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#273 “The battlefield is a very lonely place in Ukraine.”
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For H-Hour perks, join the H-Hour Discord guild: https://discord.com/invite/KCb54MQNxd and follow H-Hour Hugh on X: https://x.com/HughKeir For H-Hour #273 I sit down with Steve Holland, who shares his firsthand experiences from conflict zones like Gaza and Ukraine. We discuss the complex dynamics between aid agencies, local populations, and militant groups in Gaza, as well as the devastating impact of war on Ukrainian children. Holland provides a vivid, unfiltered account of trench and drone warfare in Ukraine, emphasizing the stark differences from traditional combat. The conversation also explores the psychological resilience required to work in such dangerous environments, and Holland’s humanitarian efforts through his project, Children of Ukraine, to support war-affected kids. This is an eye-opening episode that underscores the harsh realities and human costs of modern warfare.
Steve's fundraising link for his Children of Ukraine initiative: https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/steven-holland-699?utm_term=X2GynXaNE&utm_medium=FA&utm_source=CLThis episode is sponsored by Sin Eaters Guild - sineatersguild.co.uk
Welcome back to Hey Chour. My guest today is Steve Holland. Before we get on to that, uh Steve, uh, before this episode, so the previous episode of this in your podcast app is an icebreaker with Steve. The icebreaker is basically a QA with Steve where questions were submitted for Steve ahead of the podcast recording date by patrons of the podcast. And Steve went through and answered those questions, which he did. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back one and listen to that. It's about 20 minutes long. I highly suggest you do. And then roll into this episode, or you can do it reverse, whichever you want to do. If you want to ask questions uh for guests in future, if you want to uh know what the guest list is for upcoming guests, then become a patron of the podcast, patreon.com forward slash hk podcast or hughia.substack.com or just look at the link in the blurb of this episode. Costs about three pounds, doesn't cost about, does cost from£3.50 a month, do it cheap, and it helps the podcast, sports me. And you can submit questions to put the guest on edge. Give them difficult ones. Like Steve had a few difficult ones there. Uh anyway, on to the podcast. Steve, really glam, really glam we can line this up, mate. Given particularly good, not because you're a good guy, but given that uh your recent experience in no for fuck's sake. I know I'm gonna switch the mics on, don't I? Take two, take two. Welcome back to H Hour. The microphones are on this time when I hit record. Perfect. Uh, the episode before this in your playlist is Icebreaker with Steve. Questions were submitted for Steve by H Hour patrons who got advanced notice of the guest list and they saw Steve on there and went, right, we're gonna hit him with some questions. So skip back in the uh in your playlist if you haven't listened to that episode yet, it's about 20 minutes long, and then roll into this one or do it in reverse. It doesn't matter. If you want to see the future guest list for H hour and submit questions for guests, like Steve was uh subjected to, some of them are quite difficult, then become a patron of the podcast. It costs about£3.50 a month, as little as£3.50 a month. Uh supports me, supports the podcast, and uh allows you to bombard the guests with difficult questions if you so desire. Uh the blurb to do that is uh the link to do that is in the blurb this episode. Enough of that. On to hey chower, Steve Holland. Welcome to the studio.
SPEAKER_03Hello, mate.
SPEAKER_01Hello, mate. Thanks for having me. Pleasure, mate. Pleasure. We we're glad to get us arranged now. We met on the we met what, about two years ago now, on the lad diable thing. Or was it early last year?
SPEAKER_03Early last year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude, that was good, good, great, good. It's a good thing it was, yeah. Good guys and that, good guys and girls on that, on that, uh, on that actually. Um but what I am excited about, genuinely excited about, is to talk to you because you have recent and extensive experience in two hot spots at a minute around the world. One is Ukraine and two is Gaza.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And as you will know probably more than anyone, uh sometimes the representation and the news of what is going on in these places uh is not is not as high quality as it should be for various reasons. Yeah. Uh, but also I think we, as in people who haven't actually been there during these times, we can be very guilty of of uh of uh easily forming opinions and and having perception of things that are going on there that are not necessarily true or accurate or a true reflection of what's going down and what people are experiencing. Yeah, you've been both, and uh and and also your ex your ex-Britch Tolia. Yeah, you know, so you've got that rel that experience to weigh it up against. Can we talk about Gaza first? Is that right with you? Yep. Okay, all right, cool. Uh what the fuck is going on, mate? What the fuck is going on in Gaza? What so you came back from there what a few weeks ago?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I very recently come back from Gaza. Uh I did a recent trip in there.
SPEAKER_01Um I mean to me it just looks like on the news it's rubble. Just pure rubble.
SPEAKER_03It is. Okay. The only way I can describe Gaza is like a massive earthquake has happened, and absolutely more or less everything is flattened. Um, especially sort of Rafa Car newness. Darabella is the main hotspot for the humanitarian hub, what we call it. And a lot of humanitarians are in that zone.
SPEAKER_01So you're out there doing humanitarian work.
SPEAKER_03I'm out there doing humanitarian work, yeah. And um, I would say from the whole of Gaza, from the north to the south, Darabella okay, is is is intact to a degree, um, but it does still get hit.
SPEAKER_01Why is that why are they left that? Why is that intact?
SPEAKER_03Because it's the main sort of launching point for humanitarians. And when I say humanitarians, you're looking at the UN, WFP, World Central Kitchen. Everyone that works within the humanitarian zone more or less congregates within Darabella, which is the middle ground, it's in the middle of the country. Um, that's probably the reasons why.
SPEAKER_01You mean in the middle of Gaza?
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, we we refer it as the middle ground, but yeah, it's the central uh piece of north to south.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and I would suggest that that's one of the main reasons why why Darabella is still very dangerous, but uh, you know, but some of the structures are still standing.
SPEAKER_01But pretty much everything else is decimated.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03I would say from my experience, moving from Derabella, moving to the south into Carnunis and Rafa, everything, more or less everything is flattened. There's nothing standing, give or take, the odd building. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And just to put so I don't think well, most people don't understand like the size of Gaza and and how small it is. Like Gaza is smaller than London, like significantly smaller than London. Yeah, it's tiny. I think it's what is it? Isn't it about 18 miles long?
SPEAKER_03More or less, yeah. It's about six, seven miles wide, yeah. Something like that. It's tiny, you know. For you to get to top to bottom, you know, from north to south, south to north, you could probably do that in a straight run in about an hour and 20 minutes. Top to bottom. You know, it's it's really small, you know, and it, you know, and it homes 2.1 million people um as it stands now, you know, and yeah, there's not there's very limited freedom of movement in Gaza.
SPEAKER_01I'm just looking at London. Yeah, London's nine million. 2.1. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, so is that 2.1 million people that are there at the minute, and that doesn't include obviously the refugees that have left?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so as it stands now, you've got 2.1, approximately 2.1 million people. But if you bear in mind the amount of people that have been killed, bear in mind the people that have left, you know, but it's around 2.1 million people, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where are the where are most of the camps, the refugee camps outside of Gaza now?
SPEAKER_03So as you are aware that there was a mass evacuation of Gaza City over the last couple of weeks, uh the IDF have um they did a huge offensive into Gaza City. Um, and they do warn you prior to this happening. So what we've seen over the last four weeks um was there's a new humanitarian zone that have been set up in in Almawazi. So sort of the car newness sort of Rafa bearing, you know, and there is a humanitarian zone where everybody has been asked to move into. It's what we call the yellow zone. And when the IDF did an offensive into Gaza City over the last couple of weeks due to them wanting to dismantle Hamas, um, you know, you had hundreds of thousands of people evacuating south, you know, with their whole life in the back of a trailer, you know, and they had they do get warnings to leave, but they intend to leave at the last minute, you know, and they have one road to move on, which is the um Al-Rash Shahid Road, which is what we call the coastal road, you know, and it's literally a dirt track moving from south to north, you know, and more or less everybody has moved to the south into what we call the yellow zone, which is the safe zone. And when you say there is not one grain of sand that you can see, everywhere you see there's a tent. There's everywhere you see there's a tent that's been established for people to live. Um, so yeah, you can imagine the um the chaos, you know, which is sort of happening on this road. Uh and the Al Rashid and the coastal road is more or less the only road you can move on to travel, because the Salaheden road, which moves on the middle ground, there's only so much of that road you can use, and you sort of get diverted to the west onto the Al Rashid road because the IDF have got checkpoints uh and you more or less can't move because the road's been destroyed. So, yeah, in regards to passage and freedom of movement, it's very difficult to move.
SPEAKER_01What is the what is the dynamic like between the I I'd say between the aid agencies, the the local population, gardens, and Hamas.
SPEAKER_03The dynamics. So you know, there's a lot of agencies out there, you know, that are doing a fantastic job. Um you've got the UN, WFP, World Central Kitchen, um and then you've got Hamas sort of trying to disgruntle and cause problems within these operations where they're trying to divert aid.
SPEAKER_01Explain that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so a lot of Gaza, a lot of the success in Gaza, it case you need the first thing that you need to achieve is community acceptance. Okay, if you don't get accepted within that community, whether that's in Darabella, Rafa, Car Nunis, Gaza City, you more or less got a problem straight away. You mean as an aid agency? As an aid agency, you have to build the trust from the community. Um, and for you to be accepted and for you to be successful, you know, in regards to feeding people, um you know, you have to have the acceptance from the local community. What we've found, um, you know, uh what Hamas try and do, you know, is that is they try and divert aid, you know, and for their own for their own need, you know, and it's and it's a huge problem. Needs in what sense? To feed themselves, you know. So, you know, and from a security standpoint, you know, that that's especially with the organization that I work for, that's a big no-no. You know, that's like something that we are consistently battling every day. Um because we are there to feed the people, you know, we're not there to get involved in any of the dynamics between Hamas and the IDF. You know, we are there to feed the people. Um, but unfortunately, you know, in these areas like Gaza, you know, you're consistently battling hostile actors, you know, who are trying to disgruntle and damage our operations.
SPEAKER_01In an so in a in a normal situation, on my experience, yeah, you know, aid agencies going to somewhere and it is courtesy and uh well often the prerequisite is that you're doing that at the invite of the government, right? And then you would you would liaise coordinate and with the local government to to bring to deliver the aid to where it is to go. Yeah. Is that not the case where hammers are concerned then? Are aid agencies operating pretty much independently and hammer us are a thorn on the side?
SPEAKER_03More or less, yeah. So our coordination is done more or less um through the IDF.
SPEAKER_01Is this topic alright to discuss this specifically? Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_03So, in regards to aid, you know, our coordination is more or less done through the IDF.
SPEAKER_01So, in fact, the IDF, okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the Israelis actually are the ones pushing for aid to get into Gaza. Um and for us to be able to do that, you know, we have to coordinate all types of movement with the Israelis.
SPEAKER_01That is counter to what most people would think.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So it's and it's a very um it's a very difficult process because if you remember not so long ago, the borders were closed. You know, they it was closed for 70 plus days, you know, the not one pallet of rice entered Gaza, you know, and Gaza was more or less going into a famine because there was a ceasefire, if you remember, Hamas more or less come back out in the open, uh, and the ceasefire collapsed very, very quickly. Um and the Israelis, for whatever reason they they did this for, was for obviously um they had a reason for doing it, but they didn't open the borders, you know, when Hamas were uh sorry, the Palestinians were in trouble, you know.
SPEAKER_01That basically didn't open the borders to the aid agencies and others coming in, right?
SPEAKER_03They were closed. Um, you know, and why do you think they did that? Because a lot of the food was going to Hamas, or the Israelis believed, you know, that the food was getting diverted, you know, and that's very counterproductive for their operations, you know. And what they then did is before they put control measures in place, they closed the borders, um, and again there was no food entered because there was food in Gaza, there were there was food there, you know, and they more or less um more or less at every last grain and of rice and flour before they allowed them to open, and which then did create starvation, did create people getting hungry. You know, it's really hard being sat on a fence because you can really look at this both sides, you know, and obviously we're there to stay neutral, you know. But I was a part of uh I was there at the time when the borders were closed, but then I was there at the time when they opened for the first time, and you can imagine the um the issues that we were presented with with hundreds of thousands of starving people waiting at the border, waiting to get your food. Because what would you do if your family were starving at home and they needed something? I know what I would do, you know. Um, and it was a very, very, very difficult time, you know, to be able to coordinate, be able to manage all the risk, you know, that come with feeding people. And that was my job. But to answer your question, the coordination and the permission actually comes from the IDF, um, and they will dictate what comes in and what comes out of the country.
SPEAKER_01Is that even across the Egyptian border?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Really? Oh, hang on. IDF not in control of that border as well as the other.
SPEAKER_03No, no, so it'll come through, you know, the Egyptian border or the Israeli border, you know, but at that time it'll come to the um the Israelis will then have to authorise that to then continue into the Palestinian side, you know, or not obviously they've occupied and they will control everything.
