#274 “You are not dead yet!”

For H-Hour perks, join the H-Hour Discord guild: https://discord.com/invite/KCb54MQNxd and follow H-Hour Hugh on X: https://x.com/HughKeir ******* In this episode of H-Hour, Chris Shirley opens up about his life-altering mountain climbing accident and the arduous recovery journey that followed. He shares insights into how adventure plays a crucial role in building mental resilience and rediscovering purpose. Chris also talks about his work with Hiatus Digital, specializing in digital solutions for the defense sector, and the importance of thoughtful design in branding. The discussion underscores the power of community support and the impact of physical challenges on psychological growth. Tune in for an inspiring and educational conversation. Chris Shirley is a former Royal Marines officer and also former Royal Military Police. Chris is also the founder of Hiatus Designs. https://www.hiatus.design https://www.instagram.com/hiatus.design.co

This episode is sponsored by Sin Eaters Guild - sineatersguild.co.uk

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome back to Hey Chow. I'm grinning because I was talking away just now and the microphones are off. It seems to happen every time at the moment. Anyway, welcome back to Hey Chour. Uh this is going to be episode 224 when it releases with the guest Chris Shirley. If you have missed the icebreaker with Chris and you go, what is he on about the icebreaker? There is an episode ahead of this podcast, which is called Hey Chour Icebreaker, Chris Shirley. And that is a 20-minute episode approximately where Chris has been answering questions that were submitted for him specifically ahead of the recording date by Heych Hour patrons. Heychour patrons have access to the guest list. Heychour platinum patrons have access to the live stream. So there are people watching this right now as it's been recorded. They are listening to Chris and I talk, or they will be, and they will be able to submit Chris questions in live uh in real time on the episode. So if you want to be able to do that for future guests and also recommend guests for the podcast, then uh become a patron. It's it's uh it starts off at£3.50 a week. It is nothing, right? Like you don't get anything for£3.50 anymore. Like Fredo's are marginally less expensive than£3.50 now. You can't get a regular coffee for£3.50. You can get Hugh for£3.50. Just£3.50 a month can feed me for like for as long as you want to keep it going. I need clothes, I need food, I need water, I need shelter. Talking about you are laughing. It's not helping my case here. Anyway, become a patron. Please support the Hugh uh onto the podcast. Chris Shirley, second time on the podcast. It is a great pleasure to have you back in. Welcome back to the HR studio.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

How are you doing? Mate, good, thank you so much for having me. It's been uh it's been a minute since we were last on the the first episode, and a few things have happened since then, haven't they? Which I'm sure we'll dive into, but a few things have happened.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Uh have you managed to grow your leg back yet?

SPEAKER_03 2:18

I can confirm I've got two working legs.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

My God. My god. Right. How big when you when you had to grow that bone back that you snapped, which we'll come on to, it was one of many injuries, right? Yeah, yeah. How many inches of the bone did you have to grow back? Uh well, six centimetres.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Sorry, um they only tell me a metric. What's that? Three or four inches. Uh it's two and a half, two and a half inches. Like two, yeah, two and a half inches.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

The human body is unbelievable. Unbelievable. But also, our medical like technology is unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. So I remember you having the cage on your leg. Yeah. Now I was thinking when I knew you were coming in today, I was thinking about this yesterday. I was thinking, what's the cage there for? Was the cage there to hold the two ends of the bone in line with each other, pointing at each other, so that when the bones grew from each broken end, they would meet in the middle? Not not quite.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

No, so never can um we're gonna get all marble now and like we like talk about you know like this this this crazy. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

So okay, so I'll point at the camera so it can see. So um so we don't want to break the leg, obviously, it's a big compound compound um break, and they found uh it wasn't healing up from after the after the um surgeon, you know, kind of put the put the the long metal rod into the into the tibia, into the shim bone. Um so so what happened was they they cut out six centimetres of of of shin bone, um, and obviously you then got a leg that's six centimetres shorter. Um they put the frame, you then fit you with a frame as well. So over two operations, they cut the bone out first and then and then they basically the next one they they put the frame onto it. And what the frame does is it keeps the two ends of the bone close enough because then that makes the two ends grow together. Um and I'll I'll talk about the cosmetic people have this done for cosmetic reasons as well, which blows your mind. Yeah, it's a give them close. So imagine that's hopefully the camera can do that as well. Keep the two ends of the bone that close because what that does, it inspires if that's the right word, the two ends of the bone to actually like rejoin. And then what you do is you slowly, so every every day I'll be twisting um the frame to a set a set number of twists per per part, you know, per part of the frame, and that would make the bone longer and longer and longer. It would basically move the two ends apart, so it's there creating kind of a new bone. So that's the the end of screen new bone, and you're basically just pulling it further and further and further. So it grows.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

I mean, keep doing that until it gets to the required length to match the other leg. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So that is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

And so obviously it's it's they're growing bone, but it's like it's from what the doctor described, it's like jelly, you know, so it can't it can't bear weight straight away. It takes time to condition it, to uh I think calcify is the right word, so that it becomes you know, like weight-bearing. The even more crazy thing I you know I heard obviously when I was researching this stuff was people have it done for cosmetic reasons as well. So there's there's models. I think people who want to be models don't have the required height, can add extra, extra height on by lengthening their bones. Yeah, so people have them done cosmetically to make them taller. No, and I was like just literally blows my mind when I was thinking about how and bearing in mind there's risks with this thing as well. So they will break the bone, yeah. Yeah, so they'll break the bone, they'll have the cage fitted, and they'll basically just grow new new shin bone to make themselves taller, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And and people will have that is some commitment to your your chosen profession, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Yeah, well think about it like this as well, is there's there's risks involved with this procedure. So um we we probably heard about it in the military because blokes who got blown up in Afghanistan and Iraq had you know, you used to see them around, you know, around the around the military from time to time, people who had such badly shattered legs that they were actually able to repair them using this same technique. So they'd obviously like repair the bone by kind of regrowing parts of it. I remember seeing like one at least one bloke um with it um you know when I was in the when I was in the military.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Oh listen to this, listen to this. Sorry, yeah. Um okay, so Leon O'Trember, a young German man, gained significant attention for undergoing leg lengthening surgery to increase his height from five foot eight to nearly six foot three. Oh my god! He underwent the surgeries in Turkey. Of course it was, it was Turkey. They don't just grow hair, they grow legs. Uh, involving the controlled breaking of his bones and the insertion of magnetic rods to gradually stretch his limbs over months. His journey documented on social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram has garnered millions of views, particularly a viral video of his return home where he towers over his former height. His story reflects a growing trend amongst men seeking cosmetic height increases for reasons of confidence and self-worth. That is bonkers.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

That is bonkers.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Especially when you think as well, it's not proportional, is it? It's not like you've you've you're making the entire person five inches taller, you're basically making the bottom quarter of them five inches longer.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So you're when you're when your limbs in the part of proportion, you know, what that adds extra risk on it's like not be good physiologically, right? Because you're stretching the bone, which means you've got to stretch the muscle, which means you've got to stretch the tendons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Surely. And and obviously the body will adjust. We're talking about amazing, the body is the body will adjust to that, but I can't imagine that you'd be able to go and do strenuous activities risk-free, yeah. Or you know, or with any less risk than you had before. I mean, my first question on this this this gentleman is my first observation is well, maybe what actually needed treatment was his psychological situation. You know, I I am glad I am of just above average height. I'm six foot one, I'm glad. I understand that people may have challenges of varying natures being shorter than average in the same way that you know I have challenges of varying degrees because of things that are un unusual about me. You know, we've almost got these things, haven't we? Some of them are more visible than others, yeah. But if you are that insecure, say, about your height, you need to go to a psychologist first. Yeah, and I can guarantee you the psychologist is not gonna say, mate. I tell you what, I've got just a just another cake.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

I mean yeah, I I I I can't get my head around it. You know, it it's kind of sad because you think you know the the thinking process has gone from um psychological issues, and then the only outcome to this is to make myself taller by five, you know, five inches. Oh, is it five inches? Five five inches. Five inches.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So five foot eight to six foot three. Mate, it's more than that. It's seven inches.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah, so that's like eleven.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I'm just trying to think about centimeters.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yeah, seven inches. Yeah, like eight inches. Yeah. I mean, but but like bear in mind that there's risks to eight inches. So well, so when you when you have the process as well, there's risks to obviously, you know, so so bear in mind you've got you've got I can't remember like 20 metal rods like basically screwed into your into your shin bone and you're literally going through your flesh like kebabskewers. That's 20 ways that bacteria can get into your body. And you know, and bear in mind, it goes straight into your bone.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

So did you have the magnetic rods thing, did you?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

No, my my so mine was literally like a they were drilled into my my shin bone. So obviously you put into general anesthetic, and then these things are like drilled into you, they're you know, screwed in. You've got like really thin ones that are like kebab skewers that basically just go through your muscle, and you've got the ones that are actually drilled into your shin bone. So, you know, but those are all roots that bacteria can get in. And if it gets into your bone, then I think you know what the the the outcome of it is is you'd probably lose your leg. You know, if you've got too much um bacteria, you know, if it was too ridden with bacteria or just unsalvageable, I think the only option is to literally just amputate it. So there's there's risks as well with that procedure, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Are you pumping yourself full of antibiotics?

unknown 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Uh well no, they had so I had to clean it every week. Um, clean all all the the separate um things that get, you know, the the parts that go into your body with like bright pink um fluid, which actually thankfully my my partner and Lisa was doing the doing the one cleaning. But yeah, like the you put pads over it to clean it, and obviously you probably saw it when I had um the headovers wrapped wrapped over it to stop the mud and crap getting into it, but yeah, it's it's still you know, it's uh basically like kebabs around you go through your leg.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Do me a favour, and we have not actually spoken about this, uh really. We've not no, I know the general gist because obviously the crisis that went on at the time and just phone calls bouncing around, right? What happened? So come on, talk through it if you don't mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we don't mind, I've got I've got no memory mental. Yeah, you know, like uh like is Chris gonna survive mental?

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, I was in clear camera. Go on, talk through. Okay, so bear in mind I've got no no recollection of what happened that day. Um, because I've the head injuries are so ex severe that like you know it just got rid of any memory. So I only hear hear it second hand from other people, so I have to piece it together. Um so we're we're climbing the Matahorn. Um we it was our third, no, fourth year, fourth attempt at trying to climb the Matterhorn. Our Bino. Um so me, university mates, um, climbing mates, um guys you know, we climbed Mont Blanc a few years prior to that. We'd we're on our third or fourth go at Matterhorn. Um, and we were just, you know, we're we're like a tight-knit group of climbers who I knew mainly from mate Toby who'd who'd been to university with um like 20 years prior. And yeah, just you know, a collection of of his mates and climbers who were who are really cool, got friendly with and we've been on expeditions before. Um we got weathered off the off the um the Corel hut, which is is about 4,000 metres up. So it's it's only 400 metres vertically from the summit, so it was like uh like one of those another close. Uh 4,400. Okay. Um so it's it's 400 less than Mont Blanc, but it's more technical. You're literally climbing up the side of it rather than just you know ice axe into into snow. So it's it's more technical. Um we didn't we didn't we got summited off we got weather window closed, so we got off the off the Coral Hut again, pretty downbeaten. So we were we were doing some some climbing on the on the the the kind of like the the foothills of the Mattel. Um I had my camera with me, so I was taking photos of of of um people climbing, or I think I was supposed to be taking photos, but I this the camera got smashed. Um it was salvageable, but there's no photos of climbers on there. So I think it was must have happened fairly early on into the into the day. Um friends were friends were climbing there, roped up. I'd I'd kind of been walking um apparently around the side of them and and and finding locations that I could photograph them, you know, as they were climbing up. Um but I wasn't roped up, so I was I was um I say free climbing, but I think actually the terrain was grassy and it was you know it was only steep on that that part from what I understand. I was walking around like a much more safer part. But um what what I understand happened was that I slipped and fell and had really bad luck when I tumbled and then ended up tumbling for 50 50 metres down the 15 meters. So 50, 5'0, yeah, five yeah, five zero metres um down the down the you know what I just climbed up. Um and yeah, my friends friends kind of heard the commotion, um, came over, um saw that I was I was lying, not looking like I was breathing, covered in blood. Um my helmet, I was thankfully I was wearing a climate helmet, which was absolutely smashed up.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I've seen the pictures of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, the photos of it, like it was you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

That must have hit some impact, your cranium.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, so I so I had three bleeds on the brain. Um when I got to the hospital, um, they did obviously do the the you know X-rays and all that sort of stuff. So I had a shattered, shattered skull down here, um, three bleeds on the brain um and put into a induced coma because they were like we're not sure he's actually gonna be able to see.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

What do you mean a shattered skull down your nose like that? Because not everyone watches this. So it was visible.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

No, no. So it was it was um I think from what I can remember, I can remember literally I I couldn't see out of one eye. When I I'm kind of jumping forward in the story, when I came out of a coma, um I couldn't see out of one eye, and and I could actually, whenever I touched kind of on my forehead here, it was it was quite painful. So um you know, from what I from what they they were saying, actually, like you've got a sh a shattered skull here, you know. So it's like you know, don't don't go uh you know mountain biking or anything because it's not gonna be very good for you.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

And and three bleeds in the brain. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

So um the the the kind of the the brain damage was um you know, they they think he uh what they said to my partner and my family was that we don't know how he's gonna turn out if he comes out of a coma. Is he gonna he might be you know irresp I say irresponsible, um irrespon not not responsive? Um he might be requiring care for the rest of his life. We really don't know, you know, he's there's there's three bleeds on his brain, so this could be you know, this could be him um for the rest of his life. Vegetable. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's uh that was a kind of the roll of the dice which the family were like thinking, is he gonna come out of coma? And if he does, what's he going to who's he gonna be when he comes out of coma? And I think um that kind of years afterwards I kind of you know was thinking, I was like, I'll just be pretty lucky when to recover from brain bleeds, because you know, it's it's there's there's damage there, and I've got like you know, memory loss for parts of it. I've got no sense of smell back yet. So it has had lasting effects on me for you know for for what was what was thankfully something that's come out relatively okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

So how long are we in the hospital for?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Oh there. So so I got flown to I got flown to Aosta Valley Hospital. Um was it an air airlift? Was it a mountain? Yeah, yeah, helicopter medivact. Um so they called, thankfully, they called um obviously the mountain rescue. They they flew out, uh they took me you know unconscious on the on the um helicopter. They told one of the climbing team he's not gonna make it, so just prepare yourself for the worst. Um who came on the helicopter with me, got me to hospital, um, put me into intensive care. Um what happened, what happened next? I was in I was in a coma for eight days, so I woke up. Is that a an in an induced coma? I I don't know. I I don't know if it was the the brain bleeds was make it well you know was what made me unconscious, or if they said we're gonna have to put him into induced coma.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Um probably a combination, right? Yeah, maybe, yeah, yeah. Probably like probably induced it to level to in in and that to keep you there if you did in case come out. Because am I right in saying yeah, I mean you may know, uh that they do that to minimize the blood circulation in the brain to help clear the the brain bleed, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Oh good question. I d I I mean it makes sense. I don't know enough about it. I that's I've I've not I've not heard the reasons to why I was in a coma or or unresponsive. Um you know I I think um from what I've heard, I think I think they were worried about um was it was I like suffering from like a cold or something like that, and I think that contributes to the decision to put keep me in a coma. I think I th I I was ill or something like that, so um I'm not quite sure if that has any bearing on why they put you in a coma. But all all I know was I I was in a coma for for eight days, um, came to I couldn't my memory from from the like the the following month was really hazy because like I couldn't see I remember I couldn't see out of one eye. Um I was really confused because I woke up one day and thinking I was I'd I'd seen um some mates from the military and and Bags Simmons has been on the podcast for four, asleep under asleep at the end of my bed. And I was like, What is Bags doing asleep under you know, you know, because I I must have recognised them and I was like, Am I hallucinating or something? Um and it turns out it was, you know, they were asleep at the end of the bed because um the hospital doesn't give you um nurse care. So obviously the the where whereas we get nurse care in in um UK hospitals in in Italy, where I was they they don't you know and you're you have to basically provide your own nurses to look after you. So um yeah, I was quite confused when I woke when I woke up and I was like, have I seen the two mates I know that down underneath the uh sleeping on a roll mat at the end of the uh the hospital bed.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Did you have any type of uh uh um consciousness at all in the coma? Were you dreaming or anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 19:54

I was yeah, so like it sounds it sounds really weird to say like the the coma dream was actually really quite lucid. So I I can remember um like driving around and I th I think I I kind of like mixed up with kind of like military memories where I was like deployed um in North Ireland and I'd and for some reason it it it became it was a very very I can remember the the dream really quite well, but the when I when I came out of the coma just the memory just went really hazy. So I'm not sure if that has got anything to do with um you know the the two parts of the brain that were injured or you know how it's connected, but um yeah, no, it was it was it was really strange. Um so eight eight days in the coma. Yeah, eight days in the coma.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

And then what was it like when you first when you when you came around?

