Just be the Apple

In this episode, Marli introduces journalist, linguist, and long-time friend Gillian Newton — a woman with an endlessly curious mind and absolutely no hesitation in challenging an idea.

What begins as a conversation about whether people need fixing quickly turns into a lively debate about self-improvement, self-acceptance, productivity, guilt, authenticity, and why so many of us struggle to simply be.

Together they explore the messages we inherit from family, culture, and society, the pressure to be successful, efficient, and "normal," and the possibility that perhaps we have been asking ourselves the wrong question all along.

With humor, curiosity, and more than a few disagreements, this episode lays the foundation for what Cake for Breakfast is all about: understanding who you are, questioning the rules you've been living by, and giving yourself permission to live a life that feels genuinely yours.

After all, perhaps the goal isn't to become a better apple. Perhaps it's to finally just be, the apple.

Unmask. Awaken. Live.

Transcript

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Live. Hello and welcome to Cake for Breakfast. What a wonderful idea. Cake for Breakfast. Very exciting. Yeah. No. Okay. I am Martley, and that is Gillian. Very excited about this new podcast. Indeed, we are. We it's a challenge, but it's going to be a hell of a journey, I think. I think it's going to be fantastic. It's going to be very exciting. So important to use your voice to voice truth. It's very scary as well, Gillian. Yeah, well, my husband has a t-shirt which is probably 900 years old that says every voice matters. And I think that's quite quite a true thing, because every voice does matter. That is very true. Yeah. And that's a hope as well, right? Yeah. To firstly have fun and secondly to reach as many as we can. Yeah. With our unique brand of wisdom. Yes. Absolutely. Okay. So let us explain a little bit who we are. I think that would be the first thing. Okay. I'm Marley Berkes and I'm a clinical psychologist. I've been doing this work for over 25 years, from the mornings at eight o'clock until the evenings at five. Well, not so much anymore these days. No, I do it until two o'clock and I go to my horse and I just chill. And my intention with this podcast is to just take some of the pressure off humankind. And there is so much pressure these days about who we are supposed to be, how we're supposed to better ourselves, how we have to find our life purpose and become more functional and just better in general. And this podcast is about remembering who you are and just realizing that nothing needs fixing and have fun along the way. Okay. Um, nothing needs fixing is quite a quite a broad statement, but you're gonna take me on on that right now, right? Yeah, just introduce yourself. My name is Jillian Newton, and I am an insanely, maybe pathologically curious person. I ask people questions all the time. I have a very, very, very inquiring mind, um, sometimes to my own detriment. I get myself into conversations where it's um stuff that I didn't want to know, but then I know it, so that's always fun. And I'm here to make sure that Marley doesn't go off on tangents about weird things. I'm going to hold her in check a little bit. Good luck, Jillian. I'm gonna try my very best. Gonna try my very best. Tangents are fun. Yeah, tangents are fun. Can I just say to whoever is listening that Jillian has a tendency to sell herself short? So you have not mentioned the fact that you're a linguist or that you were a journalist as well. No, that is one of my biggest issues in life. I was trained as a child. Trained is a very strong word, but trained is the correct word. Trained is the correct word to never blow my own trumpet. So I find it very, very difficult to speak about myself. I would rather speak about the person who I'm in a conversation with. So quite retiring when it comes to that. Um, but I am passionate about people. I think people are the most phenomenal things in the world. I I love people and I love trying to figure out why they are who they are and how they got there. And that's why I ask questions all the time. I yeah, fiercely intelligent and trying to figure out let's say you are fiercely intelligent. I am, yes. Yes, yes. Massive breakthrough. And I I try to figure out what makes people tick. Not necessarily in a psychological sense, because that's your your thing, but more about who they are. Not not psychologically, but why they are. I think who they are, there's no asking who you are if you don't ask why. Exactly. Right. Because that's how we are formed. Exactly. And that's where what we're hopefully going to talk about a lot. Yeah. Because to figure out who you are, you also have to figure out what you're not and how you were influenced along the way. Yes. Consciously and unconsciously. Exactly. Exactly. Which is very easily said. But Carl Jung said it's the work of the life of a lifetime to figure out who you truly are. Yes. I know you're a call jung groupie. Massive call jung groupie. Groupie is a strong statement, Julian. No, groupie is very, very accurate in this case. Yeah, I might have been a background singer if he was still alive. Shoom up, shoom up. Agree. Can I just ask before we continue, just maybe say something about your work as a journalist in the apartheid era in South Africa? Um, I covered the pre-apartheid and post-apartheid time. Very, very 94 was um just after apartheid, and it was an absolute journey of revelation to me because it was a very steep learning curve. I grew up in a very conser not conservative household, but I went to a church school and we were sort of taught how to think and what to think. And although I grew up English, which was a little bit weird in South Africa in those days, um, to find out what a portate had done it blew me away, it really, really did, because we were unaware. Growing up in South Africa as a white person, we were we were unaware. And um And when awareness hit, yeah, it was a hell of a thing. It nearly filled for me. Yeah. Yeah, me too. And as a as a teenager, you know, you you knew deep down that something was wrong, and but you couldn't do anything because you were powerless, because that's what you were taught to be. So it was I don't know whether this is the right psychological term, but learned helplessness. Yes. You know, we were we were so brainwashed, and I'm not comparing anything that I went through with what people went through who were um subjugated by the by