All or Nothing: Training, Fueling, and HYROX with Joe Mello

What does it actually take to run 60 miles a week, lift heavy multiple times a week, and still show up for HYROX competitions — without falling apart?

Joe Mello figured it out the hard way. He grew up playing baseball in the Bay Area, hated running his whole life (it was literally used as punishment at practice), and then one November day in Austin decided to sign up for a marathon happening in February — with zero race experience. That's just who he is: all or nothing.

Now Joe runs high mileage, lifts heavy, competes in HYROX, and works at Heart and Soil Supplements — where nutrition isn't just a hobby, it's his job. In this conversation we get into all of it: how he structures his week, how he fuels that kind of training load, what his supplement stack actually looks like, and the mindset behind doing more than most people think is possible.

We also get into:

•       What HYROX actually is and why it appeals to people who love both running and lifting

•       The running vs. lifting tension — and why Joe thinks most runners have it wrong

•       How to fuel early morning long runs when eating at 4am sounds impossible

•       The animal-based diet explained simply — and how it applies to endurance training

•       Organ meats: do you actually have to eat them, or do supplements cover it?

•       Why Joe thinks starting with shorter races is the advice he'd give his past self

•       The 50K he ran with nothing but a jar of honey — and what happened around mile 25

Joe is the kind of person who jumps in before he's ready and figures it out on the way. If that sounds familiar, this one's for you.

Follow Joe on Instagram: @joe_mello

Follow Evan on Instagram: @evan_blakeney

Heart and Soil Supplements: heartandsoil.co

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts — it helps more runners find the show. And subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Until Next Time: Just Keep Running

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Just Keep Running. I'm Evan Blakeney. Here's something that I want you to picture. You're twenty five miles into a 50K race. That's 31 miles for those of us thinking in English terms. Your legs are absolutely cooked, and you've got six miles left, and the only fuel you brought with you is a jar of honey. That is exactly where my guest today found himself. And in his words, not mine, around mile twenty five, a jar of honey is not fun at all. What I love about that story is that it tells you exactly who Joe Mello is before he even says another word. He's someone who figures things out by doing them, and doing them at a level that most people wouldn't even attempt. Joe grew up playing baseball in the Bay Area, and he lifted weights his whole life, and he genuinely hated running. It was literally used as punishment at baseball practice. Then he moved to Austin, Texas, and he started working in a gym that trained endurance athletes. He watched people come in after like an 18 mile long run to lift weights, and he thought to himself, hmm, I wonder when the Austin Marathon is. It was November, and the marathon was in February, but he signed up anyway. That's the kind of guy we're talking to today. Now he runs sixty plus miles a week, lifts heavy multiple times a week, runs and competes in high rocks events. And if you're not familiar with what that is, we'll get into that later in the episode. And nutrition is a major part of his life and his work at the Heart and Soil Supplement Company, so you can be sure that he thinks long and hard about how he fuels this type of intense effort. Today we get into the training, the nutrition, the supplement stack, and what it actually looks like to stack this much on your plate and keep showing up every single day. Glad you're here. Let's get into the episode. All right. Welcome everybody. We have a guest today for the first time. Um talking with Joe Mello. Uh he works at Heart and Soil Supplement Company. Um, and I actually heard about him through an email newsletter from Heart and Soil that I received that he had written, and it really struck me as interesting. So um you you did a great job on the on the uh subject line. It grabbed my attention because I I mean most newsletters you see come through your inbox, you know, you just kind of forget about them and skip past them. But I was like, well, this guy says he's running 60 plus miles a week and lifting heavy m several times a week. I was like, I gotta see what he has to say. That's interesting. Um so that's what piqued my interest. Reached out, and uh Joe was kind enough to come on the podcast. And and uh so yeah, here we are. And Joe, if you don't mind just uh telling myself and the audience a little bit about yourself, um, your background, where you grew up, things like that, um, what sports you might have been into in high school, college, that sort of thing. What what got you started?

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Yeah, well, I appreciate you having me first off, and uh it's always nice uh talking to someone else who's always interested in hardened soil and kind of that whole lifestyle. So it's awesome that you're having me here. Um my background, I grew up in California, now live in Austin, Texas, but grew up in the Bay Area in a town called Dublin, California, which is about 35, 40 minutes east of San Francisco. Um grew up by playing baseball. Um, I was pretty good at baseball. It was the only sport I played growing up. Um played in high school, played in college, played a little bit professionally as well. So um I think that's kind of where my lifting background comes from because to be honest, like never been a runner, always hated running. Um growing up, I always had a run for punishment. In baseball, we would have to do either win sprints. Um as I became a pitcher, we would have to do long distance running, and I just absolutely hated it. So um growing up, I was always, like I said, played baseball, enjoyed lifting really heavy, um enjoyed just kind of always like increasing my strength, um trying to squat, trying to bench, trying to deadlift as much as I can. That was kind of always my passion. And then kind of moving forward, I moved to Austin, I think in 2022, got a job at a local gym here, and we started where I worked, we trained um endurance runners. So like marathonners, 10 5k, 10K, pretty much everything. And you know, we'd have people coming in and on a Saturday and be like, you know, I just got like my 18-mile long run in, and and now they're lifting. And to me, that just like sounded absolutely crazy. I was like, what do you mean? Yeah, like what do you mean you just ran 18 miles, you're coming in for a lift, you have like nine easy miles tomorrow, and it just kind of kind of I was just very curious. So I think around that time, it was November, and then I was just kind of looking and I was thinking, I wonder when the Austin Marathon is. Because I'm kind of what you might learn about me here, I'm a kind of an all or nothing type guy, so it's like uh I always go for the big dream and the big picture of everything. Yeah. And like without even having a race, never running a race, barely running. I was like, I wonder when the Austin Marathon is. And this was in November, and it was February 20th. So it gave me like, yeah, like three months, signed up for it. I ended up running a half marathon in January for my first race prior to the Austin Marathon, and then ran the Austin Marathon after that. So that's kind of what and ever since that I've had I've had the endurance bug, I've had the running bug. So now bring a couple marathons. I have a half marathon coming up in May in San Diego, done a couple high rockses, so now I'm just uh I'm fully in it now.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So um, yeah, that's that's really cool. So, me, it's funny. I used to run a little bit in college. Um, nothing, I never it was really just for weight loss, really. And then I hyperextended my knee and kind of fell out of it. Um, and I I tried to get back into it a few times since, and my knee just like wouldn't let me. And then last year, I was like, I gotta get running again. Man, I was like over 230 pounds, and I was like, man, I gotta get I gotta get going again. So I start running, and like the third time I run, I got out, I was in a hotel uh working on the road, and uh my buddy texts me right as I get off the treadmill, and he's like, Hey, so I've been like getting into running lately, and I did a marathon, and I've done a couple ultra marathons, and there's an ultra marathon near you. He lives out in California and I live in Maine. So he's like, There's an ultra marathon in New Hampshire pretty close to you in August next year. Do you want to do it with me? And I was like, What? Like, just totally out of the blue. So I was like, um, all right, sure. So I that's kind of what got me back into it this go around. And uh, and then I just kind of remembered how how much I love it. Um and I just did a half marathon. It was my I did a 10K last fall, and then I did a half marathon um like four weeks ago.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

And that was really, really fun. That was really cool. It was uh it was like it was a legit challenge, you know. Like like the 10K was a challenge for sure. Like I don't think I could have gone much harder. Um, but the the half marathon was like, all right, this like I'm in pain now. Like it was it was a real effort to do it, you know. So I felt really, really good about that. Um and yeah, there's something about it, like you said, like like jumping in. I I think most people hate running and they had to do running a lot as a kid, like you said, like right, like you show up late for practice and you're doing win sprints, right? Like that was uh or uh in in football when I was younger, it was uh suicide sprints, right? Uh goal line to 10, go a line to 20, go line to 30, go all the way up to the 50 yard line and then back down 40, 30, 20. Like if you showed up late, you did anything wrong, that was your punishment, right? So like no one really enjoyed running. But I feel like if people get past that, like especially out of like like I don't know, I'd say like you get past 5k for me personally. This is just me personally, but like you get past 5k and you start getting into where you're running like 40 minutes to an hour, and you just get in that like flow of of moving, it's there's something about it. I don't know why it's so enjoyable, but it really is. Like, I love it personally.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

No, I mean, especially it's funny you say that too, because it's it's kind of like that with me too, but it's also like I've had bad runs, and there's some runs where like I'm a little upset, but I've never been like, man, I shouldn't have gone on that run. It's like I always feel some sense of accomplishment, whether it's a five, an easy five miles or a hard, 16-mile long run. Like I get the same sense of accomplishment from those two runs, and I think that's kind of at least all I speak for me. I feel like this is the same for a lot of endurance runners, that you kind of you get that sense of accomplishment, and you just kind of keep building and building and building on top of that, and that's kind of what keeps you going. So for me, that's kind of what I've noticed is like first mile kind of sucks. You get through that, you kind of get in the groove, and then by the end, you're like, man, that wasn't that bad. And you just for me, I run super early in the morning, so it just like starts my whole day off. And like after that, it's like I could do anything. Like I just went on a 10-mile run, like my life's pretty easy now after having just suffered through that. So it's like uh it just it just kind of sets me up for success, I feel like.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Nice. Yeah, so bad runs. I th I like everybody has bad runs, right? Like it happens to all of us. What do you do personally when you because some like for me personally, I feel like bad runs usually start before the run starts.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

