All Feelings Are Welcome. Not All Behaviors Are

In Episode 2 of Choices, Karemmy and Maggie unpack two foundational words for understanding children who have experienced severe trauma: trauma and attachment.

Together, they talk about what trauma is, how it can shape a person’s identity and relationships, and why attachment matters so deeply in the healing process. They also speak honestly about one of the hardest tensions for caregivers: creating a safe place where every feeling can be named, understood, and cared for, while still helping a child learn that not every behavior is okay.

This episode pushes back on the lie that trauma gets the final word. Trauma is real. Attachment wounds are real. Healing is not easy, quick, or always clean. But repair is possible.

For parents, foster parents, caregivers, and anyone walking alongside a child with a hard story, this conversation offers practical understanding, honest encouragement, and a hope-filled reminder: what happened to you may shape your story, but it does not have to define who you become.

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. While Maggie Dunn is a licensed clinical professional, the conversations on this podcast are not intended to provide therapy, clinical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know needs mental health support, please seek guidance from a qualified professional in your area. If you are experiencing a crisis or emergency, call 911 or contact a local crisis support service immediately.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Katami, and I'm so glad you're here. This is Choices for Trauma and Truth Commodity. This podcast is for parents, foster parents, caregivers, or honestly anyone who is walking alongside a child who has been through severe trauma. And truly they're seeing all of the issues that come with that. And they want real understanding. Real life practical answers, not just surface levels. So here we talk honestly about what trauma is, what it does, and what actually helps. So with that, let's dive into today's conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

And that's something too that, as you're saying, it's not, I don't know, I feel like everything that we do at House of Providence, it's feels like we're the first ones. Right. It's not intuitive. Right. It's definitely not intuitive. And I've even heard people will say there is no such thing as a maladaptive behavior. And we just don't agree with that. Right? Because if we agreed with that, then we're disagreeing. Well, then you can't help it that we that would mean that I'm not agreeing that redemption is possible. Yeah. That you're just doomed, for lack of a different word. That you're just doomed to what happened to you when you were four years old. Good luck. We don't believe that. We don't ascribe to that, not because we're haughty, not because we're prideful. I mean it might take time to develop some new neuropathways.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

It might take time to lay that down. But I don't believe that you could never stop punching someone in the face. Right. We now I've been punched in the face many times.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, I was about to say many times.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

But sit sitting in it with that child. And if you're not willing to sit in the mess, then don't just lob platitudes.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I sit in the mess. I sit in the mess. And so I'm willing to say, like, nope, we're gonna, you're better than that. You're gonna choose different than that. You you know, we we talk about, and I know this is really sort of pop culture, psych popular psychology, if you will. All of your feelings are welcome here. And I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

I add the addendum, all of your behaviors are not.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

That's so good. That could be a tagline, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

All of your feelings are welcome here, and we want to unpack those and validate those and walk with you in that, but all of your behaviors are not welcome because I believe you have choices. And again, a continuum. It'll take you time to get there. Yeah. But I'm willing to walk with you in the mess and try to help you outrun those things so that we can lay them down and you can realize wait, I was traumatized, but I'm an incredible person.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

And that's where truth and trauma collide.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah. Oh, I love it. I love all the um how much is just coming up, yeah, you know, naturally and talking about trauma and talking about attachment. And as, I mean, I don't know how much time we have. Mag and I could sit here and talk for literally the entire day, right? Truly. Um, but you know, as we I've realized, you know, we keep talking about, we keep saying trauma, we keep saying attachment, and all these things that you and I know what we're saying. But let's say that we have a listener who they have their definition of trauma, they have their definition of attachment that they've heard, that they've learned, or maybe right now, as they're listening to us, they put us on pause and they're chat-chippeteeing it or whatever. They're just like, wait, what is that? And they're probably getting 17 different opinions. Yeah. Right? So, for the sake of, we don't want to assume that someone knows what you and I, what House of Providence, what our foundation is for trauma and for attachment, those big buzzwords surrounding this. So I think that it would be helpful to kind of give a definition, maybe unpack because we don't want to take for granted, assuming that people know. Like when we say trauma, this is what we're referring to. And when we say attachment, this is what we're referring to. Maybe like a macro view, because I know if we get into the micro, again, we'll be here for three years.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yes, getting in the weeds for sure. So trauma. So in unpacking those words, let's start with trauma, like you had said. Um trauma is any event that severely impacts a person's physical, emotional, or psychological self.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

