Episode 1 Toxic Masculinaty

Episode 1: Toxic Masculinity

When most people hear the phrase "toxic masculinity," they think of aggression, abuse, or violence. But what if those are only the most visible symptoms of something deeper?

In the premiere episode of Outside the Footnotes, Wendy and Klynn step beyond the headlines to explore one of today's most misunderstood cultural conversations. Using psychiatrist Terry A. Kupers' framework, which describes toxic masculinity as a constellation of socially reinforced traits such as emotional suppression, dominance, misogyny, and aggression that can become harmful to both individuals and society, they examine what happens when these behaviors are normalized rather than questioned.

Together, they explore the difference between leadership and control, confidence and arrogance, strength and domination. Through personal experiences, cultural observations, and thoughtful discussion, they consider how toxic behaviors often appear in subtle ways long before they become obvious forms of harm.

More importantly, they ask a deeper question:

If we recognize toxic behavior when it becomes abusive, why do we struggle to recognize it in its everyday forms? And if these behaviors continue to exist because they are rewarded, what are we rewarding without realizing it?

Rather than offering simple answers, Outside the Footnotes invites listeners to examine the assumptions, expectations, and social norms that shape our understanding of masculinity, power, and human behavior.

Because understanding a problem requires more than identifying its most extreme examples. It requires asking what keeps it alive.

We'd love to hear your thoughts on this conversation. Email us at outsidethefootnote@gmail.com and let us know what resonated with you, challenged you, or made you think differently.

Follow Outside the Footnotes on TikTok and Instagram for episode updates, behind-the-scenes content, and continuing conversations between episodes.

Thank you for listening.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Outside the Footnotes, the podcast where we explore the perspectives, experiences, and questions that often get overlooked in the conversations we're already having. Most discussions focus on the headline. Here we focus on the footnotes, the context, assumptions, and deeper questions that can change how we understand an issue. Before we begin today's conversation, I want to make something clear. This episode is not an attack on men, masculinity, or traditional masculine traits. We recognize that qualities such as courage, responsibility, leadership, protection, discipline, and resilience can be powerful forces for good in people's lives and communities. Our goal is not to criticize healthy expressions of masculinity. Our goal is to examine a specific set of behaviors that researchers have described as toxic masculinity, and to ask deeper questions about what those behaviors mean, where they come from, and how they affect our relationships with one another. Because here at Outside the Footnotes, we're always asking what's missing from the discussion, today we're toxic masculinity. It's a phrase that sparks strong reactions for some people. Its name, a real and harmful set of behaviors. For others, it feels like an attack on masculinity itself. For today's conversation, we're working from a definition offered by psychologist Terry A. Coopers, who described toxic masculinity as a constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia, and wanton violence. Cooper's was careful to distinguish toxic masculinity from masculinity itself. His argument was not that masculinity is inherently harmful, but that certain socially reinforced expressions of masculinity can become destructive when they encourage domination, emotional restriction, aggression, or violence. Rather than debating whether masculinity itself is good or bad, we're interested in exploring the deeper questions underneath that definition. What happens when aggression is mistaken for strength? When control is mistaken for leadership, when domination is mistaken for confidence, and perhaps most importantly, are these uniquely masculine problems, or are they human problems that we've learned to view through the lens of masculinity? Today we're looking outside the footnotes of toxic masculinity conversation to ask what might be missing, what assumptions we are making, and what we can learn when we dig a little deeper. Welcome to Outside the Footnotes. I'm your host, Wendy. And I'm Caitlin. So Caitlin, what was your initial thought when I told you we were going to be doing toxic masculinity for this first episode?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

I was really excited. I think this is a super important topic.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So when toxic masculinity comes up, what do you think people usually mean by that?

SPEAKER_02 3:10

So I think people have an image in their heads. I think what they see is like the traditional family, and I don't want to shoot down traditional families. People need to create the family that works for them. But when I say that, what I mean is that the woman stays home, the man goes to work, earns the money, but also that the man makes all the decisions, right? And the woman question those decisions.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Um what about that? Do you find to be toxic masculinity?

