Part 2: Can't Versus Won't

You can't force a child to attach to you. But you can build the kind of safe, steady relationship where attachment becomes possible, and you can guard it from the things that quietly work against it.

In Episode 5 of Choices, Maggie and Karemmy continue unpacking the pillars of attachment repair: the difference between can't and won't, setting boundary stones around the relationships in a child's life, catching the moment connection starts to wither long before it dies, why safe physical touch matters, and why you sometimes have to subtract to add connection. They close by walking through what healthy attachment usually looks like, and why it gets so much harder when a child missed that bond early on.

This conversation is practical, honest, and hopeful for parents, caregivers, and anyone walking with a child from a hard place. Attachment isn't repaired through pressure or control. It's built slowly, protected carefully, and grown through safe, steady relationship.

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. While Maggie Dunn is a licensed clinical professional, the conversations on this podcast are not intended to provide therapy, clinical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know needs mental health support, please seek guidance from a qualified professional in your area. If you are experiencing a crisis or emergency, call 911 or contact a local crisis support service immediately.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hi, I'm Karemi, and I'm so glad you're here. This is Choices for Trauma Insurance Collective. This podcast is for parents, foster parents, caregivers, or honestly anyone who is walking alongside a child who has been through severe trauma. And truly they're seeing all of the issues that come with that, and they want real understanding, real life practical answers, not just surface levels. So here we talk honestly about what trauma is, what it does, and what actually helps. So with that, let's dive into today's conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

And it's like if you haven't been in there with mud on your face and really been in the trenches, you don't understand.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Thanks, but notes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

And I think that we really find ourselves on one team or the other in terms of rigid or extremely permissive. And structure in the middle is the goal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Love it. So what would you say the second pillar is?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

The second pillar of attachment repair. So we have being uh structured to benefit the child, not rigid. And then secondly, we have to determine can't versus won't.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And it's so this one is sounds like choices. Sounds like choices. Right? Or maybe it's not a choice. Right. And so really determining that with laser-focused care is so critical because I think it's criminal to ask something of someone that they cannot do. Whether that is because of a disability or that is because of a mental health issue, if there's some sort of a diminished capacity that renders you incapable of doing something, and people treating it as though it's a choice, that is so cruel. That is really, really cruel. But I think it is extremely disrespectful and profoundly unhelpful to treat someone as though they can't when it's just a won't. So, for example, let's say my son breaks his foot, compound fracture, he is very injured. For me to say, come on, let's go. We're running a 5K as a family. He can't. He is injured. He cannot do that. And trauma is not as visible. We don't put a cast on our trauma. The Lord binds us up, thank God. He does that and he binds up our wounds, but we can't see that binding up the same as we can see a cast. Um it would be criminal to ask someone with a soul that is so broken to do something that they can't do. Um, walking on that healing journey and to treat them, then when my son gets his cast off, and maybe he still wants to sit in a wheelchair four years later, and I'm saying we need to get off our buns. Yeah, we are not broken. We're even if you limp, what can you do? And um I think it's important to um know a theorist calls it the zone of proximal development, knowing what is that zone and really calling people to their highest, not outside of that zone, because then you become someone who's asking them to do something they can't do, but the highest that they can do. And we call it at hop your personal best. Yeah, everybody's goals are different, right? And what would get someone to the next level and that huge celebration that we do is different for each kid. It's so individualized because personal best is very, very different. Yeah. You know, depending on cognitive limitations and trauma history, and there's so many things that go into it, but you really determining with your child what is can't and what is won't.

SPEAKER_04 4:30

Um I think but how? Well, like how you say determining that right, like that sounds great. I think it's a can't, I think it's a won't. And then sometimes you have expert, right? Expert, like savant level could be on mensa manipulator. Yes, yes, truly. I mean, I have times where I'm just like, I'm thinking about it for like 30 minutes. Yeah. So I sometimes I still don't have the answer, right? So how do you know? Was I just manipulated? Yes. Can they, won't they? Yeah, what where are we at?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