So that is trauma. Again, like we referenced earlier. That can be a car accident, that can be a natural disaster, that can be something catastrophic, it can be a crime that you are fell victim to. Um the interesting thing is that two people could experience the same event and one person synthesizes it as a trauma and the other person does not. That that yeah, that so that's not necessarily objective. Correct. Correct. Okay. So it's it's uh it's how you synthesize it in your being. And that could be someone's resilience could play into that. I went through it. Oh, I was in a terrible car accident, and I moved on with my life, and I'm I have no triggers from it. I jump back into the car and I'm driving, and it's it's fine. Another person might, it might take loads of support for them to get back behind the wheel or get back on an expressway or drive near a truck. They they've synthesized it as a trauma, and so they need some support to process that trauma and get on the other side of it. Um, now, when someone is traumatized, that would indicate that you have organized your life, your identity, your psyche, your relationships around the trauma. Again, that doesn't have to be one event. It could be that acute and prolonged trauma. You have lived in neglect for many years, you've lived in a human trafficking situation, you've lived in extreme abuse or domestic violence or whatever for many years, and now you are a traumatized person because you have organized your life, you have situated yourself around that trauma.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Okay. That's really helpful. Specifically, I'm just, I feel like I'm still stuck at a minute ago when I was like, trauma is an objective.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

You know, I know you and I we've joked around about situations that we may be in, and we're like, that was so traumatizing. Right. You know, and we kind of sit a little tongue in cheek. And sometimes it might be a little maybe it's a little unsunsoil. Yes. You know, but that sometimes people can take something, and it's so easy to call something trauma when it's not. And I think that it's uh kind of goes back to what you were saying. It's unkind, it's unfair, and it's disrespectful to call something that's trauma for someone when it's not, and vice versa to it. That's not trauma. You're fine, you're fine. Just because if it happened to you, maybe it wouldn't have been traumatic. Right. And recognizing, you know, recognizing that the kids that you and I work with, they truly.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

It feels disrespectful for me to see people that we have in our society today. I mean, there is a savant-like ability that some people have to position themselves as a victim in everything. They could be at Chick-fil-A and somehow they're a victim. Oh true. And they are saying my pleasure, like that you're not a victim. But they, you know what I'm saying? Like there are people who can make themselves a victim in situ, it's mind-blowing to me. And I think that if you are so easily traumatized, if you are so easily victimized, you don't understand the perspective of what a real trauma is, and your world is way too small. And so being around real victims helps give you a perspective that your maybe former life would assume was a 10, and you're like, that's not even a one. Yeah. And so perspective is is really important. Um, and I think it distills things down to help you understand to not take yourself so seriously, to let things roll off, and to um not make mountains out of molehills.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Ugh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

And even the moments that you do, it's okay. Yeah. You know, it's okay, move on. Yeah, but it's not a trauma.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

It's but it's I was watching Survivor. It's my favorite show. You know that. Yes, I do know. I like don't I'm not a a show person and I'm not a TV person. I'm so ADHD, but I have literally never missed an episode of Survivor. Are you still? In all we're in the 50th season. Yes, we are. As in, like you have some like And one of the contestants um said on the show that being blindsided at tribal council in the vote was a trauma. And I was triggered by it.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Wait.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Yeah I'm sorry? Yeah. I'm like, this is not a trauma. To your point. Wait, were they joking? No, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

So the point of the show is traumatized. But they knew I believe he was even missing. No Ntiendo. Right. No, like that's very much a thing, whenever you know. Yes. Just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

So trauma, it's it's a very nebulous concept to unpack for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Well, I think speaking of another nebulous concept, yes. Attachment. Yes, trauma, attachment. I mean, Mac, how many times have we talked about attachment styles and what that looks like? Yeah. I mean, how many times do I feel like I'm diagnosing myself with my attachment styles? And because I want to get it right, I want to be healthy, I want to be well, and um walk alongside people to help them find you know healthy attachments because the enemy would love nothing more, nothing more than for you to be alone. Yes. And or I should say believe you are alone. Yeah. You know, and to believe you are alone. And be alone. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Because you're most vulnerable when you are siloed. Yeah. That is even in nature. Do you ever watch Nat Geo? The lions that are prowling around don't go to the leader of the herd, the strongest that's leading. They look for the outliers, the little kind of weak orphan scragglers.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Attachment style leads directly into that.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah. And with that, like as we were saying, with the enemy, he would love nothing more than to isolate you. Um, but so much healing happens in relationships. Yes. In healthy relationships, not perfect relationships. And I think that so often in this pop culture, the word toxic is used more than tissue paper. Right. I don't, I don't understand. Like it's just that's toxic. That toxic, that's this. That's unhealthy. That's the parent. I can't. You're being unkind to your toddler by letting her Maggie, we're about to offend some people.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

