You're Thinking About Protein All Wrong with Simon Hill

Nutritionist, physiotherapist, and host of The Proof podcast (40M+ listens) Simon Hill sits down with Almost Forever hosts Renee and Melanie to challenge the way we think about protein, plaque, and what's actually in our control when it comes to aging. Drawing on two landmark Harvard studies, Simon explains why the protein conversation has become "way too reductionist." He shares the formative moment that set his life's work in motion — and how he reframed cardiovascular disease as a largely modifiable, not purely genetic, fate. Simon walks through testing his own arteries, dropping his own ApoB through diet alone, and achieving real plaque regression. He also reveals the two most surprising dementia risk factors and why resistance training, not more protein, may be the most important missing piece for the average person.

In our Mailbag: the right sauna dose for women (and how it may differ from male protocols), whether fruit is bad for you in the age of CGMs and blood-sugar fears, the "personal fat threshold" and how Prolon's 5-Day Fasting Mimicking Diet can support metabolic markers and reduce visceral fat while protecting muscle, and how much of our longevity is actually written in our genes.

Myth or Method: Seed cycling — does eating specific seeds across your follicular and luteal phases actually balance hormones?

🕐 Chapters: 

• 0:00 "Small amounts add up over decades — and that's where you get these risk reductions." 
• 2:16 Myth or Method: Does seed cycling actually balance your hormones? 
• 9:53 Meet Simon Hill — nutritionist, physiotherapist, and host of The Proof 
• 10:54 The longevity hill: it's the source of your protein, not just the amount 
• 13:04 Two Harvard studies: why plant protein wins for healthy aging 
• 21:30 Plant-to-animal ratio vs. protein density — what matters most for your heart 
• 25:56 Why resistance training beats simply eating more protein 
• 28:22 From physiotherapy to nutrition — and his dad's heart attack at 41 
• 34:44 Testing his own arteries: plaque, ApoB, and rewriting the family script 
• 37:11 Plaque regression is real — how he did it with diet alone 
• 45:07 The fear of losing cognition — and the hidden dementia success story 
• 47:47 Lancet's 14 modifiable risks: uncorrected vision and hearing loss 
• 52:11 Unregulated peptides and GLP-1s — the promise and the risk 
• 1:00:53 Mailbag: What's the right sauna dose for women? 
• 1:06:21 Mailbag: Is fruit bad for me? CGMs, blood sugar, and the real story 
• 1:14:02 Mailbag: Prolon's 5-Day FMD, the personal fat threshold, and restoring insulin sensitivity 
• 1:17:51 Mailbag: How much of longevity is genes vs. everything else?

Simon Hill is a qualified physiotherapist and nutritionist with a Master of Science in Human Nutrition from Deakin University, and the founder and host of the wildly popular podcast The Proof (40M+ listens). After his father's heart attack inspired him to study nutrition's role in preventing disease, Simon built an evidence-based platform translating the latest peer-reviewed science on nutrition, cardiovascular health, and longevity for a global audience. In 2024, he released The Living Proof Challenge, a zero-cost 12-week challenge to help people optimize important biomarkers to lower their risk of disease and live better for longer. He is also the author of The Proof Is in the Plants — a #1 non-fiction bestseller on debut in Australia — and a leading voice for a more plant-forward, nuanced conversation about how we eat to live longer, healthier lives.

Have a longevity question? DM us @prolon on Instagram and you might make it into our mailbag!

Learn more about Prolon's 5-Day Fasting Mimicking Diet and longevity lifestyle products  at prolonlife.com. 

Almost Forever is brought to you by Prolon, powered by L-Nutra, the longevity technology company. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only and is not intended as medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or a substitute for professional healthcare services. Always consult a qualified healthcare provider before making changes to your diet, exercise, supplement, or health routine. Guest views are their own and may not reflect those of Prolon or its parent company L-Nutra. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You could smoke for a week or a month. It's probably not going to give you lung cancer. You smoke across decades, it increases your risk of lung cancer. Same thing with plant protein. You're increasing your exposure over decades. Small amounts is going to add up. And that's where you get these risk reductions that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hello, Renee. How are you doing? Hi, Melanie. It's great to be here with you today. You look beautiful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

You know, there's nothing like waking up at 5 a.m. taking a quick, it's it's we're post-Memorial Day and this traffic is.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Yeah. Well, I woke up at 2:30 in the morning today. Because I am still carpeting. I was just so excited for our interview today. No, I mean probably a little bit of that, to be honest, because I had a little bit of um like uh like our guest today um to me is like V V V IP in the nutritional world I was stoked about that. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

And then fan fan dietic and fangirls over here for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Fangirl for sure. And then also uh, you know, jet lag.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

So well, you know, here it's a little bit a little bit, a little bit of both losing. Well, I yeah, I I didn't have my my little baby last night, so I actually got like, even though it was only seven hours, it was like a good seven hours. Not to say that so you got good sleep thus. I congratulate I did. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. Exciting longevity in the drop in my postpartum longevity bucket. You know, I'm here for it. Um well, we have an incredible conversation coming. We we're both stoked about having Simon Hill on our episode uh today. So we're that's upcoming. Um we have incredible uh myths or methods that are we're gonna be talking about today about seed cycling. Yeah. Um but make sure you stay tuned towards the end because we always do a mailbag. We say it every every episode, but we do a mailbag where you can consist with your questions.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

I know we got deep. We did we only got to three because we just went in on these. Like Simon had so much to say.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Let's dive into our mither method.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

This is this is gonna be a fun one, I think, for both of us.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Uh this I'm I'm personally, as you know, very, very excited about our mither method today. It is all about seed cycling. Seed cycling, whether or not it is beneficial, how to use it, if should it be implemented. Yeah. Shall I begin? I think you should start. Yeah. I think you should start. I I um, full disclosure, use seed cycling often with my female clients. Yeah. Seed cycling is a process by which you utilize uh two different types of seeds at different cycles of your um well, at different phases of your cycle. So for your follicular phase, which is day one of your period to the day that you ovulate, so the first 14 days of your cycle, you will consume pumpkin seeds and flax seeds. Ideally, I like to tell people to grind them the day that you're consuming it for more potency, about a tablespoon of each a day, add it to your breakfast, smoothies, whatever you're gonna consume. Then you'll switch the seeds on day 14 until the first day of your cycle, which is called your luteal phase, and you will consume sunflower seeds and um sesame seeds. And again, one tablespoon of each, ideally ground up for potency. Um, very easy, honestly, to the hardest part about, and well, before I go there, the reason that you do this is or the the way that we utilize this in a functional way is the there are the sesame seeds in the luteal phase and the flax seeds in the follicular phase are considered phytoestrogens, phytonutrients that help to support whether you have excess estrogen or not enough estrogen at different varying cycles of your um phases of your cycle, the phytoestrogen can though go and actually plug and play. It's one of those interesting um has estrogen mimicking like compounds within them that can help to support your body while you're transitioning and cycling through. A lot of people have, there are lots of women that have um low estrogen that need support. So, but the benefit of doing seed cycling is as with all nutrition, we actually kind of talked about that in our conversation with Simon today, is it's not something that you just do for one month. It's something that compounds over time. And so consistency is the most important and probably the hardest part about seed cycling is that you actually do need to do it for long periods of time. Um now, the varying, not to I'll hand it to you because I'm very curious about what you've read. Um, but the the it it does, it's not necessarily something for everybody. It's it depends on who, where, what type of hormonal issues that you're experiencing. Um, but I have found in my work with patients, significant reductions in for people who have really bad PMS, bad cramping, bad um sleep issues, that that seed cycling can significantly reduce those issues. And also I've seen that I have a lot of patients who are in the peri and postmenopausal stage of life. And it can actually help to, especially for those who aren't necessarily on, or even if you are on um HRT, hormone replacement therapy, it can be supportive to continuing to become be cyclical and and following that pattern. So I've I found it to be a lovely light therapy therapy for a lot of my female patients specifically. Okay, I want to hear your thoughts. Yes. For for me, this is for for me, this this has um methods for sure. It's it's not as with a lot of things, it's not necessarily for everybody, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

