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Life Divergent
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Life Divergent
EP 22 - Sleep Issues can be Multifaceted for Those with ADHD or Autism - Help
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For many neurodivergent people, falling asleep or staying asleep can be an issue. If you aren't getting the proper sleep, it can affect you in so many negative ways. Let's explore ways to improve our sleep.
Have you ever wondered why the instant your head hits the pillow you feel wide awake? If you're ADHD or otherwise neurodivergent, it might just be that your brain is wired differently. Hello and welcome to Life Divergent. I'm Trina.
SPEAKER_05And I'm Jason. A quick reminder before we get started, we are not doctors or licensed medical professionals. Please do not use this as a substitute for professional medical advice.
SPEAKER_02That's true. Alright, so why in the heck does the ADHD brain or other neurodivergent brain bite sleep?
SPEAKER_05Well, it's pretty crazy how this works. I don't care for it. But me neither. Most people with ADHD have trouble asleep. I'd say roughly 70%. There is a delay in when we want to sleep.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I don't know when it is that the average neurotypical person wants to go to sleep. I hear stories about people going to bed at 9.30. I feel like I it's like my day's just starting at 9.30. So there's like there's a about a two-hour delay before the ADHD body wants to go to sleep. Yeah. And in fact, you'll find that people with ADHD are uh three times more likely to have a diagnosable sleep disorder compared to those who are who don't have ADHD.
SPEAKER_02Right. So one of the issues that we face is um called delayed sleep phase syndrome or DSPS. So being a night owl isn't necessarily a preference. I mean, some of us do feel like we run better at night, but um there are things that are actually happening in your body that cause you to have a different circadian rhythm. So one of the things that happens for ADHD people is that the melatonin release, which is what helps you sleep, um, it starts about one to two hours later than typical. So your sleepy time or feeling sleepy doesn't really catch up with you until about between one and three o'clock a quality of sleep itself is oftentimes fine.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's really just the timing as it's misaligned with school and work and pretty much the world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, and and that sucks because, you know, the sleep in and of itself would be fine if you could get it. But because we live in a neurotypical world where, you know, people start their day off at, you know, what seven, eight o'clock in the morning. Those of us who aren't really able to go to sleep until between one and three, typically it's problematic. Um so you might think that, well, I can force myself to go to bed earlier, but that creates a problem because then you're just lying awake, which um really kind of trains you to be anxious about sleep.
SPEAKER_05And the weekends can be later because a lot of people know they don't have to be up super early, so they push their nights, and then all of a sudden Monday hits and it's like jet lag every week.
SPEAKER_02Right. Um it's it's really a vicious cycle. Um another thing that can really affect people with ADHD in a bad way is insomnia, which and and having your mind race, um, insomnia is different than um the DSPS. So when you have sleep onset insomnia, um typically what will happen is when you lie down, it removes uh external stimulation, external stimulation. So and then what happens is your mind just fills with like all kinds of stuff. It fills the silence, it will start replaying your day, you'll start planning and worrying. Um, and even common in people with ADHD is that you can experience all these things without anxiety. Um, and another thing is that we worry about not being able to sleep, so that compounds the problem.
SPEAKER_05And all that stress and anxiety, you know, coupled with the insomnia, and ends up giving you some restless nights. You have lighter sleep, more frequent awakenings, and you end up waking up feeling like you never really went to sleep in the first place.
SPEAKER_02God, I hate that. And I mean, if you have a job and everything, it's not like you can just wake up and then go back to sleep. You have to get up and get your day started and get going, and then you're gonna feel like crap all day. Um, and then it's like after months of struggle and the but itself becomes a cue for frustration. Um it can get really overwhelming and annoying. So I know some people turn to um cognitive behavioral therapy um to help with this problem.
SPEAKER_05Uh sorry.
SPEAKER_01It's alright.
SPEAKER_05Well, uh, so quick interjection. If you are with us still, consider liking and subscribing. If you like the content, you'll be able to get notified whenever more of these posts. Love to have you here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, be really helpful, and we'd appreciate it very much. Thank you.