SPEAKER_02 20:41

So I can't remember waking up. Apparently they they woke me up from the coma. Um they'd repaired my broken leg. So I'd I'd come out with a I'd a shattered leg, uh, broken rib, um, fractured skull, um, like all kinds of like you know, scars and stuff. Um I immediately got up and tried to walk on my broken leg, re-broke it again. Oh my god. Oh my god, so uh so I I I can't remember any of this. I was literally, you know, I was not I was not in control of my senses or or body at all at that point. So they woke me up from the the coma. Um I got up, demanded to walk, got up, broke my leg again. They put me back in. I think they put me back in a uh, you know, they put me back in a coma, I think, for a a a day or like a few hours and like that, brought me back out again, and then strapped me to the bed. I can't remember any of this either. Again, and the doctors was were um saying to my family and and my partner, we don't usually do this. He's uh he he's he's clearly not himself, he's not thinking straight. Um and he's determined to get up and walk out of out of here with a a broken leg. And bear in mind, so they they'd they'd so my my leg was was shattered, they drilled through my well, they cut uh in. my kind of like thigh here and they put a metal rod in to kind of hold all the pieces together and give it a strength and uh got up and tried to walk on that and re broke it.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

So by trying to remain this by the way there wasn't clear I wouldn't do that if I was no I do know what that behaviour do you know I have heard that kind of behaviour from so many ex-military who have been in similar situations. You know amputees and and uh there's a guy there's been a couple of guys I've had on who were in in comas um and uh one not the one that sticks in my mind is a guy called Aaron Welsh where they come around and there is just this there's this like drive within them to real like it's almost as if you're realizing holy shit I've been hit.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

You know this like I've been hit gotta get gotta get get up get going gotta get up get going and uh and I like I haven't interviewed relatively speaking that many civilians who have been through that experience but I'm inclined to think maybe that is like this this instilled military drive for people who've been in you know frontline combat situations um that they have this or maybe not just that that that military mindset or army mindset or soldier mindset that does that I think maybe I there's something in that maybe I think yeah I think they you know that the doctors the doctors apologize to family and they were they're like sorry we don't usually do this you know he's he's he's saying not himself he's not your your your usual um climber who you know sits there and and rests and recovers stuff he's he's he was determined to get up and rebro got walking and broke his leg again you know idiot you know so we strapped into the bed so I can't remember any of that so you know it's probably best it was exactly yeah yeah I think like you know the the the pain of breaking your leg you know the first time would be pretty severe obviously you then get up and do it again you know kind of idiots oh my god oh my god yeah so so when how long were you in hospital before you discharged then uh yeah so so I got repatriated to the UK I think it was uh like two weeks in Italy I repatriated to the UK um and I I I'd started to kind of start to understand at that point so you know I was I was I was like not until you got back to the UK you started no so it was it was kind of over the period of like a week or so so I was I'd started to understand what had happened so I'd I'd you know when I when I came out of the comb I broke my leg I wasn't me then I didn't really know what's going on but then it was over the the next week when I started to understand and that's when I saw Bags and Dave who were who had you know come over to my rescue as my my nurses so to speak and then I started to understand why they were here and why I'd seen them asleep underneath the seat at the end of the bed on a roll mat um you know and what they were doing to doing there to help me and I know both have got some horrendous stories about helping me to the toilet and helping me poop so I can you can have definitely get bags back onto the podcast and ask about that. So what so tell me about when you first realized what had happened then what was that what was that like mentally you know uh realizing the nature of the injuries and what had happened uh I say it's like kind of sh I say like shell shock almost um but it was more more of a case of like how much of a near miss it was you know I was I was like thinking like holy hell you know this this wasn't on the agenda for for the Mathorn trip you know I thought I was just gonna go there get a cool photo at the top of the Mathorn and be like yes I'm into the Matterhorn you know what do I do next um you know this this definitely was and it was always one of those things as a as a risk advisor at the BBC I was always like telling other people to be cautious and be like think of the worst case scenario so that you don't end up getting into some things that you can't get out of um and then here it was happening to me um you know in in on something I love doing yeah mountaineering so it it was that shell shocker that was like it can happen to you um which then brings you very much back down to earth um if you forgive the pun that you know you're like actually kind of you know you you don't really bounce anymore and it you kind of are actually human being at the end of the day yeah it's easy to take things for granted isn't it when you had such a long run of no c of of no major injuries for example which most most people go through life and don't have anything like that. Yeah yeah which kind of lulls you into a false sense of security doesn't it sometimes 100% yeah especially when you do an extreme extreme activities even if you take all of the safety measures in the world you know it's like oh man yeah I d there's there's definitely a um a lesson in it for increasing your your risk appetites really subtly you know like it's almost sleepwalking into a higher risk appetite you know because it it's it's clearly clearly I should have been roped up there because I was wearing a helmet um you know I should have been roped onto an anchor of some sort but clearly I was like I thought better of it and and didn't realise the risk was of of falling or injury was so severe until I until it happened to me. And I was like okay so should have should have done this a bit better.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah. Yeah so where where did you go to in the UK hospital wise then?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

So I went to Homerton hospital um because my partner so it's it's um kind of hackney like North Hackney. So my my partner Annalisa lived in in Hackney um the nearest hospital to her was was Homaton so we got flown back because there's there's also they had to take you to specific trauma wards or specific trauma hospitals so to speak because um they only they only had the specialists there to be able to to to deal with complex cases.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

So in that in case for you then that that was in the case of your leg.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah so I think there's I think the options were like Brighton and and again I think they were asking me but then my family was deciding on my behalf because I wasn't you know had a brain like scrambled egg at that point and we know what's happening. I think it was like Brighton uh rural London Homerton and like a few others um you know kind of like around the UK but yeah like if you if you if you have um blunt force trauma or any kind of trauma you you can't go to just any old hospitals because they need to have the specialists there to to obviously put you back together again. Brain bleeds yeah um not for a few months so so how'd you manage that I like how did you manage that um so so there's like I was confused I was confused for a long time you know flying would have been an issue right flying would have been I mean they took they took us back in little Cessna you know like literally the skydiving um plane that you jump out of so I don't know what the risk is with I don't know if they fly at a certain altitude and you know it's it's obviously not a pressurised plane because it's just a like a little you know little tiny tiny thing um that you you know you do skydive out of so um yeah I don't quite know on on that respect but they it went on for a few months because they I had occupational health um checks in when I was in hospital and I didn't and it was basically to to check you're you're in control of of everything so they got me to they got me to make some chicken pasta um and bags there as well so you can you can recount the tale and they were like right Chris so you said your favourite food is chicken pasta you make it regularly we'd like you to make us some chicken pasta for for bags and make him a cup of tea as well and it took me about 20 minutes to make a cup of tea and I basically Why is that what was what was taking the tea just just because I mean I was on crutches at the time so I was I was on crutches trying to move around the kitchen but I just couldn't think straight of like how do you make a cup of tea right first boil the water you then set the cup up you put a tea bag in the cup you then put the boiling water in the cup and put some milk in there and and bear in mind this was all I was all like thinking this through it wasn't coming to me very easily it was like how do you make a cup of tea oh yeah but you know and people were there was trying to remember and then put those steps in place remember the steps while you're doing the steps exactly yeah yeah wow and and basically that was like the the threshold for like he you know he it took him 20 minutes to make a cup of tea so he won't even bother to get onto the chicken pasta right now because he's this is gonna take far too long so they they time me out of the chicken pasta I think I got as far as I think putting the pasta on the on the hob and they were like thank you very much yeah imagine like a driving instructor like thank you very much Chris uh that's the end of the test you failed you you failed at the thinking test I was like oh no but yeah but but it's in between uh homaton um I've moved be moved to another hospital so when they when they took me to Homaton the um the the the doctor and I remember him I remember his name because it's Chad which is obviously uh you know a buzzword Chad was it yeah uh a a buzzword for cheesy in the in the um in the marine so you know when I had a a young a new doctor and his name was Chad I was you know I was like I know what that word means um but yeah he noticed that actually the the the post um surgery scars weren't healing and he was like I'm quite concerned about this so he got got me into um have like a specialist check and they said you've got a um infection in your leg so we're gonna have to basically cut out six centimetres of shim bone to regrow it because it's infected. So and actually I didn't realise just how important your shim bones are actually quite important because they've got they they produce the red blood cells in your body so um actually the the shim bones have actually got a bigger role than just support keeping you upright. I heard this recently from someone I totally forgot yeah so they're the only bone in the body that produces the red blood cell I I don't know if they're the only body um we might have to ask AI that question but I didn't yeah I didn't realise they were they were quite as important as they are they're they actually serve you know more role than just keeping keeping it upright.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I'm looking out so okay in adults that's that's you and me question as well in adults red blood cells are primarily produced in the red bone marrow located within specific bones. The main sites of erythropiasis erythro eryth erythropiasis are the vertebrae the ribs the sternum the pelvis and the proximal ends of long bones like the femur and humorous uh what about shin bones okay uh hang on uh I'm gonna put shin bones I'm gonna ask it a leading question okay yeah I wonder if I'm conflating shins produce red blood cells let's be let's see if you can deal with leading questions AI the shins which are part of the tibia bones you fucking liar is it white blood cells you liar my but my shins which are part of the tibia bones do not produce red blood cells in adults white blood ask white blood cells then because I won't maybe I'm getting too confused there was there was there's something more than just why you let's look at okay Lena why are the shin bones special come on where are we let's have a look oh the tibia commonly known as the shin bone is special due to its critical role in weight bearing and lower limb function uh blah blah blah blah blah no the tibia is also unique in anatomical composition and function it's a long bone covered by compact bone the tibia blah blah blah uh no nothing about about white blood i've i've lied lots of times listen we just need to apologize here there's something special about it i thought it was like well i thought it was red blood cells but maybe it's maybe it's not maybe it's like maybe it's why maybe it's something else anyway maybe fine they would they would either way yeah it's an important it should yeah but I mean they they could tell so so the the doctor looked at it and was like saying this should be healing faster and uh the the reason for it was something to do with a bone you can tell there's a an infection in the bone if it doesn't heal because it the bone plays a part in it. Well it must be an infection in the marrow then well yeah because that's super dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yes yeah well that's that's kind of I think what led on to them then cutting six centimetres I didn't have it for cosmetic reasons I'll just yeah you were five foot eight before the mantle yeah no so they so whatever was going on in there they they cut out six centimetres of uh of bone but yeah they they said look unless we can unless this heals up in the the next you know few days we're gonna have to do this because it's you know it's been like this for four weeks now and it was basically what were the alternative options no there were no options. Well no I think it's literally just like you you cut you get rid of it.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

The lower leg?

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Well yeah like it's yeah it's I think because the infection spreads for your bone marrow up the rest of your body and it's like you know if it's not being hit by antibiotics or that I think the option is just like you know you have to get rid of it. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Um so yeah you know so it's it was like didn't really have a choice in it it was like you know could could about it get over the blood you get over the brain bleeds yeah and then you're faced with will I will I have fully functional lower limbs again.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Well that that was it wasn't a case of you getting over one and then you deal with the other it's more of a case of the you're dealing with both at the same time. So the the the doctors were worried about the blade the brain bleeds because it was you know hard to quantify what what impact does this have. And then the the junior doctor Chad was like uh how long are you how long have you had that scar? Because this was this was the second hospital I was at so I've gone from Italy to um to ro to Homerton and then I would go on to another hospital rural London for where they'd actually do this procedure and then and then look after me afterwards. So yeah he was he was then saying I'm kind of worried about your your leg here this should be healing faster. So yeah it was like brain bleeds oh and this as well oh my god the best best would be to come obviously the following March in 2020 when obviously there was more interesting things to do with going on in the world.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Oh COVID. Yeah exactly yeah wow so when did you get when were you when were your leg back fully functional then? When was the accident?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

March 19 September 2019.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

September 2019 yeah and when are you fully when were you fully functional?