I so I was significantly less familiar with seed cycling than you are, because you obviously use it in your in your practice, but I did my my own research to figure out what is the science here. What is the science? And right now, there really just isn't much clinical evidence to support this as being beneficial. Now, let me caveat that. The research that there was a uh review of research that tried to use seeds for PCOS and for women's health more broadly, and they did see that things like flax seed were helpful. But in terms of actually cycling it, there's just really not any evidence there. So my yet. But they've they've tried to do it, and what they're they're finding is like yes, these as and these seeds and especially flax seeds have some of these this impact of kind of being this balancing act on estrogen, but the impact is pretty small. So its ability to make like really big change, I I wonder if if it's the seed cycling or something else, or if it's placebo effect, or what is it? I'm not sure. We we would have to have better trials to know what's actually happening. But do I think that people should not have flax seeds? Heck no. Flax seeds are healthy and amazing. And I think uh, you know, the hopefully more research will be done. But this is this concept of seed cycling comes essentially from like traditional Chinese medicine, then kind of got reinvigorated in like the 2010 kind of era, um, by individuals who practice functional medicine. But there's just really for me, it is not clinically validated enough for me to consider it a method.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

But if you have as with a as with a lot of things that are in the functional world, yeah, simply because we yeah, people don't put money into female research and also um things that are related to this specificity of nutrition.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

So so I think for me though, if if this is like kind of the only thing that's really left for you to try, or this is something that your practitioner is like, I think that this will really work for you, there's no harm. So, like, yeah, it's gentle.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

It's it's seeds.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

We you know, I'm never gonna tell somebody.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

But you need you need more nuts and seeds in your diet, anyways. I mean, yes. And the the thing that you that spawned a thought for me with what you just said is um flax seeds have the most calcium of any food. Um, and it's really important to note that for my perimetapausal, postmenopausal women who estrogen and calcium are very closely connected, also. So there could be a uh an effect on them the mineral composition, a vitamin mineral composition of the body as you change. There really isn't, unless you have some sort of nut or seed issue, there's really not a lot of downsides to practicing something like that. It can have, I've found significant impacts on things like PMS symptoms. People have, but it is something you have to do every day. It's not something you can you can pulse. Um so anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

I I I think I think you're gonna go method.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Yes. I'm gonna go untested method.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Okay. You know, like I think that was very kind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

I don't think it's a myth because for it to be a myth, it would have to be proven wrong. Yes. And it has not been proven wrong. There you go. So there you go. Go grab your seeds. Ladies. Sure.

unknown 9:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Sure. Grab your seeds, no problem. Um, all right, let's get into this episode. Uh, you guys are gonna have so much fun. And stay tuned at the end, we still have our mailbags, so make sure you follow to the to the tail end. Not that it's riveting. You're glad to.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Let's go get a seat with Mr. Simon Hill.

SPEAKER_04 9:53

There we go. As dietitians, we are very happy and excited to have you on our show. We have the wonderful Simon Hill here with us, who is a nutritionist and physiotherapist, um, the founder of Living Proof, uh, including the Proof podcast, which has over, I think, 40 million listeners, which is incredible. Um, you have done so much in the nutrition space and all very plant forward, um, talking a lot about the I think your book is called The Proof, Proof is in the Plants, I believe, um, which is very aligned with a lot of what we talk about here. So we're very excited to have you on to be here.

unknown 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Feelings of mutual. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Yes, of course. So we usually like to kick things off with one of a relatively standard question that we ask all of our guests. It's what is the longevity hill that you will die on? Which means what is something that you feel like isn't being talked about enough? What do you think needs to be shouted from the rooftops so that people can support a healthier, longer life?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

I'm gonna come back to protein here.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Which it seems obvious, and and protein right now is having a moment. It seems to always be having a moment. But I I think about protein, I think a little different to the way that protein's being portrayed in the mainstream media right now. I think it's great that there's a lot of emphasis right now on maintaining your functional independence as you age and staying strong. And so there's this this quite strong message right now to make sure you're getting enough protein. And I I I think we should be asking a different question than other than how much protein do we need. I think we should be asking what foods that are rich in protein are going to help us maintain our physical independence and stay strong, but also are gonna keep us healthy in 30 or 40 years' time.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

And that's the piece that seems to be missing. And so the hill that I'll die on is that our protein conversation is way too reductionist. And when you look at the totality of evidence, it's clear that yes, protein amount, it's important, just like any macronutrient, getting essential fats and having carbohydrates, all these things are important. But the source of the protein where it's coming from becoming a little bit uh a little bit uh broader in the way that we're thinking about protein really dictates our risk of disease. So are we at risk of develop developing cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, these diseases that we're all trying to to avoid, yeah, right, that are robbing people of quality of life. So that's that's the kind of hill that I would die on.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

I mean, reductionist thinking is the problem in nutrition science. Like it has, I feel like it's always been a problem and it seems to continue to be a problem. But I'm curious to know the the answer to to that question or or where you would suggest that people find their protein sources. What is the final wreck on your side?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

And this answer is nuanced, right? So that's another thing. I think often we look for the black or white answer and the absolute answer, which does tend to get most of the attention in on social media and whatnot. So there's two landmark papers from last year that speak to this question that I think did a really good job at trying to tease this out, um, both out of Harvard, looking at big populations of people tracked over decades.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And the neat thing about these types of studies is that you can assess how someone eats and you can then track them over not weeks or months, which a clinical trial usually does, but you can track them over a long enough period to see who develops disease.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

Longitudinal.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

And you can also in in the high quality versions of these studies reassess diet periodically. So in these papers, they were reassessing the diet every four years, as opposed to just doing a baseline dietary questionnaire and assuming people eat like that for 30 years. Right. So this was high quality in that context.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

And they used food frequency questionnaires?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah. So they use food frequency questionnaires. So there's two, these two landmark studies both use those types of food frequency questionnaires and and redid them every four years to pick up on any dietary change. And you know, most of us will adjust our diet through our life a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

You should.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. And the first one was really interested in looking at does midlife protein intake, how does that affect what they called healthy aging? And healthy aging in this paper was a composite outcome, and it included being free of 11 chronic diseases, it included having good mental health, it included having good cognitive health, and it included being physically independent.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Sign me up.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Sounds like health spans. This is a pretty that's a pretty like thorough kind of definition of healthy aging. I think most people, if you if you could say you're gonna have all of that later in life. And and and just to be a little more specific, physical independence meant that these people didn't rely on anyone else to go to the grocery store to walk down the street, to get in and out of the car, etc. Activities of of daily living. And this was nearly 50,000 adults, and they were followed for 30 years. Only 7% of them met that criteria by the end of the study when this study was done. So 93% of people didn't qualify for what was considered to be healthy aging.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

And this was at mid-age.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

And this was looking at so they were looking at their their protein intake. Specifically, the researchers were interested in how does protein intake and source of protein affect that outcome later in life.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Make sense? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah we're with you. We're with you.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

And then then so then they're interested in, okay, the people that are that did well and met that criteria of healthy aging, what were they doing differently in terms of of protein? And what became clear in this study, and coming back to your question around what does this actually look like, so firstly, people that had higher intake of plant protein had hell a greater odds of healthy aging. Significantly greater odds of healthy aging. Okay. They had significantly greater odds of having good cognition and significantly greater odds of being physically independent.

unknown 16:30

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Right. They then did a substitution analysis where they were looking at uh animal protein, dairy protein, and plant protein. And what I can say there is plant protein performed the best from a healthy aging perspective, and then dairy protein, and then the other animal proteins.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Graham.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Right. And that's kind of as far as that study went in terms of the substitutions. Though there were still broad categories.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Does that include fish? I'm assuming it does include fish, or does that have an outlying?

