger than us would be like, what the fuck is he talking about? There's an old programme called Some Mothers Do Have Hem.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was I was called Frank from the day I passed out and fell in with One Troop Gay Company at 4-2 commando, and a uh the acting sergeant um was Corporal Shep, Chris Shepherd, and uh he called out the nominal, got to my name, and uh he said Frank, and that was it, my name changed on that moment. Um, there was a sitcom then uh there was a point where I all of a sudden had to start explaining why I was called Frank. Most people in the military uh in the Marines had no idea that Frank wasn't my name. I've been on flight manifests, you know, submitted by sergeant majors as Frank Spencer before now. Um, and uh you'd get to a point where it got to a point where I used to say oh Frank Spencer, and they go, Oh yeah, and then people would look at you blankly, and I'll have to go, Oh, in the 1970s there was a uh soap a soap opera or comedy called Frank uh Some Mothers Do Have Hem, and uh the main character was Frank Spencer, and I've actually got a picture of Michael Crawford who played Frank uh Spencer, and it's signed to Frank number two, love and best wishes from Frank number one, which is awesome, isn't it? It's got private place on the wall in this uh front room.
SPEAKER_00So the question from uh Coke on that is uh so Frank Spencer, the character would say that often in a panic moment. So we've talked about fear. What'd you fear? So the question from Coke is give give do you have an oh an ooh betty moment, like a panic moment that do you that you did not expect in your life?
SPEAKER_01Uh do I have some uh a panic moment? Oh, yeah, loads. Uh things that you don't expect. Yeah, like everyone does, don't they? You know, life takes you by surprise all the time. I don't say oh betty when it happens, though.
SPEAKER_00Right, second question from Koch then. Uh from okay, this is from another patron. He's relaying the question. Very kind of him. Uh, when losing your leg and life uh turned upside down, how much did the Royal Marines mentality get you through it? The Royal Marine mentality get you through it? If it wasn't that mentality alone, then what allowed you to move forward?
SPEAKER_01That's that's a difficult question without defining what is the Royal Marines mentality, and that's a podcast all on its own. Um, I am a product of the Royal Marines, and the moment I woke up in hospital, I was acutely aware of how hard I fought to stay alive. So my overriding emotion was just glad to be here because I didn't think I would be. Um that um if I had woken up having had no memory of the night before and been told, oh look, you know, very slight to tell you you lost your leg, I'd like to think that my ridiculous optimism would have uh carried me through. Um anyway, so uh I am, I suppose, in answer to the question, it it played a crucial role, and uh because I am a product of the Royal Marines, so that mentality has obviously carried me through.
SPEAKER_00Uh another question from Koch. Do you so given your experience and and the resilience brought resilience that's brought about with you and uh uh and other strengths, do you look down on or have you in the past looked down on people who struggle with easy things who get you know who flat in the panic, get emotionally overwhelmed by easy things.
SPEAKER_01Um sometimes, but I'm guessing not in the way you think. Um I think when when you have been through trauma, I think it makes you more empathetic towards those that are going through a form of trauma no matter what causes it. So I think um life experience and um uh experiencing difficulties yourself makes you more empathetic to those that are experiencing difficulties, and you got you know what's important to you might not be important to someone else, and what's important to them, you might it might be a flippant remark to think, oh no, come on, man up, but you know, that's what they're stressing about isn't important to you. So I actually I think um going through hardships, going through trauma, uh in my experience makes you more empathetic. Do you disagree?
SPEAKER_00Uh I know I think possibly, I think it depends on who you are. There's a there's a follow-up to this, which Cog mentioned, which where you said I said in the past that it was it would, as in past tense, it would agitate me when people would lose it over small things like the boiler not working. This is an example I gave, but this is I was I was that was my early my early years of post-traumatic stress disorder without knowing I was dealing with that. So someone getting stressed because the boiler's gone, which to them is a major problem. You know, if you're, for example, looking after two young kids on your own and your husband's away, uh, and your boiler breaks, and you don't know what to do about it, and it's caused catastrophe, and you got whatever you need to do, that's a that's a relatively speaking, that's a major problem. I would not see it as that because it wasn't at the time, it's not life and death.
SPEAKER_01So we're like, calm, calm that we've had um we've had our horizons expanded so that we can see that isn't a problem. But if you were in that situation without your experiences, you'd be exactly the same.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'm thinking about on the on the empathy side, I think, yeah, I I think you you're correct in that. Not you're correct, not I agree in that. I can see that the empathy would be in that I understand the mental situation you're going now with the stress and it being overwhelming, and I can empathize with that feeling, and actually I can also probably help you get through it in a way. Yeah, that wasn't my what I was thinking at the time. Okay, question four from Coke. Uh what were the rules of engagement like for the former Royal Marines in the Great War on Terror? And how did it compare to the rest of the UK military? Coke isn't ex-military. Oh, okay. Yeah, rules of engagement.
SPEAKER_01So I'd done a tour of Northern Ireland in '94 where if you lost one round, you were charged a day's wages. You had your magazines were attached to your weapon with a clip and a lanyard in case you were going over a hedge and lost it. Lost one. Um and then when uh Herrick won, uh Iraq happened, it is Heric, isn't it? Telik was Afghan.
SPEAKER_00Telik was Iraq, Heric was Afghan.
SPEAKER_01Telik Telik won. Um when that happened, uh it was basically a free fall. You can shoot whatever you want, and um but so you know.
SPEAKER_00You mean shoot whatever you want in terms of use as much ammunition as you want. You wouldn't get where's that one round gone? You weren't getting cannon. Yeah, correct.