SPEAKER_01Why do I think why do I think that the the Palest the Palestinians were sort of butted up right against the Egyptian border with no IDF in control? So the border on the south side there is also IDF controlled.
SPEAKER_03Yes, you've got the Egyptian, and then once you cross the Egyptian side, you then come into the Palestinian side, but obviously the IDF are controlling that.
SPEAKER_01I didn't realise that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, and that's and it's through that route that most of the air comes through, right?
SPEAKER_03Predominantly it's uh an area called Kamar and Shalom. Yeah. Um and yeah, it obviously more or less comes through that side, yeah. So it's um it's very hard to manage, you know.
SPEAKER_01What what do the what do the Gazans what's the Garden Gazans relationship with Hamas like? How do they see them?
SPEAKER_03Um it's really hard to say, you know, because you know these these were the government, these were the people that were more or less running their country. Um I I think you're gonna get good or bad reviews, whoever you speak to, but with what I'm gauging now, you know, they just want them to go. You know, they've Gazans want Hamas to go. Yeah, I think they just want an end to the war. And you know, with whatever stance Hamas has got, it's clearly not working. You know, they've it's a David and Goliath situation where no matter what they are trying to achieve, they're gonna fail because they've been at war for a long time now. And you know, I think the people of Gaza just want an end to this war, and the only way the war is gonna end is Hamas is removed, you know, and they bring in another authority, um, which I'm presuming that's what they're gonna do in the next stages, and yeah, you know, I think from my opinion, you know, the best thing to do is is to remove Hamas from from being in their political control and just to stop this war because it's brutal, mate.
SPEAKER_01You know, and it it's yeah, it's a it's uh yeah, it's a real challenge if you've got a government, which essentially Hamas are, yeah, right, regardless of how effective they are at the minute, yeah. That are also a prescribed terrorist organization, it's a real drama, you know. Um and it like you're saying it presents real problems for any any any progress towards peace, especially when you know I a lot of the lot of the Western world has got sympathy, I can't speak to the rest, but has got has got sympathy for the what's going on, yeah, what's going on in Gaza and what's going on in the West Bank and have and have that, but even more so now, but also but there are a significant percentage of people who think maybe rightly so in some respect that Hamas may not be the best people here, yeah, and may not have the the best intentions at heart, I think. And and also you got the you got that embedded, the ingrained distrust the IDF have of Hamas of Hamas, yeah, and obviously vice versa. And what the US has got of Hamas, what the UK has got I'm talking about at the government level of Hamas. Uh I I I agree. Uh I mean I don't see a decent a path forward unless they're removed uh or replaced, but then there's the question that who replaces them, who chooses who's to replace them, and how how do they get replaced? Because you can guarantee Hamas are not gonna go, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have goal. Like let someone else take over. It's not that's not the way it works, no, it's not the way it works, especially especially in that part of the world, and and especially uh especially with the history and the um of uh of uh Hamas and and how they came to power as well, you know. Uh we should say that at the point we're recording this, uh the so the this a ceasefire started yesterday, Steve, right? Yesterday, and this is where you know this oh sorry, not ceasefire. Yeah, ceasefire started yesterday, but also I'm pretty sure it's on the news last night. I haven't caught up this morning, but there's been a ceasefire agreement yesterday with Netanyahu, who uh the Harris leader can't remember who it is, and and obviously Trump was involved there, but seems to be behind the scenes being orchestrated a lot by Tony fucking Blair of all people, Tony Blair of all people, yeah, who might just be the saviour here. He could say he could be able to not have on my bingo card, by the way.
SPEAKER_03No, he could be the saviour, you know, and I think you know, with um I think we're just desperate. Yeah, I don't think who who someone needs to turn up and and someone needs to stop this war because you know it is um you you're right in what you're saying, and and again, we we are so neutral and we sit on the fence and and I base no opinions on on who the leadership, you know, that's not for me to discuss, but with what I see, you know, this war needs to come to an end. And I think this desperate measures need to put into place, you know, because ultimately a lot of innocent people are being killed because they're being caught up in stuff, you know. Uh and it's sad, it's really sad, you know, when people need to step in and try and take control back, you know, and to fix Gaza because, you know, they're they're beautiful people, you know, they're just normal people like me and you, you know, but there's there's good and bad in in everyone, isn't there, you know? Um so yeah, it's a big, big, big long story, you know, and and it obviously it stems back from a long, long time ago, but ultimately the only people that suffer is just the normal people like me and you, you know, and it's sad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it's but uh you know, as as you know, and and and as the people of uh Palestine know much better than us, this has dragged on for so so long, you know. Yeah, what what amused me recently was where Keir Starmer recognized Palestine as a state, yeah. And I think but we did this. Yeah, we've done this before. It's like we've it's like oh I think in the West we we play these games for our own to our own ends, for our own electorates in our own countries, but using these other places as pawns in a way.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, like 2005, the UK government recognised Palestine as a state, yeah, you know, and then in the 20th century uh it's happened as well, and uh it just goes around in cycles and it's kind of never ended. And the only the only the like the only real situational change I see over time is that the uh Palestinians situation becomes worse, yeah. In that they tend to become more constricted, more more you know, smaller areas that they can live and breed and uh work and whatever they want in. Yeah. Um and nothing much our strangers, you know. Uh and I don't know how much. Longer that can go on. I can't I like I say I didn't see Tony Blair on my bingo card of people who have come forward. I may actually be someone I think, oh, you're gonna do a good job because I could severely detest Tony Blair, you know. But someone uh I was trying to understand the motivation to them. Someone said to me a couple of days ago, this this could be like a redemption thing. He could he could see that he really didn't perform well back in the early noughties, yeah, yeah. You know, and and uh and uh was not like a lot of people, and it could be that. I tend not to think that. I think there's some ulterior motives there, but it doesn't really matter. I think if you can stabilize that region, yeah, at least for a short time, and get some sort of working relationship between the Palestinians, whatever that power, whatever comes into power, which isn't going to be Hamas, hopefully, and Israel, so be it, you know. But I think on Israel's attitude needs to change too, for sure. You know, I I I don't think Netanyahu, who's been the biggest, uh, the the biggest and best person to bring about peace in that region, I don't think he really wants it unless it's in a way that the Palestinians don't exist, yeah. You know, which I'm not okay with. I'm not okay with at all, obviously, and a lot of people aren't okay with it. But my God, what a complex situation. Yeah, what a complex situation.
SPEAKER_03Um it's just one to you know, and and and things that you know, listen, I'm learning every day, you know, from you know, not just from outside of my job, you know, what my job permits me to do, but actually understanding the real sort of the real story of what is why has it gone so wrong. And you know, I have very good friends who are Palestinians, and I have very good friends who are Israelis, you know, and from the grassroot speaking to the normal person, you know, you know, before what happened on October the 7th, you know, the the Palestinians from Gaza were openly going into Israel, they were working in Israel, you know, and they were slowly getting there to build trust and to build a relationship with each other, you know, and yeah, you had all the stuff going on in the West Bank. I I I understand all that, but in regards to where they were from Gaza, they were going into Israel and they were working, you know, when they're construction sites and doing whatever, and they were earning decent money, and then they were coming home to Gaza at the end of each day, and and all that's been ruined, and that's not been ruined from the average person, it's been ruined from the de facto, from the the political stance, because they didn't like they were doing that because they were I can only suggest they thought they were losing some form of control over their people. Hamas, you mean? Yes, Hamas, sorry, de facto Hamas, yeah. You know, and and and that is me speaking to Palestinian friends because I'm like, well, what's gone on? You know, I can only read and gauge what's gone on with what I'm seeing. But I sat down for hours having conversations with Palestinians saying, Will you tell me what you witnessed when you were living there? And they were happy, mate. They were happy, they were getting on with the life, you know, and I think and it's just such a shame because it's not the average person that's created this, it's the political stance of power that have did what the awful atrocities of what they've done, you know, on October 7th when they did that, you know, and where did they think that was gonna go? It was only going to go in one direction. Imagine if someone did that to us, we'd do the same, wouldn't we? You know, so I can see both sides of it, and the middle's just so messy where we don't really understand because I think we're just so uneducated in in everything unless you actually dig into it properly and see where this all went wrong, which was a long, long time ago, you know.
SPEAKER_01Late 40s, yeah. Late 1940s.
SPEAKER_03It's just it's just a mess, mate. You know, and you can really get caught up in all that, you know. And you know, I come home and people know what I do, and I have friends, you know, who have a very one-sided version of what's gone on, and it I just don't say anything because you can get caught up in it, and these people have never been there, they've never been to Israel, they've never been to Gaza, they're reading a book or they're seeing a narrative on the TV, they don't know that exactly what's gone on, and these are the people that create hate, they create so much tension, a one-sided version, whether that's from Palestinian version or Israeli version, and actually sitting there and listening to it's quite frustrating, you know.
SPEAKER_01It's yeah, from yeah, it does show up a lot of the a lot of ignorance in people, yeah, absolutely. But also it shows we're talking when you get those kind of responses, but it also shows up the the way the way people will just form a strong opinion on something on the fly and absolutely stick to it without thinking, do I understand this situation? Uh you know uh do I need to form this kind of opinion and then and then hate anyone who thinks uh thinks differently. Yeah. When I've spoken on this stuff in the past occasionally, and I put little snippets out about particularly on this topic, like anything to do with Israel or Palestine, yeah. I tend not to be try to be too political on it, right? Because it's just so divisive, mate. Um, but some of the DMs you know, like fucking hell man. Yeah, from from from people I I kind of know and respect. And you go, Jesus Christ. It's bad. Like he's just like one, calm down, yeah, and two, it's not that clear cut, mate. Yeah, you know, with with with the Middle East side of thing, with with the Israel-Palestine thing, you know, there's like there are there are uh huge percentage of people who have formed very strong opinions on that situation there, and their only knowledge of that whole situation out there in the Middle East, it starts on the 7th of October. Yeah, uh, you know, it starts on that October 7th attack. Yeah, they know nothing prior. Yeah, you don't know anything at all, they've got no context there at all. And just going off of October 7th and form this opinion, you go, man, yeah, yeah. You know, it ain't that simple. It doesn't excuse October 7th. I'm not certainly not doing that, but you once you understand I think the complexities and you hear from people like sales on the ground uh yeah, yeah, um um for significant lengths of time, and you go, it ain't that simple. Yeah, the one reality is that there are lots of fucking unhappy people there and people's lives being diverse disrupted on both sides of the border, you know, on the Israeli side too, yeah, you know, and um and um it's just it's just an incredibly sad situation, especially, especially, you know, particularly on the on the on the Gaza side, definitely and people in the West Bank, you know. Uh I I've really tried. It's this is a topic that I I in the past until relatively get really emotional over, yeah, either really angry or like upset, like genuinely. Um uh and I'm trying to I'm trying to stop myself doing that because it's not healthy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And the situation is probably not going to be solved in the way, like, for example, the Palestinians want it solved within my lifetime. I highly, it's I highly doubt it. Like, I think the best that we could probably hope for in our lifetimes, if we give a fuck about that part of the world, yeah, is that it just stabilizes. Just stabilizes, like calm down, everyone. Just stop, stop the killing. Yeah, yeah. You know, uh, what do you think about the what as a military person? What do you think about the IDF's military tactics there in Gaza? The fact that they've rubberised the entire place concerns me somewhat. Yeah, but I know I'm not naive, I know that their tactics relative to ours are very heavy-handed and very colours, and that has to put to put it lightly. But I also think that maybe they've gone about it in a way that creates more problems for them as opposed to just the military, like the military outcome they're looking for internationally. It doesn't seem to have done them very good in terms of international uh reputation, should we say? What's your thoughts of having been there?
SPEAKER_03Um again, you know, if we sat a Palestinian here and we sat an Israeli here, I'm pretty sure you could listen to both of them and go, okay, I get both sides, you know, and from a military man, you know, let's not forget what we did in Iraq. I went to Iraq, you went to Iraq, okay? Where are you going with this? No, no, but I'm just saying, yeah, let's not forget, okay, we have been a part of something that, in my opinion, and I've got a right to have an opinion because I was in that war, is do I think that we should have gone into Iraq? Absolutely not. Do you think we we should have bought something? I don't think we should have ever been into Iraq.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03And and I think we all, without getting into it, but I think we all know the reasons why we've got to be.