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah, I wish they actually separated fish out because I would say the rest of the the rest of the you always have to look at this within the totality of evidence. The rest of the evidence that we have on fish tends to associate with good health outcomes. Definitely compared to red and to white meat. Sure. I think there are juries out a little bit. How does fish compare to nuts and seeds and legumes? And and maybe that comparison, there's less of an effect either way. But to circle back to your original question, and then we can we can come to that other paper if you want as well. When I think about protein and what this looks like when someone's at the grocery store, the average American right now is getting 75% of their protein every day from animal protein. 25% from plant.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

And if if we could just get that to 50-50, it would make a huge difference. And that means eating less red and white tends to be where a lot of that animal protein comes from, less red and white meat, and eating more beans and lentils and chickpeas and tempeh and tofu. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. But it's making some swaps through the week so that the ratio of animal to plant protein is moving more towards an even ratio.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

I'm really grateful that you said that because we we your the hill that you die on or want to die on is also the one that we will also die on. We we, especially right now, because it's such a big conversation. But whenever we come out the gate and say something like you're getting too much protein or you're eating too much animal proteins, people it's very it's a super emotional reaction that people have, right? They're very attached to what they're eating in their diets. And I love when you say it's not all or nothing, it's it's just more plants. It's more plant forward, right? It's it's a little bit more emphasis on foods that are both protein and fiber and you know plant from plants.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

And when you're only asking for an additional 25% to your total 100%, I mean, if you think about how many meals you're having a day, it's probably like switching one of one, maybe one and a half of your meals every day with a plant-based source of protein.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah, or just having a slightly smaller piece of chicken or steak and adding some lentils or chickpeas to that meal as well. Or if you're making an a lasagna, right, instead of having that completely being ground beef, have half of it as lentils, things like that, where you can you can sort of sneak these foods in and you're hungry, Raynah. Sorry about that. The other thing here is that that swap doesn't have to mean a sacrifice in joy and flavor. Right, yes. So these foods don't have to be bland. All those foods I reeled off peas, beans, lentils, chickpeas, etc., tofu, tempeh, that if you're not used to eating those foods, you might hear me right now and think, oh, it doesn't sound very good.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

But trust me, with just a little bit of practice, and you know, everything that is new takes takes a bit of time and a bit of practicing. Yeah. With a little bit of practice and thought about the flavors that you enjoy, you can bring those flavors to those foods.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And so in each each time you're doing this, you're getting a cumulative effect across your life. And this is how I like people to think about it. It's this is not something we want you to do for a week or a month. Right. It's kind of like smoking, right? You could smoke for a week or a month. It's probably not going to give you lung cancer. You smoke across decades, it increases your risk of lung cancer. Same thing with plant protein. You're increasing your exposure over decades, small amounts is going to add up, and that's where you get these risk reductions that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

So in this study, you know, they're definitely leaning towards plant proteins, but have they within the plant protein group looked at amount of plant protein? So were those who were consuming more plant protein versus potentially like the lower group of plant protein, um, if they were primarily plant protein eaters, did they do that?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

That's a great question. I feel like you you've been reading my mind until I wanted to get there. That's the second study. So this is the second very you guys are very well read.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Listen to the Almost Forever podcast.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

Simon Hill approved, yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

That's impressive. Uh I should be asking you. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

We're not awaiting Simon eagerly.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

So the second study was done by Andrew Glenn. This is also out of Harvard, and I actually had her on my show recently to go through this in detail. I was waiting for this kind of study to come out because it it was looking at not only animal versus plant protein, but the total protein density of the diet.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Because you could have a high plant to animal protein diet in a context of a low protein diet, a moderate And a high.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Okay. And so they were interested, they did two different papers, but the first one was looking at cardiovascular mortality, so risk of dying from cardiovascular disease. And again, they saw that higher plant to animal ratio was lower, lower risk of cardiovascular mortality. And the lowest risk was at about a one-to-one ratio. They didn't have enough subjects eating more plant protein than that. So that's kind of where they got to. Then they asked the question of okay, once you have a high plant-to-animal protein ratio, does protein density matter? And this is a question that I think a lot of people in the plant-based community have kind of been waiting for. Yes. They actually found the people that did the best had the lowest cardiovascular mortality. Can you guess?

SPEAKER_04 22:52

I mean, I moderate. I was going to say moderate moderate.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

Low? High.

unknown 22:57

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

So people that were eating. The people that were eating more protein but had a bias to plant protein, they did better than the people that had a bias to plant protein but had a low protein diet.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Wow. Oh are you surprised? I'm a little surprised. You know what? I'm actually not. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Because of all of the research that we're seeing on protein for muscular health and strength, which we know has better longevity outcomes. Especially as you age for sure. I mean, this is specifically for cardiovascular health, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

So they looked again at total mortality.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

And that was also better for with high.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Yeah. And that's why I would see it for there. But for cardiovascular health specifically, you know, increased plant proteins. We see, you know, w like the phytonutrients that are in, for example, tofu, tempeh, et cetera. There's probably some added benefits.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

Fiber content binds to things like cholesterol and removes it from your body, all the things that we know are are problematic for cardiovascular patients.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

But it's probably a combination of you're reducing your exposure to certain things in animal proteins that are harmful at a certain dose. So when you're eating a lot of animal protein, you increase your exposure to hemion, for example, which is associated with increased risk of cardiovascular disease. And then the prot from the protein density side of things, as you're saying, it it's a it's a package. So as you're getting more plant protein, certainly you're dialing up fiber. Resistant starch is another one, um, which the microbiome ferments and we can increase in short-chain fatty acids, which which have a whole lot of effects on the body, polyphenols, you know, the list kind of goes on.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Um but that this research has certainly I think made me feel stronger in my position that when someone shifts from a typical diet to a more plant-based diet, I don't think it's enough just to tell people, okay, just eat less animal protein and protein will take care of itself.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Because if they're removing steak and chicken and instead just eating, you know, just whole grains or whatever grains and not focusing on those more protein-rich plant foods, then I think they they may not be getting as good of outcomes as they could be getting.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

For sure. So is go, go. She's passionate. She's excited.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

This is great research, and I'm so glad that it exists. Um do with everybody now all over social media going for this gram per pound level of protein, do you think that with this research we can justify gram per pound of protein from plant-based sources? Or is that still too high?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

I don't think I don't think so from this research. Yeah. The the high protein group, just so we're clear, was 20% of total calories. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Okay. So that's that's about what we would recommend anyway.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, it's not a gram per pound for the typical person. It's going to be less than that. And the average person in America, based on the on the studies that I've looked at, tends to get kind of 1.1 to 1.2 grams per kilogram.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yes. Kilogram specifically.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Per kilogram.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

Which is not per gram.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yes, per kilogram. And look, there could be an argument that could be a tiny bit higher, maybe for some people within the population. But my my argument would be that if if the average person was to maintain 1.2 grams per kilogram, but have the bias to plant protein, the outside of that, the most important missing piece of the puzzle is resistance training. Because once you go from 1.2 grams per kilogram to say 1.6, if you look at the research looking at muscle like hypertrophy and strength, the the the the effect size is very, very small, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

So sarcopenia that we're experiencing like in America or in Australia, muscle muscle loss. Which is muscle loss. I don't think you can create a strong argument that that's that's primarily driven through a lack of protein.

unknown 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

When you look at the average protein intake, it's driven through a sedentary lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

So for the average person out there, I think the message is you don't have to go and eat way more protein than you're eating. I think you should think about where you're getting your protein from. Yes. Make suitable swaps.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

And then do resistance training regularly.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

And if you do those two things, can we just mic drop? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Well, that study just also came out uh like I I kid you not, like a couple of weeks ago that that did that in older adults where they took older adults, they gave them a ton of protein. Some were doing more uh weight training versus the others, and only those were that were doing the weight training with the higher protein actually saw the benefit. Yeah. And so it's not just, you can't just have a ton of protein and not do the weight training. It's not gonna give you the same results.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

Yeah. The the idea that the more protein you eat, the more cut you're gonna be is not quite one for one, like people like to think.

unknown 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Man, we could probably just keep talking about this for another six hours. But I that was a great hill. But I am curious to know a little bit more about you, Simon. You know, your background originally was in physiotherapy, and then you decided to make a switch into the world of nutrition, and I'm curious what prompted that.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

So I was working with uh professional footballers. I don't know if you know AFL.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Yes. Yeah, sure. Have you guys seen it? Sure. Yeah, it's like a assuming it's Australian rules.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

It's Australian rules football.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

It's a it's a a type of football where you don't wear padding and it's pretty physical. Great game. So I were I was working in that um in that area and I was focused on sp like rehabbing injuries and um strength and conditioning and those sorts of things. And also I had uh an interest in nutrition myself personally, and realized that most of the nutrition information I was picking up was from the locker room and from magazines. And I'd just gone through university, had done this physiotherapy degree, and had learned about what evidence-based practice is in a completely different field.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

But it kind of dawned on me that I had these strong beliefs about nutrition, and I really I knew nothing. I'd never looked at the the nutrition literature. And so I just picked this up from people around me and assumed it to be accurate and held on to it.