the apartheid regime. But yeah, it it was mind-blowing to actually speak to people who'd been through it and hear their stories. And what was amazing was that these people were not hateful, they were hopeful. And to me that is that is incredible. Um did a lot of TRC stuff. And yeah, you know, if you put a bunch of journalists in a room together, they're generally going to sort of start making dark jokes and stuff to try and take away the South African thing. Yeah, it is a South African thing. How dark sense of humor has saved us often. Exactly. It gets us through through the the horrible stuff. Um and I remember listening to a lady in Lady Brand, um, and the entire media room, the entire media room was quiet while she was talking. And then I realized that there are stories to be told. And I know the whole world knew that we we were coming out of something, but for me to personally realize that there are each human being has a story and each human being has been formed by what they've gone through. That to me was a sort of it's made me stop and think a little bit about my role in life and about everyone's role in life. Because we all have a place. We all have a place, yeah. And our life is meaningful regardless of whatever life that is, always exactly and regard sorry, regardless of what you've been told. Regardless, yeah, yeah. And once again, uh Gillian will always mock me a little bit for the fact that I do love my quotes, but Richard Bach, one of my favorite authors, said the first step in de-hypnotizing yourself is realizing that you were hypnotized in the first place. And that's one of my favorite quotes, and that's not an easy feat. Yeah, well, you first have to recognize that there's a problem before you can fix the problem. So and to know your own mind, and that's also a big sentence. But yes, thank you for doing this podcast with me because that that's the energy and that's the hopefulness and that's the kindness that you bring to the table and the intelligence, Jillian. Thank you very much. Thank you. As long as somebody acknowledges my intelligence, I'm a very happy person. And hopefulness will also be a strong theme for us. Uh, holding on to that, saying yes to life. I'm listening to a podcast, not a podcast, to an old book that would be very interesting. A old book written by um Victor Franco, not the search for meaning, it's saying yes to life and also holding on to hopefulness, regardless of what happened to you. That was amazing. Okay, but for now, you wanted to take me on for something that I said earlier. You said that we don't the things that don't need to be fixed. And I said nothing needs fixing. That's also a Richard Bach quote. Okay. If you look into the mirror, please just if if you could see me now, you'd know that I was rolling my eyes so badly. She was. Yeah. Didn't no one's eyes could roll back that far. I'm talented. What can I say? Nothing needs fixing. I know that's a strong statement. And I know that's very country, contrary to what popular media is telling us. It's always and constantly telling us to better ourselves. I'm not saying you should not strive. I'm not saying if there's aspects of yourself that you want to better or you want to work on, by all means do it. But I am saying, I am saying accept yourself as you are today. That exactly how you are as you're sitting there is good enough. But if you are good enough, then why would you strive for anything else? That's a good question. Because if you strive for any other reason, if you don't believe you're good enough, what reason are you striving for then? Well if you if you just sit in a heap and think, well and I know you don't like victimhood statements. And I know you think that people shouldn't fall into victimhood. Yes. Well that's a whole Yeah, I know. That's a whole new part of the state. Yes, yes, yes. That's one of my Achilles heels. Yeah. Is that feeling that yeah we'll we'll go into victimhood now. So but if you just if you don't have some kind of drive then you're a very difficult person to live with is what I wanted to say, but that's not exactly what what I mean. It's if you if you have no drive to make yourself the best person that you can be, then what on earth are we doing here? Okay. Well that's two questions, right? My question was why does the drive need to come from the feeling that you're not good enough? Because where else would the feeling come from? If you if say for example you run uh marathons, not that I ever would, but say for example, you're a marathon runner. And if you want constantly trying to make your better your time or improve your time to be a better marathon runner, then you might as well not be a marathon runner. You see, it it's not the same thing. Understanding that who you are right now is good enough is not gonna take away any motivation to run faster next time or to go and study that course that you've always planned on studying. All it will take away is the anxiety and the nerve-wracking pain of never knowing when you will reach that goal of being good enough. So if you can look in the mirror and you can accept all aspects of yourself, and that would mean, and I know it's not an easy it's an easy statement to make, it's not an easy thing to do because, like I said, it's the journey of a lifetime to figure out who you are. But if you can figure out who you are and truly like that person, love that person and accept that person, then your motivation will become intrinsic and it will be from something else. It would not be trying to be better than the next person. It would not be trying to prove to everybody else that you're somehow good enough or functional enough or pretty enough or intelligent enough. It will be because you love yourself and you want to give yourself this. It will be because you're passionate about running and you can't wait to see what this wondrous body of yours can do. It will come from a completely different motivation and you will be happy. The next time you run that marathon and you have whatever time you have, you will pat yourself on the shoulder and say, Well done for doing an amazing race. And then next time run faster. I once heard a story of a woman that I think she won a gold medal at the Olympic Games. And as they asked her if she was happy with what she achieved, she said, Yeah, that's just great, but now the training is for this next marathon that she's doing. She almost didn't pause for a second to take in the moment to say to herself, this was amazing, really well done. Yeah. And if we