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Well, the woman really has no agency, she has no sake, doesn't have any financial independence, she's completely dependent on a man, she doesn't speak her mind, it's the man dominating.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Well I don't want to jump at the trad wife scene at all because I feel like in a very healthy masculine-feminine dynamic, that that actually could work very, very well for people, and I don't really see that dynamic as something I would necessarily consider toxic masculinity. Do you feel like the public's conversations are too narrow that we have the idea that that's something that would be yes?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I do think the conversation is too narrow. I think toxic masculinity is something that is pervasive, it is a whole ideological framework that men are entitled to dominate and control, that they can use violence to get what they want. I mean, look at society as a whole, right? Um, even on a larger scale. Look at like the endless wars. We're constantly bombing another country where um look at some of the legislation around, you know, even just women's bodies. And um, you know, in 2026, here we are, and there's still this sense that men are, you know, able to just dominate and control, be it on a macro scale, on a micro scale. Um, and then you know, that just perfades into our everyday life. Like, think about even as a kid, right? Like you hear throw like a girl, that's not a positive, right? Or man up. What is that like, you know, we have all these things that we don't even think about in our day-to-day lives that, you know, um, that I think are definitely a part of toxic masculinity. That they may not in and of themselves be toxic in that moment, but they build up to this whole ideological framework that man better, you know, woman less, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yeah, you're framing it as a societal norm that we've become so conditioned to that we don't even realize it's happening around us, which is very interesting way of putting it. Um, but I also at the same time, uh, no, no, not at the same time. I guess, I guess my next my next question is is if we're so societally indoctrined to it that there are things that we don't even recognize as being that, what do you think the average person sees or would view as toxic masculinity? Let's say on more of like a one-on-one basis, like from a personal aspect, not not a giant socially global um aspect, but maybe just like say you and I were hanging out, and like if I did something, what would I do to you that you would consider to be a toxic masculine trait?

SPEAKER_02 6:31

Um, it could be making inappropriate comments that I'm uncomfortable with. It could be touching me when I didn't give consent. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

So like basically what we're talking about is we're talking about it, it it's kind of socially, it's it's it's an expectation. Yes. I want to take it away from the whole idea that it has to be just abuse because toxic masculinity doesn't so let's focus a little bit more on kind of the domination part because I feel like domination doesn't always look like aggression. Right, right. I feel like it's reinforced. I feel like if you look society culturally, they reinforce that male domination.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

They reinforce that that idea that as a man you should you should be dominant, you should be superior, you should be alpha. Let me ask you this. Do you think that uh somebody's reaction and and jealousy, do you think that that that could be a reaction to jealousy? Do you think that that could be something that was considered toxic masculinity based on how somebody reacted? A reaction to jealousy? If somebody's jealous and they start treating you some way because they're reacting to the jealousy they're feeling.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Oh. Yes, I definitely think that if they especially if they, you know, maybe they tell you you can't do X, Y, and Z, you can't hang out with this person or that person, um, they start to control your life. Yeah, absolutely. I think that is definitely a part of toxic masculinity. They that they feel it's the entitlement that they feel that they have the right to do it. That is the part of the toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Okay, so now let's talk about what reinforces it. Right? So we understand that people do it, we understand that culturally speaking, it's something that we've become just completely and totally um oblivious to. A question in that moment when you're attracted to that person, are is the person viewing it as confidence or are they viewing it as toxic?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

I think in the moment they are viewing it as confidence. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Okay, so how how do you distinguish between the two? Because confidence is completely different. Masculine energy can be extraordinarily attractive to people, and there's nothing wrong with masculine energy. And confidence does come. It confidence comes with a divine mask or it comes with a divine feminine. There's always a level of confidence that's not necessarily toxic. So I guess what I'm asking is instead of giving the immediate attention because somebody's peacocking and they're they're being very confident, what do we do that allows it to continue on? That allows it and reinforces it and makes people think that this is something they have to do in order to be desired. Not the confidence, take that out. Move yourself into um societally speaking, what do we do? I I have like, would you like me to tell you my my opinion on that? Yeah. To kind of move you through. Societally speaking, I think that the people that do display the most toxic masculinity, whether it be a female or a male, because it exists across the board. Gender is not an issue. Gender is not what creates toxic masculinity. Masculinity is not being a male, masculinity is is is a way that we present ourselves, okay? Right. And I think that we reward, we reward those people.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

They're given the the higher positions, they're given the better, because I don't know if it comes out of fear, if it comes out of people just thinking that this is what makes somebody great, because people don't understand the difference between between um control and leadership, you know, the domination versus leadership. Like uh you could lead somebody and teach them, or you can control them and dominate them and tell them what to do. And I think what we do is we have a tendency to um reward those people. We have a tendency to put those people in places of power. We have a tendency to put people like that up on a pedestal. And I I just I guess what I'm wondering is it are do we do that because we feel like something's missing in us? Do we do that because we need somebody telling us what to do? Do we do that because we've just been so conditioned to think that that's what's normal?

