How to talk to your partner without it kicking off.

In episode 1 we touched on how couples can de-escalate and walk away to avoid a row. In this episode we offer techniques to help the conversation once you've cooled off and come back together.

Neil mentions the Gottman Card Decks App during today's discussion:

https://www.gottman.com/couples/apps/ 

Thanks for listening! If you'd like to learn more about our counselling practice, you can find us at:

www.forrescounselling.com

If you'd like to contact us with any questions, thoughts or if you are looking for counselling, you can contact us on:

info@forrescounselling.com.

And if you like the podcast, please follow, rate and review. It really helps us reach new people.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome to Couple Counselling. I'm Anna Webster.

SPEAKER_05 0:16

And I'm Neil Webster. We are a couple of MBA CP counsellors, and yes, we are also a couple.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

This is a podcast aimed at anyone who has considered counselling, is considering counselling, or has never considered counselling, but has a passing interest in how a married couple of counsellors speak to each other when they're not at work.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

Each episode we'll be giving you tips on how to use counselling techniques on yourself, how to get on better with your partner, and just generally how to make life a little bit easier. All wrapped up in some light bickering from a couple who've been together for over 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Hello.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Hello.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Hello. Oh, this is getting a bit more, a bit more, a bit less excited now. Hello, this is what we do now. Hi. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

Um, thanks for joining us. Not you. No. We've been through this, well, I mean the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Yeah, I didn't say anything.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

I know. But your little hopeful look.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

Um welcome to couple counselling. That says that at the beginning, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

What are you gonna what are you gonna talk about? What am I gonna do? Well, no, let's do a little bit of hello's first.

SPEAKER_05 1:32

Let's rattle straight in. Hello everyone. What have you been up to since uh the last episode, Anna?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh well, I'm glad you asked me. I have been counselling I think like tell the truth.

SPEAKER_05 1:42

What we we've recorded two back to back because we're going away. So what have you actually been doing? We both went and had a wee. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

It's called a comfort break.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Not a wee. Well, you know, when we get into psychodynamic, then probably Freud would have a lot to say about that. Well, he probably would, but the fact that we're talking about it, he probably would have a lot to say about it. He's not been invited.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

No, very much not.

SPEAKER_05 2:10

So um I know that we've turned that around to Freud, actually I may have rescued that little section about going for a wee. Okay. Um anyway, yeah, so we haven't got a huge amount to talk about. It's not that people haven't been in touch since the last episode, they haven't been able to be in be in touch because we recorded the last episode 15 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:30

I thought it was worth mentioning because it would have sounded like after the first episode, loads of people got in touch, and after the second episode, no one got in touch.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Nobody broke down the doors.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

Hey, that might be the case. We might get to the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Imagine if there were a queue of people outside, all with questions.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

That would be weird.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

That would be weird.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

But yeah, so we'd love you to get in touch. We'd try not to attach there there's something in that though, right? The attachment to we want we're doing this because we like doing it, we like talking about it, thought we'd do a podcast. There's an element of advertising what we do.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

It's an element of just recording the thing that we do all the time anyway, which is talk about therapy because as previously discussed, we are massive.

SPEAKER_05 3:13

But there's also, you know, we put little other in for our business when we do that.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, we do want people to come to Forest Counselling.

SPEAKER_05 3:20

Forest Counselling, it was you were very good in the last episode. Thanks. You mentioned Forest Counsel a lot. Absolutely so. And now in talking about it again, we're doing it again.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah. So yes, so there's then also an element of the democratisation of mental health and availability. Yeah, because you know, a lot of apps, for example, that kind of stray into this area charge people. Um, and of course, counselling costs money. So we would like people to have access to advice on mental health.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

Some tools and tears. Some tools and tears makes it a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

But uh also there's an element of of normalizing the difficulties that uh people have, because as we've said, people do when they're struggling with something tend to believe that they are the only person struggling in this way. And so talking about cancelling psychotherapy and what people bring to us uh in our sessions might help people know that they're not alone.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

Yes. And uh as a as an adjunct to that, community, right? Yeah and what in the I'm not gonna veer off into Buddhism, don't I?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

You are though, there's a little bit of a lot of people. We all know it is getting it. You actually manage not to in the last episode.

SPEAKER_05 4:40

The Sangha, the community, is a huge part of that. It goes our shared experience, like you say, you are not alone in having uncomfortable feelings, and also we are not alone, and any way of increasing that kind of communication alleviates that feeling of feeling separate and feeling isolated, and which are often the root causes of what is wrong with me, why am I wrong? Why am I broken?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Very much so. Very much so. People believe that there is something inherently wrong with them.

SPEAKER_05 5:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's why we're doing this. Oh, and we love it and selfishly. And actually to go back to my where I started with this is also the attachment of we do want people to listen.

unknown 5:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

And I would be lying if I didn't if I said I didn't check the figures to see we've had some more listeners.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

There are people in all sorts of interesting places listening.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

On my on my previous podcasts, yeah. That idea of going, oh my god, someone in Thailand's just listened. Um hello, South Africa. Yeah, I know. Like, yeah, that's always really exciting stuff.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

It just feels like so hello to global listeners of uh couple counselling. I've got really interested.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Yeah, no, it is fascinating and brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yeah. So we've had an Indonesian spike.

SPEAKER_05 6:01

Yes, we have.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Um Is it where somebody was looking at someone sat on their phone?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Different podcasts.