SPEAKER_05And now we need to get revenge.
SPEAKER_02Not on you guys.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_05Subscribe or revenge. Well, no. Listen, there is revenge bedtime procrastination. Yes. No, the night feels like the only time that belongs to you. Right. You have your day of masking, you have your day-to-day, your meeting demands, your self-regulation. So staying up late feels like getting your time back.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05Like you spend your whole day doing all of the things. And nine o'clock. Someone else, yes. Yep. Whether that's I mean, even spending time with friends in the afternoon can feel like it's that might be fun, but it's certainly a thing that you dedicated time to. It can be like an obligation, you still don't have time to yourself. You know, whether that's spending time with friends, uh recording podcasts or you know, what have you. So at the end of the day, nine o'clock, ten o'clock, I need time to myself. So let's put in a good two to three hours.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_05But at what cost?
SPEAKER_02Right. Here we go back to the next day. Yeah. Um, so uh one of the well, a couple of reasons why this hits harder for ADHD people is that in order for you to go to bed, you're stopping uh rewarding activity. Um and it can be something that's really hard to summon or you know, to get yourself to do because you're exhausted or whatever. But once you get into it, um you're triggering that dopamine release, which you know is a reward. Um and then, you know, as we kind of covered already, the late evening is often the first moment of real focus that you have all day um focusing on you, focusing on something that you want to do. Um, and then if you don't experience it or if you don't get to do it, you feel like um you've lost out on something, you're missing out on something.
SPEAKER_05Are you familiar with time blindness?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I think so.
SPEAKER_05Well, that that can hit pretty hard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_0511 p.m. It feels exactly the same as 2 a.m.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05At least in the moment. You're in the middle of your task. Oh what? Just I'll work on this for 30 minutes. Three hours later, you're still in go mode. You like what you're doing, you're focusing on you, you get to do things you've been putting off, and you're like, okay, great, I gotta be up in three and a half hours.
SPEAKER_02Right. And and the other thing is it's like you don't even realize that that much time has passed, you're like literally shocked that it's been three hours instead of 30 minutes. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then how many people out there will recognize that it's late? Say, oh no, I have to be up early, but still try to get a few more minutes out of that time, like just five more minutes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05I'm only getting three and a half hours of sleep. What's the difference between that and three hours and 25 minutes of sleep at that point?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, it it's hard to disengage for sure, um, when you're like all hyped up. And then the other thing is, like, even if you do disengage and you go lie down, I mean, we've kind of talked about it a little bit. There you are laying there and your mind's just racing, thinking about what you were doing, and your adrenaline's flowing, and you know, it's gonna take you time to uh wind down.
SPEAKER_05It's it's a vicious cycle. I need to say that word correctly. It's a vicious cycle. Yes. I don't know if I said viscous or vicious, but vicious. I was very so you start off with your natural delayed sleep. You know, your as we mentioned, your body clock will push your sleep onset past midnight or whatever time. You'll have a short night because your alarm will wake you up or the kids or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05You perform significantly worse during the day, and this is a great rant of mine. I I've known people who get five hours of sleep regularly, and they will swear that they can function perfectly. And they they they don't care that that's not how science works. That they would perform better if they got used to having seven to nine hours of sleep.
