Forgotten Television Episode 7 - The White Shadow - Salami Takes Center Stage

Episodes Covered: Spare the Rod & The Great White Dope (The White Shadow) 

Hosts: Joe Riley & Carlos Figueroa

Episode Summary: Welcome back to Carver High! This week on Forgotten Television, Joe and Carlos kick things off with a special "dobrodošli" (welcome) to their listeners tuning in from Slovenia. The hosts then dive into two very distinct episodes of The White Shadow, exploring the show's impressive blend of heavy drama, sports nostalgia, and complex character development.

Deep Dive: "Spare the Rod" In what might be the most serious episode of the series so far, Coach Reeves covers a gym class and clashes with Lucius, a highly defiant and disturbed student. When Lucius sucker-punches the coach, Reeves hits him back—a shocking moment that prompts Joe and Carlos to discuss how differently such an incident would be handled in today’s legal and administrative climate. Rather than lean on simple television tropes, the show reveals that Lucius comes from a caring, middle-class family, which Carlos praises as a realistic and nuanced writing choice.

The hosts also unpack the uncomfortable scene where Lucius assaults a female teacher, leading to a fascinating observation about the complete absence of security guards in 1979 high school depictions compared to modern times. On a lighter note, Joe shares a painful high school memory triggered by the realistic "box out" basketball drill featured in the episode.

Spotlight: "The Great White Dope" Next, Salami takes center stage as he decides to follow in his father's footsteps and become a boxer. Capitalizing on the cultural earthquake of the movie Rocky, Salami enters the gritty world of unlicensed, $10 underground bar fights. Salami even gets to flex his acting chops with a full Marlon Brando "I could be a contender" moment.

This episode takes Joe and Carlos down some great nostalgic rabbit holes, from the magic of 1970s foosball arcades to Thorp's spot-on impression of the legendary sports broadcaster Howard Cosell.

Classic TV Trivia & Guest Stars: Joe and Carlos track the impressive careers of this week's guest cast:

• Brian Stokes Mitchell plays the troubled Lucius, marking his first TV role before starring in over 100 episodes of Trapper John, M.D..
• Philip Sterling, who plays the teacher cheering on Reeves's retaliation, went on to be the first president of the Screen Actors Guild and acted in St. Elsewhere.
• Carlos Palomino, a real-life Welterweight Champion of the World who famously fought Roberto Durán, makes a cameo appearance.
• Robert Costanzo, a prolific character actor with a massive career, plays Salami's strong, silent father.

Looking Ahead: As Carlos works on his own fiction writing, he notes how The White Shadow consistently chooses complex storytelling over 70s melodrama. Join the guys next week as they close out Season 1 with "Mainstream," "Little Orphan Abner," and the "Grand Finale". Carlos leaves us with a tease: next week's episode will feature an Academy Award nominee! Finally, the hosts announce plans to record a future interlude episode to discuss what classic show Forgotten Television should cover next.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Hi, Joe. How are you doing? I'm doing well, Carlos. It's another fine afternoon here in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Yeah, and I'd like to give a shout out to our some of our newest fans. I'd like to say welcome to our friends in Slovenia. And I would like to say that here in Dobrodoshli, which is the word welcome in Slovenia. So thanks for tuning in, and we're glad you're here. And I hope you're enjoying Forgotten Television, focusing now at this point on the white shadow.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Absolutely. You know what? The fans of Carver High know no geographic boundaries, as we're discovering when we're looking at some of our stats. So welcome and drop us a line. Let us know how you heard about us. And are you somebody that knows us that happens to be traveling? Or how did we end up on your feed? Did you misspell a word and somehow you're listening to these two strange men in Minnesota talking about a TV show from the 70s? Just let us know. I'd be I'm really curious to hear about how you're finding us.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

So very good. Our next episode, spare the rod. Something that a phrase probably not used much in seriousness today.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

