Seán Kinane on Fitness Myths, VO₂ Max & Why Most People Are Training Wrong

This week on Shake the Ground, Nathalie is joined by Seán Kinane, founder of Health Matters, where he has spent years helping everyone from elite athletes to everyday people better understand their bodies.

In this episode, Seán breaks down the science behind health and fitness in a way that actually makes sense. From why VO₂ max has become one of the biggest predictors of long-term health, to whether Zone 2 training deserves all the hype, he challenges many of the fitness trends and misconceptions we see online every day. 

Together, they explore why getting fitter isn’t just about looking better, the biggest mistakes people make with their training, how to know if you’re actually improving, and why the numbers on your watch don’t always tell the full story. 

Whether you’re a runner chasing a PB, someone trying to improve your health, or simply curious about what your body is capable of, this conversation is packed with practical advice that could change the way you train & think about fitness. 

Follow Seán here: 
https://www.instagram.com/thevo2fella

Follow Nathalie here: 
https://www.instagram.com/nathalielennon_

Subscribe to our YouTube here: 
https://www.youtube.com/@shakethegroundpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Welcome back to Stake the Grand. If you're new here, this podcast is all about conversations that leave you seeing life a little differently. The ones that challenge your beliefs, make you question something, instill hope or motivation, and give you the courage to make a change, to better your life in some way. Now, today's guest definitely is someone who did that for me when it comes to my journey with running. And I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation. I'm super excited about it. And now, if you're thinking I'm not a runner, this episode isn't for me. Stick with us because yes, we're going to talk about running, VO2 Max, and fitness. But this conversation is really about understanding your body, why cardiovascular training is important, why you might always feel exhausted, whether we're exercising in the smartest way, how to fuel ourselves properly, and whether we're actually chasing health or just trends. So whether you've never laced up a pair of runners or you've got a marathon in the diary, I think you will get something from this one. Sean Cannan. Sean Cannan, am I pronouncing that term? Sean Cannan is the founder of Health Matters, a scientifically driven company established in 2011, specializing in fitness testing, performance enhancing, and overall health-related programs. He helps everyone from complete beginners to elite athletes better understand their bodies through VO2 max testing, metabolic testing, and some other assessments. But beyond the numbers, he's someone who's not afraid to challenge a lot of what we think we know about health, fitness, and running. So I cannot wait to ask him a gazillion questions that I have prepared here. Before my marathons last year, so you may or may not know, I ran Chicago Marathon. And then stupidly a week after I ran Amsterdam Marathon, and that was my ignorance to the beast that is 42.2 kilometres. But before that, I did a VO2 max test and metabolic test with Sean. Now, if you're wondering what the hell these are or what I'm talking about, well, we're gonna dive into all of that now. But let me tell you, it drastically changed how I trained and fuelled. Like seriously, that would actually be an understatement to say how much it changed my training approach and my fuelling approach. So we are gonna dive into it all today. Please welcome Sean Cannan, aka the VO2 Max Fella, to Shake the Ground.

SPEAKER_06 2:35

Thank you. How are you doing? What an intro. I have a lot to live up to.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Quite a long one, but I wanted to give the background there, you know. Um so, Sean, first of all, maybe tell us a little bit about Health Matters, how it started, why you got into it.

SPEAKER_06 2:49

It started so the VO2 fella is something that's only come in recently, but uh I was searching for you on Instagram recently.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

I was like, I can't find Health Matters.

SPEAKER_06 2:57

Yeah, so the VO2 fella, people call me the VO2 fella. So um for years I've been known as the VO2 fella. I ran the Dublin Marathon two years ago and I had the name on my back, the VO2 fella. So when we were trying to slightly change my brand over the last couple of weeks, we said we better go with a more personal approach. So the VO2 fella was created. But Health Matters started back in realistically 2009 when I was in Australia.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Well before 2011.

SPEAKER_06 3:21

Yeah, yeah, so Ireland's 2011. So 6th of April 2011 was our first day of business.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

6th of April. That's my sister's birthday. What did you do?

SPEAKER_06 3:28

6th of April 2011. But I was a lift engineer, so I was working in Ireland, an electrician and a lift engineer, and I was travelling the world, and I didn't want to work in a lift shaft, so I became a personal trainer in Ireland before I left. I went to Australia, travelled through South America, different aspects of travel, and settled in Perth, got a job in a gym, and started to work in a gym as a PT. And the one of the people in the gym had this equipment and he was analysing metabolic function or metabolisms, and then the other side of it was doing a bit of VO2 testing. I started to work, put clients through him, then I started to work directly with him, and I was thinking, okay, this is something that's really kind of caught me. I'm really interested. You can really make such an impact in people's lives. I did a lot of study over there, and then I left and went travelling through South Asia and then came back to Ireland 2010, December, just before Christmas. Yeah. And I sat down with my dad and my uncle in January 2011, and I'd seen loads of different business ideas throughout the world, because we'd travelled for about two and a half years, and we ran with this idea. And 15 plus years later, here I am, 25,000 tests later, the most active tester in the world. Oh my god. Yeah, I've seen it all, done it all, and I love it every day.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

I think it's absolutely incredible how much your business has has, I suppose, built up and taken off, but more than that affected so many lives in a positive way over the last few years. And I'm sure you couldn't even imagine how much running was going to take off between when you started and now because it is like the trendiest form of movement going right now.

SPEAKER_06 4:59

Yeah, it is. It's it's amazing what it's doing, and it's amazing the impact we get to make down to the point where we duck like there's stories I can tell you about recently enough. We've stopped a couple of tests which have led to people getting heart aberrus, and they the doctor said like he saved your life, like unquestionable. We can come far back onto that.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

I definitely want to go into that, but let's let's just go back a few steps because I couldn't even explain what what these things are. So for people who are listening, going, what in the name of God is a VO2 max test? And then secondary to that, a metabolic test, or like what is metabolic functioning? Can you break those terms down in like like without the jargon? So we really understand.

SPEAKER_06 5:37

I'll try. So VO2 stands for volume of oxygen. Okay. It's measuring how much oxygen you consume per kilogram of body mass, which is averaged over one minute. That's the basics of that. But what does it mean? Yeah, it's the most important, or it is your gold standard fitness measurement worldwide. So it's comparable, it's repeatable, it's measurable. So you test in Ireland, France, Germany, Australia, you're comparable against it all. So you're graded in it.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

And basically it's a pretty big statement. The gold standard worldwide for testing your fitness. Yeah. VO2 Max. Would you say and your longevity, or did I dream that?

SPEAKER_06 6:09

So this is where you look at it from two perspectives. So VO2 Max would have been traditionally available to athletes, elite athletes, universities, hospitals, very time-consuming, very expensive. But now the same accurate analysis has been brought to people in Ireland by me for 15 years and many others that are now starting to do it. So definitely without question, it would have been as a soul fitness measurement. Now there's been a shift. I won't say athletes, but older people coming in just to get a test done because now they're saying is the single stronger dictator or indicator of life longevity. So that's incredible. I did a reel yesterday on this. We were testing all weekend in Cork, and I was so surprised. We had a couple of people in looking to break sub three era marathon, and we'd a couple of people in their 70s that train in the gym that they're in that just wanted to get a baseline measurement.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

I'd love to get my parents in to do this. And obviously, you must see. Well, you were telling me just before we start recording that they've actually brought in like different numbers for people in their 70s and 80s now that do the tests.

SPEAKER_06 7:12

Yeah, so for our scales, they always stopped at 60s. Okay. So the age 60 plus. Yeah. Now there's categories for 70 plus and 80 plus.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

So prior to that, what would you have done if you had someone coming in who was 73? It was just 60 plus. So it was just in 60 plus.

SPEAKER_06 7:24

So the age group or the category that a 72-year-old come into would be 72. Sorry, 60 plus. But what this is, so this is a number.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

So Yeah, I'm just going to say let's break down these. What do we mean by categories?

SPEAKER_06 7:34

So there's categories that go from very low, low, poor, good, excellent, superior.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:42

Okay? Yeah. So they're the categories that you fall into. Now, if you come in and score very low and you get your score to low, you add five years onto your life.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Stop it.

SPEAKER_06 7:51

So if you look at VO2, it's a complete measurement of all physiological performance markers. So basically VO2 is oxygen utilization, but then it's a measurement on the heart pumping that blood, dioxinated blood to the working muscles. So we look at your heart as well. So if we know someone has a good VO2 max, there's a high possibility they train regularly.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:10

There's a high possibility their weight is in range. There's a high possibility they have a really good heart. Okay. There's a high possibility they have a really good set of lungs. So if we look at all the things that can kill us, a lot of the things or mortality links are going to be cardiovascular. Yeah. So if we know that if we can decrease risk all-cause mortality by exercising, it's going to correlate with having a higher VO2. So we can link, and all the studies show the higher the VO2, the lower risk of all cause mortality. The lower the VO2.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

So we should all be chasing.

SPEAKER_06 8:42

You should all be chasing indirectly. We can measure it by measuring your VO2.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

So this is where I get a bit. Yeah. This is where I get a bit frustrated with like the medical world. So I'm like, if someone goes into the doctors and they're unwell, okay, and now obviously there's so many other other kind of aspects to health where you could be affected. But why doesn't a doctor say, Let's go get your VO2 max tested and see if we can improve that? Because that could technically add five, ten years onto your life.

SPEAKER_06 9:12

It is. Now the scales when you go from very low to low, that's five years. It doesn't keep going in scales for five years. But I remember October 24, the guy came in to me, he was 115 kilos. He just welcomed his first child. He did no exercise. He came in and he scored very low. So he scored whatever it was, a sub-20 VO2 max for him, his category was very low, and he said to me he wanted to change his life. And to the year, to the day, the 25th revolver, 25, he came back to me, and I remember because it was my brother's birthday, and he scored superiorly. Now he'd done four tests with me over the year, and each time he moved his category.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Sorry, in one year?

