“Utility-Style IT” and the Future of MSP Quote-to-Cash | Philip Wegner

In this episode of Talk Tech, Rob Scott talks with Philip Wegner, CEO of TechGrid, about why MSP quote-to-cash must evolve beyond static proposals into a modern, utility-style customer experience.

They explore how connected workflows, automation, and practical AI enable MSPs to scale while improving transparency and delivery.

Key Insights:

• Legacy quoting tools were built for PDFs and signatures, not end-to-end customer experiences.

• Digitized discovery and standardized workflows unlock automation across pricing, ordering, and fulfillment.

• AI delivers the most value when layered on connected systems that remove manual work without replacing relationships.


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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Talk Tech with Rob Scott.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Philip Wagner, welcome to the show. Hi, Rob. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. I'm excited to have you here. And I'd like to just get started by letting you explain to the audience, you know, a little bit about you, who you are, where you come from, and and what you do.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Sure. Well, I'm uh my name's Philip. I'm the CEO of TechGrid. I also run uh kind of the product development side. And um, and I owned an MSP for 15 years um before uh creating TechGrid. I actually um created Tech Grid out of an MSP uh because we were uh struggling with a lot of things, working with our customers and working with partners. And uh and so I just started building software to solve that problem. And then after I built enough software, I showed it to several other people, and they're like, hey, you need to uh you need to focus on the software and sell the uh MSP part of your company. And so uh that's what we ended up doing. Uh did not intend to uh I wasn't visionary enough, I would say, to have done that on my own. It was something that I kind of stumbled into, uh, just kind of hit my head against the wall. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

You know, I had people telling me from you know the mid-2000s, Rob, you need to turn your legal, you know, contracting business into a service and just charge a small monthly fee. And I would look at them and smile and you know, say, oh, that sounds like a great idea. Yeah. Um, but it's easier said than done. Uh I would say. And so I also tell people, uh, there are many MSPs that have started SaaS businesses, but very few SaaS founders have started an MSP. Well, that's right. That's right. That's exactly right. And and the reason is because in my mind, if you can solve a problem for a hundred people with a SaaS business, there's a chance you could solve it for a thousand. And if you could solve it for a thousand people, there's a chance you could solve it for ten thousand people. And with a space like IT, the one you're in, uh the the total addressable market uh is substantial and it's homogenous. What I mean by that is we have five hundred and eighty-five subscribers on the Monja platform, and while there are significant differences in their businesses, you'd be astonished at how similar all of those businesses are. And so I I think a business like TechGrid is in a strong position. I I'm sure that it wasn't lost on you when all these people were encouraging you to build a quoting tool, that there were a lot of very well financed companies that had a much longer head start than you that were building quoting and quote the cash solutions for MSPs. And so how did you feel about entering into what was a a bit of a crowded space and a space where there was a lot of you know mature players?

