Uncovering Forgotten Treasures: The White Shadow

Carlos Figueroa and co-host Joe Riley introduce the Forgotten Television podcast, where they revisit beloved but overlooked childhood TV shows, starting with The White Shadow. They share their St. Louis Park, Minnesota background, youth sports history, and careers (Carlos, an attorney and writer/podcaster; Joe in publishing), and connect the series to their love of basketball. They discuss how limited TV options in the late 1970s made the show “appointment” viewing. Carlos and Joe outline the premise of the show in which actor Ken Howard plays injured pro player Ken Reeves, who transitions to a South-Central L.A. high school basketball coach, and note the plot quirks from the pilot. They highlight the show’s serious themes, diverse team cast, and key production facts (54 episodes, Bruce Paltrow, Steven Bochco, MTM). They also trade memories of sports TV movies, mention an ESPN TV promo (found at this link), touch on Timberwolves-Nuggets playoffs, and preview covering select episodes rather than a full rewatch.

00:00 Welcome to Forgotten Television
00:45 Meet Carlos and Joe
02:16 Why White Shadow Matters
04:37 Pilot Setup and Plot Holes
07:09 Sports TV Trivia Time
11:05 Serious Themes and Realism
15:28 Show Overview and Cast
18:16 Locker Room Songs and Legacy
20:29 Basketball Lifelong Connection
23:13 Podcast Format and Future Shows
24:00 Wolves Talk and Wrap Up
26:42 Next Episode Tease and Goodbye

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Carlos Figueroa, and welcome to the Forgotten Television Podcast. Along with my co-host Joe Riley, we're gonna explore some of the shows that you loved as a kid and have forgotten. We're gonna start out with one of our favorites, The White Shadow. So join us.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I want to introduce myself. You know, uh Joe and I know each other. We grew up in the wonderful city of St. Louis Park, Minnesota, and we played youth sports together as well as uh attended uh junior high school together. And uh I'm an attorney by trade, but I've kind of later in life here started to do some writing and some creative work and creating some podcasts. Hold on here. And we are very excited about this new show that Joe and I are starting. We're calling it the Forgotten Television podcast. But before we get into that, Joe, tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yep, I'm Joe Riley. I grew up like Carlos in St. Louis Park. Uh if uh you listen to their their park bench episodes of their uh the podcast he does with Mike Hammer. Um Carlos is from uh North St. Louis Park. I'm from Central sort of St. Louis Park, and I grew up there. And um I've been in the publishing business for a number of years, but like Carlos, I played sports for a number of years, and that's how Carlos and I got together, and I knew of Carlos before I got to know Carlos because back in the uh back in the day when uh there was enough kids in those times, uh I was at the Park Central Little League All-Star Game, and we played the Park National All-Stars, and there was this giant uh first baseman with a mustache at the tender age of twelve. So, and that was how I first uh came across Carlos Figueroa.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yep, and uh and the ball fields and then the basketball court. And uh, you know, I think that what brought us together to do this podcast is our love of basketball, at least at the early age when I played. I think you probably carried forth a greater love for the game into adulthood than I have, but we'll let uh listeners decide that. But the show that we have picked to start out with talking about on our Forgotten Television podcast is The White Shadow.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yes, The White Shadow. It came out uh November 27th, which was a Monday in uh 19 uh seventy-nine, and uh it was uh, or was it 78? 78, 78 was the uh I would have been right before my 13th birthday, three weeks. And so this was sort of appointment must see TV at the time for for Carlos and I. And I, who was a big basketball player, I played uh with Carlos on the traveling team in St. Louis Park, and then also in high school, and then I also played two years in college. So basketball has always sort of been an important uh piece for me, too, as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

And uh, you know, Joe knows me. I, you know, my parents are from Cuba, so I grew up in a baseball household. But at a very, very young age, I was very tall. Um, as Joe said, I was the 12-year-old with the mustache at first base. So I you know, I basketball was came easy to me because you know I may have had a uh a 10% shooting percentage, but I got all my own rebounds. So uh, you know, I love basketball at the time, and then there was a show. I mean, you know, TV at that time, there I don't think people realize there weren't very many options.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