SPEAKER_06 9:45

In one year. Now he's come from very, very low though. He had done no exercise. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Now he dropped astronomical amounts of body weight.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 9:54

So he came in at 115 kilos. I think his last test was tw maybe 90 kilos.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

And do you mind me asking, was this recently?

SPEAKER_06 10:01

Uh 24, October 24.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

So you can absolutely say no comment or past this question. I can't help but think when I hear of dramatic weight loss in a year, was that just nutrition? Oh, and exercise.

SPEAKER_06 10:15

No, no, because we worked, he worked with us. I love hearing that. When we say it was drastic weight loss, it's probably four stone over a year. Yeah. He had a very poor lifestyle, his food was very, very poor. And he said to me he just wanted to be there for his child, his daughter. And he has probably added 15 years onto his life.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:33

By just creating now, weight loss has obviously helped.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Of course.

SPEAKER_06 10:36

But he's created a continuous exercise regime where he will now train forever. And if your heart is healthy and if your heart functions, you have a very good chance of surviving for very long periods of time.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

I love that, Sean. I think when it comes to our health and longevity and wanting to live longer for our children or whatever it may be, no one really brings up the topic of heart health. It's always just how to look a certain way, and people don't really care about how they get there. And I think we spoke about this when I was in doing a test with you before. Like I get so frustrated by the fitness industry industry because people chase aesthetics and not the science of what's really going to make them healthier and live longer. All they chase is what's going to make them look better when it could be doing more damage than good to their muscle mass sometimes or their bone mass. Saying that from someone who's who's been there and probably gone about a lifestyle change the wrong way to begin with, when I was losing bone density because I wasn't fueling enough for the exercise I was doing. So I love that in your work from the get-go, as a personal trainer that moved into this, you've always been about health from the inside out.

SPEAKER_06 11:43

Yeah, and it's like we work in this three-story gym in West Park Fitness. Yes, I'm there. The lads that look in incredible shape get the lift up one flight of stairs. It's funny, isn't it? It's sad, it's scary, it's wrong, it's it blows my mind. And slowly but surely they come around to the fact that like anyone that will want to talk to me about any aspect of it, I'd be like, look, let's just get some steps. If we're looking at longevity, so we look at in when we do VO2 testing, we can identify what's called a threshold. The threshold is where we go from an efficient energy system to an inefficient energy system. And if anybody can do 90 minutes a week below an aerobic threshold, or if anyone can do 90 minutes a week aerobic, it means that basically you can talk when you're doing that exercise. It's been proven to decrease risk all-cause mortality by about 18%. So every single thing in the world that could kill you is going to reduce by about 18% by training for 90 minutes a week at low intensity. This is the reel I done the other day. This is what I was speaking about. We all put walls up to say I don't have time, I need to look after the kids, I need to look after my parents, I need to look after that. But if you as the individual isn't able to function to the best of your ability because you're fatigued, because you're sick, because you have an illness, you're not going to be there for them when they need you most. So prioritising 90 minutes a week, and that's all we're asking. Minimum. The minimum session is 30 minutes. So 330s, 245s, a 16 to 30, at low intensity, that's going to improve your heart health.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

So we're talking maybe, depending on the person's fitness levels, a 30-minute walk three times a week, a 30-minute jog three times a week, short hike, short cycle.

SPEAKER_06 13:18

Short cycle, row wearing that much.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

And you know, when people think about wanting to improve their health for those around them, I feel like often the people around the individual, especially in Ireland, can be quite judgmental towards someone taking on a fitness journey or a change like that. And there is a shift, a definitely positive shift hap happening. But I think sometimes it can be like, you know, ah, you don't need to go out. Like, would you not come out with us? Would you not come on down to the pub for a drink? You're not going running again, are you? When really that time is like a health appointment. It's like going to your doctor. I know I'm going for my 30-minute job. I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 14:01

Way better than going to your doctor.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

So, Sean, when you say aerobic training, you say 90 minutes a week, low intensity. Is that essentially zone two?

SPEAKER_06 14:11

So it's zone two. There's a bit of a buzz around zone two. We have to be really clear about what zone is.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

For those, for those who are like, what did she just say zone two for?

SPEAKER_06 14:20

Maybe we'll Yeah, well, I'll tie in because I've spoken about aerobic and anaerobic, we'll briefly cover them. So aerobic and anaerobic are the name of your energy systems. Aerobic means we're creating energy really efficiently, we're using high levels of oxygen, byproductivity is relatively low. When the body's ability to create energy or the need for energy creation goes up, we can't do it aerobically, we become anaerobic. It's just a change of state of energy creation and it becomes inefficient. So you start to ventilate more, you create byproduct, and the exercise is unsustainable. When we train by zones, zones puts us into the energy systems. So zone one, zone two, traditionally aerobic, zone three, zone four, zone five, traditionally anaerobic.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Zone three is traditional.

SPEAKER_06 15:03

I said it wrong. Zone two, one and two, traditionally aerobic. Yeah. Zone three and four, traditionally anaerobic.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 15:08

But now the world has gone to five zones.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:10

So zone one and zone two, aerobic.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:13

Sum of zone three, aerobic.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Make sense, yeah, have you?

SPEAKER_06 15:16

Some of zone three can be anaerobic, four, and five.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Everyone's individual that way.

SPEAKER_06 15:20

Everyone's individual. So when we do VO2 testing, yes, we look at your VO2 max as a marker of health and longevity and fitness. We look at your heart rate elevation to make sure that it elevates okay and it recovers okay. But we'll be able to identify all your training zones.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:33

So you come into me, and one of the big statements you make, or we've spoken off air, yeah, about people that are unwilling to stay in their aerobic zone because they find it boring, ego gets in the way, social media, society pressures. But when you train at an aerobic or below threshold, or you train aerobically, you increase the stroke volume of your heart. You strengthen your heart muscles, you develop better mitochondria. The continent content of oxygenated blood that leaves the heart in one beat.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Which is what we want to increase.

SPEAKER_06 16:05

Yeah, so we increase the cardiac output basically, how well your heart, we realign the strength of your heart, it's like the foundation building. We develop better mitochondria, which is the energy powerhouse of the cell. We create better oxidative tissue, which helps us mop up byproduct at higher intensities. We create a better utilization of fat so your body becomes more metabolic efficient, so we're not creating and utilizing carbohydrate at such a high level, it's low software. It's a low impact.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

It's why are we not all doing?

SPEAKER_06 16:36

Because society, social media, and ego get in the way. Now, don't get me wrong, from a perspective of training diligently for an event or an and you have to train hard, that's fine. We get that, and you do absolutely. There isn't only aerobic conditioning needed. We need anaerobic conditioning, but the balance is wrong for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

And I feel like that imbalance has just spiraled over the last maybe three years on social media, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_06 17:05

Yeah, but like the likes of the hybrid style training events um demand a lot, but rem I think people forget that they're not professional athletes. Like I had a guy last week who has three kids full-time job and does 14 hours a week training.

unknown 17:18

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_06 17:18

And can't understand why he's fatigued and can't understand why he's in erection problems, and can't understand why he's stressed, and can't understand why he's irritable and brain fog and why are people like him feeling the need to train for 14 hours a week? Because he's set himself a goal that he wants to achieve. He's got caught up in the persona of what he needs to do. Yeah. Realistically, the training that he was doing isn't complimenting him anymore.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

No. Like that kind of upsets me because I feel like if you were at that stage of your life training that hard, it's actually doing you a disservice. Where is that spiral going to lead to? Do you know what I mean? Like that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

It's an addiction thing as well. They're addiction to the high. Yeah. Um but it's not even a sad thing about it, but this guy had a greater robot capacity. I wasn't getting him to walk. I was just getting him to slow down for multiple times in a week. So the best athletes turn up every single day. And if I can make you turn up every single day by slowing you down every second day, it's gonna leave you to adaptate better. So fitness doesn't happen when you're training hard, fitness happens when you're recovering, adaptating, growing. So when you're at the lower intensities, but the stimulation is needed. But we need both. We need to train high, we need to cover low. Recover low allows us to train high. If we recover high, we can't train high. So everything gets done around a six or a seven out of ten.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:39

When realistically, you should be doing threes and fours out of tens, eight and nines out of tens.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:43

Now, goal specific, of course. But everybody is different. But I think people think that they just have to go out and really hurt themselves in regards to physically drain themselves to get any benefit in exercise. When realistically, if you're someone that's not exercising, all you need to do is start anything ten minutes, fifteen minutes, twenty minutes, build it up, walking, and then find something that you enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

I wish we could just get that message out to people that, like, you know, low-intensity exercise is more than enough for your health, and it is actually so beneficial. And in this era of really fast runners and high rocks and trica, and I'm not dissing any of that because I'm dying to try out a high rox and a triche. I've obviously I do running, it just makes me worry about the relationship people are forming with exercise and the lack of understanding. It's like it's like the link between exercise and actual health has been disconnected for so many people.

SPEAKER_06 19:39

Yeah, I think that's a great statement. And the simplest analogy though, that might resonate. If you need a big pyramid, you need a wide base.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:47

Or I always talk about a foundation. If your foundation isn't solid, your house falls down.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

I remember sitting with you up in Dublin when we did our test and you were telling us that and I was like, right, it's on two. I need to do more.

SPEAKER_06 19:57

So that's where if you're talking about starting off in sport, or if you want to create a bigger journey, you want to get fitted, you want to get stronger, you need to keep realigning your foundation.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:06

And if you don't do the work to make your foundation strong, you will fall apart. Is that an injury? Is it a mental stress? Is it a fatigue? Is it a stress fracture? Is it there can be so many lowered immunity. We can just list them all that are associated with it.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

And then like nutrition comes into play. I literally have a million questions that I want to dive into here and I don't know where to start. Sean, I want to go back a few steps, right? So we're we're getting ahead of ourselves here. The VO2 Max test itself, let's go back there. So now people, I hope, understand the importance of it, what it can teach us. I want to go back to heart rate zones and dive into that more when it comes to exercise. But the test itself, what does that entail for anyone who's never come across it before?

