Myths about counselling (and couples counselling) that may be holding you back from getting help.

In this episode we discuss the misconceptions people have that could be holding them back from exploring counselling for themselves or their relationship.

The section on couples counselling begins at 35.36.

Thanks for listening! If you'd like to learn more about our counselling practice, you can find us at:

www.forrescounselling.com

If you'd like to contact us with any questions, thoughts or if you are looking for counselling, you can contact us on:

info@forrescounselling.com.

And if you like the podcast, please follow, rate and review. It really helps us reach new people.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome to Couple Counselling. I'm Anna Webster.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

And I'm Neil Webster. We are a couple of MBA CP counsellors, and yes, we are also a couple.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

This is a podcast aimed at anyone who has considered counselling, is considering counselling, or has never considered counselling, but has a passing interest in how a married couple of counsellors speak to each other when they're not at work.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Each episode we'll be giving you tips on how to use counselling techniques for yourself, how to get on better with your partner, and just generally how to make life a little bit easier. All wrapped up in some light bickering from a couple who've been together for over 30 years. Hello. Hello. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

I'm alright, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Uh I'm alright, been a while.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, it has been a while, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Well, it hasn't been a while. Like what? I literally I live with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

It's been a while. How have you been? It's been a while since we've done done this.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Exactly. Yes. It hasn't been a while since I've seen you.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

No, I couldn't see I couldn't see you more if I tried.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

I said that yeah, that's like a good thing though.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

You didn't sound like I couldn't see you more if I tried.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Thank you, Neil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

You're welcome. Yeah. Um, so yes, we've had we've been away a little while because of work. A little bit of unwellness. Yes. In the mix.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Oh, it's summer, isn't it? Summer's a bit nuts. Yeah. Lots of stuff going on. But here we are. Here we are. Our long-awaited return.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Next to our microphones.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Next to one. Yes, well done. Ready to go. Explaining how the recording process works. That's always good.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, you were just explaining how summer works. I think people are also aware of how summer works. In fact, they may need more explanation on microphones than summer, I would contend.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

It's gonna be one of those episodes, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Should we should we conflict resolution?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Conflict resolution. Um so what's happening? What should should we do a menu? Should we just start? Let's talk.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

About yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

It's like I've lost the ability to talk to explain anything.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

What do we think is important to share today, Neil?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Right. Well, we've got a little menu. I'm gonna do the menu. It's like this morning we are the Richard and Judy of Couple Counseling. Oh that's that comes yeah, that comes with some loaded stuff. Anyway, uh on today's on today's podcast. Yeah. On whenever you're listening to it, this today.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Can I be Kat Dealy instead?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Richard Maidley and Cat Dealy.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Well, no, maybe not Richard Maidley.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

That makes me else.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Okay, let's depart from that analogy.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Let's not stick to the this morning analogy.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Go on, do your menu.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

We've got two things we're going to discuss today.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yes, we have.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Um, we're going to do we thought it could be helpful to go kind of back to basics and say, what is counselling? And what is it not? And I think there's like there's two sides. Obviously, we do individual and couple counselling, and there are there's lots in common. There are some things that are different about those things. But I think dispelling the myths, a lot of people are a bit scared about going to counselling, and quite justifiably so, because in essence it's turning up and talking about things that are some kind of core fears or psychological distress that is quite hard to talk about and with a stranger. Yeah. Which obviously we'll talk about, that's one of the powers of it. But picking up the phone or emailing somebody and saying, I'd like to see about counselling, it's a brave step. So the fear before that and the worries about what it might actually be, we thought we could help to dispel that a little bit. Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, I think you're right, that that's that kind of myth busting thing is a is a really good idea because counselling has got some things that get associated with it which are actually not part of counselling at all. I think it's particularly important in couples counselling.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Um, I think I I tend to find that there are more misconceptions around that than there are around individual counselling.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. But um And often with one partner more than the other. But this is all the stuff we'll come on to. We'll come on to we've gone from menu into content. This is why we would never be very good at they'd be kind of countless down to the ads on this morning at this point.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah, let's give up that. Let's not challenge for those.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

And then and then after the cooking segment, what are we going to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Um, well, I would like to talk about procrastination.

unknown 5:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Um, it it in the interests of bringing the listeners stuff that we hear in our therapy rooms, I would like to bring that because I've had a fair few clients recently talking about procrastination. Um, and I thought it'd be interesting to do a little bit of a deeper dive into what procrastination is, what's going on with people's neurobiology when they procrastinate.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