There weren't. And uh back then, as I was telling Carlos earlier, there was just a few channels 11, 9, 5, 4, and 2, which was the PBS uh station, and uh I we didn't get a uh VHS player until 1985. So in 78, you either watched the show live on Monday nights or you saw it summertime and reruns. So that was kind of how you looked at this too, as well. So and being a sports guy.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

But I you know, at 13, the concept of TV seasons and TV schedules and reruns, uh, you know, I mean, I wasn't exactly following it. There's a lot more important stuff to figure out when you're 13 years old.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

You know, if you missed it, you you probably missed it, and there was nothing beyond that. But White Shadow was appointment television for me. I thought that they were the coolest guys. And let's let's maybe talk about what the show is. The White Shadow uh starred an actor by the name of Ken Howard. Um you probably recognize Ken Howard if you saw him, he was been in numerous things. He stars in the show. In the shows, he's a professional basketball player who, due to an injury, can no longer play professional basketball. And so an old college friend of his who happens to be the principal of a high school in South Central Los Angeles somehow talks him into moving from Chicago to Los Angeles and uh being the basketball coach of this group of misfits, we'll say.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yeah. And the first plot hole is when the uh principal comes and visits uh our good friend Ken Reeves in Chicago. It's the middle of winter, and they refer to it as such in the show. And of course, uh Ken doesn't uh you don't start basketball in the middle of winter. So the next thing you know, he's starting to coach, and it must be the next fall, but uh not really much is said about uh that big time gap between winning.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

That's what bothered you. What bothered me is how quickly he goes from being an NBA coach, hey, I'm gonna or an NBA player to hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna be because I don't know. I'm gonna guess that high school basketball coaches in Los Angeles in 1979 made, I don't know, 18 grand a year. I would imagine the Bulls paid more, but maybe he budgeted his money and it wasn't an issue. So that's it.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

The other thing, and and you know, we've d we've dived into the pilot, and we'll come back and give it some uh some uh proper attention. But one thing that bothered me, the thing that bothered me most, and these are things that when I was 13 went way over my head, he goes out as he's lamenting the end of his NBA career out on the court in a full suit, you know, which is you know all right. I mean, a lot of players, you know, uh dress up nice, but he's in his dress shoes and he's on the court. And that's a no-no. You don't do that. That's everybody knew you don't wear your dress shoes on the basketball court, and that really bothered me. And I don't think I noticed it when I was uh 13 years old.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Funny you should mention that, because when I watched it recently, that was it it gave me a little twinge like boy, would whoever the janitor was get all over me if that was those black marks are hard, they're hard to get out. So, but no, it's uh being crazy about sports, this is why that show was important to me. And we didn't have a lot of sports shows that were preceded this, but there were some. So I wanted to kind of give Carlos a little bit of uh some some some trivia, some of the sports uh ones. And I'm gonna start with a basketball one in fairly obscure. Okay. Do you prefer that I give you the title of the show or give you the description and see if you can name the show? You know what? I'm gonna go with the description. All right, that's a good choice. All right, so this was just an an hour-long show of uh all different types of stories, but this one happened to be about basketball. And the description is a high schooler, Judge Reinhold of you know Beverly Hills cop frame.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Sure. I would I I would have gone with uh Fast Times at Ridgemont High, but yeah, same guy.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yep, becomes good friends with shy new classmate, Jeannie Maury, who has just come with her family from Vietnam. Through their tightly knit friendship, she opens up and realizes the struggles that she and her family face as they adapt to the American culture, inspired by her story, but blinded by what only the two of them understand on a humanitarian level. He writes an acoustic guitar song he titles A Step Too Slow. And just to explain that, he is on the basketball team, and in junior year he was a star. But with some new players coming on board, they want to go run and gun, and he gets cut. And so this is his creative outlet.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Can I ask what year this year?