don't, if we don't accept ourselves as we are, if we do, if we're constantly trying to fix things, we're always waiting for the next hit, for the next thing that that proves to us that we are somehow good enough. But you must also remember, Jillian, this feeling of not being good enough. Every single human being has that. Well, possibly accept the Dalai Lama, but everybody else. I knew you were going to bring the Dalai Lama in. Sorry, just let me just tell you that Madley and I disagree tremendously. Tremendously. So what we have our biggest fights about is about what I call her airy-fairy stuff. She she does incense and she does meditation and she does Dalai Lama stuff, and it makes no sense. And Jillian rolls her eyes very hard at that. Yeah, crystals and no, it just it makes no sense to me. We will get into all of that. But until the day that we are completely enlightened and sitting on a rock, Jillian, we are still humans and we are all we all have wounds. We all got hurt somewhere along the line. We all have a childhood, we all have a backstory. And somewhere there there is the belief that we were not good enough, that we somehow brought this upon ourselves. Because as children, we believe that we did. We believe that anything that goes wrong are somehow our fault. And we carry this on, we carry this on into adulthood for ourselves. So if you you're saying it as a child, we all believe we're not good enough. Is that because of the parents? Wait, wait, wait. That's a sweeping statement. I say as a child, we all get hurt, and we all believe intrinsically that somehow we are responsible for that hurt. Okay. Yes. Okay. And then later on it develops into a I am, I am somehow not enough or somehow not good enough. And then we strive to fix that the whole time. And so the motivation comes from that. Instead of coming from a space of as I am, I am enough. And therefore, these are the things I love and I will spend some time doing it. Um, and and I I hear what you're saying about being it's it being intrinsic. But if you, for example, are in a in a situation where you are c in a in a sort of a a race for a a promotion at work or something like that, and you don't give it your all, then at the end of the day, can you say to yourself you did your best? Does one always need to do your absolute best, Julian? Yeah, I reckon so. Okay. It's all the world can ask of you is for you to do your best. Of course you are gonna go and try for that promotion. It's the it's not the actions that will differ differ, it's the motivation behind it. But the motivation in a job situation. I mean it's it's often financial because you when you get a promotion, you get an you get an increase. It's often more responsibility or a managerial position or something like that. So that's not intrinsic. You mean when you have to feed the children? Well, that I will give to you. That's a whole other bulldog as well, yes. No, I'm talking about this the satisfaction you get from beating someone else. Does that make sense to you? The satisfaction that you get from beating someone else. Not hitting someone in a in a in a in a parking lot. That's not what I meant. I'm talking about, for example, people are very, very competitive. In and I know if women are competitive, we're told that we are ball breakers and things like that. But in men it's a it's a quality that is admired because oh, they say he's so ambitious. Look at look how cool he is. And but that's neither here nor there. So my question is if you get satisfaction from getting the promotion where somebody else didn't, you two people who you were you were neck on neck in the promotion, you were both equally qualified, and you got the promotion because you were seen as the better candidate, for example. Does that make you somebody who is a bad person because you get a little bit of satisfaction from being the winner? Does that make sense? I would never deem somebody a bad person for whatever quality there is, but I get what you're saying. Julian, uh that's also a sticky subject because we spoke about, well, not on the podcast, but you and I also spoke about the fact that with social media being what it is, and with this age that we are living in, a lot of the time people find their self-worth in comparing themselves to others. Okay. That is that's very dangerous. And it's causing, in my opinion, a lot of dissatisfaction, a lot of hurt, a lot of feeling that you are not good enough. We're living in an era where it's possible to compare yourself, not only to your neighbors, but to people from around the world. And if if we do the comparison game, you will always be unhappy. There will always be somebody with a better job or a little more intelligent or a little prettier or whose husband is a little kinder than yours, et cetera, et cetera. If you base your self-worth or your happiness on comparison, you're screwed. Okay. And I would love to talk about that some at some stage. We might please make that one of our subjects. Okay. Is in terms of what's happening today. And with so with social media or without social media, how the comparison game is causing a lot of hurt and a lot of insecurity in humans. Listen, let me just say I'm not here to preach a truth. I'm just stating my truth. But the point of this podcast for me is absolutely to say that whatever your truth is, that is fine. If your truth is that you really want to chase um being as pretty as your neighbor, by all means go for it. If your truth is that you do like the challenge of a seven-step program to become more efficient as a human being, go for that. Thank you, Steve Kirby. Exactly. Seven habits are very highly effective people. The message that I'm saying is do whatever makes it work for you. But make sure that you know who you are so that you truly understand what works for you. Because I don't think people know themselves. We get, or a lot of people don't know themselves. Let me not make such a sweeping statement. You to understand what makes you happy, and this is what I hope that we bring to people, is a little more happiness. And to understand what makes you happy, you have to understand what you want. I once saw a movie with Reese Witherspoon where she walked into a psychiatrist's office and then changed her mind about being there, walked out, walked back in, and said to him, Listen, if you can just give me one piece of advice that is kind of applicable to everybody everywhere, what would that be? And he said, figure out what you want and then find a way of asking for