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Um I guess see uh what like how do you define fully functional because I've I've not got I I've still got a like a really tight Achilles tendon um I've still got no sense of smell I can't um you know I can't run properly yet because uh the the the muscles in your foot still haven't caught up with it so yeah I guess like it depends on how you mean fully functional have you been climbing again since no no oh well no I've been indoor climbing actually for yeah that was for a birthday celebration but obviously family were like make sure you're wrapped up how how did you feel about that have you got like a fiano to do with climbing? Not not no because I can't remember anything from the accident. So like for me it was just I'm just you know I'm doing uh indoor climbing you know I'd tie the tie the ro tie the figure of eight knot in the same way I would usually um I've got somebody you know mate Heath is there belaying me um you know so it was like indoor climbing as as usual.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

It's useful in that way to not have the memory isn't it I feel like if you could remember you'd be going nowhere near that climbing wall. Well nowhere near that climbing wall.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

That's why I do I do say I'm kind of lucky for that instance because like because I couldn't remember anything um I don't have any like traumatic flashbacks or bad memory you know the hospital was yeah I won't necessarily want to go back to hospital again but I don't have any things associated with the climbing or the or the fall.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

I wonder if that's the reason that the brain does that sometimes as in a it's the way it's evolved and it and the brains and and like human brains realise okay it's better sometimes to not remember really bad stuff because in in the future it may put you put me off human doing similar stuff again which may influence my likelihood of survival because XYZ yeah yeah you know like for example hunting an animal and you know caveman hunting an animal has a near death experience because the sabre toothed tiger nearly rips your head off and then your memory wipes that traumatic episode because it means you'll go unlikely to go and hunt more again in future and survive.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

I don't know I'm just no I mean there must be a survival mechanism there somewhere it may it makes sense doesn't it because if you if you think it almost it's almost like protecting you from you know deep seated trauma in a way isn't it because it's like if I if I just switch off or just do something else and obviously it means you you can like you say keep on doing doing other things. Interesting yeah fascinating yeah it is interesting uh yeah wow you were lucky man I honestly well obviously you can get on to get on to saying thank you as well for um sourcing me a wheelchair for those those months after after hospital because um you know when I did did eventually get discharged in December 2019 um I had one leg that was literally six centimetres shorter than the other and it was you probably don't remember this the the foot was pointing out at like a jaunty angle so it literally looked like you know we were looking at it going what earth has happened to your leg because it was like you know this this tall and the foot were pointing out and had a massive cage on a big dramatic looking cage and it was like I'm gonna end up with a normal leg again in ten months time you know and it was like ten months you'll wear that cage on and uh you know and carry on your normal life um you know and you're you're just there doing the the the you're going for like an algorithm of like do this one five times to the left and this one five three times to the right and this one to you know and you go for it every single day doing the do the adjustments every single day to basically just pull those bits of bone over slightly further apart. You know for 10 months I had the oh my god the amount of times you bang it on tables and stuff and bear in mind in mind this thing's like screwed into your your your shin you can feel that it through your entire skeleton when you accidentally knock the frame. Oh really? Yeah what does that feel like explains what that feels like it's like it makes you go cold because like all of a sudden you're like you know you you knock it and you and say you're walking around in the kitchen you accidentally you forget that your leg is all of a sudden I don't know wider than wide like triple the width that it usually is.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

You clang it into a table and you're just like oh yes I remember now you know it's like stubbing your toe on stabbing a million times worse yeah and you can feel it everywhere it's not like your toe your toe cold what do you mean you got cold?

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Well because it's um there's there isn't really like a pain like it you know you stub you stub like an exterior limb you know like your your toe or your I don't you know I'm just thinking like stub your finger but when it when it when it's you feel the feedback loop directly into your bones it's like another level of um another another level of like cringeworthy feel you know it's like you know you just you just feel it reverberating around your bones you're like oh yeah my leg for God it's wider than usual yeah I yeah yeah I would not want it doesn't happen many times though but like when you first when you're first doing it you're just like oh wow yeah that's I would not want that at all um yeah like I mean do you know what that that whole situation um I say situ from like from the outsider's perspective isn't the people who who knew you I was involved very light touch you know at that point we weren't you know we weren't close friends or anything like that you know we kind of had interviewed you we were mates right and um and obviously you had the Tales of Adventure thing coming up yeah yeah but it was a something else I I use some some thanks for as I was running the Tales Adventure when I was in the coma because that was the that was actually the day when I woke up from the coma so oh was it yeah can I can I say it can I can I kind of go through the can you say what the Tales Adventure thing go for it.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

So go for it. So um so when I was in the coma so I'd I'd organised I'd been running Tales Aventure which is a community um group speaker series where everyone would get together in the same room and obviously you spoke you spoke on it um uh in the months prior I think to that summer hadn't you so you you knew what it was what was about what the the setup of it was I organised two um two of the Afghan mountaineers the female Afghan mountaineers to to talk they'd been flown over by a charity um to the UK to do like a round of like you know influence uh kind of outreach stuff uh and and when I heard about this I was like made sure I got in touch with touch with the CEO and said let's get your venture at the time beforehand you'd been out enabling basically sporting activities in Afghanistan hadn't you know this is 2019 so and then I mean that includes snowboarding cycling all sorts wasn't it yeah so that was like parkour it was mountain bike teams it was um running all sorts yeah so that was that was that was my you know my my main thing so when I'd organised this to happen you know clearly I hadn't thought if I fall off a mountain then then this sales eventually is not going to go ahead but because of my partner Ann Lisa um she roped in you my friend Heath um Tom who's also been on the podcast and Bags oh and that's what I mean yeah he he reached out so Tom reached out to Jonathan Beale from the BBC one of the defense correspondents and he kindly mc'd the event for me which when I when when I look back at the videos now you know I'm just thinking it was like a full packed out audience you know they all paid all paid like five I think five or like six pounds to come to it you know and it was like you know people people ran it and and kept to get on you know whilst I was there in a coma and that's the that's the night I woke up at from the coma.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

So that was the I didn't realise that was the night. I didn't realise that was the night. That I mean that situation, you know, that situation it's a really good example of um when you have this sort of community or uh various networks and friend groups, right, who are not connected, yeah, you know, and the and and they all have this you know this this sort of commonalities between them all in that there's different individuals that overlap between different networks and groups and stuff, and yeah, this is just a fact of any any any community social organization, so to speak. Uh but when something like that happens, and it you can analogise it to like uh you know a magnet has like a a positive and a negative pole, as the two poles, and all the electrons, the electrons in the middle, they're all like pointing different ways. Yeah, yeah. And when you you exert, when you present a force or a stimulus on one of the towards that, either the north or the south pole of the magnet, all of the all of the electrons in the middle, they all all of a sudden, they're all pointing different ways, they're doing their own thing, and then they all go, they all point and point exactly the same way. Common cause, right? Concentrate now, we've got a job to do. We've got a job to do, and that is like that whole thing, like Tales of Adventure was only one little part of it, you know. Yeah, yeah. You're involved with so much, so many other things, and with so much else that needed to be done, from care of you, you know, like the the wheelchair, right? So I know you said thanks me for that, but it's like that just getting the wheelchair. I didn't magically have a wheelchair sat next to me. You know, it's like you know, it's like Chris needs a wheelchair, okay. Ask the network, whichever we did, and there was a wheel, and it came from Colchester, where it came from. Now, I can't remember who sorted that out for me. I think it came from the Health for Hero Centre up there. I think it's there, yeah. You know, but um but they wasn't like the authorized to give it. It was like sneak the wheelchair, okay. Where's it going? Who do you need it for? Chris Shirley, who's he? No, no, but we need it to give it okay, cool. Back of my car, down to London, London Avenue with Bags, Bags gets the wheelchair, goes to, and then all of a sudden it wakes up. Again, it's all like everyone's orientated in the same way for the same purpose, you know. And uh I and and only the you know, the that kind of orientation only happens in this with the the best kind of people in the most important of circumstances for the absolute right reasons, you know. For example, Chris Shirley, who is not a dick, Chris Shirley's this guy, does all this stuff, but Chris is nearly dead, guys. So we need to sort him out and help his family out, help him out, and also he's got this event on that he sold tickets for, and he ain't gonna be here.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

What? So raise funds for the charity. Yeah, and it was like you you could you literally couldn't put like any more like complicated things to it, could you? It's like Chris, yeah, because because even Tom, you know, Tom Tom flew out to to Aosta to take my my my north face grip of climbing gear back to the UK, you know, because it was like he's got 20 kilo, I've got 20 kilos of like you know, tent and sleeping bags and you know climbing, you know, climbing harnesses and like carabinas and stuff. And it's like he flew out just to get the my gear back to the UK, you know. And I'd you can't you when I when I and when I think about all those little things that people did, I'm just like, I'm gonna be saying thank you for a lot of years afterwards. Now it's been five years, five years, literally, yeah, last month.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

I mean the thing you can never be able to say thank you everyone. I mean you don't need to, you don't need to there's so many like fringe elements to it, or not fringe elements, but these other these other elements to it that that were involved even in the most sort of in like intangible of ways in supporting it, like uh like Mike Valance. You know Mike Valance now, you know Mike Valance now well. But you know when that happened, you know, Mike had events organized in up in Lemington Spa as part of Rug of the Heroes that all of a sudden got uh Chris Shirley Tales of Adventure orientation to them. You know, there was a he had a hot he had a whole he had a whole um restaurant full of diners given the shaka, you know, giving the shaka giving the shaka to that event totally unrelated to Tales of Adventure, but because he knew and other people knew, it's all right, Chris is in the shirt, right? Let's send him some positive vibes.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

You know, it's like you reminded me, actually you reminded me again as well. You had um the guy from Fun Love and Criminals, Huey Morgan, Huey Morgan, yeah. Like I used to live to oh he's in the shaker, didn't he? He's got a book out at the minute. Oh, my good book, guys.

unknown 49:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Um Heath, my friend Heath got in touch with Tom Hardy for Instagram and I got I got shared on Tom Hardy's Instagram as well. So, you know, and like Bear I got uh you know uh appreciating posts posts from Bear Grills as well, and lots of lots of people came together who you know you you can't even begin to think of like when you know when you actually really, really need help, my god, people will move heaven and earth. I and I'd I'd say it's it's not just veterans, but the the large part of it was people who are in the military who are like like you say, like those those electrons, they just all of a sudden it's like, right, we need to pull Chris out of this shit because he's he's fallen off a mountain. We're not sure if he's if he's gonna come out of this coma, if he's gonna survive. Um he's he's been doing this work in Afghanistan, he's been working when the sales venture community, and all of a sudden you're you're doing all these things, and people kindly step in. Um bear in mind my admin wasn't just you know, I hadn't left like a convenient folder of of like you know instructions in the event of who does falling off the mountain, like please do this, this and this. People were having to go through you know phone record. I don't know how how do you get into my phone and each other.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

I think I think even the I think even the the ticketing for the event until it was a problem because the eventbrite was yours, was it not? Yeah, it would have been like this all all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Yeah, like I it was not a it was not a small, easy, quick task. It was like I think we all hate admin as much as it is, you know. I just think when when you know you've got to grasp that nestle and really do that admin, is like when you know that's that's how you know when you've got good friends when people would go through that admin for you. So there's there's a lot of lessons there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Well, I actually didn't realise it was that until we talk about it now that it was that serious. I I didn't know about the bleeds in your brain. I knew it was I knew that it was serious at the time, but uh not that serious. I hadn't realised, you know, I hadn't realized. Um so uh yeah, well done, you're knew it's true, yeah. Jesus, man. Jesus. And then you went straight to COVID.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Oh yeah, yeah, went into COVID, yeah. So so bearing in mind I had this this frame on my leg. Um what what COVID kind of started happened in March time, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 51:35

First lockdown, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Um so I was still I had to go into the hospital every week, I think at that point, maybe every few weeks, have it checked out, make sure that the the have it x-rayed, make sure the the process was happening as it should be, and obviously, and then it was like COVID's happened, so they're like they're like trying to think, do it does it need to come in every week? Can we do it via remotely? Um as it happened, I was still had to go into hospital every I think every three weeks then at that point. Have it x-rayed, have it checked. Um but obviously you can't just you know, I couldn't walk a mile down to Royal Hospital, so it was like they then send ambulances, you know. I think they they were sending ambulances around to get patients into the hospital so they can make sure that it wasn't you weren't taking the bus or you weren't, you know, walking and bringing in bringing infection in. So yeah, crazy. But I I think um you know, one thing I do say to everyone is that you know, if you're gonna if you're gonna recover from something big like this is you may as well recover when the whole world is going through this huge change you know, because nothing was happening. So it was there wasn't really wasn't really anything to miss out on because everyone was on lockdown. So I was I was almost you know just a bit locking down a bit earlier than that because I was trying to regrow my leg. Yeah, it's a good way to look at it, actually.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

It's yeah, fortunate in that respect, actually. Yeah, yeah. What's um what's Estonia like? How are you how have you been finding Estonia? What's it like comparatively speaking to the UK? I've not I've never been. I've been in Latvia, which is like in the vicinity, maybe isn't it? I don't know. You know, what's it like out there? Estonia. I mean it's it's like it's like far from being Baltic cold.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

It's cut it's cut it's colder than the winter. I never did Norway with a with the Marines, so I kind of like think of this as like my Norway, my Norway phase of life, you know, as my cold weather, cold weather warfare phase of life. But um, I mean it's it's it's interesting because obviously we're it borders Russia. Um it's it's really digitally advanced. They've had digital ID cards for you know for decades now. When they vote, you know, you can vote, you can get married, you can you can pay your taxes, you can do everything digitally. There's not not a case where you have to go and have a physical thing. So it's it's useful in that respect. Um Estonians um obviously was part of the Soviet Union up until 1991. Um it's it's you know right in the it's part of the EU, it's part of NATO, um, it's it's right up in the northern corner of of uh the EU. So it's just below Finland, um, above Latvia, um, and obviously right on the border of Russia. Um it's it's it's an interesting place. Um there's there's there's lots of lots of things going on there in terms of they're thinking they're thinking like kind of years ahead, you know, like right, how do we build, how do we incorporate AI into our education? Because they're a smaller country, they're they're 1.3 million people at the moment, um, was the last census. So it's like that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I know that's that's so so when I put into perspective, I was like, this is literally Angel on Hackney. Um I did not know I'm that small. I think kind of la land mass size. I think it's about the size of Wales. Um, but don't don't quote me on that because after the um you're checking it be like, actually Chris is like Scotland. Um uh so yeah, so it's so it's like a really low population density, and it's all concentrated above, you know, pretty much in Tallinn and Tartu, the the the second biggest city. Um it is so outside of it, it's very rural. Um you've got lots of you know, lots of like countryside, lots of um I think is it over half the country, maybe two-thirds of the country is forested. Um there's like thousands of lakes there. It literally looks like your your your Scandinavian wilderness, you know, your mountainous, is it? No, it's flat. It's flat it's flat as a pancake. So probably the best place that I could be after the mountain. My partner was just like, right, give me a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Yeah. What's that? Are they they got a so have they got a communist history?

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Uh well, they were part of the the um USSR, obviously, you know, Soviet Union back until um the 1990s, but it was you know, they didn't willingly join it, it was absorbed after World War II. Um, you know, so obviously uh uh Russia expanded up to the to East Germany, and while I'm running absorbed um, you know, part of Poland, uh Lithuania, Latvia, um parts of the Balkans, but I yeah, my geography is not so good on that front. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

What are the what are the people like?

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Um they're they're quite Scandinavian. Um so like like like their countryside, um sometimes get sometimes getting conversation out of them can be quite difficult, quite challenging. Um so quite reserved. Um like English, English is spoken really well, say for people below 45, you know. So you can go out and pretty much talk in English to people and they'll they'll talk back to you, and they'll hear my my poor Estonian and they'll reply back to me in English, and I'll be like, Oh, I was trying to trying to improve it, but now you're just just speaking back to me in English. Um like Estonians are like they're they they work hard, they they're incredibly intelligent, like they're average, I think they're one of the leaders in the EU or when it comes to education. So like they're really you know, really above the EU.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Why is that what are they doing differently?