You know? Yeah, it's it is, it's it's a very, very difficult thing. And that's why I was saying, like, you have to be able to have that laser-focused care and understanding. And I think something that has really helped me become very adept at this, and I'm a very visual person. And so I grew up with a sister that's only 12 months younger than me, and her name is Becca, and she has Down syndrome, and she is one of my best friends. We're very, very close. And it was very easy for me to see growing up. Oh, Becca can't do that. I'm gonna do that for her all the way through our teen years, driving. Becca can't do that. I could get my driver's license, I got it. I would drive her places, and so it really helps me to have this filter of what is a can't and what is a won't. And again, I believe it is so unkind to, and we use this phrase frequently, the soft bigotry of low expectations, to treat it like a can't when it's a won't. I I have more respect for someone than that. No, you you can do this. I want people empowered to the highest level of their zone of proximal development.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

I love that. You feel like as a parent, you could do almost like a almost like a litmus test, if you will, or something like that. It's especially let's say a kid is new in my home. Yeah, right? And it's like I can't quite figure it out where where they're at. You know, could you do some type of litmus test? Like, yeah, okay, well, if you can brush your teeth, yeah, then you can what some you know what I mean? Like you can say, you can not punch me, right, but then you can you keep punching your sister? Yes. Right? So where is you know, as as a parent, like what is something that we could do early on to kind of ascertain that? Yeah. We don't really know yet.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Well, with your example, if someone is brand new in my home, I think all I'm trying to do is back to that beginning. What we talked about is let them achieve felt safety.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Like just let them exhale. You're not trying to how hold them to the highest zone of growth. Yeah. You they they probably just need to sleep. Yeah. And have comfort food. Yeah. And have you close. That's so good.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

And quiet because it's easy just to think like, well, I want to do this, and so we go through other pillars, but I want to make sure that they're this, they're that, and just yeah, sometimes maybe forgetting. Yes. As parents, first things first.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Stable.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

They have no idea. First stable, then the growth. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Felt safety first.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

And when you get to know a kid, you'll know. Yeah. My grandson's three, he bamboozles me all the time. But I think we're supposed to be bamboozled as grandparents. But my kids, I'm like, no, you need to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

So you're like, that's that's yeah, that's not a can. Yeah. That's yeah, okay, that's helpful. Yeah. And just to know, I think also as a parent, like, it's nothing, it's not permanent. No. You figure you know, you figure it out, and you have people in your corner that can help you uh see those things whenever you can't.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

And situationally, you are not going to destroy a child if you err on the side of grace.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Now, if you're always permissive and you know, I'm erring on the side of grace because you want things to be easier for you. Now that's just selfish. That's another podcast.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

It's not even an episode, it's actually another podcast. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

And that's not what I'm talking about, you know, sort of a sloppy, lazy permissiveness. But if you're in the situation, you're like, oh, I can't figure out like, should I just hold them to a higher account? How what should I do? Maybe the Lord just wants them to experience his grace. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

I love that. I think it's something we could all use more of. Oh, yes. You know, because who is it that said it? Is it Maya Angelo? I'm so if I got it wrong, sorry. To everybody, someone will correct us on the comment, will correct me on my comments, whatever. Who said people won't always remember what you said, but they'll always remember how you made them feel. Yes. And ain't that the truth? Truly. Right? You leave a sermon, you leave hanging out with somebody. Wow, that was so you know what I mean? Like we don't talk, well, you know, we talk about how we felt, how someone what they did to your self-esteem. Yeah. What they did to how, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

How you feel treated by the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Yes, exactly. So I feel like that's something also as apparent that it's important for us to recognize okay, well, is my is my goal to make this child feel incredible?

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

And feel empowered.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

Or is it to make them into my little robot? Compliant. Yep. Yep. I want you compliant because I have to have control and because you know, but it's you know, it's a neat clean cut in a perfect little belt. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

That's such a good point.