What are some of again the misconceptions around it?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Um probably because it's me, I'll be trying to find something counterintuitive about it because I love the counterintuitive as I think we've established by now. Um, yeah, so I would like to procrastinate.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Okay, let's do some procrastination or procrastination explanation. Yes. For the procrastination exploration for the nation. Okay. Yeah. Well done. Thanks. Um that that'll be uh once we get into merchandising, that will be on the t-shirt and the baseball cap.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Noted. I was about to say that I didn't procrastinate about choosing the topic for this podcast, in fact, but that's too long for a t-shirt. Yeah.

unknown 6:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Um, so before that, uh any other business, um, what else? What's been going on? Well, we've had lots of emails. Uh before the emails, yeah. Obviously, it's been a big gap. Not that big, it's been a fair size gap since the last uh podcast. And we have had a row.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

We have had a row.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

We had a row.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Had a proper row.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

We had a proper row. And we did flooding techniques.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

And it wasn't easy. No, it wasn't. Because at the point that we did it, we're both in attack mode.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

So it was a really like, no, not now, let's step no, let's and it was get but and in them and I was thinking about it in that kind of dual-headed thing, whilst being lost in the moment, I was also thinking, as we stepped away for half an hour, yeah. Oh, it's hard this.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

But it does work.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, I was thinking that too.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Were you?

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Yeah. And it's that whole thing of not ruminating on the on the argument, see earlier episode for full explanation. But, you know, the adrenaline's going.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

And step away, step away. Let's come back in a bit. Very difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Very difficult. I was thinking that too. And actually, as I was shouting at you, I was thinking, also while shouting at you, thinking, yeah, this is my fight or flight response.

unknown 7:47

God.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Didn't help. Couldn't stop it. We did. In that moment. I mean in that moment of shouting. But um, yeah, it helped afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah. So yeah, it does work, but it's not easy. The evidence for our brains is it's possible to step away. Yeah. And step back.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

And it does work.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah, and it and it did in that situation. And it did. Yes, so thank you for emails.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

It's always really great to hear from people. I really like hearing.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, it's lovely hear hearing from people, and we have took us a little while, but we have responded to everybody, and we will always respond to everybody. If you get in touch, we will respond.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

We always respond to everybody. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I will I'm you know, I love all that stuff. Yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

That's on your admin list then.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

That's on my admin list. I always respond.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Oh, and I've got an email.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Okay. So it says it's uh I'm not gonna read the the name of the emailer because it's Oh, but if you do, that's a good point because people do get in touch and ask questions.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Please say, if you don't say, well, assume you don't want your name without, but if you did, uh feel free to say you can use my name. Yeah, you know, that's just for you.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

If we don't know, we're gonna work on the assumption of confidentiality. So we're not gonna read uh this particular uh podcast listener's name. Um, but she's written, Dear Anna and Neil, I listened to your podcast episode about anxiety and wish to share a method I use to deal with it. Um we had that's what we'd asked was you know on the podcast. Is anyone, you know, any any tips, any tricks, any anything that does or doesn't work. So um she's responded to that. She said it's based on a quote from I Can't Believe It's Not Buddha. And as far as I know, it is a Neil Webster original.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

I'd never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Well, I suppose we should take a moment there to explain what I can't believe it's not Buddha is.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah, I did I I did a a podcast before about a layman's attempt with his friend to get into Buddhism. Uh, it's still up there, and it was it was great fun. And actually, not for now, another whole other episode, but it was that kind of journey that led me into this ultimately, because I found a lot of crossover in the way uh to approach life and then how that worked with counselling. Not to say that any of that is in the counselling room with me, I'm not preaching Buddhism uh per se, but there was for me it resonated. But yes, so I did that podcast.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

You did do that podcast. This is not your first rodeo.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

This is my second rodeo. No, it's my third rodeo, but let's not get into that.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Let's not get into that. Um okay, so uh so says uh this listener, this supposed Neil Webster original, which I should add is not a Neil Webster original.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

No, I was going to I was gonna she doesn't know that. Well, she asks.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah, she asks. Uh goes something like this no matter what you think it's going to be, it's going to be different from that.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

This little mantra helps me massively when I'm anxious about going somewhere. I wonder if Neil remembers saying it or still uses it. What do you think about this mantra as counsellors?