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Um there's there's just been a focus on it. So like there's a there's a whole um societal focus on education, you know. You you go into you you you do your your primary school, your secondary school. I think you've education is up to 18, I think, off the top of my head. But then people will go into university and and you're not really seen as finishing university until you've done your masters, you know. So there's like a real focus on you know uh what that what that does to the general population is obviously then the default position for applying for jobs is is going to be masters. So if you don't go up to masters, then you're gonna be on a bit of a disadvantage to your people applying for jobs. Um so it has it has you know plus and minus effects in terms of people know people are very well educated, but if you say going for a job out there, yeah, I think you'd find it quite hard if you didn't have like a you know master's degree.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Why do you think that their their demeanour is like quite reserved? Have you thought about that?

SPEAKER_02 57:59

Yeah, I think it's I think it's a mixture of things. So kind of you you can obviously see how you know when the Soviet Union was active, you know, you didn't really talk to your your neighbours about things for fear of it. Well, exactly, yeah, yeah. That's you know, that's I've done a lot of travelling around the country and and that's kind of what I understand to be the you know a contributing factor. I think also as well is it's very Scandinavian thing to be very kind of private, you know, whereas whereas Brits, you know, we're very kind of outgoing, especially in London, places like this, you know, you're you you you talk to people and you like to be surrounded by kind of lively things happening, um, whereas actually Scandinavia, I think as a whole, is a lot more reserved than than you know other big places.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Yeah, and the reason I say that is this is randomly.

SPEAKER_03 58:48

I was thinking I randomly thinking about this yesterday when I was doom scrolling, like it was Russia, not that bad, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

And this whatever this nonsense crap I was looking at. Anyway, it threw up oh the it was like the most depressing town in the world. This is what he said, reportedly, and I think it was called Urdusk, something like that, and it was in Russia, and just looking at the image of this place, you go, Oh my god, man. And it, you know, it looked at first glance like it was basically, you know, apartment blocks, apartment buildings, yeah, everywhere, really packed in close to each other, that sort of characteristic rundown Russian, like Chernobyl look, you know, when no one lives there anymore, but they do live there. Yeah, you should basically saw that in the Senia as well. Yeah, and it's dark and dingy, it looks fucking freezing. It probably is freezing all the time, and it was quite uh where was it? It was northern Russia somewhere. I can't remember, I can't remember where. And I was thinking, I was looking at it thinking, I was thinking about what the daily life must be like. Like you know, these fleeting thoughts of the milliseconds before you swipe up to the next wheel. And I was looking at it and go, I wonder what it's like. And I was thinking I was thinking about the character of a lot of the stereotype that you have a lot of a lot of Russians. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking this like this is why they either like hard drinkers or they're very reserved and don't see them very much, because to go outside is freezing cold, freezing cold, freezing cold, and you just so you don't socialise a lot because it's not convenient to do so, you know, and you're only really socializing with your own people in your own apartment, which is probably true for a lot of the those countries in those kind of climates, you know, they just they just they don't socialise very often because they do it less, whereas here we're more fortunate. We can cut about and it's it's not it doesn't get that cold where you don't want to step outside everything. Yeah, so you just it's natural to be talking to people, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

Yeah, I think I think it's it's probably like like a number of factors, like you know, there's a number of these push push factors in there, it's part of the health thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's I mean, that's my I've I've been there for three years now, and you know, I come back regularly. So, you know, I've kind of like observed it. I've done I've done races, you know, bikepacking races around the country twice now where you literally go the entire way. Like bikepacking races. Um so you you you basically tour around all these places, and and I see those ghost towns, I call them the ghost towns, like where you, you know, they were they were clearly and they're very Soviet-looking, um, you know, apartment complexes, very you know, brutalist architecture, and um it's it's quite depressing, sadly, because it's you know it it literally looks like it's an unloved, it looks like I'll go ahead and say it, it looks like something from The Last of Us. You know, you'd you'd look at a zombie disaster film and you'd be cycling around these places and you'd be like, Am I on a film set? Or am I this is like literally like a dying, dying dead town.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

You see them everywhere in the in in in Eastern Bloc, don't you? You do you know, I remember going to I've been to Serbia a couple of times. You see similar places up there and uh in all these all these areas. But I think as well, I mean partly as an indication of maybe the kind of places they are or they were, but also because they're so prominent, like uh they're so common by the people who live there, they're kind of accept it as a norm. Like we kind of judge in the look of it based on what we're used to, yes, yeah, on our values and what we expect to be to see. Yes. There's a different part of the world, yeah, totally different history. Yeah, yeah. But the same way you go to Nepal and you know they live in mud huts. Yeah, well in the foothills of the Himalayas kind of thing, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

No, yeah, well, yeah, you know, no 100% like it. I think it's um you kind of you you get used to your surroundings, don't you? And if if that's you know, all you've kind of really ever seen, and and you know, then you'd accept that as the norm. Um can I shoot them we at a wee break. I've done that thing where I just drink too much water. I'll have one as well. Back into it. Right, we're back. We're back.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Chris didn't go to the toilet. He spent the last Chris what he did was he spent the last five minutes fact checking. Because I called him a liar about the shin bone. No, mate, finish your mouth off, too late. Listen, he's been fact checking about the shin bone.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

So it does.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

The bone marrow produces red blood. So it's like crap, doesn't it? Yeah, anyway, all right. So we were both right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

It's not easy to have an argument, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

I mean it's a bit it's like, yeah, what did it say? The shim bone, it said the shin bone doesn't produce red blood cells, but the marrow inside it does. Fucking hell man. I say come on, come on, AI, you can do better. Um where were we? What were we talking about? Jesus. What are you doing now? Oh, you drank all that, yeah. Okay, so we're we're we're uh we're back. So hang on. What were we talking about before we went off air? Estonia.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Estonia um ghost ghost towns in Estonia, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

That's right, yeah. Um Yeah, and I I I mean I ask about it, and the reason I ask about it is I'm becoming increasingly more interested in that though that the in the ex-Soviet parts of the world. Um mainly because I'm I'm reading a great book at the minute called The Cold War. Yeah, yeah. And it is amazing. I've never I've not read a book specifically on the Cold War before, and this is a historical recount of it. Yeah, yeah. And it is so interesting to read. So interesting to read.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

Here's one that will blow your mind. So you can go and visit the nuclear rocket silos in Estonia and the Soviet countries, and sorry, the Baltic countries, which I've done a few times now. Literally, you can visit the old rocket bases, and they're they're obviously deep into the woods. You know, you've literally got to get a train and a you know, mountain bike for a few hours to get to them because they are so deep into the woods, you know, and that you you can see them on Google Earth. Um, you know, there's there's tourism sites dedicated to go and visit these rocket bases, and it's it's kind of a bit weird, you know, when when I look back up now and I go, Well, it's you know, basically just going there to look at where nuclear warheads were pointing towards the west in the cold war, but because it's such recent memories, it kind of brings it to life more, you know, and then and then I can show other people, you know, if you want to go and visit this rocket base, take this train to this place and cycle or drive a car to get there. And yeah, but yeah, fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Anyway, wild times, mate. Wild times, wild times, and you think about like when I'm reading it, I'm thinking of all in the context of what's going on now in Russia, you know, and America, because it's not obviously Cold War, it's predominantly the book is predominantly about the the main actors in it, which were America and Russia, and there's other things in there, but it does change your perspective on things at the moment in terms of I don't mean drastically, but an adds adds context to you know things like what Putin may be thinking, given all that he was, you know, because he was there significant in significant roles, not politically, but you know, security agency towards the tail end of the Cold War. And you think about the kind of environment that was, the kind of role models he might have had, you know, the kind of the kind of opinion of America he may have. Yeah. You know, and there's other things in there like um uh recently uh about about two thirds of the way through, and it's uh and it was uh it's been talking about CIA when the CIA came about in nineteen fifty eight, I want to say. And like the original mandate, and there's and it and it's a there's a it was there was a there was a The conversations that have been had at the highest levels within the USA about well, what is acceptable behavior overseas? What we deem acceptable now in terms of how a country, a nation state, should behave morally, ethically, yeah, um, from things like the Geneva Convention as an example. Now, this isn't reference in it, but you know, these kind of rule sets, international playbook that you have about don't go, don't, don't be naughty. Don't be meddling other people, don't take other people. Let's not go meddling in other countries and try and, for example, and try and overthrow a a leader of a country who's been democratically elected because we don't like that leader. And these actual things that have been conversations, and it's interesting because they because uh early on in the CIA's when the CIA is falling, when I say early on, I mean in the first months, yeah. These things conversations have been had, and they come to the conclusion that the greater good for the greater good, it is okay to do things that we wouldn't find acceptable for other countries to do to us, yeah, but to do them elsewhere because the we because for the greater good and to preserve Western democracy, it's fine. But we've got to keep it a secret from the public. It is so good. And uh and you go, holy shit, they go, yeah, it's fine, we could just keep it a secret because the public wouldn't understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the budget for the CIA, when that decision was made, the budget for the CIA went from eight million dollars to something like sixty million dollars in the space of nine months. Oh wow, and they go, and they they then get their fingers in all the pies everywhere, and they are fucking around, you know, like secret espionage and assassinations and all sorts of stuff. 101. It goes off the charts, really off the charts, mate. But also in the context of it, you had that that major um that major power struggle between East and West Gorge and West, you know, and and the fight against communism and the very real threat of communism on uh America's own home shores and elsewhere, you know, of which Estonia was a part of it. Yeah wow, yeah, and you look at then when you look at these countries and these places that exist on the fringes of either of Europe, Western Europe, yeah, or uh or Russia, these these that go back and forth into the hands of each and the influence spheres of each. Belarus is a classic example, yeah, yeah. Classic example, Ukraine's a classic example. You go, wow. These places have been turbulent for a long, long time in a different way to somewhere like when I think of Afghanistan, wow, that place's been turbulent for a long time with war, with war, mental for hundreds of years. Yeah, yeah. But much nearer, much uh in much closer uh like history than that. The country is right on the doorstep of things like that. Yeah, yeah. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And even better example is Germany. You think how young Germany are in terms of in terms of let's say their rebirth after the Second World War? Yeah. That is not long ago. Not long ago. Or even younger than that, Czech Republic. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Estonia, the 90s. Estonia, yeah, you know, the fall of the Berlin Wall. That just chantly upends how countries operate, yeah, where their ties are, what their allegiances are, how their the morals, the principles, what guides them, what their intent is. Thinking, yeah, yeah. 25 years ago, 30 years ago. Well, 30 what 35 years ago now. Yeah. 35 years ago. Yeah, yeah. You know, we forget just how turbulent European times have been. Just a generation ago. Yeah, yeah. You know, 100. When we're still, in some respects dealing with the legacy effects of World War II with debts that are only just get being paid off the owed.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Yeah. You know, crazy when you think about it, isn't it? Like, you know, literally that World War II is is finished a long time, you know, multiple generations ago, yet the impact of it is still being felt like decades later, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

Why why? I I I yeah. I always almost like I wish I'd gotten I'd I'd started reading up on this kind of stuff when I was younger, you know. But then I didn't have the appetite for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:09

Well, I think exactly, yeah. I mean you think think back to the military, is that you know, all those times you're forced on like battlefield tours and um you know the the the those things where you you know battlefield, I'm trying to think of what else are the battlefield tours, you know, you're taking on like on like other other trips and stuff as well to kind of help increase your understanding, but it doesn't really have that effect on you, you know, because you're you're you're a young lad, you know, young soldier, and you're more interested actually in just you know kind of in you know engaging with people proving your your ability to soldier and you know stuff like that, and yeah, I think actually it's probably you're probably better off, I think not going to that level of not analysis, but you know, knowledge exploration of geo international geopolitics when you're in, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

Because I think you'd you'd be tainted in the bias that you would read it with or consume it with, I think. Yeah, you know, and I think most military are in, and for good reason, they are s yeah, the the bias towards one way or the other certain things is you know, the bias towards looking upon their own country favorably, uh you know, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that there may not be great skies sometimes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, it's I think you're better off sort of learning it after. Yes, and also for myself, certainly, I I I've spoken about this in the past. I think it's dangerous, which is probably why it's discouraged, almost certainly why it's discouraged, to go and and try and understand the why are we in Afghanistan? Why are we going to Iraq? Okay, we're going to Iraq, for example. Okay, I'm a private soldier. Let's let's have a think about this. Let's let's assess why am I being sent? Do I agree with it? No, you don't want to be, yeah, you don't want to be doing that. Like you may have people who don't want to go, maybe. You know, maybe you may find yourself getting kicked out. Yeah. Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:08

Didn't that happen? That happened a few times though. People who yeah, again, had had um didn't agree with the reasons for you know going to Iraq or Afghanistan for those reasons, it c caused quite a lot of controversy, you know, with um with them and the the military as well, wasn't it? So yeah, I know it's I hear what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that would have been a frit, you know, incredibly hard thing to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:33

It'd become even hard uh it's become even harder over time to uh to to be able to uh to outwardly express your views on something where the overwhelming majority think the opposite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and and uh because the what's the word? Because did you just get chastised, outcast, and and I don't unless you say it should be the case, you know. It should be okay welcome the opposite opinion and go on go from there.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:57

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:58

But saying objective and uh that that impact is just like magnified over recent years. Uh we you know, we were talking earlier about you were talking earlier about Estonia and like they're they're quite reserved and that Scandinavian mindset. I miss those days here. When I was growing up, and relatively recent, you know, when I was relative you know, a bit older, like between 20 and 30 years old, yeah, I'd say. Like, it wasn't normal to ask what your political allegiance was. He he was when I was growing up, yeah, it was considered rude. I remember being taught that by my parents. Like, it's rude to ask. Yeah, yeah. Who did you vote for? It was a rude question. Who the what the fuck is it to you? That's private. Yeah, it's a private, yeah. Because people, because you didn't it's unnecessary information. It's almost like how about you just judge me on who I am and how I interact with you and what I do, as opposed to what you think I care about or my concerns are based on who I put my stamp on the ballot box. Yeah, exactly. That's totally different, though. If you get asked that question, if you decline to answer, that's the problem, though. You know, you'll get chastised for that. What do you mean you won't tell me? Yeah, oh, that means you voted for Trump. That means you voted for Farage or you voted for X, Y, Z. Yeah, normally a right, uh, it's a right of centre thing. Yes, you know, it's like I how about I'm not telling you? Yeah, none of your fucking business. It's yeah, how much do you earn? How much do you take home? Even stuff like that. I don't get enough telling you. Yeah.

unknown 1:15:25

What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:27

It's just not acceptable. You know, it's it's weird now. That's not the case. You're expected to give the information. It's true, and I think that's like social media effect, where people have been encouraged you know, in a variety of different ways. And I mean, I don't mean like uh some sort of nefarious activity to get people to, but the the way social media works is it encourages you to interact with it and put stuff on there about yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:55

Kind of like put personal content on there, positive things to negative things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