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Well, I I agree with most of your assessment there. Uh, but but what what I would reframe is that um what we're building is a little bit different than what's already in the market. I think what a lot of people did because they're following companies like ConnectWise, and these companies have been around and really were the like industry pioneers specifically for MSPs, is that a lot of people they're building things, even when ConnectWise acquired a closal, they're really kind of plugging it into an existing platform, if you will. Um and um, and so they're kind of limited based on the functionality. And what what I believe, and and I believe this because I had a company for 15 years that did this, is that the business customer, that's the companies that are consuming technology, had changed. And that means that the MSPs in the VARs, or the technology service providers, if you will, that are serving those customers have to have the tools to change with the customer. I'll give you just like a couple examples. Um, you and I could order uh, you know, our toilet paper and dog food on Amazon, and we know within a two-hour window it was going to show up at our places, right? If you go to the average MSP and bar and you go, hey, uh, what kind of tracking do you have that you provide your customers on shipping them technology? They're gonna say nothing. Like they don't have anything. Um, and if you say, hey, if your customer wants to consume this network that you're selling them as a service or on subscription, how do you do that? How long does it take you to do that? Well, most of them can't even do that. And so there's just a lot of functionality that I needed to have when I've owned a company that I could not get from existing industry software because that software was built in diff with different architecture, and I talk about that in a second. Um, and it was built to solve a different problem that I believe the world uh has today. I believe that today, and really the reason we call the company Tech Grid is because um businesses consume technology in 2025 more like a utility. If you look at AWS, if you look at software, your company, software as a service, right? They're being provided essentially as utilities. And if you go to an MSB and go, you need to provide that like a utility, I don't even know like how do you how do you do that? What does that even look like? What does it look like for my company? And then what does it look like for my customer who is now buying from my company um as a service or like a utility? And so if you think about like the customer experience problem that has to be there, the customer has to have a modern experience to log into that looks more like an AWS, and then the uh the company in servicing them has to have this kind of interface where they can provide that uh to their customer to know that so so I I think the answer to the question is you were confident in entering because you experienced the pain that TechGrid was invented to solve. Yeah, you were talking about a software earlier um and the difference between a software like an MSP business. Yeah, and and I would argue that it's completely different. Like just because you were a technology company and you were you know doing network integration, you could really suck at building software. And there and there's a lot of companies who like have tried this. Say I, you know, I I was an MSP and I started building software and they're building like really shitty software. And that that you see that kind of over and over again. So there's a there's a huge learning curve and a gap. However, if you can cross that chasm, if you will, um, and if you're gonna try to solve a problem that I believe is fairly complicated uh in the IT industry, because if you're gonna sell something to a customer as a service, I've got to combine hardware and licensing, I've got to combine internet service in many cases, I've got to combine apps, I've got the whole services lifecycle with assessing and designing and installing and all that. It's very, very complicated to bring all that together and then go to a customer and say, hey, that's gonna be $20,000 a month or whatever. And so the problem is fairly complex. And so if you did not come from the industry, I believe it's extremely unlikely that you are gonna come in, even if you're good at building software and be able to solve that problem. And the proof point is really Arnie Bellini. If you look at why why did ConnectWise, you know, where did it come from? Well, it was uh Arnie running uh, you know, an MSP and then solving problems for himself, and then he turned that into ConnectWise and started solving it to other companies. And our story really is the same. I just don't know that I was as smart as Arnie. I think Arnie planned it, uh whereas I kind of fell into it.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Well, look, I I think it's amazing what you guys are doing, and and as you know, I deal with the with the tools because Monger's customers are using a variety of of solutions. Yep. And when I first looked at TechGrid, the thing that just absolutely blew me away is is with the automation that you deliver in terms of quoting. I think the particular example that was shown to me that was a satellite image of a building. Yes. And you guys were gonna do a quote on cabling, structured cabling for the building. Yeah. And within less than a minute, yeah, uh, you showed me how your tool will measure the building, take into consideration all kinds of variables with cabling and accessories and uh labor and everything that's needed to do a quote, to do a structured cabling project for a commercial building is a hundred percent automate. Yeah. And that was just really fascinating. So, in addition to that type of automation for quoting, what are the other things or other processes that TechGrid automates for an MSP?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Well, I don't know where the list is gonna. I that that could be a long list, but so let me let me frame it first, and then and then I'll get into like specifics. So AI is already like uh everybody wants to name their company AI this and AI that. Uh and so it's just already kind of overused, and we're we're seeing all the time. But just like conceptually, um AI is is is a great tool to have when you combine it with workflow software. So uh, and the key here is the workflow software. And so when we were solving some of the problems you're talking about, what we first did is we said, why does it take us so long to create quotes? Uh, number one. And then number two, if I'm a customer, you know, a modern customer, what are they gonna expect to see in an interface from my company? And those are two like really significant problems because I have to give them real-time updates and I have to essentially decide how am I going to take all these steps that my team is doing manually, and then essentially digitize those in some sort of workflow software. And if you go inside like an MSP or bar and I'm talking about the billion dollar companies, I'm talking about the you know, two million dollar uh companies. If and you look at like what takes so long to do things, it's all the stupid shit that we're still doing manually. It's converting, like, oh, they emailed it to me in PDF. Oh, I gotta take the PDF and I gotta convert that over here. And oh, I gotta, I gotta, oh, I got another quote from a partner over here. Let me let me, it's just it's insanity that we work, you and I work in the IT industry and we're not digitally connected to each other. And so when you look at like the problems that we tried to solve, like we said, okay, well, the first thing we have to do is we have to first digitally connect people together. And a lot of the older platforms, um, you know, like PSA software that was built, you know, in the early 2000s, let's say, or even the 2010s, they weren't built microservices first and they weren't built very API friendly, frankly. And so it was hard to take a HubSpot CRM and plug it to into a you know uh a traditional PSA software. And so, like, well, the first thing we gotta build is we gotta build connected tissue for all these different things. Like the MSPs you're talking about that have 30 tools on average, like we got to connect all that shit together. Like, we have to first like literally just digitally connect to the apps that they're using and the partners that they're working with. So if I'm still emailing Ingram Micro and TD Cinex and DH in 2025, they're still emailing them a PDF order, dude. We we we're way, way behind, right? So I have to have to connect that together. And then what we did is we said, all right, now that we've got connectivity, which was really, really hard, uh, I think we said, now how do we take these things, selling and fulfilling, and build these into workflow software. Now, um, we first said there's no way in hell we can do it. Um, but then we got into a conference room and it was a 40-foot whiteboard where we went step by step, all the way from like a partner like an Ingram, all the way through to the customer. And we said, if we're gonna digitize this whole thing, this is what it would look like. And then we took that and put it in a 10-page workflow chart. And then we said, okay, and then and then we have to, then we took the 10-page workflow chart and we started building it into steps. Now, the cool thing about being in the industry for so long um and knowing so many people in the industry is we could take all these different steps that's involved in the process and really take the best practices from the industry and build those essentially into digital screens. And so what you're talking about is um, and I know I've been going for a while there, what you're talking about is the discovery process. Like if you can build essentially a standardized discovery process in a guided workflow, you can actually automate bill of materials creation. And if you can automate bill of materials creation, you can automate costs. And if you can automate costs, you can automate prices. And so once you digitize essentially that process, you really it's really fun all the different ways that you can apply automation to that digital workflow.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

