Bob Verlaat's Guide to Building a Brand

Most e-commerce brands are boring. They copy each other, lead with product specs, and wonder why nothing sticks. Bob Verlaat, co-founder of Hears and Dore & Rose (OOAK Brands), has spent two years doing the opposite, building brands that people talk about without being paid to.

Everything from this episode, structured into a free playbook:
https://www.elevatorgoods.com/talks/bob-verlaat

In this episode:
- How to define your brand's reason for existence and use it as a filter for every event, partnership, and content decision you make
- Why Bob argues that 5K on an offline event returns faster than 5K on a Meta awareness campaign, and the logic behind it
- Why most brands are boring, and the specific mistake Bob says operators make when they try to stand out
- The one signal Bob looks for to know his brand is working, and why it has nothing to do with followers, ROAS, or engagement

Follow Elevator:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elevatorgoods
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Website: https://www.elevatorgoods.com

Follow Monish Sabnani (Host):
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/msabnani93/
X: https://x.com/msabnani93

Follow Bob Verlaat:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bobverlaat
X: https://x.com/bobverlaat

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
02:00 What brand actually means, and what it is not
06:00 Product first or vision first: how Bob thinks about launching
10:00 Why a worryless life became Hears' north star
14:00 Events vs. Meta ads: which one returns more
20:00 How to know when your brand is working
26:00 Most brands are boring. Here is why.
30:00 LTV, post-purchase surveys, and the retention play most operators ignore
34:00 Rebrands: when they are worth it, when they are not
38:00 Rapid fire: Pinterest, new project, micromanaging, and freedom

Mentioned in this episode:
- Hears - https://hears.com/
- Dore & Rose - https://doreandrose.com/
- OOAK Brands - https://ooakbrands.com/

#ecommerce #dtc #brandbuilding #dtcmarketing #elevatortalks #operatormindset #ecommercebrand

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Brand is not about selling a product, it's about selling your reason for existence. Most brands are boring.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

You're pretty synonymous with the person being the one who's kind of cracked what brand means in modern DSC.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I bet you if you were to put 5k in an awareness campaign on meta ads or that you put 5k on a cool event that people really like and enjoy and people see, probably is a return on investment. The only difference is it's immeasurable, I would say. But I bet it's worth the money.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

You know, in the age of AI, brand's a big deal. You know, you can spin up an e-commerce brand not too hard, but it's really about what makes you defensible.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

One of the most important qualities that a brand could have is authenticity. Because people get lost in AI. You know this. You you see the AI brands and you see what's real. Of course, we we generate uh a render with AI and we do generate that one-liner. But if you continue to do that for everything your brand is, then it will feel an authentic and you won't win credibility with it to customer.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

All right, Bob, really excited to have you on. It's been a minute since we caught up. I think the last time was uh in New York, if I'm not mistaken, in Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

A couple of years ago already. Last time we saw each other in person.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

The last time I saw you, you were literally still working on here's. You had shown me a pitch deck and you were you were basically showing me the plan with the music festivals, the prototypes, the designs. So I think needless to say, it's gone pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Pretty crazy, huh? How what's uh how it's changed in uh what is it now, two years? Yeah, I think two years since I last spoke to you, spoke to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yeah, probably. Um so what we want to get into today is all things brand. Um, I mean, you are the brand guy, uh, I think, especially in e-commerce and um, you know, our our own network, you're pretty synonymous with the person being the one who's kind of cracked what brand means in modern D to C. So I really want to get into that. And I'll kick off the conversation by saying, you know, in the age of AI, to me, there are not many motes anymore in e-commerce. Um if I had to define the motes right now, I would say there are three. The first is brand, the second is supply chain, supply chain excellence, and then the third is your team, you know, the quality of your team, loyalty, efficiency, and whatnot. Brand's a big deal. Um, I'm sure you could argue that there are other modes, but effectively the the in this day and age, you know, you can spin up an e-commerce brand not too hard, but it's really about what makes you defensible. So just to kick this off, what does brand mean to you? Why are you so passionate about it? And how do you see it?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Well, well, first of all, thank you for having me and thank you for uh for all those kind words. Um very much appreciate it. I and I'm excited. I'm excited to talk about brand today. It's um it's indeed what we've been definitely focused on with uh with the brands other than just selling the product. Um what brand means to me is like I think a lot of new e-commerce uh brands are, you know, like it's it's very easy, like you said yourself, it's very easy to sell product these days. Like you run an ad, you sell a product. I think what what really what brand really means here is how you tell your story. Because what what companies or new new brands are missing is that brand is not about selling a product, it's about selling your reason for existence. Um so what brand really means to me is literally how well you communicate your reason for being. Um and and that comes with uh how people talk about the brand and how well they continue to tell that story. So literally what brands it what brand is to me is how people are talking about your brand when you're not there.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