100%.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Right. Like like my legs don't feel good. I wake up, everything's stiff, I'm tired, horrible sleep score from the night before, right? Like just all of those things, and it's like you're already in your head before you even put your shoes on. Like that's usually where they start. And sometimes, like, like sometimes it's just a slog and you just get through it. And and like you said, once once you get through it, you're proud of it, right? But like, do you find anything that works particularly well for you, like maybe that first or second mile, trying to break those like pre-run um mental doubts or just like that negativity? Like, do you have anything personally that you use? I'm just kind of curious.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Well, if I do have a bad runner, I just feel kind of off that day. I'll first kind of ask myself why. So it might be I might be underfueled, I might have, like you said, not gotten enough sleep, I might have had a long day at work the day before and just kind of been a little extra stressed. So I first kind of try to figure out, hey, is this something maybe I could have avoided? Is it something that, you know, I have control of? And if it's something that I don't have control of, or even if I do have a control of it and I'm in the middle of my run now, I kinda I tell myself that um something is just better than nothing. So for that time, and especially running, running so grueling on your body, and it's just very tough. And especially like the more miles you run, the deeper you get into it. It's a huge stressor on your body. It's a huge stressor just on like your lifestyle overall. It takes a lot out of you. So for me on those days, I usually just tell myself like taking it easy is is okay. I'm I kind of find myself to be a perfectionist, so it's it's hard for me to do that sometimes. But um, I think just getting going is the most important thing in those days because kind of like you said, once you get going and you usually get through a mile or two, you'll feel better than when you started. So I think getting over that initial hump of like I feel terrible, things aren't going well, I didn't sleep well, um, and just getting getting your shoes on and getting out the door. I think that's probably the most important thing. And then I've noticed for myself, once I do that and I kind of get going a little bit, it turns into a better run than I thought of.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Yeah. Yeah, for me, it's funny. This morning was actually that situation, like nothing went right for me this morning. Um, we've got two small kids, my wife and I. We've got a five-year-old and a two-year-old. And uh the two-year-old's going through some growing pains. And it was supposed to start raining this morning at like eight. So I was like, I'm gonna try to get out early, get a get a run in. I was like, I'm gonna do a 10K today. And uh, and then my wife was up quite a bit with with the little one last night, and then it was like five o'clock. I was planning on heading out around five o'clock or so, and uh, it was like 5 15 and I'm laying in bed and my my daughter started getting fussy and and stuff, and I'm like, I know my wife got just crap for sleep last night, right? So I feel I feel terrible. So I'm like, I'll just grab her and rock her for a while. Well, she friggin' she falls asleep and she's asleep till like 7 30. She's just passed right out because you know, she had a rough night too. And so then I'm like, I'm watching the weather on my watch, like as I'm rocking her, you know, and and I like see the rain coming, and I'm like, dang it, I wanted to get my run in before the rain came. And then I just I did not want to leave the house. I looked at the thermometer, it's 39 degrees out and like steady, solid rain, and it's like pretty cold rain, you know. Yeah, it's like man, I don't want to go out there. So what I did, and I I mean I know I didn't sleep good last night, and usually like my heart rate really like isn't isn't that great for my pace when I sleep bad, and I like it really just pisses me off sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

I'm the same.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

So I just took my raincoat and I put it over my watch and like put the velcro on. So I I'm like, I'm not even looking at my watch. I'm just gonna go run. It's gonna be fine. And it actually, I think that mentally for me like helped a lot. Like if I if I start getting fixated on numbers, you know, like what's my pace, what's my heart rate, things like that. It makes it takes like a slightly bad run to a terrible run mentally for me. So if I just ignore that stuff, I feel like I get out of that funk a lot faster. And I'm just like, whatever, I'm outside running, like and and actually my pace ended up being pretty decent for for me. So yeah, it I it actually worked out pretty well.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

No, I I could relate to that too, because it's I I'm a big fan of like uh you know running the right heart rate zones and and for the most part. I think it's a good which I've recently gotten a coach, so and I think it's a good tool. Um, I used to rely on it a lot. I used to try to be perfect and stay in like every zone and never go above. And I've I've kind of tried to base my runs off feel a little bit more than heart rate zones. I also live in a very hilly, like hilly city, so it's just I just constantly run like up and down hills. So my heart heart rate's gonna kind of fluctuate with that too. Yeah, so but I can relate with where you're saying, hey, I got bad sleep, my heart rate's higher, but I'm actually going slow, so it should be lower. And then it's just yeah. So I think what you said, like for those type of runs, not really having like an expectation is kind of helpful and just getting through it and having a good mindset with it.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

So one of the questions I had, um, you you kind of touched on it a little bit, but like getting into the high rocks, did that come uh from the the gym that you were working at? Like how did you how did you hear about that and get into that?

SPEAKER_04 15:52

Um one of my buddies from college actually, um he first like brought it onto my radar. And I thought it was pretty cool because like I said, I I've kind of always just in general like like lifting heavy. Um ever since I got into running, I've tried keeping my strength the best I can. I definitely, the more I get deeper into running, the harder it is, I would say, to lift as heavy as I would like. But um I think high rocks is kind of a perfect blend for me because it definitely like uh you need a good amount of endurance as well as strength. So it's just like a fun. I'm a competitor, like I said, growing up being an athlete, um, playing baseball. I just like to compete. And high rocks is another, you know, activity, another competition that I can do to compete. And it kind of just blends in with what I already do. Um it's fun too. Like I've gone my like people in my work into it. Um living in Austin, there's one in Dallas and there's one in Houston, so it's pretty close that I could kind of just go to, and it's a pretty, pretty simple trip. So, but now as this year, as I kind of evolve as an endurance athlete, um I'm getting deeper into high rocks. So I would like I have some I my plan is to do like three or four this the end of this year. So I really want to try to put a little more emphasis in high rocks after my half marathon.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Okay. So I probably should have asked this before. I've seen high rocks. Um, I've seen videos of people doing it, uh, but I feel like it's a for me anyways, it was a fairly unknown thing. Like I've just seen some videos of dudes doing frog jumps and burpees and running and pull-ups, right? So, like, can you just walk us through like what an event is? Is it a is it um is every event the same exact like duration and and distance as far as like the weights and the number squats you have to do and and everything like that? Are they all the same? Um, and what are those different events and what are the different like challenges that you face through through one of those competitions?

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Yeah, so there's um there's a bunch of different categories. So the um the stations all stay the same. So there's for men's, there's like a men's open and a men's pro. And those two events have different weights. The men's pro is a little heavier than the men's open. The women's have a women's open and a women's pro, and it's the same same way. The women's pro is a little heavier. Um they have mixed doubles, and then they have doubles, they have relays, and I want to say that's it. But what but what the events are is you have eight different stations, and before each station, you have uh a one kilometer run, which is comes out to about 0.62 miles. So you do a kilometer run, you have a thousand meters on the skier, you do another run, you have I think two hundred meters of a sled push, another run, two hundred meters of a sled pull, another run, burpee broad jumps. I want to say that's eighty to a hundred meters, then you have another run, a thousand meter row, another run, I want to say it's walking lunges, another run, um farmer carries, and I believe the farmer carries are 200 meters, and then one more run, and then you have wall balls, a hundred wall balls to finish it off, which is just brutal.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

It's a hundred of those.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

Yeah, it's brutal.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

I saw I saw you one of your Instagram reels, I saw you doing that. I was like, I wonder how many of those I have to do. I was actually wondering that.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Yeah, it's a hundred. So it's like, I mean, it's you definitely run half the time. So if you're an endurance athlete or if you've ran a lot for a long time and you don't have much of a strength background, you'll do fairly well because even throughout all the exercises, your heart rate's just so high. So the better you are like aerobically, pretty much, the better off you'll do. But it's just, yeah, it's growing. It's like for me, it's like your heart rate's just jacked the entire time. You're you're having to like push a heavy sled, do walking lunges. Um, but it's fun. It's like, it's fun, it stays the same. Um, anybody can do it. Like it does, it's not like CrossFit, and I think that's where people kind of uh like what's the difference between high rocks and CrossFit? It's like CrossFit's a little more skillful where you have to do Olympic lifting. It's a little harder to get into, and I think high rocks, the movements are fairly simple, but it's just like doing those movements under fatigue over and over is what's pretty difficult about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Gotcha. So what's a like what's a decent time? Like say like the equivalent, and I've obviously not holding you anything here. So this is just a random lit-up number. Yeah. But like the equivalent of like a four-hour marathon. Like you're just an average Joe. Yeah. And it's a good time for like a average Joe just getting into it, but like, you know, nothing, nothing that's blowing the doors off. Like what what time time distance are we talking about?

SPEAKER_04 21:14

I would say probably like an hour and 20 to an hour and 30 minutes is roughly. I I know like, so here's for some reference. They just had like the world championships, and these are the pro, this is like in the pro division, and the the winner of the pro division for like worlds got 51 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

So it's almost like how the three the three the sub three hour marathons like a big deal and brand new marathons. I would say like going an going sub an hour, going sub 60 in a high rocks is what everybody wants to do. However, it's definitely not the same, same uh percentage of people. I could run a sub three marathon. And my best time's an hour seven and like forty something.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

So I w I want to try to get down to like below like a 62, 63 this year, and maybe try to go like sub one hour.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

But it's tough.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Sounds fun. I'm gonna have to try it now.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

It's fun. It's fun. And they're all over the country, which is really cool too.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

So I'm gonna I'm gonna have to look for one. My my I got my goals kind of laid out for this year, but I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to get one of those on the books at some point and try it out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Yeah, they're they're a fun time.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

It looks pretty fun. Um so you already mentioned a little bit of the running and lifting, right? And and the deeper you get into running, maybe you're not doing as much as you want to and lifting. Um so how do you find they complement each other or detract from each other? How do you prioritize one over the other? Like just for you personally, how do you balance the those two aspects of your fitness?

