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“I’ve never seen death like that”
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For H-Hour perks, join the H-Hour Discord guild: https://discord.com/invite/KCb54MQNxd and follow H-Hour Hugh on X: https://x.com/HughKeir In this H-Hour Icebreaker, a preview to the full podcast, former soldier Steve Holland shares gripping accounts from Ukraine, offering profound insights into bravery and the harsh realities of modern warfare. He delves into the advancements in drone and robotic warfare, the emotional impact of war, and the importance of compassion, especially towards traumatized children. The episode also examines the moral complexities of showing empathy for enemy soldiers and understanding the strategic mind of leaders like Putin. This short intro to #273 provides an unfiltered exploration of life on the frontlines and the valuable lessons learned from the battlefield.
Steve Holland is a former soldier with tours including in Northern Ireland, Iraq, and Afghanistan. After leaving the army in 2014, he worked in close protection, returning to Iraq and Afghanistan for diplomatic and oil contracts. In 2022, he supported CNN and The New York Times in Ukraine, observing a WWII-like conflict transformed by drones and modern tech. He founded “Children of Ukraine,” a charity delivering aid and relocating children from danger and into safe spaces. Now, as Security Manager in Gaza for a global humanitarian aid organisation, he ensures staff safety and decision making in the delivery of food supplies to millions.
Steve's fundraising link for his Children of Ukraine initiative: https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/steven-holland-699?utm_term=X2GynXaNE&utm_medium=FA&utm_source=CL
Hello, welcome back to Hey Chour. This icebreaker is with Steve Holland. If if you want to submit questions for future guests and subject them to these questions, as Steve is going to be subjected to questions in a minute, you need to become a patron of the podcast to do so. And you will get access to the upcoming guest list. You will get access to uh live feeds when they're available, and you'll be able to submit questions ahead of time and during the live feeds for the guest, and they will get asked during the episode. Uh, the to do that, go to patreon.com forward slash hk podcast or go to huecare.substack.com. It doesn't cost a lot. You can become a patron for as little as£3.50 a month. Less than the cost of a Starbucks. I'm better than a Starbucks because Starbucks is shit and you get a lot more value for money when you pay for Hugh, not for caffeine. Anyway, on to the icebreaker, Steve Holland. Welcome to Hey Chower. Hello, mate. Hello, mate. Hello, mate. Question number one from uh most of these questions from Coke, uh, the patron, Paul Coke. What is the bravest thing? Oh, look at this. You gotta you have to not be modest here now. What is the bravest thing you've done? I've not looked at this question before. What is the bravest thing you've done and the bravest act you've witnessed? So, what have you done and what have you witnessed? And mate, I know that ex-military have a problem with complimenting themselves, right? But feel free to be open and honest. You've been asked the question, you're not volunteering this information about yourself. Go for it.
SPEAKER_01So the bravest thing I've done. That's a horrible question. God, what a horrible question that is. Um I think in more in recent times, really, you know, with my involvement in Ukraine, and I and I wouldn't, I don't really want to say it's the you know, it I think the bravest I've seen people do a lot of brave things, you know, and I think Ukraine was a was a test it was a testing point, you know, in regards to pushing the boundaries on on limits of being brave, you know, with some of the things that we were doing out there. And um I think some of the bravest things that I've uh oh god, a horrible question. Um bravest things that I've been a part of it is is getting teams into certain areas of Ukraine, you know, so the world could see, you know, what was happening out there. Media teams. Media teams, yeah. Um, you know, a bit of a backdrop that that you know, sort of when the war broke out in February 2022, um I was working for CNN um and then I moved on to the New York Times, you know, sort of the year after that. But sort of working in Donbass, you know, for the last two years and some of the things that we've done, you know, things things that I've been very uncomfortable with doing to for editorial value, you know, of for to get the story out to the world of what was really happening out in Ukraine. Um, you know, and think I can't actually pinpoint a moment, but I remember testing my personal limits on pushing the boundaries, you know, of and I I do recall areas of working in a place called Bakhmut in Donbass, you know, moving into areas where which was incredibly dangerous, you know, not only from sort of artillery and bombardments, but there was a huge increase on drone warfare back then. Um, you know, I think some of the bravest and courageous things that I've just done, but but the teams have done is actually getting into these areas to report things. And I can't really go into specifics, but I think moments in Ukraine have tested, you know, and and and I've seen the braveness and courage of not only from myself but other people as well, journalists more than anything, uh, with their sort of um passion of getting a story out to people, you know.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, don't really know if that answers your question, but it has, and you skirt around giving an actual example about yourself. Well, that is in modesty there, no, I know. I totally get it. Totally get it, it's probably a million things, and we'll talk more about Ukraine on the main pod if that's all right. Yeah, yeah, okay, cool. Um, question two from Koch What's the most important lesson about the Ukrainian war the UK military should learn?