SPEAKER_05 6:08

Someone sat on their phone.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

And it accidentally played our podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:15

I wonder how oh, this is not for now. I wonder how much of it you have to listen to. We can find out.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I think yeah, I think that's not relevant for now.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

So today, what is relevant for now? Yeah for today. Today, in our last episode, we were in the first episode, we were going, oh well, let's do two subjects and then immediately broke that. And then broke that because we started talking, well, we talked about anxiety, which I'm guessing you will have seen or heard uh if you're here now. Uh, and that's a big subject, and we kind of well, we scratched the surface. We did some we did the opening stuff on anxiety. There's lots of anything.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah, there's so much to say, and it's trying to get a boundary around that and around what we're sharing with people in a podcast, but also um but also giving people something useful to take away with them.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Um and there is absolutely uh loads more to be said about anxiety, or so I guess that's why we decided that that was a whole episode needed its own episode.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As you said, that there's a whole lot more to be said about anxiety. And my brain went, Yeah, we're gonna say it.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

But also, you know, going back to what you were saying about community and interaction uh and feedback, we would love to know what you know, what would you like to know about anxiety? What would you like to hear about it? What have been your experiences of it?

SPEAKER_05 7:39

So or anything else. And uh people may have gotten contact, we don't know yet, because we've just done it.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

We don't know, unless they're queuing up outside the door.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

Which would be weird. So today, so moving on to what we were gonna discuss, which we're now gonna discuss now, is following on from our first episode and diving back into couples counselling. In the first episode, we talked about the process of communication, which is a big part of couples counselling, the process over the content.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yep. And we had an argument about content, if you recall.

SPEAKER_05 8:11

Oh, I'd say argument. Was it argument?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Well, yeah, well, it was a argument.

SPEAKER_05 8:16

We're doing it all right.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Well, we tried to have an argument.

SPEAKER_05 8:18

Oh, we tried that, yeah, we had a false argument.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Just to illustrate what we mean by content.

SPEAKER_05 8:23

I keep meaning to write down when we do have a little contraton. Uh but there's been little spikes, but we tend to we tend to withdraw pretty quickly from the spikes these days.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

I think so.

SPEAKER_05 8:36

I think we're so aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

I know.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

But that's probably something festering. Something licks something may explode at some point. He's hoping for the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Do festering things explode?

SPEAKER_05 8:47

Let's find out.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

I've got I've got a couple that are on the boiler.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Scientists out there. Does a festering thing commonly explode? Or does a burning thing tend to explode?

SPEAKER_05 8:58

Yeah, okay. Right, so today, so back to couples. And so, yes, the process and very much our starting point in when we couple counsel separately, just to reiterate again, we don't do it in the same time in the room.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

I think it's just like one of your friends who thinks we do, no. Everybody else is reasonably clear that in a couples counselling session there is one therapist and two clients, okay? Yeah, just your mate who who doesn't get that.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

But so our kind of starting point and our focus is emotion-focused EFT. What does the T stand for? Therapy. Therapy. Oh wow. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

What did you think? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 9:42

I just blanked. I know emotion and I know it's the focus.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I thought, what's the T Well that's that's reassuring indicating a lack of focus.

SPEAKER_05 9:51

That's reassuring for a therapy podcast. What's the T, Stanford, Anna?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

That comfort break should have been longer.

SPEAKER_05 10:03

Yeah, it really should have. So, yes, emotion focus is that is our focus in couples counselling because the emotion is the process. That's what's actually happening, and the content is find and replace. You'll always find stuff that you that you can use to throw at each other or get defensive or argue about, but it's not really the stuff. So, as we said in the in the first episode, people couples often come and go, We're arguing about this. What and there's a sense of are you gonna kind of referee or come down on one person's side and go, Yes, she's right, you're wrong about that. But we're not in that business. We're in the business of going, what are you actually communicating?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

The relationship is our client.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

The relationship is our client, and it's to do with it's to do with our attachment styles, maybe. So things that so those emotions are we feel at the root of a lot of couples' arguments are the feeling of, am I lovable? Am I going to be abandoned? That's that's quite succinct, isn't it? Because that is what it's kind of all about. So, yes, so emotion focus and it's about does my partner love me? Are they going to abandon me? And so those defensive mechanisms that kick in. And so, to recapping from episode one, we talked about that first thing which is flooding, which is the emotional escalation that happens in couples' arguments, in all couples' arguments, and it's the first thing to deal with because we can't get into the actual emotion focus while people are throwing, I'm gonna say, mud at each other. When people get escalated and and we're off, we're off off to the races, and the adrenaline kicks in and the fight starts, and the prefrontal cortex.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, all your emotional regulation centres are offline. You are in that fight or flight state where there is very much a super highway between stimulus and response, and concentrating on anything else is pretty much impossible. So it is nigh-on impossible to have any kind of reparative conversation with your partner when you are in that state.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

And uh what we said was about uh taking a break, uh, but you put some really useful parameters around what that break should look like.

SPEAKER_05 12:25

Yeah, there's some rules. So when you take a break, you stop, you have a signal, you stop. A pre-determined signal if possible, because otherwise they can be seen as further weapons in the fight if we need to stop talking about this now. These are all part of defensiveness, these are all part of the five.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

There was a word, do you remember?

SPEAKER_05 12:46

There's a word, Jedi for us. We haven't had to use Jedi yet. Um so there's a word or a symbol, or you know, you can play your joker. Like it's literally if there's a thing you can pick up.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:59

So you stop as soon as you feel this escalation, you agree to move away from each other to different spaces, but crucially, you agree a time to come back. So there aren't any feelings of abandonment. They should be no shorter than 20 minutes. Twenty minutes is the minimum because that's how long it takes for that the very shortest time it takes for that adrenaline spike to come and pass. You move into a different space, you do your very best to not ruminate or prepare arguments for when you're going back to each other, and you self-soothe by doing something that calms you down, which could be a breathing technique, it could be meditation, it could be playing your guitar, it could be listening to music, could be crochet. Could be crochet. Uh you had to get the crochet in.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

I did. You that's uh word for the crocheters.

SPEAKER_05 13:45

Yes, word for the crocheters. Um so then you do that, then you come back.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

And no texting, just in case people think that's communicating.

SPEAKER_05 13:56

In so many ways, it can be the worst form of communication.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Fighty texting absolutely counts.