You know what? Yeah, what was the old saying from that era or from the prior era? Spare the rod, spoil the child.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Correct, correct. So that's what that's a play on, obviously. And it's it's probably to date the most serious topic kind of handled here, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, I know, and yeah, and definitely the most serious dramatic scene that we've, you know, a topic that even to this day, a subject even to this day is disturbing when you see it on television. It's not shown very frequently, but yeah, it's there is one thing that is non-plot related in this that I thought I'd ask you about. Okay. There was a drill that they did in this episode, which is where the ball basically you're like trying to button, you're just trying to keep them from getting past you to the ball, and you've got your back to it. It was an I never saw that drill. Is that something you'd never seen or experienced before?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

I have. I had that in my notes where in sophomore year that was one of the drills that we did, and the goal is you're boxing them out and you don't want them to touch the ball. And I can still remember to this day, I was we in sophomore year, I alluded to it on the park bench perspective. I talked about one thing in our sophomore year, but we had lost a game so our coach was like Coach Reese in that scene, were particularly upset at the time, and that's when that drill comes out. And then I was boxing out one of my friends, Mike F, and as I was boxing him out, he fell down. Oh and he was a little slow to get up, and the coach kind of barked, Get up, quite menacingly.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Doctor, are you okay, son? No.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

And uh so it was it so that kind of brought back that memory to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I thought I'm like going, I'm like, it wasn't like boy, that's stupid. I'm like, that's a good drill, but my my illustrious basketball career ended at 14. So the fact I'm not familiar with the drill is not is not shocking, but I had not seen it and it stuck out in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, think about that at 60. It's oh my god, that would really hurt. Moving that way.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

In a much more realistic uh scenario than earlier in the season, Ken Reeves needs to fill in and substitute, but this time for a gym teacher, not the home ec teacher. So and that's how the plot gets going here. He has a young man in his phys ed class that doesn't want to participate, doesn't want to listen, basically giving him lip, but in a more hardcore way than with the basketball players, right? You know what I mean? He always had a little bit of that, but this kid was on another level.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

And the writers try to portray him a little bit as someone not socially well adjusted. I wanna it's psychopath is too strong a word, but he was a sociopath, maybe, in one sense. Without using that word. And the kids used he's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah. Yeah, but they're at first they're like, he's crazy, but he's not that crazy.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yep, yeah. He's crazy but phony crazy. So they set that up about him, and then they're all kind of friends from junior high, and they I think at one point they tell a little story about what he did to somebody's shoes, a teacher's shoes, as I recall. But yeah. So he is a guy that they menacing, and then when his interaction with Reeves, or just can you even as an adult, if someone was doing that, yeah, just laying on the bench and being a smart person, yeah, it would not it would not pass muster. It was just something that I think would have been seemed very realistic, at least that particular set.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, and the I can tell you I experienced teachers touching students in the 80s when the students as an adult sitting here now, I'm like, I don't blame them. I will use an example from my high school. We my high school in the 80s, I think it was unique that we required CPR certification for all students, which is something I think that came later for a lot of places. But the teacher, Gordy Yrock, in if you are ever in St. Louis Park, Minnesota, I think he has passed, but he devoted a tremendous amount of time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears, begging, getting money to get all of these dummies and set up the program in the high school. It was part of health class, you had to be certified, which if you think you know, think about it, is probably a worthy goal. And this teacher went out, and one of our classmates one day just decided to, and it was a double room. Have you ever seen those rooms where you can pull the accordion thing and it's double? And the front half was the classroom, the back half was the dummies. And one of one of our classmates, whose name will go nameless, he wants to call in and say he can identify himself, but he decides to walk across the chests of the dummies into the room. And this teacher physically grabbed him and picked him up and carried him to the office. And once again, even at the time, I'm like, Well, I think you were being a little bit of a you know what I mean? I so what Reeves does here, I don't think is out of line. How do you would you describe it? It's like a push, push hit. I mean, it wasn't like there was a punch thrown directly, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

It was so I think that the student instigated it, yeah, and then sucker punched him in a sense. Yeah, and then you can see Reeves turning his back to us in the can and just turning what turning around and hitting the kid, and then it was never explicitly laid out with Kevin Hooks, the actor who played his character alluded to that.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