SPEAKER_02Well, everybody has to be a hero. Oh, I can get five hours and be right. Sorry.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I can get five hours, five hours of sleep every night, and I know that I'm slow. I can't think as clearly. It's harder for me to make the connections. But you get that during the day as part of the cycle. You get hard hard time focusing. Your mood is off. Like I have to remind myself that I'm tired so I don't respond to whatever emotions that I'm feeling. It's just a constant reminder. This isn't real. If you're tired, don't worry about it. And then everything about your day degrades, and then you try to cope at night, where you have the caffeine, you hit you're on your screen time, you do all these things that push you past your bedtime, and then the cycle repeats, and you just get so used to having your day full of struggling to maintain, it's just work, work, work all the time.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Um, you know, you kind of touched on it untreated sleep, um, loss. In addition to um have being inattentive, um there's irritability, there's restlessness. Um, and what I have found is that when I'm tired, every other emotion seems to be amplified. I I don't know if that's true for other people, but I just feel like I don't know, being tired just sets me up, you know, in every other way. So um there are also some other things that we experience that go along with um, you know, the DSPS and insomnia um that can prevent people from really falling asleep effectively, even once you know you're tired. And this is something that I really struggle with, and that's restless leg syndrome. Um that is an urge to move your legs while they're at rest. And that urge, and it's more than just like in your brain, it's like a feeling in your legs. I I don't know how to describe it, but it's like um firing of your um nerves, and you just you you have to move them. I mean, it's it's if you've never experienced it, it's hard to explain, but it's so annoying. And this is something that um has been found to be really overrepresented in people with ADHD, and it can be linked to low ferritin, which is a blood protein that safely stores iron inside your cells, but um so it it will keep you awake until it passes, um, and you're constantly moving your legs trying to get it to stop. And I don't know what why it starts, why it stops, but it's it's it's so frustrating. I don't know if you can tell by the way I'm expressing this, but it's it's annoying.
SPEAKER_05So that happens when you're awake, but also when you're asleep, right? I'm actually less familiar with this personally, but it's my understanding that this the rest of restless leg syndrome and the periodic limb movements will happen during sleep that can sort of wake you up, but not enough to remember.
SPEAKER_02Well, um, I know that I also have um periodic limb movements, and that can happen as I'm falling asleep, and it's so weird, it's wild how like um how much my leg will jerk. Um, like if I'm laying on my side, my one leg will bounce off of my other leg like what what is that, four or five inches? Um and uh it's like completely involuntary. And um when that happens, when you're about to doze off, it wakes you back up. And depending on you know how much you're struggling to fall asleep in the first place, that can be the thing that makes you be awake for the next 15-20 minutes, or it can just be you know something that's just you know, you're already kind of past that phase where you can just go ahead and go to sleep, but you definitely um can feel it when you're asleep, and for some people it will just kind of bring you to the surface without completely waking you up. But if you're in a deeper sleep, it can pull you out of that deeper sleep. I think um for me, I know that and I don't know why it varies, but sometimes I do fine, but other times it's like you know, I'm asleep and I jerk, and it will kind of wake me up a little bit, but it'll be one of those things where I just roll over and go back to sleep. Um, sometimes it's like it wakes me up and I'm like, oh, I should probably go ahead and go to the restroom while I'm up, and then I'll be up for a few minutes. Um, so it it there's just no telling, but it can be really, really um frustrating.
SPEAKER_05You know what's interesting about this story? I can't dial into it. Like I said, that's not something that I experience, and so when I'm listening to this, I can't help but think, is this how neurotypical people feel when they're listening to neurodivergent people talk about some of their struggles, or perhaps even listening to this? Like you don't get it, but you know that it's real, right? Like I don't understand it. I don't have my legs flailing about in the middle of the night, I think. Pretty sure.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that um probably you, because you uh do have other you understand that there are things that affect you um that don't affect other people, you're probably a little more empathetic or sympathetic or you know, a little more understanding, huh?
SPEAKER_05Or just pathetic.
SPEAKER_02Pathetic, yeah. You're just pathetic. Um but um I I think that you have a tendency to believe people more than maybe someone who's neurotypical. Um, because what I found in general is that neurotypical people, they just don't get it. And sometimes I find that when I'm talking about certain things like this, they're like just looking at you like you have three heads, you know, and just like you can see on their face, they're like, You're so full of shit, you know. But uh fortunately with you, you can understand, I think, because you have things too that other people don't experience.
SPEAKER_05So so if do neurotypical people think and like if you're listening or watching, please chime in, comments, etc. Yeah, is this really about you just look at your life and all the things about you and think I'm perfectly fine, nothing that's debilitating, nothing considered disorder. Is that a is that real? Like, I don't I've never been in that position, so I don't know what that feels like. But I'm curious.
