James Nord- Founder Fohr

James Nord didn’t just build an influencer marketing company. 

He lived through the birth of internet culture from the inside. In this episode of Inspiring Futures, the founder and CEO of Fohr

It traces the path from early Tumblr obsession to building one of the most influential creator marketing companies in the world. 

What makes this conversation compelling is that it’s really about much more than influencer marketing. It’s about the transformation of culture itself.

James explains what it felt like to be one of the first people to understand that “following” would become a new kind of currency, long before brands, agencies, or investors took the idea seriously. 

He talks candidly about the brutal early years of educating clients, surviving on almost no money, paying employees with photography income, and slowly realizing that the internet was no longer a sideshow. It had become the main stage. 

The discussion moves from Tumblr and Instagram’s early days into the modern creator economy, unpacking why brands still misunderstand creators, why legacy marketers struggle with internet-native culture, and why companies like Nike can lose relevance while brands like Skims instinctively understand the new rules of influence. 

Along the way, James shares sharp insights on:

•  Why internet culture fractured the monoculture 
•  How algorithms changed influence forever 
•  Why “momentum” matters more than total reach 
•  The hidden tension between marketers and creators 
•  Why great creators often outperform traditional advertising 
•  How influencer marketing evolved from experimentation into one of the most powerful forces in business and politics 

There’s also a fascinating thread running through the entire conversation about “internet natives” versus traditional institutions. James argues that people who grew up deeply embedded online developed an instinctive understanding of digital communities that many large organizations still lack today. 

If you care about culture, marketing, creators, the internet, or how influence actually works in 2026, this is a rich and revealing listen. It’s part founder story, part history of the social internet, and part field guide to how modern attention really moves.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the latest episode of Inspiring Teachers. My guest uh today, James Nord, founder and CEO of Four. James, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Uh great to have you on the show. Um shall we start at what possessed you over a decade ago to start your company?

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Yes. I, you know, it all started with Tumblr. I um I had a Tumblr following early on. I was one of you know one of the most followed people on on Tumblr in the early days.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

And so let's go back a bit. How did that how did that all start?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

You know, I I um I think I mean honestly, I I stood in line and got the iPhone the first day it came out. Right. And that helps. Yep. And uh so we're going way back. Yeah. And um, you know, I was I was interested in having a blog. Tumblr came out, I didn't know how to code or anything, and so Tumblr came out, and you could have this really nice looking with with no, you know, and you didn't have to know how to code. And so that was appealing. And I started using it really just to keep my family updated, and then I started getting in more into photography and shooting more and and taking it a bit more seriously. And then, you know, I just uh I think one of those kind of early internet stories. Uh this is back when they used to do a lot of like when you signed up for these platforms, they would recommend users to follow. And so I got on a recommended user like list, and and you know, my following kind of exploded. And and um, and I was just walking around New York City with a camera, taking photos, you know, talking about you know, all my infinite wisdom at 25, uh, that people should be listening to me about life and and uh and marketing and and photography and music. And um and so you know it was.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

It was a scene you were sort of photographed? You know, that's just real life. It was just my life.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Yeah. And um, and so you know, that was something different because you had like tech bloggers and fashion bloggers and you know, people that blogged about certain things. But a lot of the kids on Tumblr, it was more just like you were the main character of your blog. And um, and you know, it was less like today's world of like photos of yourself, um, but it was certainly like you just trying to document your life and your your point of view as much as you could. So there, yeah, there was no specific focus really, although photography became a big part of the of the focus.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

And early on, you know, I was able to, you know, as that following grew, gain access to photography opportunities that I would never have.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

It was like a portfolio that you had in some.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