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah, and I think we value those qualities. So even whether it's I mean, we we we respect, I mean, I hate to say this, we kind of respect the bully, right? It might, and it also might be out of fear, but there is a respect given to these qualities, even you know, domination, even if it's not healthy, we kind of respect that, you know. Um arrogance we see as confidence. Like we don't, I don't think we can always distinguish between like maybe the tipping point of where it goes from like maybe confidence to arrogance, from control, you know. And I think that is part of the problem. We because we value the masculine traits, even if they're not healthy, even if they're dangerous, because women we look at feminine characteristics as weak, right? And we don't want to be weak, people don't want to be seen as weak, typically, right? Um, look at like even like how many how many women CEOs do we even have in the United States right now? Like, I don't think it's a very high number.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

I don't is it know that answer, but there are some.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

There are some.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

I know how it's high, it's not a high number, but it's not a high number, right? No, but you think culturally, thinking back, right? Like we can go all the way back on this. I don't want to overstate stuff because I I did not go to get citations for anything that I'm not ready to say, so I'm not gonna speak facts. This is my opinion and my opinion only. Take it as you will, but from a very, very long ago, guys, we're talking like 1600s, give or take, I'm not sure, where we all of a sudden decided that the the femme was the weaker species as opposed to the a stronger species. We decided we had to push them down, and then it just became a cultural expectation. And I think that's exactly where I've been trying to pull this to, right? Because that's the deeper, that's the deeper question. And yes, as as females, we have been moving our way up and trying to gain rights, but at the same time, we haven't been doing anything to shut down the the toxic masculinity that continues to not only breed but be taught with our children. I do see some people that are raising you know their children a little differently, we're getting more into the leadership, more of the open mind. I think you came from like your boomers and your gen X and your millennials. We've seen that mental health has become more important as we're moving through. And I honestly think that the minute that we sit back and we start allowing people to express themselves freely emotionally and we start making that acceptable, well, excuse me, that we might see a decrease in the toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Um I do think that we do reinforce it. No, you're okay. I do feel like we do reinforce it though. And I I guess that's what I'm trying to get you to see. I I want to hear from you. I want you to look deep inside of you and think of moments in your life where something has happened where maybe no, it wasn't aggressive, maybe no, it didn't feel super icky, but at the same time it was like oh, whoa, wait. That was not good. That was toxic. And then I want you to think maybe because it wasn't what everybody considers my masculine toxicity to be, you didn't react in any way. You just let it slide, you let it move past. You you laughed it off, you said, oh, boys will be boys, or ugh that's just, you know, they they just don't know what they're doing, or you know, she's just trying really hard because she can't, hasn't figured out her identity. Like I want to know the times you've made excuses for it because that's really what I want to get down to the bottom of is why do we keep making excuses for it and then allowing and watering it so that it actually grows because it's not getting better, it's not getting better.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I that's really hard for me because I don't feel like I have let that slide. Um, my mom worked in a factory, um, and my dad was actually a teacher. Now he was a fiad teacher, but he was still in a profession where he was often the only man in the building. Um, my mom worked with mostly men, and she once she got in there, she learned every machine and she trained every man that came through there. So I guess for me, like I don't I don't let that stuff slide. I know that sounds really I mean, I'm not perfect, and there probably have been times where I haven't caught it, but if I do, I mean it's it's not okay. So my parents kind of broke the mold um in terms of just like traditional gender. So you're like, uh, guess what, Wendy? I'm better than you.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

I've never done that before.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

And I'm sure I'm sure like I have internalized ideas about masculinity and femininity that might not be the healthiest, but like um, but I I have seen like a break in that traditional kind of norm. So for me, like none of it's okay. I just um yeah, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

You're being but that's gender norms, but that's also kind of maybe but gender norms also leads to toxic masculinity because it gives in it gives an inflated sense of self, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Yeah, yeah.

unknown 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

So I mean, maybe you're onto something. So, like in my own home, I can't say I saw a lot of that. Um, but I definitely think in the wider world there's definitely a lot of toxicity.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

What about outside of the home? Has anybody ever said, oh, don't worry about it, pretty lady, I've got it?

