Part 1: Structure Is Not Control

When a child has experienced trauma, structure can help them feel safe. But structure and control are not the same thing.

In Episode 4 of Choices, Maggie and Karemmy begin unpacking the pillars of attachment repair, starting with the difference between healthy structure and unhealthy rigidity. They talk about felt safety, power struggles, trauma-informed parenting, and the moments when a parent’s need for control can quietly get in the way of connection.

This conversation is practical, honest, and hopeful for parents, caregivers, and anyone walking with a child from a hard place. Healing is possible, but attachment repair does not happen through control. It happens through safe, steady relationship. 

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. While Maggie Dunn is a licensed clinical professional, the conversations on this podcast are not intended to provide therapy, clinical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know needs mental health support, please seek guidance from a qualified professional in your area. If you are experiencing a crisis or emergency, call 911 or contact a local crisis support service immediately.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, I'm Maggie, and I am so glad you're here. This is the Choices Podcast, where trauma and truth collide. This podcast is for parents, foster parents, caregivers, honestly, anyone walking alongside a child who's experienced trauma, and you want real understanding, not just surface level answers. We're gonna talk honestly about trauma, what it does, and what actually helps. So let's walk into today's conversation.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Well, here we are.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Here we are again at the table. Turning into one of my favorite tables. Yes. So nice.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

I'm excited to be back.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Me too.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

At the table. Another episode of what was once just this pipe dream that we would talk about. Yep. The Choices podcast, where trauma and truth collide.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yes. Yeah. Snaps again. Yes. Snapping again.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

So happy to dive into another episode. Yeah. Because we've talked about a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Are you kidding me? I was just thinking, I was actually reviewing my notes, just remembering what all we've been talking about. And we talked, we've talked about trauma, attachment, what our name is. We've gotten into the weeds a little bit and kind of pulled out of the weeds and gotten into the weeds a little bit again and then kind of pulled out again. Yeah. And we've talked about defining things, undefining things, attachment styles. And this is like what? Third, fourth episode, whatever. I don't even know. However, they just choose to edit it. Whatever episode this is, we are very early on. Yes. But we've already unpacked so much. Yeah. And I'm excited for today to really chat through even more in detail so that people can again leave feeling hopeful, hearing, and at the end of the day, knowing that there is redemption. Yes. Right? And everything. Yes. And everything in life, redemption through Jesus, though. Not through you. Not through me. Not through modalities. Truly through the Savior. Yeah. And I don't say that lightly. I don't just say that as a something you say. It's not a platitude, right? Like there is freedom in him. Yeah. There. And he wants that. He wants that for us. And I know that you share the same sentiment. We so desperate are like, come and taste and see that the Lord is good.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

And that freedom that you say, it occurs to me that when we acknowledge that someone else has choices, we can release them in a healthy way, release them to make their choices and not have this insatiable need to control everything. And we can release them to make their choices and accept everything that goes along with those choices. Yeah. And not try to be the mitigating vector all the time.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

And that's so hard. I feel like even as a parent, oh my goodness. As a mom, you know, parent in general, but I feel like there's like a different layer sometimes to mommy. Yes. When you say choices versus control, whereas, okay, what things do I need to control? What things do I need to just kind of back up and let them make their choices? That's an all-parenting, not just kids that come through such an extreme trauma.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Yeah, there's a releasing for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

And I'm excited to talk about maybe some like specific, I know we've talked about the pillars that we're gonna talk about today, yeah. A different pillars of attachment repair. But I'm excited to talk about getting more information and knowledge so that we can make better decisions and help and hopefully use the information that we're given to then discern.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

You know, and then to hear it's like we can get all this information. Yeah. And there's a lot of modalities out there. Yes. There's a lot of good modalities. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

I mean, just Google it. Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah, there's what TBRI, CBT.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

There's what the stages of change. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