it. And I thought that was brilliant. So I would just put one more sentence in that there. I would say, figure out who you are, then figure out what you want, and then find a way of asking for it. And in that process, also find some meaning for yourself, whatever that meaning might be. And the meaning for me will differ from the meaning for you. And if you are a f well, this comes down to authenticity, right? Yeah. If you are your true self, if you are authentic, you're going to be eccentric as hell. This idea of normal is a myth, Jillian Eaton. The idea of how you're supposed to be and how you're supposed to be competing at work and then also be very efficient at marathon running and then in the evenings entertain. And look, if this is what makes you happy, by all means, but the standard way of living can't fit every human being. And we try so hard to fit into all these molds. Now I've said a lot of things simultaneously. So you have opinion? Bit of information overload, but okay. Blow your mind. Yeah, no, always. Um you were saying about people being eccentric, but what I what you're saying that if you are your authentic self, you'll be eccentric. Yes, you'll be different. Yeah. Which is great. Different is I love being called weird. If people tell me I'm weird, I'm like, oh, thank you. That's the greatest compliment. People don't necessarily always mean that as a compliment, but yes, I just take it. Leave me alone. I just take the compliment. I'll take them wherever I can get them. Um You were saying now that we if you're eccentric, you you're not not seen as normal or average. But that means that none of us are normal and none of us are average. What is average? What is normal? But that but this is the whole point. So if average is a construct. It's a human construct. They've taken a whole lot of statistics, thrown it in and saying the average woman wears a size six shoe. Or the average man is 1.78 meters tall. It's it's a it's just a a number. Okay. It's the mean. The the the And the average married couple has two point something children. Exactly. Yeah. Statistics. Statistics. It's all statistics. Statistics. It doesn't say anything about us or our uniqueness, and we don't fit into those statistics. I think there's a place for them, huh? Tell me how. Well if you look at education, for example. People are gonna think I'm such a fuddy daddy if I say that we should all be normal. That's not what I mean. You must make sure that you believe in what you say and not fighting with me just for the sake of disagreeing. I'm not fighting with you, but I think that average has a place because you can be happy just being plain average. Of course. But you can be happy just being your plain self. Which isn't which could be an average human being. Yeah, but statistically there won't be a lot of people that slots naturally into the role. But there must be people that slot naturally into it because that's what an average is. There will be. But there will just be a few people that what do you mean by average? Let's just look at the picket fence, the 2.5 children, as you said, the average salary. I don't know what the average salary in South Africa is. You know, you're doing your kids do averagely well at school. You have an average job. I'm overusing the word average, I don't know. Yeah. Listen, let's use the word authentic. If that authentically makes you happy, great. This is where I'm saying I don't think we differ. If that authentically makes you happy, I'm not saying go and be different for the sake of being different. I'm saying be authentic. If this is what you want, the white picket fence, go for it. But if it's not, then please figure out what it is that you want. But what I'm trying to say to you, and I know I'm being very contrary, yeah. So you can kick me under the table if you wish to. I can't feel later. Yeah. Um, what I'm trying to say is if we all become our authentic selves, and you said if you are your authentic self, you will be a little bit eccentric or completely eccentric. Don't even have to become it, you just allow yourself to be it. If you reach the nirvana, notice the sarcasm in my voice. If you become your authentic self and you reach, what did you say just now? Where you sit on a rock and you are self-lightenment. Enlightenment, yes. That's a whole other ballgame. Can I just finish my sentence, please? Thank you. Thank you. So if you if you reach this fantastic place where you're your authentic self and you're an ex you are somewhat eccentric, then eccentric becomes normal. Does that make sense? For you. No, for everyone, because then if everyone's eccentric, then that's average. Jillian, if everybody is authentic, then it won't be frowned upon that much because everybody will be free. If that is what you're saying, absolutely. And that's the hope for me. Okay. That we will learn to accept each other, but we will have to, with all things in life, accept and start with from within. If you can accept yourself, your weird and wondrous self, that will very possibly and very probably differ from what society wants from you. Very probably. Then if you can, then if you can accept yourself, you will also accept others. And then, yes, that utopia you were just talking about will be possible. But in the meantime, let's start with little steps. Let's start with just sitting down once or twice a day and asking yourself, is this what I'm doing? Is this truly what I want to be doing right now? I don't know, you're gonna say, yes, we have to have jobs and we have to go and do that. Absolutely freaking lootly. I said once or twice a day. For one minute, just stop. Ask yourself, what would I truly want to be doing right now? And you will be amazed how you can learn about yourself in those moments and the difference that will start making, like the butterfly effect. If those wings start flapping, let's see what happens. Sorry to be to argue with you again. And I'm not doing it on purpose, but isn't it very self-indulgent to sit there and think, oh, what do I really want from love? Oh God, you really were brought up in a South African household. Indeed. Indeed. Proudly about that a little bit. Because if you grew up in South Africa at a certain age, I was born in 1974. If you grew up here, we were not often, and I'm it's a sweeping statement. So let me just talk for my household, but I think I can speak for a few others, given the people that I've worked with over the years. There was a theme of and to this is Afrikaans, by the way, and that means children