Renting vs. Buying a Home: The True Costs Most People Ignore | 092

Renting vs Owning: The Real Costs Nobody Talks About (REISSUE) | 092

originally published 8/18/21

Renting vs. owning. It’s the personal finance debate that never dies. In this REISSUE from 2021, Chris and co-host April dig into the real costs people forget when they say “renting is throwing money away.”

We break down the sneaky homeowner expenses that don’t show up in your mortgage payment, like property taxes, homeowners insurance, repairs, appliances, and utilities.

Chris shares real numbers from his own home (including years where repairs and upgrades hit hard), while April compares it to the simplicity of renting where most costs are bundled and you can move with way less friction.

We also talk about lifestyle reality, flexibility, the emotional “permanency” factor, and why buying only makes sense if it matches your goals, timeline, and sanity. Plus, we point you to a rent vs. buy calculator you can use to run your own numbers.

In this episode, we cover:

• The true monthly cost of homeownership beyond the mortgage
• Property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and “surprise” repairs
• Utilities and what renters typically don’t pay for
• Flexibility, mobility, and why lifestyle matters more than ego
• Equity, appreciation, and the “rent is throwing money away” myth
• A practical rent vs. buy calculator to help you decide

Contact Chris:

https://heavymetal.money

https://www.facebook.com/MoneyHeavyMetal

https://x.com/MoneyHeavyMetal

https://www.instagram.com/chrisluger

https://www.tiktok.com/@heavymetalmoney

email: chris at heavymetal.money

Resources:

https://www.nerdwallet.com/mortgages/rent-vs-buy-calculator

Contact Chris:
https://heavymetal.money

https://www.instagram.com/heavy_metal_money/

https://www.youtube.com/@heavymetalmoney

https://www.facebook.com/chrisluger

email: chris at heavymetal.money

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I lost you. Oh, where'd you go? My name is Chris, and joining me, my co-host, my friend April. April, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Uh it's going great.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Nice. You uh this week's going well, it's a Tuesday so far. It's it's kicked off pretty pretty well. Uh for you or for I guess that was a question.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

I feel like it's Monday continued today.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Got it. Um, so we're we're actually we're gonna talk about something that came up a little bit last episode where we wanted to kind of dig in a little bit deeper on uh renting versus buying. And that was a question that we kind of shortly discussed last time. So we're gonna dig in a little deeper this time. We wanna also just remind everyone that we're gonna have all the show notes and links to things that we're gonna talk about today. You can find that over at heavymetal.money. Episode five. Yep, episode five. Yeah. So let's go ahead and actually kind of dive in a little bit on whether or not some things to consider, right? The benefits of renting versus buying, but then also there's benefits to buying too. It's kind of different schools of thought. You know, we did uh dug into an article here on uh invest uh Investipedia that kind of went through some of the things to look at, you know, reasons why renting may be better than buying. One of the first things I want to look at is uh taxes. Property taxes is one of the big ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

And so I uh I want to take a look at as we go through today, look at some real numbers. So I've been looking at my property taxes. Um, so where I live, my property taxes for this year is$3,850. Um, again, I've looked at the last few years considerably going up uh every single year. Um, so this past year was uh$3,850. You break that down, it's$321 a month. So again, that's you know, a cost that you may not, well, you wouldn't typically have when you rent, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