SPEAKER_01I'm inclined to agree with you.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So so you know, we are two ex-militimen who have been a part of multiple campaigns, and as we've progressed and got older, you know, we we can base our opinions on that. Now let's look at Gaza. You know, I get it, you know, from a military any military occupation, it's going to be very heavy-handed, you know, and the Israelis have lost a lot of soldiers. A lot of soldiers, you know, through through this war. And the Palestinians have lost a lot of people, you know, and it's just, yeah, it's relentless and it's very brutal, you know. Like, let's base it on Gaza City, you know, the the thing that's the Gaza City um the the occupation, uh, sorry, the the huge offensive that's just taken place. And one of the first things that they did was absolutely flattened every high-rise building there. Is that a tactic we would use in in Iraq? You know, I'm not sure. You know, I I don't think we we flattened every single building, but the reasons why the Israelis did it, um, in my opinion, is because Gaza is so small. And in fact, the Hamas have got very, very well trained snipers, you know, and when they're sitting off in these high buildings picking off Israeli soldiers, that's their reasons behind that. Do we understand that? Well, yeah, I do actually, you know, and I think they're at a point where, and this is just based on my opinion, they're at a point now where they're they're not going to take any more casualties, unnecessary casualties from a military perspective, you know, but then look at it from a Palestinian perspective, you know, these people having their homes flattened because of a couple of bad actors who don't care about them, you know, and you know, Hamas will go into these high-rise buildings. And you know, so it what do you do? You know, from a soldier on the ground, what would we do? And from a Palestinian living in these flats, it's you're like this, aren't you? You see both sides of the story, you know. Um you know, but it is heavy-handed, but war is heavy-handed. You know, look at what's going on in Ukraine, brutal, you know. So, yes, I understand that, but I think any occupying force would do the same, you know, especially in today's war, which is a lot different than maybe when me and you were in Iraq or Afghanistan, you know, it's very different, it's a different setting. Um, I think that answers the question. It's it's a difficult one, mate. You know, it's really different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a difficult one. Um looking plain devil's advocate and looking at a I'm gonna use that phrase. Playing devil's advocate and looking at it from the the the Israeli side. Uh or let's pretend it's us, you know, yeah. When you're fighting a well, we've been in a situation like Afghanistan, you know, you you're fighting uh you're fighting an enemy which doesn't wear uniform, blending with the local population, they got freedom of movement, yeah. You know, it is extremely challenging. And uh and and it was even more challenging for us, like the thing from Afghanistan, for example, because we we played by the rule book, yeah, weren't as heavy-handed as as what Israel are. Like, for example, we wouldn't go and flatten a high rise, not that there were high rises like Helmand, but we were really careful about collateral damage and ensuring that civilians weren't going to get hurt and injured, flattening a building because you got shot at from it, yeah. It's highly unusual in my experience. It's not to say it didn't happen, yeah, yeah, but it was unusual, you know, unless you could absolutely guarantee that there was no civilians in there and there was no other way to take out whoever was in there, then you wouldn't do it, let alone a highways. Did that make our lives more difficult? Absolutely did. Yeah. Uh if it had been if it had been a uh, you know, if it all been sort of urban warfare that we were doing out there, would we have lost a lot more soldiers taking that approach? Yes, we would have. You know, and that is kind of the situation that Israel are finding themselves in a um uh uh trying to combat Hamas. You know, it's it it is not easy from the military perspective. Uh not that I've got any fucking sympathy whatsoever with the Israelis, I'll be completely completely open and honest about it. I think it's just the heavy-handedness is just way over the top, you know. I I think the rebellion is partly a tactic to uh to partly a tactic that to get to turn the Palestinians against Hamas. Yeah, yeah. Again, for political reasons. Yeah, um that may be a good thing, you know, but uh the manner in which they're doing it. I mean, it just resets the whole place. How would you rebuild and you know Trump going on about rebuilding the place? Oh yeah, flick of a switch, send money and cool, no, but it's not yeah, you know, it doesn't bring back possessions, it doesn't bring back homes, it doesn't bring back livelihood, it doesn't bring back the shops, it doesn't bring back the the work and the employment and all that. It's literally ruined, you know. Yeah, Trump money isn't gonna work on that, yeah. Uh not at all. Um what do you think is the way forward? Like if if you could if you could flick a switch, wave a wand and and uh and resolve the situation there in the short term, how would you do it? In Gaza. Yeah. Well would you if you were the Israelis, if you could control what the Israelis are doing, or if you could control what Hamas are doing, or what the Gaza are doing, or what governational governments are doing, what would you do?
SPEAKER_03I think a stu s a two-state solution is is probably the best thing, you know, and a two-state solution, yeah, yeah. You know, um something that's been going on for a long, long time, you know, in regards to the arguments towards a two-state, you know, and you know, bringing in an external body, you know, to sort of take control of the country. Um, you know, Hamas just need to go. Like and if I could weigh a weighted wand, they just need to go because they bring nothing but problems to the country. Um, you know, I think we need to rebuild from the start, you know, and I think it's gonna take a long, long time for trust to be rebuilt from a country that sits as a neighbouring country to Israel, you know, and it's difficult, it's really difficult, you know, and and it's gonna take a long time. But uh my first thing would be to completely remove Hamas and to put another governing body which is then governed by the Americans or by the Brits, or you know, similar to what we did in Iraq, you know, in Isaf, you know, when when we were sort of there as a part of a an external overwatch to make sure things are going right in the right direction, if that makes sense, you know. It's tough.
SPEAKER_01I see, yeah, I see what you're saying. But when I I because of the influence that Israel has on those places just mentioned, UK, US, I don't think that would be a great idea for Palestinians, but also Palestinians aren't the only one, they're not the let's say it is two states, they're they're not the only state there. The Israelis also need watching, which is you know, but but they do need watching, you know, part of the reason the situation is the way it is. It's not well, it's not entirely down to Palestinians or Hamas. You know, Hamas haven't been around with uh since the start of the Palestine Israel problem. Yeah, yeah. You know, they're a relatively recent development. Uh I see obviously there are there are there are they're an evolution of other organizations there, but but again, Israel need watching too, you know. They they need strict, strict, strict, strict uh over oversight, which they won't allow.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01They won't allow it, yeah, yeah. You know, they won't allow it because it doesn't let them do what they want to do. It's uh I mean I don't I don't see what option is other than a two-state solution. What's a one-state look like? Yeah, because Israel aren't gonna go anywhere. So where do the Palestinians go?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, what the fuck is going on? What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_03I don't think there is uh I don't think there's a I don't think there's a textbook answer to any of this, you know. It's just you're just trying to find a better end of a rubbish deal, you know? It's what what can we do?
SPEAKER_01Like if I can wave a wand, it would be it would be I think it would be right, Palestinians have the east of that land, yeah, that is the Israel and Palestine land, have the east, obviously, right? So that would mean Gaza would go to Israelis, right? But you split it down the middle, give Palestinians east, give Israelis the west, and down the middle is this massive iron wall. It's like a huge it's like you know when you separate the kids, yeah, yeah. It's like right, you go in that room, you go in that room, you both calm down, get on with your lives, the door is staying shut, and it's not gonna open back up until you've both matured a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally, it's impossible to interact with each other. Yeah, yeah. I haven't said that. I think practically speaking, that gives Palestine no ports.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a it's a it's a tough one, isn't it? You know, I think if we had that wand, that's what we do, you know.
SPEAKER_01I don't really mean that directly we're split away.
SPEAKER_03Fucking all it's tough, innit? What do you do? And it's it's so difficult, mate. It really is.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't know how it's gonna turn out. I you know, peace is the first thing, chill out, peace, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Everyone just stop, you know, and you know, with what I've seen, you know, the only people that are getting caught up in all this is the innocence of children and um women and and men who are just trying to get and earn a living and put food on the table for the families, you know, and it seems to me that these are the only people really suffering, you know, and yeah, it's it's terror, it's bad.
SPEAKER_01Are the Israelis are they um deploying drone technology and uh ground and air drone technology? I don't know I the reason I'm not asking about Hamas is because Hamas would have probably had problems getting that equipment in to be able to use it, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But are the Israelis using that kind of technology? I believe they use drones, yeah. You know, I I can only imagine someone as advanced as Israel are using using drones, you know. Who isn't these days? Um, yeah, I think drone warfare is a is a thing out there, but um, you know, I think they're very s sophisticated in in their ability to use drone warfare and and AI. But um I know very little about that because that's not the space, you know, in Ukraine. I know a lot about it because that was the space I was working in. Um, but I can only presume that they are using using it for whether that's surveillance, whether that's for attack drones, whatever it may be. But yeah, um there is drones because when I go into Gaza, you can hear the drones, you know. But um a lot of them are sort of surveillance drones that we hear. You can sort of tell with how they they sound like a distant lawnmower, like the all in 10 or you know, whatever drone that may be. But but yeah, they I presume they're using them for a lot of military ways, you know, to gain their military um tactics and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Would you prefer to be a soldier on the ground in in Gaza or a soldier on the ground in Donbass?
SPEAKER_03A soldier on the ground in Gaza. Yeah, they still say no questions. Yeah, yeah, I'll take them all day, you know, because Ukraine's a completely different.
SPEAKER_01When did you first go out there?
SPEAKER_03To Gaza.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, when was the first- No, no, no, Ukraine. When was the first time we were out there?
SPEAKER_032022. The war kicked off on February 24th. Well, as a continuation of in fact, what I didn't know when I went to Ukraine was was, you know, the Ukraine and Russia have actually been at war for 12 years before the conflict in 2022. So the on the 24th of Oct uh February 2022, obviously, we all know that Russia invaded Ukraine, where in fact it was a continuation of a war that was already happening in Donbass, which no one talks about, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um the media conveniently uh declined to mention that. Yeah, prefer it to be this big start point and yeah, it's a continuation of uh much the same as kind of saying the same as Israel-Palestine, October 7th.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no, yeah, fucking way before. It didn't start October the 7th, you know. This has been going on a long, long time. And it's the same with Ukraine, you know. I believe it was 2000 and I could be wrong, I believe the Donbass War started in 2012, you know, as as as they were fighting for land, you know, and everyone talks about the 24th of February 2022, including me. I was so naive to what was actually going on in front of me, where in fact it's just a continuation of a war that's lost hundreds of thousands of people, men and women, you know, for fighting for a bit of scorched earth. Um so to answer your question, mate, yeah, I deployed to Ukraine in the I think it was like the 27th of February 2022, a couple of days after they invaded. Um that's sort of when I left the army in 2014, did what we all do, went and jumped on the circuit to Iraq and Afghanistan on various diplomatic and oil and gas contracts. Um one sec, what is that chair squeaking against? Is that can you hear it on the mic? I think it's just me.
SPEAKER_01That's what it is.
SPEAKER_03It's what it's walking. No, sorry, no, go on. Um you know, and yeah, you know, in sort of Iraq, Afghanistan, various diplomatic and oil and gas contracts. And um and yeah, you know, and and my mate phoned me. Oh, so you went out of the circuit to Ukraine? No, no, no. So when I left the army in 2014, right, I sort of then filtered into the course protection. Sorry, okay, right, yeah. Yeah, uh deployed back to all the places that I never said I was gonna go back to, which is Iraq and Afghanistan. Um, and then when I come home uh from Iraq on on one of my uh rotations, I was sat at home. I mean, one of my mates was out in Ukraine and they sort of preempted this war was gonna happen uh with sort of um analyst and intelligence that they had for a company that he was working for. And then it did happen, and then they invaded. Um, and more or less that's how I ended up. It was just a gig for me, you know, it was just another gig to put food on the table. What I didn't know what what what was what what the next three years looked like, you know. So when I asked to come out to Ukraine, I was like, yeah, mate, I'll come to Ukraine. I was like, oh busy, you know, I've got this contract out in Ukraine, and very, very quickly I thought, oh shit, like what have I done? I remember driving into Ukraine. Um sort of I got tasked to um pick up this armoured vehicle, and I and I drove to Kyiv, and this is when I started working for CNN, and um I always remember mate driving into Ukraine and when I got in, sort of everyone was fleeing. I drove in straight in, mate, no traffic, because only only a lunatic driving in, even aboard who were like, Are you so where are you going? Like, are you sure you want to go in? I'm like, Yeah, yeah, like everything's cool. So I went to Lviv, you know. As I went to Lviv, sort of the next day drove to Ukraine into sorry into Kyiv, and the Kyiv was getting smashed, mate. You know, it was getting hit hard. Have you ever been to Kyiv? No, mate, the most beautiful country, most beautiful city you'll ever see.