They did it happen so fast, but it looked like every student uh after the fact we found out was on Coach Reeves's and what I found interesting, and I wonder if that were to air today, at no point did anybody suggest that Reeves was in trouble, or that he would get suspended, or that he that we need suspended without pay or with pay for investigation. None of the things that I would imagine would happen in 2026 if that exact set of facts happened.

unknown 7:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I would think that, and once again, I'm a licensed attorney and I can say this the reason that they can't do it that way anymore is because of lawyers, they ruin everything. So you have to go through processes and things like that. But at no point does that happen to Reeves. But Reeves, being the guy that we've gotten to know, feels bad about it, first of all, for losing his cool, and going and wanting to find out what's going on with this kid. How can I help this kid? What's the deal? Asking, which is his mode. We've seen his like going, you know, I'll go see the dad, I'll go figure it out. What's going on, what's the problem. And very mature answer for this kid. He's broke. You know what I mean? He's broken human.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah. Yeah. It was he wanted to be an advocate for the kid. He didn't think it was his fault. It was he's the one who was the adult. Yeah. But the kid was nefarious, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

He kind of told exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

He was subt he had a he was lying about his parents.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

And because he was trying to not get suspended.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

And it was, and then when Reeves went to their house and met the mother and the father, he seemed confused. And even at that point, I don't think even Reeves was backing away from punishing him in. But there was another side thing that, as you recall, those teachers were cheering on Reeves in a sense.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

And the one teacher, way to go. They kept yeah, they came up to him more than once saying, Finally, someone is standing up for us. And he's, I don't want I'm ashamed of what I did, essentially, is what he's saying. I don't want kudos for it.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah. And then it was the one teacher who wanted him to press charges, was the one who showed him his war wounds, right? He got cut by the student in the 60s, and it was quite the it was so that was really graphic, and I think from the teacher's perspective, this episode written.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

And I often say it that I was kind of I feel like I was born in Pleasantville. The era where I was born in and where I was born in, I realize is unique to me and is not a universal experience, but I never remotely encountered any time in the public school system a student throwing hands on teachers, even remotely. It was just not, it would have been the most shocking thing we'd seen. Now I realize check your privilege, Carlos. That may be a lot about where you grew up and where you live and everything else, but that was shocking. But it was interesting the way they addressed this because it was once again, the easy way to do it would be oh, he's an orphan, and all he needs is a break, and all of a sudden, look, someone believed in him, and it was like, you know what, that's not real life, right? Sometimes, sometimes you have bad kids, then you can't help them, and I think that's an okay lesson.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yeah, and I think too, that was played out when Rees was talking to the parents. The parents were really we've two really great kids, and we tried we've tried everything with Lucius, but the character's name was Lucius Robinson. We couldn't we couldn't do anything. It was almost kind of sanguine, almost harkens back to when Jackson's dad was like, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not that close, my son.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

I don't know. Good thing he's got a batch basketball coach who cares.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, so it was and those people were specifically in that scene where we've made them to see them as middle class people at the house. He's a bus driver, it looked like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

So it's let's take all of the ghetto talk, it's still it's which to me, once again, is a realistic portrayal considering the fact that it was the Cosby's that were credited with showing a middle class black family into America. Correct. And so they were showing that a little bit here. That is a key point, and actually I think it they tell a better story by them not be not by not doing the kind of rote stereotype that they could have in their storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, and it was they did a good job of that, and then even they did some foreshadowing with Lucius when he was talking to the uh his buddies on the basketball team guys, where he said about Miss Pringle. Yeah, and he alluded that he liked Miss Pringle. Oh, yeah, and then and then obviously comes to the scene where where things go awry, where the kid j goes over the, you know, jumps the shark, you would say, and uh And then Reeves hears him walking down the hallway, uh hears that there's a commotion and an assault happening, something's happening in Miss Pringle's office and or Miss Buchanan's office, and not I I really think that they should have made her Miss Pringle, because I think that's a better name.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

And we're gonna have her on the show, darn it, as soon as I figure out how to get a hold of her.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

There we go. But go ahead. It was just really the tough. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah, no, it was it was uh an uncomfortable scene. Seeing rape depicted on is always it's always any number of horrible it's just horrible, and it's not depicted that often. And I think it was it was an assault, you know, that I don't think it carried very far, but you clearly that she was vulnerable, and that is something that I have thought about before. I I was married to a teacher once, and you just look at the size of some of these kids now. Yeah, it's I I worry for the smaller folks, but she she had Ken Reeves to to come to her aid.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