So well, and honestly, like now that you say that, considering where you live, I'm surprised that your taxes are that high. I don't know why I say that, but like looking where I'm looking, you know, when I first moved to the city, the metro area, people were saying when I was looking in Hudson that Hudson taxes were so unbelievably high. Why would you look there? The taxes are so high. They're very comparable to what you're saying right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah, and it does, it's amazing. I learned the other day I was talking to a friend of mine just outside of Chicago, and we actually were talking about uh investing, and he was talking looking at the possibility of um purchasing his first uh investment property, and that was the deal breaker. You are not gonna believe what the taxes are in Chicago. Like for his home, taxes are like$15,000 a year. Are you serious? No, I'm not. So, like this rental property, we ran an analysis on the numbers to find out if it would cash flow, and taxes were like, I don't know, like twelve thousand dollars or something. But it's like, yeah, you were basically you couldn't cash flow based on what compar what comparable rents were with taxes so high. Um but yeah, so property taxes are a big one, right? So you break that down, that's three three hundred and twenty-one dollars a month. Um another another one that you may have to pay. Um, you know, some people do elect to do that. I don't know if you actually have uh a separate renter's insurance policy. Do you have one today? I do. I do. And so just out of curiosity, what are you paying? What's your your renter's insurance premium?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I think because it's bundled with my car insurance.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Maybe like nine, ten bucks a month, maybe if that.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Right, right. Yeah. I know that when my son was uh when he was living on his own, he that's how much it was on his uh on his auto policy as well. Um yeah, so my my homeowner's insurance. Um, I'm looking at my current policy, it's$27.85 a year. So again,$2,785,000 a year. That's your insurance. Yeah, that's my homeowner's policy, correct. And so and so that that is about so you break that down, that's about$232 a month. So already there's definitely a lot, a lot of expense included in that. Um, but again, you know, that's because again, some of the differences, right? So, you know, that is no, my house burns down what the replacement value would be. Um it includes some additional stuff for like my I have like a shed in the backyard. So it includes like any auxiliary units that have to be built. Like I actually did have a claim a couple years ago, and a tree fell on my shed. You know, there's a huge storm, crushed my shed. I had to tear that down, I had to build a new one, I had to file a claim. So I mean that's that's why those premiums are so high. And so, but yeah, so my homeowner's insurance per year is uh is about$2,700. So definitely considerable difference there when it comes to paying rent. And again, it it does based on what's going to be covered.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

I think you know, rental insurance is definitely if if you have, you know, things, if somebody breaks in, steals your stuff, it basically covers inside, doesn't cover any of the structure or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Does that cover like let's say, you know, I don't even know if does that cover like if something, let's say a pipe breaks and your apartment floods and your furniture gets wet and ruined or something? Is it it does okay?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Yeah, that's one of the things that they well, especially when like when I sign my lease, one of their requirements is renters insurance because the rent has insurance does cover that kind of thing. And one of the examples she gave me was somebody turned on their dishwasher and then they left for work and their downstairs neighbor's apartment flooded.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