It was, but then all of a sudden it was like Oscar De La, I was shooting for Oscar De Lorenzo a lot early. And I understood I it was only because I had a Tumblr following, you know, they could have gotten a much more talented photographer in there to shoot. Um, but that was a signal for me of like, oh, this this is gonna change everything.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Like having a following is going to, and and again, this is like let's say 2009. I was starting to think like, well, having a following is gonna become a big part of what gets you opportunities, be it if you're a model, a photographer, an artist, an actor, you know, eventually a marketer. Um and so, you know, I started early on to see that like following was going to become a type of currency, um, and that people were gonna want to trade on that currency more, and that there was an opportunity to build companies to help make that easier.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Right. But did you was your was your kind of was your kind of original vision to use it to promote your photography? Was that where you started?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Or was it the the company? No, no, no, when you were doing the tumblr and you still did you really honestly at my I I moved to New York. My first job was in on Wall Street. I was a futures of commodities broker, you know, making 225 phone calls a day. Um and in the boiler room. And you know, my New York life, I kind of bounced around to some mediocre jobs after that. And my New York life was just not what I expected. I came here to be a like future leader of America, you know, titan of industry. And uh wow, that was not happening to me, you know. And so the blog early on, it was like it was the first thing in my adult life that was that went like really was going really well. And it all of a sudden I had entree into parts of the world I I I didn't. I I I always was interested in advertising. I wanted to work in advertising, I could never get a job in advertising. And but like once I I had this following, and this was way before I was even getting photography gigs for uh for my blog, but I was starting to get interviews to be a social media, you know, manager at an agency. Um because it was like, well, look, I have one of the biggest followings in the world. I know how to do this. And so um, you know, early on, yeah, it was definitely, I think the the motivation, I was less like, oh, I could be a professional photographer and more like this is going to change my life. And I could feel that like it was absolutely going to change the opportunities that I had access to.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

So then there's the transition to okay, I'm gonna, there's a business here. That seems like a leather huge leap.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yes. So I had I was really I was grappling at the time between like, do I go professional photographer full-time? So I was like making pretty good money just like shooting nights and weekends and taking days off from my day job, or do I start a business? And uh one thing I was like, I'm not an artist. I was pretty good behind a camera, but I started to meet like true artists. And um, we were just talking about Joe Greer, who shot my wedding. And I was like, oh, that's not me. I'm never gonna be one of the best in the world at this. This is not my path. Um and at the same time, I also started to believe more and more that if we could bring data and analytics to what me and my friends were doing on the internet, that this could be a like a really interesting business. And it could, this could be something um worth spending more time on. I was I had done a bunch of small side projects. I had a photography magazine, I had a record label, I had a necktie company, I had a cycling apparel company. Um so I was always doing these little projects, but this was the first idea that felt like, okay, this is this is something we could raise money for. This is like potentially something bigger and more interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

So what was your what was your pitch then back back then?

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yeah, the pitch back then was uh data and analytics to this space that if we could, you know, if we could create a tool that could help brands verify bloggers' followings, um, that they would pay for a tool to do that because we believed that more and more brands were going to want to work with um with these individuals. And look, I it's funny because I look back, I was 26 when I was like pitching pitching this to investors, investors, like our you know, first investor was a dentist. So it's this is not, you know, I was not rolling into a metal republican. Exactly. Um and look, we can get into that whole thing. A part of that was uh like uh a bit of I think um traditional investors were just not interested in this space, they didn't understand it. Um but I remember talking to one like traditional VC and they're like, Do you think this could be a hundred million dollar a year business? And I was like, Are you fucking crazy? Um it would be like easy for me to sit here and say, like, I totally saw all of this coming. Like I absolutely felt like this was going to be a bigger part of the world, but I was also 26. I had only worked at pretty small, if I'm being honest, like not incredibly impressive organizations. Um, I had never done this before. And so I felt like this is an interesting idea, and I am absolutely the right person to try and build this company. And those two things I believed like fully, and I knew I could like do something interesting in this space. And so like we went out and raised, you know, a little bit of money to say, let's bring data data and analytics to this. Um, and we'll create a SaaS platform that does that and allows people to like a directory that lets them find these people as well. So that was the early pitch.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

What was the biggest problem that you came across that you didn't anticipate?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Nobody knew what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

It was just like like this, it was like alien.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah. I mean you were just kind of like early and I mean to say we're early is a is an understatement, honestly. Um I mean, you gotta like it's hard to remember, but like back in those times, like it was pretty weird to post stuff on the internet. Like that wasn't something normal, well-adjusted people did really. Um and so, you know, it was it was a detraction and and a positive for us, I suppose. I spent a lot of the first two years teaching brands what influencers were, why they were important, how this might fit into what they do. And a lot of them were happy to take the meeting. Ultimately, what was difficult was that nobody was shopping for what we were selling, you know. Um, they weren't like, oh, we're out here, you know, figuring out what influencer platform we should uh we should, you know, sign up for because there was one, it was us.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Um but um so yeah, that was you know, that was a big so it was like two years, two years of of of knocking on doors and taking meetings and educating people and saying yeah is a thing. And then what happened? Then what was the kind of moment? Was it was there a moment where was it a technology?