SPEAKER_01Just clarifying your words there, mate. Yeah, I know, yeah. Um I'll clarify it with a uh a little story. In in the days after the initial invasion, um I went into with my uh section into a little routine of um guarding uh positions that were captured and as the rest of 40 commando moved up towards um from Al 4 up towards Basra. And uh we were told by a serpent major to just have fun shooting things, you know. Um just so people knew that there were soldiers there. Um, so we'd set a few siloums or uh flares up and try and shoot them down and things like that. So uh that's what I mean, uh to clarify by shooting things, uh, not not people or dogs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01So um sorry about the rules of engagement. The rules of engagement are the rules of engagement. It was just it's how they're interpreted, and perhaps we'll come on to that later when we're talking about um Afghanistan and uh courageous restraint, which uh became Well, I think that's gonna be one of the first topics.
SPEAKER_00I was in Afghan, we're gonna go straight on to in the podcast because I and and I know that you've got an old uh you had an alternative and not common experience out there, which gives you a different perspective on the whole nuance. All right, one more question, you um, there are much more to go, but um I'm I don't like to go past 20 minutes on these icebreakers, so uh, from David. You've seen some extreme highs and extreme lows. Has your definition of resilience changed over the years? And or or is it the same grit you had as a young boot neck?
SPEAKER_01Um, see, resilience is one of those words that um as a keynote speaker, as someone who goes in and talks in companies about teamwork, resilience, blah blah blah. It's something I get asked all the time to talk about to people who are seniors to do it, have not got the first clue what resilience means. Um, resilience, if you look at the definition in the dictionary, there's actually two definitions one for um materials, which basically says it's along the lines of uh resilient material is something that springs back into shape, and then there's a kind of more ambiguous definition of human resilience, which is the ability to overcome hardships and setbacks. So it's not really a well-defined word, and everybody, therefore, or lots of people have a different idea of what they think is resilient. Resilience. So I'll say it's probably easiest to say first of all, what resilience isn't. Um, no one's born resilient, no one's born determined, no one has a determined mindset. Uh, resilience is like everything else. If you want to become resilient, then practice it. If you want to get good at press-ups, do press-ups, you want to get good at running, run. Uh, if you want to get good at resilience, then practice it, which means foul is literally that the ability to foul, pick yourself up and go again. That's what resilience is. Um I've got a good friend, uh Royal Maureen, uh Royal Maureen mountain leader of some note. Uh, he was a footballer. There was uh that class, I don't know what year it was, at um Skulls, Nicky Bart, um, half the Manchester United team. He came out of that team. He played with them. He was a really talented footballer, but he wanted to join the Royal Marines went off and done that way, had a fantastic career, and then lost his leg above uh the knee. And I remember talking to him once when he was uh struggling, and it suddenly occurred to me he had not been rubbish before, and now with one leg he was rubbish at everything that he tried to do, and he was struggling, whereas I'd been rubbish and have been rubbish at everything I've ever done and failed at nearly everything I've attempted, certainly at the first go. And I'm quite good at being rubbish, I'm quite good at failing because I've practiced it, and it is literally that that's what resilience is. Yeah, that's uh I don't believe anyone is born with a determined mindset. We we kind of pigeonhole people and we say, Oh, that person's like resilience and determination, there's a lot of crossover there. And we we kind of look at people and go, Oh, I wish I could be like him. I wish I was more determined like him. Determination is nothing more than practiced self-discipline. We learnt that in the military. We learnt that by starting easy by literally day one, making your bed, making yourself look presentable, making your accommodation look presentable, and that built and built and built through your training, the same as mine, till in the end I had to practice self-discipline to keep going through the commando tests when every part of my body was screaming for me to stop, and that would have been the same for you. You could not have done, I could not have uh passed the commando tests on day one of training, and that's irrelevant to fitness, it's a mindset, but that mindset is nothing more than a self-discipline that you build up through practice. Again, I'll go back to I probably say this more times if you want to get good at press-ups, do press ups.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I totally agree. Uh it's one of the reasons why I so it's one of the reasons I find it really important to put myself out of my comfort zone regularly. I try and do it, I try and do it daily, you know. Um uh because you know, I've learned that lesson that the less I the less I challenge myself and put myself out of my comfort zone and challenge my resiliency and try and get through really hard things or really uncomfortable things, uh the less I do that, then when an actual stressful situation crops up that it is not of my doing. I haven't orchestrated it to test myself, then I'm just poorer, poorer at dealing with it.
SPEAKER_01Well, perhaps my age, because of my age, I'm I'm finding uh nah, I'll sit down and I'll do that tomorrow. That's creeping in a lot more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right, let's take a pause. Um, that is the icebreaker over. This is going to roll in your in your if you're listening to this in your podcast app, this is not the end of the interviews with Frank, with Lee. It's gonna roll straight into the next episode of Hey Ch Hour, which is a full podcast, a full conversation with Lee. And we are gonna be starting off with Lee's experience in Afghanistan and uh and his uh yeah, and his his his um his thoughts on the campaign and and everything else with it. And we may also get on to everything else there is to talk about Lee. Korea, boats, rowing, boats, boats. I can feel the Royal Navy people fucking boats, ships, ships, boats, I don't care.
SPEAKER_01Call them what you like, floaty things.
SPEAKER_00I've got a couple of good mates who are Royal Navy in the hammer me when I get the terminology wrong. Hammer me. Yeah. Uh anyway, right, it's enough. Let us roll into the next episode and enjoy. Thank you.