SPEAKER_04 29:51

Yeah. Uh which I want to go into what those were. I want to know, I know, I want to know what like Yeah, well, I mean you can probably guess.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So so you know, the I was reading all the fitness magazines, and so my diet was had not much diversity in Australia. A lot of red protein, yeah. A lot of red meat, and so beef and lamb. Carnivore's very popular in Australia. Um, whey protein, and then veggies was broccoli and sweet potato and maybe some rice.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah, some good meal prep action probably happening. Yeah, totally. I see it.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Typical dude in his early 20s. Yeah. I was keeping things simple. And to be honest, my health was great because when you're young, it is generally you have more wiggle room. Yeah, you have more wiggle room, and um it's not as though eating a diet that's increasing your risk of disease. You're not gonna experience that usually in your 20s.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Right. Um, so everything was kind of going swimmingly, and I was also playing sport myself and and things were great. But I realized I had this knowledge deficit, and my my the first time I really ever ex saw that firsthand that health's not guaranteed. I don't know if you guys have ever had this experience, but when I grew up, like as a little kid, kind of didn't really understand the concept of death until I started to see people around me have experienced poor health or my grandparent grandparents die or something like that. And when I was 15, I was with my dad and he had a heart attack. And he he started to get the chest pain in the car, and it was just me and him um together. And long story short, he he survived that. And I'd always had in the back of my mind that that was going to be something that I could experience. He was only 41. Yeah. So I guess when I when I got into my 20s, like that seed had been planted. Yeah. And then as I was going through university and learning about science, I naturally became interested in you know, asking questions and then looking at the literature. And my dad's a professor of physiology, so I grew up at a dinner table with lots of these studies like printed everywhere and would highlight everything. I love it. I'd get into the car and I have to shift all the papers otherwise. And so I I had that that knowledge deficit and thought I'll I'll go back to university. In in Melbourne, there's a uh university deacon which has a really good master's program. Yeah. So I went back and and did that and didn't really know what would come after that. And uh here we are today.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

I will say though, it's uh very funny that you say that. Um give your background in history as a kid, because that was very similar to my background too. I I my dad's a orthopedic surgeon, my mom was an orthopedic nurse. Our dinner tables were very much about hips and knee and spine replacements and all of, you know, going through all of this crazy scientific info. And um, yeah, it's it's it's cool. It's very cool. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah. But and and mine was the exact opposite. And like no You can make it to where we are no matter where you're beginning from. There was no science duck at my dinner table, but uh but you know, here we are anyway. But but what was happening at my dinner table is that, you know, my dad was he and and still to this day, dad, I'm looking at you, um, needs better nutrition, like without a doubt. I'm just curious what what your experience with your dad was. Uh, did you feel like something was missing? And then that's what drew you in, or what what was the impetus?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Well, when he he had his heart attack and my brother and mom met us at the hospital, and then next day we had a meeting with the cardiologist. That at that point in time, the way the cardiologist explained it to us was that cardiovascular disease runs in families, and that as we become young men, we're gonna need to keep an eye on this. And I interpreted that in in a way that I think many people do, that this is genetic. Yes. And it's guaranteed. Yeah. And so then, as I was kind of speaking to earlier, it was when I started to get interested in science. That was empowering for me when I first discovered that hang on. Yeah, yes, cardiovascular disease is running in families, but a lot of that is because we adopt the same lifestyle. Yeah. It's not necessarily genetics.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Yeah. Um, hint hint, there's a mailbag question about this later on that we will be digging into. Stay tuned. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah. So that kind of flipped the script for me.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Yeah. And actually it's an informative moment. Uh you know, when when we spoke before the show, uh you told me a little bit about how you are doing a lot of this heart health testing on yourself right now. And I am and you kind of hinted at a couple things. So I think it's we we should talk through that a little bit more. So can you talk about what you're testing and what you're seeing in yourself?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah. So depends how far down this rabbit hole we want to go.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

As far as we want, Simon. No, no, no. Our our producer is like, no.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Uh let me let me say at a high level. Uh, you know, so I I changed my lifestyle at kind of late 20s, early uh late 20s. I changed the way that I was eating significantly. Um and before that, I, as I mentioned, I was healthy. But when I look back at my blood work from my 20s, my cholesterol was through the roof. And a doctor never flagged that.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

In your 20s?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah, never flagged it as hey, you should look at this.

SPEAKER_04 35:22

Start practicing differently.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah. And I think that's because I was presenting as a healthy young adult. And um, doctors are often, you know, used to seeing people come in that are not so healthy and have have a chronic disease or whatnot, and on multiple medications. So maybe there was just like less time spent with me. But as I got into my 30s, I became more interested in understanding what are the risk factors that are driving cardiovascular disease that I can do something about, right? That I can modify through my lifestyle so I don't follow in the footsteps of of my dad. And um, I've done a ton of episodes, probably like 15 hours conversation with lipidologists and um CT imaging experts, looking at those risk factors and high level, most people will have heard of these, but uh you know, LDL cholesterol is kind of the traditional you know risk factor that on your lipid panel that that cardiologists are looking at. And more recently it's become a little bit more specific to what's called APOB, which that's the rabbit hole that we'll avoid for now, so you get a better understanding of of risk. So I I've been monitoring that, and then like blood pressure, which I think is super underrated. A lot of people don't measure their blood pressure or not the easiest things to do at home. Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

You can easily buy a cuff and buy cuff for like $40 now.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah, you know, pretty high quality ones, and you can keep an eye on that. Um, and then you know, metabolic markers like triglycerides and HB1C and blood glucose and these sorts of things. So I've kept a good close eye on those. But one of the things that I was really interested in was looking inside my arteries. Given the family history, given the 30 years of previous high cholesterol, what's going on in my arteries?

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Specifically looking for plaque, I would assume. Looking for plaque. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Yeah. So we did that scan and saw a very small amount. And then, you know, the next question that comes up is okay, is that plaque that you've laid down in in your first 30 years of life, or is that more recent? How quickly are you laying it down? What's happening to it? And you can't answer that unless you do it again. Do it again.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

So I had a choice at that point in time. Do I want to start a lipid lowering medication? Like a PCS canine inhibitor or something like that. Uh and my my LDL and APOB sit at about 70 to 80 with diet, so pretty low. Okay. And I chose to, I wanted to wait, kind of academic purposes.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

I was gonna say, you've got to wait, I feel you have to wait at least one other task, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah. I think there are cardiologists out there who have certainly said to me, you should just start the lipid lowering therapies. Um and I understand their view on that. I'm I'm ca I kind of entered this from academic purposes because I I I knew that I would wait and I would likely start a lipid lowering therapy anyway. Right. And we can come to why I would do that. Um but anyway, I waited, I redid it. I have this episode coming out with the one of the um cardiologists that works at a company called Heartflow. I have no affiliation with them at all. That's just who I used because they have like an AI analysis that's validated to look more deeply at the plaque and quantify it.

unknown 38:48

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

And so they did the baseline and the follow-up. And by follow-up, I had significant regression.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

And this is an interesting thing, thing for people to understand is that you can get plaque regression. We know that. Yes. We know from we know from studies where you put people on medications, if you get their LDL and APOB, typically it's like you have to get it below 70 or 80. That's where you start to see some regression, but most regression occurs at like 50 and lower. And essentially that is shrinking of the of the plaque, which often coincides with a little bit more uh calcium. Right. So the total plaque comes down, they get a little bit more calcium, um, which is thought to stabilize that that plaque. So we know that that's definitely possible. And there are some other studies that have shown through lifestyle you can you can get plaque regression. So my results are not necessarily out of this world, um, sort of unsurprising, because of the particularly the nutrition and the way that I'm eating and where my APOB is at. And that's a result of, you know, prior to being, you know, in my 20s, my LDL was about 120. So I've gone from 120 down to 70s. I said between 70 and 80 by eating more plant protein, more fiber, and and less saturated fats.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

That's significant.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Right. And I mean, I love this. It's so nice that it's it's nothing crazy. You're saying less saturated fat, more fiber, more plant-based protein. I mean, we're not talking rocket science here. This is something pretty much everybody can do.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Well, you're and you're very physically active. You're we've we've alluded to that, which is incredible for heart health. Um, so probably it's not only nutritional, it's also lifestyle, too.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I probably do He's a big paddle player, everybody.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: probably do like five to ten hours of paddle a week at the moment.

unknown 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Which is a lot of like zoned three and four.