And what sort of got you on this pathway, right? I know obviously you're involved with Doran Rose, and I know you've got your hands in many different D2C businesses, but have you always been the de facto brand guy in these organizations? Is it something that you've intentionally started working on, or is it something that you were just naturally very passionate or very good at?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, I think I think for me personally, it it it it really came from my my passion for brands in general, not necessarily branding or not necessarily how how to design a logo, what's one. I've just always been very interested in in the bigger brands. I was interested in in, you know, like what uh uh what the designer brands were doing or why someone would buy from uh that serial brand instead of the other just because of the colors it uh it it had or like the logo it had. It always fascinated me. So I think when building my own brands, it kind of came naturally by looking at, you know, all those years, looking at those brands and having a real interest in them. Um I naturally started mimicking what those big brands were doing and applying it to my own brands when I eventually decided to uh start selling some products online.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So let's talk about years. You know, again, I I saw you before it officially started. We spoke about the concept. For me, just speaking from my own experience, I I usually start these businesses product first, framework, size of product, margin, you know, the overall business profile. Is that how you look at it too? Or are you sort of going at it from a vision that you have and building a community around music, for example, and audio?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

I I think it goes hand in hand. Like I don't think you're uh one day deciding, hey, I want to communicate this message to the world and I'm gonna find a product with it. Um, though I think it it should be a thought when um um when launching a new product. Of course, you have to choose a product that is fitting well for the market, fitting well in terms of margins, in terms of um in terms of pricing, and something that you think you can sell well online, especially in this landscape where you know most products are doing well, that they're actually solving a product. Um so it especially with with here's we obviously already understood um what it meant to um sell good sell product online, like um we had certain criteria when it comes to weight, um, when it comes to problem-solving products, uh, when it comes to sizing, you know, like in essence, earplugs are a very good e-commerce product. Um, but then uh the question was really if you want to sell this very good product, um how are you gonna communicate that? How are you gonna stand out from what's already out there? Because we're not the first earplug brand, and there's some very big brands out there. So if you if you can decide on a vision or a a reason for existence or like that message that you want to communicate and make it something exceptional compared to what's already out there, uh, I think that's when you're winning. So good product and good brand, uh both um um yeah, are are both required to be successful, I think, in this landscape.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So, in your own words, walk me through like where you guys are and don't be humble about it. I want you to be super objective and and really sure, like this again, as a follower of yours, um you know, moving in the same circles. I see you, I see what you're doing, and it's amazing. You guys have music festivals, you've got partnerships with St. Laurent, which obviously I want to get into. Um, you know, I see you throwing parties, I see the here's RD concept, which I think is amazing. What is the Here's brand? What are you trying to build?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Go coming back to like first deciding product um and and then also communicating some kind of message and building a brand around that product. Um we centralize here's about uh around one idea, which is uh a worried life. It's very simple, simply said, um, but it's it's the worrylessness that we try to communicate with our brand is stepping away from the technical side or the medical side that the earplugs usually have. Um and that's what we're trying to communicate within every touch point we have with our consumer. Um so when it comes to website packaging, when it comes to, for example, events like that, um, we always try to question ourselves what is fitting to our vision and how how are we gonna creatively um um make it happen to communicate that vision? And you're mentioning, for example, here's RD, throwing parties, yeah, it's it's a fun way to do it, but it's also if you're gonna do events and if you want to create community, better do it this way that's fitting to the brand and uh fitting to that vision instead of another pop-up where you explain everything about the product. Um, and that's also what I'm really trying to do with here's when it comes to communication in socials. I don't want to go too much in depth on the the specifications of the product, I don't want to go too much in like the medical side of things or or um the prevention of hearing protection. Of course, we do this as well because we gotta educate. But the core message that I'm trying to communicate in every touch point that I have with the with uh with a potential consumer is to live a worried life. And that's that's basically um the division of hears and the vision that we're trying to communicate within every aspect of the company.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