SPEAKER_04 23:03

Yeah, that's a good question. Um definitely helps having a coach because I would like to think that I could do everything, but I just like that I want to do, but I can't. So I really do have to prioritize it. And I have to continuously tell myself that running's my priority right now, and I want to become a better runner. So, in order for me to become a better runner, I'm gonna have to cut back on lifting as heavy as I would like to do. And what my coach says, and what I always try to remember, is that I lift to run. I don't run to lift. So, like lifting should be helping my running. It shouldn't be hurting it. So the way I prioritize that is doing a lot of I still squat and deadlift. I try to keep those relatively heavy, but I just do a lot more running type exercises where I'm, you know, make making sure like a lot of activation exercises, I'm strengthening my calves, I'm doing a lot of single-legged exercises, um, doing a lot of balance exercises. And I think, especially for runners or people who are um adding mileage to their weekly, their weekly miles, I think that's where it becomes really important because kind of the more stress you put on your tendons, your muscles, your body's got to be strong enough to put up with all of the stress. So I think that's where lifting and strength training, and even for me, it's it benefits me that I already have that background because I am I already have pretty strong like legs, my tendons, and everything's pretty strong. So I am able to, I I would think, add mileage, like uh, I don't want to say easier than the average person, but it just it helps having a strength background because my legs are just strong enough. So, but it is tough prioritizing it because I've always like uh I don't know, maybe it's just a weird guy thing, but I just like want to lift a bunch of weight. And I I want to try to do both, but I'm starting to become a little more mature in it where it's uh I want it to help me and not hurt me.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Right. Oh, it's totally a guy thing. I know like 100%. Like 100%. I don't know what it is, but like you just want to put more on there. Like every single time you lift something, you're like, I could I could throw another five pounds on there, like I could throw another 10 pounds on there, you know? I know. Yep, it's definitely the way we're wired. So when you're trying to prioritize running, um do you run and lift on the same days, or do you try to schedule, like, okay, this is gonna be a rest day from running, but I'm gonna go lift and vice versa. How do you structure that?

SPEAKER_04 25:47

So I usually do my lower body lifts on days that I have speed work.

unknown 25:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Because I I think like the rule of thumb with that is like you want to keep all your hard days hard and your easy days easy. So like I'm already stressed out my body, my legs are already a little fatigued doing a good like a hard speed workout. So then I'll just do my my leg workouts on those days as well. Um, so that definitely helps. Um and yeah, it it's uh it's been I don't want to say it's been hard. It's been uh I lift pretty much three to four times a week. Two two days are upper body, two days our lower body. I usually do my lower body days on a Tuesday, which I have a workout, and then Saturdays, which are my long run days. Okay. And then I'll do my upper body days on Mondays and Fridays. So like my Wednesdays and Thursdays are fairly easy.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Okay. Awesome. Sorry, I was just looking at my notes for a second there. But um So what do you do do you take any days off? Do you take rest days after your hard days? Do you just try to take an easy day and do like a recovery pace after a hard day? Like how do you try to let your body bounce back a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 27:07

So as of late, um I'm currently ran 20 straight days in a row. And that's like the most I've ran pretty much throughout my running journey consecutively, like while I'm building up for something. Um typically in the past, I took Thursdays and Sundays off. As of late, I've been running every day as I'm building up to um I'm running the San Diego Rock and Roll Half Marathon, May 31st. So that's pretty much what I'm that's what I'm training for right now. So my coach has me on a pretty, for me, I feel like an intense training plan where um I'll just kind of go through it. Mondays are like a medium long run day. So Monday will be on, I'll just say this past week, which is actually the the the most miles I've ever ran in a week this past week. So Monday was a medium long run day, which was 12 miles. Tuesday was a speed workout day, and it was a double day. So I had a 10 and a half mile speed workout day in the morning, and then I had five easy miles in the afternoon. Wednesday was a six-mile easy run, and that was like a recovery run where I was just jogging, like taking it super easy. Thursday I had a 12-mile speed run as well. Um Friday I had eight miles at an easy pace, which I ran those a little harder. Saturday, yesterday, I had a 15-mile long run. And then today I had 16 miles easy, where I was like just jogging. So usually after like usually as of late, Wednesdays and Sundays have been like my recovery runs, and I've been just trying to take those really, really easy, and that came out to like 74 and a half miles. So that was like most I've ever ran in a week to date, and I'm my legs actually feel really good. So it's uh Oh, that's good. Yeah, it it's it's actually surprisingly it surprises me that my legs actually relatively feel good. So I have actually a down week this week coming up, which will be 60 miles, and I'll take a Sunday off next week. So that'll be that'll be nice. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

So I think that leads perfectly into the nutrition question because now I got a bunch of nutrition and and questions like that. Yeah. Um, and like I said, obviously you work for Heart and Soil, so I feel like we got to get into that.

SPEAKER_04 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Um So basically, what's your what first of all, I'd like to know what what do you do at Heart and Soil? What's your job? What do you, what do you, what's your role there?

SPEAKER_04 29:53

So at Heart and Soil, I'm on the customer experience team. So pretty much like customer support, um, kind of looking at customer issues, just kind of trying to enhance the customer experience overall. Um started out there, it's coming up on three years in June. Um, started a customer support, and I'm kind of trying to work my way up to like more customer experience where we're kind of looking into the more details of how customers come to our site, why they come to our site, like how to keep them around, kind of. So um it's been awesome working there. I've learned so much, and we have great people that work there that for like these nutrition questions that like you're probably gonna ask me, I ask everybody the same questions there. So it's like we just have a lot of we have a lot of people there that are a lot smarter than I am when it comes to all this stuff. So it's like awesome to just bounce ideas off of everybody, and it's just such a great environment.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, it seems I I uh I follow Heart and Soil on Instagram, so I see I don't know who does the socials, but like somebody always walks around and like asks everybody random questions and like it see uh like it looks like a fun place to work. It looks like everybody's just like kind of you know pretty chill and happy, and you know what I mean? It it looks like a good work environment, so that's cool.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah. So were you? I mean, well, first of all, I think for for the people who don't know, I've um like I've I uh read actually if I ever say I read a book, I'd probably listen to it on how to buy. So when I say read, I listened. Uh but I listened to uh Paul Saladino's book, The The Carnivore Code. Um and so I've I've kind of got a decent exposure to the to the animal-based carnivore, keto, like all of those types of things. My dad and brother are like really, really into it. My dad um has noticed really for him, it's been mostly for joint pain. Like um, he gets a lot of joint pain, especially in his hands and stuff. Um, he's worked harder than probably most people that are alive today his entire life. And uh and so his his hands, his knees get to him, and he's noticed that like cutting out carbs, like riff refined carbs has really helped him. So he's he's been um very, I guess you'd call it animal-based, but pretty close to carnivore, you know, for for a couple years, and he really notices that that um just helps him feel better in general. Uh but for the audience who doesn't know, could you go into a little bit about what being animal-based means and your journey into animal-based, right? Like I don't think anybody 15 years ago would have said, hey, I eat animal-based, right? Like it was just it just wasn't a thing back then. So um, I'm assuming you came into it, you know, at some point along your journey. So if you can just kind of tell us what it is and then how you got into it, that would be great.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

Yeah, I think animal-based, especially now and on the internet, and uh there's just a lot of information out there about it. And it's I think a lot of people have a lot of different opinions about it. But I think it's actually very simple. I think it's if you kind of break it down, it's just eating how our ancestors once ate and kind of what what we all had access to at one point. Um, and if you kind of dive a little bit deeper into that, I know Paul talks about this a lot, but from an organ perspective, um a lot of people have, you know, chronic we're on like a state of chronic disease. Um a lot of people are sick, and it it just um we kind of have to go back to once we what we once did. And I know Paul kind of mentioned this in one of his books, or even just in general, how if you go back to tribes now that that they live kind of they eat the whole animal, they they live how we all once lived. And I think um a lot of the processed foods that we consume now kind of contribute to a lot of diseases that we have now. And I think being on an animal-based diet or living the animal-based lifestyle is cutting all of the processed foods out and going back to almost the basics of hey, what could you find in in nature, what's not processed, and starting there. And there's I think this is where people get confused because there's it's different for everybody. It's like running's different for everybody. Like me and you aren't gonna run the same, I'm not gonna run as the same, like everybody's kind everybody's different. So I think it's a great place to start where where it's you know, you're prioritizing animal foods, you're prioritizing meat, you're prioritizing organs, you're prioritizing animal fats, and then you're prioritizing fruit. Um, and I think Dr. Paul's stance on this is I'm not a doctor, so I'm not gonna be able to give you the greatest explanation, but that there's some there's some vegetables out there that have defense chemicals, plant defense chemicals in them that if you're a person that's maybe it could affect people in different ways and negatively. So I think starting off with plants that are shown or foods that are shown to kind of have not those effects on people is a great place to start. And, you know, some people are more sick than others, and some people have different issues than others, where some people may need to go carnivore and keto, or some people can eat an animal-based diet perfectly and have no issues, or some people could even eat rice and bread and not have any issues. So I think it's I mean, just so similar to running, you gotta listen to your body, you gotta know your body. And um, but that's the greatest thing about heart and soul is that like we have a health success team. We provide so much information, like Paul's a great resource, obviously, for all this. So I think it's um it sounds very confusing, and even like having a lot of customers that reach out to us, it's a lot of oh, should I not eat this? Should I not eat that? Should I cut this out? Do I have to cut this out? And I think it's like uh it's just making it very simple. And I think that's where some people could get a little confused, but um yeah, it's it's it's been awesome.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah. So I to put my two cents in, I'm a I'm Christian, I believe in in the the Bible, I believe in creation, I believe that God made us. Um and I've always said like it's you'd have to kind of know my dad and my brother, they're very like when they get on a topic, they like go deep. They go really deep, right? So like both of them have gone through different phases, especially with like diets and food, and they'll get like real focused on stuff, right? And they'll get like, like, you can't eat that, it's gonna kill you. You gotta eat this, it's the best thing in the world for you. You gotta do this. And it's like, and I've always just been like, guys, if God made it, it's probably fine. Like if it existed 150 years ago, it's probably fine. If it only came into existence after the Industrial Revolution, it might not be fine. Yeah, that's that's that's so valid. That's kind of my take on it. I read a there's again, listen to, uh, but there's another book by this guy, uh Dr. Mark Hyman. I don't know if you ever heard of him. Uh-huh. Uh like he wrote this book called The Pegan Diet. Um, and it's uh the Pegan is like a mix between paleo and vegan, because I guess he was in a debate with a paleo guy and a vegan guy, and he was like, Well, I agree with like half of what you're saying and half of what you're saying, so I guess I'm a pegan. Right. And um, so I listened to his book and he he broke it down like really deep. And it you it was the first time anyone kind of put some like scientific information behind that like gut feeling that I had, right? That like if God made it, it's probably fine for us. And one of the things he talked about a lot, like I think, I think he even has a website that's something to do with like food is our far is your pharmacy or something like that. Like, um, and he really breaks down, he's like, you know, people look at like try to isolate like this chemical and that chemical, and what does this chemical do to your body? And oh, this can cause this to get elevated, and this can cause this to go down, and all of that stuff. But he was like, he really broke down the science. Um, and just like you said, I'm not a doctor, so like I I'm I I'm not even gonna try to get into any of the like detailed science, but basically, like he would break down like, okay, so like let's say you eat like a piece of steak or uh a piece of lettuce. The steak might have some things in it that in higher concentrations are not good for you, or maybe some people shouldn't have too much of that, right? And same thing with the lettuce, like maybe it has too many oxalates in it and it's gonna lead to oxidative stress for some people. But he's like, the thing that you don't realize is the plant and the animal also have genetics embedded in them, they have their own DNA and it will actually signal your cells to do different things. So, anyways, like if I understand his thesis correctly, basically, if you eat a balanced diet of natural, whole, unprocessed foods, he was like, almost regardless of what the diet is, if if it's fairly well balanced and that's all you're consuming, he's like, there's so many different things you can eat where, like, yes, this might have this one chemical in it that's not good for you if you eat too much of it, but like this food over here has this other genetic sequencing that actually negates that or like tells your cells how to deal with that other thing. Um, and I found that like really encouraging because it was just kind of like, okay, I don't have to think about like, like you said, like it's so granular. And I'm sure people are just trying to be like, all right, you know, I've listened to this and I believe this way of eating is the best, but like, does this count? Is this this is a gray area? Like, am I allowed to have this? Can I not have that? Like, is this gonna like kick me out of keto for 25 minutes? Uh you know what I mean? Like a lot of that type of stuff. And um, like, like he got really deep in the science, so I wouldn't say it was simple book, but like it simplified how I look at food for myself, you know what I mean? So that I thought was was really handy. Um so so am I right to assume that you would you eat an animal-based diet? Is that kind of how you try to go about it as much as you can?