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Such a good point.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

So, with that then, because we're talking about clean cut and whatever, but there's also boundaries. Yes. Right? It's kind of what we're talking about, all the modalities. Yeah. You hear this, and but there's always a butt.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, but it leads to this, it leads to this, but it leads to that. So what about it's like an infomercial. But wait, there's I know, but wait, there's more, but wait, there's more, you know. We are not gonna sell anybody knives.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

No, no, that's nothing, no.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

But that is the third pillar. In uh the book of Proverbs, there's a verse that talks about not letting people move the ancient boundary stones. Uh it's in chapter 22, verse 28. And that is actually extremely relevant to the relationships that you allow into that child's life. If we're talking about attachment repairing parenting, we when we are working on that attachment and allowing it to become healthy and strong and solid, we have to be so aware of the boundary stones that we have for others and how they treat the boundary stones that we as the parent have put up. For example, if you know what you've been working on with your child, and there's a reason you're saying, no, I need you to complete this task. And someone else comes in and sees the struggle, and they're like, it's not a big deal. Let them this or there. It's that very, very enabling. That person is attempting to move your boundary stones. They don't know what your goal is, they don't know what you're working on. There's a haughtiness to insert yourself into what I am trying to do with this child who has experienced so much trauma. I'm working on attachment, I'm working, I'm working on so many things. And so how others interact with your child is something you have to be acutely aware of in what you allow in their life because it will undo when they are justifying the child not cooperating with you. They're moving these boundaries. Oh, that's not that big of a deal. Oh, don't you think you can let that go or this or whatever the thing is? Oh, let them do this sleepover, or why can't they go on such and such a retreat? And they have no idea, and it's really none of their business what the proclivities of that child are that maybe you're protecting that child from, or maybe you're protecting others from because you know what your child struggles with and how they may act out on other children. And so I don't, I, I just don't believe I owe these people explanations on what I know the Lord has called me to do with the child. And that's not to say I don't have a tribe that I do give explanations to, people that do speak into that, people that do spend time with my children alone without me, people that I trust, but they know how to ask me a question without questioning my authority in front of that child. Yeah. And so triangulation is such a huge thing, but boundary stones that you know you've put in place that are non-negotiables to keep your child safe, to keep that attachment going, to keep other children around you safe. All the things that you've done with wisdom, um, people that would come in and willy-nilly attempt to move those boundary stones in a in an ignorance, I I don't have time for that. I don't have time for that. And those people you have to be very careful of and probably um don't mean harm, yeah, but the intention behind it does not determine if it causes harm.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

If I backed my car over someone's child, I didn't mean it, but I still cause harm.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

So the intention isn't the issue, and I need to be very aware as a parent of who I'm letting around and watching those boundary stones.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

And we've talked about that. The intention of being like, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to. And genuine, I mean, this is gonna be an unpopular opinion. But to me, if all you can say is I didn't mean to, yeah, you are obfuscating responsibility and accountability.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Truly. Like that's in a friendship, in a relationship, in a marriage, and whatever that may be. Yep. But as you're talking about the boundary shows, I keep thinking, so that means some hard decisions need to be made. Yes. Right? Yep. And how do you make those hard decisions? Let's say it's a family member.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

It's a family member that how, you know, how can you as a parent make those hard decisions? Is it one of those things that you need to decide before it happens? Yeah. You need to have canned responses. Do you you know what I mean? Like, what are maybe some like canned responses that you can give? Well, you don't mind. I don't know what you're gonna give them. So I'm like, are we gonna filter? I'll give them one.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Okay, I'll give them the appropriate one that's say for the podcast. Okay. Thank you for your input. That's so benign. Period. There is not an ellipsis, there's not a colon, add more. We're done. Yeah. Thank you for your input. And then we're done. And I keep it moving. And I'm skirting the child, and canned responses have probably saved my salvation.

unknown 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Two different situations, just to make sure. That's good. And I it's probably important too that you talk about it with your partner. Yeah. Right? That your spouse and you are on the same page.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Especially like when one might not understand. Maybe one parent has done a ton of research with trauma.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

And the other one's just like, I'm along here, I'm here with you, but I don't have maybe the the time or the knowledge that you have, and it's how important it is that you co-parent.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

And I think in this age of social media and we sort of put everything on display, we're unwittingly believing ourselves and other people start to believe about us that I owe an explanation for everything.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

I don't owe you an explanation.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

And so don't give one.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Maybe it's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_04 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

You know?