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yes. So I do you remember saying it? I do remember saying it, and I remember saying it because I say it all the time now, and it's something that I use all the time in the counselling room. And with myself, whenever I get a kind of little bout of anxiety or worry about something that's coming up, I find it comforting to go, well, whatever I'm whatever disaster scenario I am anticipating, the chances are it's almost certainly like almost a hundred percent certainly not going to be that. So I am worrying about a scenario that I have fashioned and given kind of arms and legs and an outcome that isn't gonna happen. So why put my energy into that? That's not to say the outcome is definitely going to be better than that, or it could be worse. Chances are actually it'll be better because we've got a negative bias in our head. So on the balance of probability, the vast likelihood is it won't be as bad as the thing that you are catastrophizing over or anticipating. So whatever you think it's gonna be, it isn't gonna be that. So why put all the effort into worrying about that scenario that won't happen? So, yes, that's that was a long answer, but that's what I say in the counselling room a lot, because a lot of people have anxiety and it's their brain doing the best it can for them, as we've discussed in the previous episode. But that for me is a really good kind of handrail to go, it's okay, take a second, the thing you're worrying about. I I hesitate to say certainly because there's no certainties in the world, but it's as close as certain to not happening exactly as you picture it.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, but what we mean is that all of the nuances and implications of that interaction are not going to be exactly as you pictured them. So your emotional response, their emotional response the script, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

The full script, yes, and I guess you're absolutely right, and I guess the reason that I shy away from it's definitely not going to be that is because also it's for me it's important to um embrace the uncertainty of everything, and within that there's a chance that a thing could happen. So that's I guess where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

I'm with you. I'm with you. In fact, so much do we like this uh thought that we actually have it on a poster.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Well that was the weird thing, because yeah uh yeah, so I did you came to that in the Buddha podcast and forgot about it, and lovely that someone's mentioned it. And then we have got we've got a little post outside our counselling room which says whatever you think it is, it isn't. Isn't which proves I didn't come up with it.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I don't know where it came from, but No, I don't know. It doesn't really matter, does it?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

But it's it's key to say it wasn't me.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

It might be nice to um this listener makes a nice point um in the second half of her email. She says there is a popular technique for dealing with anxiety that demands you imagine one worst case scenario, two best case scenario, three, what will probably happen. I always wondered how that could possibly help someone as it just exacerbates the overthinking related to anxiety. If you like me, if you're like me, sorry, I recommend no matter what you think it's gonna be, it's gonna be different from that, as it shines in simplicity and truth.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

And beautifully put.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Really nicely put. Um I I think that technique that she's referring to is a CBT technique. Right, yeah. Um and you it's a form of thought challenge. So you are uh sort of exploring the parameters.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah. Which there's a space for. We're not massive fans of that, if we're honest.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Not our particular thought challenge is not my my favourite thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

No, because it's getting into a fight with the thoughts. But at the moment you're challenging a thought, you're getting into opposition and you're starting a battle, and a brain is very good at coming back with another thought because it just thinks I have to try harder.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I think it's the what will probably happen that I have difficulty with. Yes. And I think particularly, not I mean, for all clients, I think that that's difficult territory to get into, but particularly if you've got a client, say, with ADHD, or a client who has a particularly busy brain, that idea of encouraging somebody to try and sort of find out what will probably happen. I'm not sure how useful that is. So uh to this emailer, I absolutely agree with you. Yeah, we can't do that. Yes, I completely agree with you. Yes, I do find it um useful in the therapy room, and I'm glad you find it useful too.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Hard agree. Hard agree and that thing, that that CBT technique, you know, maybe there are some CBT full of therapists who are going to shout at. Yeah, no, there was there may be some CBT therapists who go, No, I use that and it works really well.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

And yeah, and I know absolutely, absolutely. And um not knocking CBT at all. There are there are lots of CBT things which I I do find really useful in the room. I guess what I'm saying is that that particular concept, that particular sort of thought challenge technique doesn't work for me, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah. And we like we like Act. We've talked about ANCT before. We will probably talk about ANCT again in a minute.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Which is you know, that is a form is Yeah, I mean that's usually described as a third wave, third wave CBT. So it's sort of born out of CBT. So not rubbishing CBT at all. It's just that idea of replacing thoughts with other thoughts is I I don't find personally particularly useful.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yep. So thank you for getting in touch and thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