SPEAKER_04 40:47

I and I think what you said, like it definitely made me think that I would, I would think, at least for myself, when I first started eating animal-based, which I would say I know you asked this question too. I started kind of with a paleo diet. My sister is always kind of what drove me and my family's health thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

It's always the siblings, isn't it? So there's always one sibling.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

Always, always. Uh she she's she's so much smarter than all of us, so we I gotta thank her. But um, I probably started in like 2019, 2018, 2020. I mean, growing up playing baseball, I've always kind of been conscious of like getting enough protein. Um, always love steak, always love chicken. So it's like that's never really been an issue. But it's when I heard Paul on Joe Rogan is when that kind of all clicked. And uh before that, I was like I said, doing paleo. I was following a guy called Chris Cresser, who's a functional like practitioner, and he kind of preaches like the paleo diet, and he's he's he's very knowledgeable in that too. So that's kind of what got me down that a little bit. But then hearing Paul, and I'm sure you've heard Paul talk where he just speaks and and he explains everything in great detail. And it and that's what kind of clicked for me. Um, so ever since then, I would definitely say when I first started, and even when I first started at Heart and Soil, I would say I was a lot more strict. A whole lot more strict. And now I think what you said, like having the bounce, it's a lot more where it's like, hey, it's almost like I I go back to running with everything, but it's like, hey, if if like 80 per 80% of the time you like everything's good, 20% of the time it's it's not greater, 90-10, whatever you want. Like, as long as like you're conscious about what you're putting into your body and you're prioritizing healthy foods most of the time, I would say you're doing better than 99% of people.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah, for sure. So one of the things that I've been because I've I definitely lean towards the the animal-based carnivore-ish side of the spectrum. Um, I try not to get too granular with it, and I try not to get too shook up one way or the other. Um like my wife does sourdough. She makes sourdough. We got we got starter on the counter out there, and there's always there's always sourdough around. But it's it's real act, like literally three, it's it's flour, water, salt, three ingredients. That's it. It's the only thing in it. So um, you know, I probably eat more of that than most any animal-based person or carnivore-ish person would would, you know, agree with. Um, but like one of the things I'm trying to balance now as I'm growing a little bit more as a runner, and now I'm just starting to get to the point where I'm I'm starting building my miles up a little bit every week, you know. Um I definitely I I hesitate to say like I I'm starting to be more of a runner because I you know I I get a I get the imposter syndrome pretty bad. I like I feel like I'm not a runner, you know. I get it, I get it. Um but I'm just getting to where I'm like consistently over 20 miles a week. That's so um super so like last week was like 23 miles, 22 miles. Um this week starting off good, so we'll see where where we end up. But I'm I'm trying to be right around those like mid-20s for now. Um make sure my legs feel okay because training for the half marathon, I pushed myself too hard and I built the miles too fast, and I jacked up that knee that I hyperextended a little bit. So I took a couple weeks off after that, and now I'm just trying to really do, you know, a lot of a lot of easier runs, a lot of zone two runs, and build build the foundation up. But I'm I'm getting to the point where doing that is leading to 20 plus miles a week. You know, at first it was just like I would just try to stay in zone two for 30, 40 minutes. I was actually focusing more on time than miles. And that's good. And then like zone two's pace kind of started creeping up, right? Like I could keep my heart rate in that zone two range, and the pace was getting a little bit better. Like at first, it was so bad. It was like 14, 15 a mile, I think, to keep my heart rate in zone two, right? And now I can get like down in the like mid 11s, like 11:30, 1140.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

So that's like that's really encouraging. So like I've been doing basically the same amount of time, but obviously the demands of my body are growing. Um, and one of the things that I'm trying to figure out for myself that I'm trying to work through is like I know my body needs healthy fats. Um, I a hundred percent believe like everything Paul says, especially about um uh cholesterol and everything, and like saturated fats got demonized for no reason, and it's a bunch of BS. And I'd even before I read Paul's book or even heard of him, I'd listen to some other people, and it's just total nonsense. Like, your body needs some fats about your body needs protein, your body needs saturated fats, um, all that type of stuff. But then for running and fueling running, I find that I do need more carbs. So I'm trying to get more carbs, and we live in a world where there's a lot of carbs, and most of them are carbage, right? Like most of them are total bullshit. So it's like I'm trying to get carbs, and the easiest way to get carbs is like, oh, I'll get like a stinger waffle, or I'll get like a gel, or I'll get, you know, whatever. Like there's all these like super ultra processed versions of carbs, and I don't want to go that route, but they are convenient and they make life easy to get carbs in. So for you, as you build your miles and you kind of evolve as a runner and evolve your diet a little bit kind of at the same time, what are you finding that works, doesn't work? Kind of where do you, where do you prioritize carbs? Where do you try to get the carbs from? All of all of that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

Yeah, you know, that's a great question. And I think kind of like I mentioned this, everybody, every body is different. So there's some people who can, you know, do heavy, heavy lifting, heavy endurance, and get away with eating more fat. And then there's some people who need more carbohydrates. Um, I like to look at runner, people who are doing what I want to do at a really high level. And I kind of go off them, and or I kind of get my ideas off them, and also bouncing that exact question that you just asked me, I bounce that off a lot of people at work and kind of get their opinion, their thoughts on it. For me, I've noticed what I know is that running is very stressful on your body. It I think it produces a lot of cortisol. I could be wrong, someone could tell me I'm wrong, but I know I'm sure the internet will comment. The more the more stress you have, I think the more cortisol you produce. And I know carbs bring cortisol down. And not only do they bring cortisol down, but I know they help fuel your body, especially for running. That's usually the main source of energy. So for me, I mean, I consume around 3,800 to 4,000 calories a day, and about 500 of 500, I consume about probably 500 to 600 grams of carbs every day. So I eat a lot of carbohydrates. And that comes from juice, like fresh squeezed juice, orange juice, maple syrup, honey, fruit. Um, I'm huge into sourdough too. I know from an animal-based standpoint, it's kind of controversial, but if I think the rule of thumb with that is is A, if there's no seed oils in it, and then if you can make it yourself. So that's like a huge win. And then I also eat rice. So those are pretty much my ra my main sources of carbohydrates. And I've noticed for me, I would say one of the biggest recovery tools besides sleeping for any endurance athlete is fueling. And if you're underfueled, your runs, your body's just not going to feel the same. You're not gonna sleep as good, your body's not gonna repair it as good. Um, your body's gonna be more in a state of stress because it just doesn't have enough fuel. So that's one thing over the last probably three months that I've really, really emphasized. I started actually tracking my macros. I never tracked my macros before. And as of the last three months, I've noticed that like if I don't track them, I don't eat enough. And then I wake up the next day not feeling great. My I don't have energy on my runs. Um so it's something that I've noticed for me that um really helps me. And like I said, if you're you kind of have to go back to what your priorities are. If it's almost like if I wanna lift a lot of weights and I run a run a lot, but I want to be a really good runner, one of those is gonna take priority. And it's kind of the same thing with eating and running, and I don't want to say you can't eat perfect, but if you're running a lot of miles, it's it is very hard to consume to eat a lot of healthy food, if that makes sense. So um you kind of have to pick your priority where it's like, and I know like if you've listened to like a lot of top marathoners or a lot of top runners talk about this, it's like any type of fuel is better than no fuel. So I don't I'm not gonna promote somebody to eat McDonald's, but if you're a runner or you're like a high, high-level athlete, and that's the only type of food that you could get in for that day, that's better than not eating for your body because your your body needs calories, your body needs fuel to recover, to repair, and then to be like at its best the next day. However, I do try to obviously prioritize animal-based foods. Um, but yeah, you know, it's just hard to eat a lot of food sometimes. And yeah, especially, especially running a lot. Um, like I said, if you do, like when you do start running a lot, your body is kind of in a heightened level of stress. And it's not always easy to eat that much and that type of response either. But um, like for me, what's helped, I think this was in the email that went out with Heart and Soul is like Greek yogurt bowls are like my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

It's like super easy. You can add maple syrup in there and some animal-based protein. Um, and it's just like a nice, easy meal that you could get down. It's easy on digestion. You get a bunch of protein, you get a good amount of carbohydrates. So, um, and I think you know, everybody like you should uh try everything, like see what works best for you. Like I said, people are going to have different responses. So it's like you there's I'm sure there's some athletes out there that say, like, hey, I could be in keto and I could go run a hundred miles. And then there's some that do it by eating 600 grams of carbohydrates a day. So it's like I think it all depends on the person. Um, and just like listening to your body, I think is the best feedback because I would say you know your body better than anybody. Um but yeah, it's just it's it's a fun game. It's like trying to optimize yourself, trying to get better, and just I think not being too hard on yourself and listening to yourself and really just giving your body what it wants is gonna like set you up for success.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Yeah, that's a perfect way to word it. It's a fun game. One of the things uh, because so it's it's funny, like, because again, I feel like like I'm not anywhere near like pushing myself the way like a lot of the people I look at on social media are, you know, like um like I don't you know, Andy Glaze, the ultra runner.