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yes, or you've been told that you should see it. It's toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Or um toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

When I was, you know, a young girl, guys like leering at me just out in the open, like no kind of shades.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Toxic masculinity. So these are situations where it has happened to you.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Getting getting called a name because I ignored a guy's whistle or his cat call. Yes. Yes. So yeah, those things have happened.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah. And that's all toxic masculinity. So what did you do in those moments, Mrs. I'm better than you, Wendy?

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Um, I honestly like I tend to ignore that kind of behavior. I think that's how I don't reinforce it. So I don't I don't mean ignore in the sense of like No, I just like like if a guy tells me to smile, I don't smile. I don't owe anybody a smile.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

But complacency and that moment, right? Right. It's complacency. Do you think as a general as a whole that we've become complacent to the things that are not aggressive but are still male toxicity that could end up leading to aggression?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Okay, so I just this is like a little side note on that. I think it's a safety issue though, because if I were to say something, because as women, I don't know, maybe I was always taught like I had to assess my safety risk. If I say something back, they they could they could get violent, right? Now that's also toxic masculinity, right? This idea that I'm gonna challenge them and they're gonna get violent, right? Um, I mean, we even had an incident several years back where a nurse um in a large hospital, she was going out to her parking her car late at night, and a man approached her and she ignored him and she was murdered. And that's the reason he gave for murdering her, because she ignored him. That's that's like the penultimate of toxic masculinity. So like it's it's not so much complacency as like I think and it's like we are we as women are taught that if you challenge a man, you're in danger. And I've had situations where the very Yes, I I actually was.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Oh, back to the very beginning.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Yeah, yeah, and I actually had a situation once where I was working in downtown where I live, and I was crossing the street to get to the bus stop, and a man said something to me. I didn't even know he was talking to me, I just ignored it. He got up in my face in the middle of the street and was yelling at me. And I was like, it was terrifying. It was about nine o'clock at night. Here I am just trying to get to my bus stop, and this man is ready to do whatever he wants to do because I supposedly ignored him. I didn't even know he was uh addressing me. He's like, I said hi! You say hi back.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So, yeah, that could also be mental illness, too.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

You know what I mean? Well, I actually saw him the next day and he didn't do anything, so um it's probably scary to you after that because you didn't back down. I didn't, yeah, I didn't back down. That that was the one that was the one time I just stood there firm, like I didn't back down, but it was scary because you're like, what's gonna happen in the middle of the street at nine o'clock at night? Because I supposedly ignored a man.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, that can be scary. Um no, I mean it is scary. I'm not gonna say it can be scary. That was the wrong way to word that. Um, that is that is scary. It's very scary, but I mean again, I want to go back to the whole um where do we stop it? At what point? Where does it start? And where do we stop it, Caitlin? Because something as simple as saying, oh no, put that down. You're a girl, I'll do it. I'm a girl too. Like, what do you mean? I'm I'm the mask, but I'm still like, you want to put that bookshelf together? I'm gonna sit over here with a nice drink, I'm gonna watch you. I'll hand you the screwdriver. That's not that's not reinforced infinity, period. There's nothing wrong with masculinity. Being masculine, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's the toxic masculinity. It's the you can't like it's it's the no, you can't do that. You're a girl. It's the right why aren't you smiling at me? Oh, you should give me attention because I'm in front of you. Oh, I should be able to control you. I that's like that that's where we're we're talking about that. We're not talking about a man being a man. I think I think that masculinity in a in its purest form, I think is absolutely beautiful. I th I honestly I I honestly do. When it's not toxic and it's it's it's whether it's a man or or a masked woman or even a feminine woman can hold masculinity. And I find that it is extraordinarily attractive. Like obviously not the dudes, guys. Sorry. Not the right gender for me, but gotcha. You look handsome and it fucking looks good on them. When they hold a confidence that most people would go, ooh, ooh, that might be what you were saying earlier. It's the con they're confident. They're calm. No, no, no. There are some masculine, there are some masculine people that the confidence is gorgeous because the confidence is backed up with leadership. The confidence is backed up with genuine caring. The confidence is backed up with emotional security and understanding that emotional intelligence, right? So my my my my ask my ask to you is is why why why why do we foster whether it's in a man or a woman? Because there's a reason. Toxic masculinity is not gender specific. And I want to make that clear. And that's male presenting or a man, that seems to be the focus of what you're talking about. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I've seen some very femme women that exhibited toxic masculinity because they needed to be in control, because they needed to feel like they were on top and dominate, and it did not come out in aggressive forms. It came out after, because originally they present as very type A, very confident, and and it and it ends up it ends up turning into something that feels icky, even if it's not abusive. And that's really what I want to talk about. I want to talk about the ickiness that's not abuse, and I want to talk about why we sit back and we allow it to continue happening without calling it out just because it's not abusive, just because nobody's getting hurt physically, because I'm gonna tell you there's people out there that emotionally get hurt by it.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