That's fascinating. It really is. There's a much different way to think about uh, you know, the the tools that are the legacy tools that you talked about were really designed to replace the email signature on an attached PDF. They were designed to allow you to create uh uh more of an app-like experience so someone could click onto a quote or proposal, review it, and sign it. Really, a proposal engine with an e-signature capture capability is kind of the way I would describe many of the quoting tools, right? But what you have have have designed is something that's much more significant than that. And it sounds like that um the driver on that is there's a a modern customer experience that needs to be met, that you can't meet with that static just proposal. They sign it through an e-signature platform, and that's the end of the discussion. You're really taking it beyond the the the quote and signature capture to the fulfillment and the uh execution, uh, et cetera, could be even for the as a service piece is considered the onboarding components of those services. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah, so um I started thinking about this problem uh a long, long time ago. And it was when uh Domino's came out with a pizza tracker, and I was like, I can track a Dan pizza. And and my customers, I actually had a customer call me and they're like, hey Phil, um where's the tracking on all my stuff? And I'm like, I I I don't have I I gotta go like you know find it and then like email it to. And they're like, you know, I can track a pizza, right? Like, you know, I'm like, yeah, I just got a really good point. I think I I if if Domino's can figure it out with pizzas, and I'm a technology company, I should be able to figure that out. And so what we started doing is we started building essentially this front end. And what I think is really important, and I'm talking about just from an industry perspective, is that we have to do what Amazon did 20 years ago, more than that now, and start with the customer experience and then work our way backward all the way up to the kind of the IT channel. And so we had to think about well, if I'm a modern, if I'm a customer, what do I expect to see? Well, I expect to get access. All my quotes aren't coming to me in DocuSign, they're coming to me in an interface where I'm working essentially with my MSP or my uh my my tech support folks, and I'm telling them or working with them inside essentially a digital workspace. Like that's they gotta have that, you know, like modern project management software, you know, kind of has that. And then if I'm gonna uh track an order, I need to be able to see where everything is in real time. Again, just like Amazon or anything else. But if I'm working with someone on a project-based uh, you know, implementation or something like that, what my experience is gonna be is gonna be a little bit different. I might have a tracker up top inside the same workspace. And so we had to kind of reenvision um what we think the customer experience should look like in a modern lens.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