That was great.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So before we get on to procrastination, I have to always take a little bit of a run-up to that word. I don't know if you noticed. I'll take the I'll take the the gaps out when I edit this. Before we start on procrastination. Um we thought a little bit of what counselling is not. So this is a little section to go, you're thinking of counselling, you might be worried about counselling, which is absolutely justified because it's scary and it's an unknown. And a lot of a lot of what we do, a lot of behaviour that we and thoughts and feelings are about avoiding stuff because there's something uncomfortable to avoid. So to go into a room which by its nature is exploring the uncomfortable stuff, is itself uncomfortable and scary. So considering therapy is a big move. Making the call, putting sending the email, getting in touch is an even bigger move. And then getting in the room, it's like really brave. And some of those things that are stopping you getting to the room are maybe some fears about what it might be. And so we thought we could maybe just uh outline what it isn't as well as what it is to kind of help soothe some of those fears.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Stuff that people are scared about.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yes. And so we'll do a little bit about individual counselling.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

But also couple counselling. So it's got there's a slightly different nuance to that. So to start with the basics, what is therapy not? It is not advice.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

No, it's not advice.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Counsellors are not here to tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

No.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

So, although it's understandable that people are turning up to counselling and going, I'm feeling this, tell me what to do. And because you want help, that's why you've come in the first place. But our guess is you've spent a significant period of your life or when you've had problems, getting advice from friends and family, and yet here you are. And being told what to do is actually taking away your agency for exploring it yourself and finding your way through it. So we are not here to tell you what to do, counsellors are not here to tell you what to do. What they are here to do is provide a new perspective with you on what's going on for you. So our experience is ah yes, we have some understanding of how your brain is operating to put you into this place, we we don't have a solution for this content. What we have is a perspective to say, ah, maybe there's a way of reframing this, maybe there's a different way of you approaching this that brings you a sustained relief rather than often a kind of attempt at a short-term fix.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Absolutely. Yeah. So if you conceptualise the client as being lost in a maze, for example, what we're not doing is saying, right, go straight ahead, second left, third right, and then you're out.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

That's not how that works.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

There isn't a plot for that. No. Crucially, everybody is different, and the idea if someone's got a magic bean fix-all solution, then I'd say we'd like to hear it, but we wouldn't, because if it did exist, we would be out of work. But and also the world would be amazing because everyone would be happy.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

But I think the really sort of base level point here is that people tend to feel at their most psychologically well when they feel like they are in the driving seat of their own lives. And conversely, people tend to feel the most psychologically distressed when they feel that things are being done to them and happening to them, and that they have no what we would call agency. That's a very, very psychotherapy word. Don't we ring a bell when that happens?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

It's agency. I'm starting to lose track of what's a psychotherapy word.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I mean, it's you know, it is a it is a word in other usage, but it's it's very commonly used by therapists. So but what we mean is being in the driving seat of your life, feeling like you are living your life in the way that you want to and that you are able to make changes uh to the way you relate to your life if you want to. And the thing about coming to see a counselor psychotherapist who says to you, you know, go straight ahead, then do the second left, then do the third right, is there is no agency for you in that. So, yes, you may possibly come out of the maze. But if you find yourself in another maze, uh where does that leave you in terms of in terms of your agency?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And so that is what a counselor is going to work on with you, right? Is your Your ability to get back in the driving seat of your life.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

We're not going to say just do this.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Just do this.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Although we may say, Hey, what about trying this technique? And if it works for you, let's carry on with it. And if it doesn't, we try another technique. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

But that's a technique that allows you to relate better to your cognitive and emotional field, to your thoughts and feelings, as opposed to what you need to do is stop this or start this or block this or replace this with something else.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yes. Good. That's the first thing. Uh we're not here to judge.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

In any way. All behaviour is explainable. We're all doing the best with the tools we've got. And often you've come from a situation or in your life there is judgment. There's naturally this judgment. We all judge, it's a natural part of interaction. But in this space, we're exploring what's going on for you. So there is no judgment. So often a fear of going to counselling could be, oh, this is embarrassing. What will they think of me? I couldn't say this to someone because they'll think I'm this or I'm not good enough or insert kind of some level of low self-esteem, right? And so it's understandable, again, it's really understandable that there's maybe some shame attached that's been I'm going off into kind of interjected values.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, often often high levels of shame. Um clients will frequently preface things with um this sounds really stupid, but or I'm ashamed to tell you this, but or they might just flag that there's something they want to tell you, but they're frightened to tell you because they think it's gonna make you not want to work with them.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Um And that doesn't happen. No, and that's not what goes on in the room. And so it's like I say, it's natural to be have some fear of that before you go to counselling, but be reassured, nothing sounds stupid, and it's all a valid response and it's all a valid expression of where you're at.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Because when you get down to it, actually all responses are explainable. People don't do things or don't feel things or don't think things for no reason. It may be that the reason isn't apparent to other people, that's possible. But actually, when you really start kind of getting under the surface, which is what happens in counselling, uh you know, people's responses are explainable, and that's profoundly relieving, freeing, validating for people to know that you know, there's a good reason, there's a good reason you feel like this.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Um and also there's something again, it's another psychotherapy word, reparative, about having the experience of being with another human being who has heard the thing that you've been feeling that you had to kind of hide, shield, hold on to, having somebody else hear that and accept you with that is is profoundly healing in as of itself.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yes. Which goes back to the advice as well, right? Often uh a well-meaning friend or relative will jump in and try and fix the problem when actually what you need at that moment is someone to hear the problem.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