SPEAKER_05 14:02

All texting can be read as fighty texting when you're in that state.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Quite so so no texting.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

Which is again a sub a subject for down the line.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

But that's but no, it's uh it's worth mentioning because some clients think, right, well, I've left my partner and now I'm in another room or even another, you know, place, but I'm going to carry on texting.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Don't do that.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Please don't do that. So that's what we covered in the first episode. Uh but that doesn't really address of what we do say to each other when we're back in the room. So we're gonna start that now. We're gonna start looking at what you can do, how you have the conversation that avoids escalation. And so to look at that, we're gonna start with the principle of how your conversation starts. Because it broadly falls into two categories harsh startups and soft startups, and no prizes for getting which one that we prefer. So the way a conversation starts is a predictor that what you say in the first 30 seconds is absolutely a predictor of the tone of the conversation in five minutes time.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

So the starting point is so important. There's actually a cool extension of that of that idea is that what you say in the first 30 seconds is a predictor of how you're talking to each other in five years' time.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

It becomes it becomes the routine, it becomes the mode of communication. So if we go in with accusatory language, fighting talk, blame, shame, all of those things as a kind of default, yeah, then immediately our partner feels under attack and we're straight back into flooding.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

So what we're aiming to do is find a way of going, let's get out of those routines. And they're routines that we all get into because we all feel under attack, we're all doing the as ever, we're all doing the best with the tools we have. And if our partner comes in and says something that we receive as an attack, then our fight or flight kicks straight back in and goes, I'm under attack.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, and so we employ defenses.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

Yes, and as previously discussed, our fight or flight has no nuance, it doesn't go, oh, this is just someone reaching out to us or trying to make a point. We go, we're under attack, so our adrenaline kicks in and we're off.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:29

So we want to start these conversations in a way that doesn't engage these responses.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:38

So how do we do that? Okay, so let's first talk about what the harsh startups are and what those might sound like. So, yes. So, so we would go back to there are various again, I've mentioned these before. There are various practitioners and there are this couple called the Gottmans in The Godlike Gottmans. The Godlike Gottmans, uh American, there are couples experts, and they have defined the kind of four things to look for in the way that you start conversations and continue conversations with your partner. And if you're going down these routes, these are harsh startups, these are these are ways of engaging that are going to result in escalation, in flooding, in fighting. And then it doesn't matter what we're talking about because we're just fighting again. When we're back into he said, she said, we lost because we're not listening, we are just projecting what we've heard as an attack back. So the first one is criticism.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:42

So we criticize our partners in interactions all the time, and a criticism is it can be broken down. A criticism is a kind of universal statement. You always you always, you never. It's always it's so what it goes to, it goes to character. It says there's something fundamentally wrong with you if you always do this. So why do you always leave your socks on the floor? You always do that. How many times do I have to tell you that you're leaving your socks on the floor and I have to go around picking them up after you?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

So that's there is a flaw in you.

SPEAKER_05 18:22

There is a flaw in you. You always do this.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Or there is a sock on the floor.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

There is a sock on the floor. Um, so that's the that's the criticism.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 18:34

And that is a harsh start-up because it is an attack on someone's.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So you always and you never are quite good.

SPEAKER_05 18:42

Are there really two big flags there? There are other flags, but they're the main ones. You always, you never. And so what can we replace that with? So we've got criticism, and we we might have grievances. It might be annoying that I'm constantly picking up your socks. Like this is an example that absolutely is not- I was gonna say that's literally never happened. No, your socks are never on the floor, they are never on the floor. But there may be behaviour that is annoying you and you want to address, but what we want to focus on is the specific rather than the universal. Okay. So rather than can criticism, we go to complaint. It's fine to complain. Complaining is Ah that's counterintuitive, yes, it is because because if you have a if if there's something that's not right, not not voicing it is bottling it up.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

And as we know from lots, every couple knows this, little things start to build up. And so then the argument that happens four days down the line has its roots in the little bit of anger I feel every time I see his, her socks on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Okay, so how do I address the sock situation using a complaint and not a criticism?

SPEAKER_05 20:05

So the complaint is specific, right? Okay. So we're talking about an event. And it's can sometimes feel a bit artificial when you first start using this technique. But to turn a kind of criticism into a complaint and actually to start all conversations in a soft startup rather than a harsh start-up, we talk about how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Right. So you're taking ownership of your reaction to this situation.

SPEAKER_05 20:33

You start with I exactly that. You start with I feel this.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:37

So I'm feeling unheard is the root of what you often what we're feeling in in relationships, but I'm feeling annoyed because I because of, and then we talk about a situation. So we're taking you out of this communication. I feel frustrated that there are socks on the floor, and then we add at the end what you need. So I feel this about what and not about who. And what I need is this to feel better.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Right. So we're taking ownership of our struggle, yeah, and then we are asking for what we need.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

Yes, we're taking ownership for our struggle, and we're not and it's not turning into blame immediately.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:28

I feel frustrated because you always leave your socks on the floor. We're back, we're right back into harsh start-ups.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

So I'm struggling m because I feel overwhelmed that the house is a mess.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

And I need everybody to pick up their own things. Yes. There's no you in there. No you always no you never.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

No you never is no it's not a direct assault on your character.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Mm-hmm. So we've expressed annoyance. We haven't said we're happy about it.

SPEAKER_05 21:56

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

But we've owned the feeling. Yes. We've owned that we're struggling. With the feeling, and we have offered a solution.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

Yes. So that's and so that dynamic, I feel about what I need. Like I repeat that a lot, as I'm sure you do, in in couples therapy, because it's a thing, and as I say, I'm there's an awareness that can feel quite artificial when we first start employing it because we're heading off into our into our normal routines as a couple, and then we go, no, let's stop, let's do the thing the therapist told us.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:29

And it feels a bit like that actually, what we're doing is we're taking the accusation, we're taking the fi out of this, and we're talking about emotion. Emotion-focused therapy. It's the T stands for therapy, by the way. I don't know if you knew that.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Oh no, thanks. Thanks for clarifying. Um, I think the thing you're right, it does feel artificial, and it can I think what some clients' feedback is, it can feel initially a bit therapy-ish.

