Part 3: Cheap Imitations

You can do everything right to build attachment and still watch it quietly come undone. In this final part, Maggie and Karemmy name the three things that sneak in and tear down the connection you're working so hard to build.

In Episode 6 of Choices, they call them cheap imitations for intimacy: the enabling acquaintance who has no skin in the game but plenty of opinions, pornography as a lonely substitute for real relationship, and the therapist who triangulates instead of partnering with the parent. They talk through how to spot each one, how to hold a boundary without owing anyone an explanation, and what questions to ask before you trust a clinician with your child's healing.

This conversation is practical, honest, and hopeful for parents, caregivers, and anyone walking with a child from a hard place. Children who have been through trauma deserve real relationship, not a substitute for it. They deserve to be known, protected, and kept close.

Disclaimer: The content shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. While Maggie Dunn is a licensed clinical professional, the conversations on this podcast are not intended to provide therapy, clinical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you or someone you know needs mental health support, please seek guidance from a qualified professional in your area. If you are experiencing a crisis or emergency, call 911 or contact a local crisis support service immediately.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Karemi, and I'm so glad you're here. This is Choices for Trauma Insurance Collective. This podcast is for parents, foster parents, caregivers, or honestly anyone who is walking alongside a child who has been through severe trauma. And truly they're seeing all of the issues that come with that, and they want real understanding, real life, practical answers, not just surface levels. So here we talk honestly about what trauma is, what it does, and what actually helps. So with that, let's dive into today's conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I love that you really kind of played out for us the pathway, the typical pathway.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Typical, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Because it is not the child's fault. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And finding these pillars, I'm hopeful, as we as we heard about them, and that we can identify when to use which one and making sure we we need all of them, right? First felt safety and making sure that we are putting the child also in position to receive. Yes. And giving them wins. Setting them up. Setting them up for wins. Is there anything worse whenever you ask, you know, a nine-year-old boy, hey, you want to come dunk? You know, no matter how hard he tries, so then why? Why are you trying? Are you trying to be funny? Yeah. Did someone make you feel clearly somebody made you feel some type of way? Yeah. You know, you have a core wounding. Yeah, yeah. You have a core wound, and you're not going to core wound my child. Right, right. Um, but you know, we're hearing all these things, the six pillars, all of that. All these pillars, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

There's always, but be careful.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

But be careful. I don't want, as I'm working towards, as we're all working towards building these pillars, what are some things that maybe I realize I'm doing, or maybe even it's preconscious or whatever that may be, that I'm kind of hurting myself. Like what are some things that maybe I'm dismantling. Dismantling, tearing down these pillars that I am working so hard to do. What are if maybe there's none.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Yeah. You know, you still No, I would definitely say that there are things to really watch for that can, as you say, dismantle attachment and and often unwittingly, right? Um, not even aware that, oh wow, I did not realize how toxic that was to the growth of functional attachment in your child. And so I would say I call them kind of cheap imitations for intimacy, and they try to kind of maybe sneak in and satiate that need for intimacy and attachment in a way that the kid's like, whoof, okay, now I don't feel a need to attach to a human for a minute. That's like a hit, right? You got a hit of something. Yep, okay. It kind of took the edge off, and now I'm good for a little bit. And and I would say there are quite a few, but let's just talk about maybe the top three. Okay. Cheap imitations for intimacy. Um, number one, and we sort of hit on this when we were talking about the boundary stones. I would say enabling acquaintances. Now, these are people you probably see regularly, maybe at church, maybe at the child's school, maybe in the neighborhood. Yes. So enabling acquaintances. And I say acquaintances meaning depth of relationship, not infrequency of seeing them.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

So enabling acquaintances, these are people who hold like zero responsibility in the trenches with this child, in the trenches of their behavior. So they have zero skin in the game, but they act like they deserve somehow this intimacy and closeness, and they have um a lot of input, I'll say. And they're very enabling for the child. And that's kind of the pernicious lie we touched on a few episodes ago of the people who, because the child, by virtue of needing to be adopted, at one point in their life, they were a victim. Yeah. And so some people cannot remove that label. And that's a them problem.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