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Yeah, that guy runs like a hundred miles every week.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

A hundred miles a week for over six years now. Yeah, that's crazy. I know it's like nuts, dude. But like I've I want to get into ultra running at some point, you know. Like that's um my buddy that that texted me when I was starting to run again. You know, he really kind of lit the fire under me uh with this run. We're gonna do we're gonna do the 20 miler. Um they have a 20-mile, 50 mile, and 100 mile option.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

That'd be f that'll be fun.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

And uh yeah, they won't let me. I'm I'm I don't think I'd be ready for the 50 anyways, but they won't let you go past the 20 unless you've done a similar type race of at least 20 in the last I think 18 months or something like that. They want to know that you can handle it, you know. Um I'm like, whatever, that's we'll start with 20. That's uh that's a very good target for me.

SPEAKER_04 54:03

Oh yeah, that's solid.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

Um but anyway, like I, you know, I want to go past that. I want to do like a 50k and a 50 mile eventually. Like I want to I want to kind of build up to maybe someday doing a hundred mile or if I ever feel ready for it. But so I've been look watching a lot of those types of people, right? Like um uh Dan Roach, uh there's or sorry, David Roach, David Goggins, uh Courtney DeWalter, Cam Haynes, like all these people that are like big and ultra running, right? Uh-huh. And like, dude, a lot of them are just just pounding whatever they can pound, like in a race. Like you'll see them at aid stations, and they're just like, they're throwing down Coca-Cola's and Snickers bars and potato chips, like because they're just trying to get as many calories as they can in their body as fast as they can. And it's like, it's like breaking my mind a little bit because they're like, they're like some of the healthiest, fittest people on earth. I know. Right? But they're eating like a dumpster kind of. So it's like, um, yeah, it's just it's it's hard. And then like I notice for me, like I'll run, you know, they're running, they're running 80 miles in a day, right? Like crazy stuff. Um, I think I think Courtney DeWalter said she's trying to get um on her long runs, she tries to get like over a hundred grams of carbs an hour.

SPEAKER_04 55:20

Yeah, that's that's tough too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Yeah. So it's like gels, juice, drinks, like she's like just drinking sugar water basically, trying to get enough carbs in, right? And uh like I try not to let that stuff affect me, but it's hard because obviously we all want to eat candy bars, right? Like they're yummy, they're good. So it's like, you know, I go for a five-mile run in the morning and then I my my subconscious starts justifying eating a bunch of junk food after, which I know I'm like shouldn't be doing, but that is one thing that I find difficult. But I'm I'm doing a lot of the same things you are. It's kind of kind of interesting. Um, I do a lot of rice. I still, like I said, I'm I try to be mostly animal-based.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Um, do a lot of sourdough, do a lot of rice, do a lot of fruit. Um, and I do honey. I love honey.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Oh, I love honey too.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

That's like that's like my favorite thing. And um I I have to travel for work, so I've got I got a cooler and um normally we have like a gallon of raw honey at home that we get from this local main bee farm. Um, and then I just I got like one of the little like squirt bottles uh to take with me in the hotel. I just fill it up and take it with me in my cooler. And like in the morning before I go for a run, I'll just like uh just like drink. Perfect, basically. And then perfect. And then go for a run. But um one of the things I wanted to touch on that's that's challenging for me personally, uh, and I'm curious how you deal with it. Uh my work schedule, so I typically work uh seven to five. That's that's a normal day. Like we normally do 10 hours a day. Um so we normally try to be on the job site working by seven. And so I usually get up at 4.30 is my normal uh during the week. On the weekends, I um don't set an alarm, I just get up whenever. Um but yeah, so I normally get up at 4.30 and I try to just get my run in as fast as I possibly can. Because like by the time you go to the bathroom, get your gear on, stretch a little bit, do a little bit of a warm-up, go for a run. Even if I only run like 40 minutes, get back, do a stretch, shower, like I'm automatically 10 minutes late for work. Like all the time. Like it's so hard to get it all in in time, you know? And um, so I'm curious. I know you mentioned that you typically do your m runs early in the morning, um, especially for the longer runs. You know, if if I'm doing like three or four miles, it's not a big deal. But if I'm trying to do, I find like for me personally, a 10K like that five, six mile mark is kind of the break point where it's like, okay, doing this fasted is tough. And like I feel it, you know what I mean? I can I can feel my energy levels, like I need to do something if I'm gonna go more than five or six miles. I need something before I run. But it's like the physical act of eating, like right when you get up that early in the morning, is difficult. And then the time, if you're gonna do anything, like is difficult. So it's like a lot of times for me, it's just a banana with a little bit of honey.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

What are you doing, especially in those early morning runs, to try to get something in your body before you go for your run?

SPEAKER_04 58:35

I'm not saying it's bad to run fasted, but I think you kind of just put your body in a deficit from a calorie standpoint. And I just think your body will recover and repair better if it's not in a deficit like that. But like I would say, most if it's if it's less than 10 miles, I usually don't bring anything with me. And I could pretty much run 10 miles fasted. And usually what I do, I have three dogs too. So usually what I'll do is like I'll run what however many I have, and I'll usually come get my dogs for the last two. So say if I have like 10 miles that day, then I'll run eight miles, and then I'll get my dogs for the last two and come home. So usually maybe within like the time I come home and pick them up, I'll have something. But what I've been doing, I've been trying to eat a I've been trying to be better at eating. So what I've been doing is before my long runs, I'll usually have like a piece of sourdough bread, cream cheese, and jelly. I feel like that's like a great mixture because it has just a little bit of fat, um, a good amount of carbohydrates, it's relatively easy on your digestion. Um, and then usually for my long runs or even my speed workouts, I'll just bring some gels with me. So usually if I have like say for example, this past this past week when I had a 10 and a half mile speed workout, the whole thing wasn't a speed workout. It was like a two-mile warm-up, but then I had what did I do? I had eight, I had 800 meter intervals. So what I'll do is I'll have like a gel at like mile five, and I'll also have a water bottle with me that has coconut water and um tailwind, which is pretty much just sugar water.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

So that's what Corny Balder uses. She's sponsored by Tailwind, so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:35

Yeah, I I I like Tailwind. So with the tailwind drink, that comes out to about 40 grams of carbohydrates, and then the gel will be about 25. So that's like what is it, 65 grams of carbohydrates for the for that session, which relativ like gets me through it pretty well. Again, I think that's one of those those scenarios where it depends on the person. And I know some people have to eat a lot more. Some people can do fasted. Um I would I would think if you are like worried about like, you know, you don't want to eat too much. I think like a banana and honey is like the best way to go. Um, I'm trying to think if there's anything that's a little easier on digestion, maybe like juice. If if juice was easy to get in, because I know juice is like just a bunch of carbohydrates. Um But you know, it's funny you asked me that because I'm actually just diving into this a little deeper now, and I'm and I'm trying to get I know if you I know the better fueled you are, the better runny you're gonna be. And then like for marathons or even half marathons, if you're not fueled properly, you're just not gonna be, you're not gonna perform like the way you want to perform. So I've really in my early runs and especially my long runs, I've been trying to focus on making sure I'm eating before having enough um fuel during my runs. But even then, it's like there's some runs where I think I fueled properly, and then you know, around like mile eight, I just start like I think like my blood sugar drops. I get super tired, and I have to call my girlfriend to come pick me up, and then she comes pick me up, I go home, crush some food real quick, and then go back on a run. So it's like it's it's one of the it's like again, it's just another fun game, and it's it's it's one of those things that I think I I like, even from listening to like top marathon runners, like that's always the biggest. That's one of the main things in marathon running, is like making sure your fuel is locked in. And it's just a lot of it's a race within the race, it's a battle within the battle of making sure you're fueled enough. But um I mean, me too, I wake up early. I wake up between probably like 3 45 and 4 o'clock every morning to do my runs, and it's not easy to eat sometimes. Um but I I try to just force it if I can because I know it's gonna benefit me. And if not, then I'll just bring like a couple gels with me on my run, and that usually kind of helps.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah. Yeah, this is this is something that I've been trying to figure out like what works for me. And I was listening to um the Nick Bear podcast together on SBPN.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

And um his coach that I think works for the company from what I can tell, they were talking about running fasted and stuff, and I was I was like kind of like just always running fast, just get up, get my shoes on, and everything as fast as I can go run. And um his coach was like, he was like, What do you say to people who say they like to run fasted? And he's like, Well, I try to be polite about it. So I tell them, you might think that you enjoy running fasted, but your body hates you for running fasted.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:56

I think I think it's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

And I was like, Yeah, he's probably right. Like, just you know, from a mechanical standpoint, right? Like, just if if you take all the all the biological stuff out of it, just think of any machine, right? Like, you gotta fuel it up to get it to go do something. You know, put fuel in the tank after the race is over. So yeah, I've been trying to get better at it, and I'm trying to find things that work for me. Um, the banana and the honey definitely seem to help. And I've messed with some gels trying to find ones I like. I like the honey-based gels because, like I said, I just like honey in general.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Um, and I feel like it's a little bit healthier option than all the words you can't pronounce, you know what I mean? So I like them, but the thing is, like, if your mouth's already dry in the middle of a run and you just slap some honey in there, it's it's tough.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