SPEAKER_02 8:38

1981.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Man.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

The answer has already been given to you by uh in the description.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

I got nothing. I got nothing.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

A step too slow. It's a jang, it's a jangly tune. I can't, I don't know if this is on uh uh but that's too as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Was that just like was it it that was like the name of the show, and then they had lots of different stories.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yeah, different stories, but not about basketball, but it could be about anything too as well. Another big one that yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Oh no, the only the only real basketball representation I remember from the area era is from a movie, the Robbie Benson movie. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh the now escapes my name, but basically talking about NCA violations is what they did. One-on-one, maybe?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

One-on-one, correct. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

That was that was a fun movie. The basketball was kind of eh, which I think Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

I'll give you some quick ones here, too. So then there's James Conn and Billy D. Williams starred as Chicago Bears. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

That's Brian's song, my friend. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Oh, yes, 1971. Did you know it was that early?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

I knew it was early 70s, but 71 is probably earlier. I would have guessed probably 72 or 73.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

All right. The next one was the film stars Michael Moriarty as Henry Wigan, the team star pitcher, and Robert De Niro is Bruce Pearson, his ill-fated catcher and close friend. And this was sort of the follow-up to Brian's song and kind of the uh arc of sort of the sad movie.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Really? Yeah, I I'm gonna I'm gonna go with the Roy Campanella story.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

No, it is was called Bang the Drum Slowly.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Bang the Drum Slowly, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

1973. And then um this is based on the true story about the relationship between Penn State football player John Cappellietti Jr. and his younger brother Joey, who has leukemia.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

And then that one was 1977 Something for Joey. Something for Joey. All right. And that was another one that kind of was a big one for me. And then the last one I'll just talk about was another after-school special television show starring Scott Bale and Lance Kerwin as hockey players. And that was the boy who drank too much.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Oh, one of those after school specials. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

So these were these were sort of the ones that were formative, and then you took it where it was all basketball and all one thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, it was something else. And that we didn't have words for it, but it was much more the plots were much better than a lot of the shows. I mean, it was prestige television before prestige television. You know, I mean, they you know, they there was substance abuse, there was, you know, police and African-American interaction, there's, you know, whatever youthful problems and and school problems, and you know, I mean, they it was a silly TV show from the 70s, but some pretty uh hardcore topics they tackled, you know. I mean, it wasn't just fluff, you know, it wasn't uh solve a murder in in 25 minutes kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah, and then there was even humor attached to some of that seriousness. And as you know, by the end of the uh pilot, Coolidge is uh arrested for borrowing a car.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yes, that is exactly it. I actually I remember and I have no idea where it is. I don't remember it was not Coolidge, I think it was Thorpe, but may have been Haywood, they got arrested for shoplifting a hibachi stove. Oh yeah, I'm trying to think about the logistics of stealing a hibachi stove. And your reaction is Ken Ken Reeves' reaction. He's just like, come on.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Exactly. And you know, it's amazing. Go ahead, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Let me ask you this, because I do not have well, I have sort of proof, but I feel like the conversations between the coach and teachers and authorities to let things slide, let a guy play, you know, let's not worry about grades so much. I have a feeling that those are based on real conversations.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

You know, it was kind of shocking a little bit, right? How the vice principal, Joan Pringle, the woman who's very difficult but with a heart of gold that comes up. She's uh one of the characters who played in all 54 episodes. Um made the bad grades disappear because of the mere fact that, hey, if we take basketball away for them, what are they gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