So she said it's very important that you have renter's insurance.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, I can't remember, I can't remember how old I was. I was in still in grade school because my dad and I we lived in an apartment up until sixth grade, up until I was in sixth grade. Not my dad was in sixth grade, that'd be weird. But so we were in this apartment, and I remember one of the time we got home, and it was so crazy because we got home and it was it had been raining and stuff, and like around a couple of the windows, you could see the water literally like waterfalling like through the wind, like the bottom of the windowsill, and then waterfalling, like waterfalling down the wall to the to the floor. Now we lived in the in the bottom, the basement apartment, but like the carpet literally was floating on water. And like I remember you could go over and like slap it with your hand or step on it, and it would like ripple like a waterbed. The entire carpet was floating. So I remember um splims. Oh man, it was so crazy. But I remember, you know, they they went through and they removed all that. And I remember we were there for uh a week or so with just concrete floor. We're on the basement, right? You know, while we were waiting for that to get resolved. But yeah, that was one memory I had of uh water in my apartment. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. So some of the other expenses that we look at is just ongoing maintenance, and you're gonna be doing a lot of this maintenance stuff yourself, right? So things like it's regular wear and tear items, but also some of those big things, typically what I refer to as capital expenditure, right? So it's one of those things where it's a larger item, right? Like let's say it's your your air conditioner. So for instance, uh back in 2017, my central AC went out. It was installed it back in 1999. So it was close. So this is your personal house, correct? Yep, personal house. This was close, so it was close to being 20 years old, my central AC. It uh it had been slowly, um, you know, a couple of years prior to that, been slowly not cooling as well as it should. And uh, you know, luckily my dad was in the business, and so you know, he had he had since passed away, but he left me all of his gauges and his tools and actually some uh some refrigerant as well. And so I I had recharged my central AC for several years, for for a few years, you know, every season I'd go out and oh, I need to charge. And I would go charge it. Well, finally, like the third year, it's like charged it up and it's still it just didn't hold. There's a leak and stuff. So I ended up paying, um, I looked at it paying about$2,600 for a brand new central air unit. Again, that's but now, you know, that'll last 20 years, right? I mean, right, and and it it is more efficient than the one I had from 1999. I mean, it does it cost a lot less to run it as well. So um, but yeah, that it was an expense that you know I kind of knew it was coming and and eventually I had to pay that. So that was$2,600. If you look at, you know, I went and I pulled up um I use Mint to track all my expenses and I I have uh all the categories pretty accurate. Um, so it's easy for me to kind of you know separate some of these expenses. So I went through and looked at uh 2019. Um 2019, I I paid about$5,300 for the year. Um, so$5,300 for the year and miscellaneous repairs and home improvement that did include like a sliding patio door that was$20, like$2,900. Uh and that was the full, so the complete sliding door to my patio like wouldn't move. The the house had had like bowed and shifted in such a way that the door was just being pinched and it couldn't be, I had to have the entire frame removed and I had to get a whole new one installed. And that's outside my my purview. I don't think I could have done that um or done it well, put it that way. So, you know, I hired a contractor to get that done. And uh I'm absolutely 1000% happy with the result. I think if I ever had to do it again, I would hire the exact same firm to do it. It would do a great job. But again, that was an added expense, right? So where if you're a renter and that happened, you would just call the landlord and you know that wouldn't be expense out of your pocket, right? Um, and then there was also just many miscellaneous uh repairs, added up to about$5,300 for the entire year of 2019. Um in 2020, it was an odd year because with this with the onset of COVID, um I did more work than I typically would have around the house. So re-replacing a bunch of outside light fixtures. Um, I refinished all the inside cabinets. Um, so again, that wasn't again a lot less than getting the cabinets replaced, but you know, I had materials, the stain, um, you know, different painting materials, rollers and pads and you know, painters, tape, all that stuff. Um, but also I got all new carpet. So again, the carpet was 20 years old. So the carpet was and flooring too. Didn't you get new flooring? Like the carpet ripped out and new flooring. Exactly. So I ripped up all the old carpet. I got half the carpet replaced with new carpet, and then the other half was was vinyl planking. And so all of those upgrades and and you know, maintenance items um was close to twelve thousand dollars. Um, so that was kind of an odd year. I mean, it typically wouldn't have been that much, but still it was stuff as a homeowner you you had to do, right? Another thing that I in 2019 that I didn't include in this number, that was interesting. Yeah. So, or maybe no, I did that$5,300. I'm sorry,$300, it also included new appliances. Okay. So that was again, as a renter, you know, your your dishwasher goes out. You're not gonna have to go out and buy a new one, right? That's that's the responsibility of the landlord. And so, me, you know, I had a dishwasher and you know, the rest of my appliances were again approaching 20 years old. They they weren't as working as well as they should have. And so it was about time to to get those replaced. Again, the idea is hey, now they're gonna last another, you know, 10, 15 years or something. So that that was included in that$5,300. So that's why that was a little higher there in 2019. I am adding numbers right now. Yeah, and so some of the things that um, you know, if we look at too is just also the ongoing utilities. Um, one of the things that so for um for electricity, I averaged it out. My average electricity over the last two years has been about$97 a month. Now that's averaged out for the two years. Obviously, it's much higher during the the summer months when I'm running the air conditioner. So it does drop considerably during the winter because you're not going to be running the AC, but then it kind of offsets because your your natural gas then does go up a little bit. Because you're running the heat. Yep, because you're running the furnace. Yeah, natural gas, natural gas is far less expensive than electricity. And that's where if you look at so electricity averaged about$97 a month over the last two years. My gas averaged about$42 a month over the last two years. Um, another thing that's typically included in your uh in rental is the garbage. Um I shouldn't say that. I mean, it's typically included in garbage when you're at like um a multifamily structure or like in an apartment. Um, sometimes if you are renting like a single family home, you may be responsible for the garbage. But so my my garbage was uh again, it averaged out, it's a quarterly bill, but it averages out to about$29 a month. So that's another expense that you typically wouldn't have to pay living in an apartment. Um and then the the one of the last things is just water and sewer. So um again, I averaged out uh water, so my water bill averaged out$80 a month. Um, it's a little bit high. Um this year was different because I hadn't been running my sprinkler as often as I typically would have, because we're in such a drought. I've just elected not to do it because I felt guilty. Knowing that we're in a drought, I just don't want so you know what my front yard looks like a freaking it's a wasteland. Like there's so many, it is it's dead. But I just you know being knowing that we're in such a drought, I just felt not right watering. But yeah, typically I'd be w you know, watering that lawn typically every other day during those peak summer months, you know. But yeah, so averaging that out over the last two years, it was about 80 bucks a month for water. So what kind of utilities or what is included in your rent as a renter?