SPEAKER_05 22:57

Yes. And it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Because it is.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

However, what I would say is that it is surprisingly effective. Give it a whirl, because it it really does, it really does make quite a big difference. And actually, you can try it out even if you know, if you're if you find yourself in disagreement or in potential disagreement with anybody else, it doesn't have to be a partner. Try using that technique, take it take ownership of uh what uh you are feeling.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

And then uh take ownership of what you would like to happen because you know you are massively qualified to speak to that, right? You know, you know how you feel, yeah, and you know what you need. So uh so you know, st stay stay in your lane, I guess, is is another way of looking at that.

SPEAKER_05 23:48

Speak to what you know, yeah, and express where you are, right? And there's there's a really great centre of this, which is it's very hard to argue with an emotion. I can't if you say I'm feeling this, I can't say well no you're not. Because you know how you are feeling. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, you do make it, you do close down the potential for that sort of, you know, what we talked about in that first episode of what can feel like a game of tennis, that yes you are, no you're not, yeah, yeah, back and forth. But because I know how I feel.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

Yes. I I feel this about this event that's caused me some distress. This is what I would like to have them. And so then that's expressed in a way that isn't attacking. This is how I feel about these things.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

And if you also say that you are struggling, yes, and that what actually what you need is is help.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Yes. Yes, it's a it's a bid for help. It's a bid for connection.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

That's an even more vulnerable position to take, but but that often works really well if you can introduce an element of vulnerability. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 24:59

Well, emotion is vulnerability, right? So that's what in that prediction.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

But if you can signal that with your language, that that helps even more.

SPEAKER_05 25:06

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

It it makes people less likely to want to get into that kind of harsh communication style.

SPEAKER_05 25:14

Yes, and a big part of this, of the response to this, I feel uh about what I need is as the partner who is hearing this, the first thing to do is to validate uh that feeling. I can really hear you're angry, I can really hear that's frustrating you.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

And again, that can sound quite therapy-ish.

SPEAKER_05 25:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Because it is.

SPEAKER_05 25:38

Because it is, but there's but there's a underlying that what there is is the communication is we are listening to each other.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Which is hugely reparative in itself, because I would say probably the most common complaint is that the person can't be heard by their partner.

SPEAKER_05 25:56

I don't feel heard, he's ignoring me, we can't communicate. Yeah. When you're saying we can't communicate, which is the root of couples counseling, is a breakdown of communication. If you can't communicate, what does that mean? You are saying things that aren't being heard.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

And then you feel abandoned and desperate and yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:16

So the the kind of takeaway, the first takeaway is how do we start these conversations? And the soft startup is talking about how we feel about a situation and what we need, and then the response from the partner there's an opportunity there to attack, don't attack, just say I can hear that. Right? Just say I've heard you in whichever way I can hear that top set you. And you know, as you've said, an expression of emotion is an expression of vulnerability, and it's a it's a bid for help, it's a bid for understanding and communication. So the response is oh, I can hear that.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

I've noticed that's being expressed.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

Yes, yes. So that's that's a big starting point. Criticism and it criticism is a default because we're not starting any of these conversations in a void. Often we're carrying something from the previous conversation. So yesterday something else happened, and so then that irritation of the socks is actually just the latest bit of content in this in this communication cycle.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

So none of these things are the instigating moment for an argument. They're all one continuum of some repressed or pushed down emotion or some sense of feeling aggrieved at something that happened earlier on.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

So actually, where we start, if we can cut that off at the pass and go, this is what I'm feeling. I can hear you're feeling that. We're already on a road to a much more collaborative and softer communication style, which is what people are going to therapy for.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

Like we all say with these kind of therapeutic techniques in the room. If it were that simple, then you'd say that once people have walk away, they do that, and job done, and we'd be out of work, and the world would be a really happy place. Really happy place. Takes work, right? And as we've said, because of the uh initial artificial nature of these things have changed our communication, we have to safeguard against that becoming a weapon in itself. Oh, you're doing the thing. Okay, yeah, I am doing the thing, and I'm doing the thing in the interest of starting a conversation in a softer setting.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah, and I guess it is worth saying, just as a bit of a side note on couples therapy, which doesn't happen usually in individual therapy, is that you need buying from both halves of the couple, and that's uh something that potentially is problematic. You do sometimes get one half of the couple who is very keen to work, and the other half of the couple who feels like they've quote unquote been dragged to therapy.

SPEAKER_05 29:18

Yeah, and there's the again, this is attachment stuff, but defining that there's the pursuer withdrawer, and these are all to do with our attachment styles and how we deal with stress.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

That one but one half of the couple may be quite a lot keener to embrace this work initially than the other one is. One may be more conversant with therapy generally than the other one. That's a thing too. So it is worth saying that that this kind of language and way of operating may feel more comfortable to one half of the couple.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

As opposed to the other.

SPEAKER_05 29:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

And and there is work to be done there.

SPEAKER_05 30:02

Yes, indeed. So that's criticism. Let's move on to the second, shall we?

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Let's.

SPEAKER_05 30:07

Uh contempt. So contempt is taking criticism and turning the mean dial up a lot.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

When we're treating someone with contempt, we are mocking them, there's sarcasm, eye rolling, ridiculing, calling them names, mimicking, um, scoffing.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Scoffing. Scoffing.

SPEAKER_05 30:33

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

That feels like quite a kind of Edwardian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:38

Yeah. Okay. Maybe less scoffing happens these days. I don't think so. I'm reaching for the most contempt.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Contemptuous modes of yesteryear.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

Yeah, if we're doing those.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Welcome to 1920.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

Uh but anyway, contempt goes beyond criticism. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

So Because what are we saying with contempt? What we're saying is uh now your distress is not worthy of my notice. Yes, it's there's a kind of I'm closing it down.

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Criticism is a complaint about someone's character.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yeah. Contempt but but it is still engagement. You are you are engaging with their character and with their way of being contempt signals you're beneath me.