I think it's really honestly admirable how you guys build brands because again, there are some really sharp people that could stand up, you know, an earplugs business. That part is not necessarily rocket science with the age of clawed code and manus, and you know, anyone can fly to China and whatnot, but if you go head to head with here's you have a community, you have a following, you've got customers that love you guys, and so that's the moat, right? And I think at the end of the day, right now, most brand operators are lazy and they sort of go for this instant gratification where it's like, okay, if you have a thousand dollars and you put that thousand dollars into meta ads, okay, maybe you'll get two thousand dollars back. In brand, you know, let's say you invest that into here's RD, the parties, the events, there might not be a two thousand dollars immediately that comes back to you, you know, on day one, but it's a long-term moat, right? Like it takes time to build. And I'd love to hear from your perspective, you know, how you had the the perspective to think long term because you know, you're constantly investing, right, into events, into community, into marketing that doesn't have a ROAS, right? How do you build that perspective? And this is obviously for an audience of e-com builders, a lot of them are younger than us who are just getting started, but they're thinking to themselves, hey, let me just take my dollars and immediately invest into to ROAS for an immediate gratification. Hey, I'm Anish, and I just want to quickly give you more context on the world of Elevator. I'm one of the managing partners. Elevator is broken out into several groups. We've got Elevator Goods, our very own in-house brands and agencies that we're currently building every single day. Brands like Fluffco and Jiggies. Elevator Capital is where we invest in other brands, young founders who we believe are on the come up. If you're one of those people and you're looking for either capital or mentorship or strategic connections, please get in touch with us. The studio is our physical space. Our first location is in Hong Kong, and there are many more coming soon. This is a D2C membership club. If you're in Hong Kong anytime soon, please come check us out. Think founders, amazing conversations, and just learnings left, right, and center. Lastly, Elevator Talks, our newest show where we'll be interviewing the biggest and brightest names in e-commerce This is not a show for surface level. This is a show for tactics and systems where we get super, super detailed. So last but not least, thank you so much. Please subscribe because that will help us a ton in getting you better guests and more wisdom and more value. We really appreciate it. And back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I think it's I think it's closer to a return on investment than you think. Um, of course, like uh um especially when it comes to paid media, we we understand that um, you know, one dollar in is uh two, three dollars back um uh if you're running a successful ad. However, you need to still fill your top layer and you still need to bring awareness to your brand um in order to like people say that the the top middle uh top, middle, and bottom famous dead because you know meta is uh is is targeting automatically, there still is um um your awareness stage and there still is um uh you still need to like make your brand known. Um and and I bet you if you were to put 5k in an awareness campaign uh on meta ads or uh you put 5k on a cool event that people really like and enjoy and people see, um, you're gonna get your money back quicker uh um when it comes to, for example, those events or collaborations or doing something that that gets a lot of eyeballs. Um and the question is, are you doing it creatively enough for people to notice? Um as it goes with ads. You can run an ad, um, a simple ad that people will notice. But as you notice in the whole paid media strategy, once you get out of the ordinary, once you're breaking the pattern of what people are already seeing when they're scrolling, uh is when you're gonna make money. And the same goes for uh for offline events, the same goes for collaborations, the same goes for email marketing or in general the messaging that you're putting out there. Um so doing those events is probably in the end more returning than throwing 5k or 10k on an awareness campaign. Uh, and at the same time, you're building brand and you're doing something unique, people start to love your brand, um, and you get noticed quicker. So it's it's uh uh probably is a return on investment. The only difference is it's unmeasurable, I would say. But I bet it's worth the money.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