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I only well, what's in everything but electricity. So I don't pay for water, sewer. I don't pay for um well, I don't have gas. I have hot water heat. Um and then your garbage, your garbage is included. Garbage included, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

I mean I only pay electricity, so and then your your average electricity bill is approximately how much?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Um I have the like the whatever reduce the monthly payments and it I think it works out to about right now I'm paying forty-five a month, but I always January always end up paying like$150 extra. So it probably works out to about$50 to$53 a month for electricity.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

And so that that um that program you're talking about that evens out the payments throughout the year, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Is that what it's yeah, it makes it so that I'm not paying like$80 in the summer and fifteen dollars in the winter. It just makes so I'm making the same payment all year round.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Got it. And that's what I do with my my gas too. My natural gas, it it evens it out all year long, and then I have kind of one payment that's kind of a balloon. Um, but I I uh the one thing I was gonna mention too is that I do have uh, and again, I'll post a link in the show notes. There's uh an article that I posted about saving money on your electric bill, you can reduce um electric bill using those high peak times. A lot of different electric utility companies have a similar program. So my program is such that when it's during those peak usage times, they'll just send out a text telling you that it's a peak usage time between like 5 and 7 p.m. And then they're just encouraging you to not use power during those two hours. The cool thing too is I have a smart thermostat and stuff, so I can easily program that to basically I'll I'll cool down the house ahead of time, and then during those times, I'll just run my laptop on battery, my phone iPad on battery. I turn off all utilities that I, you know, everything that's typically would be plugged in. I put my my my desktop machines to sleep. Then um, you know, I don't go like nuts and like unplug on the power strips and stuff, but um typically do that for those two hours. And then like the next day they send you a summary and said, Hey, you saved six dollars. So that actually cool. Yeah, it works out pretty, pretty well. So, and if you do it, especially if you do it like a couple times a week, you know, that's$12 a week that you can be saving on your electric bill. So it's uh it's a pretty good program if you're you know, if you don't mind either, you know, hanging out in the basement when it's a hundred degrees outside. I pre-cool down the house to about 69 degrees. That way I can turn off the AC. Yeah and uh it's not not too not too miserable.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So that's really cool. What okay, what company do you have that does that?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, that's for uh our local um it's actually a uh energy co-op called Connexus Energy. Oh co-op. Yep, yeah, and I don't know I don't know too much about what the differences are. A co-op, I know that they send me stuff in the mail to go vote for people on the board. I don't know who they are, but you can be, and I think you get as a member of the co-op, you do get like some rebates back on your bill like every year. And so it's actually a pretty good program.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Okay, so I'm doing numbers here.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

And I'm doing a lot of averages. So if I take all the money that you spent on maintenance from 2017 to 2020, oh, that's four years. Okay, well, I figured it out to a three-year average. So a three-year average is about sixty six hundred a year over three years.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

And if you add a so if you add up your rent, and again that's not including like like that's not including like a mortgage payment. I know that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Like that's what I'm saying, is I'm breaking these down. So six sixty six hundred a year, that's just for the maintenance. Then you include um what was the other two that you had, your homeowners insurance policy plus your property taxes.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

