Forgotten Television

The White Shadow Revisited

Forgotten Television

Forgotten Television - Ahead of Its Time: Tackling Taboos on The White Shadow Episode 5

June 08, 2026 • Joe & Carlos • Season 1 • Episode 5

0:00 | 38:13

In this week's episode of The Forgotten Television Podcast, Carlos and Joe continue their deep dive into the first season of the classic series The White Shadow. The hosts agree that the show is really hitting its stride as they break down three surprisingly progressive episodes from the late 1970s: "Wanna Bet?", "That Old Gang of Mine", and "One of the Boys".

First, the guys tackle "Wanna Bet?", where Coach Reeves tries to recruit a 17-year-old street hustler who is in debt to a local bookie. They highlight the guest appearance of Michael Warren—who played a high schooler despite being 33 at the time—and discuss the behind-the-scenes connections to Hill Street Blues.

Next, the discussion shifts to "That Old Gang of Mine," a Ricky Gomez-centric episode that explores the importance of cultural representation in school reading lists. After Gomez gets kicked off the basketball team and joins a local street gang, Coach Reeves tries to intervene by going on a highly unrealistic police ride-along. Carlos and Joe also take a hilarious trip down memory lane to discuss 1970s fashion, specifically the era's obsession with carrying giant combs in your back pocket and the teenage quest for feathered hair and perms.

Finally, they break down "One of the Boys," featuring a young Peter Horton as a transfer student from the Pacific Palisades whose new teammates suspect he might be gay. Carlos and Joe examine how the show tackled homophobia in sports, highlighting how Reeves' sister serves as the voice of reason when the coach initially considers cutting the player just to avoid the headache. They praise the writers for tackling gay rights in prime time in a mature way, without putting a "thumb on the scale".

Along the way, the guys uncover some fantastic TV trivia, including the heavy influence of writer Steven Bochco bringing in future Hill Street Blues actors like Bruce Weitz, an early guest appearance by Star Trek's Jonathan Frakes, and a bizarrely prophetic mention of the name "Ross Geller".

00:00 Introduction and Show Overview
01:42 Episode Six Recap
02:28 Michael Warren's Casting
02:58 Hill Street Blues Connection
03:40 Getting the Kid Enrolled
04:45 The Toothpick Mystery
05:38 The Bookie Storyline
07:10 Reeves' Mixed Motives
07:45 Most Memorable Episode
08:24 Ricky Gomez Episode
09:27 Representation in Education
11:10 Reeves Loses Power
12:26 Meeting Kids Where They Are
13:45 Gang Member Casting Issues
14:20 Gomez Joins the Gang
15:02 Saturday Night Fever Vibes
15:12 The Giant Comb Nostalgia
15:30 Hair Stories and Memories
16:25 History of the Comb
17:43 Nostalgia and Cultural Observations
18:12 Coach Reeves Ride Along
18:51 Easter Eggs and Character Actors
20:43 Gomez Episode Discussion
21:22 One of the Boys Introduction
23:16 The Basketball Hustle Scene
24:00 Star Trek Connection Revealed
25:03 Hill Street Blues Actor
25:46 Guthrie Theater Connections
26:35 Addressing Homosexuality in Sports
27:24 Language and Terminology Discussion
29:21 Vice Principal Conversation
29:49 Show's Social Commentary Impact
31:11 Theme Music Trivia
31:49 Wrapping Up and Next Episode

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Hey, how are you doing, Joe Riley?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I'm doing very well, Carlos. Good afternoon here this fine Saturday before the rain comes tomorrow, but I'm doing well. Excellent, excellent.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Um happy to be back here with you talking about some forgotten television gems, and our current focus is the white shadow.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Oh, yes, the white shadow. It's the more I've watched it, the more it brings back memories, and the more that I was like, I may have missed some of this because we weren't there. And it's been uh it's been a fun journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yep. I I was a fan of it as a kid for the basketball and for the singing in the shower, and I was gonna be Coolidge and the superstar, and that was all that was in my mind, and all these social issues in the show. I had zero memory of it. But we are round an A-Men corner of the first season. We're talking of, I think, episodes seven and eight, starting with our a Ricky Gomez-centered episode called That Old Gang of Mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Ooh, do we have to go back one, I think, Carlos?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Oh, the Wanabet's. Oh, Wanabet. Yes, we have not talked about Wanabet. Oh, I thought we had to. Yeah, you and I briefly had talked about it. Okay, so we got six and seven, and maybe eight if we get there. But Wanabet, what? Ken Reeves sees a kid hustling basketball on a public court and says, hey, this kid's got some game.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Correct. And I think that as we talked about, Ken Reeves is trying to convince him to go to school because as most established people, you go to high school, you go to college, that's how you get to the pros. You're not going to go by hustling in the park. And he gives them those sort of warnings too, as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