SPEAKER_05 31:24

There's a I've got a moral superiority over you.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:27

So how do we hear that in the room? You're oh you're tired. Oh boo-hoo.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, boo-hoo.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

That's could you be any more pathetic than you are at the moment? Yeah, those are the kind of verbal versions. As per. As per or that's a brutal one. As per.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

I can only give this two syllables.

SPEAKER_05 31:47

Yes, yes. And those are the verbal ones, and they're and and they sound they are harsh, they are contemptuous, but often content comes delivered in a non-verbal way. Yes, it does. So that eye rolling in particular, and you see that in again in the kind of counselling room. Often people have got to often people come to council couples counselling because things have got bad, right? They're at the end of their tether, it's often can be near a breakup point. It's like people are in a state of anguish, and so contempt, eye rolling, mocking, often because the counsellor is in the room as well, and they're communicating this to you. So one member of the couple can be saying something, and often you see the other member of the couple eye rolling or huffing.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Sighing, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:41

Sighing. Uh, but it's a sign, it's a sign that things have got worse. And that's when we go back into when we talked about texting earlier and that form of communication, because there's that non-verbal thing that is contempt, yeah. Often we read texts in that way. We have a negative bias. Yes. How many times when you read something you go, how dare they talk to me like that?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah, if you put marvelous on a text. Yes. Yes, you can spell marvelous.

SPEAKER_05 33:09

If you can spell marvellous, then uh if you can't, you'll be picked up by the other partner going spelling question mark.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah, but but yeah, marvellous. I mean, marvellous could mean marvelous.

SPEAKER_05 33:18

Marvelous, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Or it could mean marvellous.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

So many times, if we're in a row with someone and we're on text and you read a text, you go, how dare they speak to me like that? Well, they're not speaking to you like anything, they are just the words, but we are hearing them.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

We will imbue them with contempt.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

Because we have a negative bias, because we think, well, our brain goes, Well, if we have to choose between negative and positive bias, negative keeps us safe.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Most of our thoughts, in fact, have have a negative spin because, again, self-protection. Uh no point in seeing all the lovely sheep in the field if you didn't see the wolf.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Particularly in these situations where our defence mechanisms are activated, we are quite literally programmed to to see the negative. So if there is a if there is a possibility of contempt in a statement, uh we'll read it as that.

SPEAKER_05 34:06

That's a good thing. And that's online. That's the online. That's all of that, all of those fights. Yes. But that's why that's why, you know, those social media arguments, it's just get shouty. But so that's that's a side that's a s a sidebar. But that notion of contempt, we know things are getting problematic when contempt.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

How do we decontempt things? Decontemptualise.

SPEAKER_05 34:37

No, that's not a word, is it?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

That's good though.

SPEAKER_05 34:42

Discontempt. We anti-uncontempt people or ourselves through well, the opposite of contempt is appreciation, it's intimacy, it's connection.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

And actually, that's what couples talk about, isn't it? When they come to couples counselling, they will often say, We've lost each other, he or she isn't the person I married or the person who I first met.

SPEAKER_05 35:05

How do we get back to that? How do we get back to that?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I feel like have we lost that? Yeah, has that changed forever?

SPEAKER_05 35:10

And that fear, the massive fear that is never coming back. And so the ultimate end of that is are we on the road to breaking up?

SPEAKER_01 35:18

And people start to question whether it was ever there. Yes. You know, did I just misread it in the first place?

SPEAKER_05 35:23

Yes. So how do you rebuild that culture of appreciation? How do you rediscover it? Well, there are hundreds of methods, and as ever, you would try different things with the couple, and if it didn't work, it's the method that hasn't worked rather than the couple that are failing.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, because as with all forms of therapy, there are uh kind of standard interventions, if you like, things that uh quite often work for quite a lot of people, but specifically what works for you, either as an individual or as a couple, is going to be unique. Bespoke. Yes, bespoke. We are all absolutely unique and relationships are also unique.

SPEAKER_05 36:01

Yeah. So that's the work of the work of the counsellor, the therapist, is to discover what works for you.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:08

And help and introduce you to that and kind of act as a guide.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

So appreciation, what kind of thing would we be talking about there?

SPEAKER_05 36:18

Well, there's lots of, you know, there's lots of apps and forms. It kind of a lot of it takes the form, or some of it takes the form of questionnaires, a bit like a bit like the kind of magazines from the 80s. What's uh what's uh not just 17 like I am reaching here. What but it is those things all the kind of lifestyle questions, A, B, or C. There's an element of that to this where you're asking each other questions. So there are Mr.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

and Mrs. type questions.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

Mr. and Mrs. is a perfect actually, Mr. and Mrs. is a therapeutic device, right? It's very much that. What are your what are your partner's preferences now? Uh how well do you know your partner now? And how do you let's relearn if we've gone on to kind of parallel tracks and we're living separate lives? Let's come back together and find out what what what are our dreams, what are our hopes, what do we do in the day, what do what do we like, you know?

SPEAKER_01 37:15

When I met him or her, what were the kind of quirky things? What what made me giggle about what they did or what they liked or their way of being? What did what was particularly attractive about that?

SPEAKER_05 37:28

Yes, so there are apps, and I'll post maybe like there's a Gottman app, the Gottmans, always the Gottmans.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

There are loads of these things.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

But there are loads of things, but there's one, there's a free one. I think you have to put your you have to give away some data, you have to put your email address in or whatever, but actually all of the all of the little cards on it are free.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

There's so are you gonna post uh put put that in the in the yeah, I'll post it in the show notes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:52

So there's an example on there, which is just questions that you ask each other about each other, which are really good starting points. So, like describe your partner's day in detail yesterday. So, how much do you know, how well do you know what your partner does in the day?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 38:14

I can describe my own day in reverse. Well, but I didn't ask. Went to bed, yeah. Got out of bed, yawned, had some cocoa. Yeah, no, not that. Not that you can do that. Why not that? That can be quite funny.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah, or yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:32

But yeah, so those questions are who are your partner's three best friends? What makes your partner what are the three things that make your partner laugh the most?