That's so right. And and I have this conversation with clients, you know, time and time again, because a lot of them have had that experience. And and the thing is, I mean, we get psychologists call it the writing reflex. So we have a uh as human beings, the sort of desire to put things right, to kind of get things fixed. Um and that tends to be what the close friends, uh relatives, spouses, you know, uh of the client will do is is jump in and say, Oh, what you need to do is X, Y, and Z. Um and that often actually feels uh quite minimizing and diminishing for the client because actually what they want is somebody to hear their distress as opposed to jump in and try and fix it. Yeah, so it's not that people are being unkind, it's not that people are trying to do the wrong thing. It's completely natural to want to help people that you love and are close to.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

But in therapy, that isn't what happens. I mean, hopefully the therapy will help overall, but what your therapist isn't gonna do is jump in and say, right, I know what the fix for that is, just do this.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

So, which brings me on to the next thing that counselling isn't. A lot of people say counselling isn't a quick fix. I prefer to say your eyes were in the case.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

No, no, it isn't going with my interested eyes.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Oh, they're your interested eyes. Oh, you're Mrs.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Potato Heads.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Mrs. Potato Heads put her interesting.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

What which eyes did you think I'd put in?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

I thought you I thought they were Mrs. Potato Head's Mrs. Potato Head's sceptical eyes, but they're her interested eyes.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

They're interested.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So I don't say counselling isn't a quick fix. I say counselling isn't necessarily a quick fix. Because we don't know the speed at which no and you're right. I think generally people come in and again naturally go, This is bothering me, this is upsetting me, this is causing me distress. What can I do now to stop it? Because of course it's a natural reflex that goes, make this thing stop. Yeah. So lots of people come to counseling thinking, I want a quick fix, and then we start working with the notion of what that quick fix is. Is it actually dealing with the problem? Is it pushing it away? Is it kind of briefly getting some short relief in whichever way you get short relief, then it comes back twice as bad. All of those versions of what a quick fix is. Like you know, the phrase a fix is unsurprisingly uh used in drug taking. Yeah. Because that's what a fix is, right? It's not a fix, it's a brief respite that doesn't deal with the underlying issue. You know, people come in and they want relief quickly because of course they do. No one comes in going, I've got this problem, can we deal with it as slowly as possible? People want relief fairly, right? That was But it's true, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:41

So you're right. I've never had a client who said, Can we deal with it as slowly as possible?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Um there is an irony to that that when we have often kind of worked through a uh a problem, people then have a kind of issue with ending counselling. But that's a completely different thing. That's another podcast as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

But yeah, you're right, people often come into counselling, and when you're really in the weeds of something, they're in that space of well, you know, when is this gonna go away? When I'm gonna feel better, yeah. And then when they do feel better and we start to talk about the end of counselling, then that's quite scary, and then they don't want the cancelling. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Natural because anyway, that's uh but the other part of the quick fix that I wanted to mention is it's not necessarily a quick fix and we don't go into it going we can offer some magic bean solution. But equally, sometimes when the work starts, and to go back to CBT, if there's an issue with a behavioural issue that's linked to an a thought or an emotion, sometimes when we turn the corner, it can then happen incredibly quickly.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Oh, absolutely. No, I'm not saying that um people don't think better quickly. No, it's but that's a part of it. I would never I would never promise the client or even give them a sort of I think this is well, I think we're looking at a four-session problem.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I think but people but people ask that, right? They go how many sessions it's gonna take. And and it's understandable again because you want to have some kind of sense of what and it's hard because we don't know. But equally, I'd just kind of paying some lip service to the notion that it's not a quick fix, but it's not necessarily forever or slow. We don't know. And actually, when we start working on something with a client, often the change in them when it starts to happen can sometimes be incredibly quick, and it's it's amazing to be part of that process to see someone get a new perspective and suddenly have a new awareness and can see their way to live through that and see this new possibility of existence, this new way of living, and then it kind of takes hold and it's it can be quick. That that process can when it takes, can happen quickly. It can you just like I was I definitely was going on a bit then because you just looked at your watch.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