You know, I actually um I had heard stories. There were I'm not gonna name any names, but if anybody wanted to do the research and follow the thread of this, they wouldn't have a hard time picking it up. But our high school, you went to the the the Catholic school in town, but our public high school had some pretty famous athletes, including some that played professionally and were very outstanding in high school. The story goes, and once again, this is the story, this is nothing that I have documented. But the story goes that he didn't have to do any homework. People either did it for him or he got grades. And I don't not shocked by that because after after I had graduated, I had a strong relationship with a teacher, and he needed something for he was doing something about don't drink and drive, whatever the kids' version of that is, and he needed some graphics, and I had access to some of my dad's equipment, so I made it. So I'm at the high school, you know, right after classes end, you know, I I've already graduated. I'm bringing that stuff in the print, and the counselor kind of steps into the office and says to the teacher, Well, what are we gonna do about you know Susie? It's like, well, I don't know. She didn't, you know, she didn't do the work. It's like if you fail her, you know, she's just not gonna come back. He's like, What are you telling me? He goes, Well, if you fail her, she's not gonna come back. So you may as well just pass her so she can have the degree. I, this was not an athlete, but I was witness to that conversation. And so I firmly believe that that, particularly, you know, um thinking about I don't know, high school football in Texas, that somebody doesn't get benched because they got a D in English. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah, there were stories back in 1984, even like uh Creighton University in in uh Nebraska used to be a big powerhouse basketball. Yeah, they kind of ended basketball for a while because uh one of their players had to go back to the third grade and learn how to read. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

So all those things, especially in that era of time, was um I I always like to take time whenever I have an audience, even if it's an audience of one, to rail against the NCAA. Um and so I'm gonna continue to rail against the NCAA because they are making millions off of kids and they don't give a damn about them. Um I'm uh, you know, all these sports make money for people, and uh it's just not getting uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Should should we take a step back and kind of give a nice big overview of the White Shadow other than the cover?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, absolutely. Why don't you why don't you take a crack at that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

So Ken Reeves is the coach, he as Carlos mentioned, was played for the Bulls, comes to Central South Los Angeles, and there's a large recurring cast of characters uh who are his players. There's African Americans, which is the majority, but they also have some Mexican Americans too as well. A few Caucasian kids, a Caucasian Jewish kid, too as well, is on the team. So it's a veritable United Nations on this particular team. And um it is uh and as Carlos has alluded to too as well, they deal with some very serious issues. Uh, Carlos talked about drinking, stealing. There's also teen pregnancy that we'll talk about in some of these particular ones too as well. And uh so it was very pretty pretty cutting edge at the time. And uh as I mentioned, there's 54 episodes over three seasons. Bruce Paltro of you know Gwyneth Paltrow's Foller was the showrunner, and Stephen Botchko of Hill Street Blues was one of the writers as that too as well. And then uh it was produced by the Mary Tyler Moore, which because since we're from Minnesota and we have an inferiority complex, anything that's associated that makes the show one of us. That's right. And uh it was funny what they did with the logo at the end of the credits. They had a little cat dribbling. Uh that's the MTM, the MTM Kitty. Yep. Yep. And if you watch The Pilot, uh Carlos already mentioned that Ken's old friend, who was principal at that South Central High School, Jason Bernard was his name, was played by an actor by the name of Jim Willis. But don't get used to him if you watch that first episode, because he just he's not on the rest of him. He gets replaced by another actor named Ed Bernard, no relation but his best friend. So it it revolves around um Ken Reeves and these kids, and I just thought it was it's they're the coolest kids. And um, and it was just one of those things where I'd never seen this on TV, and uh the only thing that I can compare it to, and Carlos, if you can dredge up in his memory ranks, when we played traveling basketball, one of the stops that we made was to the hospitality house.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

In in North Minneapolis, and I guess we which was pretty predominantly African American, yeah. And you'd have all of these um suburban kids from St. Louis Park go there, and uh did not the culture shock for us going into that sort of uh pit of people right on you and screaming and yelling was uh was a lot, and it was uh so that's kind of was sort of my sort of uh kind of like, oh, so this carvers a little bit what this is what it is for Minneapolis.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

My my kid brain made that same connection when we're playing them, you know, right? I actually wanted to, and one of the things we haven't talked about, and one of the parts that I loved at 13, now I don't know how I feel about it, was they would always sing uh old temptation songs.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