So this is why I wanted to talk to you because what you just said is not a common belief, I think. You know, if you don't have experience, right? Like you're obviously in you're a a seasoned e-commerce guy at this point. Been doing it for years, multiple brands, those brands have all been successful. You know what you're doing, you've got the courage to invest where it's not necessarily obvious. Love that. I think most brand builders today who are just getting started do not think that way. And so I'm trying to dig into this because I think it's it's a much more viable path, but you just need a bit more courage because you know, especially if you're on the mid-budgets and you need that instant gravitation that's not guaranteed, right? But it's sort of much more tried and tested. But right, you like you said, if you if you kind of do it the right way and you put a dollar into meta, you will get, let's say, at least a dollar eighty out, right? Um, but it's short-term thinking. And so I don't think this is a common belief.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

I agree, and I think it should like, especially for new new e-commerce founders, it also shouldn't be necessarily the way to start off with uh with events whatsoever. It's it's definitely for more mature brands and like uh being well on the way. Um because yes, the fastest growth, especially towards that 500k months, million months, um, is definitely gonna be paid media and a combination of paid media. Um but um if you wanna uh yeah, if you want to expand uh and if you want to generate more revenue after, there's definitely an omnichannel needed because you're not gonna very occasionally you will, but most of the times you're not gonna uh be fully reliant on meta ads. And also, I don't think as a brand you you want to be reliant on meta ads, you do want to have some um offline awareness, uh at least also online in different channels. You want to utilize Amazon, B2B, um wholesale retail, uh influencer marketing, and and simply you wanna you want to nail every strategy of it. Um you want to be good in every aspect of it, and and that includes events or collaborations or influencer marketing, what's on.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

So I guess my question is when you started here, did you have this vision fully fleshed out? Did you kind of see this pathway? Did you know, hey, we're gonna be this audio brand that's gonna paint out this picture of a worry-free life? Did you know you were gonna throw these events? Or is it or are you kind of doing this on the fly? Because someone might argue, hey, I look at Bob and this guy's got it all figured out, right? He he knew and he's just executing a plan, sort of like a master chef.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Um, to be honest, yes. Uh I did um um uh I did have like a dream scenario, and I still have because we're only two years in with here. Um and there's still like bigger dreams that will add to this lifestyle brand, um, and will translate this whole this whole vision that we have even better and and and bigger. But yes, when I started Hears, I of course dreamed as well on you know what would those events look like and what would um our biggest collaboration look like, or what would you know what what per what would who would be the perfect influencer? And and and yeah, it's it it sounds a bit spiritual, but but it is uh a manifestation in the very end. And if you're a successful e-commerce uh founder, at one point you you wrote down uh where you're gonna be in terms of revenue goals, and and and I still do. Um I still do when it comes to revenue goals or col collaborations. Um and and the crazy part is I I truly believe I'm I'm I'm gonna. I truly believe it's gonna uh it's gonna get to that point. Uh of course, you don't have anything in hand, um, and and and and there's a lot of unexpected things along the way when building a brand. Um, but at least if you have your North Star and and and wrote down the dream collaboration, and you you you you might find a path to it. And not not everything that you write down will work out, but what if what if 80% will work will work out? Uh and for us, uh it it did for some things already within the first two years of existence.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