So so you your solution provides an interface for the customer long, long after just the signing of the quote or proposal or order.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Oh, well, 100%. So I'll just tell you kind of how we um how I think about it. Um everybody has seen like these modern platforms like Shopify as an example and Uber. And these systems are all multi-sided, right? So you and I order uh our car and our food or whatever on Uber. And then if I'm a driver on Uber, I have a different experience. And those two experiences essentially leaked by the Uber platform. Shopify is is is the similar thing, or I buy the Shopify software if I'm a merchant, and then my customer logs in my Shopify store, and then they transact with me. That's how we thought about the entire platform, except for it's multi-sided and there's three sides, right? Because I have to have a uh customer interface, most important probably, and then I have to have the interface for the MSP and the VAR that's serving that customer, and then I also have to have the interface for the partner, companies like yours, that are working with the MSP and the VAR to work with their customer. And so, how do we essentially turn all those people into uh an ecosystem, if you will, that are serving the business customer?

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah, and and that's uh obviously, you know, why it's so exciting that Mondra and Tegrin have a partnership because you know, you create the vehicle through which we deliver the legal protection. Yes, that's right. And for our clients in common, they don't want to have to deal with you and me separately. Yeah, they want to think about you know uh a tool like yours that can aggregate all of their uh relationships into one platform and where they can plug their other vendor solutions into that same platform. And so it really is a much bigger um uh solution than what we have traditionally envisioned as the quote to cash tool. So that's that's really exciting. You mentioned AI, and you know, you know, from our prior discussions that I'm kind of an AI nerd. Yeah. I um wrote a book uh using Chat GPT-4 about legal issues in AI, and I finished it the first week it came out. So I've I've been I've been on this AI bandwagon for long before long before large language models even were invented. Yeah. Um and and I'm fascinated by it. I'm also keenly aware of the limitations of it. Uh, and so I'm I'm curious, and I and I also agree with you that the winners in the AI game are the ones that connect the large language model capability with workflow engines to get things done. It's like when I'm talking to Chat GPT on my phone, and she tells me um there's some contractors in this town um that you may be interested in hiring for XYZ project, uh, the next thing I want to do is tell her, would you give them a ring and ask them to give me a proposal or set an appointment to come to my house? And all that technology is uh already at our fingertips. Yeah. It's just who's gonna connect that large language capability with a connected voice, with the connected phone number, with the connected workflow engine to really transform the way we work. Yeah. Because it's not that much harder for me to tell my AI assistant uh to go do research, it's not that much harder for me to say go call somebody, but it doesn't have that workflow connected uh capability today. So at a high level, how are you thinking about uh AI as far as TechGrid is concerned? What um aspects of the solution will be enhanced with AI going forward? And what are things that you're specifically not considering doing with AI because of maybe its limitations or or concerns that you may have that it might not be a good fit for that particular issue?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Well, let me talk philosophically for a second, and then and then I'll talk specifically, just kind of like what our strategy is. So philosophically, I kind of have two mindsets on the whole AI kind of discussion. Um one mindset is um that you know it's gonna be used for a lot of different things like you're talking about, and maybe even um generating quotes and things like that for you. But uh just the way I think about it is what can we use AI to do uh that fixes a lot of the manual stupid crap that we do so that we can build relationships with customers. And so what whatever with this like explosion of AI and all this, they're like, hey, we're gonna replace you know all these things uh with that. And I believe that that creates a huge opportunity for the people that build relationships with customers. And we talked to MSPs at you know on a regular basis, one even this week was like, hey, yeah, we don't want to apply AI to a lot of the customer relationships. And I 100% uh agreed. Now, agree with that. Now, what do I think about like the tech grid platform and what we're doing and things like that with AI? Well, first of all, we view what we're doing, and essentially from an architecture uh perspective, we view it more like a Shopify style approach where you know if you go with an MSP, yeah, they're using 30 tools, but they're using 30 unique tools, maybe. Maybe their workflows are very similar, but they like different sets of tools. I want to use this PSA software, I want to use this CRM, you know, I want to use this, you know, essentially, you know, payment system or whatever. And the way that Shopify did this is they built essentially core commerce functionality, uh, and that was essentially buying and selling online. And then they were able to embed 10,000 apps in that essentially core functionality. And so with your service, which is super cool and very useful for MSPs that want, you know, that need they need it, and it allowed them to have kind of a really screwed up, let me send somebody a 70-page PDF with their terms of service literally, uh, today. Um, you know, being able to just literally turn on Monger inside the software, and then those legal agreements and stuff and terms of service are just there. Um, that's kind of what we envisioned. And because literally it's like Shopify. Shopify lets you customize essentially how you're buying and selling. And that's how we look at it. Now, when it comes to AI, we believe that AI is just going to be another layer of that. And I think that anybody that doesn't consider what AI can do is really missing the boat. But I think you'll be able to automate even orders and stuff to distributors. There's a lot of like really obvious things that you'd be able to do. You'll be able to have uh an AI agent build a quote for you, and then maybe you're reviewing that quote and the pricing and make sure you like it before you send it to the customer. Um, that structured workflow with standardized inputs is super important because if you standardize the inputs, you can you can essentially monitor the outputs, and that machine tends to get smarter and smarter over time. So that's how we're thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