And it and it happens within communities. It could be our community leaders, it could be it can be, you know, the your boss at work, it could be a coworker at work. It doesn't, it's not, it's not defined by just a relationship, a heterosexual relationship between a man or a woman or a masked girl with a a female. Oh, we got to take the gender out of it, we gotta take the idea of gender out of it, and we've got to make it more of a I want to think about what is the actual reason that culturally across gender lines, we feel like this behavior is okay and actually needed in order to be respected and successful.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

That's a deep question.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Um hey, this is outside the footnotes. We go deeper.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

It's I think it's just because we've uh we because we've allowed it. We've allowed it to we've allowed, we've allowed, we value these masculine traits, right, more than the feminine, and we've basically allowed them to run amok. And when we don't, and uh you're right. I mean, maybe I should have stood up at certain points in times and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

I was not telling you you should have done anything differently. I was trying to the what I'm trying to do is get down to the bottom of which you know, I mean, I know I know your answer. I'm just I want you I want you to say it. Because I already I know what you mean. I want you to say it. Because that's when we get down to the brass tacks of why it continues, is because from a very young age, all of us.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

It all starts childhood, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

We're all taught. And and you know, like I said earlier, it's getting better with the younger generations being, you know, pushed, you know, no, it's okay to have therapy. Therapy's becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more involved in therapy, but we're taught from a very young age to accept things the way that they are. We're taught that girls boys wear blue, don't rock the boat, don't challenge. Yeah. You're meant to be seen, not heard. Like this is kind of where I really wanted to go with it because I don't, it's not, it's not a male problem. And it's it's not a female problem. Right. It's a cultural problem, it's a societal problem. And I kind of wanted to to move into kind of like that deeper question, like, why? Why do why why maybe not why? Maybe not why it's there, because I think we all understand why it's there. I think my question is is why aren't we talking more about how it appears outside of what everybody just automatically assumes it is? Why do we take the small pieces of it that are still emotionally dangerous, not only to us, but to the people that we love around us, because like I said earlier, it could happen anywhere, it could happen at work, it can happen with your leaders within your community, with you know, in your relationships, whether it's a friendship. I mean, it could happen in friendships, it can happen in families, it can happen in co-workers, it's just every dynamic, entire communities, right? It can happen. So why don't we talk about those smaller things that nobody is standing up and saying, we don't like this? This isn't okay, and changing those. Why are we only talking about the big stuff? Like you kept going back to, oh, well, a girl will get, you know, she'll get murdered or she'll get hurt if she stands up. Like I get that, but what about the smaller ways that we can look at it from a smaller point of view? These smaller things that happen on a daily basis to us, we don't necessarily have to make a big loud noise about it, but we can effect a change by calling them out, recognizing them.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, I think though, too, many of the people who do call out all the abuses off, or well, all of the all of the things that we would label as toxic, get told, like, oh, you're too sensitive. Again, that's like a feminine characteristic, right? That's weak. You're you know, you're overreacting, it's not that big of a deal. People don't see like your thoughts become your words that potentially become your actions, right? So we all do. Oh, we all totally do it. We all do it. We all do it. So a funny sorry. No, I'm saying like that's our reaction when we when we point out the things that maybe aren't as bad. Oh, stop it. You're it's that's nothing. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Like, yes, starts from a very young age, so like maybe conversations like start like get maybe maybe look around you, see, see where you're seeing that that that masculine toxicity in your life that doesn't seem bad because on the the face of it, it's not aggressive, it doesn't seem overly dominant, right? But there's still a little piece of you that knows it's not okay, and we start saying, Hey, how about we not do that? How about that made me uncomfortable? That made me feel bad. Reframe the way you're talking to me, reframe the way that you approach me.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