But I guess he was doing kind of a white men can't jump before white men can't jump, which I guess was just doing street hustle basketball.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Exactly. And then that was played by this character, this young man, was played by Michael Warren, who I found out. And maybe we talked about this a little bit, was on the UCLA basketball team.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

And played with Kreem Abdul Jabbar, so making him a cool 33 years old when he played this 17-year-old student.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

And also the actor, I remember him fondly from Hill Street Blues.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

He was Bobby Hill. He was Renko's partner. A little known fact. I don't know if we'll ever do a Hill Street Blues podcast, but his character was supposed to die at the end of the pilot. He and Renko were supposed to die at the end of the Hill Street Blues pilot. They're both gunned down and killed. And then I don't know, whatever networks do to shows after the pilot says, I'll keep those two. And so they somehow they never explain in season two how they're alive after they took uh horrible number of rounds to the body.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Gotcha. I remember that too. And yeah, he was, and of course, the kind of the how that brings it back to the way she had it was Stephen Botchko was the producer of this where he was a writer.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Okay, so Botchko was. So there's that connect. Because there is a couple episodes later, there's another Hill Street Blues actor that shows up.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Oh, yeah. Well, I think we're both. Yeah, I'm right there.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Leeves tries to get this kid into school and he's dealing with the vice principal again. At least from somewhere, he's got to go to school somewhere. What about his transcripts? There ain't no transcripts, there's no nothing.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, and that was an interesting kind of scene where the principal always dressed to the nines, kind of is the peacemaker between Reeves and the Vice Principal. But it did one of those classic sitcom things of the 70s where after Reeves kind of store steamrolls his way to getting what he wants and he walks out the door, there's a scene where the vice principal and the principal look at each other, then there's a cut to the exasperation on the vice principal, and the principal almost shrugs his shoulders and smiles and says, Almost boys will be boys kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yep, yeah. No, it is interesting, and I have no doubt that is somewhat realistic. Back then, coaches were cajoling teachers and things like that. And because that that he actually is a good guy who gets involved with these kids' lives. He also wants to win.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yeah, I thought that was good. Did you, and I didn't do any research on this, or maybe I don't know if there is such a thing, but did you get the toothpick thing? I did not.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

I did not.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

So he put the for all those who are listening during the episode, he carries a toothpick in his sock. And once he's done playing basketball, he takes the toothpick out of his sock and puts it in his mouth. Oh, interesting. I'm not sure what status symbol that is.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I'm just trying to think there were a few guys that would do that in the 70s. Toothpick. When I remember Stelly Savalas with the sucker, but the toothpick thing, I'm trying to think, but there were guys that would do that.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah. Maybe if we can circle back in one of these other episodes. Yeah, what was up with that? What was up with that?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Usually that's just like something that a writer, I know a guy, and this and that, how stuff gets in there, but it'd be curious to see, because that is a very dis there had to have been a conversation around that.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Exactly. So the crux of the episodes is that our 17-year-old student owes money to a bookie.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And of course, Reeves are gonna charge in there and see what he can do to apparently Reeves quickly is able to find the bookie. It was I don't think it was that bookie, right? Wasn't it another bookie he would talk to the other book? Yeah, he was gonna talk to the guy. And I was like, why does Ken Reeves know a bookie in LA? But I thought that was a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Because he's not from LA. That's the other thing is we have to remember he's not from LA. Correct. He was a bull.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Now his sister happens to live there, but Yeah, and it's just for me, it was just like he had this little lunch and he said, Hey, the kid's gotta pay, you can do it in installments. But then the guy and he assures Ken Land he's gonna do it, but then spoiler alert, in the next scene, finds out that the the police are found out that the bookie that he owed money to is dead. Yep. And so it's like what did Ken really say off camera?