I was just thinking, I'm like this explanation, it can't be quick, unlike this explanation.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Amazing. Moving on. So my last thing, I've realise I've done all the what counselling is not, but you're happy with that.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I'm more than happy, more than happy with that, Neil. You're doing a marvellous job.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Thank you very much. I'm taking that sincerely.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

I know it was meant sincerely.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

The last thing to kind of say is it's not just a chat, which I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

No. And and that's in that's important. And I think sometimes when people are worried about ending therapy, they are hoping that they can come back and see you every week because that feels like a safe space and somewhere that they will be heard and accepted. But what counselling isn't is a coffee morning.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yes. And again, that's natural. Like it's a it's a unique relationship in the counselling room because we're there to be a different a different voice to friends and relatives and to be have some objectivity and not be part of the soup of their lives. But equally, there's a kind of therapeutic bond that then develops. And at the end of that, that can be it's not friendship.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

But no, it's a very unusual relationship because it's close, yes, but it's designed to end. And that's very uh well, there aren't really any other relationships in life that are like that. But our ethical responsibility as professional counsellors and psychotherapists is to make sure that psychological work is being done.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

So that's the key. Yeah. So we are not, you know, having a chat about the weather and the football result. Well, it would be impossible for me to chat about the football results. Absolutely no idea what they are, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah. So that was that's so that part of it is work is being done.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Psychological work is being done.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Psychological work is that's key. Yes. What and you always sum it up nicely with what is the psychological distress that we are dealing with? And if the answer is none, there isn't one, then the work is over.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and people will often come in and you'll say, you know, what's card this week? And they'll kind of say, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Well they'll tell you about something that previously would have been very difficult for them to manage. Yeah. Uh and that they actually managed to s sort it out three weeks ago and they completely forgot to tell you about it, which is another sign that that they're ready for an ending. Yes. Um yeah. Psychological work needs to be being done.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

So that's what it's not. There's lots of stuff that it is, but that is the work of counselling. I'd say the one thing to say is that it definitely is, is confidential, which is the cornerstone of all of the work and is the first thing really a counsellor should ever mention to you when you start work with them.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah. You should that your counsellor should discuss confidentiality with you and whether there are exceptions to that confidentiality and what those would look like.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yes, which is to do with safety. Yeah. But without going into all of that now, it's a confidential space. Yeah. There's nothing that you have to tell your counsellor, but there's nothing you can't tell your counsellor.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

No, exactly that. Um You know, I always say to my clients, if you and I were to bump into each other in the street, I would ignore you, not because I don't care about you, not because I'm not thinking about you, but because it means that you don't have to explain to other people who I am.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

But that I that's fine, but why do you do that to me as well? Feels like there's something else going on.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yeah, well, yeah, when I hid behind those those beans and Tesco, that was something I was like.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

I just go so she's just respecting my privacy.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah, just respecting its confidentiality. Yeah, exactly. Um, I think uh maybe then there's the kind of couples canceled.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yes, so it's important to say that everything we've discussed with a couple of kind of tweaks around the edge, maybe uh is exactly the same. Yeah. But what it is not is very particularly when we talk about judgment in uh individual counselling, it's that's kind of more relevant, I think, in couples counselling.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Yeah. I I think that often um one or both parties imagine that you are going to be a referee.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

So what you're going to do is you're going to listen to them outline their difficulties, and then you're going to say, Joe, blogs, you're absolutely right about that. But uh Josephine blogs, you're absolutely right about that.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

So you're going to somehow be keeping score.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Saying that, you know, that that position's valid, that one's not.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

You're right about this, you're wrong about this.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

You're wrong about this.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

That is not what happens.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

We are not there to referee.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

We're not there to referee, and and as we've discussed a bit before, we're interested in the process rather than the content, which actually which actually takes away any of that sense of who's right and who's wrong, because everyone's doing the best with the tools they've got. And what we're doing is slowing that down and finding out what emotionally is going on for both parties and what is triggering both parties and how we can communicate better in a way that both don't feel escalated and triggered by what the other what they're hearing from the other side.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah. I think we've probably said this before, but it's it's worth saying it again that in couples counselling the relationship is your client.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Um, and I always say that to my couples. So that you know, I think that helps to move it away from I'm gonna be kind of giving you, you know, you get 10 points and you only get eight. So therefore the winner of this week's match is so no, the the relationship, yeah, your relationship is my client.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Because often they come into a room and they're having an argument and they want someone to settle it.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