When a boy does something and hard for a psychologist.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah. Or like when people say, well, boys will be boys after they do something that's inappropriate. No, that's that's not appropriate behavior. They can't do that. Because it's still there. I think it is there, and I think another piece of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

I think another piece of it too is because socially speaking, we've put so many gender norms on people. I think men, yeah, I think men are pushed. I I really do. This is I it's I hopefully not an unpopular opinion. I hope it's not because men are kind of getting a bad rap, and I know that there's a lot of them out there. Like, let's not pretend that there's not, let's not pretend like this isn't a dangerous world because we fostered so much male toxicity. But there are men out there that are good. There are there are men out there that are good, but the problem is that they're expected to hold in their emotions all the time. Yep, they're expected to provide, they're expected to be the best. All of these expectations from a very, very young age is placed on them. And I think that that can be overwhelming, and I think that that could also be a part of what's leads to that need for the toxicity because failure is not an option.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

It's not an option.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

And I feel even like when we say go societally, not just gender, but society, right? Societally, even with women, I feel like you could probably, and I don't know this, I haven't read any research on this. This is my opinion, okay? But I think you could probably take a lot of the women that exhibit really strong behaviors like that, and they were also raised that way. You can't fail, suck it up, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah, I agree with that. And I I actually earlier I did want to say that like the powerful women that we see, they they probably have been told to adopt those characteristics that you know we would we would see as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

They have to they'd have to I was raised that failure wasn't I was raised that failure wasn't an option. I was raised like you're gonna cry, I'll give you something to cry about. I mean I you know Gen X, it's straight your knees, go outside, suck it up, you're fine, act tough, show no emotion. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

So I maybe I I think it's definitely a discussion that can just go on and on and on. And I think I'd definitely like to hear other people's opinions about it as well, because I feel like even though we've discussed all of this today, like it it doesn't end because it's almost like there's more questions than the questions we started with. You could almost just keep asking questions about it. It's such it's it's it's a topic you could just go so deep in. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Absolutely, yeah. There's a lot, and it's interesting because like so, even so. I was kind of explaining my childhood, so maybe this is a little tangent, but maybe not. Um, but even you know, I do remember like my mother, so and these aren't necessarily toxic qualities, but just like the gender norms, like she would say, ladies don't swear, or your laugh is too loud, or and like like for me physically, even I'm not like a dainty little woman, like I'm taller-ish, um, I have big feet, I have a deep voice, um, I get called sir when I'm on the phone, and I don't even correct people anymore. So, like, once so, even like outside of the toxicity, if if you present out a little bit outside of the gender norm, people try to kind of push you back in. And my mom, who worked in a factory and worked mostly with men and dealt with a lot of crap, um still had a lot of those gender norms. So, like, and while the gender norms itself aren't necessarily toxic, they definitely can help perpetuate those toxic ideas and kind of prop up the system that is toxic.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

I think gender norms are exactly the problem. I think if you've got a little boy, let him wear pink if he likes the color pink. If he wants to play with a Barbie, play with a Barbie. It doesn't mean he's gay. Right. And if you've got a little girl that wants to roll around in the mud and wear, you know, bibs, let her. She's a kid. A kid's a kid. Right. Period. I agree. I agree. Um, you know, I work at construction, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