SPEAKER_06 20:44

So you have a choice, you can do it as a run test, uh treadmill, you can do it as a bike test, so you can use your own bike or a stationary bike, or we can do a row test. Anyone that is incapable of doing any of them tests, we do hand bite tests with wheelchair users.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:57

Um, and we've even done ski org tests with wheelchair users, those that are now hybrid athletes doing the likes of triche and high rocks. Wow. But basically, it's a progressive overload. So you'll have a mask on your face, you'll have a heart rate monitor on. The first we will pre-screen you height, weight, we'll get an understanding of your profile, list through any medication, illnesses, ailments, and we will get you ready to go. First 90 seconds, there's no movement, we're detecting resting heart rate and breathing patterns, and then it's a progressive overload. But the most important thing to note here is that progressive overload is specific to you. You are not required to do something that a four-hour marathon runner will do, a three-hour marathon runner will do. And one of the big things people make the mistake is that they think they're incapable of doing the test because it's for those that are elite. And that's the biggest mistake you make. We had a 68 year old woman in on Saturday who did a an inclined walking test. She thought it was the best thing ever. She scored an excellent result, she got her heart screened, she was delighted, she had a good recovery, she left the place absolutely buzzing, but she said she's gonna come back and get superior. We've had Obviously, anyone that wants to do the test at any level, we we can do it with we've worked on uh clinical trials and obese pregnant women in the Coombe hospital using VO2 analysis, you know. So it's applicable to anybody as long as you can walk or cycle or row at whatever intensity that you want to carry out the activity at, and we'll make sure we're so long in the game now that every single test will make sure that the person is taken to within their capabilities, but also pushed to what their maximum is of achieving in a safe way.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yeah, in a safe way. I love that. I was definitely one of those people who had this misconception that I couldn't go to do a VO2 max test unless I felt like I was at my best level of fitness because this was something that you would only see Olympians going to do, and I guess it's just because that's the only content I came across. But thanks to you, I see so much more of that, so many different ages, and I hope I can inspire anyone listening that might be in their 50s, 60s, or that has family in their 50s, 60s, 70s to go and do a test like this because I think with some of my relatives, the initial thought would be that's a bit scary, it's not a comfortable environment for me. I don't like pushing my body that hard. Do you get that a lot from older people?

SPEAKER_06 23:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But it's also, and I love being not the bearer of bad news, but I'm incredibly honest.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:28

And if somebody is coming in and scoring very low, I'm gonna tell them that things change. No, you can't, but you also can't sugar weight as well. We had a guy in last week and he was over 100 kilos and he's trying to achieve various different things in sport, and I was like, Man, you need to lose weight. He's like, Well, no, I don't. I was like, No, you do like you need to lose weight for this reason, this reason, this reason. But if you're coming in and you're scoring very, very low in a VO2 max, your risk of mortality is significantly higher than what it should be. And we and we don't want to direct it or scare people, but the point you were saying there that you want to get it tested at the peak fitness, I think that's where people make the mistake.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yes, yeah. I'll wait until I'm at my fittest.

SPEAKER_06 24:07

To walk out the door and go, brilliant. Yeah. You scored really well. When realistically, the score is only one aspect of your test. We're gonna learn everything about your feeling requirements, your draining zones, your heart rate elevation, and what we need to do at any stage when you come into us to make you get to the level that you want to get to quicker. So you work with your body rather than against it.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

I love that. I guess it's like you don't wait until you're at your healthiest to go into the doctor. No, perfect. So you shouldn't wait until you're at your fittest to go and get a VO2 max. Rob away. Um, I had so many questions here, and I haven't even got any of them because our conversation has just taken off, and I love that. I wanted to ask you what is the lowest VO2 max score you've ever come across, and then what's the highest? But also to give people like that idea of the range that exists within the scale of VO2 Max results. Right. So in front of us here, we actually have my results, guys, from when I did a VO2 max test with Sean. That was it last September. I'm not sure the date is on it, Sean. It was definitely before the marathons, which were in October, so it could have even you tested on the 18th of August at 1.16 pm. Oh my god, and I'll never forget you had to be fasted. And I was like an antichrist because I'm like usually have my breakfast so early and I'm on to lunch at that stage.

SPEAKER_06 25:20

Um so category-wise, sorry to go back to that. Yeah if I could I should probably get the categories for you. But your ranges have changed. So the latest publication of the American College of Sports Medicine have changed these categories now. It's age and gender categorized.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 25:36

So the first age is 13 to 19, and we go all the way up now to 80 to 89. So every 10 years it's different categories.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Let's just say, could you give me what might be a roughly good score for a woman mid-20s and a male mid-20s?

SPEAKER_06 25:54

What I want them to get or what's considered good on a category. So like the categories now it is indirectly, I suppose. Uh the category what I want them to get is different. The categories are slightly different. So the highest goal now is a 20 to 29-year-old male. They're the highest categories that are considered to be superior. Okay. So for a 20 to 29-year-old male to score superiorly, they need to get over a 63.5 VO2 max. Like that's it's it's tough. Like it is unquestionably tough. For years I felt like scales were quite generous. Yes. And we'd have people come in and they wouldn't necessarily be the best athlete, but they would be categorized as superior. And I'd be like, there's so many other parameters that make a fitness profile, but I'd be like, okay, you've obviously a sporting background, genetics plays a role, you used to do a lot of sport. A female in her 20s, you want to be getting over a 40.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

A female in her 20s over 40.

SPEAKER_06 26:46

Like to get superior now for a female 20 to 29, you need to get over 46.5.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

And this might be a little bit specific, but I'm going off kind of listenership ages that we have. If I was to bring that up to mid-30s, does it change much?

SPEAKER_06 26:58

Yeah, slightly. So to get into a super category range, mid-30s, you're looking at to get over a 41 to get superior.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 27:04

Over 37, 38 to be considered excellent.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Sorry, guys, I'm still superior. What did we get on? 51.8. But you know what?

SPEAKER_06 27:11

You're still superior.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Like the thing is you're never happy because I came out and I was like delighted, but then I started looking up things and other people's results, and I was like, oh, I could have done a few seconds more. So just just to give you the visualization, guys, we went up, we did this in West West Park. West Park Fitness, yeah. It's gonna say West Side. West Park Fitness up in Dublin. Uh, you're on the treadmill, you've a big mask on, you're hooked up to the machine, Sean is beside you, coating it on, telling you not to quit your well able. Um, but also gave me pre-warning that when everyone says they're done, they can't do any more. The second the mask comes off, they wish they had it done a few seconds more. It's such a crazy feeling. The test in its entirety was probably, was it 15 minutes or something? 15 minutes. Because you start off, like you said, stationary, you start going faster. And what happens is the speed of the treadmill goes up alongside the incline, which is going up as well, until you are literally at your wit's end and you're like, I can't do anymore. And it's only 15 minutes. But so I want to, I suppose I don't want to center this around my test, but obviously I have so much knowledge from that. I want you to explain uh the secondary element that we did up there, which was the metabolic testing, and then maybe we can go back and link in how I use the two.

SPEAKER_06 28:27

Let me answer the question on the highest score and lowest score.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Oh, sorry, yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_06 28:31

Lowest score I ever done was a 14.3. It was bad. Oh my god. Really bad. We do a lot of corporate wellness, like a lot of corporate wellness, where we go on site into companies and carry out testing, and a lot of times the company pays for the testing, so people are a lot more willing to sign up to it. And this fella got a 14.3.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Do you know what? I feel like I feel like we're living in a day and age where everyone, like you said, wants to be a an athlete, like a professional athlete, or they're training like a professional athlete. That when you hear a figure like that, you kind of think, God, I'm not doing so bad. I'm sure the majority of people listening are going to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_06 29:06

But things like that for me, when I see scores like that, I like it. It is. It's a it's a real blunt and hard conversation to have that he needs it was a he needs to change his life.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

So you're basically saying like, listen, you've got a VO2 max score of 14.3 was that.

SPEAKER_06 29:21

14.3.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

But you're cutting your life by a series 20 years.

SPEAKER_06 29:25

He was massively overweight. His heart for the effort that we were doing, the rate at which it increased was alarming. His recovery was very poor. But he needs to change his life uh walking out that door that day.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

And did he? Did you stay in touch?

SPEAKER_06 29:39

I've never seen him since. We've been in the facility. Um I didn't hear anything about it. But a lot of times when you make these changes, you make these efforts with people, they will try and avoid you. Yeah. You know, uh the highest I've ever seen an 89.3. He runs a 14 minute 5k.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

No. 89.

SPEAKER_06 29:56

So the highest in the world's in 96. Now there's questions.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Well god, I never knew any of this. Hold on, what age was the guy that got 89?

SPEAKER_06 30:02

No, 31, 32.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 30:04

Now he was lean, runner, 6 foot, 60 kilos, built a run. 6 foot 60 kilos. Something like that, 62 kilos, something like that. But so the highest in the world's 96. There is question marks that there's been a new record break of over a hundred. There's other aspects of testing parameters that I don't think match up when you look at the data, when you know the data. Yeah. But 96 I know is definitely confirmed. Um, so 89.4, yeah. I know I've done 25,000 tests, I've tested for 15 years. I've probably can count on one hand the amount of people I've done in the 80s.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Wow. Yeah, that is a strange.

SPEAKER_06 30:38

Now we've done astronomical amounts of people in the 60s and 70s. Yeah. But when you get 80s, I had a young cyclist in last year, actually, who is being looked at by all the big cycling teams, and he scored an 85 or an 86 on his own bike pushing 500, 600 watts like astronomical power.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

The inner competitiveness in me is like, let me back on that tremble now.