SPEAKER_04 16:40

True. And walk away. There is walk away power. Yes, literally. Literally walk away. Just walk away from a situation. Walk away from I think that can even be taken like to walk away from a relationship. Yes. Whatever that looks like, especially you have set boundary stuff. You know, like you said, your boundary stones, and they can move. We can move boundaries based on where the child's at, and circumstantially. Yes. You know, and environmentally. It depends, you know, it depends. There's so much to do. But do not be afraid to make a change. And don't make your job harder than it needs to be. It's already so hard. Yeah. It's so ridiculously hard.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

And most of the time, the child is not confused.

SPEAKER_04 17:20

Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. We'll just leave that there.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

But the child is not confused. So when I'm saying thank you for your input, and we shuffle away, they are in the car cracking up. And they're having monologue about it later because they're very aware. Yeah. You know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

And like you said, when people, even if they don't mean to, and some I mean, let's just say it, Mag.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Sometimes at church.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Are these all yours? Yes. Are they just like, don't, why are you asking? Why are you just being a child?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Well, and the church is looking for little bitty mission trips all the time. And just maybe live your life in kinship and servitude without having to like do a can drive for it to go to the Dominican. Like, can you j my and my child is not going to satiate sort of your need to like do a quick ministry on a Sunday morning. And it can be really um damaging to attachment. It can be really, really damaging.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

I'm so grateful though that we do have, you know, it's kind of basically takes me back to structure versus frigid. We need to control, we need control. This is something that we can control as parents.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 18:37

Specifically, which boundary stones and which relationships are we going to um allow. Yes. And to and that's just because you're talking about relationships and you talked about adults, but that includes friendships. Yes. As well.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Correct? And being careful with, and sometimes that means you might need to move schools. Yes. That may you need to, you know, and you have to be willing to make those hard decisions for the future of your child for those kids. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

It's not forever.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

It's not, yeah. Yep. And be willing to make those hard decisions.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Let the attachment repair, build, and develop to its full strength that it's able to.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Yeah. Yeah. You know, we keep talking about um the you know, the different pillars of attachment repair, and I it just dawned on me. Is the goal of all of these that they are first attaching to you as a parent? Correct. Okay. So it's like it's like, oh look, they're attaching great to their sibling. This is so good, but they still are cursing me out and giving me like as we say, a left hook.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yep. You know? Yeah, it is. It's so, so important. And and you have to be aware of that and how is it developing and is it developing? And I think I would say after, and this isn't one of the pillars, but it's important to note, I would say after about age eight, mm, depends on, you know, the the brightness of that child. It could be a little younger, it could be a little older, but around eight, it takes two yeses for that adoption to work. Tell me about that. So I have to do what I need to do to say yes to that child, bring them to my home. And the child has to be able to give their yeses and their cooperation, their behavior, their willingness to assimilate in. Not perfection, that's not what I'm saying. But you can tell if the child is willing to safely assimilate into your home.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

That's so, yeah, I love that. That's great because I think so often talk about can't versus won't. Right. Right? They're all just kind of it's a 14-year-old that's refusing to cooperate with any of your rules. They're not, they can say all day long that they, you know, they want me in your home, that they don't want to be moved. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

But their actions, yeah, you know, behavior is so important to that's in every relationship, right?

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Not just in talking and trauma and attachment.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

You know? Yep. So okay, I just that just dawned on me. I felt like I was like, just to make sure, like we're talking about caregiver and child, you know. So that was what? Three?

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Three, yep. Just three. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Just halfway, Meg. Yes. And we have so much to go, but this is such good stuff. Yes, such good stuff. Okay. So number four. I know that we have talked about this numerous times. Yeah. Wither versus die. Yes. So that's I can just think of so many pictures immediately, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

I love gardening. I love houseplants, I love my outdoor gardens, I have perennial gardens and annual gardens. And they're flowers.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

They're beautiful, I cannot relate. I try. It's just, I don't know. Just not my gifting.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