SPEAKER_04 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So I thought that was an interesting little twist, and then how that scared the uh Michael or the the yeah, the character about the kid. And it was so yeah, but it it does show a little bit of reason getting involved in their lives and trying to help take care of these things, but then obviously after this incident, we don't see him again because Bobby Magdum or Bobby Magum goes back to Oakland where he uh where he's from. And of course they didn't want to pay another actor, and how would they write him in anyway? Yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

So yeah, that was just a special thing. But we got to see the once again. Reeves is not acting completely outside of self-interest. He sees a kid with some skills and he'd love to have him on the Carver Squad at the same time. He wants to help the kid out. But once again, with that motive of I want him to play for Carver.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Exactly. And when and Reeves is leaving the meeting between the principal and the vice principal, he says, Yes, get his tram skips everything, his grades, his date of birth, his free throw percentage, his field goal percentage. So he was ecstatically uh aware of the this particular player's skills, so that was very good. But yeah, I enjoyed that episode for me, at least in my mind, Carlos. That's probably the one that I remember the most, and is one of the most famous in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Really?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Because of that actor from Sill Street Blues for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

I I didn't have any recollection of this episode. I'm trying to think. I remember more scenes. The one thing I remembered taking back, not having thought back about the White Shadow for 40 years wasn't singing in the shower. But I remember Coolidge, it's gonna happen, I think, maybe next season is Coolidge starts to get a big head. And the team starts to get a big head. And I know that there's a couple episodes there where he's got to kind of knock them down off the mountain so that they realize they're not as great as they think they are.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

There we go. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

All right, now we can move on to Ricky Gomez and his problems at school and what happens as a result. This actually was a very progressive episode indicating that maybe the reason the kid has trouble in school is that you is a representation issue. Which I'm like going, wow, talk about being 40 years ahead of time.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

That amazed me. This whole episode for me was how progressive it was. Yeah. And how many different layers this was, and it brought back for me the biggest nostalgia that I can recall from my youth of watching these episodes, which I'll go into not at this particular moment, but later in this episode. But I just thought that that how Gomez was failing because of his grades. Yeah. Because he didn't want to do a book report on little women, or the biography of Malcolm X.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Which by the way, by the way, he's missing out because that's a great book.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

But I think too that yeah, and that he they wanted him, the advocates are trying to get him to do the autobiography of Zapata, I believe. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're saying it's like going, hey, you know what? Let's head him something that speaks to him. And I don't know. I remember I recall some of my high school memories are vague, but I do recall a seventh, uh no, it might have been an 11th grade English class. Remember my English professor at St. Louis Park High School was Lorna Goines. She was British, and she just had a list of books. I don't know what was on it. I picked First Blood, which is actually a really good book. It was on a high school reading list, right? Yeah. It's actually is what I discovered something I love. I always love narratives where much of it happens inside the guy's head. And so the character Rambo, which is what they changed the name to, most of that movie is him strategically thinking of what he's gonna do next. Pretty much, I don't know if you've read or seen Project Hail Mary, but much of that narrative is one guy alone or with a non-English speaking entity that that does it. So I've always so I was I was like going, I never was faced with it. As opposed to old English or whatever it is that that you constitute Shakespeare, but you work through it. You bought a cliff notes if you needed to, and you worked your way through it. And but once again, I never one of the things that you've asked me and I've been asked before is I never really thought of you as a minority, Carlos, because you were in a white community and your dad talked funny, but other than that, like a lot of people's parents talked funny. And it was really not I did not have that identity. I did not like, hey, it's I need to read about Cortez. None of that was part of who my identity as a little kid.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