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Yeah, that's a nice one. Things that's always a nice one.

SPEAKER_05 38:41

Yeah, and so all of those things are just like let's reconnect on what you who you are and where you are now.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Can I make a suggestion?

SPEAKER_05 38:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Okay. At the risk of being vulnerable. Yes. I feel like there should be a drum roll now.

SPEAKER_05 38:55

Yeah, okay. I can put that in afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

I'm not gonna Okay. Um we said that we were going to apply something of ourselves. I just wondered, should we give an example of a very we're talking about things in our partners that's a very you thing. Like, what's a very you thing, you know, that we've appreciated.

SPEAKER_05 39:15

You know what? Right there, I'm gonna look up the questions.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

We're gonna look up the question.

SPEAKER_05 39:18

That's a good that's I've got the app on my phone because I have used it with clients and it's great.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

What is the app called?

SPEAKER_05 39:25

It's called Gottman Cards. Because they like to brand everything with their name. Well, fair enough. Well, we're doing a podcast, like we're in that position. Um, like literally the first question that's come up random card. Yeah. What is your partner's favourite time for making love?

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Oh, okay, that's not for that.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

742. Next.

SPEAKER_05 39:50

I think I am gonna put that in. 742. Yeah, that's going in. Um, what makes your partner feel most competent? That's quite philosophical, these are even more philosophical. Um there's simple ones like what's your partner's favourite food, which sounds quite benign, but actually, yeah, I think these things are just it's causing you to stop and think and and and connect with the person now.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:18

What's your partner's favourite way to spend an evening? What kind of present would your partner like best? Childhood experiences, favorite holiday, there's like lots of things, but they're kind of starting points to have a discussion, right? And in the same way that we had the first one came up was about time, the best time to have sex. That instigated a moment of connection because we were laughing at the question, right? That's an important thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

I still am laughing at the question.

SPEAKER_05 40:45

Yeah, I'm laughing at the answer. 742 is very good. Um, so that's building a culture of appreciation, it's turning towards each other positively, yeah, is the antidote to connect.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

It's actually, it's actually the willingness to stop and pay attention to that and to the person as opposed to getting the answer right.

SPEAKER_05 41:08

Yes, yes, and it's it's exactly that, and it's listening and engaging.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, if if the question is what's Anna's favourite food, and you say mashed potato and it's noodles, that's not actually the That's not gonna kill the life of anyone's life, but it's the fact that you stopped and gave that some thought.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Which is the opposite of contempt, because contempt is a a closure, a um unwillingness to engage with something.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

Yes, absolutely that.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

And that's the opposite of that.

SPEAKER_05 41:41

Yes, and contempt is kind of regarded as one of the most problematic and depleting things that can happen between a couple. Like there's been research that's shown that we're more likely to suffer from infectious illnesses if there's a lot of contempt in a relationship because it's exhausting, it's depleting, it's diminishing, like it has an effect on us, it has an effect on our mood. When we are contemptuous of each other, that's bringing us down, it's putting us into this state that is less able and less connected and less resilient.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Absolutely. And and I mean, when people in trauma work, when uh we look at what trauma therapists call little T traumas, so kind of those cumulative traumas that have uh kind of happened over time, they will often cite uh relationship breakdown. Yes, yes, absolutely as as a trauma, and with all the associated things that go with that. As you say, uh in terms of uh depleted immunity, uh less resilience to infection, more people experiencing chronic pain, all sorts of you know, physical uh symptoms that people will experience. So these do have huge ramifications, these are not just sort of airy fairy concepts for couples with kind of too much time on their hands. These these have massive ramifications for people's well-being.

SPEAKER_05 43:07

Of all of the all of these signs, contempt is the single greatest predictor of divorce. So if there's a lot of contempt in a relationship, that's the thing that needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Get yourself to couples counselling. Get yourself to couples counselling, or we would say that, but yeah, but it needs it needs addressing.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

What we you need to do, or what needs to happen, is a reconnection and turning towards each other.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

And that's because the more contempt there is in the relationship, the harder that can be to do on your own, anyway.

SPEAKER_05 43:39

And contempt is going back to criticism, it's fuelled by the long repeating negative thoughts about a partner, which comes from being unheard, which comes from criticism, which comes from this kind of universality of you always, you never. That long term negativity turns into Into contempt and that's dangerous. Another big thing that I like to use is building rituals, which is building little things in a day that you just go, it's a little moment to go, oh, we do this. What's the first thing you do when you wake up? Is the first thing we'll do when we wake up? Grab our phones.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Grab our phones.

SPEAKER_05 44:21

Yes, of course, because that's the nature of that thing is constantly pulling us. Do we have to do that? Could we build in a ritual, build in little rituals that are like the behavioural versions of a soft start-up? If there's a little bid to communication like making your partner coffee in the morning, that starts the day in a kind of bid, in a kind of positive, you're putting, you know, you've got a you've got something, you've got some credit in the account.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Putting some positivity into the relationship. So that's there's lots of ways of building that appreciation.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

And again, if listeners have got rituals.

SPEAKER_05 45:00

Yes, rituals or any ways of bids or examples of things that have turned around because of that.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

We'd like to hear.

SPEAKER_05 45:13

This episode is brought to you by forestcounselling.com. Are you struggling with thoughts, emotions, or behaviours that seem out of your control? Maybe you're experiencing anxiety, depression, trauma, low self-esteem, or issues with addiction. There could be conflict in your relationship that you feel you can't resolve. We can help. Contact us at forestcounselling.com where we offer face-to-face and online therapy. Contempt. Now we're on to defensiveness. And it's a response, it's another response to criticism. So when uh we spoke before about I feel about what I need, and then the response, if the response is I can hear you, yeah, then that's a positive response back quite often because we feel attacked by the first statement, less so if you've done the soft start-up. But still, if there's a harsh start-up, if you've been criticized, if there's been a complaint, this is easy because you're talking about a specific thing. But if it's a criticism, you always, then we often respond with defensiveness. The main in my experience, the main defensive response is you know how busy I am. Yeah, why didn't you just do it?