And I even love veggie gardens and all of the things. Um, if you are looking at attachment and you're working on it, um, you're working on it with the child, you're working on it in a healthy way, using these pillars, using the resources available to you, I think. That we need to remember the attachment isn't just going to die. It will wither before it's just gone. Any attachment style. Any attachment. Okay. And and so it's not instant, it's not going to be this like tragedy, but it's going to be slow in its growth, but it's also going to be slower in its death. And so I hope that brings some semblance of hope to people. So if you're watching for the wither, you're going to notice when it wilts. Way before, you know, I come home from vacation and I'm like, oh, that one fern in my sunroom, I forgot to stick the stick of where you fill it with water and you put it in and it slowly goes in. And I come home and it is not wilted. It is not withered. It is brown and crunchy. It's gone. That did not just happen, you know, like that. I have forgotten to tend that. And if you're a parent who's doing all of these things and paying attention and being mindful and pouring into your child and pouring into the attachment and keeping them safe and all of that, and you're mindful of that wilt, you are going to notice when it starts to wilt, even before the wither, way before the death. And so you might see things like they're very edgy with you, or they are avoiding you. They're coming home from school and straight up to their room and doing you're you're starting to notice the changes, and we're not gonna then make demands. You come down from your, we're gonna say, huh, that looks like a little bit of a wilt. I wonder what's going on. And it might be something as simple as preteens. Literally. And they want some space. And so we don't need to pathologize everything.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

But I do think if we're very careful and we're noticing, we're going to see the wilt and we're gonna investigate. Do they have a new relationship, a new friend, a new is something, are they just hitting puberty and some things are budding? We know that a lot of mental health things become much more pronounced during puberty, especially for young women. So there's all the things to look at, but I just think we need to demystify a little bit, like I have to fix their attachment, or Tuesday, this is good, this happened, and now it's gone forever. It's not. You'll notice the wilt before the wither, and it's not just gonna be gone. Yeah, you know, it's but you have to be attuned, right?

SPEAKER_04 24:44

You have to be attuned. You have to know your kids and what maybe for one, it right, it looks different. I remember growing up for my for me. Yeah if I when I got in trouble, no TV, and I was like, oh, give me the chair. The chair, I want to watch my shows, I want to whatever. My brother, you can't read books. And to him, I was like, what, please? Like that sounds like a punishment to me. I don't want to sit here and read 17 books. But knowing the difference of your kids too, because Wither versus Die, it's not just one child. Yeah, you know, and one thing that's that I this particular pillar that I really appreciate is I feel like this is something that you can utilize even with children who haven't endured trauma. Yes, just I feel like that's just like a parenting, yes, a parenting note, you know, to be like, okay, in terms of learning and your preteens and withering versus dying, and you have to be astute, you have to be aware, and you have to know your child.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

And just because you notice it doesn't mean you need to fix it.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Because we can even address it right away, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

We can get nitpicky.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

And that will kill attachment faster than anything if you're constantly nitpicking and you cannot let anything go. Um, and so really noticing where things are wilting, and I don't go and, you know, punish a plant or do I simply nurture it. I water it. So I don't even have you're pulling away, and this is happening. Just water it. Yeah. I notice. So let me do something fun with that child. Let me pour some nurture, some water, some fertilizer into that relationship instead of trying to nitpick or why are you doing this, or why are what it needs some water.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

That feels like gold, Mag, because how often do we want to? I know that I want to just talk because I'm such a verbal processor. Yeah. I just want to talk it out. I want to hash it out. You know, and even in um friendships or marriage, some people are like, you know what? I actually need 10 minutes before I come back to this conversation. You know, where I'm somewhere like, we're gonna, we're we're gonna we're not moving from this, but learning, and that's unkind. We can't let the sun go down right now. It's gonna take down at 115.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

So we have one minute to fix it right now. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

But learning, you know, like knowing that, and I think we have to be so aware of ourselves as well as parents and recognizing okay, do I need them to feed something in me right now?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Yeah, you know, because that's not fair to the child, you know. Nope, that's so good. I love that because it is widely applicable.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

Um, anything else with weather versus eye? No. I know the next thing that we've talked about, and we've talked about this for a long time because you know, there's love languages out there, there are very violent children, yeah, there are some that are very anti-touch, whatever that may be. Yeah, so I'm really excited about this pillar because I think that it can there's two lanes. People are like, no, absolutely not. You could never.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

Or you need to. So tell us about physical connection as a pillar for attachment repair.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