My girl, they would sing in the shower. Um and there was always a lot of singing in the shower. And I can tell you that I have never, ever broken out in song in a locker room shower. Ever.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Yeah. The one one bit of Hollywood that uh, you know, but it was fun, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:45

I mean, I thought it was so cool. I mean, they I mean, these guys were smooth. I mean, Coolidge could sing, he could do the bass line in My Girl. I mean, I mean, you know, and he's a superstar basketball player. I mean, you know, he's everything I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

There you go. And if you want to get to the Zeitgeist in 1980, the U.S. Parent Teacher Association cited this as one of the best primetime TV programs for family viewing, which, as you we can as when Carl's gonna talk a little bit more about that pilot, it's it's it's not for the faint of heart, some of that language, to 2026 years. It is, yes. And it holds an 8.0 8.0 IMDB rating too as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

So it's well, which is actually really good. It's really good from a TV for a TV show from that era that is not considered, you know, one of the greats.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Exactly. And then uh it and it and um well the the best things that I've forgotten totally about this are never new. But do you Carlos, do you remember those old ESPN humorous promos that was?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

I remember they did one with Reeves and I think Coolidge.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

And uh I watched that yesterday, and I don't know if we can post that somewhere uh when we know what I will I will put a link in the show notes to that commercial because that's first of all, first of all, ESPN. I don't know what you guys are thinking. Find the person who created those and bring them back because they were amazing. But I remember the car, and I and I just I I because I felt like it was made for me, right? Because I'm thinking I'm the only person on the planet that remembers this show.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Exactly. And so when I saw that this day, I mean my heart, it was just it was funny and it was clever, and you know, here Coolidge, obviously older than he was in the TV show, was was just it was just wonderful. So it was great to see. So but yeah, it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Let me just take a step back because you know, I I want this show to you know to introduce what we're gonna be talking about, but also introduce ourselves a little bit. And I mentioned to you, and I mentioned earlier, you know, I mean I got into basketball because I was tall, but I never I never played any basketball in high school beyond that, you know. But you know, but I played elementary school basketball and traveling team basketball for like three years, and then when that ended after eighth grade, you know, between what happened to me is between seventh and eighth grade, I went from the tallest to the sixth tallest on the team, same kids. So I peaked early. So basketball was never my sport, but I think you continued to play it long into adulthood. So what's your relationship to basketball? I'm assuming it's your number one sport.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, so this was for for my life up until COVID, I played basketball at least once a week, pretty much from the age of 13 to the age of fifty five years old or fifty-six years old. So basketball was quite uh it was my refuge, right, in a sense, dude. Like a lot of people who they're gonna go get therapy, they're gonna do what, but you know, no matter what the troubles are with your life, when I step between those lines, either playing a five on five game or a three on three game of basketball, the walls would come up, right? Yeah. I would think about anything but playing that game at that particular point in time. Basketball is indelibly something that uh is um ingrained in me. And when COVID stopped all that, I played a little bit afterwards, but then you know, it was getting older and know, injuries or whatever it may be, and I'm just like something that was a little less impact. Yeah, a little less impact and I just I just didn't you know the fire in the belly finally kind of petered out about that.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

But but so it's uh it's uh an important thing to me and uh um I've uh that you know and so that's why it's been something that's been part of my life and uh not only just playing it but the people I've met the coaches I've had we both had Mike Gavrin I believe was the traveling coach at that time in the uh in the late 70s there so it's um uh it's been uh something a gift that uh yeah you know I had I you know I kind of feel the same way about baseball but I you know I I am not someone that played baseball and you know I don't know if you remember uh from my neighborhood and then also uh uh from youth sports by Craig Breikreit a former classmate of ours I think he played town ball into his fifties to me that's just and I think that Tad Nelson also played uh well into his 50s too so good for them for staying in shape but you know I appreciate that because like I said this show really imprinted on me at the right time and it's stuck with me because I feel like there's some special stuff there. Now our plan is not to do uh a straight all 54 episodes one episode a show normal rewatch um I think there's a lot of good stuff to talk about I think maybe three or four episodes a season for the three seasons you know so I don't know 10 8 12 somewhere we'll see when we run out of conversation but one of the things we're on the lookout for is what potential other shows to do next you know my personal preference is not to do something like Sopranos because I don't think the world needs a 50th or 500th Sopranos podcast but something maybe something more obscure from the 70s and 80s something that yeah that was great I hadn't thought about that in a long time and you know giving some love to some of these shows and I think White Shadow fits that like a glove.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