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 46:45

And so that's a defensiveness, right? And that's a common defensiveness at the moment in our lives because everybody's life. I don't think I've met a couple yet who haven't had, as part of the soup of the stuff they're bringing, time and resource.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Always. Always, always, always.

SPEAKER_05 47:04

People are we're in a world where we are pushed and we are constantly asked to do more, improve ourselves more, and do better. And so relationships often come at the expense of that. People are trying to build their careers, they're trying to make ends meet, they're trying to look after young children, they're trying to, you know, there's so many things going on.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

And I think actually, uh, where there was an idea that working remotely would kind of ease that in in many ways, it's made it worse because there are now very blurred boundaries between work and not work. So people feel like they're at work always.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

Yeah, well, let's go back to that rituals. The first thing you do in the morning, you pick up your phone. Yeah. What's probably if we had to ask people what's the thing they look at first, emails and texts, yeah. And what's what are we looking for then? If some if your boss has emailed you at two in the morning and you've picked it up at seven in the morning, you feel compelled to respond.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah, so in a world of of FOMO, as it's called, the fear of missing out, the defensiveness is a big uh a big problem uh when it it manifests as I'm too busy. You don't understand how busy my life is. You don't understand that this is the latest in a long, long list of demands.

SPEAKER_05 48:18

Yes, and it it's not just that defensiveness, but that is no no, it's very common manifestation of it.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

It could be I'm too stressed to hear you. That that is a form of defensiveness too.

SPEAKER_05 48:33

So when a partner responds defensively, what they're doing is they're reversing the blame. And so it's an attempt to make it the other person's fault. That defensive bid is received as well, it's your fault. It's supposed to be a defense shield.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

It's if you imagine it as a shield, the the the uh it's repelling it back, it's supposed to repel it back to the other person.

SPEAKER_05 48:57

So it's it can be perfectly understandable to defend yourself if you're stressed, but it won't, it doesn't have the effect that in our ideal mind we go, well, I was I told you I had too much on. When does that ever get the response? You are so right.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Yeah. Oh give it to me.

SPEAKER_05 49:15

I mentioned that now you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I think what we've done in that scenario is we've confused it with what we were talking about earlier, which is asking for what you need.

SPEAKER_05 49:26

Yes. So I feel about this. Go back to let's go back to that soft startup, let's have a soft response. Why didn't you do that? And you can go, oh, I forgot.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:39

I feel really overwhelmed with work and this XXX and whatever else we're doing. I feel so overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

You can acknowledge what has happened within the context of your experience.

SPEAKER_05 49:53

Yes, yes, absolutely right, absolutely right. This is how I this is where I am. This is showing your vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Do you know what you often say? No, it's a good one. Buckle up.

SPEAKER_05 50:04

Oh no, it's a good one. Oh no, oh yeah, go on, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

It's very non-defensive. You often say it's on my list.

SPEAKER_05 50:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

And it is on my list, and yeah, and it's a kind I always think is is a nice one because you're acknowledging that you know that that there's a a thing to be done.

SPEAKER_05 50:24

Yes, and I do do it, I suppose. If I said it's on my list and I never did it, that would be a thing.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

No, let's go back to but but you do do the list, but I but I always quite like that one. It's on my list.

SPEAKER_05 50:34

Okay, that's good. And that's and it's the tone again, right? Go back to nuance and text. If I texted you it's on my list, you could read question marks. Yeah, you could read that as it's on my list.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah, that's true. That's very true.

SPEAKER_05 50:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

But that's you you never text that, you say that, and you don't uh say it in a in a contemptuous way. No, and you say it with with genuineness.

SPEAKER_05 51:01

Oh, thank you. So that's defensiveness, and as we say, the the antidote to that is taking responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Accepting There you go, it's on my list.

SPEAKER_05 51:12

There you go, it's on my list. It's it is on my list. Accepting your partner's perspective and you can offer an apology if there's been wrongdoing.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can it's not that you shouldn't offer an apology, but sometimes couples get very trapped in the if if one of us offers an apology, that means somebody has expected blame and someone's at fault, and that can have a whole life of its own.

SPEAKER_05 51:34

Yes. So that's that's defensiveness, and then the last one is stonewalling. Right. And stonewalling is kind of going full circle. Stonewalling is it's a kind of exhaustion point at the end of the other three. Yeah. But when we get to stonewalling, we know we're at a place where it's a response to contempt, uh, mainly contempt, because once you've been kind of belittled, you take your ball in. Once you've once there's this kind of Because actually, where can you go?

SPEAKER_01 52:05

If if the person has said, effectively said la la la la, I'm not listening with their hands over their ears, which is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_05 52:11

Okay, okay, I'll shut down then.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

So you go to shut down, that's the only place to go.

SPEAKER_05 52:15

I'll stop responding. You know, it is all of those things that are like tuning out, not engaging, having diversion reactivity, going somewhere else, and it's a sign that the negativity that is that has accumulated over time has now reached a point where what's the point? What's the point in even trying to communicate?

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Um and it might be worth saying that this might sound a little bit like the kind of timeout strategy that we were suggesting previously, which is is not the same thing because that's a very um boundaried, discussed in advance method for dealing with um escalation.

SPEAKER_05 52:55

But it's also it can also that thing can also be a method for dealing with stonewalling. So you're right, it's not it's it's almost the opposite, but they sound this thing of not communicating mutually in a time-bound way through full consent is a way of repairing.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

That's the crucial difference, that it's got pre-agreed boundaries and rules to it. Stonewalling is not that.

SPEAKER_05 53:20

No, that's not communicating that's just not engaging at all. Like the mutual consent is engaging to find a place to communicate in a calm manner.