So um and that's over the course of years. That's another sixty six hundred dollars over the course of a year. So that's thirteen thousand dollars per year, which works out to eleven hundred dollars a month. And then if you include all your utilities, thirteen fifty a month. And that is outside of your mortgage payment. Your if you have to like have um like mortgage insurance, any taxes. No, your property taxes are right there. So yeah, that's outside of the mortgage. So I mean if your mortgage is twelve hundred dollars, you know, you wow, that's yeah, that's something to think about right there.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

So the only thing that right, and so you know, again, so far we've talked about that it definitely seems like you could save considerably amount of money by renting. Now let's also look at, you know, I have a house, my house is like twenty two hundred square feet. And so you look at an apartment, and I think your apartment's like what, twelve hundred or I don't even know. No, it's it's like nine fifty. Nine fifty? Okay. And that's that's that's that's average, right? I mean for an apartment, yeah. I think in all honesty, that's what I'm looking at. I'm looking at sizing because I looked at in the where I live, that's the minimum footprint to build, is you need nine hundred and sixty square feet to build. Really? You can't have because I was looking at the possibility of doing a tiny home and the structure. I mean, obviously, if it's not if it's just a trailer, you could you could obviously, right? But to build a structure, it there's a minimum footprint of 960 square feet.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah. Um wow. And then, you know, one thing that we we didn't really look over to is some of the things that, you know, some of the amenities that, you know, and sometimes you know the kind of luxuries that, you know, renters may get, like, you know, in ground pool. Pools, fitness centers, um, a lot of these things that those apartment complexes have for tenants at no additional charge, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, that's something that you brought up that uh was something that I didn't really consider. You know, like I just amenities, I just think, well, you know, yay, it's a pool. We can use it when we want. But kind of take it for granted sometimes when you consider that most places and the the HOA factors into that too, because a lot of places that if you buy a house, if there's a pool available, then you have to pay the homeowners association fee in order to use the pool and the facilities and stuff like that. And that is anywhere between you know 175 to 350, 450 a month, a year, you know. So that's that's definitely another added thing that you know you have to consider.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah, I know that uh when my kids were smaller, which also means they were younger, by the way. Typically that's how it works. But when my when my kids were younger, when they were over at their mom's, their mom was renting an apartment here locally. But that was another thing too, is that they had uh not only did they have like uh a fitness center, but they also had, you know, they had like pool and ping pong and they had like uh a couple hot tubs, like jacuzzi's and stuff. And so definitely some uh some amenities that you know as a homeowner you may not always have access to. Another big thing that we really didn't talk about though is also just getting into a primary home to begin with, right? So getting into an apartment, you typically are gonna pay, you know, first and last month rent. You're gonna have like a security deposit, typically that is like a month's rent, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Um, you know, getting into a home, you're gonna have a considerable down payment. Again, there's there's programs available to get, you know, whether it's FHA or you know, first-time home buyer, where you can hit get in for as little as like 3% down, but typically you're gonna have 10%, you know, sometimes even 20% down, considerable amount of money just to get into your home that now you're gonna be paying so much additional money for it, right? You know, the one thing too is that I wanted to just talk about is you know, a lot of this again, we kind of talked about, well, hey, this is you know, looks like we're gonna save a lot of money on on the rent, but we also need to look at, you know, if if we're buying a home, there are some advantages, you know, like you're build you are building equity for the most part, right? Typically, you look at the historical averages for the most part, property typically is increasing in value. Now, is it gonna happen every time, every year? Like, you know, we we don't have that magical crystal magical? We don't have that magic we don't have that magic crystal ball that is going to see what the future market will be. But on the average, your home values will increase. What that is, uh, you know, typically it's you know, three to five percent a year. It depends. It, you know, in current depends when you when you buy, when you sell. Yep. And and obviously the the housing market is crazy nuts right now, where people literally, their values of their home has skyrocketed in the past just a couple years. So, um, but so you are establishing equity. Um, you know, it's it's it's interesting because when I was when I was being raised as a kid, I remember being told um multiple people. I mean, my dad was one of them that said, you know, why would you ever rent? You're just throwing money away, right? You have no tangible thing to nothing for nothing to show for the money that I've that I've spent. That was kind of their uh that was their view, right? Like they were saying you might as well be paying towards the principal and building equity in that home while you're there, because you have to live somewhere anyway. But now being older and looking at things differently, I don't always think that renting purely is just throwing money away because you still need to live somewhere. So if you're renting and you are comfortable and you have all the amenities that you want, you know, I don't really have that like, hey, you're just throwing money away attitude anymore at all. Everyone's different, right? Personal finance is personal for a reason. And if it fits you and your lifestyle, it can go either way.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Well, and I feel like it definitely plays a part in in your lifestyle too. You know, one thing somebody brought up to me was you know, sometimes it's the idea of having to sell a house and get it ready and put on the market and go through the stress of all of that, you know, whereas you rent, I mean, you can pick up and leave whenever you want, basically. You give a 30-day notice and you're you're done. You know, so I mean, if that's if you don't, I don't know, in my situation, like where I'm not 100% sure where I want to live, you know, I've been stressing myself out so much about location, location, location. When in reality, like if I rented, I could move again. And if I don't like that location, or if my situation changes, my job changes, who's to say I can't just move, you know, I can just pick up and move and move somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah, I think, and that's the thing. I think when you're when you do rent, you just you have a lot more flexibility, right? And so, and that's and that's not for everyone, but a lot of people love that. I mean, like my daughter, oh my gosh, like she loves the idea that she can just go wherever, whenever, and not tied to anything or any place ever. You know, me, I I like to have a home base. I like to know that that is a sense of permanency. Like I can go to that place and it'll always be there. That's just kind of the way my brain works.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