So I think it sort of presented this world now where you're expected to be open open about every every aspect of your life. Yeah, every aspect of your life. Yeah. Things that previously would have been I you know, I I'm not I'm not gonna tell you I vote. Very rarely will I tell someone who ever voted for. Very rarely. That's if I've even voted. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Fuck off. Yeah, none of your business. And like why why would you care? Have I done like if you and I get on really well, and you were to uh me, me and hypothetical person, right? And let's say this hypothetical person who I get on well with ask me the question who I vote for, and I answer the question, they don't like it, they decide then to dislike me or think less of me because of that answer. They're the problem. Like, never mind that. Yeah, you're the problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:45

Exactly. You know, I've I've got friends across like all parts of the political spectrum, you know, and I see it as a as beneficial because I can then take, you know, like, well, this person has voted for this party, or this person has got this perspective based on this life experience. And what I can do is it makes me a better person because I can then map it and say, well, this person had this upbringing, or this person came from that upbringing, and they vote vote for this now, or they believe in this thing. So yeah, it kind of almost makes you like more worldly wise thing by having people friends and um interactions across the political spectrum. I sound like a journalist or diplomat or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

Yeah. No, no, you may it may it make sense, you know. We've gotten to a position, we've gotten to a position in society, uh here in the UK at least. Probably in America. I've not I've not been there recently. I'll be there next week, but not recently to be able to judge it. We've gotten to a position here in the UK where um the default response to hearing to discovering someone who thinks the opposite of you of XYZ ideology or political thing is bad, and that means they are bad because they don't think like you. That is terrible. It's terrible. Like you shouldn't be like that. What it should be is okay, you think differently to me. I accept that. I don't maybe I don't understand why you hold that position. I don't agree with what you think, but do you know what? We were friends before, or I've respected you before, I respect you just the same now, and we have different viewpoints. Yeah, because what but the thing because the reality is what most people will find is that when they on these like these these buzz topics or these these these not the buzz topics, the uh what do you call it when it's something's uh well it's something's like highly flammable. Yeah, you know, these um I say Tinder topic, but Tinder box is like you know like Tinder.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

Tinder box like yeah, close to setting fire, isn't it? But not actually Tinder's in the dating app.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:54

You know what you find is like that you uh oh shit, I can't wait on that. You've got thinking about Tinder. Um topics are good. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I don't think there's another anyway. Yeah, they they'll they'll they just end up like this this division of people. But when you talk about them, if you were to sit down and talk to someone who's who initially thinks they are you think they're polar opposites to you, the Trump one is a perfect example, right? Trump Biden. Uh or or here in the UK, you can go uh Nigel Farage and fucking care if I can Starmer, he's a bad example because everyone hates him at the minute.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

But Nigel Farage and uh uh what's the the Ed Davy, the um Lib Democrats.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Ed Davy. What you'll find most of the time is if you sit down and talk with someone who is a Ed Davy fan and you're a Nigel Farage fan, say, if you actually sat down and had a discussion with each other, I guarantee that on 99.9 no 90% plus of the general things that if you say, right, write down what you are concerned about or what you care about in the UK. You personally, what is it? If you wrote a list of 10 things, I guarantee you almost all of almost all of those things, most of those things on each list, they would cross over most of the things everybody's aligned on. Because the the things that you care about, they're like these are human natures. Yeah, yeah. I care about uh my finances, I care about my family, I care about my health, I care about education, and I care about um I don't know opportunities for growth and opportunities for growth, I care about employment, and it'd all cross over. You know, and there'd be very few things that you disagree with that are different on the list. Yeah, you know the problem today is because of the way this division is encouraged, and the divisiveness is encouraged because it sells papers, it gets clicks, also it's very beneficial politically because it makes the lecture very predictable. Um the the problem is it gives this false representation everywhere. There's like two signs to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

Total nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:09

Well, I guess maybe like a danger, like to leave it back to what we talked about earlier. I wonder then if it's like people who are in positions of authority or um you know in front of the public, is it is that you advocate for a much more empathetic way of you know having, you know, like we just said then we've got friends who are on the left and the right of the political spectrum, and actually it's really beneficial to me to have friends on all parts of the political spectrum because you learn something from each one of those people. Because, like you said, like there's probably 90% of their their ideas about things and their needs will will cross over, and there'd just be a small part of it that's slightly divergent into you know, like real, real hot topics that people were naturally going to have different experiences with, and that's because it comes back to their own experiences growing up or in in employment or in um you know where they lived and the the the kind of the wider wider thinking around that. So yeah, I you know personally I I think of I think of myself as better and more capable bloke by having friends from all different parts of the political spectrum, and you know, and that's always something I'll I'll say to people as well is like got friends who are very, very left wing and people some friends who are very right wing as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

Yeah, it's it's super important to do that because I think when you have that you but well, number one is you don't exist in an echo chamber, which is super important, that's number one, right? And the importance of not existing in an echo chamber is that if you've got people who think differently to you about whatever, right? It could be sport, Arsenal and Man United is better, you know, but and and and whatever else. Yeah, you know, uh, it means that if you're a sound mind, you'll constantly or regularly be checking with yourself why you think what you think. Yes, I think differently to that person, I really respect that person. I think they're they've got a strong mind, they're they're not a moron, they're intelligent, they you know, I respect them. So why do they think differently to me? Yes, that's the first thing. Okay, okay, and so why do I think what I think? Am I correct in thinking what I'm thinking? Yeah, you know, and sometimes you don't know whether you're correct or not. Yeah, but it causes you to analyze why you think what you think. Again, which most people don't do, Chris. Yeah, they don't. They just they're told what to think, basically. You know, and and the the the politics is a prime example at the minute, uh and has been for a long time, in the way that the in the way that the the politicians are communicating to the public about what they should be caring about and what they should be thinking about from a political point of view. Like conservatives or Labour pick either one of them at the moment, or probably the other parties, but I haven't seen them doing it uh recently. The conservatives put out uh uh it was on I don't know, Instagram, maybe I saw it, or TikTok, maybe I saw it, and it's a it's a video, it's like a I don't know, like 40 or 50 seconds long. The entire the entire video is about Labour, and it is saying how Labour are really bad. This, that, this, that, this, that. The entire thing is about Labour, right? And Labour have done the same recently. They'll individual politicians will do it, and they'll be they'll literally put put it out on the party's own channels. Look how bad conservatives are bang, bang, bang, bang. I don't want that. I don't want your concern to be trying to make the other party look good. Maybe spend your fucking campaign money on something that matters to the public, you know? Like in the past they would do, like uh communicating to the public how to do X, Y, Z better, communicating to the public about problems or ways they can improve themselves, better use than NHS services, how can they make their lives a little bit easier?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:48

You know, or future things that you are doing, what the party is planning to do, what we are doing. Yeah. Now, not throwing stones at the other party. It's like because what they're doing there is they're not trying to get you to vote for them because they're good. They're trying to get you to dislike the other party. What fucking game are we playing? What game are we playing? When people go to the election, I didn't really get onto this, but people when people go to the ballot box, what they should be concerned about is which of their local MPs seems like the right person to do right for you as an individual in your local constituency. Which isn't the case, is it? People go to the ballot box and they go, who is the conservative candidate? Who is the labor? Who is the candidate that is in my party? Yeah I'm gonna put the dick next to him or her. Rather than look at it objectively, which is mental. Totally wrong. Totally wrong.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:39

Yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:43

I feel like I've been in a bubble actually for the last last three years. I lived in Estonia and I was like, I've forgotten about politics actually. I obviously read the paper. I say read the paper. I I look online, read the news, you know, and and again read from different news sources like you know, Sky and BBC and like Reuters and they all that sort of thing, and just take a uh holistic approach of you know kind of what's happening here.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:04

Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:07

We've got a bunch of questions, mate, in the chat. And and some and yeah, and we got some from the the icebreaker left over. Okay. I want to go through those now if that's all right. Yeah, yeah. But I want I I also want to circle around back to hiatus. Oh, sure. Yeah. If that's all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. All right, we're gonna go through this in reverse order because they've been getting thrown in the chat. So um, all right, so the for this this one's for me. Uh if someone if it's from Coke, if someone told me they'd vote for Tommy Robinson or support him, would I cut ties with him? Uh with that person. No, I wouldn't cut ties with that person. No, no, no, I wouldn't. Uh again, case in point, it's now no, have you have your opposite opinion? I'd be like, I'd be wondering what the motivations were, but okay. No, I mean, I'd be trying to understand like why. But no, I wouldn't cut ties. Um exactly all right. If a marine refuses to deploy on moral grounds, how would other marines react? Would they call him a coward?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:08

No, uh you wouldn't what would they do? I mean, I mean it it depends on the circumstance, doesn't it? Like it depends on the on the deployment, on the reasons, it you know, and there could be you know there could be religious means moral grounds, you're gonna say it's not religious grounds. I'll give you an example.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:29

Uh I don't feel this war, I don't feel let's say a Marine is going to deploy to Ukraine. I don't feel we should be in Ukraine, we shouldn't be there, it's immoral. Uh, we should uh we don't need to be there, and uh, we're just uh helping the war go forward when it could be stopped. I don't want to go. What would that what would happen there?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:46

Um I mean obviously they'd take on a case-by-case bite basis, and you know, it'd obviously be flagged up through the chase of chain of command to to understand the you know the the root causes of it, the reasons for it. Um, you know, and all like you know, they they probably wouldn't go to deploy to Ukraine because then it's be then as the as the commander, you know, as a person in charge, you're taking a risk by taking that person out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:10

Yeah. I mean from a social perspective, I'm gonna I would suggest that uh the immediate team, section, platoon, whatever that individual is in, and this would be any frontline unit, they would he would be outcast. You know, be immediately socially isolated because he's he is not part of the group anymore. Doesn't want like if I I'm just thinking, you know, back in when I was serving, if part we were getting ready to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, someone says, I I refuse to soldier, yeah. You don't want to go. Well, when I say outcast, I'd be like, no, not interested by they wouldn't be like they wouldn't be violent, won't be any of that kind of thing. I think that that person would be removed. To wherever, well, they're dealt with in however the system would deal with that situation. But his immediate unit, team, section, platoon, whatever, would be like, Yeah, well, okay, cool. Like immediate social downranking.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:07

As a as obviously an ex-officer, it's you in some ways you want to encourage people to be truthful and honest with you, don't you? And so if there's and and I you kind of hope that actually that that approach rubs off on the people, you know, on your team as well, so that people don't immediately jump to conclusions as to you know, this person can be, you know, isn't part of the group anymore. Um, it's you know, it's something which actually we have to you know dive into the root cause of it. And and as as long as people don't just just make decisions based off assumption and you know, like you said before, make decisions based off assumptions, um, you know, or what the group th group is thinking, as long as they they think objectively about the situation, and I think actually you don't end up with a social separate separation because um, you know, otherwise you'd you'd you'd find it very hard to build group cohesion if you had you know people who are from different ethnicities or different gen genders or different sexual orientations or stuff like that. I think actually um, you know, when you've got a team that've got good cohesion, actually, in some ways, there's it's more resilient because they're they're more accepting of each other. So if one says, you know, I don't think we should be in this for this reason, actually the the the team benefits from it because it forces like an introspective look at things. So it I know but I know I know what you mean when you say kind of like social exclusion, that it probably would happen in certain parts of the Marines as it would happen in any in any part of the military. Um I like to hope that the um I I chose the Marines because I I think they've got a uh an ability to be quite um introspective when it's required, you know, so you could step back and look at the situation and go, actually, right, I think this is the best thing to do, you know. Because, you know, as a Royal Marines officer, you you're you're always at the mercy of so many other experts who are l who are lower ranking than you. You can't you can't go around and just be like, right, everyone, this is going to be the plan, and and ignore the mountain leader or the landing craft operator or the SIG specialist or the you know, all the all the experts around you who are more in, you know, and that happened to me many times, you've got people who are in the room who are much more intelligent than you, you know, who are several ranks lower than you, but they could they could find a problem with your plan at any point. So, you know, so you like you've got to you've got there's got to be two-way respect with them. And I think that's what kind of makes the culture quite unique about the Marines is that you you wouldn't jump to conclusions or make um decisions without fully understanding the situation first. And I realize that that's that's a very diplomatic way of putting it. No, no, make sure that's that's not across the whole Marine. There will be it would be it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:47

You're speaking from the perspective of an officer who would actually take that attitude, and which is which is most but not all.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:53

No, exactly. But bear in mind, half half my career was as a as a as an NCO as well. So I you know, I'm not saying that officers who don't done time as an NCO would be worse off, but you'd like to hope that actually it's a majority of people like that. Okay, I'm rabbiting on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:09

So what do you think was one?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:11

What so I just said to myself, I'm rabbiting on now.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:14

Uh what the stuff is a podcast, mate. I know uh what do you think of people who re Oh hang on. Oh, it's the same question. Right, sorry. Would you be friends with Tony Blair? This is question from Koch.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:28

I'd be friends with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:29

Um would you be friends with Tony Blair? If you met Tony Blair at a party, right? And you ended up being stuck in a room with him, you're chatting, maybe he's a likable guy, and I would suggest he is actually a very personable individual, depends on where you go up. I mean it's would you be friends with him?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:47

Well, I think uh friends is a wrong word. Well, talk to him for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:51

No, no, I'm asking, like, would you after that think, huh, Tony Blair actually seemed alright in that conversation, he was socially okay, we were chatting away. Would you call him again afterwards for a beer?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:02

Well, I I I I I think in in that respect he'd say, yeah, because this, I mean, this guy has got, you know, he's had access to things which we'll never get to hear about. He's had experiences which we'll never get to hear about. And, you know, he's in the news recently for potentially being the leader of a um what a Ukraine peacekeeping force, wasn't he? So, you know, there I bet there's there's I bet he's got some incredible stories and learning that you could you could really benefit from because you know I've never led a country before, and I'm sure most people other haven't probably understand the the the difficulties of it. So yeah, you'd you'd you know if you get Tony Blow in the podcast, you know, he'd be like, of course I would, yeah. Like literally there'd be loads of learning from from this.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:47

He is he is one of the he is uh he is one of the if not the most capable politician that the Western world has seen for one of them, not the best, but one of the most capable politicians of our lifetimes. Yeah, yeah. Just ninja, which is problematic if you don't like the things being ninja at.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:20

Wait, yeah. But but I tell you what, like I bet I bet after spending an hour talking to him, I bet you'd come away and he'd be introspective and he'd be there going I don't know what I think anymore because this this you know could because it's like you know, he's probably quite a charming guy, and you you know, you'd be like, Okay, maybe you didn't agree on some decisions when he was prime minister, but I bet you can wait from it going, I've got a lot of respect for people who've served in such high offices for you know afterwards, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:47