By letting her back attachment. Yes, attachment. But he'd love nothing more than to isolate us.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Right? And for us to be like, nope, I don't want anybody, I don't want anyone around me. Because a lot of times it's because I don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want to hurt anyone that I love, or I don't want to be hurt, or a mix of both. Or been there, done that. Yep, no, thank you. Right? Not worth it. Yeah, exactly. And they're like, What are you, who are you to tell me? Yeah. Let's bring in some relationships, let's bring in some healthy um peer relationships or mom and dad, whatever that looks like relationships. So with that, then trauma directly affects attachment. Yes. 100 million trillion percent. Yes. So in terms of defining how hop, how here at House of Providence, how we view attachment.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

What we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

So again, to not take for granted that people know where we're coming from or what what we're speaking of.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Um attachment theory really started in the 1950s with So it's not like brand new. Yeah. No, it's pretty much a man named John Bowlby. And he would say that there are four um attachment styles. So there's one sort of healthy attachment style, and then there are three others that are unhealthy. Okay. So the healthy attachment style is known as secure, a secure attachment style. That comes from a childhood where the data you're receiving from your caregivers, your parents, is telling you the world is safe, that your needs will be met, that you can rely on people, you can trust people, and it gives you a foundation that says I can cooperate with others, I can have a relationship with other people, I can share, receive, there's reciprocity. Um, and that's secure attachment. Then we have the three others, which are anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And those are the insecure attachments, if you will. So anxious would be someone who feels um very, very needy, very panicky in relationships, very um unloved. They're not good enough. They're always looking for you to acknowledge the safety of their relationship, that you love them, that you're there for them. You're constantly proving to that person, we're okay. Like, yeah, I'm here. I they're very anxious about their intimate relationships, friendships, those kinds of things. Then we have avoidant. Avoidant is this sort of silo, it it the name would express it. They're avoidant of intimacy, of close relationships. They want to do everything themselves. It's much easier if I just handle it myself than try to rely on you because you're probably gonna do it wrong or let me down anyway. Um, not safe to be in relationships. Being alone is the safest place, and they really pull away when intimacy starts to feel overwhelming to them. They back up.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

That's good for an independence. Correct. Right?

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Correct, yep. Yep. And then we have this sort of hybrid amalgamation of both that's disorganized, where people sort of ebb and flow in and out of this uh uh insecure, the anxious and the avoidant, and whatever the situation would call for from their perspective. And this comes from, I mean, excessive childhood trauma that they just can't quite get their bearings. I need you, I need to be alone, it's not safe to be with you, but I need you, but I don't want to be with you. And it's just a very exactly what it sounds chaotic, a disorganized attachment. So those are the four attachment styles. And again, all of these are developed through the I guess data collection that we do in our early years.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Where when you say early years, what are we saying? Birth to four.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Okay. Trust, mistrust.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Starts as simple as if I cry, my mom, my caregiver, will come and feed me.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Will come or hold me and hold and rock and soothe that internal voice, that internal dialogue that we get and we develop as we grow comes from the external voices that speak to us when we're little.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

You're sad, you can't regulate, you're crying, I come and pick you up, and I'm shh shh shh. It's okay. I got you. That then you develop a sense and ability to self-soothe, to regulate yourself. Well, we know the kids who come to us at you know, seven, eight, nine, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old here at House of Providence, they have not been soothed as little ones. They never got the shh, it's okay, it's okay. They cried, nobody regulated. And so part of our job is to replicate that internal voice by externally co-regulating and teaching them how to calm that amygdala down. You can soothe, you can calm, it's okay, it's okay. We got you, we got you. And eventually they can start to regulate themselves. But they're again, it's a can't when they come to us, not a won't.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