And the one thing too that maybe when I was watching the show wasn't aware of, but could grew aware of it in terms of as we got into some other shows in the 80s, but yeah, that depicted high schools that were in less than impoverished areas had security guards. There's no there's nothing like that kind of shown in in this television show now.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

So that's different. Even today, and knowing I've worked in some schools, and there's not security guys running around, but there are people in charge of it.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

W St. Louis Park, we had uh in my high school, we had a city liaison officer, which makes sense, right? Because crime follows 15 to 25-year-old males, and you got a lot of 15 to 18-year-old males in one building. So having a relationship with a police officer makes sense, and then they had a couple of security guards, and so we weren't that big a school, so yeah, that's interesting. That is not reflected at all.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, and then the guy who played Lucius Robinson, the first thing, Lucius. I wonder if they try to get as close as possible to Lucifer.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yes, maybe. Oh, that's okay. Yeah, it's obvious, but then again, it's obvious, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, so it was that, and then the character who he played was by Brian Stokes Mitchell, and I said to myself, I've seen that guy before. And he was in played Dr. Justice Justin Jackpot Jackson in the hundred plus episodes of Trapper John MD.

unknown 13:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Not having watched Trapper John MD, but that's awesome. That's awesome that Lucius said went on to that level of career.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

And he he looking at his background, he said he never waited tables, never did any of that stuff. That he always had a job, which is in his first job was this job.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Oh wow, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, so he did a good job with his career at this particular point in time. But and then the other guy that I thought was interesting was the teacher who did the uh showed him the war wounds.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

He's another guy that I would see throughout TV throughout the years, and his name, the actor's name is Philip Sterling. He played the teacher, and then he was the first president of the SAG I saw read.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

And then again, on to our theme of where these all this little cluster of people, he was in 12 episodes of St. Elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

So all these people know it's good. As you can see, it's what it's not what you know, it's who you know sometimes, right? Yeah, interesting. Interesting. Um that was the one.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Do you have anything else on Spare the Rod?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

No, a last thing I had in my notes was the end of show. I did that box out drill as a sophomore.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

There you go. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

That was good. So no, uh, yeah, that's what I want to say about that one. But it further, again, the little bit was trying to that that thing was like tests against the Reeves relationship with his players. Yeah. How was that? How is this? How is he gonna react to Lucius? And Lucius is their friend, and then but then the student the kids realize at the end.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and actually, if anything, that's gotta help build the relationship. Yeah, and uh it the relationships are going strong, and we're now move on to the great white dope, and we are introduced to the prowling Italian.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

That's right, that's right. This is where I say the show where Salami takes center stage.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

He does, and Salami gets his moment.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

So it was, yeah, it as you would yeah, it's this aired during the popularity of the Rocky. Oh, yeah. So you know Rocky would have been out maybe a couple of years before. And so that was a big movie in my life.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

I it was just it was it was a it was an earthquake of a movie for the industry and for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, and I still remember when I was a kid, we didn't go to many movies, but I remember our parents talking to us says, Hey, we're gonna go to a movie. You can either go to Rocky or you can go to Bugsy Malone. Oh which was Scott Bale, it was the kids got to Scott Bayo, Jody Foster. Yep, and so thank gosh, we all went to Rocky because you're walking out of that movie and you're you're shadow boxing.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

If it's if it's if for no other reason Rocky has helped, the franchise has helped fill our workout playlists at the time, right? How many people have like oh yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

So it's interesting, but yeah, it's an episode that you go ahead, Carlos. Your thoughts were on it in terms of how it's laid out.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

I I found that so Salami wants to be a boxer. We find out Salami's dad had been a boxer, the golden gloves out in New York. Yeah, so I'm gonna be a boxer like my dad. And he's been doing I don't even know if they're called club fights, basically backroom bar for $10 fights kind of stuff. Not in a gym, not training. I think they're in jeans when they're fighting. Uh and you know what? I have never been exposed to something like that, but I have no doubt it exists today in places that there has to be some unregulated boxing with the popularity of MMA and everything else, and the continuing jackassing of America, I can see that happening.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