It's not fun at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

Yeah, it's tough to get down. So then it's like I've tried like the BPN go gels, I've tried the goo brand ones. Um, the goo brand ones, I don't they don't my stomach doesn't like them for whatever reason. I don't know. I don't know why, but they don't sit well with me. But they are super easy to get down. Like those are the BPN ones, they're much more liquid and way easier to get down. Um, so yeah, this is that's something that I'm like trying to work my way through. Yeah. Yeah, the tailwind. Go go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

I I was gonna say, like tailwind, if you if you if you've never tried that, like just bringing some like coconut water, coconut water I know could mess with people's stomach too, but like even just adding like some tailwind, or even just having water and adding like a little bit of maple syrup, I know that probably sounds weird, but like maple syrup, um what do we do at work sometimes? Like even adding like maple syrup, a little bit of lime juice and water, and some like electrolytes, like that could that could be helpful a little bit too.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

So yeah, that could be a good boost. I've been thinking about tailwind. I just heard about them like a couple weeks ago, and now of course they're on my Instagram feed like nonstop every day. So I'm like, maybe I should try it. But then I'm like, oh am I just falling for marketing again. I don't want to buy something. That I don't need. But yeah, it is super convenient. Yeah. It is. I've been using um you know Bobby Parrish, Flave City.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:12

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

Um him and him and Paul Saladino have actually done a couple like uh joint episodes, but he he started, I think he was a chef or a nutritionist originally, and he started on YouTube just going around the grocery store um and reading labels to people and just being like, oh, this is this is bad. Try to stay away from this. Here's another option that's actually healthy. And so he he uh his whole thing was like, oh, this is Bobby approved and give it a thumbs up. So like, you know, Bobby. Yeah. So I get his electrolyte mix, um, just because I know there's not going to be any garbage in it. Um I don't even I haven't even looked at what the actual electrolyte mix is as far as like magnesium, potassium, sodium, all I just I've just been getting it because I kind of trust him and and you know he's all about clean stuff. Um and that on my longer rounds, I know I normally take that with me on my longer rounds in that house, but it doesn't have any carbs in it. That's the one thing. It's just electrolytes.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

Um so yeah, maybe throwing that in with some syrup would be or something like that. Sweeten it up and get some carbs in there. That might be a a good option for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

Do you this is this is a question I have, uh, because I can't I don't like eating organs, man. I just don't like the flavor. Do you eat many organs, like actually eating organs, or do you rely mostly on the heart and soil supplements to get what you need?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:39

I would say it depends. I go through spurts with it. I love heart. Heart, to me, I don't know if you ever had heart, but heart heart tastes like steak. Okay. Like it tastes, it's so good. I could eat heart for like every meal and it would never, it would never go bad to me. Um, it would never get bad. Liver, I don't mind liver. I don't buy it all the time. I definitely rely on heart and soil for for that, even though I don't mind it. It's just uh it's just so convenient having heart and soil. I prefer eating heart over liver. I really like bone marrow. I could eat bone marrow all day long, too. It's and especially raw. It tastes just like butter. If you've never had bone marrow raw, it tastes like butter. Unreal. Put it like on your steak, just eat it. It put some salt on it, it's so good. Um testicle is actually very good. I've I would say I don't, I'm not uh I don't go and search for it enough, but like if someone brings it to work or we're like shooting content, uh like about eating testicle, it's it's very good. So I would say it's more of like uh I eat it when it's there. I definitely prioritize heart more than anything. But um, yeah, taking like I take whole package, I take joint strength and repair, I eat all of our protein powders. Um lifeblood's another big one I love too, especially for endurance runners. So um yeah, it's uh I know it's an acquired taste. I would definitely say that I mean that's one of the reasons Paul made hardened soil is because organs aren't the greatest thing to eat, and not everybody loves them, but there are some ways where you could prepare them to taste good. Um but yeah, hardened soil definitely definitely beats eating eating them over and over.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:34

Yeah, we uh we raised a couple cows and we slaughtered one uh last fall and I tried the liver. My brother likes it, so I was just like, whatever you can have a liver. I tried the liver and I just I did not like it. I just I don't know. It was just plain. We just fried up a little bit of it. And I was like, Yeah, no, not for me. Like I think I could probably like mix it up with some ground beef or something like that. It'd be all right. And then um he just two weeks, a week ago, two weeks ago, um slaughtered a little bull um because it was a pain in the butt and it was causing trouble. So it was really he really hadn't grown enough to to be slaughtered yet. He's got he got uh the T-bones are like they're like this big. They're like the small eyes, the ribeyes are like four-ounce ribeyes, they're like the smallest ribeyes you've ever seen. Um but he was just being a pest and he was uh breaking the fence constantly, and he was um related to all the cows. So he was the son of one and like the nephew of a bunch of others, and my brother doesn't have fencing enough to like separate all of them. So then he was he was trying to like cover the cows that he's related to, and we were like, well, that's can't have that. So he's in the freezer now. Um but my brother kept the the testicles and he he likes them, he's eaten them before.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:56

They're they're actually like I can't surprisingly pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

I can't get over the mental part. You can make like some they're they're not bad. Yeah. Oh, maybe I'll try a piece of it when he when he cooks them up. I just I get I get the whole package, so I'm like, I'm I got it. Yeah, we're we're good. I don't need to actually chop it up and eat it.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:20

Yeah, no, I get it. A lot of people are like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Yeah. So what protein uh supplements are you guys offering now? And uh another question I had that's kind of a little bit unrelated to running, but it's just something um I know Paul talks a lot about like his lineage brand stuff, and then you got the heart and soil stuff. Are the two companies related at all? Do you guys work together? Are they separate? Because I know you had like the lineage protein powder, but I was just wondering what the relationship is there.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:45

Yeah, you know, Paul's um lineage is separate than heart and soil, they're a separate company.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:52

I would say Paul is a little more hands-on with lineage, and he's a little more hands-off with heart and soil. So lineage is just another another business that he that he owned and founded. Um, I know from a protein perspective, like we have animal-based protein, which has um grass-fed whey collagen and colostrum in it. We have grass-fed whey unflavored, which is just grass-fed whey. And then we have grass-fed whey chocolate sea salt, which has grass-fed whey, um, organic cacao, maple sugar, and sea salt. And then Paul has AB complete, which has beef isolate protein, and has like a lot more other, I think it has colostrum and some like uh some fruit, like fruit powders in it. So it's a little more like uh an animal-based protein powder, if that makes sense. It has like all fruit and the beef isolate. So they're different, it's for different people, and it's kind of just depends what you want. But um, there's no like they're both different companies, and we get that question all the time because it yeah, defin definitely confuses people, and people are like, wait, so I thought you were I thought you were lineage or I thought you were hardened soil, so but yeah, they're different.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Okay. Yeah, I was just curious about that. Um, yeah, I've been I've actually been using um have you ever heard of perfect amino?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:22

I don't think so, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:24

So it's a I don't even know if you can call it a protein powder, but it is a protein powder. It's interesting. So I I heard about it on uh Gary Brecka's podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

And I guess this doctor that he's friends with, apparently he apparently he wrote a book. I haven't listened to it yet, but it's called um The Search for the Perfect Protein. I guess this guy spent like 20 years researching how your body uses protein, what it does with it, how it handles it when you eat different proteins. Um and so what he what he kind of found through his research is basically your body doesn't use protein when you eat protein. It takes the protein and breaks it into the amino acids that were building the protein and then uses those amino acids to build other protein in your body. So it so it basically breaks it down and distributes it and then uses those building blocks. So his thing was, well, why don't I just try to manufacture just the building blocks? So he so the perfect amino is all of the amino acids broken down in a way that I don't understand. Complicated, but supposedly it's the way it's similar to the way your body breaks it down. So it's supposed to be like 98 or 99% bioavailable amino acid that your body can then basically immediately use um as building blocks. And supposedly like your body actually uses 99% of it. So a big thing that they advertise uh and that and that he was talking about is that uh it's like say you take whey protein, your body by the by the time it breaks it down, digests everything, reuses it, and there's other things in that that aren't amino acids that your body's not going to use for the purposes of of amino acids that that get digested and other things happen to them and um maybe they have a higher caloric calorie content than you want or whatever. Um so with his he's saying like you actually use all of this. So if you have 30 grams of whey protein versus like five grams of this protein, your body actually gets the same benefit out of out of this. So I've been using that for about six months. Um and I like it. I it's so hard to tell if things are really working or not, because it's like I know it is you know, did you sleep well that night? It's like, oh, I feel pretty good. There's so many, I know you know, some weeks you feel good and some weeks you feel bad no matter what you're taking. So it's but I think overall, like I think I've been taking it long enough, and I've noticed, especially if I take it morning and night, um, I think it does help my recovery, and I think it helps my legs feel more ready to run again the next day if I take it. So I've been I've been liking that.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:20

Um are you are you able to consume like whey? Do you have like a dairy dairy?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

Yeah, no, I can I can eat anything. My body handles everything pretty well.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:30

Have you tried our protein before?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:32

I haven't. No, that's why I was just thinking about thinking about getting it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:36

I'll I'll get you one.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

All right.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:38

Just tell me we'll we'll we'll talk after.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:41

Yeah, oh yeah, we we can email or whatever. Yeah. Um but yeah, I going back, like I like that stuff and it works good, but then going back to did it exist 150 years ago? Well, it didn't. I know. Like not at all. Like people were eating whey for sure. Um 150 years ago, nobody was breaking down amino acids. So it's like, I don't know, is it a biohack that maybe is acceptable? Is it I don't know. Um I just the world's too confusing now.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:12

It's tough. It's like, I mean, that's like the same thing with like red lights or like comp compression boots or even like running shoes. Like, so it I I get what you're saying. I think if it's not if it's not hurting you and it's like helping you, I think I th I think it's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:33

Yeah. But yeah, it's just something that I uh I've actually been thinking about too. And I've actually been wanting to take colostrum.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

Um, and then the other thing is like, I mean, we talk about all these different supplements and and everything, right? But like there's a pretty real financial impact to it at the end of the day, too.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:51

There is.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

Um, you know, that that perfect amino stuff's not cheap. The the heart and soil stuff. I mean, um, and uh, and it's not a not a value comment at all. I think it's worth it, but it's not cheap either. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:03