And that's one of the things I thought about was like, and not that the point about I wonder if Carlos wanted to read this particular book as opposed to whatever it was for us, but for the it was the for the first time and it showed up in several scenes where Coach Reeves was he he had didn't have the power, he couldn't do anything. Yeah, he couldn't do it when he was talking to the principal, the vice principal. He couldn't do it when he's talking to the mom and the mom's interpreter, whose mom's interpreter, by the way, has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Really? Wow, what did you do with the research? Holy cow. But yes, and so I thought that was great. But so it was one of the one times that I found he was powerless, though he did try to talk with the staff, which I thought that particular individual meeting and then group meeting was would not happen today, or there would be so many union reps on a phone.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah, yeah, you could not have that kind of but you know what? Here's the thing that happens you have individual human beings dealing with circumstances, and I think individual human beings dealing with circumstances can deal with nuance because you're part of it. But because it's like I think anyone watching that show going, yeah, it's like Ricky, let him read about Zapata. He's still learning this and that. It's it does not come off as some kind of oh, the left reading, whatever, has you know gotten is replacing Western thought kind of stuff. At no point in that episode is anyone thinking at that level. They're just thinking about, hey, this kid is failing, what can we do to engage him? And I'm like, I don't Did you ever watch The Wire?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I you yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Okay, there's a there's a great there's actually there's a guy whose name I can't remember, but horrible cop. Discharged his weapon in his car by himself on accident. Horrible cop. Becomes a high school teacher and is actually a really damn good high school teacher. But what he does, like when he's teaching math, and I realize I'm not trying to do I am not making a commentary about any community. I'm just making a commentary about what the teacher met the teacher on the show met them where they are, which is he did, all right. You guys are good, you guys like to play dice or whatever. Do you know how to calculate the odds so you can do it better? But you can do the same thing with baseball batting averages, whatever you want to do to engage a kid. Like I said, if it's a graphic now, what to me, kids reading is a good thing. We should encourage that however we need to. And I don't think it needs to be a big social debate or feel anybody should feel like they're being replaced or whatever some people think. I think the kernel of the idea, I don't know, just seems reasonable to me. Maybe I'm living in my own ivory tower, but it just struck me as a very reasonable I didn't see it as a massive, you know, shift in policy, what he was suggesting.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

I think that's one of those those little pebbles or drops of water that came about.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

So I do have to add one concern I had with the show is they there had to been more Hispanic actors to play the gang members. So there was there were some bad accents, and then there's a scene in their gang clubhouse where they're dancing. Yeah, get some people who can dance for Christ's sake. I'm sorry, but it's like going, you got a clubhouse full of Latinos and none of them can dance, and that bugged me.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah, I agree. That was I think like the first guy that kind of speaks to him. But yeah, that that brings me to that beginning of that, and let me step back because the reason Gomez Gomez has bad grades, get kicked, gets kicked off the basketball team, gets rid of his get rid of his carver coat, and then is walking down the street and then meets this gang who's gonna rob him, but then they find out it's Gomez they don't, and he gets back into the into this gang.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

So Yeah, I didn't I'm sorry, I didn't mean to I didn't get if he had been a gang member before or he just grew up with these guys and they knew him, but he's in the gang now.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, and I think, and I'm not sure either way, too, but that particular scene, Carlos, yeah, of him walking down the street, two things that I th that came to my mind. When he's walking down the street dressed to the nines, which they're showing him doing that, he very reminiscent of Tony from Saturday Night Live. Yes, walking down the street. Which would have been just out it would have been two years before.

SPEAKER_04 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

And then the other thing, Carlos, I don't know if you remembered, was he had in his back pocket one of those giant combs. Oh and for me, there was nostalgia that just waved through my junior and high school years because that was such a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

It was, it was Joe. Let me tell you, when you grow up, everybody wants something different, right? And so all my friends had the feathered hair, right? Straight hair, and I wanted straight hair. I wanted straight hair. So I carry that big ass comb even though you couldn't get through all my tangles and stuff with it. Eventually I owned it and then switched to a pick back there. Which because I was a lot of people see my that I'm follically challenged now, but I was working a pretty good fro back then. But I spent the summer between seventh and eighth grade in California, which I used to do a lot with my aunt, and I said, I want to have straight hair. So she asked her beauty, and then I go, and we really don't do that. It sends us to African American beauty stores and this and that. And then I kind of chickened out. I'm like, Yeah, you know what? I'll just deal with my hair. Of course, I get back, all the guys had gotten perms. All the guys with the straight hair had gotten perms. So it's kind of just an example, but to your point, I distinctly remember those big ass combs sticking out of your pocket.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