SPEAKER_02No, but I I think that if you think about it like this, you know, I've said to you, like when you were younger, again, I'm his mom, he's my son. Um those go together. I didn't see yeah, those go together. Um, well, I'm not his father, so there's that. Um that there were things in you that I didn't see because they were things in me, like neuro neurodivergent things. Um that makes sense. And I just um never knew that I was neurodivergent. I thought I was different, but in a special sort of way, not a special, special way, but a special way. Um, so I think that perhaps as you're saying about hi kitty, about neuro um typical people, they just think, oh, this is the way it is. Um, just like I think that every or used to think that everybody experienced everything that I experienced. Um, so because I'm used to I guess there being oddities, as I've learned. Um I'm more understanding of them, but maybe a neurotypical person, they just think the way they are is typical. I I don't know if I just made sense, but anyway, there's that.
SPEAKER_05So we go from swinging your legs in the middle of the night or something like swinging them around.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um another thing that I've had issues with, um, I'm not currently having issues with is um obstructive sleep apnea. Can you see her licking my hand?
SPEAKER_05I was about to comment on that. Just for those who don't have video, my mom's cat is just on the desk licking the palm of her hand. Yes, like 30, 45 seconds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and now she there she goes again. All right. Still happening. Um anyway. All right, so obstructive sleep apnea, you can snore and your breathing will pause. Um, the it it can it'll wake you up because you stop breathing. I mean, it's so stupid, but uh I haven't really experienced it very much in a really long time, but it's another thing that it can disrupt your sleep and it can vary in degrees from you know just barely lifting you out of the sleep to you know completely waking you up, depending on how long it had been since the last time that you took a breath. Um, so that's another thing that can be problematic for the sleep cycle.
SPEAKER_05And imagine having an irregular schedule on top of your already delayed circadian clock. It can make everything so much worse. Yeah. Now, here's a concept that some people swear by naps. I cannot stand them. People talk about how great naps are. It's like, cool. I'm now my 30-minute nap is now a two and a half hour nap. Yes, here it goes my whole afternoonslash evening. I my stomach feels weird, I'm irritable, disoriented, and that just sucked up my whole day, which makes me want to stay up later. And now I can because I got a nap in.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Uh naps are very disruptive um for me too. They just um no, I can't. I'm not one of those people who can take like a 15 minute or 30 minute power nap and get up and feel better, and I feel like crap. Um, as you said, disoriented, just out of it, and then of course. I'm gonna be up even later.
SPEAKER_05And then you try to not necessarily, but people then might try to justify like I can stay up later because I got a nap and like I'm getting more sleep because that's not how that works.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then you get into the whole um not getting your deep sleep where your brain's being cleared out of all the crap. I mean, we've talked about that in another episode previously about how your brain cleans itself while you sleep, um, which is vital um but for brain health, but I'm not gonna get into that right now. Um, we can always go back and find it. But yeah, so um, you know, we've talked about things that can be problematic, but let's touch a little bit on maybe some things that can kind of help. Um first of all, there's something to be said for the morning light. Um, it can be one of the strongest helps for you to get in the morning, to go out if you can, get 10 to 30 minutes of outdoor light soon after waking up, it helps to anchor your clock. Um that light really triggers your um circadian rhythm and can help you get into the mode. Um, and if you find that you live in an area where it's dark in the mornings or you know, certain times of the year, you can use a light box. Um, there are certain special light boxes for dark mornings that you can use, and um, they're found a lot in places where it stays dark for many months out of the year. Um, so a lot of people struggle, so they need light boxes to help them. So that's something again. The morning light, go outside, use a light box, something, give yourself some good light in the morning.
SPEAKER_05Can confirm. 10 yeah, I know that you were saying 10 to 30 minutes, but 10 minutes is fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean, what are you doing with that 10 minutes anyway? Just go outside for a minute, begin the light. It makes a world of difference.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05But that's in the morning. There are also some easy things that you can do. Say the last hour of your day, lowering the overhead lights, cutting the the use or limiting the use of bright screens, especially close to your face. The intensity and the proximity do matter. It's not just all about the blue light.