SPEAKER_04 40:46

He may or may not compete. Like actual competitions.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Amazing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, in a in a very amateur way. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

You don't have to be great for it to have great cardiovascular past. Right. My heart doesn't my heart doesn't know if the goal's in or out.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

You're superhuman, which is good for me because I would just run around in a circle. That's one of the sweetest analogies ever. Your heart, your heart doesn't know.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

It's just baiting away.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

But I I think that's that's my point, is that like it's we're we're not talking about rocket science here. Everybody can do this. But my my question is does everybody need to do the scans? So who do you actually think should be going and going, you know, leveling up beyond just maybe getting their LDL and APO B tested, who should go do these deeper plaque hunt?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Firstly, I'll say I'm not a cardiologist.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

So speak to your cardiologist. Smart.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Uh but political answer. Okay, what else?

SPEAKER_00 41:43

I think the scans, the scans have a lot of evidence for secondary prevention. So someone who's had an event, right? Definitely, I think most cardiologists understand the importance of looking at the soft plaque and the calcium and then being able to treat that person based on their overall risk profile, and then being able to repeat scan kind of in in the future to help manage that patient. I think primary prevention, it's there's still more science that needs to be done as to whether it aids clinical management. But thinking the way that I would approach this as an individual, yes, I do think it's helpful because if I did the scan and I saw zero plaque at all, right? No plaque, then I would probably think, well, my lifestyle's working, my 70 to 80 LDL cholesterol APRB, I'm happy with that. But I've seen some some plaque, there is some plaque there.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

And most of the time, what causes a cardiac event is the soft plaque, right? So the mild plaque that I had is soft plaque, most of the time it is that. And even though it's a very small amount, that could still lead to a cardiac event in the future. So if I'm now that I know that that's there and I'm and I'm looking at the evidence and I'm trying to be really objective in like what's best for me, getting my APO B down to below 50 is a goal. Where we see much more regression, like it makes a lot of sense. And so I have that extra motivation because I've seen the scan.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

To be even more plant focused or even more fiber, like what are you saying?

SPEAKER_00 43:22

I'm not sure I can really change my nutrition much more to get it down. And because I've come down from 120 to 70s, which already is a huge drop. Like most people with a lot of diet nutrition changes can probably get about a 30% reduction.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

And the portfolio diet sort of shows that. And and like the longevity diet, these are these are all kind of diets that are gonna lead to depending on someone's genes, because people respond differently, right? It's 20 to 30 percent reduction in LDL cholesterol. So for me, it's about looking at what what uh medicines are available that. Could help me lower it down and have good evidence for reducing risk of events.

SPEAKER_04 44:06

Yeah. Would you say, well, first of all, I I like that you said that because I also I when I work with patients, I work with a lot of patients with very severe gut-related issues that have led to things like autoimmune conditions or anxiety depression. And I often don't congratulate them ever, but it's it's very helpful to have something so significant to actually make be the motivator to make change. So I'm really glad that you have that to be no, I'm I want it even more power, even more beneficial for me. But I'm curious to know, did you do you have it? Seems like your cardiovascular health, because of your dad, because of your own experiences, has been like one of the main drivers through your work and experience. Do you have, have you noticed anything else or identified anything else in your own health or in learning about this that you feel like is just as important as your cardiovascular health in terms of your motivation to live and adopt different lifestyle habits?

SPEAKER_00 45:07

I think the thing that scares me most is losing my cognition.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yes. And it's related to cardiovascular disease. Sure is. And in many ways.

SPEAKER_04 45:18

You would you had mentioned when you were read uh reading off the labs that you regularly dry, you also mentioned glucose and HBA1C, all the things that are related to conditions like diabetes, for instance. But it is a term called cardiometabolic. There's a variety of conditions that impact not just your cardiovascular disease, your heart health, but also um the way that you utilize glucose. And we've we've heard that, you know, there is research to point to uh Alzheimer's dementia being considered type three diabetes, for instance, right? Related to glucose irregularities and um high HBO1C. So yeah, it it's all I mean, functional medicine is all connected. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

I will say one, because sometimes this can be a little bit of a morbid conversation. One thing that's worth celebrating is that on a per thousand people, the risk of developing dementia has dropped significantly.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Why?

SPEAKER_00 46:11

So there are more people living with dementia today, but that's because we have a bigger population. But the actual risk per thousand people over the last three decades has dropped significantly.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

And do they know?

SPEAKER_00 46:23

We're getting much better at treating risk factors. So the reduction in smoking, the reduction in consumption of alcohol in some populations, the treatment of cholesterol, education around exercise, although we can do much better. These things are having are having an impact. So there's actually is a success story that's hidden or lost when you just look at the absolute numbers of people living with dementia. Right. And yes, it is, you know, a lot of us have that person in our life or had that person in our life, and it's really scary. But overall, as a population, we are actually doing much better at preventing it.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Thanks for being optimist. Yes. And we appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Are we are we is there anything that really stands out as a really great way to support prevention, specifically for cognitive decline?

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Being social. Being social and active. Sweet.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

I can do that. Yes, we can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Finding sports, finding sports or ways to move your body with other people.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

Yeah. Yeah. Or I was just telling Renee that I've gotten very into mahjong, which is a teen board game. Very good for cognitive health. Yes. We're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 47:28

So we agree with that. The social connection, the relationships, the um sense of purpose, all of the things that are less hard and fast as it comes to data are equally as impactful over time, especially as you get older, I think, because it's harder to it's harder to find those communities as you age.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yeah. There's also a couple other more left-field or obscure ones that it would be worth mentioning.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

So the left field, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:55

So uh uh the the Lancet actually put out a paper last year or the year before on 14 modifiable risk factors that could uh cut incidence of dementia further by a further 50%.

unknown 48:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Which is a big number. Yeah. And and in this paper, actually, they weren't talking about GLP ones and other medications, which is a separate conversation. But they they highlighted two that stuck out to me, one and they were uncorrected uh vision loss and hearing loss.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

It's not to say that if you if you have if you have bad vision, which I do, or bad hearing, that you're going to get dementia, but it's that if you leave it uncorrected.

SPEAKER_04 48:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

And it and you're going decades without correcting that, then it seems to be increasing the risk of dementia.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

What when you say uncorrected, so I had I was legally blind minus 11.5. Not anymore. I got ICL surgery. She wants to be diagnosed. No, no, this is this is so exciting. But I'm just wondering, because it took me a long time to have the balls to do this surgery. Um she was blind as a bat. Yeah. And so I'm curious before that point, is that considered uncorrected, even though I was wearing contact lenses and wearing glasses, or is uncorrected like walking around around blind as a bat?

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Uncorrected is walking around, like basically taking in the world without that correct like visual stimuli.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah. Okay. Or or the auditory stimuli not being there. And the the mechanisms aren't fully understood, but it's probably from, you know, as you're it's like it's like a muscle. Yeah. Use it or lose it. And if you're not stimulating that part of the brain through through having that input, then it could be, you know, changing the structure of the brain over time.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

And and also just like the the neural pathways in your brain are just being activated less. And so it's like that neuroplasticity piece probably coming into all this, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:54

I mean, yeah. And and just thinking now, it could also be, you know, I wear contacts. Mine's minus five. So not quite a minus eleven. But if I wasn't wearing contacts, I think I I would isolate myself. Yeah. I would I would actually not be a social. You know, I wouldn't be able to make out people's faces. And if if I didn't have my hearing, I'm sure that's going to affect being social. So there's like you know, a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

Yeah, totally. So go get your vision tested, make sure that you are correcting wherever it and you're and you're hearing. Yeah. I never get my hearing.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

I think hearing is a is a big progress made of. Yeah, because you kind of just assume that it's it's all okay, but there's different frequencies, and so you can you can go and do an audiogram and kind of get a few. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

Do you want to go do an audiogram? That's too much too. And that's also decently easy to find and to access, right? Is it?