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Was it I think the the the hot people game? Like literally the Kardashians, the traditionally beautiful, cool people that had status in the world, like people who had traditional real status started coming onto these platforms, yeah. And now it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a bunch of like internet nerds that were like doing something, um, and like, you know, generally like interesting little rejects and and weirdos, but like it was just like, you know, the you know, if you think of it as a high school, like the football players and cheerleaders signed up and started using Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

And was was it do you remember when the when it what was the was there one was there a moment where it sort of I think or somebody who did it who came along?

SPEAKER_02 12:06

I'm sure there was, and I I I can't remember exactly now, but I think that with like with the traditional, you know, like people that were already had status inside of culture, with them joining Instagram, especially, all of a sudden culture started to happen in these places. Like it it went from a place where you would talk about what was happening somewhere else in the world to like things in culture were starting inside of these platforms, you know, as simple as like early memes that you might have seen, you know, Grumpy Cat or something, something stupid and innocuous like that. But like all of a sudden, inside the fabric of everybody's everyday life, the internet was showing up as in a way that in a way that like a sopranos finale might, you know, of just like everyone's aware of it, they're talking about it, and it's having this subtle impact, and people aren't totally clocking, like, oh, I'm I'm I'm like I'm able to connect with a total stranger about something on the internet just by assuming that they maybe also saw it. So I think that that started happening more.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And and so that's that's like meme culture, internet culture becomes popular culture. What and what date do you think what date we're talking about here?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

2015 was a big turning point.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah. Yeah. And is that when you start getting phone calls and start people say we need to talk to you, we need to, we've got to do something here?

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah, like if you even just looked at like early revenue numbers, we did like 250k the first year, then 500, then like 1.2 million, doubling, then then four, then and then you know, so then it it just started like you know, um, ratcheting up quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah, so you're just you just you're sort of following, and and is that like now it suddenly becomes a problem of like keeping up, right? Because because you're waiting you've been waiting for two years, and then suddenly this thing starts, the accelerator pedal comes down, and you're like, yeah. Yeah, you gotta hire people, you gotta hire people, you're gonna bigger place.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

It's like suddenly absolutely, absolutely, and competitors are coming in, and there's you know, um, yeah, it was all all started to move quite a bit more quickly.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

So, what did you change when you saw that happening? Is it bringing in people? Was it getting away?

SPEAKER_02 14:46

You know, the big thing was we um that's when we launched the services side of the business. So we were just a technology platform. And uh ultimately 2015, yeah. We increasingly would get on these calls and we give people a demo of the platform, they'd be like, This looks amazing. Can you do it for me? I uh we don't have the expertise, we don't have the the bandwidth. And is it what we're doing?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

What is doing it for me?

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah, run run the campaign. What influencers should we work with? What should we pay them? Can you execute the whole thing? Strat what should our strategy be?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

You know, uh so how did you feel how did you feel about that? Because you'd originally come in and said this is this is a data business, and now and now you're an agency business. Yeah, how did you feel about that? Was that a was that something it was natural? It was like, of course we had to be that, or was it something that you had to convince yourself you wanted to be doing this?

