Why Choices?

In the first episode of Choices, hosts Maggie Dunn and Karemmy Schinzing introduce the heart behind the podcast and the work of House of Providence. Together, they begin unpacking what it means to hold trauma and truth in the same conversation.

This episode explores why trauma matters, why choices still matter, and why healing begins with both compassion and responsibility. Maggie and Karemmy discuss felt safety, maladaptive coping skills, victimhood, free will, redemption, and the hope that no story is beyond God’s ability to restore.

If you are a parent, foster parent, adoptive parent, kinship caregiver, or someone walking alongside a child who has experienced trauma, this conversation is an invitation to pull up a chair and begin the journey.

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. While Maggie Dunn is a licensed clinical professional, the conversations on this podcast are not intended to provide therapy, clinical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know needs mental health support, please seek guidance from a qualified professional in your area. If you are experiencing a crisis or emergency, call 911 or contact a local crisis support service immediately.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Maggie, and I am so glad you're here. This is the Choices Podcast, where trauma and truth collide. This podcast is for parents, foster parents, caregivers, honestly anyone walking alongside a child who's experienced trauma, and you want real understanding, not just surface level answers. We're gonna talk honestly about trauma, what it does, and what actually helps. So let's walk into today's conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I am too. We have talked for so many years about this content that is sort of going to be in this podcast. We've talked for so many years about how we can deliver this more widely, things that you and I talk about and wrestle with and apply here at House of Providence every day.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

I mean, you've done what, hundreds of trainings. Yeah, without fail, every single time it's standing room only. Yeah. People like, oh, can you keep going? We want more. We want more. I wonder.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Often I wonder what that's about. And I don't know if it's just um maybe how honest I am about the struggles I've had in this. So I don't just come from sort of a clinical background, although there is that. I think the compelling part is the way I've wrestled with this as a parent and the difficulty in that. And so maybe the multifaceted perspective brings some reality-based premises. And so I with all of that, I'm just excited to welcome people to this table with us as we um share this content on the Choices Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Yes, officially.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Where trauma and truth collide.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

So good.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Oh, I'm so excited. And even the name in and of itself Choices Podcast, that could just be its name, right? But where trauma and truth collide.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

And I'm super excited as episodes unfold and as the Lord gives us vision because we know we can do nothing without him. Yes. And we know that here so, so like, I don't think we even have a choice but to remember every day how desperately we need him. Um nice plan, choice. Oh, thank you. Thank you. You know I love my buttons. I love my buttons. Um so I lost my train of thought, but I know that I was talking about like where we're at and hop, and we just have learned how desperately we need him, yeah, and that we truly can do nothing apart from him. Yeah. We can't. Um and I think that that's part of what we've learned in and what's kind of tied into the title of choices. Yeah. You know, that we know apart from him we can do nothing, but we have to have a choice. We make a choice. We do. And I think in this realm, and when I say this realm, specifically in foster care, in trauma, in kids that have all these diagnoses, right? And all this stuff, yeah, and even sometimes adults, I think it's so easy to assume you can't help it. Right. And that's something at hop that, and hop house of providence. I we probably should talk about what that is. We'll do that in a minute. Yes. Um, but that's something here at hop that we've learned, right? Like that we don't agree with that. We don't agree that, oh, we just can't help it. It's because of my trauma. It's because of my trauma. Because I think that that's a cop-out.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

And you're just agreeing with what the enemy wants for your life. Yes. And we don't, but we also don't pretend that trauma doesn't exist. Yeah, right? We're not trying to say, like, oh, well, just pretend none of that happened to you. Yeah. We never say that. No. But we also, and that's something that you and I have talked about so often, we also are like, no, but what is the Lord calling you to? It is for freedom that Christ has come.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

And there's a continuum of choices that are available to you as you start your healing journey.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

And I think that's important to note that we're not just saying, make a choice, get over it, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but it's a continuum as you choose to cooperate with your own healing, with the Lord who is our healer, that it takes time and it's not just an all at once kind of a get over it. That's not what we're saying. But also we have to engage with our healing by the choices we make. And the choices we make are a direct representative of what we believe. And so I think that really understanding that, and um, and I think when it comes to living with trauma, living with someone who's experienced trauma, the compassion necessary does not negate the personal responsibility. And again, it's a continuum. We start there and we walk towards healing. It doesn't just happen all at once. And, you know, we'll get into that. But um, there are choices. There are choices.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