I think another key, again, just from my perspective, watching you and your growth, is that you're building things that tie directly with what you enjoy personally in the lifestyle you enjoy, right? Again, it just seems that you're someone who loves not just brand building, but specifically this brand. Like yours is you, right? Like when I look at represent George Heaton, like he says this all the time. I am represent, right? Represent as me, and I'm represent. And I think I I've tried I've had this conversation with a lot of people, but when you're in when you're an entrepreneur, when you're a founder, if what you're building ties in hand in hand with what you personally love, you're gonna show up every single day extremely hard because it's just you. That's that's what you are. And so do you agree with that? Is that how here's comes off for you?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Absolutely, and not just here's also Doran Rose, because what most people get wrong when they talk about passion is like I'm not passionate about selling pajamas. I'm I'm I'm not I like I I don't have a passion for sleepwear, but what I do have a passion for is building a brand that stands out uh in in a sleepwear industry. Um so even with Doran Rose, it still is me because we still or and and and and and of Nick, of course, my my co-founder, it still is something that we think is great, and we chose to do that content strategy, and we chose to go for that logo, that name, and that that vision. So it still is us, even though we're not passionate about the the product itself in that case. Well, for here's we're a lot more passionate given you know also the social aspect that it's giving and uh and the technology behind it that we've been creating. Um but in the end, the brand really is is us in in anything that we do. Um, and I think you're absolutely right saying that when it comes to you have to love what you do, and it really needs to be you, because to be successful in this environment, um you you need to work those days and like you you're making those long days and you're making those weekend days, you work seven days a week, I don't know how many hours a day. Um you better make sure you're enjoying it, because otherwise it's gonna be uh a hell of a ride, and and and no one is gonna um sustain building a brand that they're not passionate about. No one is. I don't I I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I I completely agree, and I think this is something I wanted to double click on because I did want to get to Doran Rose. Um, you know, I've I've I've also been involved with multiple brands. I started in electronics, selling phone chargers, and I got into bedding, selling pillows, now I'm in supplements, selling daily powders, cooking accessories. I I think this is super important to talk about because I'm not passionate necessarily about all these individual products, right? I I focused on selling phone chargers for seven years. And after those seven years, I I was literally I don't know how much more I can talk about phone chargers, right? Like I I but I think it's so much more than that. It's the passion is around building not just the brand, but just the business. There's a there's a perfection element of how these businesses can run. Um so it's it's almost uh the front end and the back end, but I think the under Long messages, you know, I know I've got friends, two guys who are in the pregnancy prenatal business. You know, none of them have a kid, but they've built an amazing business. They're two, they're two dudes that sell, you know, pregnancy pillows. And I I love that because who cares, right? It's they've built an amazing business with amazing product, their customers love them, and at the end of the day, it works beautifully. So I think that's a stigma that people need to break where it's like, oh, you need to be obsessed personally with the product. No, it's the overall game of building the business.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Absolutely. And I I think there's also different levels of motivation, especially when you're starting, um, you know, financially, that it's the biggest aspect. Um, and and uh finance comes with a bit of freedom as well in doing whatever you want to do. Um and then secondly, like especially when when starting here is um there's a whole nother level of of motivation and dedication that comes alive uh because you know, with with the product itself, um, we're also doing something that's good for the world and good for other people. Um and seeing seeing the responses of that and seeing the community being hyped about here in protection and like um promoting us because they they vouch for a brand and they vouch for what we're doing, um, is another level of motivation and and and something that comes with that as well is your own pride. Um I'm I'm really proud of what what I've built and what I'm doing with and the type of products that I'm selling, um, which is another um level of of motivation and doing doing what you're doing. Um so I uh first for me it was pure financial, but I don't think that that levels as much um as the other ones.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

The key message there is maybe not necessarily passionate about, let's say, sleepwear, but you're passionate about selling good products, things that people enjoy, high quality, things that you're proud to put your name behind. And again, talking about young e-com founders, people are just selling shit on the internet, you know, these days. And I think that's a terrible, terrible short-term solution. Again, like I look at you as a long-term thinker and you're doing all those things.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

I hope so. I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

I also want to get into AI. Um, you know, obviously in this day and age, everything, everyone we know is just pretty much set up on Claude, Manis, all the tools, right? You name it, the Higgs fields of the world, 24-7 working on productivity, efficiency hacks, but again, coming back to brand, is that deeply integrated into your workflow specifically on the brand side? Like, are you having AI tools give you that strategy, or is it still very much like a human touch, the Bob touch?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

No, I think it's uh I think you know, in general, like AI is a tool, and as long as we keep seeing it as a tool and not a direct replacement of everything human, um, I think it's fantastic. I think it's great. Um, Claude, uh, ChatGPT, what's so on. I I think especially for brand, it's it's very specific to talk about, you know, like uh because brand is such a such a broad term. Um but when it comes to you know like brainstorming about a social campaign, for example, uh brainstorming about or um thinking about how we should do this event, yes, I I I do use uh a plot or chat GPT to help me come up with some ideas to put on this here's RD spring break party. Um so it's not a full automation of how decide my strategy because I have my own thoughts of that. And I think to do something that's out of the ordinary, um, you also should think about something that no one ever did before, uh, or at least um think of something creatively that's not that's not necessarily uh ChatGPT coded. Um but uh those tools can definitely help you shape it and definitely can help you um yeah guide some some some direction um in into what uh into into be uh on brand really. Um so yeah, I I really see it as a tool rather than a replacement on what should be my brand strategy.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I definitely agree because if it was a full replacement, you'd start seeing Chinese factories be able to build the next community and the next brand, but they struggle because they don't have that creative touch that someone like you has, for example.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