That's fascinating. And I agree with you. You know, a lot of people point to the fact that AI could pass the bar exam in almost every state. And I laugh and say, yeah, but how many states can it get a license in? That's right. And to your point, you know, and I talk about this with legal, um AI is not going to be replacing lawyers anytime soon. But lawyers who use AI will be replacing lawyers who don't very soon. Oh, 100%. And I think that's the same as true in managed services and science and in in entertainment, right? It's just across the board. And and so uh I think that the skills of the future are relationship building and online content creation. Yep. Like if you're good at either one of those, you got a shot in the AI age. Yep. You're not good at either one of those, you're you better be able to run faster jump high. Um, because uh the prospects of you having you know exceedingly uh strong prospects in this uh AI economy are are are gonna be diminished. And but relationship skills uh are the key, and for business relationship building is paramount. So anything that can be done to take menial tasks away and automate them with AI, or take things that you used to do with spreadsheets and use AI to do those, uh frees you up to have more time for Zoom meetings, to have podcasts with customers, to you know, go in person and meet somebody, um, to go get into what in front of a whiteboard. You know, one of the things that I miss, my old law firm, every time we would develop a law firm, we always had whiteboards in strategic areas of the office because of the benefit, like you said, that they can bring to collaboration. And now in this remote workforce, I sit in front of this computer all day and talk on on Zoom calls and and record content, but I miss the opportunity to get with people uh and and really brainstorm about that. And I think that um uh there's a lot of opportunities for us in business to integrate that collaboration time, that whiteboarding time. Uh, we just have to be more deliberate about it, and that's something that I'm working on with Monger and our sales organization to put us in positions with retreats and other things that we can get that whiteboarding time uh at least every quarter, because any growing business has got whiteboardable issues every quarter.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

100% agree. I think there's an opportunity there where the MSPs work with their customers as well. And so I think that um if if an MSP just like looks at themselves internally and says, uh, what are the things that are taking us a long time to do? And why are those taking a long time? It's gonna come back to um lack of connectivity between systems, and because of the lack of connectivity, manual workflows, and if you have manual workflows, you cannot digitize that and you cannot add AI to it. So I was if I was listening, I'd be the first thing I've got to do is connect all my shit together. Like that's like problem number one. And then I can think about what are all the things that I might be able to automate. I can't tell you how many companies I've been in in front of where they have people that are like manually uh like invoicing, they're like literally uh manually loading something into their like accounting system, and then they're manually loading it into like an ERP system, and then they're manual, I'm just like, this is insanity.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