And that's I feel like even for people who haven't endured severe trauma. Yes. You know, as the kids that we are so privileged to walk with day in and day out.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Um, so as I bring up the kids, we probably should at least give for the first-time viewer.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

Who are who are these girls sitting here talking about trauma? Um, would just love to. I know we probably can't do an elevator pitch about House of Providence. But if you had to, okay. I'm forcing you to give some type of elevator pitch. What is House of Providence? Yeah. Go.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I get so thrown off by elevator pitch, but I'm I got you. Okay, so like a concise. So House of Providence is this organization that the Lord called Jay and I to start many years ago. And now we are a residential facility for girls who are in pretty extreme need of mental health services and behavioral stabilization programming. And we um have done that for a very long time and have really the data to back up the fact that the program is working.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

Over 110 residents. Yes, yes, yes. In 12 years, 13 years.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

And we have our Family Resource Center, we have our learning center, we have so many other tributaries. But I think for the sake of this podcast and the content, we wanted to sort of deliver what we have used in our residential program with kids who are so profoundly traumatized and cannot safely assimilate into the community, and just offer that content to families to say, hey, this works. We are data driven, we are an empirically based program. And so just offering that more broadly, and that's what we hope to do on the Choices Podcast, because we believe that when someone goes from instability to stability, and then from there they can go into trauma recovery, and then from there they can go into relationship assimilation. And so it's sort of this journey, but I think a lot of times we'll say, okay, you have trauma. Let's process your trauma. And at House of Providence, we do it very differently. We really believe stabilization has to happen first, a felt stay, a felt safety, a um development of the ego where you're not just one-dimensional. Anything one-dimensional is very, very flimsy and weak. We know that it's it doesn't have strength. And so we want to apply that to a child's inner self, their soul, and bring dimensionality to that, stabilization, and then they have that internal infrastructure and strength to unpack the trauma, unpack and process that trauma, and then they can begin community reintegration or relationship assimilation, begin to have reciprocal relationships, and that's where the thriving happens. And so that is really very reader's digest of sort of what we do and the content that we want to unpack. I don't even know how many episodes it's gonna be quite a few because there's a lot to unpack there. But um, yeah, that's really why we even set up this table and wanted to welcome people into that.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Yeah, I love it. I know we've talked about specifically with um kids that we are again so privileged to work with, then they have truly come and are victims. Yeah. Right? They truly are victims, but we also here with the podcast want to talk about choices. Yes. Right? So, how when a kid they've been through all of this and they're completely talk about unstable physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually by no fault of their own, how do you go and tell that child then, well, you have a choice not to hit me? Right. When it's like, what do you mean hitting has kept me proverbially safe for 11 years of my life? Yeah, you know, because I think it's easy. Yeah. You and I are sitting here across the table. I'm not gonna punch you.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, so of course, you would never say that to me because I haven't needed that. Yeah. But a kid that has needed that to literally stay alive, what do you how do you tell them? Well, I don't think or not just them, but maybe someone who's endured the trauma. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Well, I don't think that it's fair to ask someone to lay down maladaptive coping skills that have kept them safe until they have achieved felt safety. And we help the children achieve felt safety by going at their timetable. We can't say, hey, you're safe now. We know when they arrive, now you're safe. But their psyche takes time to catch up with that. And so once you see that trust, that rapport, that they don't owe us, but we wait for it to come. And it does. And then they're much more agreeable, I guess the word would be, or willing to acknowledge that these coping skills no longer serve them.

unknown 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

But I think it's really disrespectful to not acknowledge that those did serve them in different environments. And so walking with them until they feel safe enough to lay down those maladaptive coping skills, and then they have room in their hands to pick up new ones that will serve them and will serve the future that they're now headed towards. And that takes a long time, and that is the messiest, most arduous road in walking with a child through trauma recovery and stabilization. Is that do I am I safe enough to lay these down? Am I willing? Do I want to? But again, it comes back to waiting until they realize they have a choice and that they could do it differently.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

I love that you say choices, right? You're saying waiting until they recognize they have a choice. But it also sounds like as caregivers, not just at House of Providence, but in your home. Yes. It sounds like we have to make a choice, maybe even before the child comes or maybe within the first couple of days, right, when the child comes in to have a respect for those maladaptive behaviors.

unknown 11:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 11:45

Okay, they're probably going to yell at me. They're going to do, you know, all these things that maybe I I'm not used to in my home. Yeah. Or maybe I wouldn't allow maybe my biolog biological children. Um, so I think that there's a space for that too, right? Recognizing that choices isn't just you have choices, you have choices. But I think it begins with us recognizing, well, I have a choice first. Yes. Right? And that's and it's not just one-time choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