So you talk about your mom, and I and I see it. I obviously I'm a hundred yarder. You know I'm a masked lesbian from a mile away. Um, not because of, you know, I don't look extraordinarily masculine. Well, I don't know. I guess that's perspective. Um, but I definitely hold myself very masculine. I have have a very strong masculine present. Luckily, it's not toxic anymore. I got out of that by the time I hit 30. So yay me. Still working on it. Therapy is a good thing. I recommend to everybody therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy. Uh, because we all have baggage. But um there's a lot of that idea, right? So, like, even in my job, um, I'm a female. If I can't do it, I don't have any reason or part of being there. I should not depend on the men to do my job and get paid the same as them. So, like, but it's funny because while I'm at work, you'll see the guys, they'll be like, oh no, no, no, I'll get that for you, Wendy. Oh, no, no, no, no, I'll carry that for you, Wendy. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, I got it.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

If I can't do this job, I have no right to be here. Like, I I gotta perform right alongside you guys, and it's not it's not fair to them. And I I I I it's not fair to them, and it's not fair to me. We all need to be equal.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Does that make sense? Yes. I think yes, when you when you start when you start viewing each other equal, when we take away that mask that is our gender assignment norms that society tells us we have to be, and we just start looking at each other as equals, as human beings protecting each other and loving each other. I feel like we'd see some of that drop off, but I feel like we're so set on having this. There, there's there's this idea that we have to have some sort of structure to who we're supposed to be from birth in order to have value. Yeah, absolutely. I think I just went off topic, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 36:34

It's okay. No, but it it all plays a role, like it all is like, I mean, it's almost like a pyramid, right? So you got like your gender norms, then you got like, then you get into like the entitlement, you know, like it all builds up to what is toxic masculinity. It all it all contributes. You can't have you can't have you top, you you cut out the base, and then it's gonna start to topple.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Right? Yes, I agree. I agree a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

And unfortunately, I think one of the issues is like ideas are pervasive. Trying to hold an idea is like putting water in a sieve. Like you can't, it's just they and especially now with the internet, there's all kinds of ideas out there, be they new ideas, be there, be they old ideas. So like someone who's 20 can go and search the internet and find some really archaic, toxic ideas, and they can say, hey, I'm gonna adopt this. Why you would want to, I don't know, but people do what people do.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Well, you're talking about a very small percentage of people that that would actually do that. Most most people are gonna want to fit into the box that society tells them they have to live in. There's not a lot of people that are willing to jump out of that box, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Right, because there's consequences for that rejection, um, discrimination, all those things that if you don't fit in a box, you're going to experience.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah, yeah. I could see that, but I do think that if we don't break outside of the box, we're never gonna resolve the problem.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

I agree. It's just it's a process, and it's gonna, I mean, these toxic ideas have been around for a long time, and it's gonna take a long time to to do away with them. There's just a lot of there's just a lot of old ideas that are still out there. Just because we have newer progressive ideas doesn't mean that those old ideas are not out there and that some people don't hold to those old ideas.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Is it ideas or is it expectations?

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Probably both. I I think that and I mean that's that's a and that's a good point. Um, like I said, I do think we're moving towards more progressive, more open ideas and breaking these norms, but I I don't know. I think that some people I honestly think some people just like to be contrary and find an idea that goes against what what is currently out there. Talking about it. But like I think, right? But I think a lot of times we keep these old toxic ideas alive as we like it's like we progress and then it's like we regress.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah, but one step further, why why do we keep them alive? Uh well we can talk about an action.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

There's no action that doesn't come without a why. Because toxic masculinity includes entitlement, and people want to feel entitled to things. I think that the the I toxic masculinity, those who adopt it, have power. Look at look at our government, look at look at everything that requires power. So society rewards it. Society rewards it. So you're not gonna give up something that gives you power. We've all experienced it.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

There's been men out there that have experienced it from their fronts, their father, their co-workers. We all know what toxic masculinity is. So let me leave you with this. If toxic masculinity continues because it's rewarded, what exactly are we rewarding without realizing it? The aggression, the abuse, those don't start from nowhere. They grow from the smaller things we've learned to overlook. The cat call we walk past, the boy we excuse, the person we promote because they seem strong, when really they're just controlling. Our goal here is never to give you a final answer, it's to step outside the footnotes, look at what's being overlooked, and ask what might be missing from the discussion. Until next time, I'm Wendy. And I'm Caitlin. Thanks for listening, guys. Peace out.