And the idea that both of them go in with a kind of once somebody else hears this, they'll go, yes, you're right. Yeah, he or she is wrong.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Also, what you get in couples counselling, which I suppose is different, is that you will commonly get one partner who has sort of brought up the idea of couples counselling and is therefore more proactive in seeking out a counseling.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

More engaged.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, in making the appointments, in responding to messages about appointments. So the couples come in usually with one half of the couple feeling like they are slightly on the back foot because it's the other person who has sort of set this one up.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Um so a lot of the work I find right at the beginning is about leveling that playing field, yeah, making it clear that this is a is a relationship between three of us and your relationship is my client.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Um and I underline that by if my couples use WhatsApp, for example, I will set up a WhatsApp group with the three of us in it so that I am uh liaising with both of them about the planning of sessions so that everybody can see all the messages. Because even if you get into that thing of I'm only messaging back and forth with one half of the couple, that can feel quite unequally weighted. So I try to make that uh playing field feel level right from the get-go.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's I suppose that feeds back into the idea of confidentiality where in individual counselling the confidentiality is key. In relationship counselling, in everything is still confidential, but it's confidential amongst all parties.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Yes, you're right. So but a bit of transparency actually is needed.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yes, so so uh not everybody does this, but in the way that we uh offer couples counselling, the way it would generally run is you would have a session with the couple first off, like an introductory hour session to find out what's going on for them and get a kind of greater sense of what's happening. And then it's often useful to have two solo sessions that follow that.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

So next week we can actually do one or two sessions and then and then do an individual session each each, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

So it gives them a bit more space. You learn a bit more about kind of background as well, which all helps to feed into what's you know, what the emotional triggers are. Um, you get a perspective that a bit of space for them to kind of unpack what's going on for them without fear of it being a trigger in the room. Uh uh, and then it helps because obviously we're we're often coming up to speed on it, can be a 30-year relationship, and and in an hour we're trying to kind of find our feet and find out where we can kind of help slow down and facilitate.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah, you're doing all sorts of things in that session, it's a deeper history-taking dive for you as a therapist. Yeah, um, you're also getting to look at your client's attachment background because that's really important in in couples counselling. So you're looking at you know what's gone on for you before in terms of the other attachments that have happened to you in your life, previous relationships, but back to your attachments to your family when you were younger. What's been your experience of attachment to another human being? Yeah because we're all bringing that stuff with us into our current relationships. So that's that's all of the the work that you can get a bit of a deeper dive into in an individual session.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Yeah. And so back to confidentiality, yeah. What's key is in those individual sessions, as much as they are individual sessions, everything that's discussed there can be discussed, can be brought into the group because there are no secrets.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

No, everything's between three of us.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

If there are if there's secrets, then we're into all kinds of murky territory and we're into a thing where there's withheld information and then one partner can feel ganged up on and all of those things. So it's made clear that you go, Yep. We are discussing stuff today, but all of the stuff we discuss could be discussed or will be discussed in in the main sessions with the with both parties.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Transparency is is key, but just between the three of you.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Yes. So that confidentiality, the the circle of trust.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

So coming back to what counselling is not, then what it's not is in in couples counselling is refereeing.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Refereeing, taking sides, apportioning blame.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Blame no.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Like you say, there's often one half of the couple is a bit more on the front foot, a bit more and that's not always the case. I I've often, you know, couples come in and they both come in and say, We've got a problem, and we're at the end of our tether with trying to sort it out ourselves. And so they both come.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