SPEAKER_01I've got a friend who goes out there relatively regularly, you know, for security reasons, and quite often he's he's in a hotel in Kyiv, and he says the same thing. He's like, most amazing place. I mean, last time we said this was about a year ago, I'm thinking, mate, what even now? Yeah, yeah, he loves it, he loves it, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It is, it's beautiful. And I was very again naive. I use that word a lot because like the new sort of war that we see ourselves in today, you know, and I was like, Yeah, this is nice, you know, it's like London, it's beautiful, mate. You know, I was expecting to drive into some place, I was like, never even heard of Ukraine before, you know, which I had, but I didn't really think much of it, yeah. You know, and um and I remember driving in to Kiev, mate, and my mate phoned me and said, Listen, like, stay off this road, the Russians are there, you know, the tanks are on the road. I was like, okay, and I just didn't know what I was getting myself into, mate. And I always remember driving the southern route to hit one of the um routes to to avoid the route where the Russians were, and I had the radio on, a bit of background noise as we were driving, and this alarm came through the radio, and as the it came through the radio, it actually started ringing outside. And what happens is when the air raid alarm goes off, it cuts everything and it tells people that there's incoming fire wherever that may come from. I didn't know what it was, that's how much of a brief we got. I didn't know what it was, but then I realised very, very speaking in Ukrainian, everyone's in Ukrainian, yeah, and we're in this little city, I don't know where we were, as we're transitioning from Lviv to Kiev. And I heard, and it is the most frightening thing I've ever heard. Echoes of World War II, everything that we've seen on the TV, everything that we learned in school. And I'm looking up and it's building with sandbags all up it, and you've got these territorial defence guys with like a really old Klashnakov. Like dad's army, like dad's army looking at us, thinking we're like Russian like special forces or something, and we weren't, we were just but they've never used, they're not used to seeing people like us in there, tattoos, baseball caps on, driving armoured vehicles. They're like, Who were these guys? You know, and it was frightening me, you know, and and you know, and and and and at that moment I'd realised, oh shit, like I'm I'm very used to working in the Middle East and very used to working in Afghan and Afghanistan. I'm not used to working in a conventional setting where I'm and and at that moment I thought, what am I doing? It dawned on me that what I was going into was really dangerous. You know, we're coming up against the biggest, if you know, one of the biggest armies in the world are invading this tiny country called Ukraine, and they didn't stand a chance. You know, at the moment in time, they were 17 kilometres away from Kyiv. They were 17 kilometres. I did nothing. Yeah, they were there, mate. You know, and when you've got a T90 battle tank, you know, with its you know, with its guns facing the city, that's nothing, mate. You know, these you know, 40-50 kilometres these these things, these uh project uh rounds can go, you know, and very, very quickly I was like, what am I doing here? You know, you know, I sort of met my mate and he was like, hey oh, pal, Mike, mate, it's a bit rough, innit? You know, and straight away you're sort of assigned to a journalist. Um, you know, and and and that's when I found myself in Ukraine, you know, and for the next three years, you know, it was insane.
SPEAKER_01Think of the number of people, mate, who have gone out there who don't have your experience, prior knowledge, to have that oh my god, what am I doing in your moment? Yeah, think of the number of people that have gone out there to go and fight with the Ukrainians because they played a bit of COD, they do a bit of, and this is absolute reality, and they played some uh they do some air softing, and they go out there because they want to go and fight the good fight, and they want to join the military or whatever, and they go out there and they don't have that foresight, or they don't have that knowledge to go how far they are 17 kilometres, and they they think that's not far, and also they don't understand what death really is. Yeah, yeah. You know, you can respawn in a fucking video game, you can respawn an air soft, and and and and like it sounds like I'm joking here, but you will know better than I will. These people go out there. Yeah, yeah, there's even military people, ex-military who go out there because they did nothing when they were in, yeah, they feel they've got a chip on their shoulder and they want to go out there, improve themselves for themselves and have zero experience whatsoever, and then up in a fucking body bag. It's so sad, mate. So sad, so sad, and it must happen all of the time, and not just with British, Americans, and all sorts, you know. It's it's just it's just wild, mate. Wild.
SPEAKER_03And you get out. You stayed there, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was stupid enough to stay there and get me and just dig myself a bigger and bigger and bigger hole as time went by. In what do you mean? In what way? Just with the risks, you know, and you know, when I went in 2022, you know, it was more or less we were just trying to figure out what was going on. And you know, I actually remember being sat in the intercon hotel, um, the intercontinental, and you know, we were actually making plans to evacuate, you know. We were the last media team in there with CNN. Everyone had gone.
SPEAKER_01Where is this?
SPEAKER_03In Kiev. In Kiev, yeah. Yeah. And I remember sitting there with my mate, and as we looked out of the window on the tenth floor, we could see a place called um um Borisville um over the right bank of the Dinepro River, and you could just every night, you know, and the Russians were advancing, they were more or less circling the city. So, why did CNN decide to stay until we decided to stay because we're just trying to figure out you know, risk versus reward, you know, how long we could possibly stay there for before we actually bugged out because we didn't really know what was happening, and that's exactly what we did. And as we were making these plans to sort of evacuate and move back towards Lviv because we do you know the risks were more or less too dangerous to stay, the Russians left. They just turned around and went.
SPEAKER_01Why you didn't know that?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Maybe because there's a lot of there's a lot of rumours, there's a lot of hearsay, but to answer your question, I don't know. They believe that they were met with a an overwhelming force that was gonna come and push them out of Kyiv. Um the Ukrainians did a fantastic job, mate, in regards to defending the city. Um, and more or less when the Russians come in, you know, they sort of come in and they were doing everything that we would do within a conventional setting, you know, the the planes were taken off, you know, when they were trying to resupply their ground units, take over sort of various strategical airports, you know, and the the and the the only people sort of keeping these Russian, you know, the Russian forces at uh at bay was like again, your territorial defence forces, your guards, you know, uh and in fact the Ukrainians were met by an overwhelming force, and for some reason they managed to push them back before they got sort of reinforcements that had come in from other areas because don't forget the war was raging in Kharkiv. They have they attacked, I think it was on seven fronts, with Kyiv being one of them. So all their ass all their sort of main bulk of soldiers went racing to the east where they didn't anticipate they were going to come through, you know, from the north. Um, you know, and that's exactly what they did. You know, they they come through through Belarus, you know, and and it caught them off guard because they they never thought they would do that to because actually to come through Belarus into Kyiv, they had to go over the ground, it's that marshland, it's actually really difficult to get through. But for some reason they managed to do it because they were met with so little resistance, and that's how they got into Barodianka, that's how they got into Werpin uh Ambusha, you know, and it took the Ukrainians quite some time to sort themselves out to then go back and push them back. And you've got to take your hands off, you know, you've got to take your tip your hat to the Ukrainians, like they are warriors, mate. Like they are tough people, you know, and they will fight, you know, to the death because they've got something to fight for. That's their country, you know. And you know, I believe, you know, with the war where the war, where the war is at now, that is because of how personal it was with what they what the Russians did in 2022 when they come into Kyiv, you know, with what they did in Boucher and Borodjanka and all those places where they committed these terrible war crimes. So when you actually sit on a table and say, Well, let's end the war, Ukrainians, well, hang on a minute.
SPEAKER_01Like so, what do they do in these places?
SPEAKER_03They committed um, so when the Russians come in and occupy these areas, beautiful suburbs and the outer cities, you know, the outer limits of Kyiv. Um, you know, the Russians come in occupied and they but occupied them for a number of weeks, and they committed some awful war crimes, mate, you know, towards men, women and children. They'll let your imagination take place on what they did. But what they did was completely it's just inhumane, you know. Nobody should have ever done what they did, and they did do that because I was a part of a of a team that went and did stories on on these mass graves that we found in some of the horrific war crimes that they did, you know. And you know, so again, when people talk about negotiations and let's end the war at a at a political level, fine, but actually from the ground level from a soldier, that they're not going to take that lightly because they won't forget of some of these things that they've done to friends, families, people that they know. So it's in fact, it's actually very difficult to convince the Ukrainians to probably stop because, like, no, this is well personal. Look at what they've done.
SPEAKER_01You see that in the we were talking on the on the on the icebreaker about you know the I think just gets streamed or is available afterwards as a nice HD recording. You you see the way that a lot of the Russian captured Russian soldiers are treated by the Ukrainians, yeah. And you go, oh my god. I kind of get it, but also, oh my god, this is another level. And it this is the reality of all our war. Yeah, yeah. Right? You were actually saying um uh you were saying on the icebreaker, you said the trench warfare isn't what we deem it to be. What do you what do you mean by that? Yeah, we're gonna pause it. Yeah, I'll take it. Okay. All right, Mike, so back on we were just talking off air. So uh you you having uh you were having a live on-air brain fight earlier talking about the uh the defence of Kyiv. So go back over that again.
SPEAKER_03So I was just trying to say, um, you know, I think a significant battle, you know, for what the reasons why the Russians didn't take control of Kyiv was um the battle of Hostomel Airport. You know, so when we were in Kyiv and and I told you we were making the decision making on whether we should evacuate or not, because the Russians were making significant ground, what was going on in a place called Hostomel was there was a huge battle where the Russian uh airborne units, the paratroopers and and that, you know, those those type of um units were coming in on the helicopters, you know, and they sort of they were sent to secure Hostomel Airport, whilst their equivalent of their C-17, C-130s were circling above, you know, with the resupply, the ammunition, the troops, um, and they went down to secure the airport. Now, what they didn't know was the resistance that they were going to meet weren't against Ukrainian soldiers, you know, they were against Sergei, you know, who was a security guard on the airport. Sergei being like the generic name for Sergei or you know, Yetchislav, or you know, just some random yeah, random bloke with an old Klashnakov, which you probably didn't even know if it worked or not. And his job was just to secure the airport as a bit of external security, you know, and some of the territorial defence that were based in and around the area at the time. So when the Russians sort of landed to secure the airport to fix it so the planes could land, because Hostma was the only one with the biggest runway to land the planes, the Ukrainian soldiers were more or less a 90-minute drive away. You know, that's where the closest unit was because a lot of their resources went to the east to backfill Kharkiv because the Russians were trying to come through Kharkiv as well. Um, and it's a fascinating story, mate. And and more or less Sergei and his Oppo were keeping these paratroopers sort of an elite sort of unit within the Russian army. So they jumped onto the airfield. They were actually on the airfield, and there was a huge fight, and they did take control of it at some point. But when the um when the call, when the shout went out to these um Ukrainian soldiers who I believe were in a place called Vinnycia, uh, were making their way to Hostomel, they got themselves within range to sort of hit the runway with mortars, so then they couldn't land the planes. So as these planes, the equivalent of the C-17s, C-130s, were coming in to try and land, it was a time-sensitive mission because they knew they had to get these mortars off to destroy the runway so the planes couldn't land. You know, it's little stories like this, mate, that don't get told, you know, and if they failed in that mission, the Russians would have landed those planes, and the likelihood is they would have probably taken control of a lot more of Kiev. Um, and these soldiers got back, you know, and they managed to destroy the runway, and they managed to backfill Sergei and his Oppo, who were protecting the runway and the territorial defence, and then they actually went on an offensive, a counter-offensive, and took control of the runway and the airport, and they managed to push them out of an area called Hostomel.
SPEAKER_0124th of Febru says yes. Yeah, so 24th of February, Russian paratroopers launched a surprise. I never didn't know anything about this. Russian paratroopers launched a surprise airborne assault on Hostomel Airport, also known as Antonov Airport, located approximately 10 miles northwest of Kyiv. Uh, initially successful. Uh the assault began around 0500 local time following a missile strike on the airport and and the nearby National Guard base. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Wiped some of them out, but a few of them got out and instead of running away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, despite initial success in securing the airfield, the Russian paratroopers faced significant resistance from Ukrainian forces, uh Ukrainian defenders, including local fighters and special forces. Quickly mobilised, encircling the isolated Russian unit. It was an intelligence failure. Basically, the the paratroopers got fucking killed, or they had to bug out to nearby forests.
SPEAKER_03They got their ass handed to him, mate. They did, you know, and and initially they they took control of the airport, but they very quickly lost it, you know. And um, but it's these little stories, mate, that are gonna come out years and years later, you know, significant events that prevented them from taking control of Kyiv.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the failure to hold the airport, the airfield was a major setback for Russia as it prevented the planned airlift of up to 2,000 troops, fucking brigade, brigade, and significant military equipment. The Antonov AN225 Maria, the world's largest aircraft, was reportedly destroyed during the fighting. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was, yeah. Yeah, my god, my god.
SPEAKER_03Fascinating, mate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the stories that don't get told, right? Don't get told. What's what's Ukraine like now the last time you were out there, which is relatively recently compared to the last time you were that compared to the first time you were there? Um there must be some serious um fatigue setting in, surely.
SPEAKER_03So I was last the when I was last in Ukraine was March, April of this year, um, as in Donbass. Uh and we were focused on the battle of Pukrovsk, which is a huge battle which is still ongoing. Um absolutely brutal. When you say you were focused, it's part of media. Part of the media too. Yeah. Um as with the New York Times at this point, you know, and our focal point was the battle of Donb, you know, the battle, the ongoing battle in Donbass. At that particular time, it was Pikrovsk. Um Pikrovsk is a strategically strategic stronghold because it dominates high ground and the Russians are trying to take control of it, you know, and they are they again they have met with huge resistance. But, you know, as we go into the third year of the war, you know, their ability of robotic warfare, drone warfare, is just frightening, you know.