So this goes back, I did some research, Carlos. So this goes back to the 20s, but it became really prevalent in the 1560s. Underground amateur boxy was woven into the bar and saloon culture across major cities. So not unusual. They kept it unlicensed, right? Because as a lawyer here, Carlos, what insurance what insurance company is going to license a bar?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Exactly. And then when the cities don't want it, it's just it's better. It's like a lot of rural bars and their attitude towards slot machines.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Have a handful. They're for entertainment only. We don't care. Just remember to buy tickets to the policeman's ball every year.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, so that was the excuse me, the interesting thing that he was going in there and doing that.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

And oh, I was just gonna say, so you know, you you had mentioned Salami has his moment, and he has his true actor moment because he goes full on Marlon Brando on the waterfront with I can be somebody, it could be a contender.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah. Yeah. Excuse me, I got a little cough, but yeah, it was it was him and Reeves trying to do the good thing, right? He tried to because he had the old CYO, he taught him how to buy it.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

The first thing he does is he goes and sees his dad, right? Because that's what Reeves does. Let's see what's going on with mom and dad. And uh and uh dad's nah, I don't want him to.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

And dad had uh he was a big club and he was pretty good, but he never made it big, came out here and was laying bricks, is that's where Kenry's meeting at his job. And then every night the guy goes to a bar. Yeah. And surprisingly, not too far away from where the boxing bar was.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Of course not, because it's the small, it's LA is a small town. Everybody knows everybody. It was the 70s. They only had 20 million back then. Sound that interesting. The other note I have on this one is what once Reeves is on board and the team is on board, and Thorpe, you know, Thorpe is trying to rile them up, they're coming for a nickname, and Thorpe does one heck of a good Howard Co Sal. That's what I was gonna say. Which is I don't think is appreciated today. You know, and then actually got me to go down a rabbit hole in like going, I don't think there is a more distinctive voice in the history of sports announcing. You can maybe do some baseball announcers, but Howard was pretty unique.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, and I would say too that from what I was gonna tell the young kids, hey, anyone's heard of Howard County.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah, that's true. That's the ultimate thing. I dive in dove in there, and it's probably they haven't.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yep, and he is an iconic voice of the probably the 60s, 70s, boxing, football. So he's done a lot of particular.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Monday night football was big. He was the constant voice of Monday Night Football across a fair number of different hosts.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

And I think too, Carlos, he interviewed the president of Cuba, uh Fidel Castro. They kept calling him El Comedante.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

El Comedante, yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Which is controversial. I don't know why. Because he was because Fidel was Castro was a big baseball player, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

He was. He actually, the story goes that he tried out for the Washington Senators as a pitcher in the 50s. The world could have gone a different way had Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

It's probably because Calvin Griffin didn't want to give him a contract, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Well, the thing is the problem is like we can sign him, we don't know no money attached to it.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

So, but no, and so it was the rise of that. The other thing that I liked about the show was foosball arcade.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

So that was kind of the beginning of whatever, you know, we had that kind of that was something I could identify with for my big, it was very big.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So foosball, well, air hockey to me will always have a special place because if you had a friend who had an air hockey table, that was amazing. Yeah, but foosball, foosball and oh, that was fun. I was never very good. I was just spin. You know what I mean? Spin in a prey, but I don't even I don't even think you're allowed to spin in in real competitive foosball, but I was never competitive. I was if something good happened, it was pure luck.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, I was uh not great football player. Never had the fire in the belly for it. But I like to seeing that though, it just brings me back to everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people have them in their basement and arcades have them.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