It's a daily choice, it's an hourly choice. I mean, sometimes it's a minute-by-minute choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Right? Yeah. And with that comes free will.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Right? And we've talked about how the Bible doesn't necessarily specifically utilize the words free will.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

But tell me, I want to hear about that. Where would you say that free will plays in?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Well, I think back to what you said about the parents having choices. And I think a lot of those choices have to be made prior to the day that you actually face it with the child and really talk those things through. What am I going to do? And acknowledging that there are some spaces that are out of bounds. And coming to a place where everyone should be able to feel safe in the home. Yeah. Not just the one who endured the trauma. And so I know we're going to unpack. Yeah, and we're going to unpack all this in in different episodes, but um safety and felt safety should just not only consider the child coming in with trauma, but the whole family unit has to determine where are our boundaries and safety and those kind of things. So boundaries is such a it's very different in this arena. And I'm excited for the episodes that will unpack that. But in terms of free will, yeah, I mean, the Bible doesn't necessarily specifically say free will, but it definitely posits us as humans with like the sort of autonomous moral agency that we get to make choices. Even the the Lord says, Behold, I stand at the door and knock. And then we have a choice.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

We have a choice to allow the God of the universe in we can choose the Lord. And He's the most perfect father. And honestly, that that's something that should bring comfort to us earthly parents who are muddling our way through, often, you know, riddled with so many mistakes when passions are high, and you're just trying to love a child who is so broken, and their brokenness just threatens to break you apart. Remembering that God the Father is the perfect father. He never got it wrong with us, his kids. And yet, so many people still say no, thank you. I don't want a relationship with you. I don't choose to be in a relationship with you. And so it should bring some small comfort to us that we we don't have to always get it right. We have choices, the children we're raising have choices. It's important to consider our responses that they will age well. And I don't, I know I didn't always get that right as a parent of kids who are so so broken. But um God the Father, the best father. And still people walk away from him. And so free will is something that, as stated in the name, sets us all free. We can choose our path. When you are in a s situation currently being victimized, you are situated as a victim. You are being victimized. After that situation is done, you've been rescued, you've been pulled out of it, you are not a victim any longer. That should not be our identity. That happened to you, and if it's not currently happening to you, you are not situated as a victim. You are situated as someone who was victimized and who had trauma and experienced trauma and the pardon me, trauma, and the the more chronic, the more acute, the more prolonged, the more complex it is to extract yourself from it. But there is a a freedom that's difficult to wrap our heads around that says, now you're a volunteer for whatever life you choose. And so our choices matter. And I think it's it's uh a messy thing to walk with someone who has had extreme, acute, prolonged chronic trauma and say, Hey, you have choices. That seems so insensitive, doesn't it? I mean, even saying it, I have a little cognitive dissonance, yeah, but it doesn't make it less true. And the choice doesn't mean it's easy, it doesn't mean any of that, but there is a sort of empowering that happens, and it's not you great, make new choices. Again, that's not what we're saying. But to take your power back can be scary, but so beautiful, and that's really what we endeavor to do with the children that we get to walk with is to help them slowly find the palatability for acknowledging that now they have a choice. And so that's a whole, you know, so much. There's so much there. So much in that.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

But um I do want to go back to what you said that when you talked about um victim versus you're now volunteering. How can you distinguish, right? Because I think it's we've talked about this as well. It's so easy to label yourself as a victim when you truly were victimized. Unwittingly. Yes, exactly. So how can you, and I know it's maybe not as cookie-cutter as you know, we want it to be a good idea. Or straightforward or really clean. No, of course not, right? Like we wouldn't have a podcast if you know if everything was like, do this and this is the perfect, here we go, trauma gone.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

You know, so kind of unpack that for me a little bit. Right. It's not a formal thing. Exactly. But like okay, how do you know when someone is still no, I'm currently still a victim versus now I'm volunteering to cooperate with dysfunction, with the maladaptive behavior. Like what what verbiage would you use? How can you know?