SPEAKER_02You know, my my lights are dim all the time, so I don't really find that that's very helpful for me, but what about you? Have you found that like limiting blue light or dimming your lights helps you?
SPEAKER_05Yes, I would say I would say so. Yeah. I remember when I first learned about blue light being what keeps us up. So a responsible decision that I wanted to make was just shutting off screens. Now, I absolutely did not do that because I like screen time. So what I did instead was I bought some blue light blocking glasses, because that's when I learned about blue light.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I decided, okay, great. So about the time I want to start winding down for bed, I'll put these on. I'll still go about my normal screen day-to-day stuff, but maybe reducing the blue light through this artificial item, blue light blocking glasses, maybe that'll help. And I swear, every single night I did that, within 10 minutes, I was dead tired. Like I could barely keep my eyes open.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, blue light makes a big difference. I I I know that I was just saying that there are other factors, but like you said, in the evenings my lights are typically dim anyway, and I don't have screens close to my face. So that's not as much of an issue. Cutting out the blue light was significant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Huh. Well, you know, for those of you who haven't tried that, give it a try. It just might work for you, along with dimming your lights. Um, so what's important here is um what we call approximation. You know, when you can move your wake time earlier by 15 minutes every few days. So don't just um think to yourself, like to help you get regulated, maybe. Don't just think to yourself, oh, I'm just gonna make myself get up two hours earlier so that I can go to bed two hours um differently tonight. Um it's best if you do it in approximation, you know, just change your wake time by 15 minutes. Um use that 15 minutes to go outside. Or, you know, just get up, get moving around to, you know, help yourself get motivated and help yourself get awake. And then, you know, the next day or two days later, do 15 minutes more, but just pace it out so that it's not like a sudden shock to your system because the more gradually you make the change, the less you'll notice.
SPEAKER_05Well, there is something else you can do to help um when you're going through the process of shifting your time back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I mean, more than more than it is sorry. It's just about making it consistent. Because when you were talking about shifting your time back 15 minutes, my first thought is, well, you have to have a consistent time in the first place. Right. You're waking up at 6 30 here, 8 o'clock here. If there's no like, how can you set back 15 minutes if you don't know when you're waking up in the first place? Right. So it's that makes sense. Yeah. So that's something that needs to be done. Set set yourself a consistent time. Make your mornings consistent. Even on weekends, just make your each day consistent with the waking, consistent with the sleeping. I'm sure most people out there are thinking, yeah, that's not gonna happen. I don't want to do that. I'd like to get my sleep. I don't want to sleep in, want to stay up late. But if you think about all the miserable parts of your life that are related to lack of sleep, you can get rid of all or most of those. Yeah. If you you get used to waking up at 6.30 every day, then that's okay. Do you know how far away noon is from 6.30 when you don't have to work like on a weekend?
SPEAKER_00That's a lot of time.
SPEAKER_05It is like I I used to wake up uh weekends like 9, maybe 10 o'clock. I'd get in, I I'd spend my half hour getting ready, all of a sudden it's like 10.30, and then I have noon's an hour and a half away. I can do a little bit of stuff, and then I gotta get ready for lunch. You wake up at 6 30, you get ready by 7, you have five hours. That's so much time in the morning, especially if you're not used to it. Imagine all that you can get done.
SPEAKER_02It's really weird too. Like, I I know, like yesterday, was it yesterday, I think. Um, like I was just hanging out, and I'm like thinking it's like two or three in the afternoon, and I look over and it's like 10 a.m. Like, what in the heck? Because I had gotten up so early and stayed up. Um it's really kind of a strange thing. It's kind of that time blindness thing, but in reverse, maybe I don't know.
SPEAKER_05But and then you feel productive. It's like you don't need that shoot, that what did I call it? Revenge bedtime procrastination. Because you got so all that time that you're trying to get back late at night, you just got during your your weekend morning. And I understand that a lot of people have things that they're doing anyway, but in instances where you might just have a day to yourself or a day where you don't have these super pressing obligations, that's such a fantastic block of time to have.