SPEAKER_01And you were saying the icebreaker, they're using ground drones as well, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they use ground drones to attack to Kazivak for surveillance.
SPEAKER_01When you say ground drone, give me an example.
SPEAKER_03A ground drone is is what we would know as a remote control vehicle, which is being drove at distance, you know, and those vehicles are used, you know. I've seen vehicles like cars, like cars, okay, right that big big mini trucks which are being remotely driven. They've either got a equivalent of a 762 GPMG on top of it for 30mm.
SPEAKER_01They did not know this was the case, mate.
SPEAKER_0330mm chain gun, you know. Some of these, like we've we've been embedded with these units, you know, then absolutely relentless. So when we say drone, you know, we instantly think, oh, a drone in the sky. Where in fact the Ukrainian sea drones, drones by sea, has more or less depleted the Russians' black fleet. Unbelievable, mate. Robotic war. And this is the new phase of what we are seeing with advanced technologies, you know, things that we do not think about, you know, with the capability of AI. We're not fighting the war anymore. It's a robotic war, and we are seeing it in Ukraine, you know, and these uh land drones are fascinating. You know, they will go in and Kazivak injured um soldiers off the battlefield, you know, where they're able to get onto a platform and then they're driven back, you know, because Ukraine's the most mined country in the world right now. You know, there's mines everywhere. And when I say everywhere, it's they're everywhere, you know. You you can't move.
SPEAKER_01So the Russian surface dropping them. Yeah. As in from the plate, Scotty, they're dropping from the air. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So what one of their common tactics from both sides is um you'll get these drones now that will more or less fly and carry mines, and they will just drop litter mines onto main supply routes, and obviously you've got a convoy coming, drone will drop it, and then you know, and very clever. You know, if you look at trench warfare, which we've which we've briefly touched on, you know, you've got drones that are able to fly a butterfly mine, uh, you know, a five kilogram, you know, um anti personnel mine into a trench position, and they'll drop it into a dugout, you know, or where these guys are sleeping. They'll get out in the morning. Routine boom, and that that's been dropped there that night because they now have nighttime capability. So when we used to do our five and twenties, which is embedded into us, even now, five and twenties, five and twenties, five and twenty five and twenties for civilians who listen to this. Well, five your five-meter and twenty-metre checks. So your five-metre checks is looking to your immediate ground, and then your 20-meter checks is looking for whatever's around.
SPEAKER_01And this is where we're looking for literally looking around for threads.
SPEAKER_03IEDs, the presence of the abnormal, and all that good stuff. You know, that more or less saved my life in Ukraine, you know, and because again, it's just littered with so much uh mines and foreign objects and things that more or less kill you that is booby traps, huge in Ukraine. And we've come across come across plenty of them, these sort of pressure release ones, um, which is which is a classic for the Russians when they're leaving and when they're retreating from occupied areas. Um, you know, and obviously that's built in us through our Northern Ireland days, through our Iraq days. No, no, no, don't touch that, you know. And they can see, you know, there's typically grenade, bit of weight on it, and it's that nice, shiny thing that you see, oh, that's shiny, I'm gonna go and touch it. Civis have got that, you know, like we have, but it's programmed into us not to touch it, you know, and we come across that a lot in Ukraine, you know. I think this is why they need people like us to be out there, because we identify these things because of the experience that we've got dating back from Northern Ireland days, and a lot of the a lot of stuff that we've seen even in that setting mirrors of what we see in Ukraine. Um so yeah, you know, and when we talk about robotic war and when we talk about trench warfare, it's not just the fact that we've got these drones that will drop a grenade on top of you, but you've got your Shaheed 136 drones, which are so dangerous, mate. The Iranian drones, you've seen them, yeah? No, you know, they can fly from out of Russia, you know, and and they will fly into Kyiv. They've got a range of like 2,000 kilometres on them. Um, you know, they and they are big, it was fill this room, you know, the wingspan of it, of and you know, and and they're produced, they're they're mass, the warehouses full of them, you know, and when you look at a patriotic, you know, patriot missile, which is five million pounds, five million dollars for one launch, well you can make hundreds of these drones, you know, which has an 80 kilogram warhead as of is very capable. It's a loitering drone, okay, which it can identify and pinpoint more or less its own targets, um or digitally programmed. You don't even, you know, and just they just fly. And they'll use the ground as terrain to to get themselves into targets, you know. And um Kiev's getting smashed with them most nights, mate. So when you're seeing drone attacks in Kiev, these are the Iranian Shahi drones that are doing that, you know, and very capable, you know. If it hit this building, it would more or less a couple of them hit it, it would collapse it, you know, or they'll cause it significant damage. And um so drone, drone warfare, what we call robotic warfare is the new the new war.
SPEAKER_01What vehicles are they using for the land drones? Well, like what's the easiest to convert? Have you seen them? I've seen them, yeah. What they're using? So don't say highlights.
SPEAKER_03No, no, well, it's I imagine it's got to be something with quite a lot of electronics. So let me let me tell you something what the Russians are doing. Okay. So as we know a VB ID, okay, something that we've come across all of our military career. What the Russians do, okay. Not I've not seen the Ukrainians do it, but what the Russians intend to do is they will pack tanks, you know, whether that's a T70, no, whatever, a tank, T90 battle tank, whatever. It'll they'll pack a tank full of mines, okay, and it'll remotely drive that tank towards a trench position where they know the Ukrainians are. God. So like it's more or less they can remotely drive it, and then you've got a tank driving towards a trench position, and then it will detonate on on arrival. You know, this is what we're seeing. That is it's frightening, mate. Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, and so when I say tanks are frightening enough as it is, let alone being packed with explosives.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely packed, and they will use you know, whatever vehicle they've got available, whether it's a high luxe, whether it's a larder, whatever that may be, you know, because they're continuously thinking outside the box, it's so dangerous to move. You can't move anywhere in Ukraine now because you've you've been pinged by a drone the minute you move. So the robotic war in using these drones, whether that's to assist you, whether that's to extract people or to take the fight to the enemy, this is what they're doing, you know, and it goes against any form of sort of conventions that we're used to. It's just like it's it's free-throw, mate. It's mental, you know. And you know, a drone can travel at what 140 kilometres an hour, it's gonna outdo you in a vehicle.
SPEAKER_01And they're all predominantly wire flown, right? As in the ones the Ukrainians are using on the on the on the on the I mean at the the infantry subunit level, section platoon level, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. But you've got so when we used to use ECM, you know, the electronic countermeasures, which sends out jammers to the radio frequencies, I've seen drones develop from the minute I stepped into that country up until now. And in fact, the advancement of drone warfare, you know, what they do now is they figured out that when you send uh countermeasures into jumble the frequency, which the drones were dropping out of the sky. Have you heard of the fibroxtic drones that are using?
SPEAKER_01That's what I mean. Wire phone, yeah.
SPEAKER_03This is new, this is a new development, it's a new TTP, uh, it's a new it's a new measure. So you're continuously fighting countermeasures, yeah. So they'll do that, well, we'll do this, you know, and that is just continuous in Ukraine. And what they started doing was with the fiber optic drones, which the only way I can explain to the audience are is it's a fishing wire on the back of a drone, it's launched and it's driven remotely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yeah, fibre optic cable. Fiber vision wire, you can barely see it. You can barely see it.
SPEAKER_03These have got 40, 50 kilometres of reel and kilometres that long. Oh mate, yeah, yeah. Continuously developing fifth 40, 50 kilometers of real, okay, or fibre optic cable. You cannot see it, you know, you know, with your with the with your tracking devices, you know. So if we are if we've got um scanners that it will tell you, um, it will tell you that there's a drone, it's a two o'clock sort of drone this time, and that's picking up on the radio frequency that that drone is giving out from the tracking devices that we've got. Where fibre optic cable, there's no ability to track, there's no ability to mitigate, there's no ability to be able to um electronic countermeasures don't work. So, in fact, you're blind. The only way you can pick these drones up is is by raid radar. Where on the ground level, you're not gonna have a radar.
SPEAKER_01You're gonna have radar now.
SPEAKER_03So, in fact, the fibre optic drones are more is the new type of drone, and the only way you're gonna see that drone is when you hear it, when it's more or less on top of you, you know, and that's the frightening thing, and I think out of the three years that I've been in Ukraine, that was the biggest time I felt vulnerable when the fibre optic drones come out because we had no way of detecting a drone was in the sky, you know, and and and and the and the payload that they carry armoured vehicle or no armoured vehicle.
SPEAKER_01Are the Russians uh targeting journalists?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Are they?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. A French journalist was killed a week ago.
SPEAKER_01But it actually targeted, it's not like accidental kills.
SPEAKER_03No. So you know, and that is due to experiences that I've seen, you know, and what you mean, it's due to expensive when I've been in target, you know, and you know, we we actually employed a a tactic where we don't carry press signs and we take press signs off our vehicles, you know, we take press signs off our body armor because it didn't keep us safe anymore, you know. So, you know, they there is sufficient evidence to suggest that they do target journalists and and and media teams. A lot of journalists have been killed out.
SPEAKER_01So the logic is that if they see that they know you're an easy target and an easy kill, basically. I know that listen it because you're not they'll the assumption is you're not military.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I don't think it's an easy kill. I think it's you know, journalists have got a super high risk job, okay. And I understand that the majority have probably been killed due to crossfire and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But I know that there's been instances where they have been actively targeted, hunted and killed, you know, where they've openly got press signs on the car, you know, and you know, it's as clear as day, we're press, you know, we've got no other reasons to move around to pretend we're pressed, you know. They're we're we're we're media, but everything that we do is is at our own risks, and we understand that that it got that comes part and parcel with war, but they they do actively target, you know, and that is stuff that I have seen first hand. Um, yeah, you know, and so it's it's dangerous, mate.
SPEAKER_01What about non-Western press teams out there? Say again, what about non-Western press teams out there? Russian, Chinese, uh anywhere else? Do you come across them much? Oh, I'm assuming that Al Jazeera is out there, for example. Al Jazeera is they're not Western, obviously.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's a lot of media. Everybody's out there. Everybody's out there, you know, all the media, whether they're Al Jazeera, whether they're from Russians as well. Not Russians aren't on the Ukrainian side, you know, so um, you know, we we but obviously there is on their side, you know, and listen, some of their their journalists have been killed, you know, probably been caught up in wrong place, wrong time. And I can only speak for what I see, you know, but you know, I think journalists in in in in in the time of war are very good at exposing exposing people's right and wrongs, you know, and I I believe that at times it's probably in their own interest, and that's why they become targeted, you know. It's it's really dangerous, mate. You know, and and these are things that we're continuously mitigating, you know, every time you're working with a high pro profile journalist, or every time you're working with journalists that spin a certain narrative because that's what they're there to do, they can quite easily become a target, you know, and you've always got to put that in your forward thinking, you know, of how am I going to protect this journalist because of what their job is to do. And I've I've had that myself, you know, where it's like, well, I'm gonna work with this journalist differently than what I was with this journalist, and all becomes a part of your planning, you know, in of risk, and which is it's mental, mate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, um, you were talking on the icebreaker, you mentioned you were talking about Donbass, and you you were saying it sounded to me like you're insinuating that the representation of the the battle that I got at Donbass in the media was not actually what was going on at the ground at the time. Was it so do you want to is that correct? Was that correct to say?
SPEAKER_03Just elaborate on that a bit, mate.
SPEAKER_01I think you were saying that people didn't understand what was really going on in Donbass during that battle there, because you you were in the area at the time, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so is this as a continuation of of what's happened in 2022? Or yeah, yeah. So yeah, you know, listen, I was naive and maybe it maybe ignorant to understand what was going on in Ukraine when I went. I just turned up, you know, I didn't actually know what was going on. Um I knew there was a war, but I didn't know was was it a continuation of a 10-year war at that time. Um, but as I progressed and moved forward, moved over to these two Donbass. Um yeah, Donbass is is is dangerous, mate. You know, and I would say that the the battle of Donbass is more or less the Russians' primary aim to take control of Donbass, you know, where you've got you know heavy fighting in Kramatorsk at the minute, Sloviansk, Bakhmut. You know, if you look at Bakhmut, you know, the Battle of Bakmut, they lost over a million soldiers. A million soldiers to fight for Bakhmut, you know, and mental mate. The Russians, yes, to take control and take over. Oh sorry, sorry, a hundred hundred thousand, a hundred thousand soldiers. Sorry, a million soldiers have been killed. So a hundred thousand soldiers over a hundred thousand soldiers, um, you know, Russian soldiers have they confirmed that it's saying local local source, okay. Okay, you know, for the battle of Bakhmut, you know, that's but obviously you've got to look at the you how many Ukrainian soldiers have been killed to defend it. And I was in Bakhmut when it was Ukrainian. Um, no bigger than a small town, you know, but but from the strategical value, it was so important they took control of Bakhmut. And you know, like these are fierce battles, mate, that have been fought over time, and um so yeah, you know, Donbass is a is a is a is a is a real is a serious place, mate, and that is where I would say the main front of the war is at the minute.