So exactly agreed.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

So yeah looking forward to doing this uh show with you Joe and uh uh sharing uh your thoughts on uh what's going on uh in the basketball world you're you're my connection to what happens I know that the Timberwolves are in the playoffs I know there's a playoff game coming up this evening correct let me know I I believe that they're playing the Denver Nuggets huh that is correct that one guy who's like really good his name's like Nochek or Novik or Johan or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Nikola Jokic yeah he's really good right yep yep he's the Carlos Figaro of uh 1970 well no no well okay maybe 1978 sixth grade uh basketball but so uh what do you think are the are the wolves gonna get past him it's uh I think right now we've played thirty playoff games in the last three years against Denver. Yeah we're 15 and 15.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Wow um last playoff series uh it was a seven game series we won game seven by uh after being down twenty points with about six or seven minutes to go tonight's gonna be a big game if we win and if we can it's kind of like those things if you can crush their spirit you know it's it this one's a target center right correct yep they play they played two at Denver and they split which is what you want to do on the road in playoffs right I mean I'm I'm applying baseball logic so if I'm off here and how it works in basketball you tell me so they're in a good shape winning tonight is key because being up 2-1 you can be loose for game four right yeah that's what you want yeah so it'll be uh it'll be uh it'll be interesting to see too as well about uh sorry trying to hear on the way home a little bit about something coming up in Denver I think somebody got hurt or something on the lane but uh we'll see what happens gun goes off at 8 30 and it's one last question because I'm fascinated by it I you know I see lots of social media from the wall they're good trash talkers aren't they like typical trash talkers or am I wrong about that?

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Well this the it's come up recently because uh when we won the last game someone asked a reporter as Jade McDaniels one of the defenders they said none of those guys can guard so they just all take him to the poop so that's why so you know that's like you know that's as they would say in any sport that's multiport let me see this will give you how much I'm aware of basketball.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

To me the funniest joke that I can throw in there is hey his name is Dirk because there's no D and Dirk. But I appreciate you keeping me updated though I now have a connection to Pro Basketball through yeah this is our first episode here I think that we've told the folks who we are and what we're gonna try to do with this show is there anything that we talk about that you thought maybe we should have included too I think we're good I know we can get into a little bit about a lot of things great characters are maybe we'll do that maybe we'll uh we'll start next episode we'll do the pilot but then we'll break into you know here are the here are the you know here are the kids on the team basically exactly um and go through that and then maybe maybe Ken Reeves' introduction because because the first time he meets his team I'm shocked that he didn't go running away. And then uh kind of a little bit about the pilot uh yeah there are some uh coaches asking for beer from 17 year old kids and it's a it's a and then coaches going to a place where a kid works and helps uh humiliate his boss so it's a there are some things that was a there was a joke that could have been inter very early on that could have been interpreted as being racially insensitive but I won't repeat it I'll repeat it to you off the air to see if you had the same impression I had with it. But I appreciate your time Joe I appreciate getting together and talking about the white shadow and the Forgotten Television podcast. Yeah and we look forward to making more of these and you know this one will be out probably end of next week. You know we'll want to throw out a couple episodes at once but uh exactly awesome well thanks Joe and uh thanks everybody for listening.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yep thanks everyone for listening and uh Carlos always a pleasure and uh until next time. All right go wolves. Go wolves