SPEAKER_02Right. Um, and you know, if you're well rested because you've been, you know, getting into this um kind of consistent pattern, then you're going to feel good and really be productive. Like um, and even if you're not productive, just the time that you have is going to be better time because you're not feeling tired or sluggish or whatever. Um, so that's good. I hadn't thought about the you know being consistent going along with the changing your uh uh uh awake time, but certainly, as you say, you have to have the schedule in the first place to be able to alter it. Um, but yeah, so that covers um, you know, things that help as far as light and timing go. But what about winding down at night? Um, there are some things we're gonna touch on, six things that can help your nighttime routine to help you maybe fall asleep more easily. So one thing that I find really helpful is um to do like a brain dump before bed. So basically, if you have a journal or anything like that, or just um a to-do list or something like that, just get something and write down, like take five minutes. You know, it's not that big of a deal, but take five minutes and just write down the things that you're thinking about that you need to do tomorrow. Um what I find is that if I get it out of my head, it's been said, it's been done. Um, so I can move on and not focus on that. Or um what am I trying to say? Just um, yeah, so it's not just an obsession when I lay down. So that's something that I just get out of my head. So it's not mulling around in there while I'm trying to fall asleep.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's like the brain's way of trying to commit things to memory, plan out your day, but put that plan on paper. You don't have to have to worry about it. Because the mind just races, and for a lot of people, that racing mind is what keeps you up, like you're saying. So another thing that you can do to give yourself something else to focus on, like an audiobook, perhaps, when you're when you're sleeping or trying to sleep, a familiar show or a podcast. So, yeah, instead of just listening to silence in your own mind, is that something that you do? What are your experiences?
SPEAKER_02Well, what I find helpful for me is um something that's familiar, like a show or something like that. Um, something I've seen a bazillion times that I could probably recite, but it's noise and it's comfort because it's something that I know, but it's not new. So, you know, one of the big problems with I guess everyone's mind, but particularly with the ADHD mind, is that we're constantly seeking novelty. So if there's something playing that I've never seen before, or only once maybe, I'm gonna be focusing on it. And no matter how tired I am, I'm gonna stay awake. Um, but I find that putting on something familiar, like you know, friends on repeat or the good place or how I'm at your mind, just whatever, something that I'm so familiar with that it's like an old friend just sitting there with me while I'm falling asleep. Um, I find it very helpful. Um do you prefer silence or do you have anything playing while you're falling asleep?
SPEAKER_05I can't have things playing because I'll focus on them or I will block them out entirely and my mind will race on its own. So yeah, uh either either way, I'm keeping myself up. So yeah. That I I've heard this works for a lot of people. It happens it happens to not work for me.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I know I've heard people that use like um those sound machines, or they'll run a fan or anything like that. Do you employ any of those um techniques or just nothing?
SPEAKER_05Uh I mean, I think any machine can be a noise machine if you run it wrong enough.
SPEAKER_02Well, I meant like sounds of nature or that kind of stuff. Like falling rain.
SPEAKER_05No, I actually don't like I don't like anything ASMR related or sounds like that. It's it's grading. I I can't do it. It's too much, gotta shut it off. Let me live in silence, please.
SPEAKER_02Um so I think that another thing is that you know, finding a routine that works for you that um kind of is a cue to you or to your system that okay, it's bedtime. Um and you just get into it so that you take that time and you're settling your mind into the idea that you're getting ready for bed. Um, whether that be going to the restroom, brushing your teeth, having a nice warm bath, um, you know, just things that signal to your body that it's time to settle into um nighttime. I'm not really good at that. Um, but don't you have like some sort of a routine that you go through when it's getting close to bedtime?