And I did some research on these big ass combs and their origin. Like, how did this happen? Yeah. So in the 50s, and now we're getting into another correlation to the show, yeah, jets and sharks, right? Sure, sir. So we're getting a little into that. So the 50s, the elaborate pompadours and the hairdoes was something where combs became something of a thing. And then obviously in the 70s and 80s, as you said, feathering, perms, having a comb was the dear thing. And then I even remember myself, I I had an ace comb, which aced was the was the thing. I was too afraid just to have it stick out of my back pocket. So I just had one of those littler ones that you would do that. And then the whole comb thing went away because of the rise of the 90s grunge. The grunge, yeah. So their hair was more unkempt, and then and that sort of fell out of place. So I thought it was the sort of the greaser era, even when you go back to the Sharks in Jacks and him walking down the street like Tony from Saturday Night TV.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And then and then obviously go joining the gang is obviously sharks and jets and things too. So for me, it was just a wave of nostalgia.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

And I just was, I was just, it was, I don't know, it just hit me that way. And so that's why I didn't mean to wax poetically too long.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

No, no, absolutely. It's one of the things that I love about the nostalgia of the show. It's actually why I love doing rewatches of old shows. I try not to read too much because you got the little the little gems you get of seeing actors before they were actors and stuff, and there's a ton of those people that we see and we point them out as we're doing them, but just the cultural stuff, the cultural stuff that's different and the similarities, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:11

It's a lot of fun. And then go ahead. Reeves is trying to prevent it. Yeah, he drives down to the police station based on the discussion he had with his mom. Yeah, clearly parks in a police only slot, and they made sure you do that. And then the next thing you know, he's going on a ride along with the detective, which of the gang unit. Yep, very noble, but I don't think that happens.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Uh I don't think that works like that. But it could. I've got a very obscure Easter egg for this one, and uh, and I would I would suspect that you did not get it. Most people didn't, but I had to rewind and see. So there's a moment in this show where Reeves and the principal are having a conversation and they're telling an old story from college about a kid named Ross Geller.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Oh, that's like a friend's name.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

That's the name of David Schwimmer's character on Friends. I just thought it was funny that they just their random uh name generator just landed on a name. That's great. No, I didn't I've actually heard that writers throw in kids' names from high school or stuff, or if they got a real jerk, they'll put the person they hated from high school.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I gotcha, I gotcha. And I think one of those things I did like about the ride-along anyway, was the scenes of LA in 1977, 78. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Which was cool just to see what although it was not a good time for new cars. No, it was a great time for older cars from the 60s and early 70s, but man, did the U.S. produced some really shitty cars in the 70s. That was the height of the K car.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, but no, it was good. And then the woman that I mentioned who got the Hollywood Walk of Fame, her, yeah, she was the interpreter for the mother. Her name was Carmen Zapata.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

And she's best her most famous, longest tenured show was the TV soap opera Santa Barbara.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Santa Barbara. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

So she has been around, she's been around a long time, but I know she's passed away at this point in time. You would just some of those people even they can recognize them when I see them. Yeah. But you have no they weren't ever famous, but then they're on the Hollywood Walkers.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

There's a couple actors that just in general have just died this past week. One was murdered and the other one was just died. It's kind of like you see these character actors, and you're like, I know them from fifty things because they're just always there. And you realize it's like on most of these shows, you can't just have the star, right? You need to have other people in it, and they a lot of times steal the show.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah. Were you surprised that in these first what is it now? This is the seventh episode, Gomez is a main character in two of them.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah, it's interesting. So Pam was watching a little bit with me, and she's not connected to the show, has no recollection of the show and stuff. But I was saying it's oh no, they got they got every ethnic group in the world used to do a bit about the people that were on the bus and speed. And she goes, they nailed every she goes, I'm surprised there wasn't an Eskimo with a spear in the back.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

But we got and then we have coming up a very we have uh a Goldstein specific episode coming up here towards the end of the season, and there's some really good stuff coming. Do you want to try to tackle just one of the boys or did you wanna let's tackle one of the boys and just one last thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