Yeah, and still have and still has the influence and respect. Yeah, you know, it's uh like look at the influence he has on Keystama at the moment, look at the influence he has on Middle Eastern politics at the moment, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, uh, and that's no like he's put himself in that position, he has manoeuvred himself into that position to be able to do that for whatever reasons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some might say that this is the Tony Blair redemption arc. Like, as if what what reason has he got to be meddling? That's the wrong phrasing, to be trying to get a to be a neutral party, which what appears to be almost a genuinely neutral party is the position he's trying to play. Yeah, and he's one of the few people who can take that position um in bringing about a Middle East peace deal. Like he's not in Trump's pocket, he's not in Blair's pocket, quite the reverse, uh uh Starmer's point quite the reverse. You know, so what reasons has he got? And one of the reasons that people are suggesting is it could be the redemption arc, redemption because maybe he has regrets about his time as the PM.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:57

I don't yeah, I know I know he I could I I know what you're thinking with that, but I think also I think to counter that with a I it's not me, I'm generally sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:04

That's not me like saying this is what I think, but not really. Yeah, yeah. But this, you know, it's something it was suggested to me recently. That's just like this is what it could be. Like, holy fuck. No Tony Ble redemption.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:14

Yeah. The devil himself. I think I think from like personal experience, so when I left the military, you don't just you don't just stop being interested in like geopolitics or conflict or things like that. I went back to Afghanistan three times, like Iraq, Mosul, like Afghanistan, you know, you you don't I think it's just it's not a case of you're trying to then redeem yourself. I think actually it's more like you can't just take this big thing out of your life. You know, he's held the highest office in the UK. I don't think it's a case of you can just go then like draw a pension and like drink Yorkshire tea, you know, you know, watching Coronation Street every day. I think it's like when you when you've experienced the things which not many other people experience, I think after that you're you're you can't go back to what you were before because you've been, you know, kind of pulled out of shape, pulled out of position that you're like, I can't sit by and you know watch watch these things without being involved in it somehow. Maybe that's the same as like Obama and you know Bush. Um but you know, some of the British politicians maybe less so, but I think I think it's more of a case of like, I think once you've once you've held that office and you've been there, you don't really kind of go back to just seeking an easy life because you're like, it's so interesting living outside of what is normal or what is you know your your comfort zone in some ways. You know, I I that's why I felt when I when I left the Marines, I did did the world record in London Marathon, you know, again. So in 2016 I ran I ran walked the London Marathon, kind of 45 pound 45 kilo backpack, 100 pounds, which was had never been done before. It set a world record for walking of the wounded. But that was a case of because I've been training for SF for like five kilos is not light. 45 kilos is not light at all. But yeah, but it was because like you get to such a high level of fitness that you're just like, well, I've got to do something with this now because I can't just go into the BBC, drink coffee all day, get fat, and just you know, sit there and process risk assessments all day. It's not really that interesting. Whereas you're like, you've you've done all these things, you're like, well, I know how to carry heavyweight, I know how to kind of like grizz it and endure a bit. So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let this go to waste, I'm gonna use it to to my advantage somehow, which is like you know, doing for charity. I think it's the same with politicians. You don't just do something which build up something which is really hard and then just like drop off. You don't you kind of like you're like, well, what's behind this next curtain? What's behind this next curtain? I could help out here, I can do this thing. You know, in in some ways, I think it's a bit of a burden because then when you when you start to get that more self-understanding, you're just like, I've got all these options ahead of me now, not just the the path which I was prescribed from childhood or from teenage years, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:53

Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Um okay, uh Marine stroke SAS J Cal said senior officers were very unhelpful for SAS soldiers who were accused of murder, later cleared. Do you think that Royal Marine leadership would be different for their soldiers? He claimed Wynne Jenkins, X C O SBS, had SAS soldiers investigated for murder when not justified. So he appeared good at investigating crime.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:31

Um so so just to wanna answer the question then.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:34

So would a would Marines leadership be better at Do you think the Marine leadership would be different for their would do you think Marine the Marine leadership would be different? Okay, so Marine let's go back again. Marine SAS J Cal said senior SF officers were very unhelpful for SAS soldiers. Okay. Senior Special Forces officers were unhelpful for their own soldiers who were accused of murder. Do you think the Marine leadership would be different for the Marines?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:01

Marines. Uh good. That's a good question. I mean, SAS is obviously tri-service, so you can go and be SAS from you know any cat badge, any service. Um and it's basically saying would Marines look after Marines versus better than SF officers have we reportedly not look after. I guess in theory, isn't it? Because you're your your your kind of loyalty is to your parent cat badge. So I guess and that you know that's that's from a theoretical perspective. I guess you know, you know, Marines we look after Marines because you know, there's not many of us, and we know, you know, everyone knows each other. Whereas I guess SF they might go they might do a stint in SF um two years, go back to a parent cat badge and never ever see those troopers again. Or I'm I'm gonna I'm guessing officers-wise, yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm guessing it's probably like a um a a loyalty thing, um, because it's a much it's a smaller room, you know, Marines is a smaller room versus um you know SAS.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:56

Oh well I don't know, it's a special case, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:01

I I pff Yeah it's like again, it's trying to compare apples and pairs of the yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:05

There is different political influence and and pressure and uh uh and governance on SF, isn't there? And there's a yeah, it's hard to say. It's also hard to say without having been in there experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:16

Well, exactly, yeah. I've never been badged, never never been in that environment with okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:21

Having been hospit another question from Cook, having been hospitalized, how has it changed how you'd treat someone you knew who was hospitalized? Are there any behaviours from loved ones uh sick people that's actually unhelpful?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:42

Yeah, I think I wonder if he's talking about so so I wrote a blog about after when I was in the hospital. So I kind of I found it really useful to like therapeutic to actually document the experience. Um and I wrote uh like a 10,000-word article for Climbing magazine, I think, on this. Um, one of the things I said to them was that actually I I my experience, I've I've realized that um one of the worst things you can do to somebody who's in hospital is ask, How are you? Um and it sounds uh I'll put into context because I know it sounds quite ludicrous from so you imagine you say you're in hospital and this this literally happened to me. So I know you know, they're in hospital, my legs there flipping, hanging off, my my you know, special leg hanging off, and people they're coming and say and they say, How are you? Now, as a bloke, you're kind of presented with two options. You either make light of the situation, you know, and uh and mask it, you know, you cover it in misdirect, or you say, I don't know, man, this is actually a pretty shit. I've got my flipping legs hanging off here, and you know, like got some bleeds on my brain, I'm not even sure what day it is. You know, so you kind of you either do two things, you either go super, super um honest, or you go, you know, super misdirecting, don't you? And I think the us military types, we do the set we do the the first one as we misdirect, we make light of the situation. Whereas in actual fact, when you've been sat in hospitals for f for three months, you know, and that's I was in hospital for three months on hospital food that's day in, day out, three months. Yeah, day and out, yeah, three months. Um, you know, not sure about if my my running career would ever take off again, you know. Um and and or what my future would look like. Um, you know, you kind of you're you there's times when you're like, do I tell, do I say the truth? This like this is actually pretty gash, you know, it's pretty pretty rubbish. Or do you just you just say, well, actually, people expect me to be upbeat about it and uh and kind of you know hide it away somewhat? So what I realized is that actually by but you you can be you can ask the say you can get the same output by saying by dancing around the subject and using your social intelligence to to gauge it. So if you you know, for example, like if you say, Oh Chris, do you see the weather today, or do you s do you read about the football or the rugby, the this or that and the other, and you and you kind of look at their response and they go, Oh yeah, it's very rubbish, wasn't it? And you ask some more questions and you see their their spirit is quite downbeat. You can gather that they're not having a good time without having to ask them, Are you having a, you know, how how are you? You know, because you're then not put put pushing them to lie or misrepresent the truth to them. Because that in itself is like a as blokes, we don't like to, especially veterans, we don't like to misrepresent things, we don't like to to not tell the truth. You know, we're we're very honest people, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:25

And also don't and also we don't like to s to to admit when we're not doing great. 100% because that is a that we in our heads we're like that is because if you seem like you're not doing it, as in your morale is low, then you are less capable. Exactly. You are less ready, you're less resilient. It's a weakness thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:44

Exactly, exactly. So you so you're you're making you're putting a uh you're putting the person under difficult um circumstances because you're either you're either doing a societal expectation violation or you're doing a cultural violation, which is uh you don't say when you're having a hard time. Um but then you also equally you don't like to misrepresent or lie about how you are actually doing. So you're putting you're basically putting that person in like a would you rather have a punch in the balls or a kick in the face, you know. So it's like just just don't even ask them. Just talk about something that is safe, is uh, you know, it's over here, you know. So you can talk about the rugby or talk about the sorry, I'm away from the microphone. Talk away from the rugby, talk about the weather, talk about a safe topic, and then use that as like the vehicle, the bridge, to then say, Oh, well, actually, Chris seemed pretty fed up in uh, you know, his tone of voice was low, he wouldn't maintain maintain eye contact. Um, he didn't smile once, you know. Actually, I can gather he's probably having a bit of a hard time here in hospital, so but I don't have to ask him to say, Oh, Chris, how are you doing? And he's like, Oh, it's just awesome, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:48

There is a flip side to that. There is a flip side to that, and it is a lesson that you know that you will know that I I know uh learn it the hard way, uh, and I know from experiencing others like this. And that flip side is that if for whatever reason you aren't very good, you're not in a good place, for whatever reason, and you get asked that question, uncomfortable, the answer that you give needs to be honest. The answer needs to be honest. If it is, and and the combat indicator is if it's uncomfortable to even be asked that question, there's an issue. Yeah, yeah. And there are very few circumstances where being honest is going to be a problem. Whether that's in the workplace, whether that's down the pub, whether that's in the gym, whether that's bumping into a friend on the street. Yeah, yeah. I I it is ingrained in me now. Uh if I get asked that, and I'm not very good. Yeah, yeah. You know, and which is rare for me. Like my not very good these days is a lot of stress on a particular day, or I'm really like super tired. You know, it's it's nothing like I have had previously, which is literal, you know life or death stress. Chronic anxiety, depression, all these things, you know, and and I don't have that anymore. But it's ingrained in me now because I spent so long misdirecting or bullshitting when I answered the question, which meant that for so long the my situation was able to get worse and worse and worse and worse because no one knew, very few knew, you know, then then now it's ingrained. You've got I I answer honestly. Yeah, yeah. I have got no qualms about doing it, you know. Again, and these are for me, it's minor things these days. It's like fucking, I'm I've had a hideous week. I'm really stressed, my concentration level's gone, my anxiety is horrendous, but you know, I'll be all right. I know why it is, I'll be all right. You know, so if you get asked the question, answer honestly. It it it does no harm. Yeah, it only does good. Only does good.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:54

My my my rewards that would be um if if say the person you're the person who's asking the question, they at some point they come to a crux where they're like, okay, I've spoken about the rugby, I can see this person's got like a low mood, they're avoiding eye contact, their voice, you know, voice is kind of shaking. Is that it's then it's a it's a good point, you know, you then you could ask, say, mate, like how how are things? How you how you doing? You know, is it I'm not saying necessarily miss like don't ask the question altogether, but put it in sequence in terms of use a safe a safe topic first, use that then to see, right, you know, and if and if so and so comes back and is you know um upbeat about it as well, you don't even probably might not even need to ask the you know how are you? It's more of a case of don't ask the how are you as the first thing, put it in sequence in terms of safe topic, um safe space, and then be like, mate, how's you know, how how are things? You know, just just not the open gambit of like, mate, how are you doing, in case that person is um predisposed to saying, oh yeah, you know, legs hanging off, yeah, hops of food is rubbish. Yeah, but then you know the mask is but yeah, I I I know what you mean. Like it needs to be a um a question that is asked as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:08

Yeah. And the other barrier to giving the honest answer is you don't want to fucking talk about it. Yes. I don't want to say I ain't good, and then have the Spanish Inquisition. Yes, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. You know? So it's like this is how the this is the perfect interaction, right? How are you doing? Not good. I'm not I'm just having I'm not good at the minute. Do you want to talk about it? No. Okay. Okay, that's I mean that's and then you then you talk about something else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Just that little thing. It's it is a positive that they've said that you said I ain't good. Yeah, and then you've got the person that says I ain't good. I mean, they maybe if if they're not good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you you don't push it. Do you want to talk about it? No. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know, because they either want to offload or they don't. That's it. That is it. It's the interaction. Yeah. So just be honest with it and don't be afraid to say, I don't want to fucking talk about it. But thanks for asking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm fine. You don't need to worry about me, you know. And if that was me having that conversation with someone, let's say, you know, if I was having a conversation with you, Chris, how are you doing? I'm not good. Okay, do you want to talk about it? No. Oh no dramas. What's going down with them? What have you been up to? How's hiatus? How's Chance of Adventure? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I would leave that conversation. I would get straight on the phone. This is what I would do and go bags. I'd ring bags, you know, because I know mutual, close mutual stuff. I've got bags. Just FYI. I was bumping to Chris. FYI. He's not great, mate. Yeah, it doesn't seem great. He's a bit low. I asked him anyone as he said he's not great, didn't want to talk about it. I'm just letting you know. Yeah. Do me a favor, don't go calling him right now or texting him, because he'll know I've called you. I'm just I'm just letting you know as a friend and you're close to him. That's it. That is it. And I've done that. I, you know, and it's not a problem. And quite often, what not quite often, sometimes what happens. Is this actually a recent interaction within the last year where I became quite concerned about someone because of I won't explain why, yeah. Uh and I rang someone who knows them, and I don't know this person well, I but I know they're close to them, and I said the same thing. I said, I've got I've got a concern here, yeah. Uh but I don't know how to approach it with the person, yeah, because and there's reasons why. Uh and the person who I spoke to gave me some additional context. The person goes, Oh no, this is this is what's going on. That's ah, okay. I don't need to be worried. But I was glad because my concern then was not I'd not like left it alone, yeah. I'd raised it with someone else and gone, okay, cool. But back to it, just fucking be honest, guys and girls, just be honest, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:36

I I think probably just to um let me give some more context um to it. It's more like if you're if you're then going to see if you're going to see somebody in hospital and you can see they're probably not having a good time, is is like if your leg is literally hanging off, you know, and it's like it's like Chris, your leg's pointing out when it's half the length that usually it should be. You know, you probably don't need to guess, or you maybe let's say, mate, how are you doing? You know, just not asking. Yeah. But but you know, like context-specific, I guess. Like you like you gave such that was a really good example of that. Is you wouldn't go around treading on eggshells around mates, all your mates, just because you're worried about um hurting their feelings or something like that. It's more like when it's kind of obvious where it's like this person's literally in a hospital, you know, you know, with a after after two months, it's like I'm probably having a shit time, but I can at least I can kind of get on to that through a sequence of questions rather than the opening gambit. Um and that's my experience, but yeah, I I I like your your um your position about checking on your mates as well. I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:35

Yeah, I find what I find in it as well is that so I'm really fortunate now, and it's a lot of us due to the the the podcast and talking about these things with people like yourself. And I've got to this, you know, I've got a great circle of friends who you know, these questions are asked, and we're honest. We meet up for a brew or doing whatever just normal stuff we do, and if and we'll ask, because it is a normal thing to say. Satany, mate, how are you doing? It's literally the second question, it's the second thing we say all the time. How are you doing? You know, and we answer honestly with each other, yeah, yeah. And and most of the time it's fine. Sometimes it's you know, tough, tough week at work, or I'm worried about this, or blah blah blah blah blah. It it does not degrade what I think about that person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What it actually does, it's the reverse, it elevates them in my perspective, because I think they've been honest with me. Yeah, yeah. That means they're honest with me. It in my eyes, it's more it shows more integrity. Yeah, it shows it's a it tightens up the bond between me and them. It means I've got someone I value and is trustworthy in my circle. Yeah, yeah. And they think the same about me because they aren't they're answered honestly.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:43

And when you do it like that, it just becomes the norm of conversation. Yeah, all of us ignore, but you just got this closer, tighter bond, and it's a really easy way to sort of tighten up those social relationships. Really easy way. And uh again, we think we think that we're gonna our friend, especially men, are gonna think less of us because we had a tough week, or we had a tough year, or had a tough decade. Yeah, you know what I mean, or or going through a breakup and it's like mine is really down, or what or you snap your fucking leg off or whatever. It doesn't, he just you know, he just increases the respect, he just doesn't honestly integrity because the communication is more open. You're not hiding anything. Yeah, you know, it's um anyway. Okay, we've got some we have got more questions from the you have time a little bit, yeah. Yeah, good. Yeah, okay, cool, cool. We don't we won't be much longer. Uh we've got some more questions here, which we didn't get through on the icebreaker. So David from David. Um second. You've led and endured some incredible adventures. What do you think adventure offers people today in terms of mental resilience and rediscovering purpose?