SPEAKER_06 30:59

It's context. It's context.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

If you can make 52, I'll be doing well. Um so then can I go back to I think we've answered most of the questions surrounding VO2 Max, why it's important, what it is, and the categories people can land themselves into. Um when I was up with you, we also did a metabolic test. Uh, metabolism, metabolic functioning, why it's important. Can you explain this a little bit?

SPEAKER_06 31:24

So we do main two tests we do is metabolic and VO2. Metabolic test is a 98% accurate measurement on energy expenditure. So it's done through a little test called indirect calometry. So in order for you or me to burn a calorie, we must consume 0.8 of a milliliter of oxygen. So it's a little test, lead breed through a small valve, you block your nose with a nose clip, and it will give us how much energy or calories you burn in a day. So that's your resting metabolic rate. We'll give you a predictive value for professional activity because we will ask you about your job, your movement, and then it will give you a predictive value for exercise calories. Yeah. However, the VO2 will give us your real in-depth exercise calories. So if you're doing the double, we don't necessarily need it. Yeah. We use metabolic testing for those that are looking to understand energy requirements, those are looking to gain weight, lose weight, or fuel their performance. It's not in there.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah. Sorry. This effective fat burn, was that anything to do with it?

SPEAKER_06 32:15

So that's in the VO2.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Ah, okay. So I'm looking at my results in front of me here, guys, and I had one sheet which was effective fat burn. And this now might be a little bit complicated, but I thought this came from the metabolic testing.

SPEAKER_06 32:27

No, so it didn't. Well, go through it. So the I don't need um he doesn't need the numbers. Um so within a VO2 test, let's just we'll we'll go back to the metabolic stuff in a minute. So VO2 tests will give us VO2 score, peak heart rate, heart rate elevation, heart rate recovery, five training zones, two thresholds, calorie expenditure to match your exercise. So this is important. So for anyone that's doing that much really doesn't for anyone that's doing an endurance event, or anyone that's training for to perform, you burn energy when you exercise.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:58

Now, standard human physiology will show you that the lower the intensity, the more fat you burn, the higher the intensity, the more carbohydrates you burn.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:06

That's a fact.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:07

Okay. Now you will have athletes that come in that are super efficient and they burn fat for really long periods of time.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Is that because they have done so much training in zone two?

SPEAKER_06 33:18

Exactly. So remember, I spoke about one of the benefits of training low is you become more metabolic flexible, you become metabolically more adaptated to utilize fat as fuel.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

So that is a statement I think we need to reiterate here because we're flying through so much really useful information. I want people to like rewind and listen again. But just in this era of high-intensity training and competitions that is going absolutely nowhere. A lot of people are doing it because yes, they want to perform, but also they want to look a certain way. There's two sides of that coin. And all of the training for like Hyrocks and Trica that I see, all of the classes that I see put together, they're all high intensity. Everyone comes out literally unable to breathe, dying of death, sweat dripping off them, and that's what they want, that's what they love. But then they're like, I can't, I can't lose this stubborn bit of fat. And look, I'm the number one person to say it's not all about the aesthetics, it's about the performance, it's about your health. But guys, zone two is gonna be the way to go to get more of that.

SPEAKER_06 34:22

Well, if you look at all your physique models, yeah. So, like, we there's a fella in my gym that he trains physique models, all his physique models do low-intensity cardio.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yeah, like these like the bodybuilding guys, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:33

But this so this now opens up a whole different conversation where we're looking at it from a fueling perspective, and that's the route I thought you were going.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Sorry, that's the route I meant to go, but I got distracted.

SPEAKER_06 34:41

It's alright. The carb utilization. So the harder you work, the more carbohydrates you're gonna burn. The simplest analogy for anyone listening to this now, and I say it over and over and over and over again, is you can't drive a car with no petrol. So if you want to drive your car further and faster, you need more petrol. So if you want to drive your car in second gear at a really slow pace, and you're happy to go along with no real speed increases, you can get by on utilising fat as a fuel. But if you expect to turn up to a training session having worked all day, young family, probably out coaching or farming or whatever you're doing, and then you're going up to do a trika or a high-rock session or an interval session or a spin session or a Mai Thai session or an MMA session or whatever you want to do at high intensity, and you're aiming to do that without carbohydrate, you are performing with an anchor on, you're performing with a parachute on, you are driving your car with poor levels of petrol. This is the simplest thing you will ever do to change the quality of your training is learn to utilize carbohydrate pre-exercise. So carbohydrate, any dentists out there, I know it's bad, and health nutrition and sports nutrition are not the same thing. They're my two disclaimers. Yes. But apple juice, orange juice, energize, leukozate, jam, honey, white bagels, jam, yeah, we space like learn to embrace simple carbohydrate, cereals. You will perform significantly better. Now, not only will you perform better, you recover better. You recover better, everything else around you recovers better. How many times people go home, they're unable to function, they can't get off the couch, they're irritable, they're snapping at their kids, snapping at their partner, they've no energy, there's brain fog, there's irritability, they lose their cycle, will come on to that. You suffer reds, there's um sex drive issues, libido problems, and all of a sudden you strip it all back and it's because you're simply overtrained and underfueled.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:23

You need to take responsibility to fuel. If you're training in the evening, having a banana at one o'clock's not going to cut it.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

And if you are too afraid to fuel with as many carbohydrates as you may need, which I feel like a lot of women are because I was that woman, now is not the time to be signing up for a marathon.

SPEAKER_06 36:43

No, absolutely not. And you should never lose a weight during training for a marathon.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

No, I gained weight during training.

SPEAKER_06 36:48

Good.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

From the time I was with you.

SPEAKER_06 36:49

That's music's my ears. Now, look, I'm not saying you're not going to lose weight, but your priority shouldn't be losing weight in a marathon.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

So you're asking for an injury.

SPEAKER_06 36:57

I think an easy thing to do is if we're looking at Natalie's results here, and if we look at when her heart rate was at 178 beats, she was burning 516 calories from carbohydrate and 132 calories from fat. So collectively, she was burning over 650, or let's say 650 calories.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

So when we talk about people replenishing fuel when they're doing a marathon, we talk about intra-race fueling, we would ask them to take a third of what they're burning. So if you're burning 600 calories from carbohydrate, I'd ask you to take 200 back on, which is 75 grams of carbohydrate, which depending on your brand is going to range between one, two, or three gels an hour. And people stress out and go, I couldn't take that in, I'll gain weight. But I always bring it back and go, Well, you're burning six gels an hour. I'm only asking you to take two on. Yeah. If you know how to maths to do maths, you know how to math. Come on, Sean. If you know how to do maths, um simple maths mathematical equations is weight management. So although there's millions of contributing factors from hormones and macronutrients and vitamins and minerals, and we we get that. I'm not saying they don't play a role, 100% they do. But if you're concerned that me getting you to feel better for a run is going to influence your weight, it's wrong. I'm gonna make you perform better, I'm gonna make you feel better, we're gonna make you turn up, we're gonna make you more consistent, we're not we're gonna make you not come home and eat everything in sight because you're so hungry. That's one of the big problems.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:19

Because people's carbohydrate requirement drops off. And remember, your brain fuels off carbohydrate. So if you are someone that suffers a lot of brain fog, irritability, and fatigue, it's time to look at your carbohydrate load.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

I feel like uh this was my biggest learning when I came to you. And training for that first marathon of mine, and I share this because I feel like it might be relatable for some people, even if you're training for your first, you know, 10k half marathon, uh, whatever it might be, you really helped me to understand as someone who has done nutritional and health coaching, um didn't do nutritional therapy, which I think you did. Yeah, yeah. But that obviously that course, which was a year long, was for the average individual who doesn't do um marathons or high-end sport. It wasn't sports nutrition, it was kind of everyday nutrition. So that's what I had learned, that's all I knew. So for me to step into this area of having as many carbs as you were telling me to have was a bit unsettling, but I had gone through enough recovery um time from my eating disorder over the years, and it was at this point where I was like, no, like you know, we go to see professionals for a reason. I knew how important it was to get enough carbs in, so I keep a regular menstrual cycle because I had lost mine for five or six years. I got it back in 2021. Was that when we had COVID? Yeah. Um, and I was like, I'm never going back, I'm never going back. But it was actually scary to take in the carbs that I was taking in. I did it, but it's so how did you feel? Uh I felt equally empowered and uneasy. And I think that's because if you're someone who's ever struggled from or struggled with an eating disorder, I don't I don't say this in a heavy negative way, do you know, or or severe disordered eating? There's always a a part of your brain that goes a bit like, ooh, like, you know, kind of little alarm bells, like I'm having like literally the biggest bowl of frosties dosed with honey sort of in the like in the morning. Like that's that's not something I ever would have done. I'm having three or four jet gels on my run, I'm coming back and I'm having another big meal. Like that was I think.

SPEAKER_06 40:35

How did you feel physically?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Yeah, so that was the the mental side of it. But the more the weeks went on, I felt like I can't believe I've I've spent so many years not experiencing this level of energy, not experiencing this level of of performance, of power, of recovery. And after a few weeks of taking, I suppose, the the intake on board that you recommended, I just couldn't wait to eat more. Like I couldn't wait to have more caps because I was like, I feel incredible.

SPEAKER_06 41:05

It's such an easy win.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Honestly.