But see, and that's where I have been. I mean, that's where my mind has been set is is that permanency. Like I just want to have someplace where I can put a bookshelf or I can attach something to a wall and not sit there, go, well, it's temporary. We don't know how long it's actually gonna stay there. You know, if I want to build a wall or build, you know, build something in the house, I can do that and know that it's mine and nobody's gonna stop me, you know. But at the same time, you know, it's it's that constant mental battle of, but where are you gonna find that place?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Being a being a single mom and working on polar opposite side of the city that my son goes to school, it affects everything because I have no, I really have no idea where I want to be.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

So it's a tricky place. It is. It is. And I wanted to I want to let everyone know too that we we are gonna have a link to uh a great rent versus buy calculator tool um offered by Nerdwallet. We'll have that in the show notes. And uh it's actually really cool because you can put in like where you want to live, a home's purchase price. Um, there's also a calculator that can help determine how much you can afford when it comes to you know qualifying for that mortgage and what house you're gonna be actually buying. There's also something to calculate what that down payment may be, and then whether or not you're gonna do like a 15-year or 30-year mortgage. Um, again, that's not something we haven't really talked about that, but we can certainly go on that path. And then you look at like how long you're gonna live there, right? Is it something where, you know what, I just need to live somewhere for three years until this life change happens, right? That could very well be, right? Your younger couple, maybe you're gonna um, you know, live here until your spouse is done with college and then gonna start a residency in some other state or whatever, right? There's tons of different reasons why one would move and looking at what's right, you know, buying it now versus just renting until you are ready to move to that next stage or next thing of life, right? So, really cool. We got a calculator that we're gonna add to add to the show notes. And I'm curious to see, you know, you know, others go ahead and uh let us know. I mean, send us an email, drop us a comment. I'd love to know kind of your feelings on whether or not you feel as though renting versus buying, which is better. Um, do you do do people out there still feel as though renting is just throwing money away? I'm curious to see uh see your thoughts. I'm very curious about that too. And with that, we're about to wrap up. Um, I want to thank everyone for their time today. I really do appreciate it. And I want to just remind everybody we'll have links in the show notes at heavymetal.money. And uh also feel free to sign up for uh our mailing list. And uh we also want to let everyone know we really would appreciate going to Apple Podcasts and leaving a review. We really do appreciate it. Again, the more reviews we get, the better we are, the higher on the ranks that we uh that we that we move. So I want to thank everyone for their time.