I mentioned Gomez left acting and is now a Christian pastor in Orange County, where he I think, as I mentioned off-air, Carlos, I think he is part of those series commentaries.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Oh, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I thought that was very good. But yeah, but yeah, let's try on to the next ode, which is one of the boys, which is you go, Carlos, because it's it's you give us a little summary because I know this is something.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Sure. First of all, it is a young man who transfers in. He is played by an I think his name is Peter Horner. He's well most well known. He's the one that played Gary on 30 something.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Kind of your California surfer guy who kind of lives by the seat of his pants kind of guy. And he plays a young man that transfers to Carver. And we from the Palisades. From the Pacific Palisades. And there's a bit of a mystery of why he transferred over. I think that he said that he The public story he gave was that he had some problems with some bullies or something there. But we find out that his father thought he might be gay. And the players at the Palisades thought he might be gay. And so that's why he transferred to start new. And so Reeves finds all this out and goes talks to the dad, because that's the thing is Reeves goes to the source. He talks to the parent. This is the third or fourth parent he's gone and talked to so far here in the first season. And the dad is not exactly very sympathetic. He's got to toughen up.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Oh, that guy looked like he was a stereotypical, early 70s, ball busting kind of businessman dad who dressed to the full suit.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

He was yeah, he was like, not an Alan Alda type dad, an Archie Bunker Moore type dad.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

No, it was not that too as well. And one of my favorite parts of that, and the one of the kind of the coolest scenes that obviously he bonds before they know he's gay with his new teammates, and they go to a rich part of town. Yes, they're gonna and they're going to hustle the rich kids for some money. And the way they set it up, the dialogue, the language of how they're opening up a basketball clinic, I thought that was pretty darn clever. It was kudos to the writers.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

It was, it was. It was somebody who's tried to hustle on the streets before. Yeah, now that was and then of course, bad for our new young man that these are kids that know him from Palisades.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yep. And then the secret comes out that he had those they don't really come out and say it, but he had those tendencies. But here's another Easter egg for you with those players, the rich kid players, Carlos. We got it, I got it wrong before in episode two, I believe, about someone being part of Star Trek. Well, I know for a fact one of those basketball players was Jonathan Frakus from Star Trek.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Oh my god, I gotta I gotta go back and look. Oh my god, I missed that.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yep. He was one of those ones in the scene in terms of one of those guys who was doing that. So people aren't confused. Yes, the kids from Carver were losing the game for money, but eventually came back and won it because the supposedly homosexual character started playing better after he was pumped up by his teammate in the sense of the word.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And they did mention here, I've noticed it just a couple of times. This is the first, they define they refer to this young man as being a sophomore. So that would make him what 16 or 17. Which stretches credulity, but then again, that was the era when they tried to let us know that Rizzo from Greece was a high school student. He is suspended, but there's also his coach comes and talks to Reese. Yes. And I don't know if you recognize the actor, but that he played Mick Belker from Hill Street Blues, a very, very, very memorable character from Hill Street Blues, so another connection.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yeah, and I'll give you one more on that guy. Yeah. He was he attended Carnegie Tech with Steven Botchko.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

And since we're all from Minnesota too, he studied at the Minneapolis Guthrie Theater. Very cool. Belcher was before he became a dog on TV or a police sergeant acting like a dog. He was doing Shakespeare or whatever classical plays at the there too, as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

That's awesome. That's actually something I should research because back in the day, so back in the 70s, 80s, it was like, oh, uh Nick Nolte was at the Guthrie, but it's like, well, I'm assuming we can do better than that. I saw a play at the Guthrie. It was oh my god, I cannot remember. Is Gal Friday, but it starred the prosecutor from Law and Order Criminal Intent. Law and Order, yeah, criminal intent. His name is Courtney B. Vance. And then the woman who played Tina Turner was in it. So it was very good. So it's good to see actors like that. And thanks for making that connection because I think we need more than just Nick Nolte, who was an act, young actor at the Guthrie.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I know that Amy Adams, if you're familiar with her, work she worked at the Chan Hassan Dinner Theater in her day. I did not know that. That is awesome. So there are some of those little bits and pieces too, as well. But and back to this episode too, Reeves struggling with the aspect of homosexuality because he hasn't really come across it in sports before. And who comes as the voice of reason is his sister.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Sister, yeah. Actually, he says, I should just cut him. I don't want to deal with these headaches. I should just cut them, which is just wow. But if you think about it from his perspective, it's like, oh I don't need this hassle, it's not worth it. Which is sad. That's his perspective as a coach. It's sad though that and as you mentioned, his sister says, Shame on you.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah, and what she she says, where have you been for the last five years?