We may be having another Howard Coast Hell moment. I don't know when the last time someone I saw a foosball table, so the kids may not even know what the heck those are, but it's kind of uh soccer with With I don't know, with with big paddles on rods.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah, with shaped like soccer players or something.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Shaped like little soccer players. Actually, it must kids must know about it a little bit because I was at Twins Fest, I don't know, about five, six years ago, and one of the things they were doing was human foosball. Where they just kind of have players and little kids kind of combined doing it. But beyond that, I really thought it was fine. But we I think we're talking before the show. Ken Reeves, being Ken Reeves, finds a former boxer, you know, with a son who's making it and says, Can you talk, you know, can you talk to this? Can you do me a favor? Can you talk to this guy? And so they happen to run into Salami's dad, who is hanging out at that bar and says, Hey, wait, you look like you were a boxer, and befriends him and says, Oh, I want you to meet my son. Oh, I heard of you. Oh, I heard of you too. And hey, we should go watch the amateur fights down the street. Great idea. There's Salami.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

It was a little forced, but the relationship between the father, and it wasn't really very explicit, and Carlos Palomino, who is the boxer, who was a big deal back then.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And I thought that was that's one of my memories of seeing that show and liking that particular this particular episode, that dynamic. And Carlos Palomino, if I don't recall, doesn't really say much, if at all.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

No, it's a very small role, just hey, hello.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, and but so yeah, you don't really see welterweight champions of the world hanging out at uh no, no, and yeah, and with their making their dad still be a waiter.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

I don't know. But I will tell you this that I think that Salami's dad, that that was not unusual for dads of that era. I mean this the strong silent type is not just a stereotype. It was dads didn't spend a lot of time talking about feelings in the 70s and 80s, you know what I mean? It was very much I mean, I'm not starting, I don't want to get into generation wars, but we grow up in a rub some dirt on it era, right? Are you injured or are you hurt? Because if you're injured, then you gotta come out. But if you're hurt, you can suck it up and go back in.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah. And I think too, there was the uh the trope of father, son don't talk, son defies father, yeah. But because he's trying to emulate father, father comes and sees him box and then gets in his corner and teaches him.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Teaches him. That's wonderful, though. It is a it is it's cheesy, but it also is I think it's handled well. You know what I mean? I think they fell into some TV tropes, but I think they handled it well. And once again, I like Reeves's M.O. Reeves is very much a okay, what's going on here? Let me talk to the people, let's figure this out. Yeah, he's just he never doesn't like that's not your realm or this or that. Let's talk about this, let's figure it out, Buchanan.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, and I and I thought the boxing was done very well, too. Didn't you see that?

SPEAKER_01 24:53

It was not bad. It was not bad. I mean, given the budget stuff they have, I just I think the basketball is I've definitely not teen wolf quality, you know. It's definitely better than that. And so I thought they did well with the boxing. Yeah, you're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

And I did some research on that Carlos Palomino, because I remember him big from the back. He was a welterweight.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

He was the world, he was the heavyweight or the welterweight champion of the world, okay, defended his title seven times.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

He did play Roberto Durand, he fought against, okay, lost to Roberto Durand. He retired pretty young. Okay, but then he came back at the age of 47, Carlos. Of course. And boxed in the nineties and got up to, I think, the one before that he'd get a shot at the title and then lost that in a in a decision. And but that's I was a is he still alive?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Because he in his nineties now or 74, I think. I think I think Paul that could be Aaron Paul's next opponent.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

There you go. From that, that's his right in his own.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Former champion.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, so that was yeah, it was interesting. And then the other guy who played the father, yeah, he has the name Robert Costanza as the actor. Oh, okay. He's a guy that I've seen, right, throughout character actor from that era, yeah. Yeah, that guy has done voice work, TV work, and movies, yeah, since then to all the way up to now. Yeah. So he's quite the uh character actor that you would see in big movies. And so some guys that you don't really know, but they have big careers. You don't flame out. I thought that was interesting about this show and uh the ending though, right? So I haven't I didn't see it in the next episode, but yeah, Salami boxed before he's gonna do this, see if he's gonna win the that particular ballot, the credits come up. Yeah, I bet you we don't talk about boxing again.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, we don't, and we don't, and actually, I got a tease for us, and I think we're done with Salami, unless you have anything else. No, I'm good. Wait, dope. Okay, for our next in the next episode, for the first time this season, and I think the only time in the series, they will have an Academy Award nominee on the show. Oh, very good. So we'll see if you can identify them.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Okay, yes, yes, I do.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