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Honestly, we were in a bit of survival mode. We had uh uh again, we we raised a little bit of money, and then I thought we would keep raising, and and venture capitalists were not interested in this space. And so we had kind of run low on money. I spent 18 months with the with the business's bank account under five grand and like five five people on payroll. And so I was literally, I was literally like, you know, because I could still get a good yeah, I could still get a good day rate as a photographer. So I was like shooting, and then I was paying my employees with my photography. Oh my god, um pay. And so um all of a sudden a brand says, Hey, what if we gave you 75 grand and you helped us run this campaign? And I I saw a path to us funding the business, not just like the core business and growth, but like also continuing to build technology without having to raise money. And and so it so that was one part. The other is like I felt like that's where the most interesting problems were to solve. How much should you pay someone? Who should you pay? How do you know if it works? How do you brief them? How do you do content review? And so I felt like the only way to really understand that was to do it. Uh, and so we we went for it and and um, you know, that part of the business started growing even more quickly then.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah. So what did you what did you need to do? What did you need to bring in? Who did you is it was it all about bringing people? Was it about changing? That sounds like an experience.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah, you know, I mean, I I I the first campaign we ever did, uh, I think the client ended up canceling it halfway through. And they were like, sorry. We had no idea what we were doing. And it's not just we had no idea what we were doing, no one like there was no framework for doing what we were trying to do. And um, yeah, we didn't hire anyone new. I, you know, one day one of my employees came in and was like, I just had breakfast. This brand wants to give us 50 grand. Um I mean, completely honestly, there was a couple of investors we needed to pay off, and like we really was like that money was a lifeline. And I was like, let's do it. Um and and we just figured it out. And so, you know, uh we had some we had some bumps in the beginning, but then uh we very quickly got quite good at it. Now a few years in, we realized like, oh, we really need to bring some people in from advertising, we need to bring some real account people in. Um we need to build some, you know, we need to build quite a bit of technology here. Uh and so like as that became a bigger part of the business, we realized that we really needed to invest to uh to provide the level of service we needed to, especially as again, we started working with like, you know, being a pretty small startup, and it's one thing to sell a multi-billion dollar brand a piece of technology. It's another to run a campaign for them. And so like that was a big lesson for us when you start like, you know, working with uh LVMH and they are all buttoned up and they have their total way of wanting to work and the agencies they're used to working with. And so that was there was definitely some learnings in there.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Yeah, yeah. Well, you can you can get away with it for a little bit, right? Because they they they're sort of like, okay, you guys are a different sort of breed, and that's kind of why we're working with you. But after a while, you you know that runs out, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yes, absolutely. And like, yeah, I mean, I we absolutely had the story early on of like, you know, we churned out some clients that like we just, you know, we were we were also pushing it, pushing the like boundaries constantly of what was possible. And I think sometimes we like we mistimated what was feasible and possible beyond timeline or or what we could get somebody for their money. Um, but again, all of those, all of those lessons, um, you know, eventually, you know, as we were a year into running these campaigns, I felt like, wow, we're really like, there's no one better in the world at this than than us. This is a really interesting thing we're doing. And and uh and again, that part of the business just started exploding.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

What were the what were some of the things that you you learned there that you still kind of are still true today, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Um it's a good question. Uh what we learned then that was still true. Like one thing to constantly remind myself is and our clients is that we are working with this person because of their point of view, because you know, they through their storytelling and through their content, like the the group of people that follow an influencer, they don't exist together anywhere else in the world, except that one place for that one person and to then hire that person and pay them a bunch of money and try and control everything they do and strip out their personality, it just doesn't make any sense. And of course, another part of that is realizing they are naturally talented at this at creating content and connecting with people doesn't totally mean they're advertisers, and there are things we can also teach them and and and uh and principles we can bring to that.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Do you think your Tumblr experience was really hugely helpful in understanding those people? Like what I think because I mean I think that you you'd you'd been there and experienced it yourself. Okay, yeah, admittedly it was earlier and it was a different time, but you were sort of a you were an author of something and you had a follow. Following and probably it's presumably over time you sort of felt you had a responsibility of some sort for your audience or you had some relationship with that audience.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