And I've got couples that are Yeah, I mean it it it dep I guess it depends at what state or what part of relationship breakdown you meet your couple. Because if they if they come to you at a time of crisis, so if things have broken down really badly, yeah, it may be that they are either not or barely communicating with each other at that point. Yeah. Or, you know, your couple may come to you saying, you know, we've decided between us that we could use some help. They may still be in a a place of sort of togetherness and viewing this as a problem that they want to tackle together. So it I guess it depends whereabouts you meet them.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Yes, absolutely. So I uh I guess what could be useful is if you are considering counselling and you've talked to your partner about it and they as with individual counselling, people are reticent, scared, uh, wonder what it's gonna be. Maybe I'll put in the in the show description the kind of time code where uh we start. Talk about couples counselling, and you can kind of go, Well, you could listen to this to go, this is what it isn't. Oh, to a lay some being.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Yes, absolutely. And it's also worth saying that you know it's not hard, and indeed, this is the model of counselling that we offer to find a counsellor who will only be looking for commitment from you on a session-by-session basis. So you're not sort of signing up to six months of counselling.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a big part of that, is finding your feet with it. And often I'll do sessions where we'll do with let's do an exploratory session. And after that, invariably people tend to go, oh, it isn't what I was worried it's going to be. Yeah, let's carry on. And again, to go back to that quick fix idea of um that we talked about in individual counselling, with couples counselling, there's the sense that there was a really good quote we were talking about the other day where I was saying about you know, if you're if you're buying shares in something like that. Oh, it was but yeah, it was good on that. Don't sell the the advice. Don't sell low, right? And so when your relationship is at a low low point, don't sell low there without giving it some time. Explore what's going on because your your low ebb. People don't sell low. That's the you know, we said this isn't a financial podcast. I think that's quite apparent. I think that's clear. Um, but that notion is I thought was really helpful. Yeah. You know, we're at a low ebb. This isn't the time to just walk away. We've we've put a lot of time. There's been something that's been working for us in the past. Let's explore why we're here and whether we can not be at this stage anymore.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

And actually that's the point, isn't it? That if you have got two people in a room with you or online with you, then there is a will, even if it's faint and hard to get hold of and waxing and waning, there is a will to explore the viability of that relationship because if they were absolutely positive that it was over, then it would be over and the three of you would never meet. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Indeed. So, yeah, so I'll put a a time code in the show outline for the couples thing. But equally for reluctant partners. For reluctant partners, but if your partner is reluctant to listen to this podcast, which let's be honest, that we can't that we can't help with. And they could be right, who knows? But the what's the takeaway? The the takeaway for couples counselling is it's not a place where there's going to be refereeing, there's not going to be blame, there's not going to be taking sides. It's a place where we are looking at the process of communication and de-escalating and creating an environment where we can discuss calmly and emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

And I see, I've got my counterintuitive thing. I'm just going to slip it in at the end because I always like to, as you know. The thing I I always say to couples, which does always make people do a double take, is actually there are many ways, despite the fact that when people come to Couples Counseling, they feel that they're at loggerheads, you know, I want A and he wants B, and I say black and he says white, and you know. Actually, uh although their their desires f feel very different, they are actually in many ways working for the same thing. They're just doing it in very different ways.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

And it's focusing in on can you see what what the same thing is?

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Can you see the similarities? Can you see the links? And that's a lot of the work of couples counselling. And it's kind of counterintuitive because people come in imagining that it's all about the differences, it's all about the uh disjunct, it's all about the the conflict. Yeah. But actually what we're gonna do is focus in on a lot of the uh the links.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yes, and those links, there's the links in as you say, the kind of different methods of aiming at the same thing. And there's also which we will do an episode on, there's also there's there's the working on the problems, but actually working towards the values, working towards the good stuff and reigniting the good stuff and re-focusing on them and re-engaging. So there's a whole positive side where you go, what are the things we can do? What are the rituals we can build? What are the routines we can build to bring us back to positive feelings towards each other?

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Yeah, because they started they started off liking each other, right? Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, that gets lost.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

They started off liking each other and they ended up hiding from them in Tesco's behind the beans, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

I won't do that anymore. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Um, so that is so yeah, that's the brief, that's the takeaway uh at the end there. Um, so obviously now, uh part two, procrastination. We've as ever, we've gone on too long. Far too long. We always think, oh well, crack through that. This was I started this going a little bit on this first.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

This was the also run idea.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

This was the also run idea.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Procrastination was the main event.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Yeah, so procrastination, we'll have to do that another time.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Ah, but that's not procrastination. No, that isn't. That was a joke. Yeah, or was it? Yeah, procrastination basically.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

That was my I've got I've got a good seven seconds on procrastination. Have you? I've just done it. Um, so procrastination uh run up. So procrastination will be the next episode, I guess. Unless something else comes up in the meantime. But uh that'll be it. So that's that's us for today.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah, that's there's there's a lot in there.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I think so. I think that and uh hopefully that's helpful because it is that thing of what is counselling, and that's not it's invariably the first thing you discuss with people who who get in touch, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Absolutely, yeah, it absolutely is. And um uh as always, do please get in touch with the podcast. Ask us questions, tell us what you'd like to hear more about. Um give us ideas for other posters to put in our council.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Yeah, yeah, brilliant, yeah, brilliant. Um all right, well, we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

See you next time.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Bye bye.