And I think I think one of the um one of the most important um um qualities that a brand could have is authenticity. And if if you're building your brand because people get lost in AI, people get like, okay, it's easy. Um but but you know this. You you see the AI brands and you see what's real. Um no matter how good AI will be, you'll you'll recognize what what is authentic in a brand if it's continuing. Yes, like of course we we generate uh a rendered AI and we um we do we do generate that one-liner, but if you continue to do that for everything your brand is, then it will feel an authentic and you won't win credibility with it to customer.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

When you look at brands that struggle with brand, you know, founders that struggle with brand, what's like in your opinion, the the biggest theme or the most common issue?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

They're boring. Most brands are boring. Um and and what I see what I see very often is uh you they're trying to be like even majority of the brands are boring because they they try to play it safe and they focus on product rather than uh you know doing something exciting or uh being out of the ordinary, going with but what brands who try to be on brand do wrong um is taking is is stealing from many other brands, copying from like 20 other brands, and oh, they did that social video, so we're gonna try to do this as well, it doesn't go viral, uh it's it's not on on brand for them, and it's it feels out of place really. Um and that's because good brands are simply translating their vision. Um, poor brands are stealing a lot of like different parts uh from other good brands, but it will it it will it will not feel as one direction and it's not feel it will not feel as a whole. So people will never understand the brand and they will never admire it because they don't know what it's trying to tell them. And I think that's what most brands are doing wrong, is not staying true to their selves um and not trying to communicate that vision uh that they stand for and and or not even having a vision that is uh something out of the ordinary.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

How do you know when it's working? Is it, you know, obviously let's say you put this strategy together, you're executing it, at what point does it start to kick in? And or or really how do you know when it starts to kick in? Is it and obviously I'm just asking kind of rhetorical questions in some senses, but is it followers? Is it better MER? Is it you know more referrals, word of mouth? Like how do you know when it's kicking in?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah, well, the most important thing is of course like good profits, uh good revenue, good profits. Um, but that's more like uh from a business per perspective. I think a brand is working the moment people start talking about it. You know, like if if if you don't have to do your marketing anymore and in any sense that other people are talking about your brand in a good way, preferably, that's when you know when your message comes across, and that's when you know when your brand is working.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

I think. I think one of the things that also people don't talk about are the hidden metrics. So for example, the the scene metrics obviously are followers, engagement, press, maybe the things people don't talk about are customer experience, customer service, for example. Like if if someone gets a product they're not happy with or you know, uh a defective product, and their customer service really sorts them out and gives them a pleasant experience. That's a huge that actually helps your brand, that that experience versus them coming to you and getting the cold shoulder. Are you guys also applying the same theory into your customer service and customer experience?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Absolutely. And uh I think we're what we recognized very early on is um the importance of keeping a customer rather than acquiring a new one. Um and that comes to customer service, the way your product is, the way they perceive the product, um, the way they experience the whole um uh customer journey. Um and we're still trying to work on that. We're still trying to optimize our customer service or or um speed or um you know, everything around the post-purchase. Um so yes, it's it's a very crucial part for us and um probably even more important than uh acquiring as many new customers as possible.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

And again, I think that's another thing that people are not talking about enough um is treating your existing customers really well and getting LTB up, maybe other than just constantly acquiring more and more and more customers that are getting necessarily Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

I see the biggest brands um um that I that I talk to, they they simply focus on lifetime value. Um and and they they adjust their paid media strategy based upon it. You know, like they ask themselves a question, how what is that lifetime value and how much money can we spend on acquiring a new customer? Um and and that's a very underrated um uh way of working because um uh most new brands are simply calculating their breake-even ROAS and don't think about the rest. It's just about acquiring that customer. So that's when the brand really comes to life, of course, and that's when you're gonna see true scale.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

One last question that I want to get into like a rapid fire segment. What are your thoughts on rebrands? Acceptable, unacceptable? Just in general, you know, like for example, uh brands will come out 15 years later. Hey, here's our new brand identity, our new positioning. They've just completely changed or refreshed. Have you ever done anything like that? What are your thoughts generally?