It's not. No, it's not it's not like it'd be you know it'd be like I consume a lot, like especially we just came out with a new colostrum in the beginning of the year. And I think that's by far. I'm not on the research team. I've been around the research, people talk about this, but I would like put our colostrum up against any colostrum out there. And but it's not cheap. And if I didn't work at Heart and Soil, it'd be very hard for me to consume it on a daily basis. Yeah. But like you said, I I do one thing I love about heart and soil, and especially being behind the scenes of it, is like the integrity we have behind our products. Like, we're not just gonna put anything out there just because we think it's a good product because it sounds sounds good. Like we have a dedicated research team that looks into everything that if something's not right, we'll pull a product, or if something's not right, we won't launch a product until it's exactly as top-notch as as it can be. So that's like one of the one of the best things I've I've loved about working with Harden Soil is just like the integrity and like just how thoughtful all of our product launches are and how much like energy and research actually goes into like making each product as good as it can be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

Well, one of the things this is this is uh a little insight to the way I break things down because I'm always looking at like trying to filter through the marketing BS, you know, because like there's too much of that nowadays. And it's like, okay, is this just a stupid trendy thing? And like this company's just gonna chase whatever trend is around. And I mean, I don't think I don't think organ pills have ever been a trend in the history of trends. So it's like, okay, well, they're not just chasing random trends, you know what I mean? And that's yeah, like as silly as that is, that's actually one thing that did give me confidence to use heart and soil in the first place. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:02

Well, yeah, I think like like you said too, it's it's I think a lot of companies make claims, and it's like with organ products specifically, there's not a whole ton of research where you could claim that you can make claims with. However, there's a lot we're actually doing a lot of studies with this, but there's like a lot of just like if you go through our reviews, all the people that use it, it's like even Paul, I think it just kind of all speaks for itself. But like we're very, like kind of like I said, we're very thoughtful and careful of how because like I think that's the last thing, at least I could speak for heart and soul. Like, we're not gonna say something just to say it. We're not gonna say, hey, like, this is gonna fix this, like, like that's not how things work, especially I think in the animal-based diet. And I think that's actually another thing that people might misconstrue with an animal-based lifestyle, an animal-based diet, or even just like organ pills or anything in general, is that like it's not an easy fix. It's a lifestyle, it's a piece of the puzzle, it's something that you have to continuously do every day and also make other adjustments in your lifestyle to help you get healthier. So it's it's it's it's tough in today's day and age, especially how like, you know, you have social media, everything's such a quick fix.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:30

Everybody, I mean, think of running, everybody would love to be 20 times faster tomorrow. Everybody would love to be 20 times healthier tomorrow, and those things just take time. Yep. So you do get you gotta do the work. So it's a tough thing to kind of wrap your head around, but I think that's I mean, that's what we preach is like, hey, this is a lifestyle. And that's why we preach the lifestyle so hard, because it's not it's not just a quick, easy fix, and it's one of those things that like you should be working your whole life to kind of continuously get better at. So it it it's tough, but it's uh it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:08

One of the things I actually I mean, I've I've been taking the heart and soul stuff for a while. Um, like I said, I do the whole package and the and the joint repair. Um the thing that really like opened our eyes to it was um my wife Brie was following Paul on Instagram and uh seeing a lot of stuff he posted. And um when we had our first daughter, the the recovery from it, it just her hormones were a mess. It really drained her. Um she just didn't feel right for a while. Um and there's there's a bunch of it was it was a tough, tough birth. It wasn't it didn't go as planned, but uh but her uh her hands like she could she could tell like her hormones were imbalanced, like uh when everything was trying to get back to normal. She was like things just aren't right for whatever reason. And her hands started burning really bad, like she'd just be itching her knuckles like this all the time, like just constantly scratching her knuckles. Um and then she started taking the her package, and it like her hands literally overnight stopped itching. Like it was the weirdest thing. Um, and everything like kind of started getting back to normal and like regulated within like a month or two, and this was like six months after after birth, like she was still dealing with a lot of these stuff. Because I mean it it's a it's a rough process. If you haven't had kids, just just wait.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:38

It's a be ready to be imagined process, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

But um, but yeah, so it was a while after that. So it's not like it's not like you can say, well, you know, it would have happened anyways. Like it it had been a long enough period of time where this was going on, and and she started taking that, and it really helped her out a lot. And um, so then fast forward to our second daughter three years later, she was taking it right from the get-go. Recovery was way better. Um, her hormones and everything got kind of back to normal and regulated way, way faster. Um, and then she where did what happened? We went somewhere, I can't remember why, but for some reason she forgot it and didn't have it for like four or five days or something like that. Or maybe we went on vacation and she left the bottle somewhere. I can't I can't remember what happened, but she didn't have it for like four or five days. Um and it was probably four or five months after birth, somewhere around there. And her hands started itching again after like four or five days of not happen having it. And this is the second child now, not so it's years later, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:50

Um, and her hands started itching again, and then she took it. We we got it back, she took it, and it went away again, like literally the next day. Her hands didn't itch it's the weirdest thing. It's the weirdest thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:04

Yeah, we we we get a lot of reviews like that, especially. I mean, her package is like our most, I would say, like, quote unquote potent one. So like that definitely helps females who having hormonal issues, um, kind of all all along the lines of like female issues. But yeah, we we get some like crazy reviews where it's like uh people will take like like lifeblood or or or something or like something, and and it's just like something that like we've never really heard of before, and like wow, this helped this helped me with this. So it's just like it's awesome to hear that that her package really helped your wife like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

Yeah, it was so random. We were like, what the heck? This is bizarre. And then we actually just to test it, I think we did one more time. She went a couple days without it just to see, and the itchiness came back, and like as soon as she felt it, she took it again and it went away, and she was like, Okay, I'm not gonna stop taking it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:59

And if for whatever reason, for whatever was going on hormonally with her, once she was done breastfeeding, it it wasn't an issue anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:06

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:07

Um, so she doesn't take it as often now, just like I like I said, with the with the cost and everything, it's tough to keep stocked on everything that we want to have, you know. Um but she will like every once in a while if she's starting to feel like a little bit out of whack or you know, things just are a little rougher on her than normal, she'll she'll take it for like we have like a jar and a half, I think, in the in the pantry, and so she'll take it for a little while, kind of gets herself back on track and and um yeah, it's it's worked a lot. I notice like with the whole package and the and the joint repair, I don't notice anything that dramatic that I can point to. I just generally feel better. You know what I mean? It's just like everything it's not life changing, it's not like, oh my word, this made this go away or this made this change. It's just like everything's just a little bit better. Like my you know, my legs feel a little bit better, my sleep feels a little bit better, like everything in general goes up a little bit. So that's that's kind of my experience. But hers just really blew me away. I was like, holy cow, that's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:12

That's so that's so awesome to hear. That's uh that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:16

Yeah. Yeah, and then we got um my niece is taking it, my sister-in-law was pregnant, she was taking the hair package, my mom was taking it, they've taken it. Um, so yeah, we kind of evangelized the the family a little bit with the heart and soist.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:31

That's uh I feel like that like that's like my family too. Like everybody takes it now, so that's that's how it goes.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:37

Yeah. Awesome. So, so what's up for you um running wise now? What are you looking forward to? What are you what are your goals? Um do you have any ambitions beyond marathon? Do you ever think about ultra marathons? What's your favorite race distance? I guess that's a better question. What's your favorite distance?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:56

That is a good question. I would say to be determined still. I would say if I had to pick a favorite one, it'd probably be the ten K. Okay. And I'm as I kinda go into like high rock season towards the end of the year, I'm gonna kinda focus my shift or focus like focus more on five and ten Ks and kind of work on my speed a little bit more. Um something I wish I would have done from the very beginning, but um probably focus on five to ten K's a little more. Um marathons man, marathons are just so grueling and it's just a lot of preparation and I want to be fitter before I actually fully go into like a full marathon build.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:53

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:54

And and and I'm starting like this build with my half marathon is I'm getting there. I'm feeling like pretty fit, like what like definitely the most fit I've been.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:05

You ran 74 miles, bro.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:09

I'm like the most fit I've been like in my in my running career right now. And like my legs just recover really well. Um my speed feels pretty good. Um I ultimately set out to run, to run a sub-three marathon. Okay. That was that was like at the time, because at the time when I was working at the gym where we were training like um endurance runners, I think one of the runners there, his goal was to run a sub-three marathon. And I was like, dude, you're running a 650 pace for like um like a marathon, like that sounds crazy. And then I was thinking, like, there's I I betcha I like if I I could do that. So like that's kind of always been which sounded crazy at the time. Now it sounds like a lot more realistic. But um, yeah, you know, it'd be fun to do kind of going back to your the ultra marathon question too, it'd be fun. I've done a 50k.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:14

50k is what, 31 miles? Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:16

Yeah, 31, 32, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:18

Yeah, I've done a 50k. That was tougher. I didn't I had a jar of honey and like a water bottle. So it was like not the smartest fueling setup ever. And yeah, around like mile 25, a jar of honey is not fun at all. It like doesn't work that well at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:37

Like nothing. Yeah. But like it'd be a 50 miler would be cool, a hundred miler would be like just a crazy feat. Um, but yeah, I want to get fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:50

I I I wanna, I wanna like, and I think kind of I know this is one of the questions you sent me, or like we talked about in the email, which was like, if you could start running all over again, like how would you like approach it? And I would start with smaller, with shorter races.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:09

I would I would focus on building my five and 10k times up and then kind of start dabbling into like half marathons and marathons, which like I just jumped into a marathon, then I was like, I just want to keep running marathons, but it's almost like you never really build if you just kind of always doing races. You gotta have some periods where you're like doing different stuff. So I'm kind of looking forward to kind of changing my goals into more like faster 5, 10k stuff. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:40

Yeah, for me, and it's it's kind of I was actually just talking to my buddy that when I'm doing that race in in August with. Um I haven't I've haven't done an ultra yet, so it's kind of silly for me to speak on it. But to me, like in my mind, they're like almost totally different things.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:58