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. I have an alarm set for 10:30 every night, and I use that as my time to take melatonin and start getting ready for bed. So by the time melatonin kicks in, we'll say 11:30, I am all set, ready to go, and I can get to bed, get to sleep before midnight. Wake up at 6.30, so I get or seven o'clock. So I get about seven hours of sleep. Perfect world. Now, on occasion, I'll forget. Not that I forget because I have the alarm, but I'll hit the hit the snooze of the dismiss. I'll get to get up to do that. I'll get pulled into something else, or maybe I'll be in a different room and the cat's on my lap, and it's like, well, I don't want to bother her. Um, you know, then you forget to take your melatonin. Then you stay up until 3:30 writing, I don't know, writing down ideas for DD campaigns, and then you have to wake up early to record a podcast with your mom. You know, things like that happen.
SPEAKER_02So you find that setting an alarm, um, not just to wake up but for bedtime um is helpful to you. Those external cues, excuse me, are kind of more reliable than your internal time sense.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, internal time sense is garbage for me. But yes, yeah. I did give an example of when the alarm doesn't work, but by and large, it does. Especially during the work week, I make it a point to take the melatonin at that time. Just few and far between, we run into those amusing instances where it's like, oh shoot, no wonder I'm not tired and it's one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, another thing on this list is something that I find particularly helpful, and that's if um after you lay down to try to go to sleep, and you know, 15, 20 minutes have passed and you're still awake without really feeling dozy or anything like that, um, maybe get up and don't turn on the lights or use dim lights or whatever you need to do and find something to do, whether it's you know, write or journal. Um I mean, of course, the natural thing is to want to doom scroll or go on your computer or something like that. But of course, you should be trying to avoid any blue light at this point. But um, you know, if you go to do that, if you're in dark mode or something like that, so that the lights aren't bright coming off of your computer, that can be really helpful, you know. So spend a few minutes just trying to um redirect your mind, um, maybe get things out of your head and then go back and lay down. Um, I don't always find this helpful, but sometimes it does help.
SPEAKER_05You know, there's something else that's really really can impact people. I see it a lot. Weird for me. Uh caffeine in the the afternoon. Maybe what are you saying? Caffeine in the afternoon. Oh, as you're drinking your soda in the afternoon. Yeah. I mean, I can see you have your lunch, maybe a big lunch, maybe you're feeling a little tired, so you have have your soda, have a coffee. People have coffee with dinner at times. That's that that really can create an issue with sleep. Even if it's I don't know, two two p.m. You don't plan on going to sleep for another eight hours. It it lingers, it can still create an issue. Alcohol as well, even though it's uh kind of makes people feel sleepy, it's a central nervous system depressant. It does disrupt your sleep. You may feel more tired, but you don't get good sleep if it's alcohol induced. So shouldn't be treated as a sleep aid. Right. What's the point of getting more sleep if the quality is horrible?
SPEAKER_02Right. Makes perfect sense. So um, as previously mentioned, what's important with these things too is approximation. Um, if you're going to try any of these things, implement them like one at a time. Don't try to do everything all at once. You can get yourself overwhelmed. But the other thing is, you know, maybe not all the things are going to work for you, but maybe some of the things would work for you. So by trying them out individually, um, you'll have a better idea of what is and what is not affected. So approximation, just do a little bit at a time.
SPEAKER_05And yeah. Sleep. Once you get seven to nine hours of sleep, I've had people tell me that they feel worse, they still feel groggy, they still feel unrested. Yeah, you're not used to it. All of these things, if uh as as Trina's saying, give yourself some time. If you try something once and it doesn't work, I mean, don't say, oh, well, I guess it doesn't work. Give yourself a week. Build a consistent habit and then say it works or it doesn't work. It'll probably work. Just give yourself a chance to let it work.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02All right. So um let's talk about when to bring in a professional. If you find that these tips and tricks aren't really helping you out.
SPEAKER_05Well, as we've mentioned before in some of these other videos slash podcasts, getting professional help tends to be more successful than self-help. Self-help, even though we've led with that, is nice to be able to implement just as good patterns in general, good behaviors in general, and can help mitigate some of the challenges that you might have if there is a serious insomnia issue while you're awaiting that professional help. Right. But cognitive behavioral therapy is the is the best approach for chronic insomnia. It's proven to be more successful than sleep medication. So I strongly encourage you, if this is a struggle of yours, and you know, ask your doctor for a referral of or you know, talk about a validated digital program, any number of things that might help get you the answer you're looking for, the treatment you're looking for.