That is not your child's identity. And you become really good at spotting these people. They have zero skin in the game, they have zero responsibility in the trenches of these behaviors that I'm sure some adoptive parents are nodding their head, watching this of, like, yes, you, I won't even go into all of the behaviors that you are grappling with and struggling with in your home with this child who has been so traumatized. But this person acts like they deserve this sort of intimacy and this closeness. And it almost acts as damaging as an affair. What? Sort of like an extra-parental affair. This parent-child relationship that you're trying to build this intimacy, this attachment, and they come in and they have they're very, very destructive. And again, we we hit on the fact that the church is rife with these people. And it's it's so unfortunate that they they don't give the child enough dignity to say, you could probably do better than that, or to even give enough um respect to the parent to say, something about this seems off, but I'm going to assume the best about you, like Romans tells me to, and believe, I probably don't have all the pieces to that puzzle, which is why it's not making sense to me. So stay out of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Or if you have a concern, voice it in a private situation, not to the child, not with the child. Now, while this does hijack attachment, I'm not talking about someone intervening when you know a child is being mistreated. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about safe parents who are in the trenches, I mean blood, sweat, and tears every day with a child that is giving them a run for their money more than they ever even thought was possible. And then the do-gooder comes in and, you know, levels their platitude. It's it's uh very, very damaging to attachment.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

When you say you're talking about the do-gooder and all that, and I know that you said that you become very adept at spotting them. What are some things? Like, is that because from what I've heard, you know, is that someone that's like, oh, it's fine, oh don't worry, your mom doesn't have to like what does that look like? And maybe even I would even venture to say, how can you spot that in a family member?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

It's a very uh um obvious posture of oh okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Poor kid. After maybe a parent has given a direction. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Oh, you don't get it. Okay. Oh, they're really hard on you for making you. Yeah, even if they don't say it, maybe they're bad, they're body language. Exactly. Okay. So that would I would say would be number one.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I I'm still shocked. I cannot get over that. You compared it to an affair.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Like a parental affair.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Well, anyone that would try to come in between you and your spouse, it's not appropriate. That you don't belong in there. Yeah. And when you are working so hard to attach to this child and to walk them through the discipleship process of parenting and healing, and there's so many variables, and someone would come and insert themselves in that relationship, undermining your place, they're out of order.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

They are out of order. I have actually said to someone one time, um, you know what, she's already been rescued. And so if you're really feeling that pull to rescue a child, I can give you some information that will help you meet many children that could use your help. But I know that they probably have never had lunch with a child in foster care and taken them out and spent time with them, much less bring them into their home. So it was kind of my nice way to say thank you for your input. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

So uh number two, a cheap imitation that is so, so dangerous when you're working on attachment repairing parenting uh is porn, pornography, and we know that sexual connection is such a cheap substitute for relationship. It is the laziest way out of relationship. Because relationships are difficult and they require us to give so much input and effort and vulnerability so much. And so pornography is really, really a dangerous thing. And so many children are so, so addicted to pornography and those kinds of things. And it's not because they're a creep, they are so lonely, they are so um misguided, and things were awakened in them far before they should have ever come to life and to an awakened state. And so it you have to be so vigilant with this, with devices and televisions, and I mean, my home, I have all their school Chromebooks, they are not in backpacks where they could get up at 2 a.m. and go get their Chromebook. I have Chromebooks, they're in my bedroom. I have all the remotes for all of our smart TVs throughout our house, they are in my bedroom at night. Everybody's cell phones are plugged in in my uh bedroom at night. Like all of those things, not because, again, that's not rigid, that's me saying, I'm gonna keep you safe. Yeah, I am protecting you from uh all of the ways that the enemy would love to get his hooks in. So pornography and that that cheap satiation and substitute for a real meaningful relationship.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah. What would you say to a parent who um maybe has an older kid? You know, they come into their home and like, well, this is this is just what I do. I have to have my phone, I have to do this, and it turns into a huge fight. At what point do you just let it be for a time, for a season, or is it something that you're like, no, I need to nip this in the butt right now?