SPEAKER_01What is the feeling what do you think about the the relevance of that part that side of the country being predominantly or significantly ethno-Russian? Because that's why the focus is on the East, right? And this is one of the premises that uh uh this has been a repeated uh cited as a repeated reason by Putin for one of the reasons that he goes in and has become kinetic in these areas and and uh uh and Georgia as well, where it's under the guise of protecting Russian Russian people, right? And and then there's that the claim to the to those areas. Uh, there's Russians there, they need protection, they're not being treated by well by Ukrainians, so I'm gonna protect my people. Yeah, that that's kind of mainly the argument here on Putin's side, yeah. So, what's your opinion of it? I don't mean whether you think that's right or wrong, but not for your opinion. What's your experience of that argument and that dynamic where it comes to your interactions with soldiers and the people of Ukraine and and anyone else's there at the moment?
SPEAKER_03So I'd say these areas are very pro-Russian, and again, without getting into the history and the politics of it, you know, I know there's a lot of history when it comes to certain areas of Donbass, you know, and the Russians believe that it's theirs and they want to annex it to be theirs, but then obviously they've had this back and two back and to for years. Ultimately, at this moment in time, it's Ukrainian land, and they will stand by that it's their land. The Russians will stand by that knowing fact it's ours, and this is what we're seeing at the minute, you know. But um what with what I've noticed, especially over in Donbass, is um they are very pro-Russian, they speak Russian, um, and and I would suggest you know that a lot of them are aligned to be Russian, so that's what I've seen, you know. And I've stayed in Donbass a lot, you know, and um my presence was fine, you know, but you always get that sort of feeling that it is very pro-Russian, and you just get that feeling, you know, um, when you're in these areas. Sorry, excuse me, excuse us.
SPEAKER_01Well, the reality is that it's it's it's it's very recent that it was literally part of Russia. Yeah, again, it's kind of like the Israel-Palestine relevance of pretty recent history, yeah. Which, because news and people's understanding, uh yeah, news mainly, we move so fast these days, it all of a sudden doesn't seem very recent. But you talk about Ukraine, Ukraine uh in the 90s, that's when it went independent from Soviet Russia to give its own thing, yeah. Like the 90s is not that long ago. If it was you and I in again, I'm not this is not me justifying Russia, it's like just painting the context around this. You know, you're talking about Donbass being predominantly Russian, Donbass is a massive battle area, you look at that and you go, Oh, we'll just let them have it. You know, but that doesn't sit well with the Ukrainians who live there, or like the Ukrainian government, for example. But you know, if uh it like the 90s is is literally within our memories, don't mind the generation above us, you know, it's it's so it's so recent times that yeah, it's it makes total sense that there are probably a lot of people in Donbass who consider themselves Russian, even though it became part of Ukraine and totally resent the fact that it came under Ukrainian control, it became Ukrainian. What do you mean we're not Russia anymore? Can you imagine? It's like it's like England if it became all of a sudden not part of Britain. You go right, you're going independent, and you get the heart, and like a lot of the English should be like, Yeah, Mega. Yeah, cool, go independent. Then you get the others go, No, I'm but I want to be British.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm British, no, not anymore, mate. Sorry, not part of the UK. Yeah, you go, hang on a minute, you know, and then down the line something kicks off, and and all of a sudden you've got like an insulator, what the fuck is going on?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what is going on? You also need to put into consideration that other people don't think about is is is the natural resources in those areas with your gold deposits, with your minerals, with your oil, they have the Russians have more or less taken control.
SPEAKER_01In that part of the country.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. In the east.
SPEAKER_01Is that predominantly where the the deposits are?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Is it okay so they have more or less taken control of I might be I'll stand corrected here, but I know it's in the trillions, uh trillions of pounds worth of natural resources that they have so for the 18% of the of the population, so Russia more or less occupy 18% of Ukraine as it stands, and they have seized trillions of pounds.
SPEAKER_01Russia occupies 80%.
SPEAKER_0318.
SPEAKER_0118 18. Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So they have more or less taken control of trillions of pounds worth of natural resources in three years.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I just googled uh a map of Ukraine's mineral resources. Let's have a look at this. Okay. Uh uh. Alright, yeah. So in that eastern, I mean, there is a lot in that eastern region. And you've got um there's polymetallic, there's titanium, zirconium, what's the blue iron, uh, there's manganese. It looks like it's in graphite. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. But there's that there's there's a lot of gold and oil deposits in those areas.
SPEAKER_01Um in Crimea. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So when you actually look at the and again, just an opinion, but when you look at the bigger picture, you know, you can sort of see other things, you know. Why did we look at what we gained out of invading Iraq? Okay. I I'm just speaking on opinions.
SPEAKER_01I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's why I put my hands up. It's like it's like we know why. We don't bother fighting over places that have got nothing to offer us financially. Yeah. It's the harsh reality. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Afghanistan more or less offered us nothing, you know, bar from a strategical stronghold where it sort of sits in the world. But in regards to mineral value, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think it really offered us that much.
SPEAKER_01You know, there's some oil fields there, to my knowledge, right? Um, let's have a look, Afghanistan, uh natural.
SPEAKER_03But there's a bit of a picture painting here, isn't there? You know, with all these places where we invade.
SPEAKER_01Uh map of Afghanistan with mineralized areas. Let's have a look. I mean, it gives a map, but we won't see how much. Uh and natural resources, Afghanistan. Oh man, that's not a good map.
SPEAKER_03Uh it's in my understanding, uh, you know, I don't think it's a great deal.
SPEAKER_01Tin, mercury, yeah, but uh iron, 1.7 billion tons of iron across the country. I don't know how valuable that is. It's gold, not loads of it though. Um lead and zinc. None of these are crazy sought after, are they? Um, but yeah, no, it's it makes sense. Just an opinion, you know. No, and looking at the Ukraine map, there is a lot of natural resources elsewhere in the in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_03A lot, mate. Uh there's the there's you know, and it's the it not only is the is the it's the main pathway into Europe, but it is a very wealthy country in gold deposits, oil, and all the stuff you've just read out. So it's just an added layer of okay, well, that makes a bit more sense now because you know you're sending millions of soldiers over scorched earth to be sent to the death for what? You know, because the the war hasn't really moved in three years, 18, 20. But on the grand scheme of things, they're actually boundary in the lines haven't really moved. You give and you take, you know. But in regards to the amount of money, resources, and human life that's been thrown into that war, there's been no gain. And the Ukrainians seem to be doing more defending.
SPEAKER_01Lots of money has been made, mate, by people not in Ukraine. A lot of me and people not in Russia, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Massively.
SPEAKER_01Lots of people are getting very rich, which is another, you know, which is another aspect to the our involvement, you know, in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it's a it's one of those it's not really a dirty little secret anymore. You know, it's just one of these horrible facts that you come to realise after after the fact and go, you know, you're talking about Iraq. I think I think a lot of people struggle with reconciling their involvement in things like Iraq and Afghanistan. Yeah. You know, whether either they saw people killed or they killed people, or both, and they go, and then they have an epiphany and they go, maybe, maybe we shouldn't have done that. You know, maybe we maybe we shouldn't have been there, maybe. Yeah. And then you and then you try and understand what your partner was, and then maybe you get a massive guilt trip, and then people live a very long, miserable life because they feel horrendous for it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I am not one of those people, you know. I've managed to weigh things up in my head and go, you know, okay. Um uh but but you know, the reality is wars are fought for power and money reasons. That is why that is why it's fought. Wars these days, I think, are very rarely fought to protect your homeland. Yeah, they're do they're doing it to increase the power of your homeland, and arguably that's an indirect protection measure, yeah, but not all the time these days, you know, and and especially with uh with um the way capitalism has advanced in the Western world, you know, where you know significant influence politically. Yeah, Ukraine being an example, Afghanistan being an example, Iraq being an example, Syria being an example, take take Israel being an example, take your pick. Yeah, yeah. You know, a huge factor in all of these conflicts is how much money can be made by the people who supply the things that pervade the war.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's it's a reality, it's a horrible reality. Yeah, yeah. It's a horrible reality. Um there is that there is that, okay. There is that there is a conspiracy theory of um biological warfare labs in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Want to comment on that?
SPEAKER_03Don't know anything about it. I'm don't know I don't know anything about it.
SPEAKER_01You look genetically engineered, like you look a unit. Were you born like that?
SPEAKER_03No, I I don't, you know, I I don't really I don't know anything about that or so um it's not something I've come across anyway.
SPEAKER_01So I thought I'd ask the question. I thought I'd ask the question, right? Yeah. Alright, you've got some more qu you got some more questions during the um in the uh in the chat, which didn't get on too earlier on. Um we c there's one year about the atrocities, and we we covered that. It's just like what what atrocities are you certain the military Russian military's done? And has the Ukraine military committed atrocities too? I think you covered that already. Yeah, yeah. Ukraine have have have done bad things, Russia have done bad things. The thing is on this in times of all-out war, yeah, theft gets real dodgy, real dodgy, and uh, and I think any military ends up doing things that you shouldn't done because you get bad apples, yeah, or you have extreme circumstance, extreme circumstance, you know, you all you've got to do is go back and look at like things like second world war or even more recent wars and and and put yourself in the this this the the shoes of so like Stalingrad. Yeah, putting yourselves in shoes in when you're under the defense of Stalingrad. Yeah, no one's following rules, no one's following the Geneva Convention, not that they existed then, no one's following the law of armed conflict because your literal existence is under threat. Yeah, you know, you're doing whatever you need to get by to survive, yeah, and you think about the consequences later on, yeah, yeah. Which has to be the situation in a lot of parts of Ukraine, yeah. You know, uh in fact you were saying on I you said on icebreaker, uh trench uh not trench warfare, where is it? The battlefield is a lonely, a very lonely place in Ukraine. Yeah. Now I think I understand what you mean by that. But do you want to elaborate on that? Is that will you elaborate? I don't know. I'm not gonna suggest what you what you think, but no, no, elaborate on that.
SPEAKER_03Meaning when we talk about robotic war and when we talk about drone warfare, you know, when I say drones dominate the battle space, they dominate the battle space, they're on stag, they're moving around, they're patrolling areas. So why would you put Well the drones are? Yeah. You know, so you know, gone the days from what we know stag to be in, you know, you have literally got four soldiers pushed into you know, push on onto an apex of maybe the forward line of the trench facing the Russians, wherever they may be at that time, but more or less you are on your own, you know, and you know, sort of drones are doing everything now. They're patrolling the sky.
SPEAKER_01So you mean when you mean it's uh it's a uh it's a lonely place, you mean it's like uh void of very many humans, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, like as we you know look at the you know, you look watch your films of the you know, the you know, you see soldiers in a trench, and there's you know you're all having a laugh and you're all doing whatever you're doing, you know. Even you know, w when when we were training and you know, as we see trench warfare what we think it is, you know, where there's a platoon in, you know, a trench, and you're doing this and you're doing that, you're going into your daily routine. It in reality it's not like that. You know, you've more or less got a couple of soldiers pushed out, just in the event a Russian soldier pops his head up and makes an advancement towards their trench, but more or less it's a very lonely place, mate, you know, and it's a scary place to be because there's drones just there was a I believe that and the statistics might be wrong, but it is there or thereabouts, that at any one time in Ukraine there's over 700 drones in the sky.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_03At any one time, this numbers might be out, but it's ridiculous. I I but I I believe, and I will do some digging on it, and I will be and I'll I when I look like I just have a quick look, mate. At any one time in Ukraine, there's over 700 drones in the sky.
SPEAKER_01How many drones are flying in Ukraine? This may not be a specific uh question, but uh all right, okay, okay. I I let's see if the numbers in here, but all right, drone statistics, courtesy of uh of um the brave browser search. All right, Ukraine is currently producing approximately 200,000 military drones per month. Yeah, 200,000 with a target of manufacturing four and a half million drones in 2025 from domestic factories alone. This production includes a mix of kamikaze first-person view drones and more advanced long attack drones, with the majority being low-cost, mass-produced quadcopters used for precision strikes. Ukraine's that's right. So the next time you're out there flying your drone kids and you're getting some cool footage in the local park, think about the same drone is out there taking some poor, not poor, poor Russian, a poor Ukrainian soldier out. Because the Russians are deployment, too, right? Oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Ukraine's really good at them. You can't take that away from them.