There's, I mean, there's what, like six, seven, eight months, trauma focused CBT, EMDR, and and those are all things that we use and so many more. I made a list here: reality-based therapy, motivational interviewing. We have integrative approaches, we have pro-social building, mentoring, exposure therapy, not to mention the whole field of psychiatry, right? Is that even psychotropic medication? Yeah. So there's so much that we as a society throw at trauma. Yeah. There's a lot, and a lot of it works. It's really great stuff and empirically based, yes, evidence-based stuff. Um, and we believe in all of that at hop, and we really utilize even all of those that we just listed, all of those are at play in our clinical approach to trauma. So I don't want people to just think we're saying you have choices, make a good choice, and that's the end of it. We're not saying that. There's ways to approach it that are rooted in wisdom. Yes. And we subscribe to all of the Bible, but particularly Psalm 1, where it says, don't sit in the council of the ungodly. Yes. There's so much that we bring together when we're approaching trauma. And so I don't want people to get mixed up when we say pillars that are needed for attachment repair, that these are the modalities. These are not necessarily the modalities that we use, but these pillars are part of the attachment repair model that we've developed.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, absolutely. And as we talked about episode one, it works. Yes. It works. And I love that you mentioned the different modalities because not just are we using them, but it's not linear, number one. And number two, there it's kind of an amalgamation. Yes. You know, we try this and we don't always get it right. Right. We try TBRI. JK, back up. That did not work. Let's try this one. Let's try this one. Let's try this one. Yeah. You know what I mean? But we have found that utilizing them and discerning which one and when to you to use in which situation?

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Yep. Which with and with which kid. Which kid. Yep. With you can't TBRI violence. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

And how many people we have to do?

SPEAKER_03 6:12

We have to bring safety first. Yeah. And then you can reconnect through TBRI later. Yep. Once TB uh safety has been brought. So w we could digress into the the, I feel like the modalities that we use every day so easily and really unpack each one specifically. But I just think it's important to say that we have the utmost regard for all of these modalities that have proven time and time again for families. But pillars are something different.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yes, pillars are something completely different. And I know that we've labeled them the pillars of attachment repair.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

And just to kind of like do a quick reader's digest of our previous episodes, where we chatted through the four different attachment styles.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Right? And we're not going to go through that again. Go listen again. Yeah. You know, if somebody wants to hear about those, both those four. And something that we so we deeply believe and know deep in our souls. We've talked about this, right? Yeah. The hope that we have, the redemption that we have in Christ, and that we believe 100% in neuroplasticity and that healing is possible. Yes. Right? So tell me about these pillars of attachment repair. Well in in relation to the four attachment styles.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

And I think before we get to that, it's so important to note that in neuroplasticity and the idea that these traumatized brains can heal and that healing is possible and attachment repair and all these things, attachment repair only happens in the context of relationships.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

So I can't just go silo and be like, I'm gonna read all of these books, I'm going to do all these, I'm gonna do all of this, I'm just gonna No.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

That's well that's avoidant.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

That's kind of petrifying. Yeah for someone if you're what right? Right. Like you're just saying that. Yeah, like what if you're avoidant?

SPEAKER_03 8:07

What if you're but like so you have to really dig deep, and that's where really good therapy comes in to help you make the choices to let people in and pick good relationships that aren't going to further injure your attachment, but that will allow you space to try it out, maybe retreat a little bit, try it out again and heal. And I'm in some beautiful relationships currently that I have watched the attachment heal and go from forms of those three insecure attachment styles to a fully secure attachment style now. And it's beautiful, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

But you can only heal attachment in relationship.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Would you say, I'm curious, and you're talking about, you know, we've talked about the three insecure and the one secure attachment style. Is it possible that say you've moved from anxious, disorganized, avoidant to secure? Is it possible based on your choices you can move back?

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Oh, of course. Yeah. It it is.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Which I think is important to say too, right? Because I I didn't realize that. I didn't realize that you you can go back.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

So you have to be You could even grow up as a securely attached person, and based on some terrible relationship trauma as an adult or an emerging adult, you could move from secure to an insecure form of attachment. So they are definitely dynamic. They are not stabbing.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Okay. So in terms of choices, then you have to kind of it sounds like kind of like when we talk about exercise, right? Yes. You can't just, you know, I had amazing methodalism when I was in my teens. So I'm good to go. Yes. It's continual choices, right? And I feel like that's it's like a muscle.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Yeah. That's good to know. That's a good metaphor. That's good to know.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

So the pillars. So I want to hear all about that.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Okay. All right. So there are six that we would define as we have really developed this attachment repairing model. And and we'll talk today about the pillars of attachment repair in the context of parenting.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