SPEAKER_02 1:54:55

Good question. I reckon this is David Love who's asked this question. You definitely need to get on the podcast as well. You reckon who? David Love. It's I reckon it's David. He's he's uh he's RM a mate from the RMP. Um it's David. But it's David Fell.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:08

I know these people are you certainly get David Love on the podcast at some point. Yeah, yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:13

Um okay, so I was like, oh that sounds like a uh uh so can you say the question again one more time? So it's what does adventure give you?

SPEAKER_00 1:55:21

Well, you've led and endured some incredible adventures. What do you think adventure offers people today in terms of mental resilience and rediscovering purpose?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:28

Uh so I think um in terms of rediscovering purpose, it does, it does, it does give you a lot because all of a sudden you're put in a place where you can't you you can't operate it without learning new skills, you know, as and you can't you know it takes you out of your comfort zone, you have to do things differently, you have to you know learn learn new things to to keep going and and keep yourself you know alive in some circumstances. So it I think it it kind of proves to you that you're capable of doing things. It's it's um reminds you that you know you're not dead yet, you're you're able to do big things, which then gives you self-confidence, it gives you self-belief. That self-belief comes out in you know when you're talking to other people, it comes out in when you're put under more difficult circumstances as well. So talking in public in public in front of a group, um you know, taking it having to take a uh an alternative or sorry divergent opinion to uh you know a group, for example, like we've like we were talking about earlier. Um I think I think it's it's also as well is it's something that is it's non-political, so it's not something which can cause divide. Um and also as well is like say say if you you you come from it's something which crosses over um socio socioeconomic boundaries. So one of the reasons why I was so interested in Afghanistan was was that these kids were were they were really interested in obviously riding bikes, doing parkour, or doing sports, which you could literally connect them to another group anywhere else in the world and have things in common. And what's that that's done is that that's given them a relationship outside of their home country and a connection to somebody else somewhere else on the planet. That's why I think adventure and and sports are so important, is because actually it's it transcends like gender, sexual orientation, um, you know, where you grew up, you know, the the how much money you earn. You know, obviously some sports are more expensive than others, but you know, as a as a basis, like adventures and sports actually can be a really good way of creating you know new opportunities, new connections, um, they can overcome social barriers that have you know maybe actually just exist in your mind. So like so so many things. Like you know, I I plan to be you know doing bikepacking races for like you know for ages now, you know. It's not it's not something that's gonna disappear from you know, because I definitely can't go climbing mountains because my family would kill me and I'd be less or you might kill yourself. Or I might kill myself, yeah. That's that's a dangerous one. Yeah, I'll probably have it. I could forbidden another another trip.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:03

Um, okay, so uh one from David again, not David Love, David Fell. Shout out to David Love, though, everyone. Uh all right, so this is actually hiatus oriented. So I need to thank you on hiatus actually, because um, which we're gonna we'll cover uh uh at the end of this, uh which isn't too long away. Uh mate, the the work that you've done with hiatus for, for example, Force of Barbarians. Yeah. You know, the Force of Barbarians design work. Um on your laptop there. On the laptop, yeah, on the back of the laptop. Um, and uh there's a couple of other things you've been involved with. Also, the you know, the the the general support that you give, which is which is based on your experience and knowledge and expertise, hiatus and designs and tech orientated. Uh I've been at the rugby last week at the at the Royal Hospital Chelsea taking the photography, by the way. I'm getting hounded for that photography. Sorry, I'm yeah, I'm no no no, they think it's me. They're um so uh no, thank you for all that. It's like it's it is it is much appreciated, you know, and um it's great what you do. It's uh it's something I am shit at that kind of work. I'm getting someone like you on my uh on my on my list of contacts and go, Chris. Well more on when it comes to this stuff. Uh the question from David is um okay, hiatus digital design. Hiatus digital designs, digital tools for defense and dual use sectors. I feel like he's plugged you there. He's plugged you there. He's a good guy, anyway. I think we need that again. This organic sentence. Listen to this. This organic sentence, David Felt. Hiatus, digital designs, digital tools for defense and dual use sectors. You haven't paid him for that, have you? How has your operation so there is a question? How has your operational experience shaped the way you approach solving problems for others through tech?

SPEAKER_02 1:59:58

Oh, good question. I mean it's we we we don't make tech per se, we use obviously design like um like you know, the like brand design, web design, um design you know design things to be used by the public. Um in terms of kind of how's the experience, you know, when you come from the military, you know the end user, as in you you can imagine the paratrooper, the marine, the the you know, the the soldier, the logistician, engineer. You you can imagine like when they're when they're seeing a brand, for example, like what are they thinking of that? Is it bland? Is it interesting? What's the what's the semiotics behind that? You know, and and when you say semiotics, that's like the pre-existing ideas that go with things. So symbiotics. Semiotics. Semiotics. Semiotics, yeah, yeah. So it's like a um it's a branch of psychology. So it's basically the meaning behind symbols. So if you if you look at your forces barbarians um logo, for example, is that forces barbarians. If you said it as a concept, people would be like, what is that? Is that like a um, you know, what is a force force barbarian? Because there's a rugby ball instead of the O, and it's on fire, you know, it's like rugby people would know, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:01:11

But there's the barbers. Yeah, they have a guess. But no one else would know.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:14

So exactly, yeah, yeah. So people outside of the sport wouldn't know, and that's the semiotics behind choosing something like barbarians as a term because it's a very rugby-specific term. Um, so it's understanding this the psychology that goes into why you think what you think. And again, it goes back to that introspective opinion of a position of having, you know, always questioning, well, why do I think this about this thing? And so having a uh that that friends from all across the different political spectrum actually helps me be a better designer because of that, because I can think of, you know, well, well, if I choose um, you know, this colour scheme to go with this brand, you know, what what do people think of that colour scheme when they see it? You know, case in point, olive green, you know, olive green, you know, is military, isn't it? You know, so if you if you if you have like a veteran-owned company come to you and say, we want uh um you know, King Dance is a colour palette for our website, you'd be like, Do you want it olive green? They're like, No. Do you want it creative tan? No. Do you want it black? No. Good. That's you know, all these are three cliches in over the veteran owned sector. It's like, you know, security companies, you know, how many security companies you know that have don't have a shield in their logo because it's the the overused idea of what what denotes um security, a shield, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:28

So it's a so you have to understand um the meaning behind symbols and where they come from and how they're used, and obviously it's a cliche. So long way, long-winded way of saying it is that if you can design, if you know and in if you know a sector, i.e. defence sector, security sector, space sector well enough, you can then say when people come to design their website or their logos or their branding or their tone of voice or their brand, you know, you can say, Well, I know you probably want to ask me to use a shield and logo, and I'm gonna say don't because then uh everyone else uses a shield and logo. You're probably gonna ask me to use Curty Tan, olive green, or dark grey in the in the colour palette. Probably better to avoid that unless you want to be confused for everyone else. So I guess a long way of saying it is that you you understand the end us in the audience better than other people from from having been in the military.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:19

What are the what are the like what are the like sectors and like industries are there or think where they have the same goddamn thing in the logo all the time? There must be some of those, like estate agents with a house in the logo.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:31

Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's the it's the the first thing that springs to mind. So it's like so if you're a designer and you and you you have like a client comes to you and says, Can you design my website? And they're a um uh I know coffee company, for example, you'd be like, they don't have a logo, they don't have a a brand portfolio, so they don't have like brand guidelines, they don't have a colour palette or anything like that. You say let's make sure we don't use any cliches in there because you're not gonna stand out if you're just ridden with cliches, which you know, and they should know their industry well enough to say yes, or they say the cliches to you, like don't use this colour, don't use that colour, don't use this picture or this symbol or that thing. Um if if they come to you, but thing is, if they come to you and they say use all these cliches, you could be like, You're not gonna be a company in like six to twelve months' time because you're gonna run out of funding because no one's going to notice you in the sea of other brands that are exactly the same. So there's that there's a danger of danger of blending in too much, yeah, as well as there's a danger of standing out too much. If you stand out too much, then people go, they take notice of you for the wrong reasons as to this is like a rubbish designer who's made this uh I don't know coffee brand or apparel brand look like a completely different industry. And so there you people walk past it and go, That's not for me, that's not been designed for me because it's not one of these colours or one of those shapes or styles. So there's actually believe it or not, there's lots of psychology that goes into design, you know, design of branding of logos of digital experiences that means you've got to understand these things. I'm I'm doing a second master's degree at the moment in in human factors, which is basically understand all the all the different forces which act upon us as human beings and how we interact with tech, you know, so you can design better experiences because we're gonna be work we want to be designing for space agencies in the next 10 years. That's the kind of the the the place we're aiming for.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:31

Yeah, you see, yeah, no, mate. I mean, you see a lot of you see people uh you you do see it a lot, you know. When you when people hear about, for example, a charity that has spent I don't know, tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds or dollars on a rebrand as an example, and they go, why they spent that much? That is a waste of money. And you go, well, well, maybe not. You know, when you think about the logo, logo that when people think brand, they think logo. When you think about the brand, when I'm talking about brand, I'm talking, you know what brand is. Yeah, logo is brand. It's the it's the it's the it is the personality, it is the it is the presence you want to present to people. Yeah, yeah. It is what you want, how you want the your organization to be displayed, yeah. Shown. I don't mean like visually displayed, I mean that's what you know, you're trying to show the values and standards and everything about your organization. That is the brand, everything about it, you know, and uh and it you spend that much money and you think, well, it fucking makes sense. Or let's say they spend a lot of money just on a logo change. You go, yeah, well, it kind of makes sense, especially if the logo is something that their potential customer base or whoever they're interested in hitting, they're gonna see the logo a lot for whatever reason. Spend the money. Yeah, because that is a hook. It is one of the hooks that is gonna draw people in. And it the cost of getting it wrong is often much larger than the cost of getting it right. Yeah, yeah. You know, so you understand, right? And the psychology makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:05

Yeah. I mean, so so what you said there about like the your your logo is your is your the first thing that people see. So if if your logo's sending people to the wrong place, you know, or people walk past it and they'll go, Oh, that's not for me, that's not that's not aimed at millennials in their mid-40s who live in Western Europe or something like that. You know, it's it's sending them the wrong place. Um, but equally as well, is when you say about um companies or charities or organizations that spend hundreds of thousands of pounds, they're not they're not um you know, they're they're not paying for something just because it's cost that. They're actually paying a company that spent probably months and months and months doing focus groups and doing version, like I can't tell you, like begin to tell you the amount of versions of logos you do to get it absolutely right because it's got to work in especially like the bigger companies as well. Because if you get it wrong, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. If you if you get it wrong, then people will up no look at Jaguar, for example, the rebranding. I'm still kind of on the fence, like, you know, I was like, is that a good thing? I don't know. Um, you know, it happens in the US recently with like a 150-year-old company that was like a restaurant, and I think they they took uh was it like a a monk or something out of the logo and it caused absolute uproar. And I was like, it's literally just like one small part of the logo, but it caused you know really it may not be a monk, it was it was something to do with a like a food and beverage brand. Okay, and they were I remember there's a person sat sat there on a piano, or was he sat there or like on a doing something? If you if you you google it, it's not a it's not a brand we we have here in the UK, yeah. Um hence I've never heard of it before, but it caused absolute uproar. And then they basically they basically reverse decision and put put it back in again. Um okay, I can't find it. Yeah, you might take a while to find it or ask ask AI, but yeah. Um anyway, so so what you're doing is you're not paying, you're not paying somebody who's literally gonna pull an idea out of the air and go, this is what your logo should look like. You're paying for them for literally months of practice and iterations and versions um to get to the final point where they say this is what your logo should look like, because we've tried a hundred other variations of it and they don't work on your social media, they don't work on your print, they don't work on your website, they don't work in this, they don't work in that, they don't work in, you know, and they'll and they'll show you all the if they're a good design agency, they should say we've tried all these versions and none, you know, none of these work, you know, in practice, and they should have tried it out, you know, they printed stuff out and they tried it on on digital versions and stuff. There's um a client this morning said a really good quote to me, and I'll I'll I'll probably end up misreading it, but he said, never trust an architect that gives you the plan as soon as you ask for it. Um, and I was like, it makes a lot of sense actually, is that if you're paying somebody for a logo, you're not paying them for the logo, you're paying them for them to carry out a process which ends up in a logo. So you have to kind of make sure that you you actually take into account the time that's gone into getting to that logo, not just a case of you know, if you're going to buy a logo, go on Fiverr and and buy a logo, you know, try it out, see if it works. And if it works, great. If it doesn't, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:12

Well, that's I think the confusion people have when they see like these headline values and they go, Why do you spend all that money on a rebrand? Yeah. But people immediately think they changed the fucking logo on the website. That's what they think. Yeah, when in actual fact, logo and the website are probably the least complex parts of that puzzle. Yeah, they're just indicators at the end of the part of, you know, the brand is at so much more to get the brand right. It's super important because you'd like you say you get it wrong. It's uh it's major.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:35