SPEAKER_01Ukraine's drone cap drone production capacity has surged since the start of the war. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. As of October 2025, Russian forces are launching hundreds of geranium-type drones from multiple airfields towards Ukraine, indicating an ongoing aerial offensive. It doesn't say how many flying, though.
SPEAKER_03If you maybe type in at any one time.
SPEAKER_01Uh flying Ukraine. Any one time. Russia will soon fire to fire 2,000 drones a day. Uh Russia launched nearly 500 drones and missiles on Ukraine overnight on Friday, the October the 10th, with 465 drones, including Kamakar, blah blah blah. As of October the 10th. Yeah, so 465 Russia launched overnight. Not give me a daily figure, mate.
SPEAKER_03It was something that I come across, which is obscene, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Here we go. So we've got a general figure here. All right. Uh in previous months, Russia's launched record numbers of drones with 6,245 recorded in July 2025. Okay, 3,625 divided by 30. No, it didn't. 6245. 6245 divided 30. 208. That's just Russia. Okay. 280 a day, just Russia in July. Yeah, and Ukraine is, yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it uh that's probably from both sides. I believe you. Yeah, it's something around that. I was reading something, and you know, so when I say it's it's a very lonely place, you know, and a lot of these soldiers get cut off from their from their you know, forback positions, you know, and you know, and this is through things that I've seen with with being attached to units and by you know, because this is stuff that happens on a day-to-day basis, you know, and that's when I mean it's a very lonely place, because when these soldiers are ordered to go out and be on that final transposition and the Russians are 300 metres away, you know, they never know when they're going to be able to get back. Because when as soon as they move, they're killed, you know, and they could be out there for weeks, if not months. Um, and yeah, it's a very lonely place to be, you know. And when I say scorched earth, it's literally scorched earth, everything's burnt, even the trees are burnt. It's just what's left standing of this tree, and there's a transposition more or less in it, and that's where they'll be. It's it's it's absolutely brutal, mate. You know, and that's across the whole country, you know.
SPEAKER_01What makes me laugh is is that there are I think it's still going on where we bring in Ukrainian soldiers over here to like upskill them, give them some additional training and stuff. And I'm thinking, our British military have done next to nothing for years now. Yeah, for years, you know. Obviously, there are some units that have got some significant combat experience in commas, significant relative to the rest of the British forces. Yeah, but nothing that Ukraine have got.
SPEAKER_05No.
SPEAKER_01Like, what experience can we offer them right now?
SPEAKER_05Nothing.
SPEAKER_01We can offer them some, you know, very specific skills training that they won't have, you know, from be that from a war fighting perspective, you know, advanced sort of Fibra tactics and these other things that they could do with being improving on, maybe, or you know, SF specialist and reconnaissance-oriented stuff. But aside from that, the fucking meaning.
SPEAKER_03We could teach them the basics. And I I think I think we as British soldiers are very good at the basics. But in fact, who are we to teach? They will be teaching us the dynamics of warfare very, very soon. You know, we were at a stage where we were the people going around training people, but but things have changed. And and you know, I've spoken to the military, I've spoken to various units of the military about Ukraine, and we can offer them nothing, you know. And in fact, I've actually had a conversation with Ukrainian soldiers who have been to the UK and they are fully aware that our training is not up to scratch. You know, who are we to teach them trench warfare? Because we have no drone warfare. Yeah, or drone warfare. Yeah. You know, who are we to teach them an advance to contact, which we'll do and nail several times a day and brecken? It's nothing like the reality of what you're seeing in Ukraine because the minute you move, you're killed. Um, so yeah, you know, I think we can teach the basics very well, but in fact, the dynamics of actual warfare, I think we have zero input on what we can teach.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's um oh, it's a proper flapground. I mean it happened for a few years. As soon as I mean in the UK, as soon as it was realized the way like how fast war warfare was developing over there, the way it was going, drone, yeah, yeah, drone-oriented, yeah. And knowing how long it takes our military to pivot and like improve our training processes and stuff, there's a mad flap going on to try and up school us. Because the reality is if if Russia decided to come knocking on our door tomorrow, yeah, or one of our uh European neighbours, they would have the upper hand immediately. Oh yeah. Specifically because specifically because of the the drone capability and our inab our inexperience with dealing with it. Yeah, imagine how many people we'd lose in that first battle, regardless of how much better trained we think our soldiers are, their technological capability would would smash us.
SPEAKER_03Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_01And this is a harsh truth. Yeah. It's a harsh truth that people don't don't don't want to don't want to live with. You know, I I firmly believe that during our our time when you and I served, um, you know, we we were one of the best, one of the top two or three, if not the top uh most capable uh British forces in the world in terms of individual soldiers' ability. Yeah, you know, capability, fitness, discipline, all of that, tactics, all of that. That is not the case now.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01It is not the case. Uh that is not the case now, mainly because of that experience thing. Yeah. Because you Russia, Ukraine, they have Uders more than us.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, fitness is gonna carry a lot, gonna carry you a long way. You're you know, you you're you're yeah, fitness is gonna carry a long way, discipline's gonna carry a long way. Your general, you know, um general soldier and ability is gonna carry you a long way, but it's only so far now. There's a limit to it. Yeah. Because as you said, it's a robotic war. Yeah. You know, we go to roll with Russia, we're gonna have a hard time. Oh, yeah. A hard time. Yeah. You know, it's uh it's a it's a worrying time. Um genuinely it is. It is, but I mean what I mean what one of the things you're right? Yeah, one of the things, one of the things on it is that is not knowing what Putin's intentions are when it comes to Europe and the West. Yeah. It's really not sure. I was pretty convinced up until relatively recently that he didn't give a fuck about what we are. He's he had no of these gr grand plans of taking over the world or expanding beyond what he's already got. I was kind of thinking, kind of just wants to get Russia a bit stronger, take back some of the areas that were that were like during Soviet times that uh made the empire, so to speak, a little bit bigger, yeah, but not mad expansionism. And now I'm not so sure, and and it's also after some conversations with uh people who have access to intelligence that I don't have access to intelligence, that I don't have access to, and I respect their opinions greatly. Um, and I think that you know, but maybe as China realize, maybe they see that the West is in a relatively weak position politically, yeah. You know, the way and society and the society, the mess is a factor in it as well. Yeah, we're probably the weakest we've ever been capability-wise for decades and decades and decades and decades. Yeah, and that presents opportunities that you think Putin would have to be considering, have to be considering.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Europe's in disarray as well, politically. Yeah, you know, it's these are a real a real situation. Yeah, yeah. Can barely, we can barely barely we can barely organise and control ourselves internally, let alone fight a superpower like that. Yeah, I think they are a superpower, albeit a weakened one. Yeah. Weaker than they were before, you know.
SPEAKER_03They say, don't they, that that when when this war started with Russia and Ukraine, that the Russians could actually sustain themselves for ten years. So they were in a position to sustain themselves for ten years on their own to fight this war.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_03Really? And obviously they're three years in, you know, so more or less they've got another seven years where they could sustain.
SPEAKER_01That surprises me. You mean as in resources to keep their away going if they were sanctioned by everyone?
SPEAKER_03If they were sanctioned by everyone, and they're they've they've they they they could do this for ten years without any help off anybody, you know. So, you know, and and again, that's that's an achievement within itself when you're looking at the grand schemes of war and you know what they are actually capable of doing, you know, because and they are a superpower, you know, they're they're very capable, um, you know, which is concerning, but yeah, it's um when I thought that war couldn't get any worse, it's actually getting worse, you know, and and and I am starting to be concerned in regards to what's gonna happen next in Ukraine because there it doesn't seem to be ending. You know, there's no end to that war. You know, we we are now seeing the beginnings of the end of the Gaza and Israel war, you know, even though it will be slow, there seems to be progression going into the right direction. I don't see that in Ukraine, I see it getting worse and worse and worse, you know, with the drones flying over Poland falling into Moldova and neighbouring countries. That's only going to create problems, you know. If you look at what NATO are doing now with the jets, you know, putting them on patrol. You know, this is the first time this has happened since the war, you know, so it's going into the actual direction we don't want it to go into. And I've always said it just takes one idiot to make one wrong decision, and we're gonna find ourselves roped into a war somehow, you know, and in fact it's starting to concern me more than what it ever has done in Ukraine. Really? Yeah, really. Do you want to elaborate on that? Just with just how dangerous it's becoming, you know, and and with You mean it's spill over in Europe, you mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Don't even put words in your mouth, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no, no, it's exactly that's exactly what I think because and again, this is just everything that's based on what I'm seeing, you know. And on one hand, you may think, well, that'd be absolutely insane, but on the other, well, they're actually prodding because they are doing things that they've never done before.
SPEAKER_01You mean the Russians?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01In what way?
SPEAKER_03Putting drones over into NATO.
SPEAKER_01Okay, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's a stance. It's not just one or two that have accidentally gone over. You don't accidentally fly so many drones into Poland. That's done, that's done, that's a that's done purposely, you know. It's all a digital, all programmed digitally, aren't they? They know exactly what they're doing. So it's not one or two, it's actually quite a lot, you know, and um it just takes one idiot to do one stupid thing, you know, and and it's gonna change the whole dynamic sort of of this war.
SPEAKER_01How many Russian inclusions in European even missiles?
SPEAKER_03There's been Dow missiles, haven't there, in Poland?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Do you know what I mean? It's yeah, it's not just the odd drone, is it?
SPEAKER_01Um look at this. Okay. At least 15 Russian airspace violations have been recorded in the EU over recent weeks and months, involving both fighter jets and drones, with several additional incursions, additional incursions like LinkedIn Russia. Uh Poland, okay, let's go through these. Poland, on the 9th September, at least 19 Russian drones flew over Polish airspace, marking the first direct engagement with Russian assets since the start of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. This prompted Poland to invoke NATO's Article 4, leading to the launch of Operation Eastern Century. Estonia, on the 12th of September, three Russian MiG-31 jets crossed into Estonian airspace for 12 minutes before being forced to withdraw, prompting Estonia to also invoke NATO's Article 4. The list goes on, mate. Denmark and Norway. In late September, drones are spotted over five Danish airports, including Copenhagen and Aalborg, causing temporary closures. Norway's Oslo airport was also closed for three hours due to drone sightings. Danish and Norwegian authorities are investigating these incidents, which are suspected to be linked to Russia. Romania, on the 8th and 13th of September, Russian drones violated I did not know about all these Russian drones violated Romanian airspace during attacks on Ukraine, prompting the deployment of F-16 fighter jets to monitor the border. Lithuania, on the 28th of July, a drone crossing to Lithuanian airspace of Russia, later found armed with explosives in a military training area. Germany and France. Germany reported drone sightings near Schleswig-Holstein and Frankfurt Airport, while France detected unidentified drones over its Mormelon-Legrand military base. The European Parliament, on the initiative of Renew Europe, has debated a resolution urging swift and coordinated action to counter these escalating hybrid threats. I did not know about all those.
SPEAKER_03And that's not a mistake. They know exactly what they're doing. And they're letting them know that they can hit them if they want to. Yeah. Due to the significant movement of drones and missiles in the West. So yeah, you know, you didn't know that. You know, like this is stuff that we're just touching on. But if you actually look into it, it's quite worrying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is. Um that is very worrying. Indeed. God, just another concern you don't need. It's like, God, oh my it's another headache, innit? Let me just let me just worry about like the school run.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I get into the shop before it shuts at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. You know, and uh again, walking the dog where. You know, um the the the the media does this thing, I I despise mainstream media en masse generally. Right, I've got some good friends who are journalists and they know I think this, but I like them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh uh, but uh so anyway, and the media always is a good way of catastrophizing everything, and there's always a drama around the corner, and this is real, it's real, mate. It's very real, you know. Israel and Palestine, yeah, whatever. Uh you know, in the in la in in the terms of the threat to the UK, yeah, whatever. Okay, and it's real sad what's going on there. But when you think about Russia, you know, Russia threat to us, you know, China being very quiet, yeah, they will absolutely be involved in these things in different ways, you know, and and Russia and China get along very, very, very well. Yeah, you know. Um and then again, you look at how disorganized and and discontent, how disorganized our our gov our country is, or the UK is, and how disorganized Europe is, now disorganized the US is and Canada is, you know, and the the Western allies, so to speak. Yeah, right. And then how much social investors gone on, and just go back to a point earlier on, we couldn't organise a piss-up in a rural right now. We couldn't, you know, it's prime, it's prime prime time to strike if you wanted to. Prime time, mate. Prime time, yeah. Because we'd really struggle, especially when you think about over here in the UK, especially when you think about you know, we've got our own military problems, retention, recruitment. It's tiny anyway. Yeah, it's tiny anyway, and let alone then that this knowledge experience gap we've got. Yeah, you know, even if you called up the most experienced of us from those Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns, yeah, brought them back now, still massive knowledge gap. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to go stand in front of a drone. I'll go if I need to go and defend my country and defend my homeland and defend my kids, 100% put me there. I ain't gonna come off very well though.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know what I mean? You don't want to be getting chased by a drone, mate. No, because it'll catch you. No, you know, and you know what I I do a brief um and I've done a brief across the military called Battlefields of Ukraine, and and you know, and and I I've been into units where I've sort of sort of given like, you know, what type of brief do you want me to give? Do you want me to give the honest one? Or do you want me to give you the watered down one? And one particular unit said, I want you to be honest. So I briefed a battalion, and they were just in complete when I spoke to them about Ukraine and the and the dynamics that they could be walking into quite easily by someone making the decision we're now going to go to war. You could have heard a pin drop in that room, mate, by showing them videos of people that dress like them, who look like them. Well, this is the reality of it, mate. You know, so and I think a lot of people signed off after that brief, but you know, but fair play to them, they wanted a reality of what's actually going on, you know, and deadly silence, because I don't think soldiers today fully understand what they're potentially looking at. It's all TikTok, it's all social media driven, it's all you know, they don't see what's going on in front of them.