should be seen and not heard. So what you wanted oftentimes didn't matter. And we were taught somewhere a little bit explicitly and less explicitly, that if you do stop and take care of yourself, then it is self-indulgent, it is selfish, it is well, a few other words as well. And that also, I don't know if it's this is for the rest of the world, but I think so. This also had to do with being a woman. If you were a woman in South Africa growing up in those years, your focus should be on your husband and your focus should be on your children. Your focus should not be on yourself and what you want. If you did that, then somehow something is inherently wrong with you. I work with a lot of women in therapy, and there's a theme of guilt coming up. If they sit and even allow themselves to read a book at the end of the day, this is the end of the day where they worked their asses off and cooked and did many things, which I still am trying to talk to them about. But after that, even sitting down and reading a book, they feel guilty, they feel self-indulgent. Jillian, we're allowed to be happy. We are allowed to have cake for breakfast if we feel like it. We are allowed to go and sit with a book, we are allowed to swim. Well, I don't know if you're allowed to swim naked in the ocean, but you're definitely allowed to swim in it. You're allowed to be happy. You're allowed to give that to yourself. Am I making you uncomfortable by saying things? I can see. Very much so why? I don't know. I just it just to me it's it's like journaling. I know you often tell me I should journal, but it just seems like you writing down yeah, no, journaling just makes no sense to me. Absolutely no sense, like going from a sort. Makes no sense to me. Yeah. Um, it's a profound act of self-love to listen to yourself. But talk to me, why is it so difficult? Why is there so much guilt if you do something for yourself? What were you taught? I don't think I was explicitly, as you were saying, I wasn't sat down and said, listen, Jillian, you better not, you know, do this. That way, exactly. So my dad would come into the room like at six o'clock in the morning when he was on his way to work and say, Okay, you're wasting the best part of the day, get up. So we were we didn't sleep in. Although I must be honest, we would go downstairs and have breakfast with him. And then when he went to work, we'd jump into bed and um instruct Maria, who looked after us, to wake us up in time so that we could shower and be sort of awake by the time he came home for lunch. So very, very um indulgent in a way, but then you felt g felt guilty about that. You know, when Yeah, because you're wasting. You're wasting wasting the best part of the day. Exactly. You hear the not explicit message in that, right? Exactly. Okay, yeah. So my sister Julie's like that. She can't sleep late because she's wasting the best part of the day. You know, so um I'm a little bit better at that now. To allow yourself to just be. Strong statement, eh? It's a very listen, we teach best what we most need to learn, right? Yeah. Okay, so this podcast is all about just being. Yeah. But it's also about the path to get there. And can you see what we just did? We just looked at why it's so difficult for you. What are the underlying indoctrinations, intentional or not? Yeah. That made us feel that somehow it's not good, we are not deserving, or that there's something wrong with us if we allow that. Do you so this is complex? Are you able to just do something for yourself? Or do you also feel guilty? I'm a lot better at it these days, but it was a very hard path to get here. And I still sometimes find myself, if I do um do nothing for a day, by the evening there's a part of me that's oh it's difficult to describe into words, it starts becoming niggly inside. It's it's there's an uncomfortable thing that makes me want to just move a little bit or do something. And then I would have to go and exercise or do something. So no, I'm not completely free yet, but I'm a lot better because I've looked at why, why this has been. I had a pajama day last Saturday. And by the end of the day, I think I was an impossible person to live with. I think my husband and my son were like, woman, who are you? Sort of thing. And then I said to my husband, Tomorrow I'm not doing nothing. I can't not do anything. And it's it's not like I wanted to build a house or anything like that. I just wanted to do something. Well, that's brilliant, but that's what you wanted, right? That's not because you thought you had to. No, it it it it's it's it's a double-edged sword because I I I couldn't live with myself if I did another day of doing nothing. It would be like, oh, you couldn't live with yourself. That's a whole other bull game. You know, it was like, no, Gillian, come on, don't be so pathetic. So you have to be you have to be productive. Productive, yes. Productive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you see, and that that's that's where I was giving at the beginning. If you choose to be productive, that's okay. Yeah, but we've got to silence these freaking critical voices in our head that we took over from the parents, yeah, and from society, and from all these books telling us how efficient we should be. Yeah. Because we've lost the ability to be, to chill. Yeah, it's it's a soundtrack in your in your in your brain. I will give away my age now by saying it's the tape in your brain that keeps telling you. I already gave away my year of birth, Julian. You brave, brave woman. I know. But you know, so you know the mixtape that we used to make when we were teenagers? I do. I have my own personal mixtape in my head where it's, you know, come on, get up. You can't just sit and do nothing. You know, who do you how do you think this is good enough? You know, that's that critical voice. The critical voice. I have my own very own mixed mixtape of that. So and sometimes it's louder, and sometimes it's yeah. Sometimes I have a conversation with it, which is probably very, very weird. I say, okay, I understand that you have to be there, but shut up now. And we have to address all of this to get to a state of just being. Yeah. Just being can't just be done. In fact, it can't be done. Yeah. It is allowing itself to be, right? So that is a so, and if you can't do it, then you don't have control over it, then that's a whole other journey that we're going down. I I just have a question, and maybe we should devote an entire program to this. Is won't it be boring when you're