So we're talking about attachment repairing parenting. But our listeners can sort of massage these pillars to allow them to fit into whatever context. If they're an adult and they need attachment repair in a relationship for a relationship assimilation, maybe they're finding they're burning through uh relationship after relationship and they just can't quite figure out. These are widely applicable relationally, even though we're talking specifically about these six pillars relative to parenting.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

And attachment repairing parenting. So parent-child relationship, but they can apply in other relationships. I think that's worth mentioning. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

So it's not just like, oh, this isn't relevant to me because I'm not a parent. Right. You know, say we don't want people to hear like, wait, you just I basically self-diagnosed myself the last episode, and now none of this is relevant to me. Doesn't matter. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

So the first one is rigid is not the same as structure. So kids who have experienced acute, maybe prolonged, maybe complex trauma, they need structure. And a lot of parents hear that and they're like, great, I'm gonna give structure and I'm gonna control everything. I'm gonna control the environment, I'm gonna control. And then the control group, by very nature, you're lessening the variables. You're knowing everything that's in there and you're in control. And that serves a parent in an unhealthy way. So when I'm saying rigid, well, when I'm saying a child needs structure, that is for felt safety for that child.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

So structure that makes their environment predictable, it makes their schedule predictable, it makes their relationships predictable, their interactions predictable. And you can't do that 100%. We live here in the world, there are variables, things happen. But as much as we can provide a structure that gives them a roadmap for what's coming so that there's a predictability that allows for felt safety, that's massive. So when I say one of the pillars is rigid is not structure, I think of um when my youngest two kids, who are now 11 and 12, were very, very little. They were, I mean, like we're talking one and two. Um, I had this play yard that I would put up in my living room that was adjacent to my kitchen. So when I'm cooking dinner and getting things going, they're in there playing and it was in the shape of a hexagon, and each part had a hinge. And so if I needed this hexagon to be in a different room, I could change the shape to fit our needs in that particular space. So it was a structure that could mold for what I needed. It was not rigid where if I tried to change the shape, it would just snap. And I think that we kind of in parenting, where we're trying to control all the variables, we can get that wrong and not have a willingness to use those hinges and allow things that no, we need everything just so we have control issues or whatever. Um, because when we lose that goal of structure for the child's felt safety and a willingness to pivot and a willingness to adjust what's happening to meet their needs, then we're not being rigid. Rigid serves the one implementing that structure.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Structure is going to help that child have that predictability. And so really it takes a lot of self-reflection. Like, wow, I might be rigid.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

And it makes me feel better because I'm controlling everything and I'm and and we're not empowering the child when we're rigid. So structure, yes, rigidity, no.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

You know, you mentioned felt safety a lot. Say I'm a parent. And trying to figure out because safety and felt safety are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Right? So, how can you discern what's safety versus them experiencing felt safety?

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Yeah, that's that's a great point. Um I'll say, for example, when uh children move into hop their first day, we have planned for it. We're so excited to welcome them in. We know that they're safe in our building. Right. They do not know that they are safe in our building. So they are literally safe, but their little psyches have not caught up and have not achieved felt safety. Very, very different. And we have to be patient with that. We have to understand um the mitigating factors, the environmental inputs, the triggers, past experiences. Um for example, surprising a child who has been through extreme trauma is not gonna hit the same.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

They they might not want to be surprised. Surprises will be metabolized as terrifying for them. And so really being trauma-informed is attuning to the felt safety needs of that kid. What is gonna make them feel safe, not what I know. I know you're safe. Get over it, you're safe, you're fine. That's not how to traverse trauma healing with someone. Felt safety is so important.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Okay. So when we're talking about structure versus rigid give me, I know you talked about this, you know, um my play yard yes, my playard, yes, your hexagon or your L or circle, however you wanted to do it. Let's say, practically speaking, yeah, as a mom, we have, you know, let's say I have a son who's been through severe trauma. Maybe he's a foster son or maybe he's an adoptive son, or whatever that may be, right? And let's say he's been in my home for two years, year and a half, two years, and I am finding these behaviors that continue, they continue, they continue, they continue, and I have implemented everything that I know to implement, right? And I've done some hard work and I'm like, no, I I think this is structure, whatever. How can I know what I need to remove so that's something that's rigid versus something that's structure? I'll give an example. So let's say that we're doing homework, okay? I need you to get your homework done. You have to get your homework done, you have to get your homework done. At what point have I made it so um willy-nilly that now I have no, there is no structure either.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Do you know what I mean? Like you know, I feel like I'm fumbling through this question, but hopefully that's it's helpful to say rigid versus structure. But if is there such a thing as having so much structure, then then you don't have control of the situation at all. And the kid has control.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Oh, do you know? Do you know what I mean? Yes, for sure. And so I think when you're looking at structure and you're trying to determine, is this too much structure? Am I making this huge power struggle battle over homework?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