So having been through that, you know, I think we earlier talked about like that inside the internet kind of mentality is fundamental.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah. So like ethnogenesis, right? That like that you're from the internet. That is that is the place that has formed who you are. Absolutely. Like that is that was so important. And it's the you know, it's the it's the now, gosh, almost 20 years of daily posting and consuming on the internet. It it builds a muscle and a and a you know a understanding of what works, what doesn't, you know, what's interesting, what's not, that that you can't get otherwise. I think my personal experience, I was, you know, found it really interesting and satisfying how much impact you could have on people's lives from afar. And like, you know, I I had people write some really nice things. I met some amazing people who who who said I had some kind of impact, you know, something I wrote, like something innocuous or whatever, but they would like mention it years later. Oh, that post you wrote, you know. And um God, you know, I thought like, wow, if if a piece of content convinced someone to quit their job or move to a new city, selling them moisturizer is gonna be a piece, you know, like sell them fucking moisturizer all day. I get this person to quit their job. Um and and so I think that belief, and that's like the ethnogenesis thing. It's like I felt that, I I felt that, I saw it. I all I needed to happen was that more people spent more time on the internet. That was the bet that I didn't know if if I didn't know it was going to happen. But if it did, if more people were publishing and consuming, then more people were gonna have this parasocial relationship. They were gonna feel like they knew people and um and that this was going to be a huge part of people's lives. Because I just it I was I was so addicted to it. I mean, I was so passionate. It it was absolutely the biggest thing in my life was was, you know, being on the Tumblr and connecting with people and creating content. And and it it just, you know, I think also being I tell this to my team all the time, um, you know, that like uh especially in the early days, that it's unlikely in your careers again that you will be so early in something that has such an impact on the world, and you will be at a company that has a chance to actually shape it. And and that's like really unique. And I think again, what was important about being part of Tumblr early then was you know, when there were, you know, 10,000 people in the world that were like really doing this stuff, being a part of that. Um you know, there's just no, there's just no replacing that. Um yeah. I mean, you know, it's like I have, I have, I'm the 11th hundred person that signed up for Instagram. Well, you know, it's like kind of kind of crazy. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

You think how many many have gone have come come along since? Yeah, amazing. Dillions, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you were always, but you were always you kind of saw it. You saw it early, you saw the iPhone early, you saw Instagram early, you saw it all. That was all part of being in the world at that time. You of course, of course, you signed up for Instagram because who you were connecting with, that's what they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yeah, and it was it was true, like maniacal. I was obsessed. I it was just so fun. It was again, it was such a release from what was a very disappointing early 20s experience in New York. And and um, and I felt super fortunate to to be there. And you know, maybe if I was 15 years older, that would have been AI and I would have been in that community. Um, but at that time in New York, like it was it was these social early social platforms, and yeah, it was a it was a blast.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

So when you look to hire people, did you look to hire insiders? Was that who you were looking to hire? Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yes, and still uh we still like you have to be chronically online. You just you can't, you know, it's like learning a new language.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

But do you do you think also like I always thought it was like the language is changing all the time, so you kind of do do you believe in that too? Is like yeah, or the multiple languages? How do you see it? Do you see it's like certain people who understand certain dialects had yeah?

SPEAKER_02 27:25

I mean, there there is no, you know, that that's such a big impact of the internet is like fracturing that monoculture, yeah. And yeah, look, I don't there are so many subcultures I don't understand, but I think you become like a anthropologist almost, right? And you can you can parachute into these subcultures pretty quickly and understand them. I think that's something that like being being of the internet helps you do is like if I if I went to like crust punk tick tock right now, I like give me 30 minutes in crust punk tick tock, and I feel like I'm gonna I'm gonna have an understanding of that community.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

I was listening to Taylor Lawrence talk to this guy about um skibbity toilet or whatever it is, you know, and it was so fascinating the story. These ex-paramount guys in Hollywood bought the rights and they're messing this thing up. They're messing it up big time because they don't get it. They think they can they think they can buy a property and do a Hollywood. Oh, yeah, we have the property, we can we can syndicate the show, we can, and the community they don't get it. The community is like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