SPEAKER_06 41:07

It's such an easy win, but it like you said, it's trust. It's trust, but the trust comes with noticing change.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:14

And I think that's the most important thing. And I, secondary to what I do in terms of giving all these numbers to people, you have to keep a journal, or you have to keep something to correlate with the increase in carbohydrate or zone two. And I speak to people like, you are not gonna need to nap, you are not gonna be as irritable with your children, you are not gonna have as much brain fog, your memory might be better, your partner, your friends might start to know each of an extra spring in your step. Yeah, you're happier, your skin, your hair, your nails is better, you get a better menstrual cycle, you have a better sex drive, whatever it is, and all of a sudden you're thinking, just because I ate a bit more carbohydrate, yeah, or fuel in general.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

And this is where I think I feel like we're we're in this world where there's like a crossover at the moment between like elite athletes or elite even recreational athletes. I heard someone use that word before, and I was like, I feel like that's what a lot of people are. You know, we're not getting paid to be athletes, but we're performing like we are. And then you have the 90s babies kind of era where it was all skinny is trending, it was all like um Tyra Banks, America's Next Top Model, isn't that like all of that? And I feel like there's this crossover now where a lot of these people who experienced the highly skinny trending times are now entering into high performance times of marathons, high rocks, and I just know I'm not the only one who would struggle with letting go of the skinny trending mindset into this fueling mindset, and I love seeing this shift online that is happening about fueling more and performance and true health over aesthetics, but also I feel like the shift is at a bit of a standstill right now because on on my social media, I don't know if you see this or you see it with your clients at all, everyone's saying that like skinny talk is trending again and that it's really dangerous and people are trying to look slim again. Do you find that many of your clients coming in put body image to the side and they're not thinking about it, or do you feel you see people that have a bit of a struggle as well?

SPEAKER_06 43:13

We've such a wide variety of clients. Um you've late 20s, early late 20s, 30s, early 40s females in Ireland are the ones that struggle mostly because of what you've just said. Trusting calories are your friend, trusting that carbohydrate is going to make you feel better. And it's just the constant wins that we get.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

Like the constant feedback that we get. I cannot believe how good I feel.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

And let me be the one to tell you guys that that is going to happen. If you're training for half marathon or marathon or whatever it is, I just can't recommend enough doing a test like this with Sean or in Health Matters to just get the guidance on how much carbohydrates you should be taking into fuel or training with the city.

SPEAKER_06 43:53

But it's even just it's the overall caloric range, it's mixing both and understanding that the fuel to drive the car, the petrol, the oil. What do we need to do to get it to make you? But the trust the the data is in front of you, it's the trust you're putting in me and my team and our delivery of information. But you will notice that your training improves. Yeah. Like I've had one fella I always talk about this fella and he's a friend of mine, but I won't tell you his name. And last two years ago, he reached out to me and he's like, Sean, I need to go and get my bloods done. Can you organise it for me? Blah blah. And I was like, Whoa, let's kind of strip it back here. What's the problem? And he's like, Oh, I feel so tired, you know, I've no energy, my mood is poor, it's affecting my relationship, everything going on. And I was like, Well, let's look at what time you eat at, let's look at what time you train at. So he's getting up every day to train at five. So his training was at five, it was at high intensity training, and it was fasted.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Red flags.

SPEAKER_06 44:42

And all I said was, right, let's get a bit of carbohydrate into the morning. So eat the carbs late at night. Yeah. Let's sacrifice at least two or three of them sessions at five o'clock for a bit more sleep, and let's bring in some low-intensity training. Trish was hit PB after PB after PB. They've just welcomed their second child into the world. Oh. You know, like if you look at the snowball effect of what it's doing, and he now laughs every time he sees me, he'll bring me like a bottle of Lucasette or something, just as a mess. A couple of my clients bring me carbohydrate drinks when they come into me because they literally say it changed them overnight.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Well, I don't have a carbohydrate drink for you today, but I did get I did get a slice of banana bread from my favourite little um cafe in the link. So you can have that. Um But come here, you said something there that kind of resonated with me when you were like, he's getting PB after PB after PB after PB now. And I literally went on my Instagram stories recently and I was like, guys, I the penny's literally dropping with me right now, Sean. I went on stories and I was like, I don't know what's going on in my body, but I have been hitting PB after PB after PB. And I was like, I'm not trying to say this in a big head way or an egotistical way. And I explained how it was like, I think it's opened my eyes up to consistency and training over a period of of of years now and being up and down with injuries and stuff, and it's it's finally all paying off. And I was like, I just don't want anyone to compare my race paces to your everyday run pace because yes, my 5k PB, I hit 20 minutes, 33 seconds. But thanks to Max, he was like pacing me. Uh but my everyday 5k is 30 minutes. Uh but genuinely now you're saying all this, I'm like, do you know what? I don't think it's actually down to yes, consistency, obviously, in your training, but it's equally having so much more carbs since I sat down and had a chat with you that day and doing more zone two training.

SPEAKER_06 46:38

Yeah, but like it's so we educate you, you go and apply, and the results follow. But like you mentioned, you're more consistent. Yeah. You're more consistent because you're fueled better.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

It's the fueling.

SPEAKER_06 46:47

You're more consistent because you build a better base, because you do more zone two.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Butterfly fact.

SPEAKER_06 46:51

Yes. You're more consistent because your foundation is more robust, you have developed better body chondria, your training load is better. So you would have probably ran hard, hard, hard, hard injury, fatigue, fatigue, fatigue, not quality. Now you're going hard, easy, easy, hard, hard, easy, easy, hard. So everything's just trending the whole time. So you're more consistent, less risk of injury, better fueling, better recovery.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Life-changing.

SPEAKER_06 47:13

PBs.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

I love it.

SPEAKER_06 47:14

You know, and that and that's what it is. And when you sit back and look at it and the trust of the fuel, and it's more female than it isn't, time and time again. I like what do you we go in, we'd speak to someone, what are you eating? Yeah. And they're oh, I'm eating 2,000 calories. I'm like, You eat 2,000 calories? You just told me you're a nurse that does four, 12 hours shifts, you have three kids, and you tell them you want to compete, and this woman I'm thinking of wants to compete at a really high level of CrossFit. Okay. And we gave her, I asked her to eat, I can't remember exact numbers, but I asked her to eat an extra 800 calories, right? And she was like, Absolutely no way, Sean, I can't do it. I was like, I don't want to do it today, but let's try and bring it in over the next couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

The fear to eat more, the want to perform better.

SPEAKER_06 47:54

And I was like, just stay in contact with me. So just draw me a voice now on Instagram, just keep telling me what's happening. Because if you're interested, I'll stay interested. And then she was like, I can't believe what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

She did start having more fuel.

SPEAKER_06 48:04

Yeah, and she's leaner than she's ever been, she's stronger than she's ever been, she's more energy than she's ever been, and she's achieving results in the sport where she's podium and winning a lot of events now. And she was just afraid of fueling.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:18

But without the fuel, you can't drive the car. So that if you're someone that's lifting trainings to lift and they're stagnating in their lifts, yeah, high possibility you're underfueled.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Yeah, it's so true. Like, even before I compare half marathons before Sean Canaan and my half marathons after Sean Cannan. Uh, but when I started having more gels and had like that meal before the race was different to what I used to be having, the difference in performance blew my mind. Like before the VHI women's mini marathon, I had had now with banana and honey and a bit of peanut butter on the first set, I had had like six slices of of Brennan sliced pan white. There is no way I would have touched white sliced pan years ago. But again, this is sports nutrition. But I got a sub 45.

SPEAKER_06 49:08

I'm gonna give out you for a peanut butter though.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

But see, that was just in the morning. Okay. It was really early. That was like seven, the race was a half twelve.

SPEAKER_06 49:14

So anyone wondering why uh reduced fat fibre and spice before any long run? Yeah. 48 hours prior.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

So this was my one of my biggest struggles after leaving you was that obviously we were speaking about how important the carbohydrates were, but I am actually someone who loves fats. So I love my dark chocolate, I love peanut butter, I love seeds. And not, I suppose it was a bit of a sacrifice, like the night before long run. I could hear Sean in my head telling me he had white rice, chicken goujons, and sweet chili sauce. So I went out and I bought my chicken goujons, and it was lovely. But afterwards, I was like, I'm dying for dark chocolate, like a bit of peanut butter in the morning before the long run. The frosties were lovely, but I was like, I'm dying for a bit of peanut butter. Like I just crave the fats.

SPEAKER_06 49:57

Yeah, but remember it's collective, it's overall volume.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

But if I had them, which one or two mornings or evening, say before those long runs in the marathon training block, I would have had them thinking, I'll be fine. My stomach was not fine because obviously you just can't digest it.

SPEAKER_06 50:11

Yeah, see, like a lot of people blame the gels, or a lot of people ja blame carbohydrate sources for their digestive discomfort or the need to go to the toilet when they're out running. When realistically it's the fat fibre spice that has been consumed the 48 hours leading into it.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Spice too, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:27

So I'm like I'm really, really strict on it. Yeah, really strict.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

And when you were that strict in how you spoke about it, the first time we went up there, the only time we went up there, I was kind of like, ah sure it would be grand. Showing a little bit of a lot of people.

SPEAKER_06 50:40

When you look at fat, people don't think fat is pesto. People don't think fat is peanut butter, people don't think fat is buttons. Mince, steak, olive oil, you know, carbonaras. When you strip it all back, people are like, Well, am I gonna eat? Eat chicken and rice with a bit of sweet, or no sweet chili is a bit of spots, but it has more sugar in it. More sugar, yeah. But looking at it, and like I used to wreck my wife's head, she was like, Oh, what your long run on Sunday? I'm like, Yeah, she's like, Well, what are we doing for dinner? And I was like, No, I'm not eating that, I'm not eating that. She's like, Well, make your own dinner. So I would always prep my own stuff, yeah, take nothing away. I'm not saying my way, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um but I would be like, Look, I look after my food for the 48 hours into my long run. And people might think, Oh, look, it's a bit obsessive or anything like that. Never once in my whole endurance running career, not that I have one, yeah, have I ever had any stomach journey, have I ever had any stomach issues ever. Yeah, um, and I put a lot of that down to my window of awareness. Yeah. So I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Window of awareness, that's beautiful. Keep that. Can we can we take down a list here, Ashabal?

SPEAKER_06 51:34

Window of awareness um in regards to fueling. So making sure that my carbs are high, making sure my fat's fibre and spice is low.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:41

And going and embracing and enjoying the utilization of carbohydrates.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

Yeah, and it is incredible then when you're out running it, it feels so good. Okay, I feel like we've covered a lot of VO2 max, metabolic testing, fueling for running. I just have, before we go on to kind of some some trending questions, I wanted to ask you one more thing about heart rate zones. Do you think a lot of people are training in the wrong heart rate zones?