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Okay. Google.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

Google audiograms is what I'm in it.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

We so I we need to go to our we we get to go to our mailbag in a second, but do you have like the t other two from the 14 list of plants that I'm curious that you were like most surprised by?

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Oh, most surprised by? Those those were the two that stuck out as being surprised. The other ones I think most people will be familiar with. Right. Yeah. So like cholesterol, for example. Right. Right. And managing blood glucose or things metabolic health.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Which thing, thank goodness, that was that was a that's become that's another method of our of the trends that we talk about here on the show that we're I'm glad that people are paying more attention to that. So it's a really a huge, meaningful shift to focus on your glucose levels. Right. CGMs for the win.

SPEAKER_03 51:39

I have, I guess I'll have uh my final question that I want to ask Simon, which is you know, you you have a huge listener base. Your podcast is super fun to listen to, you get incredible guests on. What have you, you know, you read this Lancet, you found this like surprising thing. In your podcast, what has been the most surprising thing that you feel like you've heard in the last, I'm gonna narrow it to like the last few months. Like something that you were like, whoa, the world needs to know this so that our podcast listeners can go. So we can your podcast episode.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

I've had some fun episodes recently. Uh I I I gotta say unregulated peptides.

SPEAKER_04 52:20

That's a hot button topic.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

I'm a little worried. I'm a little worried just by the enthusiasm around injecting experimental compounds.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Uh A, when we're not 100% sure on on the active, on kind of where it's affecting, how it's influencing physiology throughout the body and what the long-term effects are. And then B, because a lot of the things that are being injected are not coming from somewhere where there's a lot of rigorous kind of testing of those peptides. So I would say uh lack of regulation and just and despite that lack of regulation, this huge amount of enthusiasm is concerning.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

People love a quick fix. I don't even know if it's a quick fix.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

Like the it is, it's I think the peptide world is super fascinating. It's fascinating. And that to me, it's like it's exciting. And I think it's that excitement of like, ooh, look at all these things that maybe we could do with this, and just like jumping the gun. It's like, it's just you're so excited that you're just you're going in without having all of the rigor that it should have. I'm curious, though, like with the GLP ones that are out there now, and even, you know, some of the triple acting, whatever ones that are slowly coming out, those ones have more rigorous testing in certain populations. How do you feel about those in those populations? But then, second question is how do you feel about those in healthy populations where we have less data, but we have the data on unhealthy.

SPEAKER_04 53:57

Which is quite literally the scenario we find ourselves in. Yeah. Okay. Currently.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Good questions. So I think the first thing to canvas this is that peptides is an umbrella term. Yeah. Not all peptides are equal. Right. Some peptides have gone through phase three clinical trials. Yeah. Which means that they've jumped through all these hoops to show that they have some degree of effectiveness and that we understand the safety profile. Doesn't mean they don't have any adverse effects. Right. It just means that we understand it. And when you understand the effect size on something like weight, or if it was some other outcome, like a health outcome, and you understand the safety profile from a well-powered study, you can make an informed decision with your doctor.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

Yes. That's what science, that's what science ultimately is, is that you have enough information to make a decision for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Without that, you're flying blind. Yeah. So I actually I I don't have a problem with someone who is taking an unregulated peptide personally. I just want them to know you're taking that risk. If they sit here and say, I accept that risk, I I mean, the first thing I would say is it's hard for you to accept the risk because you can't quantify it. Right. You're accepting that you can't quantify the risk.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What if we told you you're gonna go blind in 20 years? Now are you still gonna want to do this? You don't know. You don't know. There's a lot of just don't know.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Yeah, and there is off we know that drugs have off-target effects.

SPEAKER_03 55:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Right. And I think there's this idea that peptides aren't drugs. They they're drugs. These are these are medicines, right? And just because your body produces it doesn't mean it's not a medicine, right? Testosterone replacement therapy is a medicine. Yes. Your body makes testosterone. So we we need to kind of clarify that. I think GLP1s for the right person appear to be hugely beneficial. Right. We have we have a uh a massive problem in this country, in America and Australia, with obesity and metabolic conditions.

SPEAKER_04 55:51

It can be it can be life-saving.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

It can be life-saving. And and I think what frustrates me is that you know, sometimes online you'll see someone who d has lost a lot of weight through diet, will say, these drugs are not needed. I lost weight just through diet. Everyone can do it. And I think that's overlooking what the drivers of obesity are. Yes. There are a whole lot of socioeconomic drivers that make it an uneven playing field. There, you know, food noise right now is we're still working on instruments to quantify it, but it seems like food noise is not the same between people. No. So it's not a level playing field. Just because I lost X kilograms on X diet doesn't mean the next person can and will.

SPEAKER_04 56:35

And also, can we just get rid of the fact that this is all willpower versus not willpower? I think that conversation is just so tired. Like, please, we we know enough now that it is. And actually think that not to interrupt you, but I do think that the GLP1, the advent of the GLP1 craze has been meaningful in that it has opened up people's concept of, oh, this is physiological. There are physiological elements to this being an issue. It's not just, oh, you can't help yourself because you're eating XYZ foods.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 57:05

So anyway, sorry. I had a moment of birth.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Which we live in an environment that's very tempting. Yeah. And it's it's it there's a a mismatch between the environment and our genes. And and I don't think it's that hard to appreciate that some people are more vulnerable to the environment than others.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Which is why some people can stay thin in this environment, sure. But others can't because they're more vulnerable for whatever reason, is it their uh their socioeconomic factors or is it gene genetics, whatever. Um so I think given the downstream effects that being obese has, and particularly carrying excess fat around the organs and inside the organs from a metabolic point of view, I think with that in mind, this this stands to be hugely beneficial for the individual um and for for the chronic disease burden. And I think we'll see that play out. And and you know, uh the other false equivalence or kind of false dichotomy I see people say as well, you know, just compare GLP ones to a diet, but you have to appreciate these people have tried the diet and it hasn't worked. So what you have to do is take the individual and compare them, compare the GLP one and losing 25-30% of body weight to being obese for the next three decades. That's the comparison. And then you're looking at what are the health outcome differences between those two people? Who's mental health better, who has lower risk of chronic disease. And that's so that's the the kind of calculation that we're we're trying to make. And we have the phase three clinical trials to help us understand that. Uh and we'll get much more data. Some of these drugs have been used for over a decade because they were first used for people with type 2 diabetes. They've been around a while. So you we we have some long-term data showing like reduction or reduced risk of dementia, for example, where these are associations. Um, but we'll have more and more data the longer uh the longer we have because these these drugs are being used much more now. Um in terms of people using GLP ones that don't meet the criteria of those studies, I think it's a gap in the in the evidence right now.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

And so I don't think we have a concrete kind of answer as to whether it yeah, yet, you know, uh is there microdosing protocols or certain GLP ones for the person who's not obese or significantly overweight and doesn't have metabolic disease now? Is there a kind of protocols that can help that person over the next 20 years not gain weight and develop metabolic disease? That's an interesting question.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

Yeah. It's a big question. It is a very big question. Renee's got pulling out all the big stuffs in the questions. Yeah, well, you know, I'm curious. Yeah, but yeah, this is that's fascinating. It's super and it I we started the conversation, but the this whole industry every day is something new and exciting. And um, I do love we love to nerd out on the data, but there is still so much left to gather. So should we answer some questions from the listeners? Yeah, so so just so you know, we do we collect questions from our listeners uh so that we can answer a few of them live. And you're this is for all of us, which is a combo.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Great.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

Yes. Okay, okay. You're gonna do that. I got it. I got it. I got it. You got it. Okay, what is mailbag? Welcome everybody. Um and if you want to send your questions in to have us answer potentially live, you can DM us at ProLon at our Instagram account. Okay, first mailbag of the day. What's the right amount of sauna for women? I keep seeing protocols designed for men. Does the dose change? Hmm. Anybody have a burning desire to answer that? Sure. Yeah. Unless you are ready to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