But but then also as well, is is it in defense of that, you might so you say like you've you've commissioned a rebrand, and all they've done is they've I don't know, taken an eye out, or you know, they they've changed the logo very slightly. If you look at look at Google and you look at Apple, you look at big companies, if you look at how much their logo has evolved over decades, you'll see it hasn't moved very much at all. But the cost of it has taken flipping lows because they all have looked at the okay, what's the alternative of if we change the Google, the font in the Google logo? You know, is it people it says to people we're not confident in our brand, or it says that we're too confident in our brand, or it says that we're, you know, we're doing it in a different direction. So that you've got lots of lot, you know, a brand does something, people interpret it so many different ways. So actually, what you have to do is you want to take each of those different meanings from the potential outcomes and say, right, do we want to tell people we are changing our font because we're moving into the tech sector? Because if you use a sans serif font, you might denote tech sector. If you use a heritage, you know, you want to be seen as a heritage brand, you use a serfed font. So you have like obviously the little curly bits on the end of the lettering. Like it it's it's never as simple as just a case of change of font, change a colour, change uh an icon, because the bigger company you are, the more people will read into that as a signal of we're changing sectors or we are downsizing or we're growing or we're we're moving our focus or we're doing this. On for startups, it's quite easy because nobody knows who you are anyway. It's this that it's the enterprise that then have to say this costs them you know like hundreds of thousands of pounds because a whole team of people have gone there and gone, what if people perceive it as this? What if they perceive it as that? What if this this focus group perceives it as this? And not very interesting, I realized, but it's interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:24

I partly because it's the psychology aspect of it as well. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:29

There's there's load, like yeah, loads of psychology in in branding and um okay, we've got one more question.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:36

Uh this one is from Jonathan. It slipped through the cracks. Jonathan is not a platinum patron, right? Uh however, I got the uh I got the setup wrong on the Substack post where I was inviting questions. It should have only gone on to uh Platinum. Stroke founding members and I saw his question drop in. I said, I don't recognise him as a platinum patron, but he got the question in there, so I'm gonna ask it anyway before he's managed to change the settings. Well done, Jonathan, for slipping through in there. Okay, with the many challenges and experiences you've had, have you found your psychological strength has developed from your physical strength, or has your physical strength developed as a result of your psychological strength? Which one has influenced each other more, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 2:13:18

Good question. I reckon it's probably cyclical in terms of say your your physical strength increases as a youngster, you know. Like I was what I was in Baghdad in 2006 and I was literally running around compounds and you know in the in the green zone thinking that actually I'm you know I'm getting I'm getting a bit stronger and a bit faster now, actually. And I never I never thought the Marines was something I'd ever go for. I remember seeing uh like Tim Vincent on Blue Peter do the Tarzan course, and I was like, that looks nails, I'd never be able to do that. And then what happened, you know, then and then you kind of grow up a bit, you start training a bit more. I did the CP course within the RMP in the quite early on in my career, and then that actually started to break down some barriers. So I was like, huh, maybe I maybe I could do uh you know the commando course, you know, and then you do the commando course, and all of a sudden you're like, well, maybe I should go think about SF, you know, and like you know, how far does this go? And I think it's a case of as it's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? You do something and then you're like, oh, I could do that all the time. And then it's like, well, I could project the same belief onto what like if I could do that thing, I could do this thing, you know, and and before you know it, you're you know, rowing oceans, you're climbing mountains, you're uh running across deserts or doing stupid things, and you're in hospital with a wonky leg at the end of it. But then you're you know back on your bike again because you're like, I can't sit here with a wonky leg for the rest of my life, I can I can at least ride a bike and be with you and not terrify friends and family.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:50

I do think though, so I mean on the subject of the same question there, I do think though that if you are someone who's you want to increase your physical strength like in inverted colours, and let's say that's resilience, let's say that's your ability, your stress, you know, so you anything like that to do with psychological capability. Yeah, yeah. Um the quickest and easiest way to do that, if you're not already doing it, uh and and I think people who need to do this aren't already doing this stuff, is is a physical challenge. Yeah. And when I say challenge, um, I just want to clarify there. I don't mean, for example, do what Chris is doing, go on an ultra. When I say challenge, I mean doing anything more than you're doing now, and that puts you out of your comfort zone, even marginally, even marginally. And I've done this in the past, marginally, where psychologically I've been really uh weak, yeah, um, and and compromised, you know, take that word whatever you want to take for it, but it means exactly what you're thinking, uh and I wanted to try and help myself. And the thing about physical activity is that there's nothing stopping you doing it. Yes, yeah, nothing stopping you doing it. Now, again, the physical activity, all it has to be is more than you're doing now. If you're a sit on your couch all day, literally, if you're someone who sits on your couch all day and you're fucking depressed, or you don't feel like you're very resilient, you deal with stress really poorly, uh, and you know, and you're in bad habits, you want to change the way your life is, but you haven't got the will strength to go and do it, all you need to do is do something more than you're doing now. Yes. So if you're a couch couch all day playing video games and doing whatever and go to the pub and drinking, that change in physical activity and putting yourself out of your comfort zone is you go for a walk tomorrow, because you haven't done that, you don't do that normally. You just go for a walk. That could be five minutes. If it's five minutes more than you're normally doing, there you go. Yeah. And doing that puts you in a position to do more the next day. Yes. Just that little bit of so much you will know this question, there's so much psychology, psychological positives that go into doing this. Yeah, yeah. Right? It's not about the activity you do and how strenuous it is relative to what anyone else is doing.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:17

It's all about how much it is relative to you, no one else. Yeah, you do more tomorrow than you did today. Yeah, it is easier the day after tomorrow to do more than you're gonna do tomorrow. It's like little baby steps up, which is exactly my experience in the past. And this is lessons I learned after being in the reg. Yeah, you know, afterwards, where you don't learn these things really, you're just doing what you're told to do. You're going through the motions of the your physical fitness and your which builds up your mental resilience. Yeah, and there was a question earlier about you know transition and now, and and that all gets destroyed for a lot of people when you leave. And so, physical for me, it is my go-to. I I I put a lot of work and effort into regular fitness that puts me out of my comfort zone in many, many different ways because of how much of an impact it makes on my psychological resilience. Yeah, yeah. I haven't because of injury last weekend and I've been I've had a mega stressful, busy week. I've done nothing for the last five days, right? Literally no exercise since Monday. Uh Sunday's the last time I exercised. Monday choose. I know, like I'm getting I'm getting a bit, I was gonna say jittery. What I mean is I'm I'm I'm pissed off at myself because I haven't done it. I understand why I haven't done it. I could have done some stuff around work around the injury, but I haven't. Now I know that I'm if something super stressful was to happen later today or tomorrow, I know I wouldn't cope with it as well as I would if it was last week. Now, when I say as well, it doesn't mean I'm gonna crumble. I just mean it would affect me a bit more. Yeah, yeah. I'll get a bit more stress. Maybe I'll have a little bit of a bit of a moment for like a couple of minutes. Yeah, oh man. You know, it's so you know, after this interview, no, I'm gonna go to the gym in a bit, and I haven't got much time this afternoon. I'm gonna go for 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah. I normally do an hour and a half, two hours in the gym. I'm gonna go for 20 fucking minutes because that's all I've got in me today, time-wise, but I'm gonna go and do it. And that 20 minutes will get me right back to the spare headspace I was last Sunday or Monday, Tuesday. You know, it will put me right back there. It's only 20 minutes. My only aim is to get a sweat on. Yeah, I don't even know how I'm gonna do it. Well, you maybe you go on the running machine. I fucking hate the running machine.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:23

You think about all the all the times in the reg, like, you know, when you say I've only got 20 minutes, think about how horrendous 20 minutes is when you got a PTI over you and it is like, you know, I I remember I remember um one course that was they said the thing was if you don't think you can sweat in a swimming pool, think again. And I was like, it's the same thing, it's like you know, you can 20 minutes could you know it's relative, isn't it? 20 minutes could be I've only got 20 minutes, but it's cause it'd be like that wasn't even 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:52

Oh my god, you know, and it's like again, like you it's so easy to to do to visit the physical activity. Yeah, yeah. Because you could say to the same go, okay, well, I want to increase my my psychological resilience. Okay, well, do stuff to test your mentally. It's really hard to test yourself. It's really hard to challenge yourself mentally. What do you do? Read a fucking book that you don't know. That's really hard to do. If your mind's not in a decent place to be able to focus on stuff or even have the motivation to read, or what I don't know, pick a fucking psychological thing. It's really difficult. But once you start the act, a physical activity, the mere act, the mere start of doing it, and you start the motion with the wheels in motion, your heart rate elevates a little bit. That starts you feeling better. Holy shit, I've started it. Yeah, yeah. I've going. I'm not a test 10-minute walk I didn't do yesterday. I feel better. I feel good.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:39

I mean, that's that's literally quick. It's that quick. That's what I'm gonna do this weekend, is like literally 10-minute walk. Well, no, no, like literally, I've so so so like like because I'm in London with literally with just you know social clothes right now. I haven't brought any physical over with me apart from some trainers. I'm just like, I'm basically just gonna go out and walk this weekend, do and I did 20 miles um two Saturdays ago, and I'm like, right, I'm gonna do 22 miles on Saturday or Sunday, you know, because it's like it's because it'll take me a long time to do, but it's like you know, being outside, um, I don't all the things I've got with me is literally like trainers and I won't wear you, won't wear jeans, I wear some like jogging bottoms for it. But you know, it's like I don't I don't I don't got a gym while I'm here, I haven't got weights, I haven't got a bike or you know, um any or any fizz gear with me. It's just it's just a case of all I can do is walk. But I'm like, well, actually, doing what walk walking is really good for me because you can you can walk fast, get yourself not out of breath, but you know, gets a heart rate up, and then at the end of it, you know, you can sit sit there in the bath or you can sit there with a beer afterwards and go, I'm knackered, but I've I've earned this and I've I've done away with five days because the last five days I've been working on a design project, literally glued to the computer screen and then trying to do master's work in the evening. I'm like, I've not done any physics week.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:56

It's underrated exercise, right? And these days, to superpower the benefits of a walk, yeah, leave your phone at home. Yeah, right. Honestly, leave your phone at home, go out for even just 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, right? For it superpowers, yeah. Walk is good. Okay, because it because you're walking without intent, you're not walking to the office, you're not walking to wherever you need to would know the shop. You're just walking for you. Yeah, it's literally you time. I'm going for a walk. The only reason is because I want to get outside, I need to go and do some exercise, I need to do something different because I'm in a situation mentally where I go, I'm not, you know, I'm just whatever, not I'm under the weather, or I'm not happy with myself or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Well, give you time. Go for a fucking walk, leave your phone at home. It makes to me, it makes a massive difference. Yeah, yeah. Massive difference. And it is mainly because I'm going, yeah, I have made the difficult decision to give, because normally I walk, I'll do like 45 minutes once or twice a week, right? As in dedicated. Yeah, yeah. But I'm making time for myself, yeah, and that feels good because I've made the right decision. You know, as opposed to let myself be preoccupied by the million and one things that can distract me or or I need to do because of the different things I'm involved with. We're all busy people. Yeah, yeah. It is absolutely a critical thing to build in and so important. It's as important as doing out a 45 minutes at work that you have to do. Your 45-minute walk is as important as that. Yeah, yeah. How are you getting paid for that 45 minutes? Not in cash, you're not, but you are giving yourself a fucking break. Yeah, you're doing the right thing and making yourself better. Totally underrated, totally underrated. Yeah, no, even better. If you've got a partner, do it with your partner, leave your phones at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:39

And and actually talk once, yeah. Yeah, I was just I was just thinking, like, I'd the same same mindset is um when I went out for this this walk a few Saturdays ago. I literally walked from from Chiswick to Twickenham. Because I was like, I think of you know, because it when you start involving um places that you know and and you like and you've got good memories of, you start to tap back into those memories again. So, you know, so I was like, if I walk to Twickenham, I can remember Army Navy games where I've been there with like literally everyone. It's such an epic weekend, and I'm like thinking, you know, you know, we we've absiled from this in the Royal Marines, and we've done, you know, we've seen England play here and all that, you know, all of a sudden you you it takes you from whatever you're dealing with at the time to be like, oh yeah, do you remember that time we did that that thing? You know, and all of a sudden you're away from thinking about work or relationships or other things. You're just like, oh yeah, that that that memory. So I took that same mindset and I was like, right, I'm gonna walk to um to Wandsworth, where the Royal Marines Reserve base is, you know, my last job in the military. I was like, I'll walk there and I'll remember, you know, all the good memories about being in RMR London, you know, and then and walk past Wimbledon's, you know, Wimbledon um tennis ground, you know, and all of a sudden like all these memories come flooding back of like all the things you've done there. And before you know it, you're not you're not stressed about work, you're not stressed about relationships, you're thinking, I I I need to do this thing again in the future, I need to do this again in the future. You start having ideas. That's that's kind of like what it is for me these days, actually, is that walking walking and cycling are really good because it it takes up your your your thinking space enough just to then let new ideas creep in. Um so yeah, as a as a designer, as a creative, actually, it's like fizz fulfills more things than just keeping me mentally sane. It also lets new ideas come into my brain.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:28

Uh that is the questions done, mate. Mike Valance was gonna send in a question, but he hasn't done it, right? Which kind of makes me happy because I can just slate him for it. You know, the few things I can slate Mike for, I'm gonna slate him at this. Didn't send you questions in Mike after I gave you permission to send questions in the post. Um uh but um thank you to Mike anyway, and uh hopefully you'll catch up with him soon anyway. He's but he's he's uh he's overseas at the moment on long-term, long-term deployment to Hong Kong. Yeah, loving living the life, living the life, bankers, mate. You know what I mean? Um but listen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you to all everyone who put the questions in for you. And um again, thanks for mate. It's been a pleasure knowing you. Thanks for coming and giving you time together.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:15

Thank you for having me. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for putting me on the wheelchair. Thank you for running for Tales Adventure.

SPEAKER_03 2:26:20

Um thank you for thank you for seeing off Heath on the uh Tales of England. I said I'd drop that in there because I was like, he's like he showed me the video again. I was like, wow, he read the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:33

No, thank you for lots of things for for getting me back to back to being able to sit here again with you guys.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:37

So I'm glad you're here, mate. Good keep doing the good stuff. Um, how can people contact you or the org or hiatus?

SPEAKER_02 2:26:43

Uh so get in touch with us at uh hiatus.design. Literally the easiest way, www.hiatus.design or hiatus.digital.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:50

H-i-a-t-us.design.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:53

Yeah, we've got that much that much content on the website. So if you just put hiatus design or digital in Google, we'll put the link in the blurb for this.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:00

So yeah, and we can highly recommend you get in touch with Chris for uh brand and design stuff. He does he's done it for me on several occasions, I'm which we should. He's not bad.

SPEAKER_03 2:27:11

Despite being an RMP X RMP, X boot neck, he's all he's alright, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:19

Yeah, let's let's uh catch you again soon, like next week, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:23

Yeah, we'll uh we're pretty sure we'll be anyway for yeah, photographing feebals, don't we?

SPEAKER_03 2:27:27

Right. Nice one.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:30

That's it. If you enjoy this episode, why not become a Heych hour patron? Patrons will get access to all of the episodes before anyone else, they get an advanced viewing of the episodes, and you also get other perks and bonuses. All of the information is on charliecharlie1.com. Just hit the menu item, become a patron. It'll show you everything there, including access to the Hey Chour Discord community and private patron only channels on there. So go to charliecharlie1.com and hit the menu item, become a patron. Easy peasy. Thank you for being a supporter. Subscribe to the channel, and I will catch you on the next episode.