SPEAKER_06 52:03

It's a whole episode on its own. I haven't even touched on heart rate zones. Uh right, so heart rate zones are a massive problem. Yeah. If the zone is made up from an algorithm, it's wrong. If the zone is made up from your watch, it's wrong. If the zone is made up using ChatGBT, it's wrong. Um, heart rate zones are very, very, very individual. Just because someone is the same age, height, weight, and sex as you doesn't mean they have the same heart rate. You and your brother don't have the same heart rate, and your sister don't have the same heart rate. It's such an individual thing with hundreds and thousands of contributing factors to your heart rate. I probably told you and Max when you were up about my son and daughter, they've they will have completely different heart rates for the rest of their life. My daughter was an emergency C-section, she was brought into the world in trauma, her heart rate is higher than my son's, who was natural delivery.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

I have told that to so many people because my heart rate came up so much higher than kind of average when we did our test that I've I explained it to so many people. Like my yeah. Did you think so?

SPEAKER_06 52:58

When you said higher than average, I'm not concerned about it, but yeah, it is higher than average.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

Do you know? But I think that's because you know, so it's no secret to people following me. I'm an ambassador with Polar. Um, I'm wearing the Polar Street X at the minute. I absolutely love it. And ever since getting into fitness, regardless of the roller coaster ride I had with fueling, heart rate zones and zone two training was always something I was really clued in on. And probably from wearing my watch and looking at Polar's social media, I understood that it was really important. However, going through a period where I was kind of addicted to the high intensity years and years ago. Um, so obviously, every watch, every brand out there, they can only do so much when it comes to estimating what your heart rate zone might be given your age, weight, height, and everything you put into a gender. Um and that's fine, but like you said, for some people it can be so different. And when I did my test with you, I'm actually still shook as to how different my heart rate zones were compared to what was inbuilt in my watch. Now, what is so fantastic about Polar, not to big them up here, uh hashtag Abbas. I have always they're the OG heart rate monitors. Um but the watch, like within the Polar Flow app, there's a there's a feature where you can change the heart rate zones to being specifically what you have been told they are, which is probably a small percentage of of polar or smartwatch users that actually have gone and done a test like this to be told what their heart rate zones are, but you can change it. So when I changed it on my watch, oh my god, training for me was a totally different ballgame because my my heart rate zones were actually way higher. And even I'm sure they won't mind me saying this after was it the half marathon I did in NACE where I got 138, 30 something, murdered myself.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

Everybody tell me, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

I sent someone a message after that. I was like, I'm literally concerned. My heart rate was so high, but I was, I did nearly feel unwell. I pushed myself so incredibly hard for that. But I think even when they saw clips of the watch, they were like, that doesn't look right. And I don't think you could be with your heart rate that high for so long. And your zone two probably isn't that high. But I actually got back to them and I was like, look, I'm attaching the results of my test. Here's who I went to. I linked your website. I was like, we actually did a test that is like 98% accuracy. Am I right?

SPEAKER_06 55:19

Yeah, but the identification of zones, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Yeah. So I was like, I've actually changed my zones. Um, because they were like, maybe there's a fault within in the watch, something doesn't look right. And I was like, no, I actually changed them based off test results, and they were like, ah, okay, you're on the ball, fair play. So that was fine. But even I can't understand how my zone two is. Do we have in front of us there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:39

Uh 155 to 172.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

172. So here I am. When I was trying to do my zone two training, I was looking at my watch and I was like, right, stay below 133 or whatever it was. Sure, it wasn't even.

SPEAKER_06 55:52

This is this is the this is the problem. Yeah. Um we and I have been an advocate of heart rate training zones for 15 years in Ireland, and you'll always be get up against the people that will say, Heart rate training doesn't work, I have to walk in my zone two. That's not their real zone two. It's an algorithm, it's a zone that's made up based on a generalised formula that is inaccurate and not specific to them.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

It's the best they can do, like in a in an algorithm and with software, but to go and do a test like this and change it to be your own heart rate zones for someone who is quite serious about their training.

SPEAKER_06 56:23

I think that's the biggest feedback we get.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Really?

SPEAKER_06 56:26

Yeah, like it's like they know that that's not their real zone two, but it's like it's a weight lifted off someone's shoulders. Yeah. You can see the joy in someone's face when I say, There's your real zone two. Yeah. And they're like, Wow.

SPEAKER_02 56:39

You know, I was not finding that joyful. I had allowed to push someone out.

SPEAKER_06 56:43

I had a guy yesterday and he'd done a retest, he tested with us last year, and he had moved his zones up 10 beats. So he'd gone from a high zone two of 151, it was now 162. And he said he's But he got fitter. He got fitter, yeah, he got way fitter in all aspects. Okay, so his VO2 didn't go up.

SPEAKER_03 57:04

Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:05

So does his file, why his VO2 didn't go up, his length of test went up, his max heart rate came down. Ah, that's so confusing. His recovery improved, but his ability to create energy aerobically went up. So his threshold increased in heart rate and in pace. So sometimes people's heart rate can come down and their pace can go up. This fellow's heart rate went up with his speed.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Okay, so that's not a red flag in any way. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 57:36

He said he was like, I really feel like I'm absolutely coasting in the 150s. Uh 150, and he was.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:43

You know, so zones are very specific to you as an individual. Me and my brother have two completely different zones. He we share parents, his heart rate's about 50 beats higher than mine.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

Stop!

SPEAKER_06 57:52

Yeah, yeah. He's a been a competitive butterfly swimmer all his life. He does 100 and 200 meter efforts. Wow. Well, I would have done a lot more of endurance. But remember, let's trip it way back. When you're in the womb that we're really on my back. What's going on is when like the influence back then is influencing your heart rate.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

It's cr that blows my mind and actually kind of gives me a bit of fear for like if I ever become a mum, those few months, the the the birth, those first few days, really can affect so much.

SPEAKER_06 58:21

Yeah, but like it's again, we're we're we're learning a lot more now. But when you're in the room, drink, drugs, stress, like what's the environment you're in? Is there exercise? Are you like obviously we've moved a lot on in terms of even think about pregnant women being around uh in a pub where people are smoking, or in a car where people are smoking. So true, you know, or even the awareness around smoking. Simple things like that. Like it is going to affect your heart rate. Um, but your heart rate is individual, your heart rate is specific to you. And one of the mistakes I find people make is training partners. There might be a group of men or a group of women, not picking on women, but they tend to ask more questions about it than men, in terms of why is her heart rate like that and my heart rate like this. Or why can't I get my heart rate to where her heart rate is? Who cares?

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:04

We need to stop. Comparison's the killer of all joy, comparison's the killer of performance in exercise. When people start to chase other people's heart rate. If your boat running, I'm making these numbers up right now, if you're boat running a six minute kilometre and your heart rate's 141 and your friend's heart rate's 162, who cares?

SPEAKER_02 59:23

I love that. I feel like people need to take more heed of that in the training year we're in.

SPEAKER_06 59:28

But that's it. I have a really low heart rate. My max heart rate's like 158, 159.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Stop.

SPEAKER_06 59:32

Okay, so let's say me and you go for a run, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Mine's like but mine was actually higher than what that said.

SPEAKER_06 59:37

Yeah. Okay, so let's look at this, right? So let's say me and you go for a run. If we go for a five-minute kilometre run, right? Your heart rate's gonna be 183. I could run a five-minute kilometre pace at 130. You would be walking at 130.

SPEAKER_04 59:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:51

That doesn't mean anything other than that we've completely different heart rates. You're preset to have a higher heart rate than I am.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Whereas before going to you, I was like, does this mean I'm unfit?

SPEAKER_06 59:59

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

That's where I think there's a big misconception.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:02

Now, what we would probably find with you, and I would put, I'm not a betting man, but I'd bet on this. Um I would imagine what will happen when we retest you is that your zones will have come down because you've done a lot more aerobic conditioning within your capacity. Yeah. So you've become significantly more efficient. So if we can increase the amount of oxygenated blood that leaves your heart, your overall heart rates will come back down. So you're probably finding now you're running faster, but you're not in them zones anymore. You'll probably have a lower. Yeah, so you'll probably have a lower average heart rate. So people come into us and they're like, I just can't get my heart rate up there anymore. I'm losing my fitness. I'm like, well, how's all your events? Oh, PB and everything feel great, because you've become so much more efficient at using oxygen. So your heart rate's coming down. Okay. So for people that have higher heart rates, that is that is a change that can occur.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

Definitely we'll have to get back in soon for another test. Right, question for you. Now, this is kind of veering off from all of the science and just getting your opinion on different bits. Yeah, your opinion.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:57

My opinion.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

So running has obviously exploded over the last three years on social media. Like London Marathon just announced they're doing two days, which I actually think is bonkers.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:08

I think it's greedy.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

Yeah, I it's my opinion. Everyone seems really happy about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:13

I can understand, but does it take it away?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

I think it does.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:17

London one or London two?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

One day, like one day, that's the big day, the big moment, the atmosphere. And I just think to split that over two days, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:25

For me, it could work really well though.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:27

It's going to work really well, Sean. I think it will because there's so many people that have obviously applied to do it this year. But do you think running has become more about performance than health? Because when I go online now, everyone is chasing PBs, and I feel hypocritical for saying that because I'm someone who's who's got more PBs recently. But are we actually healthier or are we fitter and ignoring our bodies?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:54

I don't think it's a bad thing. I think there's a lot of there's still a lot of people that don't care about the results.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

That's true.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:03

But there really is, you know, and I know some really good runners, and one of the things that winds him up most is when people ask him what time he got, he goes, I just went to enjoy myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:14