SPEAKER_02Right. Um, another thing, you know, coming back to timing and light um therapy, there are clinicians, excuse me, who can really help you out if you do have genuinely have um the a delayed clock. They can guide you through um timing your lights, um, advise you on low-dose melatonin and advise you the best time for you to take them. Um, I recently talked to my therapist like this past week about melatonin, and I was a little surprised at the dosage that she recommended. Um so don't just think that you know what's best when it comes to this kind of thing, especially if you're on you know, medications, your doctor or clinician or therapist or whatever is going to be the best bet to tell you what dosages, or if even any at all, melatonin or other type of supplement might be best for you to take with any medication that you're currently on. Um, but you know, they can guide you when to take it, how much to take. Um, and a lot of people find that those things are more helpful than using sedatives because sedatives don't necessarily give you the good quality of sleep that you need.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I agreed. So I'd say go to the doctor, ask for the referral, uh follow the directions that you're given, get a get this screening done. You know what I mean by that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, study your blood work. Yeah, especially if you're um suffering with things like we've discussed, um, any type of leg symptoms like um your restless leg syndrome or the jerks or whatever, because some of these things could um, even though they may be related to your ADHD or whatever, they could be signs of like some sort of neurological issues beyond just being neurodivergent. So if you're experiencing any of these things, make sure that you consult your um professional to get their advice because we're not giving you medical advice. Um, excuse me.
SPEAKER_05You know, you may not even know you have these things.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05Maybe your partner never mentioned it because it's normal to them, or you've been sleeping alone and you could have sleep apnea, you could have helicopter legs in the middle of the night. So maybe talking to the doctor, getting the screening, you know, getting asked questions you never you never thought to answer might give you some answers.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. Um, so um in closing, I want to know um if you struggle with any of these things, um what time do you think this is for the listeners? Um, what time would you fall asleep if you didn't have to wake up to an alarm? Um if you just you know had all your days free, what would be your normal time to fall asleep?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and not like pushing the limits, but right like when when we when would you feel tired? Like if you had nothing to do in life and you're just hanging out, like yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, another thing uh that I I'm kind of curious about a b if I could speak, I would tell you. Um is that when you can't sleep, what is it that you do? Um do you just like engage in Zoom scrolling? Do you try to do other things? Um what is it that you're doing that might prevent you from going to bed if you don't feel tired?
SPEAKER_05And if you want to throw another answer in the comments, yeah. How does the lack of sleep affect your day? Because I man, it's horrible. It's horrible for me. Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_02So and I know this is a big thing for you, as you said earlier, how people say, Oh, I do I'm just fine with five hours of sleep. Well, I'm not, I'm just gonna be not great. So, I mean, I can function, but I would prefer not to function in that state because I just feel off all day. So let us know down in the um comments how you feel when you don't get um not just enough sleep, but not the proper kind of sleep. Um I have a thought on that.
SPEAKER_05I have a thought on that. What? I have a thought on that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, think away.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I'd like to verbalize that as well.
SPEAKER_00Please do.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So I was one of those people who thought that five hours of sleep is fine, I could perform perfectly well for years. Yeah, and it wasn't until recently, like the last couple, last two years, that I started getting a decent amount of sleep. I started getting that seven to eight hours. And it was only only then that I realized I was so so successful and productive. And when I get five to six hours of sleep since then, since I've had those experiences, I can feel my mind in decline. And it's it was only through like because you get so used to one thing, that's all you know. But once once you've had the good stuff and you go back to the bad stuff, you don't want the bad stuff anymore. You know that it's bad.
SPEAKER_02It's that you don't know what you're missing until you try it, right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so try it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so with all that being said, I do hope that you will subscribe, show us a little support. Um, we really appreciate you being here and uh staying with us if you've made it this long, because this was a long one today. And I do hope that you'll join us next week when we talk about why you are such a know it all. Yeah. Until next time, be well. Bye. Bye.