SPEAKER_01 18:49

If you have organized your life around your trauma and your victimization, you are going to stay in the identity of victim. And let's think about it just practically.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

If you come upon someone who has just been in a horrific car accident and they are injured on the side of the road, you're not going to require anything of that victim. You are going to pour all the resources into them. You're not going to say, hey, could you go grab me a bottle of water? No, surely not. You require nothing of them. They are currently a victim and they need all the help. But if we remain in that mindset long after the trauma has stopped, now it's our identity. A victimization is the situation.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

The victimization. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

It is not someone's identity.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

Hmm. But it's so much easier, right? It's so easy to just be the victim because people were rescuing you, and nothing was required of you.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And I think in this, and I'm just gonna say these things out loud that you and I just say, right? Come up to our table. Come on. Um very, very often at churches, people continue to reinforce the idea of victim because it makes you feel good to serve and fix and help. And that soft bigotry of low expectation is the most undignified way you could treat any human who has endured trauma. And so for me, I refuse to let people treat my children or children that I am very intimately adjacent to, like they're a short-term missions trip, and you get your little ministry hit from this sort of, and and you wouldn't even verbalize it that way. This this looking down upon the child, I'm here to help you. I'm there has to be Father Gregory Boyle wrote a few books and he explains it so beautifully that we should be in kinship and there's a fellowship of suffering instead of I am the great rescue, you need me. It just it's a very, I don't know, it it's it gets really, really ugly when you you aren't trying to walk someone into their true identity in Christ, but reinforcing this narrative, you're a victim, good thing I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

Yeah. What would you do without me almost? Right? Yeah, and then I know we'll talk more about attachment and what that does. Yeah. You know, to all the things. And it's so interesting when you're saying that because any human, right, would just want to nothing is required of them, right? Just like you're saying with the lady that's laying on the side of the road, or man, whoever it was, the car accident victim. Yeah, nothing is required of them. But when after you've been rescued, In this specific situation, after you've been rescued, then what?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Right? Like that's how do you not fall back into those proclivities where, oh, everyone can do everything for me. Remember, I I I have a limp. Remember I have a limp.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Metaphor for a while, you do need that.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Do you know what I'm saying? Like you do need that treatment.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

Like you're not saying, like, okay, you're out of the hospital, you're gonna get up and run a marathon.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

We're not saying that. So, in that metaphor, it you do need a lot of help. Maybe crutches, maybe physical therapy, maybe in-home health aid, those kinds of things. And so psychologically, there is a lot of help that is needed. And you know, some of the trauma that we have seen and kids that we get to walk with so compound fracturing that they might walk with a limp for the rest of their life. And that's where we have to pull apart what is can't and what is won't. And it is choices? Yeah, and it is so unkind to require something of someone that they cannot do. Yeah, but it's equally unkind to treat someone with no dignity as though something is a can't when it's just a won't. That's enabling, that creates codependency, it's so toxic. And we talk about that a lot here at Hop. Like, I can't try harder at your life than you do.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Unless, and you know, I have two caveats, unless you are very young or you're profoundly cognitively impaired. And then it's appropriate. Because then you can't. You can't.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Then it's appropriate to try harder at their life than they do.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

Right. And it's the most, it's the kindest thing to do. It's the loving thing to do. It's the right thing to do. Yes, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

But I think when we treat it like a can't, when it's a won't, it we we cripple someone who is able-bodied psychologically. And again, it's a continuum. I'm not saying jump up from your trauma and move on with your life. But be on that healing journey. Agree with the divine over your identity, agree with where you're headed. And there'll be bumps, there'll be bruises, there'll be limps, there'll be setbacks, all of those things. But um it comes back to that foundation. We have choices.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

And to remove that is to remove theological underpinnings that we just don't have the right to remove.

SPEAKER_04 24:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:46

You can say that all over again. We don't have the right to remove that just because it's inconvenient to the culture because it may offend or counterintuitive to you.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

I want to help you, and it's easier if I just do it for you. Yep. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

But then if you say, oh, it's easier to do it for me, well, are you actually doing it for them, or is it because you want to feel really great about yourself and be the great rescuer or whatever? But you know, I digress. But as another episode, right, another episode for another time. Um, as you're saying the things with cooperating with the with the divine, you know, something that I love that we do so well here at Hop. I mean, I know I alluded to it earlier, just how we know apart from him we can do nothing, but we talk so much about redemption.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:28