SPEAKER_00 32:20

I I think you I I I think my brands are quite young, so we haven't done a rebrand. Um, I also don't think it's needed. Um I think a rebrand could be good. Um if if the audience um yeah, like the world is changing. So um trends are changing, uh, brands should be evolving. So yes, uh a rebrand is definitely needed sometimes, even um when the when the brand's uh image or uh aesthetic feels a bit outdated and not resonating with its current audience. So yeah, I think uh a rebrand could be very good.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

I always wonder with the rebrands, um, if they're based on gut or data. You know, for example, if you just feel if you know management feels the brand doesn't work, versus what really should be happening, which is talking to your customers, um, engaging what they want, what they're seeing. I think that's another underrated tactic in D2C, which is like actual communication with your customers.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Absolutely. Um it's something it's something we do every day. Um we look at the post-purchase survey daily. I want to know what my customer wants. I want to and it's also not just about data, it's also getting that subjective feel on who your customer is and what kind of personality they have, and you you learn that only by time and really diving into um the behavior of your customer and what they say and what they respond to. Um so for example, your post-purchase survey is one of the most important things to really get to know your customer. Um, and a rebrand is simply the result of understanding your customer wants something different. So a rebrand based on gut is is something that yeah, I I don't see that happening.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Um Bob, I want to do a rapid fire segment. Um so I'll just shoot out questions, gut feeling. So first and foremost, very excited to hear yours, but favorite brand that's not yours.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Nude project. I think it's one of the most um uh creative um uh brands of of this uh of this time. Um they continue to put out content and advertising that is out of the ordinary. So yeah, I really admire the brand.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Favorite founder or operator that you learn from?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah, same answer, Bruno Casanovas. Um yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

The one tool or software you cannot live without. Pinterest. I like that. And that makes sense. Most overrated e-commerce tactic.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Uh the most overrated e-commerce tactic is to uh uh well e-commerce, yeah, like in in general business, I would say um micromanaging. I think you should be I think founders should be micromanaging much more often.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Completely agree. Completely agree. Um what about most underrated tactic?

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Micromanaging. Same. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

What's the best investment you've made in your business? Peers, Dornrose, whichever.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Getting a PA.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Ideal revenue range for personal happiness, maximizing lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

I don't think it's related to revenue. Um if if financially then it's related to profit. I couldn't put a number on that. I think it's it's so many different aspects on uh um there's so many other um factors that take into that need to be taken into account when it comes to you know freedom in life and um um in indeed like loving what you do and understand and yeah, having a having a business that you thrive in. Uh it's not just related to financials. I also don't want to paint that perspective.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Yeah, no, I I love that. And the reason I asked that question is because just speaking from my own experience, when I was younger getting started in all this, I had I did have a number, and we kind of, you know, just being honest, blew past that. And I I often I often wonder it, you know, it it's it's busy, right? It's it's hectic running these businesses, it's nonstop, you don't sleep much, you work super hard. And I often wonder what's better, you know, growing a big business, um that's doing these big numbers, or just kind of having a smaller one on autopilot. And so I guess that's the essence of the question.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

I think it's I think it's living in um harmony with um being financially free, um uh free in life, um loving what you do, as well as uh doing something good for the world. I think if if you nail all those in a not too exaggerated manner, then I think you're winning.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Last one. Best perk of being an e-commerce founder?

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Freedom. Doing uh working from where you want, with who you want, um, deciding every day what's the day is gonna look like and what what tasks are gonna be prioritized and what what people you can work with, uh who you can meet, and the people you get to meet. That's a lot of perks.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Completely agree. So is it safe to say you're pretty bullish and uh optimistic on the overall industry and and e-commerce in general where it's going the macro side of it?

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Yes. Um yes, I am. I think uh especially um where brand is winning or where great content is winning, I think uh the e commerce world is getting better and better. Well, the world is going to shit, by the way. But uh the e commerce world, um, yeah, definitely improving and uh I completely agree.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Um Bob, really appreciate it. That was a great, great chat. I learned a lot. Um thank you.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Thank you so much for having me.