No, this one's like outside of my lane. I'm gonna leave this to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

Okay, okay. Okay. Renee, it's easy. So so I I I actually am a big sauna lover. So this is this is very much my wheelhouse just personally from doing this and then getting it sitting in very, very hot saunas, wondering, am I doing too much? Like at uh because I'll go to a hundred degrees.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:14

I was gonna say the temperature, the free, it's it's not just frequency, it's also temperature exposure, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

It's so it's and also the type of sauna. What type of sauna, right? So is it finish? That's the type of saunas that I personally prefer. But there's a lot of really great research also in some of the infrared saunas. But um, you know, what what I have seen in the literature to date, for women specifically, it's really interesting. There are actually now some studies that have been done just in women in sauna usage. And Hallelujah. Yeah, I mean, way less than men still, always a problem, but uh there is some. And they're the the safety data is showing about the same, that 80 degree to 100 degree range in the more finished heated saunas. Um, typically going for about 10 minutes to 15 minutes at a time is showing good. 120 bad do not go that high. What they're also seeing is that you can do like this 80-90, and you don't see any uh dramatically better benefits when you hit that 100. So you don't actually need to go so high.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:25

It's called uh what do we call that? The um reduce or uh diminishing returns. Diminishing returns after that point.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

Um what's interesting in some of the female data that they're seeing is that they are showing that women are actually better able to manage changes in temperature. So sauna may actually, this might be one of the things that women do and and could get even more benefit than men. This is very, very like very early. And I I'm not gonna go so far as to say that that is certainly the case. But just so far, because we're better able to manage our temperature than men, we're able to sweat sometimes better and more efficiently than than men, the sauna may be a better party.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

Was that in pre-menopausal or post-menopausal, or just every whole woman?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:18

So that specific study was done in pre-menopausal studies. Um, specifically also looking, so this is the the data uh on also the the time of month is not in human, so this is important. So what they're seeing in women, of course, so estrogen actually allows you to drop your body temp. Progesterone allows you to increase your body temp. And I mean, marginally so, but there is some suggestion, this not tested in humans, so I'm not gonna go so far as to say this that potentially the luteal phase would not be the time to sauna because you're higher progesterone. Progesterone, sure. But just it's just like super interesting that this is now finally starting to, we're we're starting to get into it. It's seeming to be a uh, you know, the data that has been done in men for sauna usage is incredible. The the opportunity that it has for neurodegenerative disease for cardiovascular health is so strong. Um, so I mean, I'm I'm certainly going to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

What does your weekly sauna protocol look like?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:27

So usually I go, so I pair it with my workout. So I'm kind of like a ritual person, you know? I do my workout and then I hit the sauna. I try and do it about five days a week. I travel a lot, and now saunas are almost everywhere. They're in so many of uh hotel gyms, and if not, there's they're now all over the place. So I I'm I hunt them down before I go somewhere. Uh, because it's so it's just good for your mental heels. It's good for your mental health. It is that there's studies on uh depression, on mental and and cognitive health. I mean, it's I'm I'm a huge fan.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:02

Well, your skin is the biggest, most porous organ rehab, right? So it's great for detox for in multiple ways.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:08

I use it for you know my gut health protocols too, but it also improves uh blood pressure, so maybe there's something that could be helpful there.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:16

Anyways, I'm we could talk about born and raised in pump space.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

There's also some uh evidence that a warm bath can produce some of the benefits.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yes. Okay, so here so I was looking into this. So we still we can go. So so I was looking into this. The warm bath, yes, it has so they're looking at about like that 40 degrees Celsius, because like obviously you don't want to boil yourself, right? So you but you can actually increase your body temperature to higher in a 40 degree bath than in like a 90 degree sauna. But you have to be in the hot bath for 45 minutes. The sauna you do for 10 to 15 minutes three times is kind of the suggestion. And ideally flipping between hot and cold. So we're saying that. So we're Saying that, you could get some really incredible, like heat shock protein type response from a hot bath for 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:08

This is a very long answer to this mailing, and I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

Thank you to whoever sent this question.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

Moving right along. This is uh this is one I'm I I'd be curious to know your thoughts on this one. Is fruit bad for me?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

No. Yeah, I can almost categorically say no. Say no. How much might depend on the on the person, but uh you know, fruit compared to pretty much most foods that people are eating is like is is better. And most people are not eating enough fruit. You're getting uh you're getting lots of fiber, you get resistant starch, a lot of micronutrients, you get water, which is great for satiety and hydration. So yeah. Big fan of fruit. Yeah, even frozen fruit.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:50

Yeah. Almost better because it's frozen at the peak of ripeness. You get all of those nutrients at the at pinnacle ripeness.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

You know why I really like this question though? Because it, you know, to us it's probably like, yeah, fruit is amazing. But I do think that there's been a lot of fear around fruit. And I it that that like it it hurts my heart.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:12

It does hurt my heart as well. I think part of it is because there's so much talk about things like high fructose corn syrup, which is a derivative of fruit, right? Fructose is the sweetest of all of the between sucrose, uh uh sucrose glucose and and fructose fructose is the sweetest. So it produces a very sweet flavor, and it's high fructose corn syrup, as we know, which is in like sodas and processed foods, is not good for you. But interesting little tidbit in case you guys are interested. Um, there is in in very deep uh gut health, functional gut health worlds, combining sucrose and fructose can cause an inflammatory effect in some people.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:52

Some people. Some people including me. This girl. Me.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:56

So I've actually experienced I'm speaking from experience, but I'm I'm actually speaking from dealing with people who have chronic gut inflammation as well, where they're uh the combinations of things can is an interesting discussion about what works, what doesn't work. Um so for me, because I am not going to be giving up fruit fruit, has enormous benefits for most people. I just give up sucrose.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:18

And I so the combination isn't isn't there. But that's how important fruit is, is that you are Oh, I would never stop eating fruit.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

Right. Yeah. And so I think the the fear mongering around fruit, I think, is coming from the fear around high fructose corn syrup, which is warranted, right? You're if you have excess amount of that, then we know your liver is just gonna be taking a hit, especially if you're doing it all of the time. But fruit, even though it has fructose in it, that fructose, you're one, not gonna get enough of it in the way that you're consuming fruit, unless you're drinking a bunch of fruit juice to actually have that same impact. A different conversation, right. And so it's like they're two different conversations. So anybody tells you not to eat fruit.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

I think the other thing that kind of gets people to to question fruit and whether they should consume it is that they go and get their blood work and their blood sugar's high. And then the assumption is okay, I should not eat foods that contain sugar because I have high blood sugar.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

And there this is this is like a I understand this is like a confusing thing to navigate as an individual. If you say you have prediabetes and like and you put a CGM on, and you notice that eating some fruit, your blood sugar goes up much more than eating bacon. Which is this is what happens online, you see. And then naturally that person, you know, they you can you can understand how they may think, wow, my blood glucose is much flatter with bacon than it was with the fruit. My body's not suited to the fruit.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:01

And do we need I need to dive into this for one second because it's a really problem. We have lots to say. Go ahead, continue.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

Do you want to jump in now and then we can throw it back and forth? Please, go ahead, go. I like that tidbit before.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:13

I just I you're you it's not always about the glucose spike so much as how well you recover from it, too, right? Like there's you need to educate yourself. We're we're supposed to have some glucose spikes in and throughout the day, but we don't want to keep them chronically elevated. And we also want to understand how what is your recovery from that glucose, which is a thing called insulin that comes in and then picks up the glucose. And if you're insulin resistant, it's not going to happen as quickly.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