Oh, it it's it's I mean, it's so different. There's like at least when I did that 50k, it was like I was running with a couple guys, then I would walk a little bit and we were just chatting it up, and then I'd run, then I'd walk, and then it's like more about finishing. It's like obviously it depends on what your goals are, but I think like the theory of or not the theory, but just kind of more of the general sense around running ultras. It's just more of like, hey, I'm just gonna get out there, I'm just gonna get the miles in. Right. And it's not necessarily about like how fast can you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:32

Yeah, and it's not, you know, every course isn't the same. So you can't look at like someone's 50k time and be like, oh well, I beat it on this. No, you know, you did this in Texas and I did this in Maine, and my time was better or worse. Like, you know, maybe it was 115 when you did yours, or you know, you had 7,000 vertical feet, or you know, it's like so much more of a like, like you said, just just an adventure almost to do this. So like I almost put them in two separate buckets. There's like running for for like half marathons, 10ks, marathons, things like that. That's just that's where you're like worrying about your pace and the time matters, and like you're really chasing like like these measurable and definable goals. You know what I mean? Whereas like the ultra marathons, like, I wonder if I can make my body do that. You know what I mean? Like, so in my mind, that's how I look at them. Um, because I saw this this post that like flared this question off with a lot of people and in the communities, and like I don't know, it seems like people are like, well, ultra running's better for this and this, and people are like, Yeah, but like, you know, marathons and half marathons are better for this and this. And I'm like, why are we even are like they're two different things?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:43

They're so different.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:44

It's like saying, you know, football's better for this and basketball's better for that. Like they're not you know what I mean? It's like kind of a stupid argument, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:50

It is. Yeah, it doesn't work, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:54

Yeah. So any other advice to new runners? If if uh let's say someone's doing a couch to 5K, never been running, what would you if you were if you were advising um 19-year-old Joe doing a couch to 5K with all the wisdom you've got now, what would you tell them? What would be your advice?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:17

Man, if I was talking to myself, there probably would if I was talking to 19-year-old me, there probably wasn't much I could tell me because I probably wouldn't listen to what my advice anyways. Um but if I had to tell somebody, it'd depend on like how serious they were about it, if they were just doing it for fun. Um I would say, you know, just try to get out there a couple times a week. Do like try to run three times a week, do a day of speed work where you're running a little bit faster, a couple intervals, and then have those other two runs like super easy. Like don't put too much pressure on it, just if you're doing it for fun. If you're a little more serious for it, I'd say either maybe get a coach or um probably the same thing, honestly. I would say just do a couple easy runs. Don't overfatigue yourself because if you don't have a huge running background, you're not gonna gain a lot of fitness in a short period of time. So the harder you push yourself, you're probably just gonna hurt yourself more in that short period of time because it's just running in you just don't it doesn't work like that. But um, if I was telling that to myself, I my night year self would be like, all right, screw you. I'm gonna run as fast as I can. Yeah, yeah, we'll go do it anyways, and then I'd end up getting hurt. So yeah, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:34

That's exactly what I would do. I know it for a fact.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:36

But um, I mean, there's like I mean, that's a good question too, because we have a lot of people at work that I try to get into running. And even just running 5Ks, and it's like, I mean, it's the same thing. Like, I'm a big fan of doing like run walks. So, like a lot of people say, like, yeah, I can't run three miles straight, or I can't run two miles straight. It's like totally okay. Like, go run for one minute and then walk for 30 seconds and do that for a mile or two. So I think it's just kind of uh building up good habits would be more um of my advice, and just uh thinking that you don't have to be perfect just trying to run a 5k for your first time.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:16

Great. All good advice. I can I I definitely agree with most of that, and I've definitely ignored most of it. And hurt myself and pushed too hard, and oh yeah, yeah, all of those things, and you're like, oh, that was stupid. I shouldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:30

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:31

Yep. All right, so to close up, I got uh I got a quick list of questions here. So no long answers, just kind of first thing that comes to mind. Um, and we'll we'll bang them out as fast as we can, all right?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:44

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:44

Favorite pre-run meal?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:46

Ooh, I would have to say sourdough bread bread and jelly.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:50

All right. GPS watch or no GPS watch on your runs? GPS. Okay. Favorite shoes.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:58

As of right now, I just bought some Adidas Boston 13s for my long runs, and I've really liked those.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:07

Alright. Favorite socks.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:11

I don't know if I have like a favorite. I don't know if I wear, I just wear like random socks.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:15

Yeah, me too. I'm I've another Instagram thing that keeps getting me. Those uh those creeper socks.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:20

I I haven't seen those.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:22

Yeah, they're like these merino wool knit socks. They're supposed to be like no blisters and company, but anyway. Yeah, right now I just I've got like a random pile of socks in my drawing.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:32

If I if I could find like two of the same socks, that's like my biggest win in the movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:36

Yep, that's a win for sure. Uh gel or no gel? Gel. Alright. Road or trail.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:43

Road at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:45

Okay. What's a running opinion that you have that most people would disagree with?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:53

Oh, dang. Um, I don't know, most people would agree with disagree with this, but I would say like lifting heavy is actually beneficial.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:01

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think a lot of I think a lot of people I know think of that as a negative for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:08

I think it's if you do it the right way, it works in your you can't do heavy reps, but from what I've heard, like it builds a certain stimulus that kind of helps your body adapt to to the type of effort that you want to put out.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:22

Okay. We're gonna kind of talk about this one. Uh, what's next for you? Any races on the horizon? Um I know we talked about the half marathon you got coming up at the end of May.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:32

I actually got a 5K in two weeks, too. That's gonna be a little prep for the half marathon.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:37

All right. So I'm thinking of shifting this question a little bit to what are your goal times for your next races?

SPEAKER_04 1:38:45

That's a good, good question. Um do you want to commit to that? I do. I do. I gotta commit to it. My 5K, I don't feel like I'm in great 5K shape right now. So it's like my my my PR for a 5K is a 603 pace. So which comes out to like an 18 something. 18 like 40 something, 1848 or 1840 something like that. So if I could run around there, I think I should. Like I think that'd be like my goal time, maybe like a six minute, six oh five pace for that. My goal time for the half marathon would be I would say if I get under a six thirty pace. And then like between six thirty and six twenty-five. I think that's like a 124, 123, something around there. So I would say probably like a sub 124 for the half marathon. If I was in the 120, 123s, that'd be that'd be exciting. That's pretty sick. That'd be exciting. That's a good time.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:48

I was right there with you on uh my first half marathon. I was only an hour behind that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:57

Hey, hey, running 13 miles ain't easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:59

No, no, and uh the weather was terrible too. It was like freezing rain, sleet, wind. It was rough.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:06

That's not that's not fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:08

It was it was a really good time, but it was difficult for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:11

Yeah, probably felt bull way better after.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

Oh, yeah. There was one point, dude, we were like right on the ocean. The whole race was right on the ocean. Oh gosh. And um, and it was I think 42 degrees when we started and like just sleeting like crazy. Yeah, and we got like we came out of the state park, we go down the road a little ways, and there's some like parking areas and like like this rock wall, so you're kind of shielded from the wind, and then you come around this corner and you're just like facing the ocean for about a half mile, and the wind was like whipping in our face and it's sleeting out, so I'm like getting sleet in my eyes, stinging my face. I was like, I was running like this with my hand over my face, and I'm like just looking down right in front of my feet because the like my my eyes were literally just like watering. I was crying because I kept getting sleet in my eyes.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:01

Yeah, that sounds that I have I haven't had too many, too many bad race experiences. If anything, like living in Texas, it's usually too hot. Yeah, it's usually like doing a race in like 82 degrees with like the humidity at like 98%, and you're just like just sweating walking outside. Yeah. But um, yeah, that would do that doesn't sound fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:27

No, it was it was rough. I mean, it was fun because it was my first half marathon, and I loved I loved the accomplishment. But I gotta say, like the volunteers were amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:37

Oh they were being out there in that weather, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:42

Dude, it's like it's one thing to run in that weather, but like at least you're keeping yourself warm, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:46

Like and they're like and you signed up for it, and like you paid for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:49

Like it's like you're out there for you trying to do something, you're like you have a goal. These these people, and it was like it was mostly girls because the um the the charity they were supporting was like um something to do with like women like like uh beauty pageants or something, like like helping sponsor young girls to like like do stuff like that. I don't know, I don't really know what it is, but so there's like a lot of younger girls, um, probably like high school and college day H girls that were volunteers, and like these girls are just out there in these in these jackets, like just sitting there shivering the whole time, and it's like 40 miles. And raining, and they're like giving me Gatorade, and I'm like the dick, even like making you stand out here. You know what I mean? My word. Oh, it was they did a they did an amazing job. So like huge, huge shout out to them. And they were like so happy every time I came by, they were really pleasant. That helped me a lot emotionally, like just a random that was like one of the things I learned for sure. Like the random cheers from strangers. Oh, yeah. That's like so much more than I would have thought. You know what I mean? It's like that I've never met that person, but they sound good. It makes me feel good about myself. They're happy, yeah. I know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny how how big of an effect that has on you for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:06

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:08

Um, all right. So before we finish up, is there anybody you want to thank? I don't know if you have any sponsors or anybody that you work with or anything like that. Anyone that you want to thank?

SPEAKER_04 1:43:16

Do not have any sponsors. That'd be awesome if I had to get some free running shoes or something. Uh I mean, shout out Heart and Soil. Heart and Soil's been great. It's uh the knowledge that I've gained and learned. Um I appreciate you having me on this podcast. You know, this is this is pretty cool. Like you said, it's your first time, it's my first time. Um I'm happy you invited me. And then I gotta like shout out my girlfriend too. She's been she's been amazing. She definitely gives me so much support, helps me out so much. Um wouldn't be able to do the things that I'm doing without her. So that's definitely one of the biggest shout-outs.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:56

Awesome. Awesome. All right, I guess that uh does it for this episode. So thank you uh a ton for coming on. That was really generous of you with your time. Um I'm so thankful that you were willing to do this with me. And I had a great time chatting with you, and hopefully some other people online find it helpful as well. And until next time, just keep running. Thanks, Evan.