SPEAKER_03 10:48

That's a non-negotiable for me. Okay. That's a boundary stone. That's a non-negotiable for me in my home.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

And that's not something I've ever moved back on.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

And you can see, I can imagine. Yeah, it's so, you know, as you're saying it, it's so evident.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

You know, you wouldn't think that at first, like, oh, okay, that's just but it's exactly what you said. It's a cheap imitation. And it's so, it's disgusting how pernicious it truly is in our society. Yeah. But we can look at it as, oh, this is so hard, this is extra work. Or we can take it as such a posture of um, it's a privilege that we get to protect these kids when all that they have been done to them is being victimized.

SPEAKER_03 11:31

And they deserve real relationships.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

They deserve depth and not loneliness and isolation and the shame and all that comes with that.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah, and they deserve to be known and to be accepted. Yeah. You know, because then it whatever you're breeding then, well, obviously then towards their Heavenly Father. Yes. You know? If I'm not even willing to talk to why am I gonna talk to someone I can't see?

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yes, you know, so good. That's so good, Kay.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

So anything I know we said three. Did we do all three? Nope. The last one. We have last one.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Anything else on porn? Okay. No, last one. The last one I would say is, and this is gonna sound maybe counterintuitive because I am a clinician, I am a therapist, but the third, I would say top, because there's a number of things, as we said, that could really um be cheap imitations that would really come in and dismantle attachment that you're trying to build. The third one I would say is a therapist who really doesn't align with the parents. Therapists can be the great triangulators. Meaning in triangulation, you have a victim, a perpetrator, and a rescuer. Those are the three points of the triangle. And so if a child felt the most safe when they were rescued, the most seen, the most loved, they might, and often do, try to replicate that feeling by becoming a victim where they really aren't a victim. Um, and making people believe. And this is very, very, very common in therapy. Um, the child's giving you a run for your money, you bring them to therapy, you want them to help the child work on these things, and somehow you end up the topic of therapy, and they want to tell you what all the things you need to change, not sticking with, nope, I am partnering with your parent to help you grow, to help you heal, because you cannot triangulate between two points. That's a line.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

And so when you have a therapist that is um triangulating and participating in that, you will, and I try to avoid using sweeping terms, always, never, those kind of things. But I can solidly say if you have a therapist who triangulates and does not align with the parents and work on just constantly shoving that child emotionally back toward the parents in the sessions, you will never achieve attachment repair. Never. Really? Absolutely never. I would never advocate to withhold mental health treatment or that kind of thing from a child who needs it, but you have to be so darn careful about who and what type of a clinician you allow into your your child's very, very private world of attachment, repair, and healing.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yeah. So how do you even find that? How do you ascertain, you know, when you're meeting with a therapist, you usually have you chat with them first, right? As a parent. You chat with them. What are some good like questions, maybe? Yeah. Give me a couple questions that would be good to kind of because I think that therapist, a lot of times, they'll give the right answers. Yeah. Some of them aren't, they're not, it's not going to be obvious. Yeah. But what are some questions that can help filter?

SPEAKER_03 15:06

I think what experience do they have in helping a child attach to a parent? I think um, what is their view on accountability for the child? Okay. Um, those kinds of questions that will kind of trigger them to have like, well, I don't think we should hold them accountable. And you know, it comes back to even our podcast name. Choices where trauma and truth collide. And if if they don't believe that the child has a choice, they could never, they, you know, trauma is the ultimate, has the ultimate say in everything. And and so very few questions you could ask and you'll ascertain. And discernment goes a very long way.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

And don't be afraid to change therapists. You do not have to stick with someone that is not building your family unit, but undermining it. Do not stay. Yeah. Do not stay.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

All right. Well, that's it for today's episode of Choices. Will you take one small step this week? It doesn't have to be everything, just something. And remember, you're not alone in this. We'll see you next time.