It doesn't matter what time I got. You know, yes, we're driven, and I think society praise is a problem. You know, when I was training for the marathon, people would be constantly asking me, Well, why am I not putting up in Strava? I'm like, because it's none of our business. Yeah. So have we lost it? Probably. Is it a positive focus? Maybe, because it adds a bit better structure into your training. But I I don't I honestly don't the the cohort of people that I'm dealing with, I don't believe that the health aspect has been lost.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

Forgotten. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

I love that.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:46

Maybe it's not as on a maybe it's not as highlighted as it should be, the positive effect that they're creating for the rest of their life by doing what they're doing. They enjoy it, it's a social, there's a lot of social aspect to running in these great running clubs that are set up now where people are meeting up two, three times a week that would have never done anything. We've worked with a load of them recently. We're with Cherry Orchard, we're with Kingswood, we're with Clindack and Flyers, with the RTM Beaumont. Like these clubs are fantastic at doing what they're doing to create the awareness on getting a group and a social aspect of performance going. Yes, they probably do seek the the goal, the personal goal, but health comes with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

It's good to have a goal. Yeah, no, I love that. That was great. Right, next one for you. Do you think too many people are signing up for marathons before building the foundations or understanding what it takes to build a foundation?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:35

Without question. Are too many people doing anything in performance without looking at what's needed? I play devil's advocate, I strip everything back for people. And I'm very honest, and I'm very critical when I need critical is the wrong word. I'm very honest in regards to telling someone, look, you're not going to do what you want to do. Prove me wrong by all means, but I think you're probably 10 to 12 weeks ahead of where you need to be. So people come in and have an event very soon, and I'm like, look, yeah, I think don't people don't give themselves enough time.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Okay, okay. Um is there almost a pressure now that if you're into fitness, you have to run? No. You don't see that. No, definitely not. I think I really want to ask you these questions because online I see a different side to what you would see working with such a different, I suppose, cohort of people that wouldn't necessarily be posting things online. The people that post so much about their fitness online are the people who probably are that other side of it, which might be forgetting about health. Do you know what I mean? So it's interesting to like the reel I'd won yesterday, it's gonna be way back now.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:35

So I did a reel recently on the effects of exercise, and I've my phone I put up late last night. It's just me in my car just talking about getting out and moving, and the amount of people that have sent me mates of mine, I haven't even opened them before coming in. I seen the coming though, they're like, Oh my god, Sean, your reel last night's really hit me. Needed to you know what I mean. I need to go and do something now. Talking about your parents, like it was the parents thing that got me um to go out and move a bit more. How I got on to that point. Um is the pressure to run? No, I don't think so. I think the pressure is the pre to move. I've gonna recently, or not gonna recently, I've recently looked at getting a stationary bike in the house just because I'd be at home more in the environment with the kids rather than having to go out and go on, going running. I remember going out, going, the kids were going, where are you going? I'm going out for a three-hour run. Now, I used to get up at before anybody was awake in there and I'd be gone. And I'd be coming back just when they were getting up.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:26

But even to get a home trainer into the house, I think it's it's a brilliant bit of equipment that you can get. A lot of times they become close horses though. So if you get if you get a stationary bike, use it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

That has to be a rule against like don't make it become a close horse. Max actually got one of those recently and it's linked to is it like Swifter? It's an unbelievable programme. Yeah, yeah. Swift, that's it. Yeah. Oh, so I'm mixing up with the Irish brand Swifter here. Yeah. Um, okay, another one for you. Do you think recovery has almost become a trend rather than an understood metric?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:57

In regards to ice bats and stuff?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

Yeah, sauna's ice bat. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:01

Unquestionable.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:03

Uh is the scientific data there to back it up. But the one thing I will say, and I'm strong on placebo, if it makes you feel better and you think it makes you feel better, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

And I think more so than the recovery side of things, all of the sauna locations, eye spots, all of that opening up around the country, it's the social element that people walk away from it feeling better. Obviously, most of them have like silent sessions as well. And sometimes people need that because they're in a chaotic environment every other hour of the day. So I agree with you there. I think it's it looks like something that's trendy for recovery, but I think it's more so there is there is definitely studies on them.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:40

Like the sauna stuff is unbelievable. Absolutely. I wish I had one at home. The ice baths, I'll uh I'll wait for more study to come out. I think a lot I think more bad can be not bad, but I think they're maybe overused. Now, look, when I was injured leading into Dublin, I used them a lot. I I felt it really ha helped me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:57

I haven't used them since. Yeah. I got into one recently, I got straight back out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

It's funny you lose the like conditioning to it, the resilience, that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:05

I got in. So West Park Fitness have a permanently chilled one. And I got me with a friend of mine and uh I got so much stick off to me. A few of us went in, and I literally couldn't last like seconds, you know. And they all gave me stick. And then over the weeks and months leading in, I ended up would end up people like you have to do a minimum of three minutes. Yeah. So I'd do three, four, four. I built it up to six where I would just be so cold I'd have to get out. And I say, I've lost I've lost the point of this. Yeah. And then the other day I got back in and I honestly, 20 seconds, I jumped out.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

It's crazy. But next time you'll get 30 seconds, and that's how it goes.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:37

Um, I already know what your answer to this I think is going to be. What's the biggest mistake runners make when it comes to nutrition?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:45

They don't fuel enough. They don't prioritize. Yeah. They don't think about it. And the fur the faster you want to get, the more like we can look at it from a perspective of any time, but I think one great if anyone's listening to this that's looking for a three-hour marathon, I think go from like a 310, 315 down to a sub-tree, like carbohydrate, is unbelievable as a priority. But I just don't think runners prioritize like you go out and drop 150 euro on a pair of runners, but you won't eat before you run.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

That's so true, actually. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:17

Make it make sense. Yeah. Your wins are much quicker to achieve a performance with thinking about your food than getting new runners.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:26

Thinking about your food and getting a gate analysis. Thinking about your food and getting the most trendy shorts or wearables. Just think about your fuel a bit better.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:33

That's so true. Bring it back to the basics. What about carbon-plated runners out of interest since you're on that?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:38

I have no idea.

unknown 1:08:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:39

I'm gonna stay in my lane on that one. People come in and they've like, will I wear my carbons to do the VO2? I'm like, look, I do not have a clue. Do whatever you're most comfortable to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

Oh, that maybe next time I'll go, I'll wear my carbons just to see. Right, we're nearly on to our final few questions, Sean. If someone listening doesn't care about running, okay, but simply wants more energy, what's the first thing you would tell them?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:01

Sleep.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:02

Sleep. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:03

How much sleep have you got?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:04

Like, oh I had a guy in, I've blown my mind. Rarely now I'm stuck. Um, I'm in the game so long. I'd have fellow in recently enough and he sleeps three hours a night.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:14

No.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:15

Three hours a night. And he was convinced there's nothing he can do to get more. And I was like, look.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

Can you say why? Like, was it work? Was it family? Was it just his head racing?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:27

All three. Okay. No, I wouldn't say head racing, just he he done he has slept for three hours a night since he was fourteen years of age because of the line of work that he's got involved in and has stayed involved in in terms of up incredibly early to service a particular uh I don't know what I'd say industry. Yeah. And then life's carried on and I'm like, you need to get your sleep back.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

That's so bad for your health long term.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:57

It's incredible when you look at the studies on it. So if you want more energy, I think sleep. Um your meal timing is important or your overall caloric range. So I think a lot of people go massive periods of time in not eating and then overeat. So in them massive periods of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

They do, and I feel like it's it's like uh boasted about then, which drives me absolutely wrong when someone says, Oh, it's like three o'clock and I actually haven't eaten yet today. I'm like, don't sing a song about that.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:26

Can't drive a car, no petrol.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:27

Oh, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:28

You know, so yeah, I think energy, sleep, fuel, meal timing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

They're all the most important kind of metrics. Right. Sean, we're obviously on shake the ground. So I ask every guest to give me a ground shaking confession, which is like a little bit more individual. It can be something so simple, or it might be something mega to do with your business or a decision you made when you were like 18. Confess to us, confess to us something you've done that really shook things up in your life.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:55

Done or doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:57

Either or.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:58

Because I have a big announcement coming this week.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

Oh, do you want to give it to us?

SPEAKER_06 1:11:01

No. I can't because it's not, but uh, there's a there's a there's a second facility for health matters about to be announced this week.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

Oh my god. By the time this comes out, it probably will be it will be announced.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:14

It will be out.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Yeah, so we'll see it on your premiums. Congratulations! That is a mega business move. Yeah, massive ground shake and shift for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:30

Yeah, so yeah, more machinery, more staff, but it's uh it's an opportunity, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

Can we get can we get like a hint? Are we talking Dublin? Are we talking about Dublin, yeah, it's Dublin.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:40

But it's in a very, very forward-thinking clinic around probably longevity and performance.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:49

Amazing. So it's all gonna link in really well.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:52

Yeah, it's it's massively.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

Oh, I'm delighted for you. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:56

That will be groundbreaking when I release it. Yes, yes. I only I only confirmed it on Friday, Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:00

Oh, fantastic! You must be like on a bit of a high then.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:03

Yeah, but there's a lot of work involved. I enjoy it. Yeah, I love what I do.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

Yeah, and you can see that like that radiates from you when you're talking about it, and I think that's why I was like, Sean would be the perfect man to get on to speak all things running kind of fitness and how to to fuel and go about all that. And I'm so glad we did.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:20

But even stripping the back, it's it's another part, going from one machine to two, going from two machines to three, like we now, I've six units now.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:27

You know, so stepping up and going to the next level.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:30

Each step up was shaking the ground.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:32

Yeah, um, and then it's like going with like the health insurance companies getting in with our big corporate clients, you know, little things like that. And obviously, I'm very, I'm very honest, I'm very I wouldn't say outspoken, but I I'm strong in my beliefs in in terms of what I say and what I do, and it can be groundbreaking for people when they apply the data.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Yeah, no, for sure, but like it was for me, and I said at the beginning, it really switched up so much in my life for me after going to see you with the stage I was at with my training, I guess. Um, okay, we're going to finish off with a quick fire. So, well it's supposed to be quickfire. I have a feeling we might go into uh some of these you might say not not my not my area, some of you might want to elaborate on. Most overrated supplement.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:15

Overrated supplement. Uh peptides, if they're a supplement.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

They're not good for runners, Nina.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:21

Ah, sure look. The studies on them are inconclusive, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

Placebo.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:25

Placebo, yeah, if they're placebo. It's overrated, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

Most underrated. Oh, hang on, electrolytes. Electrolytes!