You know, redemption, that's the huge like biblical word. Yes. But then we also have neuroplasticity, right? So like talking about both of those, and one thing that I personally love is whenever science finds out this new, I don't know, this new data, this new thing modality, and we're like, Jesus said that already a long time ago. And people are like, did you know the brain can heal itself in neuroplasticity? Yes. Yes, yes, you know, because the Lord says that. So talking about that and just wanna give our viewers some hope, yeah. Whether they're the parent, whether they're um the child, whether they're um someone adjacent, yeah, whether they're outside, you know, whoever, whether they're an adult that maybe still is identifying as a victim from their six-year-old self. Yeah, you know, and their life is completely arrested. It's arrested, right? Giving some hope with the redemption and the neuroplasticity. Yeah. So I I want to hear a little bit about that. I want to hear like, because I've heard you talk about it so much. Yeah. Um, and I'm just for the for the viewers to hear, talking about the redemption that we know that the Lord has, but how neuroplasticity works in our favor and even what it is.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Yeah. So it takes time to get that momentum, and that momentum does just not come easily. I I think of it as um riding a two-wheel bike up a hill on loose gravel, and your wheels are just spinning, just spinning, and it takes a lot of time till eventually it catches and you can start going. And the bike is easier to ride the faster you're going. But it takes real effort to get going and to get that stability, and that's really what this is like. And and neuroplasticity is basically the concept that the brain can heal.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

The brain can heal from trauma, where for a very long time it was thought and assumed that once your brain injured, TBI, trauma, whatever has brought that injury to your brain, that's it. And within the recent past, researchers have found that neuroplasticity is the uh brain's ability to recover. And that is absolutely what redemption is. And I don't think I know that you and I could not do what we do. Walk with children who have been rescued from the most heinous situations, the star of a child pornography ring, the child who was sold by her mother for meth, the I mean, we could just go on, the atrocities that we have walked. I could not walk with these children out of these valleys of the shadow of death and real death if I didn't know one million percent that there is nothing, and there is no one that the Lord cannot redeem. There's nothing. He can redeem anyone, he can turn any situation around, he there's nothing he can't do. And so I think the the trauma and the truth colliding bring together this idea of free will and this idea of redemption so filled with compassion, and we know the answer. It doesn't mean we always get it right because I don't. I don't get it right. I make the wrong choice regularly. I've said so many times the the scariest verse to me as a verbal processor is that will give an account for every idle word.

SPEAKER_04 29:23

I'm like, oh I'm right with you're such a verbal processor.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I have muttered things under my breath. I'm like, oh, I hope that's under the blood. But I think just knowing that the Lord can redeem and he wants to redeem, and that he was not the author of the trauma, that free will and people's brokenness is what perpetuates the trauma, but he is there and he's sending people that he's equipping for his rescue mission and to bring him not to us, not to our modalities, not to TBRI or cognitive behavioral therapy, but to bring people to the foot of the cross, to bring people to Jesus, the Redeemer.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

I love that. That's so good. And I'm so excited to um, in a way, introduce that heal, you know, that healing that I know that I have personally partaken of, me too. You know, and needing to cooperate with him and recognizing how it's you know, I feel like we're talking so macro. So I'm super excited. This isn't like a give it, get it all done in one episode, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:35

But drink from a fire hose, as they say.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Good luck, have fun, you know. Um but I'm so excited because I know even personally, being throughout my throughout years past, I could see how certain mindsets or certain choices that I was making weren't necessarily obvious, right? It's so fun but you can pay attention to like, why is it, for example, this isn't my story, but for example, why have I been through, why is it that every single time I get a best friend, they leave? Do you know what I mean? And of course, there's there's always caveats, it's not always somebody's fault, but if I'm looking back, I'm like, why is it that I can see a trail of broken friendships?

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

Why is it that anytime I try to get close to someone? Yeah, why is it anytime I try to get close to someone, I I can't, or seems like something, you know, and I think that it's important that we recognize too, yes, that we have choices, yeah, but even I feel like with that recognizing, well, first you need to like the trauma, yes, but the truth. What is the truth?

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Like, well, this person, da-da-da-da-da. Well, they well, hold on. Yeah, and taking some personal responsibility for what choices we have made, what choices we are making, and what choices we want to continue, you know, that we get to choose.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Even what choices were made over our life that left us broken and really grieved those. Yeah. And honestly, I have been to so many conferences and sat under teachings for CEUs that really situate the family, that child, the parenting style around the trauma. Everything is situated around the trauma.

SPEAKER_04 32:15

What does As in like trauma is king?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

You have to bow down to, and I'm not saying don't be mindful of it, don't be trauma-informed. We are extremely trauma-informed here at House of Providence and in my own life, but I choose to situate my life around the truth and bring the trauma into that, which is really a different approach that's not practically walked out. And that's what we hope to do here on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of Choices. Will you take one small step this week? It doesn't have to be everything, just something. And remember, you're not alone in this. We'll see you next time.