When you have decided to be the parent of a child who's endured trauma through adoption, you have covenanted just like a marriage, you have entered a covenant that you before the Lord are their parent. And um, I think this could apply to foster care if it's a longer-term placement and those kinds of things as well. But physical connection is the fertilizer for attachment repair. This is so important for children. They need safe touch, they need to be brought close, they need to, and and I've had children who I know everything inside of them. They want closeness and a hug, but they'll sit there and repel it, and their body is, and then they'll just kind of melt. But I have to find ways that I'm giving safe physical touch frequently, predictably, consistently, and again, intimacy in any relationship is not rapid. It takes time to build a relationship, and it's no different with a parent and a child. You can't just like, hey, let's be close. It that would be nice if that if you just picked it, but it takes time. You have to build it in that that consistent and slow walk toward intimacy with that child. It has to have physical connection. Now, if you have a child who maybe has been through a lot of sexual trauma, or you have a child who's been through a lot of physical abuse, or you have a daughter with the adoptive father, or the son with the adoptive mother, it is so important that you don't make excuses and say, okay, well, he's the dad. Never touch her, because that is sending a message. Oh, you're a very sexualized being, and dad is not comfortable around you, and you're reinforcing things about that young lady. Um, and so you you do it in a safe way. You're doing a side hug, you're being very intentional about where and how and placement, but it is so important to you're saying you're my girl, you're my daughter, in a very safe, kind, physical touch. It um it also builds that sensory motor neural loop in the child, you which is just the fancy way of saying, like, do the thing before you have memory, muscle memory for it. Keep doing the thing, keep doing the thing, the hugging, the sitting, we're watching a movie, we're gonna sit real close, and we're, you know, not I wouldn't do under one blanket, where we have a very trauma-informed approaches to all those things, and and but build the sensory motor neural loop for them, that physical touch and connection and the chemical releases in the brain cannot be replicated another way in a healthy way. Yeah. And so pull them close and let them experience your touch in a joyful and kind way. But physical connection is absolutely a must in attachment repair.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

So I'm gonna push back here, Matt. Okay, you're saying that, right? You ready? So I'm gonna push back because there's also a lot of modalities, therapists, just people with opinions, yes, just random people on the street. That if a kid you're coming in, don't touch me! Yeah, don't I don't like to be touched, don't ever touch me. Yeah, just that. Yeah. You know, people will say, well, you need to respect their boundaries versus like how so what do you say to that to a kid that's just like, don't touch me? Yeah, just in general.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah. I would say you will know if that child is being triggered and that's not the moment.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

So it shouldn't be all the time, constant. I mean, I'm not carrying my 12-year-old around in like a a kangaroo pouch style. But there are times and likely when they are escalated or aggravated, probably not the time to work on physical connection. Right, right. Or they're gonna physically connect. Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

But it's good to say that because again, we've talked about this. Like, we'd never want to assume that someone knows this just because you and I know. Well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

And I think I'm even like that. If I'm frustrated with Jay, he thinks it's hilarious to come and like try to pick me up, or I'm like, stop touching me. It does it just doesn't land. No, it's not no, it doesn't land. And so I think that's a really good point that you bring up. I think that is so critical. Um, if that's their stance forever and always, and that's their baseline, I would suggest really working with a good therapist to talk that through before you just go for it, like, no, I'm touching you.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

To okay, what are steps we can take toward that and why and how is it helpful?

SPEAKER_04 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

And healing.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Really for them. Because the reality is physical connection is part of life.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:21

So they're going to seek physical connection negatively or positively. There's no neutral. Yes. They're either going to be looking for fights constantly, physical fights, yes, or the love. Yes. And the, you know, you don't have to be a touchy-feely parent.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

You know, because some people, again, all the love languages, right? Well, physical touch isn't me. What would you say to that parent? That's like, I'm not really comfortable. I would like the side hugs.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

I would say it's not about you.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