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

I'm thinking to myself, it's maybe more a California perspective than it was in a Minnesota perspective. Or obviously, we as we know we were dumb kids, we didn't know what the heck that meant.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

And they did mention Anita Bryant. Um, so you know, Anita Bryant was yeah, I don't know. I knew her, I'm sure she did a lot of things, but I knew her. She was the spokesperson for Orange Juice.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

And she campaigned against gay people. That's the only two things I know about Anita Bryant in the 70s. That was the two things she was known for. I don't know if she was a model or an actress or where she came from, but that so they did mention her. What are you, Anita Bryant?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

And yeah. And then the term that they brought up, I don't know, I'm not gonna I will uh it starts with an F and ends in a G. Yeah. Came up in the episode. And for me, anyway, that is one of the more prevalent words used to refer to homosexuals back then. That's I recall them the 70s and 80s. And then I also had them.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

It's similar to if someone was to ask you in England for a cigarette.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yep. And then if you a bundle of sticks would be the long version of that, uh the definition of that. So it was so I think from my sense it colored, I think it had influence in terms of how that word was used. They drew from the from what they had heard. So it was just very poignant and to go back to the page.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

And then the real the reality is that the word then that was used most predominantly in our generation and going forward into the next one is we would just refer to gay. We would use gay as a negative word. Oh, that's just gay or this or that. And it was common usage, and and there's nothing wrong with the word, but using it as a pejorative, there is something very wrong with it, but we just did it. And I'm not one of these people say, Oh, I just lament that we can't say racist stuff anymore. I was like, oh no. If a term is hurtful, then I will choose not to use it. I'm gonna be conscious about it, right? I mean, yeah, I it's not I'm not worried about being cancelled. I'm not worried about I'm like, if I can live my life in a way that does not cause unnecessary upset to people, I'm gonna make that choice.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yep. And then the penultimate kind of scene was when Peter Horton meets with the vice principal and Ken's urging that she talk to him about how he's trying to figure out who he is.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

And I don't I don't want if people it's actually a very good discussion and it's good advice. Yeah, and I think if you have the time and effort, people to go and see it, it's well worth your time to see something like this from 1970.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

And once again, yeah, let's put it in context of what else was out there at the time. It really did they handle things perfectly? Absolutely not. But you know what? They took a shot. They took a shot. Now there's a few silly episodes we're gonna come on that don't are not trying to engage in social commentary. It's more of the yeah, it's more of a silly situation for the group of people, which are fun too. But they're really taking once again, you can call it after school special stuff, but they were really attacking in prime time gay rights in the 70s. That's crazy. And they were handling it, I think, in a very mature way and not putting their thumb on the scale, right? They're not yeah, I I I I think these are these are three Emmy, I would submit any of these three episodes. They were real, they were once again. I'm not trying to put this in the TV Hall of Fame or anything, but I think this show is does not get the respect it deserves.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

There we go. No, I thought these episodes were the strongest, and I think it's really the show is now catching its stride here. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to re-watching. I'll be on to the next three episodes, and then I think it's going to be I I've seen some of the other ones where they're all on the plane, which is probably gonna be the silly part.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

That actually episode is a lot of fun, and yeah, it's very much a fish out of water episode, and then the head fish has to deal with the consequences of it.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Oh, and I oh, and just one last thing before we go, because I think we're getting close to time, Carlos.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

I was gonna do this as a quiz for anyone who wants to message us, do so to this. I was gonna give a quiz, but since the answer I looked it up or I noticed it, but then I was get then I was on IMDb and noticed that they mentioned it.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

For the Gomez episode, when they the opening is more horns and trumpets than the normal than the normal one. That was the first time they did that. And I was gonna give any of our people who do that, I was gonna give them the quiz what's different about the Gomez episode. But now I can't because then we can go to IMDb and set it there.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

But it was that's uh that was another thing I noticed, and it's one of those things where I'm like, did I hear that right? Did I hear that right? But it was good.