SPEAKER_01Drone warfare. Um the advancement of modern day technologies, the advancement of drone warfare, the robotic warfare that we seem to find ourselves in now, being used to working in a conventional setting that mirrors and echoes World War II in colour, but a lot more vicious, a lot more dangerous. Um, trench warfare, you know, it isn't what we deem it to be. It's relentless, you know. And you know, if the military, British military, were going to take Ukraine serious, um, you know, I would definitely take away the advancement of robotic war and trench warfare because that is what Ukraine is, you know, gone the days where you know you've got soldiers sort of advancing on an axis, you know, and sort of moving towards the enemy type of thing, you know. The battlefield is a very lonely place in Ukraine, you know, and it's dominated by drones, and it was dominated by not just air drones, but land drones, drones by sea. Um, it's a frightening place to be, especially with the advancements of AI as well.
SPEAKER_00Frightening definitely want to talk more about that, Steve. 100%. Uh okay. Question three from Coke. Physically and mentally, what's the best way to help a this is Coke? This is random. What is the best way to help a traumatised child by turning up and showing up and showing compassion?
SPEAKER_01Um, as you know, you you know, I've worked um very closely with children in Ukraine for the past three years. It's a project that I set up.
SPEAKER_00Um I I have I forgotten something yet? We'll have to come on to that as well. Okay, I apologize. Coke knows something I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Um and to help a child during a traumatic experience is actually showing compassion and keeping to your word. And if you say you're gonna turn up, turn up. Um that's actually very relevant for something that I've got up and coming in the next couple of months. Um but yeah, compassion, mate, and keeping to your word. And it works, yeah, it really does.
SPEAKER_00Uh have you performed really badly in a in a crucial situation? If yes, how did it impact you?
SPEAKER_01I think as soldiers, mate, I think we are all guilty of critiquing ourselves. Um, I am, you know, and sort of the after-action review you give yourself when you've done something, you know. I I I kick myself all the time, you know, in in in stuff where I could have done that better. Did it work? Yeah. Did we achieve the aim? Yeah. Uh but I think a lot of us are guilty of that. And do I say I've performed badly? No, but I know I could have improved in a lot of areas, areas where people didn't even see, you know, um, using Gaza, using Ukraine, using my time in the military, you know, Afghanistan and Iraq. You know, of course we could always do things better, but um I've never got my you know, I've never got myself into a situation where it's gone terribly wrong. I've always managed to pull myself out of the shit, you know, once we found ourselves in that situation. Um, but I definitely could have done a lot of things better, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh okay, another question. Uh how does how does how do the war zones you've been in compare to each other? So you mentioned Afghanistan and Iraq, obviously Gaza as well, and Ukraine. Yeah. How do they compare to each other? Do any stand out as different? Are there any are there any similarities between any of them?
SPEAKER_01No, I think they're all different in their own way. You know, going back to the earlier days in Iraq, you know, sort of fighting the cities and doing all but all, you know, with fighting, being in Bajra, you know, and all those areas, they're moving into Afghanistan where a lot of it's rural. Um, you know, where coming away from Afghanistan and stepping into Ukraine, you know, where Ukraine, like I said to you before, you know, you move from a rural to an urban environment very quickly. You know, I think you know, I was a part of the biggest counter-offensive since World War II, you know, when the Ukrainians went on their offensive in 2022, and I moved from a rural to an urban setting, which was fascinating to be a part of and to watch, you know, in the first view in real life. Um, but then you move back into Gaza, you know, Gaza mirrors Iraq in a way. Um the the similarities of how it looks the same, you know, but it's very different, you know, and very small and a lot more dangerous. Um so I'd say they they're all different in their own little way, but if I was to compare Iraq to Gaza, similar, but um, I would say Gaza was um much more dangerous than Iraq.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh okay. How does being around death change how you live your life?
SPEAKER_01I think you become very grateful for what you've got. Um, you know, I think we're, you know, well, with the job that I do, death is quite a normal thing, you know. And you know, I think being a soldier in probably one of the busiest times, you know, we've seen post-World War II, you know, when when we were in uh with the Iraq and Afghanistan campaign, that comes part and parcel with your job. And we all know the consequences of our actions. But then when you move into the civilian environment and you're still continuing sort of work that mirrors military, sort of a military setting. You know, when I went to Ukraine, I'd never seen death like that. The amount of death over there. Um it's just it's you can't even explain, you know, the amount of dead bodies we've seen, soldiers, civilians, whether they were Ukrainian or Russians. You know, and again, not only do you show compassion, you know, because we were very similar to these people one once a time, you know, we were soldiers, and I think you naturally show that compassion to these people, but it definitely changed my life, you know, in regards to how grateful I am to be in here, um, how important life is. But, you know, with the jobs that we do comes at high risk, you know, and it sort of puts you in your box a little bit, you know, and and when I mean that, you know, when you're willing to take risk, which is high risk, to achieve an aim, whether that's an editorial game for um the media teams, or whether that's a risk that you're willing to take to feed 2.1 million people in Gaza, you know, you you always put into consideration that you're only one wrong decision away from being a part of the statistics, you know, these people that are being killed. So, but it's made me respect life a lot more than what I did prior to doing these jobs.