So anyway, could go further. I I think there is a more education that needs to be out there with how to use a CGM and what you're looking for, because if you're just searching for flatter is better and any glucose going up and down, then you might end up making some food swaps that are not great for your health. The other thing is I think when people have a lot of fat buildup in their liver and in their pancreas, and maybe they have prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, their ability to tolerate carbohydrates does go down. And it's it's not that the foods containing carbohydrates are a problem. We know that fruit, for example, is associated with lower risk of type 2 diabetes. But once you have someone with type 2 diabetes and you give them a lot of fruit, you might actually see an increase elevation in blood glucose, and it might actually not come down that quick. And and so the question is, how can you restore some insulin sensitivity in that person so they can handle more fruit, which we know is a food group that associates with better long-term health. And at least in the research that I've seen, like and and this is why you'll see people kind of arguing online about what diet's best for type 2 diabetes, and you've got the person who did low fat, the person that did low carb or whatever, who says that they put their type 2 diabetes into remission. The commonality is that they found a way to eat that kept them full on less calories, and they they lost weight enough weight to get enough fat out of the liver and pancreas.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:18

Which is called vi visceral fatal fat is the fat that's around your central organs, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

And Roy Taylor, who's a uh professor in the UK, he would he would he's kind of defined this as your personal fat threshold, which is why you can have two people in front of you who have the same body fatness, but one of them develops type 2 diabetes and the other doesn't. And and his research shows that this comes back to how what your capacity is to store fat under the skin subcutaneously. Some people have more capacity.

unknown 1:12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

So they can they're they're protected at a certain body fatness. Whereas the same person next to them who has less capacity to store fat subcutaneously, that same body fatness, they're storing more fat centrally. And it's the fat in the liver and the pancreas which is leading to it, causing that, particularly in the liver, the insulin resistance and resulting in the elevations in HBO1C and fasting blood glucose. So the answer is it's not that this person who's insulin resistant, that fruit is bad for them. It's that in your current state of physiology, you're not tolerating carbohydrates very well. Right. And how can we restore that? And this is where that coming back to personal fat threshold, it's it's losing weight in whatever way works for you, whichever dietary pattern or if it's GLB1 plus a dietary pattern, to get you below your personal fat threshold and you start to restore insulin sensitivity. Now that you will know this, that doesn't work exactly the same for everyone, particularly if someone's had type 2 diabetes for 10 years. The pancreas can be very damaged and not producing much insulin at all. So the earlier you get onto that, the better in the piece.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:02

Or use a solution that helps with regeneration of cellular health, which we thought that would be.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:13

Totally, which is one of the reasons I love prolon. And seriously, it's I I I will myself do it every quarter going forward based on the evidence that that I've seen. But the the reduction in visceral fat, the restoration of the the function of the pancreas is doing exactly what we're talking about. Yeah. It's it's shifting someone's metabolic health from a a point where they're they're they don't have metabolic flexibility. Right? You can't tolerate carbohydrates. And we you don't want to be in that state because a lot of these carbohydrate-containing foods are improving health outcomes. So you want to find a way to get and that doing the the five-day fasting mimicking diet allows you to restore that the insulin sensitivity.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:00

And then you can you can actually introduce these foods to some degree, the fruits, you know, foods that we actually enjoy as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:06

And yeah, it's nature's nature's gift. Yeah. But I think it it's very important to recognize, I think the one thing that I'm hearing loud and clear is you will go through stages, potentially through your life where you're in an acute state of of health, where you need a specific intervention, specific types of of help, whether that that be nutritionally, through medication, through diet and lifestyle. Um, but eventually it's not to be so staunch that that is how your body is. It is what how your body is responding right now so that you can then change. I think there's a real, I get the one of the hills I want to die on or that I will die on is being understanding that your body changes and your needs change, and you need to be responsive to that. And you need to be flexible in I we have so many conversations with people who are like, you know, this is just what works for me. And I'm like, maybe it did once and maybe it might again, but you have to be flexible in changing, in changing what your body needs. And sometimes your body needs an additional intervention to support you before you can get back to the things that may be incredible for you long term out of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

So yeah, the body, the body adapts, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:18

And it's it's wired to adapt.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:22

It's wired to adapt. And we kind of we understand that when we think about things like going to the gym, right? You're if you're not someone that goes to the gym lifting weights, you're not gonna start tomorrow with a personal trainer and they're not gonna take you through the most intense two-hour workout with weights that are gonna cause you to be injured. You're gonna develop a plan and go slowly and kind of introduce things over time. And I think, like in this conversation uh with fruit and someone who has poor metabolic health, uh, you know, just because you can't tolerate a lot of those foods right now doesn't mean that with the right strategy, you can't introduce those foods. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

Right. It just might take you a little bit longer. You might need to employ strategies like a five-day fasting mimicking diet to be able to get there incrementally.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:10

Yeah. Yeah. I always think about you talking about people like on carnivore diets and how they say, like, I can't have vegetables now because veggies just don't work. It's tummy. Yeah. And it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:20

People with ulcer colitis, for instance, last thing I'll say is very similar that they would benefit str uh from a very high fiber diet eventually. But if you are in a an acute flare-up, you better avoid every piece of fiber in your diet. You are going bland. That's a similar similar concept. I mean, it's uh you your interventions will change as your body is responding and adapting to your environment. So great conversation. Should we do do we have time for one more? Um okay. Do we like any of these last ones the best? Let you choose. I let you choose.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:53

Yes. I I think we're gonna just do the next one on the list, which is how much of our longevity is actually based on genes versus everything because we kind of touched on a little bit. Um but I I actually was curious about this and I was looking into it because I was like, is there really like a number that is generally accepted? And there is, turns out, which is about like 25 to 30 percent of our longevity and our health is a pr is is based off of genes. And they've done this from twin studies to looking at at twins that are fraternal or identical and seeing how much of this is actually based on genetics because the identical twins have identical genetics. They hypothetically could die on the very exact same day. And if they don't, then they can see kind of how much difference there is. And so using primarily that information, among some other, that's approximately what they're thinking it is, which I thought was interesting. Yeah. Then I don't know if you saw the Ancestry.com work that came out. They were looking at at because they have all of this DNA and genetic information, and they actually thought that it was even less associated, closer to 19% genetics. And I don't know all of the logistics on how they ran that study because it's Ancestry.com, sorry, but I don't, I don't know how how strong their their scientific rigor was on this study. But it's interesting. And I think, you know, in what we were talking about earlier, to me, it is so awesome to know that our genetics are not determining everything about our health. And that the vast majority of our health is entirely in our hands.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:34

Yeah, we have we have more say. And then if you also add in the fact that even if you have a genetic predisposition, modern medicine's getting better and better at modulating. You can modulate some of those things.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:47

Yeah. Yeah. Can turn it turn your genes on or off. And I I do think that's such a wonderful plug to figure out what works best, like what you're doing with your heart health, you know, work. I mean, some of that could have been your gene predisposition, right? That you can can't potentially get lower than your 70, 70 um marker.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:06

So I want to do a whole episode on epigenetics and methylation and all of the fun stuff in that world. Yeah. But um one other thing that I wanted to note when I was looking into this that I thought was really interesting is that they're saying that though those numbers, those, those like light on genetics is for longevity up to about like 90, 95 years old. Once you start seeing people that are in the 95 to 100 plus range, they are seeing some higher genetic uh, you know, variability genes that these people have that others don't have that just make them more resistant. So things like FOXO and you know, APO or um oh my gosh. Uh APO E4. Apo E4. Anything else to add?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:54

I think that was pretty comprehensive. I mean, I'll be happy if I live to 95.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:58

Yeah, in a in a healthy body, hiking and paddling and you know, doing all the fun things.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:03

What do you envision yourself doing at 95? Like, where do you do you think you're gonna be rocking the paddle court still? I hope so, for your sake.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

Just laughing with people. I don't know, I don't know exactly what we'll be doing. I'd love to be still be playing pedell, but just just laughing with with people and sharing experiences with my friends and family.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:25

Yeah.

unknown 1:21:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:28

Thank you so much for being on our show, Simon. It's like such a such an honor and pleasure as as two nutrition geeks having you on our show has been such fun. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:38

I enjoyed it. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:50

Thanks for listening to Almost Forever. If you love the show, hit subscribe on YouTube at Prolon FMD or wherever you're listening and share it with someone you love. New episodes every other Wednesday drop on YouTube or wherever you listen. This is not intended as medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or a substitute for professional healthcare services. Please talk to a qualified healthcare professional before making changes to your diet, exercise, or supplement routine. Views expressed by our guests are their own.