And the next next show is mainstream.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

I think that maybe next time we can try because we got mainstream Little Orphan Abner and Le Grand Finale. I think those last two are probably in my own mind not the strongest, but then again, I came in with a lower opinion of the Great White Dope, and I think talking through it with you, it actually is constructed better better than I had thought. That they see right now I am working on creating fiction and writing stories, and uh I am deep in the brain of how to tell stories, and telling stories is about choices, and I'm noticing that when they're writing white shadow episodes, they're not making the easy choices, you know what I mean? They're they're they're they go for subtlety and complexity over within the realm of a 70s one-hour melodrama, right? I'm not, you know, this isn't Shakespeare, but it they handle it well, and they could make it so much more cheesier. Once again, teenagers on television at that time were being depicted as welcome back, Connor. That was teenagers in this era on TV. So definitely an order of magnitude, more realistic, I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah, and I think too that even that some of the language of that age is obviously unaware of it being back there, calling the kids animals is almost happening in every episode.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yes. He doesn't do he doesn't do the one I find interesting that was very common among our coaches, which was ladies. Oh yeah, I haven't heard that. Oh yeah, ladies and then the game day. Gentlemen, you're gentlemen now, you've had a good week of practice, this and that. And I'm like going, okay, I get it, but so I'm glad that I've not seen him do that, because that would have been cr more cringe. And there's not been there's not been a huge amount of cringe in season one, is there for you?

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Or not really at all any super cringe, more surprise of the progressiveness.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

The homosexual character, or may not not even that. I mean, there's nothing.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Gender, yeah, sexuality, whatever you want to call it, just exploring the issue.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Yeah. And to think some of those things were like, I don't know, that would have just gone, maybe just gone over my head or memory just slipped it in the dust.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

I don't know how memory works exactly. I watched this at a time when I was an adolescent and had dreams of being a basketball player because I was tall. I was taller than everybody else, and oh, I could be good at this. And then that changed, and my skill did not make up for my loss and height advantage. And but I I and I remember them singing in the shower, and I thought Coolidge was cool. And I'm essentially I'm Hispanic, but I was a white kid in the suburbs around then, and it was cool to see inner city kids.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah, it was different.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

It was different, it was showing me something that was different from what I had. But they were playing a game at the time that was probably right up there with baseball, is one of my love.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, I think yeah, next episode will be ready at uh, I think we'll close out season one, and uh I'm excited about that. And but no, this has been great. I think for me it's brought a touchdown back, and every once in a while I get the nostalgia feels. I do get a I do get a little cringy with some of the language on occasion, but oh another it doesn't come up. We'll have to talk about it next next episode, but there's a word they use. It's oh boy, that's not gonna happen. Is there?

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Oh wow, I must have missed it. I must have missed it. So yeah, one of the other things, too, I'm gonna suggest that we do, and I'm just gonna put this as part of the show to see if people have opinions they can let us know. But I think you and I may have come up with a show, our next show, but maybe we have a show in between, like when we're done with the white shadow, talking about what our options are for the next show.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Oh, yeah, I think that'd be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Suggest them, and I don't want to trust it to a poll because maybe we, you know, it's the internet, so we could end up doing Peppa the Pig as the next show.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

And I am not familiar with the entire Peppa the Pig of Wah to feel like I can comment on it.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

And I don't sure want to watch Green Acres again or anything.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

But I would watch Petticoat Junction, so and there's a tie in there, so but no, there's some good ones, and I I think you suggested one that I think we'll go. There's a lot of reasons to go for, but I think it might be fun because I think we'll be able to cover some of the one-off shows that I just want to spend two minutes on as part of that exercise. But we got a ways to go. We got 40 episodes, 42, 43 episodes left. Yeah, we have three episodes in season one, and then we have season two and season three left. So we got a ways to go at Carver High School.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

But yeah, I think if we want to have an episode talking about what's next, I think that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. All right, all right, Joe Riley. It's been fun talking to you on Forgotten Television about the white shadow, and we will get together next week.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

All right, have a good week, and uh Carlos, enjoy and uh good luck with the book. Thank you, sir. Talk to you later. Bye.