just being why? Which part would be missing? I don't know. If you and this is where the Dalai Lama comes in. I think if you just reach self-fulfillment, enlightenment. Okay. Can I stop you there for a second? No, no, and I know we're not striving for that. Yeah, we are we're striving for just being. We are striving, some of us are striving for enlightenment, but that's a whole other podcast. Okay. So if you if you're striving to be to just be, and then you reach the just be, won't it be boring? I'm saying the exact opposite. I don't know. I'm saying the exact opposite. If you truly figure out who you are, yeah, and you truly figure out what you want, and you can let yourself be in any moment of that, I'm saying that it would be wondrously and exceptionally different. I'm saying we all think that the absolute ideal is to find an island where we don't have to work, where there's somehow magical coconut trees with cocktails on them, and and a hammock in which we can lie and there's no pressure. I'm saying to you, if you are on that island for longer than three months, you will be bored homeless. Okay. But this is what I'm saying. Yes, but you're assuming that if you allow yourself to just be, that that means you're going to do nothing. You're not going to do nothing. If you're just if you're just being, then you will allow yourself to do whatever it is that you wish to do. That might be dancing in the rain, that might be writing that book you ever thought about, that might be any amount of weird and wondrous things, allowing yourself to be completely eccentric. That will be the opposite of boredom. And yes, you will relax in between. Um, and this is just my idea because I'm talking for me, how that would look for me. And I have no idea how that look would look for you, and how exciting would that be to allow that to happen. Our true selves don't necessarily just want to sit under a tree. No, I I hear that. I hear that. I just think if you aren't striving for anything, whether it's intrinsically or extrinsically, I think you're gonna get bored. Of course. You know? So so how can Just being and not striving are not the same thing. Just being is just allowing yourself to be whoever you want to be. Yes, but the qu you you're saying that we shouldn't have to fix things. I'm saying that look in the mirror and accept that you are good enough just as you are. And then go do whatever you want to do. What's the difference, Jillian? Again, you're not striving for anything. Say for example, you overweight. Say for example, and you're looking in the mirror and you think, yippee kaye, I weigh 300 pounds, and I'm gonna accept that I weigh 300 pounds. Yes. And you don't strive to lose weight then then you're stuck. And I think then that looking in a mirror and judging the holy thing is out of it. Yeah, I I'm not sure if I can swear on a podcast. Go for it. Judging the holy Jesus out of yourself, when you look at yourself in that mirror, you think that that is gonna help you with motivation. You think that our intrinsic motivation should come from believing that this is not good enough. Look how whatever I am. No, all I'm saying is that just being, say for example, just being is you're an apple, okay? And you're just an apple. Shouldn't you want to be uh no, maybe apple's not the right thing? That's the perfect analogy, and thank you for taking us there. If you are an apple on an apple tree, yes, right, how unhappy would you make yourself by trying to be an orange the whole time? How successful would you be in becoming that orange, or of an honor for that matter? Accept the fact that you're an apple, make yourself the most wondrous apple ever. If that is what you want to be, glitter that apple, but you are an apple. No matter what you do, you will be an apple. And if you can accept that, there's a whole bunch of freedom in it. I still think you need a bit of drive, hey. Julian, sorry, Matthew. And come back to this in future parts. Okay, we can do that. Because drive is uh intrinsic and it will come from there. Okay. But as long as it's extrinsic, you're in trouble. I think you just be a better apple. You should strive to be a better apple. That's all I want to do to do. That is what what is frustrating me right now. Why do you have to be a better apple? Just be an apple. Okay, shall we shall we shall we park that subject now so that we can okay? Let's let's let's park it. Me and Jillian differ on the subject. This shall be taken up again. Yes. Still think we should be a better apple, but okay. Okay. And if we talk about things that we love in life. Yeah. Okay. What are yours? People. I love people. I'm a complete and utter extrovert. I get my energy from people. I am always engaging with people, much to my family's distress, because if they go grocery shopping with me, it takes twice as long because I talk to everyone. And I think I think I'm able to connect with people. I think that's one of my my strengths. Um so I love people. Um generally I'm weird because like Budgie Smuggler fella, if I I was very upset with not upset with him, but it it was just on fun passe. It wasn't it wasn't the right thing to do. But then if I sit and think, I think, well, Shane, maybe he doesn't know better. So maybe that's my my um fatal flaw as well. I always find that people I always think that maybe there's a reason. There's always a reason. Yes, there's always a reason. It's a reason. You see, that's the why of a human being. That that that but I love people. Absolutely love people. I don't I don't necessarily like all people. I one day when I'm enlightened, I might, but currently, no, I don't like all people. But I do love human kindness. I do love the fact that humans can be exceptionally endearing and that they can find, like we said at the beginning, that they can find hope in very, very dark places. I have seen humans go through hell here in therapy. Well, I've witnessed them go through hell, but I've also been a witness to their past where they have gone through hell and walked out on the other side. And Khalil DeBron, the prophet, said the most massive characters are seared with scores. I have seen them with their scores being incredible on the other side of it. Having walked through all of that, and I'm I'm thinking of Nelson Gondela, and still on the other side, not wanting to exact revenge, not having hardened their heart to life, um, still being open to joy and love and kindness. That is why I do the work that I do, and that is why I adore humans. Like I said, not all humans. I