And it's often attachment plays a direct role in that.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Now, with that, specifically attachment, and honestly, Mag, there's so much in those four styles. I have like 17 questions. Maybe we should do another episode just talking, you know, like just talking about them, right? Especially when Really unpack them. Really unpack, because we all have an attachment style. Yes. It's not like, oh, I'm none of those. Yes. Well, you're all by that answer, I can probably guess which one you probably are. Yeah. If that's your answer. Exactly. And wanting to just talk through, okay, maybe if you want to look at your family members, okay, which ones are they? At least my kids, like what can I look at to help them, whatever. So we'll talk about that on another episode. Um, but with, I'd love to know, with trauma and attachment, the at least the two buzzwords that we're kind of talking about here. How would you say, let's bring it around? How would you say this would apply to us having choices? Right? We're talking about all these things, the trauma, that like all it's so heavy.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

It's heavy. And I think that some people do um, and I know I have, that's why I can that's why I can just say this so freely. I have not always done the perfect or greatest job at not at just sitting in the heaviness and recognizing that it's heavy and not just shoo-shooing it away. Yeah. And pretending like, no, there's not heavy, it's fine. No, it's heavy. Yeah. So come ready. Yeah. Come ready to attack this with the Messiah, with the modalities, with the education, with the Holy Spirit, and believing in your plasticity, believing in the redemption that God has, right? All of those things, um, when we're looking at all that heaviness, how does that play into choices? Right? Like how does trauma and attachment, how does that how can we say now choices apply to that?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

I think that everyone in the situation has to acknowledge that they have choices. The parent, the biological parent, the foster or adoptive parent, the child, the siblings. We all have choices, and we can make whatever choice we want. We can hold on to our maladaptive behaviors, we can choose the hard road of healing that is so painstakingly difficult. We we all have choices, and we get everything that goes along with those choices. And one of the most difficult things as a parent is to release the child with their choices. One of the most difficult things. Especially when you've done everything and you don't know how to give up on kids and you love them. And the child coming to the place where they finally acknowledge, yeah, I have a responsibility in this. It's not just what happened to me. Now I'm happening to my life, and I have some responsibility and choices. So I think it's really, really multifaceted. And again, remembering it's a journey, it's a continuum of healing and trauma, man, it does disrupt attachment.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

It's so bullying.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

It's such a bully, and it does disrupt attachment. And then attachment, when it is insecure in any of those three ways, it disrupts identity.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

But like we've said from the beginning, choices. The most pernicious lie I think we can attach to is that you don't have choices, you will always be broken, and there's nothing you or anybody else can do about it. You are the sum total of your trauma and what has happened to you. And we just don't believe that.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

We just don't believe that. We don't believe it's an easy road, we don't believe it's linear, and we don't believe it's clean.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

But we believe it's possible.

unknown 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

With the Lord. And I'm gonna give a quick caveat. If you have a therapist out there that uh uh ascribes to that belief that you will always no, get the heck out of Dodge, get out of there because that's not biblical, it's not grounded in theology. And I think that we could again, another episode.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yes, um, talking about therapy and how that can be the great triangulation if you don't have someone who agrees with the attachment to the parents and agrees with the journey toward healing and that the trauma is not the identity.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Truly, truly. Um so as we wrap up today, yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to say? I don't think so. I mean, uh I should say relevant to this right now, right? We'll talk forever. We'll talk the rest of the day. Um I'm so excited. I know I keep saying that, and it's just because I am. I am so excited for what this podcast is um hopefully going to bring healing and encouragement. And I hope that the viewers hear our hearts and that hear the encouragement, and that we um never want to come off as haughty or prideful or that we know, but we also know we're experts in what we're talking about. Yes. We know attachment, we know trauma, but we know the answer. Yes, and that's what we're Here to share is um the hope. The hope truly the true great hope.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

And and repair in all of these ways areas. The repair in all of these areas is possible.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

It is available.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Only possible with your choices and your and your cooperation. It all comes together. So I am so excited as we're going to unpack as the episodes unfold and seasons and whatever the Lord has, where we get to talk about the trauma that's so real, but the truth that is also so real, it colliding.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

And truth trumps.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yes. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

And someone who we're gonna have on our next episode, I'm very excited to really talk through what was the moment that she realized that her trauma was no longer in charge. That that was not her identity. And how was she able to extract herself from that and realize that she could build any life she wanted. And she has, and she's really, really incredible. And I'm excited for everybody to get to meet her.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Well, that's it for today's episode of Choices, where trauma and truth collide. So take one small step this week. It doesn't have to be everything, but one small step in the right direction. And remember, you are not alone. We're here. We'll see you next time.