SPEAKER_03 53:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:31

Stonewalling is the opposite of that. Is you ask me a question, I'm not listening.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:38

And at that point, stonewalling is often a sign that the relationship is in trouble. Because at that point, when communication completely stops, then what is the relationship?

SPEAKER_01 53:50

And we do meet those couples, don't we? Couples who are almost having no communication outside of the therapy room.

SPEAKER_04 54:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Or certainly no positive communication, and sometimes just very little communication. Yeah. Or what might be happening is there'll be sort of flares in very escalated communication followed by protracted periods of stonewalling.

SPEAKER_05 54:19

Yes. It's like you fight, you fight, you fight, I'll give up. And so the antidote to that is essentially trying to get back to the repair of communication. So we go back to what we discussed at the beginning with flooding. So it's a form in the way that flooding is this explosion of anger and defensiveness, fight and flight, and we need to bring things back down. Stonewall is the kind of freeze and flop version of that where we're playing dead with the relationship, which, as we know, when we go in to talk about trauma and those things, it's a more severe form. It is because it's helplessness.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

It's like when you're fighting or running away, you're trying to-or if I think there's there's not a good chance that that's gonna work, then I just play next.

SPEAKER_05 55:07

Yeah, and so playing dead in a relationship is being non-responsive and relationships wither and die when there's no response. And often stonewalling, there's a big correlation between stonewalling and the start of affairs. Because when people aren't receiving any communication or affection or any response, there's a need in them for that, and they go elsewhere, or that's where that starts to flourish somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Flourish is maybe the wrong word, but but yeah, where those needs uh uh are being met somewhere else.

SPEAKER_05 55:39

Yes. Um and that's not to in any way to attribute blame to it either side, and and infidelity is a whole other 35 podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Well, yeah, it is very much so.

SPEAKER_05 55:50

But infidelity is a symptom of these breakdowns.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 55:55

So that's that's a lot. It's a lot, and that's a lot, there's a lot of work in those things. There's a lot, it's more than three and less than five. Three and less than five, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Um, but that is that is the word these are broad categorizations of the difficulties that arise between people, and and I think it is just worth underlining what we said at the top of this episode, which is that these are not problems which reside within one partner or the other, they are problems in the communication that exists between you.

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

That's the start of the work, really, that we are doing in couples counselling is getting couples to view the problems as something that exists between them and therefore actually something that they are united in. If they don't feel united in anything else, actually they do have a common enemy, and believe it or not, their responses to that common enemy are their ways of trying to protect the relationship. So, again, they are working uh in a common cause, even if they don't feel like they are, and that's at the very start of the work.

SPEAKER_05 57:02

That's brilliant. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Thanks.

SPEAKER_05 57:06

Welcome. Um, yes, and so as you said, they're they're the start of the work, and often do we go forwards and backwards and we get lost in it again, and there are triggers, and then when we get into the deeper work, what again we go back into the stuff? What are those attachment models and blueprints that are causing us to feel like we're under attack?

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Whoa, whoa, you're hang on, hang on, you're throwing loads of things into the customer. Wait a minute, I'm gonna have to keep ringing that bell. Attachment blueprint, yeah, loads of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 57:34

But I've I'll park that there, but there's stuff, stuff behind it, stuff behind our responses.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, this this identification of the difficulty in the communication is just the first step on the journey, and you will often get couples in an early stage of the therapy to describe what a fight looks like.

SPEAKER_05 57:54

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That's quite a kind of a key uh just break it down, slowing it down information. Slowing down slowing it down is a lot, can be a lot of the work because people get they're off. Yeah, whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah, galloping horses, yes, and so all of those things can take again, as we've said with the other episodes, these are tips and nods and things that you can take away. Don't feel like you're failing if you try it and it doesn't work. It these things take time. We have got we have got long established patterns that we exist in, and not just us, not just us, and you may have to.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

I I think it's always worth saying, and this is something I say in the room a lot, both in individual counselling and in couples counselling, is that it took a long time to get here.

SPEAKER_04 58:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

So we're not expecting to you know do whatever the work is, notice our thoughts and go, oh right, job done, or identify the communication difficulties in relationship and say, right, that's it, job done.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

It's important, and because it's important, it'll take some time. If it wasn't important and we could turn it around in five seconds, it wouldn't be important. No.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

And you would have done that already, actually, because you are smart, agentic, and uh you know, people who want actually to be in healthy relationships. So if it was that easy to fix, you'd have done that, and on you go.

SPEAKER_05 59:13

Yeah, absolutely. So that's our that's our relatively brief look at what you say after the flooding stops, where you start. And I suppose the takeaway, the small the small takeaway of this is ten second takeaway is start with I feel about what and I need. If that's the lighthouse to head towards, and it may feel like I say, it may feel a bit artificial at first, but that principle of this is what's going on for me and not attacking, and no contempt, and no criticism, no defensiveness, and no stonewalling.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

And the antidote to contempt as well, maybe that's the other ten-second takeaway. Yeah, what well, just that bit about let's spend some time noticing something about our partner, something that we like, the positive stuff, and that again we talk about that a lot, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:06

There's a lot of stuff in the therapy room naturally that is focusing in on the negative problematic parts of our lives, but in the same within in individual counselling, let's also move towards our values and the things we find important because that's what we want to do. So we don't have to just focus on the bad. Putting our hand on the scales of the good is the way of moving forward. So do that with a relationship. So I think you have uh something to add there or not?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

No.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:37

Oh, it's just your look there. I thought you were gonna go, no, not that, that's all wrong. Don't don't don't listen. Don't listen to that last bit. I didn't it was a look that came across your face to go, uh maybe it's just because we've just done a It was anticipatory of what the end of the podcast. Okay, well there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

There does at some point.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:00

That was a wrap up now little look.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

I thought you were wrapping it up.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:06

Yeah, I am wrapping it up. This is up to wrapping it up. Alright, then thank you for listening. Um we'll be back again soon. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Goodbye.