And sometimes you have to, I find for me as a parent who has parented a number of children with pretty extreme trauma, to sometimes I have to zoom out, and and I've gotten it wrong a lot, but I find that I have to like zoom out to the macro and say, I'm treating this homework like this is a hill to die on.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

And so I need to step back and say, is this gonna age well? How much in the grand scheme does this homework sheet matter? And so there's times where you are not gonna, you know, cry uncle and surrender, but you're saying, like, okay, we're in a power struggle. I there's times where I've just said, okay, here's your homework, and I'm not gonna fight with the kid because relationship is more important. Do it or don't do it. He if he's in like third grade, fourth grade, this is not affecting adulthood. Yeah. This is not in the grand scheme of things. So there's times where you just like, okay, this is not the hill to die on. Yeah. I also find it helpful to talk to people around you and get other perspectives who understand what you're doing. Okay. It could be a therapist, it doesn't have to be. I think too many people are utilizing therapists where they should have a friend. Yeah. So just can you just have a friend and say, this is making me crazy? I the homework. And they they might be able to give you, like, hey, have you thought of this? And so you have to allow input um from people who you trust and people who are not triangulators. We can talk about that later. But um it's really, really important that you don't call it structure when it's really just a power struggle. And you are, you have to be right, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

So what does a power struggle look like?

SPEAKER_03 19:53

A power struggle looks like I need control and I'm triggered.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

So is it what you say, like parenting back in the day, when it would be like, because I said so? You have to do this because I said like there's no rhyme or reason, and not just saying because I said so, but almost like that's the heart stance. Yes. Just because I have to be in control of the situation.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Yeah. Okay. I also find a way to avoid power struggles is to make a statement, not ask a question that requires a response. Because anytime you can give that, that's giving the power over so that they can withhold something that they know you're asking for.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

So when you're asking a question, I just make a statement.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

So instead of, let's say, a power struggle over hygiene, I need you to go get in the shower. You're gonna prove to me that you're I'm gonna smell your hair. I'm da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I, you know, that power struggle. Have you showered? Are you in? All the questions and the back and forth. I might just say something about you really should shower tonight, but if you don't want to, that's fine. You're the one that will smell that way or what, you know, that kind of a thing. But so make a statement, this is and leave it there. And there's certain ages, again, we don't have time to break it down here, but what you're gonna do, like zero to seven, is not the same as what you're gonna do responding eight to twelve, which is again completely different than how you're gonna respond, you know, 12 or 13 to 18. It all requires different responses. There are different goals, there are different needs. And so this it's it's way more of a conversation, but um if you are feeling escalated and a need for control, that is a really good indicator that you're looking for rigidity and not just structure.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

That's good. I'm I love that you said that because that's helpful, yeah. We're hearing like, and there's so many situations where you think you have structure, but you're actually being rigid. Right. You're being rigid versus you know, yeah, structure. So it's good that like that check. Yes. You know, I'm the type of person that I love to say, okay, now what? What do I do? What's like my takeaway that I can do for myself? So just that check to say, okay, if I if this is coming from a need for control, but again, you have to have those people around you that will call that out if you can't see it in yourself. Yeah. Because sometimes people aren't self-aware or they don't want to be self-aware.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

And people that have walked it.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Because if you have not parented a child who has pretty profound trauma or attachment issues, y you know, it's sort of that man in the arena that we hear about.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Well, that's it for today's episode of Choices, where trauma and truth to lie. So take one small step this week. Doesn't have to be everything, but one small step in the right direction. And remember, you are not alone. We're here. We'll see you next time.