It's not about you. Yeah. This is what a child needs. I remember going to um visit a child in a psychiatric uh hospital, and and this particular child had lived there for about nine months, and the child looked feral, hair matted, and I mean it was it was wild. And they said, I if do you want like an orderly to go in there with you? They're really aggressive. It's not really safe. We don't ever go in that room. And she was eight. And I said, No, I I'm good. And I had brought her um some fries and uh stuffy. And it was, you know, when squishmallows were like all the rage, and I knew she loved giraffes. So I kind of ascertain information before I go, and so I had found a squishmallow giraffe on Amazon. And um I remember she was getting a little aggressive and she got on the floor, and so I just got on the floor next to her, and she scooted a little bit closer to me, and so I kind of stayed. She scooted closer within about 10 or 15 minutes. I just put my arms around her and held her, and she just laid her head on my chest, and somebody opened the door and said, There's no touching allowed, and I just kicked the door shut. And she kind of gave a chuckle, like but she just kids need to be touched. Yeah, kids need to be touched. And you'll never get me off of that soapbox. Yeah. Kids need to be touched, especially when you want to heal.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Yeah. And repair broken attachment. Yep. Right? And secure attachment, avoidant, anxious, whichever one we're talking about. Yeah. But we're talking about all these things that are like add this, do this, don't, you know, all there's it can feel kind of like suffocating. Like, okay, I need to add this, I need to add this, I need to change this. Now I need to touch them. I know I need to touch them. Okay, wait, wait, wait, who how but who's touching, like what kind of touching? Let me make sure that I'm touching. Okay, I need to change to make sure I'm structured versus rigid. Okay, make sure I have all these boundary stuff. But what if I don't have like the the space or the margin for that? Like there's soccer, there's gymnastics, there's basketball, there's church, there's work, there's therapies out my ears. Yes. Like, how do you just very practically 24 hours a day? Yeah, that's all we all get. Yeah. You know, so how do we practically even do that?

SPEAKER_01 36:19

And you just teed me up perfectly for the final pillar, perfect number six, which is you have to subtract to add connection. Okay, you have to subtract to add connection. So you have to for a season, it might be one year, it might be four years. Childhood is short, yeah. And the years will reveal what the days might not reveal.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Ain't that the truth?

SPEAKER_01 36:51

And so you have to determine that it's worth it, number one, attachment. Yeah. What is the return on this investment? And so less things in your life, less relationships, less parties, less activities, so that you make room for attachment. If you are going, going, going, and that child is always in the car seat and pulled from you know, pillar to post, and you're go, go, go. Now we're at church, and now we're at the travel basketball, and now we're here, and oh, we've got this party and these grad things, and dah da. You might have to, for a season, slow your life down to make room for something that you know is huge, huge attachment is massive, but if we don't make room for the growth, it's it's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. You have to make room for the slow pace of life and the mundane and the predictability so that attachment can happen and grow.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

For how long?

SPEAKER_01 38:02

It's different with every child. Um finding a therapist that really specializes in attachment is is helpful. Um, but it's so, so important because the normal attachment cycle for a child, let's say typical, I won't say normal, typical is a better word, that a child that I give birth to and grows up functionally with me as their parent, they in those first young, young years, three and under, maybe even two and under, they are attaching. They are totally attaching. They need me, I'm meeting those needs. They're learning that the world is safe, they can trust me, they're making their way through this data gathering of attachment development. And by five or six, I mean, they are attached. And that's the beauty of little kids and elementary age kids, is they still think like the parent is right and they believe you, and you're smart, and then you're funny and you're cool, and you're and then you go into sort of that preteen teen where then they detach, which is also healthy. They should be coming, be entering that independence. And when you don't allow it, that's called enmeshment, and that is toxic. Well, that's another issue. But they should attach, then go through this period of detaching and figuring out who they are, independent of the parents, what are my opinions, what do I believe, what who am I, and detaching is appropriate. And then the most beautiful thing happens when your child is an adult and they've attached and then detached, they will circle back and connect. Not because they need you, but because they want you. And when we adopt or become into relationship with a child that we are now raising, whether guardianship or kinship or adoption, and the attachment phase never got to happen, we're jumping right into detach, independence, leave me be. And that's really tricky, and that's why these six pillars are so important to keep in front of us and to consider.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Yeah. All right, well, that's it for today's episode of Choices. Will you take one small step this week? It doesn't have to be everything, just something. And remember, you're not alone in this. We'll see you next time.