You have five one of the things that I set as a rule, you know, coming from a law firm where you got this heavy back office time and billing overhead, adds no value to the customer, pisses them off when they get the bills. That's right. Uh with Monger, what I envisioned was a completely automated back office. So today we're processing over 550 monthly payments. Yep. We have no people touch those. The only time a person has to be involved is if a payment fails. Right. That's right. If your credit card, you know, gets a fraud alert or insufficient funds. So and that happens less than two percent of the time. So we created a ninety-eight percent automated back office. Yeah. And now we're just dealing with the exceptions. We don't do any billing, we don't do any collection, everything is completely managed by UpSpot. And it's incredible what you can automate if you set out to have that mindset originally. Yeah. Like right now, I have this automation mindset for Monger, in part because we're growing so fast, we can't, without automation, we couldn't hire enough people to keep up. Right. And so we we think about automating everything that we can automate. And some of that's with AI, and some of that's with workflows, and some of that's with redesigning and uh designing out inefficiencies. Yep. Um, and so I I think that that what what you guys are doing is truly amazing. And a lot of people listen to this show, they're following my personal journey as a as a SaaS founder. They take inspiration that a guy, a middle-aged guy, can be a SaaS founder and uh really grow uh, you know, being a high growth SaaS company. Uh, and so for that listener, you know, what are the things that you could tell somebody who may be starting a career in IT or SaaS? You know, maybe they're they're trying to figure out what path they want to go on or they want to learn from people like you who have have been through it. What can you share with them about you know the the the marketplace they find themselves in and the opportunities there in front of them?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Well, I think um when you're 30 or even you know when you're 25 or 30 and you're getting out of school and trying to figure out what you want to do, you kind of want a direct path. And so you kind of envision a direct path to being a CEO or a deck path or whatever. Um, and it just doesn't work that way. Uh, you end up bouncing all over the place. And so what I think people should do is just figure out what it is you enjoy and then get really good at it. So the first one is just be flexible and where you're going or what you're doing. And then the other one is always be learning. Like you're you want to go into a job, and even if it sucks, learn everything you can about it, and then you know where to go next. Um, and then you end up, you know, guiding your your path over time. I did not start, you know, as a CEO of a software company, I started as a sales guy working for a telco, right? I did not start, you know, it where where we're at today. I just I learned and then I evolved. Um, and so if I could talk to myself, you know, 20 years ago, I I I was fortunate enough to have kind of a voracious um reading um habit. And um, and I maintain that today. And and that's really uh what I attribute a lot of things to because I did not go to a school for computer science or anything like that. I literally um learned it, figured out what it was that I was good at, and then I transitioned into another role from there. So that's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

And you mentioned reading, and I know that you know one of the biggest indicators of you know how smart and how successful people will be is is how well they read. And I know that's why in school there's so much emphasis on reading. Uh today you could consume your readings in a number of ways, whether it's podcasts like this or otherwise. But to for those that are out there that are are readers like you, uh give us a sense of your top three maybe books that you that you really recommend or any that have your attention at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Well, so that's the thing about reading is um it has a lot to do with where you are personally. And so the things I would read 20 years ago would be more like general success books, you know, um, you know, like anything from Napoleon Hill and folks like that, um, like Reach Dad Poor Dad kind of stuff that's kind of like basic, you know, stuff. Today my I'm really into more like platform business models and studying Amazon and you know, those types of books. And and so I my team makes fun of me because I talk about platforms all the time, and nobody wants to talk about platforms. So like platform revolution and you know the cold start problem and you know, working backwards books on Amazon. That that's the kind of stuff that I I read today.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

I love that. That's really that's really interesting. And then look, as a founder, uh you know, it doesn't take you long to want to position your messaging around the most successful, sought-after, um, highest multiple activities. And you know, as a CEO of a of a software firm, if you can establish a platform with a substantial ecosystem, then you're gonna all these people who you know you you pissed off about talking about platforms so much are gonna be thanking you because you made them very rich. So that's the best outcome for sure. And and look, leadership, you know, your your role at TechGrid is to mold TechGrid into your vision. Yeah. And the same with you know, Monger. Like I have an important role to play in establishing the vision for not only what Monger stands for today, but what it will be in 12 months. Right. There's nobody that is gonna be in the position to to carry that burden other than you or me or whoever the leaders are of these organizations. And I'm sure people laugh at me all the time for all the crazy stuff I say. But to your point, I had a vision of changing the way legal services were delivered and consumed. And today we're talking about a technology where in a partner application they could push a button and turn our services on. Yes. And so if you think about you know the journey and and and how far we've come in redefining you know that legal experience, uh, it really matches very closely with TechGrid's vision, and that's why we're such perfect partners, right? Because now I'm looking forward to working with you now. Yeah, we see things the same way. We have a lot of the same philosophical ideas. Our destination in many ways is similar, and so I'm grateful that our paths have crossed. And uh uh thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your insights and more about your story. Raoul, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

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