SPEAKER_00I can imagine. I can imagine. Uh I mean that's that's one of the things you can't hide from at the minute. You can't deny at the minute, is especially with Ukraine's concern, the amount of uh just absolutely over a million soldiers, mate. Yeah, but it's all being fucking live streamed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's crazy.
SPEAKER_01It's mental, mate. Yeah, it's unbelievable. You know, and and then and go when we go on to Ukraine when I talk about robotic war in AI, you know, like you can't run away from that shit. You know, and and some of these drone operators out there, you know, six to eight hundred confirmed kills, you know, like it's just unbelievable the amount of people that they're killing on a video screen. It's mental, mate. It's mental.
SPEAKER_00Uh do you uh do you have any sympathy for Russian troops? Yes.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Because I don't agree with some of the things that they do, and and but I've I'm on one side of the fence, I've not been on the other. I'm not brave enough to do that. But you know, with some of the things that they have done, which I know they have done, you know, when we look at the uh beginning of the war in Kiev and Boucher and Barodianka, the atrocities of Irping, absolutely horrific. But do I have compassion? Absolutely, you know, they're just human beings, and I'm pretty sure that we're all sat in a room and remove the war uh aspect from it, we'd all have a drink and have a laugh, and we'd be normal human beings. We we can all relate to being a soldier. Um, so absolutely, I do show compassion for Russian soldiers. Um but on the on the other, you know, on the other side of things, you know, I I don't agree with a lot of things that they do. Um but who am I to say that? You know, I'm not in their position, am I?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh yeah, no, I I know I know what you mean. Um I know what you mean. I I can't imagine that the Ukrainians have been following every letter of the international law of armed conflict, you know what I mean? Uh that's not to that is not to excuse what the Russians have been doing, yeah. Uh but to look from the outside in gives you a certain perspective, right? Yeah, it's easy to sit there with your rose-tinted spectacles and go, oh, this and that, and this and that. Yeah, on a grand scale, yeah, the atrocities not absolutely should not happen. Yeah, but um, I think yeah, uh any soldier around the world, uh soldier sailor, air man, airwoman, um, there's definitely element of compassion there for what you know that they are being either forced to do or putting themselves forward to do.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you know, uh it's very easy to sit on sit at a distance and and make opinions based on a narrative, you know, and that's something I've become very aware of, especially working within the media space um prior to going to um Gaza, but but absolutely, you know, there's two sides to a story, and it's very easy to base an opinion on a one-sided version. I think if we move to the other side, things might be different, you know, but we can base it upon what we see.
SPEAKER_00A real interesting exercise to do, which could never be done really in the way you'd want to do it, but I I think is I I think if you went and were able to sit down and survey each like a couple of hundred Russian soldiers, right? Russian military, and ask and you know, and ask questions like do you believe in what you're doing? Uh why are you doing it? Why did you join up? You'd have mirror uh for most, I think you'd have very similar answers to what we would give. Yeah. You know, do you believe in what you're doing? Well most most British soldiers, I'd argue, like the default is yeah, but they haven't really thought about it. They only do what they're doing because they joined up and that's what they're supposed to do. Yeah, right? And literally what it is, isn't it? Yeah. And then you got others who join because they had no other option. And then, well, in the case of Russia, you got conscription over there, haven't you? Yeah. But I think for the most part, it would be you know, they haven't joined up to kill people.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00You know, they joined up to serve the country or because they've been forced to. Yeah, you know, and uh and and when you and you look at it at that granular level, you're saying it's very difficult not to have compassion for them. Yeah, you know, and it's that sort of micro level on the on the on the level of the individual. Yeah, yeah. You know, uh what do you think about what do you think? Another question from Koch. Uh is there anything positive about Putin?
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's a good question. Um, I f I you know, I think he's a very clever man. Um, you know, listen, I I get it, you know. Uh and without trying to get too involved in the political stance and the reasons for, you know, he's got his view, you know, the West have got their view. Um, do I think he's stupid? No, I think he's far from it. Um, but it's really hard to baste on if there's any policy if there's any going to be any positivity from from this war that we're seeing, which is more or less creeping over to the West. And, you know, I think we could very easily find ourselves, you know, roped into this if things don't stop. I think that side of things is pretty stupid because that's only going to create a negative response, you know, with the drones coming into Poland. And I know there's a reasoning behind all this, far beyond of what I can talk about, but um it's hard to give a positive um answer, but but I think respectfully, you know, I think he he knows what he's doing, and I think he's playing a clever game, you know, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it makes sense. Makes sense, yeah, makes total sense. Uh okay, that is the end of the icebreaker. We've got more questions there, which have been uh they've been requested to be asked during the main podcast, so I'll do that. Uh if you are listening to this episode on your podcast app, this is going to roll over into the next episode in the playlist from Hey, which is the full podcast with Steve. And like I said, at the start of this, if you want to sub question, submit questions for future guests, if you want to support the podcast, support me, become a patron. The link to become a patron is in the blurb. That's it for now. Enjoy the full episode. Episode number two hundred and seventy three. And we are