SPEAKER_06 1:13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:32

We could have another episode about this.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:34

Electrolytes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:35

Just add a bit of salt to your water.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:37

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:39

And if you're not someone that's going out doing astronomical amounts of exercise, do you need them?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

No. Because you only piss them out, don't you? Does it put stress on your kidneys then?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:48

You question that. Or you could even here here's it, we can go even deeper then most overrated supplement is protein. Because are you gonna just pass that out in the URL?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:56

Yeah, that's true too.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:57

Now look, don't get me wrong, it does serve a purpose. I'm a big fan of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:00

But do you need as as many powders and stuff as we're taking?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:03

Yeah, probably not.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:04

Yeah. Most underrated supplement.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:06

Do you know the answer to that? Creatine, probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

Right, so I do and I don't. I bought creatine weeks ago and I look at it every morning and I still haven't started taking it.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:14

I'm a massive fan of it and have for years. I take it every day. I give it to my parents, I give it to my kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

Can that put stress on your kidneys?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:22

No, I think the the research on like it's the most research supplement in the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

I need to start.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:27

Everybody should take it. So for anyone young, cognitive development, anyone old, cognitive retention, and then anyone in between, performance, cognitive, everything. Everything. Look, it's up to you what way you want to take it. You can eat it, you can chew it, you can put it in a drink. I just draw it again.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

One of my questions was actually, is creatine for everyone? I believe. I believe.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

Caffeine before exercise, is it an essential?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:51

Essential? No. Is it a habit? Yes. Does it create does it make you feel better? Yeah, probably. I think the problem with creatine pre-exercise, it's done wrong. You need to do it about an hour prior. Caffeine. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what did I say? Creatine. Sorry. Caffeine. Yeah, caffeine. Like you see people drinking cans of caffeine to drink in the gym.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:10

Oh, I've spoken with that before.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:12

It should be drank.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Does my nut in.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:13

You should be done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

Like you know caffeine's only hitting your system when you're walking out of the gym.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:17

And remember, caffeine isn't an energy producer. Caffeine reduces fatigue symptoms or awareness. So your body suppresses the fact that you're tired. It doesn't create energy.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:28

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:28

So that's the biggest factor on caffeine.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

That's a viewpoint I've never heard of.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:32

Yeah, so it doesn't give you energy, it suppresses the fatigue.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:35

So while you energy drinkers in the gym, take heed of that.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:38

Yeah, so make sure, like I all day, every day when I'm testing, I just hear the can open, and I'm like, you should have drank that before you've got to.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:45

Yeah, no, that does try to do that.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:46

I would be uh creating an hour prior to training. If you are someone that's drinking a caffeinated drink, get it in then as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:54

Yeah, okay. Uh one fitness trend you hope disappears.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:00

None. They're all good. Have a positive impact. Trend though, like I don't know, some of the stuff people do is wild, isn't it? But I think they're all positive.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

The jigsaw.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:11

Yeah, isn't it? And I think each of their own as well, and that's something that I think we probably should. Well, it is something that we say, like just what because someone does something that's trendy doesn't mean you have to do it. Yeah. Exercise, we I do a program in schools. Uh we do a lot with uh girl schools. Uh four-class girls at the biggest age drop out in in all performance because they're developing, they don't want to get changed in front of their peers, they're conscious of moving parts. And I we try and create an awareness that the sport that the world pushes you to do isn't the sport that you have to do. I absolutely love this. So many different types of movement and exercise. Do you want to go to be a canoeist? Do you want to be a gymnast? Do you want to go and do karate? Do you want to play football? Do you want to play basketball table tennis? Whatever you want, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

We had a chat with was it Kieran Corrigan on his episode where we said like he felt not being part of the GAA when he was young, and I felt this too, like I felt left out as a result because I wasn't going to the training in the evenings, I wasn't even schooled to go to the match with everyone else, because I was no good at it. It wasn't for me. But had we even put through more types of sports or had our eyes open to that, like even running. If there was more running, I that would have been my sport. But all that was in school was G now a bit of basketball, but that wasn't even like my thing. Do you know? So I love that. That's so powerful that you're doing that. Um, biggest waste of money in fitness.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:32

Gym memberships that aren't used. Oh I know I wasn't expecting that to be. So going back to the story of my friend that texted me to say that they must start to exercise. She's also in the message. I didn't, I just pulled it down and had a look at it. She said she's still paying her gym membership because she's convincing herself that she'll get back to it. I'm gonna ring her on the way back. Do. Jen, if you're listening to this, you're getting a call.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

Like there's so much you can do from home. I started off my fitness journey at home.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:59

Took me weeks and weeks and weeks for set up there.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:01

Yeah, gym memberships that aren't used.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

Yeah, love that. One thing everyone should start doing tomorrow exercise. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:09

Um, just look, it's a great time of year. I love this time of year for talking about this conversation. Not that we live in this absolutely amazing country that's going to be dry for the next three months, but you don't melt in the rain. My when my son was six, he told me that one day. I woke him up to bring him for a run. He wanted to come for a run with me in Tyman Park. I woke him about half six in the morning. It was raining. I said, Jake, do you want to come run and put it's raining, son? He goes, Daddy, I don't melt. I said, Right, let's go. Oh my god. So uh the journey to start some form of exercise.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:38

That's just the cutest thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:40

Don't melt. Put his bike on, put a rain jacket on.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:42

But look at the influence you have, like leading by example.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:45

She runs, he did an 8k duatlong with me the other day. 4k on his bike, 10. 4K on his bike, 4K run. Yeah. So we ran by our estate, and my wife and daughter were outside to give him his bike, gave him a drink, and we went and he did a 4K on his bike then as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

Normally, go on.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:59

He did that nine. He did it at nine, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

Oh my god, that's incredible. That is incredible.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:03

So yeah, I think just starting, yeah. Don't put the bar too high.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

Don't compare your chapter one to someone else's.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:10

Yeah, just start small. I'm small, miss small.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:13

Sean, that was such a brilliant conversation. Thank you. I like I know we could have got into the nitty-gritty of the science in so many more. You do. Come here, if people want to find you online, where can they do so?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:23

Uh Instagram, the VO2 fella is my handbook or myhelpmatters.ie is our website.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:29

If someone did want to book in, is the website the best place to go or to call up?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:33

Uh both. So the website has the book and link, Instagram has the booking link as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

Oh, Instagram has it too, but yeah, so it's in our bio.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:38

Yeah. Um but look, uh, when you talk to the help the VO2 fella on Instagram, it's me. Yeah. There's no bot, there's no one behind the scenes. I love that. I do I deal with all the messages that come in to both the email and to um the Instagram. That's not gonna change.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:52

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:52

So I have to have that control.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:53

No matter how big you be regretting saying that when you have one million followers now.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:56

No, I won't. But you know what? Recently, so uh I outbound to everyone. So I send everybody a personal message. Every single person that follows me, I send them a message directly from me with their name on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:06

I love that.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:07

And the other day, like my followers are going up and up and up, and I said to Keila, I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna keep up with this. You know, like I can I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:14

I've stopped and always struggled with it mentally, but I just have stopped keeping up with them. But I cannot hand it over to anyone else because it doesn't feel right.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:24

No, but even like a voice note, I send voice notes a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:26

Me too. Yeah, and I'm like, I don't know if there's your cup of tea. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:29

Sure looking people like what? But I think it's great though. It does a lot, it makes people feel like it shows how passionate you are about what you do. That's what I and I am it makes people feel wow. Amount of people that said I would never have sent you a message if you didn't send me a message. Thanks, you know. Yeah, can I come in or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:42

But you know what? Also, like I know you love what you do because you love helping people, but I was told this line before in business, and I think it's so true. People buy people, people buy people for it, it's not products, yeah, and it is, it's completely down to that.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:54

Um that's where we don't even have to put this in because it's kind of a conversation, but that's where the brand I'm trying to develop now is my brand.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:02

Like I want to go international as Sean, they've the VO2 fella. But if you went onto my page two weeks ago, my name wasn't even on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:08

I know I think that's so smart. Like someone told me years ago, change your Instagram handle to your name because it used to be Nat Tilly. It like wasn't my proper name, and it just helps people connect with you as a person so much more. Sean, thanks so much, guys. Before we finish up, I want to take a moment to thank our partners at Amplify Media. Working with people who really get what you're trying to create makes all the difference. And Amplify don't just produce podcasts, they help you build something that lasts. So if you've been thinking about starting up your own show or taking yours up a notch, check them out at amplify.ie. And lastly, I want to thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, I'd really appreciate it if you could follow the podcast and leave a rating or review wherever you're listening, because that is what genuinely helps more people discover these conversations. I know we all listen, throw the phone away, get out of the car. But if you could take two seconds to do that, I would really appreciate it. And if something we spoke about today resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. Send us a message you just heard Sean say, he can respond to you. Send him a message. It's at the VO2 Maxfella.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:12

At just the VO2 fella.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:13

The VO2 fella. Sorry, yeah. So that's you can find Sean. And uh of course we are at Take the Grind Podcast on socials now as well. Or share this episode with someone that you think needs to hear it, because I reckon it's gonna be a lot of people listening going, my partner could do it here and this, my friend could do it here and this. So all we want at the end of the day is to impact someone's life, someone's life positively here, and uh I think that's them too. So until next time, someone could have you too. Thanks for anybody here. Thank you. No, and don't be afraid to take a