think you're yeah, you're ahead of me there. Not all humans, definitely not. But that part of it is what I adore working with. I wonder if you if you did a study and if you looked at people who hadn't really suffered in life, whether they turn out to be people who don't have empathy. I don't I don't know. I've always wondered about that. I think saying don't have empathy is is is a strong statement. I think we need the suffering to understand the uh the level of resilience that is within us. Yeah. That I truly believe. And I do believe that it creates a great empathy within you. But I also believe that we are born with a level of empathy. You think so? Yeah, I truly believe the human spirit, if left unhurt and undamaged, is amazing. Uh I think the damage is done by humans. Yeah, so we're our own worst enemy. Oftentimes, yes. I I I I just think that if you f find somebody who hasn't, is that a relatively good life? I know everybody gets hurt along the way, that's just the way life is. But I think they have lack uh less empathy um than people who have walked through hell. Not all people who have walked through hell come out on the other side w with empathy. Okay. It is just if you've I actually don't know exactly what makes a difference, if it's a different spirit, if it is grace, if it is people that make the choice. To have walked through the other side and work on themselves and never to be like whoever hurt them, like the people that created the damage. I I don't understand what makes people make either that choice, to be fully emphatic and fully themselves and truly amazing. Um and I sometimes wonder if it's a choice, but this is a very strong and deep other discussion for another podcast. But yes, this is what I love about humans, and this is why I love the work that I do. But this podcast isn't always about the darkness. No. This podcast is about the light. And you're gonna give me absolute hell about being yourself. I could see that today. But but this is what the podcast is about. It's about fun, it's about living life to its fullest and in the truest way possible. It's about that that truly elusive happiness. You know, everybody searches for happiness the whole time. This is this is what most of the books it's happiness and love. This is what we crave, right? The self-help books, which I don't really believe in. I know you don't, but some of them are really, really good. But that's not the point. It is this is what humans crave. Um, and happiness is fleeting. It's elusive, eh? It's it really is. Because what makes you happy today doesn't necessarily make you happy in a year's time. And we're born on this earth, and there's losses, of course, and there's unpredictability, and there's hardships, and we can't get around that. Yeah, and life life is not fair. No, no, no, no. So we're searching for something deeper than just a constant happiness or tracing those highs the whole time. Because that's the part that would be boring. What what if everything was oh, there you see, if everything was happy all the time, of course that would be boring. That is what I was trying to get out of here. Life happens. Yeah, I want to hear you. Yes, life happens. But you got there in the end, and that's magic. Thank you, Gillian. No worries. No, life happens and there will be darkness. It's not about what happens outside of you, it's how you handle it. But in all those moments, understanding exactly what you feel and being authentic to all of it. And then also being authentic to what brings you comfort and what brings you joy. And this would be living fully because you are just you. Does that make more sense? It it kind of does make more sense now. Yes. I thought you were making us like, I don't know, go live in a rainbow world where everything's perfect. Yeah, there was a there was a Lego movie once. Everything is perfect when you're part of a team, and it's not. No, it's not. Life is not perfect. No. And the being who you are in the imperfection and still finding meaning and wonder in it, yes. And then allowing yourself those moments of cake. I'm looking at the cake on the table here. We're being true to what we say. We are, indeed. Yes, cake for breakfast, guys. That's because you can. Because you can. Exactly. And in my opinion, you should. Yeah. If that's your thing, and I don't know what your thing is, but do your thing and do it passionately and constantly, and then see what happens. Yeah, find your thing and embrace it. Exactly. And the trick would be to yeah, not judge yourself for whatever that is. And then later on in life, if we can get to it, no judge others for what theirs is either. Once you told me that we judge things which that we feel we are. Yeah, we often do that. Which is quite an interesting, yeah. But that's your shadow side. Make an ad, Jillian, make a night. We need to talk about it. I'm writing it down. Shadow side. Okay. Yeah, because that's quite an interesting, interesting thing to talk about. Interesting. Yeah, you like the shadows, eh? You you you you always want somebody, the person's shadow to come out. I like the things that I can see. Yeah. My therapist, I've seen my therapist for over 23 years because I also believe that you can't take people or help, well, witness people on their path if you haven't walked your own path. Okay. So my therapist talks about the white shadow and the dark shadow. The dark shadow, the shadow is the parts of yourself, and we'll get into this later, but it's the parts of yourself that you don't like. And as long as you don't acknowledge them, you will find them in others and judge the holy crap out of them for their part, right? So when you speak about the shadow part, is that like the the the naughty bit about you, the bad girl? Oh, you look way too excited about this. What are you suppressing today? A whole talk about a whole lot. No. Um this is what you deem as bad. That's what you label as bad. This is the those selfish things that you spoke about. We're not allowed to be selfish and we're not allowed to be rude, and we're not about allowed to be jealous, and all the things that you yourself think you shouldn't be. Yeah. And then when it pops up, you just subconsciously even just don't acknowledge it and push it down. And then if somebody else is jealous, you judge them. But is that the naughty side of you? Well, I don't know which side of you are you suppressing. No, but no, but but the question is we we've spoken about this before, the shadow side, and I use very basic terminology to describe it. The good, the good, the good Jillian and the bad Jillian. That makes sense. So when we discuss it, my question would be You you hear the judgment inherently in the use of the word bad or naughty for that matter. Yeah, but what other words are they? That is the question. How how else would you describe it? The suppressed parts of you that you deem, like you said, wrong or naughty. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Those suppressed parts. And remember when I said figure out who you are, yeah, and then what you want, and then give it to yourself? Figuring out who you are involves those parts. Okay. It involves all of your parts. You can't just get to know the Larry Doe unicorn and rainbows and puppies in a field parts. It means understanding all your parts. And then, Julie Nitton, understanding all your needs, and then giving them to yourselves. Of course, your needs will not contradict anybody else's and you will not hurt always. That we have to say. Yeah. But yes, you look at you look at everything that you are and everything that you need, and then you find a way of giving it to yourself. Imagine a world like that. Yes, there might be some rainbows and unicorns, but yes, there will be some darkness and hurricanes as well. And if that is what makes it interesting, then yes, you're right. That is what makes it interesting. I think often people have suppressed the dark side or the shadow side so much that they've got no idea that it exists. Yes, I agree with you. And and if you question them about it or push them a little bit, they get defensive. Very. You know, so and the more defensive, the quicker they get, then you realize you've really pressed on something here. But please don't tell people then, oh, I see you're getting defensive. I must be right. That is a surefire way. I've got you in a corner now. Yeah. Yeah, I see that I'm pressing on something that is triggering for you. Yeah. What are you trying to hide? Exactly. It's usually not the way to make friends and influence people, June. Damn. I was gonna go out and do that though. Listen, but the other thing that's also really important that we haven't voiced here is that yes, we will talk a lot about psychology and a lot about theories. And as I figured out today, you're gonna challenge me on a lot of them. By the way, we're doing this podcast together. We both believe in Kate for breakfast. Okay, we will have some of this discussion again. Let us just get on the same page in terms of what we're doing here. But in the same breath, thank you for challenging me. I really enjoy that. We should always challenge each other and get to the depth and see, and also maybe just trigger each other's shadow side at some stage. I'm very nervous about you triggering my shadow side. I think you know exactly where it is. I think you'll say, come out and play a bad Jillian, and then and then I'll have to put it back in the bottle and a little bit. I can't even do the my evil villain impression now because the the whoever is listening can't see exactly. You look pretty evil. Thank you. Enough said, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, but what we also need to say is the disclaimer that although we will talk about a lot of psychological things, and anybody is welcome to message us and you will give all that detail. Ask for anything that we need to talk about, ask for advice, and we will gladly do so. But this should not be seen as a substitute for real therapy. And if there's a real need for help, please contact a psychologist close to you, clinical psychologist, if there's any depression or anxiety or complex BTSD or a psychiatrist or go to your GP. This is just us talking about life, and there will be a lot of psychological themes in it as well. And also if you don't have a GP or you can't afford a psychologist, because that is unfortunately the reality, there that places like FAMSA and uh Sadag Sadag and the Samaritans and things like that. They all they all help will help. So um I'll put up their details on our website, which is cakeforbreakfast.co.za, and that is where we'll post all our podcasts, and there'll be a contact us section there so that you can definitely send us all your requests or I don't know, what do you call it when you badmouth someone? Gossiping, Julian. No, not gossiping. No, like if you want to say that you think that we are hate male. Yes. If you want to say to us, listen, you horrible people, what the hell are you doing? Let us know. And you did not hear that voice in the background, Bailey? That's our producer. Could you make that is our producer, Bailey? That's also part of the show. And we're gonna make him fit into the show in weird and wondrous ways that he doesn't yet recognize. Um, Bailey, do you just want to say a hello into Gillian's microphone so that people can hear your wonderful voice, please? Give it a second. He's moving across to the microphone. There he is. Hello. Hi, I'm the producer, I guess. Yes, yes, you are. Thank you, Bailey. Thank you, Bailey. We are most appreciative of your time and your effort. And we will maybe maybe find help you find your authentic self too. You could just listen to us and then strive for that. As he is sitting there, he very much looks like his authentic self, Jillian. I think we can learn from him. He's younger than us, so maybe maybe we should learn learn from them from the mouth of babes. You always do, right? Yeah, it's very true. Yeah, very true. So I think that is that for today. Yeah. We've got interesting topics still to cover. Yeah, we do. We do. I'm very excited. I think it's gonna be a hell of a journey. Loads of fun. Yeah, loads of fun. Yeah, and my hope is that we reach a lot of people and just take some of the burden off of them of what we're supposed to be doing with this life and the pressure to be perfect the whole time. Yeah, that's what I am. We we're not we're not preaching and telling you what to do. We're on the journey with you, if that makes sense. Yeah, of course. Because as I said, I want to be a better apple, and apparently I'm not allowed to be a better apple. I just have to be an apple. If you want to be a better apple, be it. I'm just saying don't tell everybody else that they need to be a better apple. I'm trying to say that be whatever apple you are, or if you are the elusive orange, then yay. Yeah. Okay, just be who you are. Okay, well, until next time, guys. Thanks for your time. Thank you, Marley. Thank you, Jillian. And um, we'll chat again. Chat later. Cheers. Bye.