SPEAKER_01And that and and bec yeah, it's yeah, I agree, and and because you know, because these literary attacks and deaths are being live streamed and and easily uploaded to these platforms, it also completely desensitizes people to it. Including soldiers, including soldiers, because and and the the relevant the significance of that it means it the when you desensitize the impact of someone getting killed like that, then you tend to not be that concerned about the circum the uh the uh the implications of of that and and what leads to that, which means then you're not considering how to deal with that threat. Yeah, you're not paying attention, you know. And I think you you kind of get this all the time when a new conflict is starting up. It's not like now, this is this is a major change, yeah, major technology development, literally a a night-and-day change on how warfare has been conducted. Yeah, probably the the biggest in decades and decades. I mean, when was that when when was it I mean the the only the biggest change before this must be when when they moved from they moved from open like fighting to trench warfare back in the early 1900s, yeah, yeah, and then moved away from the first world war trench warfare style fighting into what we now understand as conventional or we did understand as conventional warfare in World War II. Yeah, this is bigger than that, yeah, you know, more impactful than that, arguably. Uh and and it is going to take an actual war until people start paying attention. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had this on that, you know, do you on that where you asked them, do you want the water down version or do you want the real version? And we had a similar situation when we were getting guys ready for Afghan early on, and we just come back from that 06 tour. I said that oh six that first, that Eric Fall, the first you know, there were three power went out on, and we came back, and up and up to that point, people, you know, they almost all of the military had never experienced combat in a vertical commas, yeah, yeah, or prolonged combat, repeated, you know, repeated firefights on a daily basis for that long. Yeah, and we we were getting the next unit ready to go out. I wasn't in the unit, but they you know, and and we went down to to train these guys, and because we had the benefit of just coming off a tour like this, and they were going through their normal, you know, beat-up training sessions, training sessions, training, uh, training programme for going out to to Afghan and they were just treating it like it was um some career course in Brecon or you know, some three weeks down in a live firing range, and we were looking at it going thinking if they go and behave like this out there, because they're not taking it seriously enough, yeah, because they don't understand, they've not experienced this actual kind of fighting, yeah. Uh they're gonna fucking die. Um and and uh they're gonna lots of them gonna die and come off real bad. And and and they asked us to not scare them. We specifically said don't scare them with it. And this one unit, we would it was a battalion, and two weeks we were them for, and we got a week into it, week 10 days into it, and I was talking to one of the company Sergeant Majors, and he was pulling his hair out because he he had been out, uh and he knew that they were gonna have problems. And he trying to say, You like, don't butter it up for them anymore, just tell them tell them straight. And I stood in there with these with the these three other guys from three three power in there, and we didn't want to scare them, but also we wanted to prepare them for going out there. We knew it was gonna happen if they did it, and it was things like yeah, first aid training, they weren't first aid skills, they weren't paying attention to it. Like, you're gonna need by the way, your team medics who you just put through some random shit normally for the last 10-15 years, you're actually gonna need them. Yeah, you're gonna either gonna need to do stuff, and you know, uh, it's not get down on one need to look at the map, it's getting your fucking belt back, he's no pretending anymore, yeah. You know, going through the motions, and we stood and we stood in the room with his company and we the three of us up there, and we told them straight like you carry on doing what you're doing and the way you're doing it. We've been repeated to saying to you, improve these things. A lot of you're gonna not come back, you know, again, because you're a fucking pin drop, mate. Yeah, but it changed things, yeah. It made them then that the remainder of that training, they actually started paying attention because they need to be frightened to it, you need you need to frighten people, give them a reality check. You can't fuck about in war, mate. No, you can't fuck about chance, aren't you? You can't, and I but again, you can't really understand the implications of it until you've experienced it. You know, I wouldn't want to go out in Ukraine and do what you're doing, and you're not even out there as a soldier.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't want to do it, mate, because of this strong threat that I don't understand at all, let alone go and be a soldier there. Yeah, yeah. No, thank you. No, that I don't need that in my life.
SPEAKER_03I don't need it in my life. It's meant yeah, it's bad, it's bad, mate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so fair does to you, mate. Fair does to you, you know. Because it's an important job, media protecting the media. I truly believe it as much as I fucking hate them. If they weren't there, we wouldn't get any any information at all, you know, apart from first-person view from John Foot. Yeah, yeah. But um, what have we not covered? Did you have anything you wanted to cover that we haven't covered? I know you didn't come in with a list of things, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, no, just basically, yeah, um more or less, uh, you know, one of your questions on the icebreaker was um uh the uh this the star realities of what its psychological effects it's had on children. Well that was one of the questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh just want to touch on that. Where um in 2022 I was asked to do security for ITV, um filming a documentary called Children of Ukraine. Um it was aired on ITV, and basically it was a documentary um based on the psychological um impact that the war has had on children. So from February up until August time, you know, I've been working with journalists, some of the biggest stars in the industry, you know, sort of getting them into places, we're gonna get this story in, out, done, back home, having a brew, doing whatever we did until the next day. You know, where more or less we were doing this documentary, and it was a documentary on children. And instead of going in and out and doing what we were doing, we're going in and staying in, you know, and we're actually embedded um with these children that are in orphanages, who have lost their parents, who have been subject to some of the most horrific crimes, you know, which were done by Russian soldiers to them, you know, and and we did this documentary and we travelled the whole country interviewing kids. Um, and it was really, really sad, you know. And I always remember I got offered to come to the screen in London, actually. Um and I was desensitised from I was there to do a job, we're there to work. So when I was there to work, sort of the emotional impact didn't affect me because I had some people to look after. But in fact, when I come to the documentary, the screening of the documentary in London, within the first two minutes of it coming on, the big security guy who's meant to be the tough one was the first one blubbering because what I was seeing was the most horrific thing that I'd that I'd seen since I've been in Ukraine maybe because of my dad and compassionate towards kids and all that type of stuff. So I always remember walking out and a film director. Um, they were all outside. I said, Listen, I'm gonna go back to Ukraine. She said, Oh, great, you know what? I said, I'm gonna go back to see the kids. I'm gonna go and you said that, yeah, gonna go and take them some Christmas presents. I was just like, Well, and this was like October type, literally had six weeks to prep this trip. It was planned on the back of a fag packet, mate. It was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go. Don't really know I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna go. And that's what I did, you know. So in December of 2022, managed to get a truck, managed to get a van, packed them full of presents, and drove to Ukraine from the UK and drove around the whole of Ukraine, finding these kids that we've done these documentaries with and to give them Christmas presents. And it's the most satisfying, most rewarding thing that I've ever done, you know, and then I've continued to do it, and it's actually turned into a project. So, you know, I've done this about eight times now where I've been back into back and to to Ukraine. Um, and the project's- Are you going to the same kids every time?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the same places, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, we we we we go to different places, but more or less. So this year, what we're going to be doing this year is we're actually going to looking for the kids that we sort of lost touch with. So after we did it the first time, the project sort of grew arms and legs, and I was doing work with other sort of external humanitarian agencies to come and assist because I knew the country that well, and it had access into so many different areas where impactfully we could go in and help. Because what happens is a lot of people take aid to Ukraine, but in fact, they take it to the border of Ukraine, they take all the glory, saying we've been to Ukraine, where in fact this stuff is more or less stolen, it's robbed, and it's not going to the people. And I've I've got a stance where no matter what we take, I will take it direct to source to the people. So we sort of developed so many relationships with orphanages, children's hospitals, we've got children into safe spaces where we've got them from really dangerous areas and pulled them back into with the connections that we knew internally inside the country. And yeah, like I said, I've I've continued to do this for the past three years. Um, where this year, you know, so and when I said to you, I'm going back to Ukraine in the next couple of weeks, is we're actually going to go back with a little bit of a different stance where yes, we're going to go back to the orphanages that we always provide help for, but we're also going to go looking for the kids that we've lost touch with, you know, in in Donbass, in Kharkiv, you know, these kids were so traumatised by what had happened to them. A lot of them lived in Mariupol, you know, and we all know what happened in Mariupol. And, you know, that's the set sole aim for the trip this year. So we're going to be leaving the UK around Christmas time, and we're going to drive into Ukraine, and we're just going to go on this mental mission, mate, to find these kids and to go and give them a present just to say we've not forgotten about you. You know, and and when I said when you said to me, What do you think helps children? Well, what helps them is showing up, you know, and when you show up and and you tell a child that you're going to be turning up, as long as you turn up and you and you're compassionate, that's all the kid wants. You know, they just want you to turn up and keep to your word. You know, and I've always said to these children, you know, that I will always be there and I'll always come back and support you. And that's the sole aim of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to achieve. So, and that that's a project called Children of Ukraine. You know, that's something that I set up. Who's doing that with you? Say again, who's doing it with you? Me. Um, there's going to be me, my colleague, um Danny, I like called Danny Mail, who who was I met him in the on the circuit, and then um and then Amanda, who's a firefighter. She has a huge passion for humanitarian work. So she's going to be joining us this year.
SPEAKER_01So so yeah, mate. That is that is amazing, right? Um, you know, I I I think there's so many charitable organizations out there. Yeah. Uh I think there are too many. I think that most of them don't do a good job that they're doing. I think they get too big to be able to, you know, these a lot of them start off out with honest intents, a lot of them don't. Yeah. You know, uh, and they get too big, and I think that the impact of what they they can do is really watered down. Uh so when you get a a group of people like yourself with that initiative to go out and do something like this, where it's it's small, it's target is is specific, and it is absolutely impactful, guaranteed, measurable. You know you're changing lives there, massive, especially for kids, mate.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Especially for kids, it's it's hugely important. Yeah, hugely important, you know. Um what happens, how Ukraine turns out who who has what areas now it turns out. I don't really care. I don't really care. I I I I really don't, to be honest. Um I do care about the impact of little people's lives though, yeah, you know, and anyone in their right mind does whether they're a a dad or not. Um, you know, uh why wouldn't you? Yeah, you know, why wouldn't you? So um commendable, mate. It's mega doing that and going out there, especially as you know how significant the threat is. Yeah, you know, and uh anything you can do with support with that, let me know. You know, and uh if is there a way that people can support what you're doing? Like, how can people help you do that?
SPEAKER_03So I um obviously I I I can give you my my socials and stuff. Um, but yeah, you know, sort of any sort of help, financial help, or you know, if people want to donate, you know, whether that's physical or financially, um, I'll give you my uh social media details and it'll be on there.
SPEAKER_01You know, okay, I'll put well the social media details in the blurb of this podcast, so you'll find Steve's stuff now in there. Um anything else? I think we've covered everything, mate. Covered a lot, mate. We covered a lot. Mega, listen, um, it's a pleasure to know you, mate. I'm really glad that we met, you know, last year doing that. I'm really glad we can make this work. Nice giving your time. Yeah, um, good luck to the team going at this. Stay safe, man. Stay safe. And um listen, get back in your get back, get back in your after. Yeah, more than it'd be great to hear the story about how this goes and um and the impact you made. Uh, you're welcome back anytime. Thank you, mate. And uh thanks for having me. No worries, mate. Cool. Cheers, pal. That's it. If you enjoyed this episode, why not become a Hey Chour patron? Patrons will get access to all of the episodes before anyone else, they get advanced viewing of the episodes, and you also get other perks and bonuses. All of the information is on charliecharlie1.com. Just hit the menu item, become a patron. It'll show you everything there, including access to the Heych Hour Discord community and private patron only channels on there. So go to charliecharlie1.com and hit the menu item, become a patron. Easy peasy. Thank you for being a supporter. Subscribe to the channel, and I will catch you on the next episode. Thank you.