It's yeah, it's a great example of like there's people who get it and think it works in a certain way, and then there are people who just don't understand it at all.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Yeah. And it and you know, you you bring up a good point too, because while I feel confident in my ability to like surf the like, you know, kind of surf the map of the internet effectively, one of the reasons we've launched predictive and we've gone down this path of like creating these mathematical models is I started to feel like this is getting too big. I can't, I can no longer hold it all in my head and understand what the hell is going on. And I mean, you know, and part of it is is our like our lizard brains, like inability to even understand how big this is, right? Like a billion people on Instagram. Well, that's and that's looking at 10,000 accounts every day for 273 years to see them all. Um that's a billion.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah. 10,000 every day. I was talking to someone at Google who spent seven years at Google, and she was talking about exactly that thing. It's like you see you see the interface to Google, and then you think, oh yeah, that's why there are 4,000 people at Google who look after plumbers.

unknown 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Right. No, I mean that's extreme. That's extreme.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

No, but it's the it's the vast scale is in incomprehensible. And because we come up with it on such a personal level, we don't see the doubt.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Because and again, that you know, to then maybe that leads in a bit to these models we built, is that one of the issues is marketers thinking their version of the internet is the internet, and so they're like, This person is influential because I think they're influential, and my friends think they're influential. And that's that's not that's not meaningless. There is a signal there, but by no means is it comprehensive.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And there are you, are you your audience? Right. Are you your audience? Yeah, you mean no, probably not.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

No, yeah. I mean, uh because everyone's you know, as you said, it's changing, it's changing so much. I I I I race bikes in New York and I um I did like many cyclists in the last few years, I was like, I'm gonna run another marathon. I want to, I'm gonna get into running. Uh and you know, so I start running, and then all of a sudden, what's what's my Instagram feed filling up with, you know, is like running, running content, you know. And then I get a new car and all of a sudden it's a lot of car content. And so it's like to your it's it's it's fluid, it's not fixed, and it is again, it's so big and it's so changing, and it's it's increasingly so driven by these algorithms that uh I think what a lot of marketers don't want to admit is is they've lost the ability to effectively navigate it all on their own.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, I mean that makes sense. So um just talking about data, I was always interested in the shapes and movements of these communities. Like you take Reddit, and you can you can do a map of Reddit, you can do a map of these discussion boards, and you can it has a motion to it, right? Because people move in and out and then they start other ones. I always thought that was interesting, and I can't remember how long ago, it must have been 10 years ago. I got I went up to Carnegie Mellon, and someone there had some kind of data tool, and they were they were they were looking at these clusters of communities, and uh the thing that blew my mind was in the intro, he's like we're working for a ton of brands and agencies, and then hush under under his breath, it was like, Oh, yeah, we're doing some work for the CIA. So at the end, at the end of the hour, yeah, can you show me anything? And he started pulling up these maps of these uh veterans' communities, uh, you know, post-Iraq. And he was going, he was flagging and then going, these are Russians, these are Russians pretending that they're American veterans, yeah. Oh, that's we're we're in a whole new world now, yeah. Right? So this yeah, this say what you know from manipulation to this the the sort of naive world that you went came from to come to like the public fights between internet celebrities, the celebrities, you know, um Mr. Beast becoming just not right. You know, you you've gone from you've gone from the grumpy cat thing being being a sideshow, like, oh that's cool, to this, it is the show.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Yeah, I mean, again, like you need only look at the last presidential race. I mean, the there is there is likely no more consequential marketing like battle than the presidency. Yeah, and you know, the winner leveraged social better and more, outspent dramatically, but you know, it wasn't it wasn't all of it, certainly, but uh but social was a big part of that story, and and I think, you know, uh as Trump does, we we forget that very quickly because of all the crazy whatever things that are happening all the time. Um but you know, that that yeah, it goes from Grumpy Cat to winning the presidency in in 20 years, 15 years is is pretty wild. And again, it's I think for me that was a moment where it's like if if you no longer believe that this is significant, the thing that you yeah, you know, then like you're just you know, you're you're you're unfortunately the dinosaur fighting with you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

Dinosaur. Right. Yeah, that's basically it, what is what you're basically what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, and you know, it's it's it's come a moment where the generation the generation of marketing leaders are the socially aw they're socially adept, right? They they they know this. I mean, maybe they don't know it in the finite detail, but they're not they don't need to be convinced anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yes. And that's a big change. We're no longer we're no longer going into organizations saying, well, this is why influencer is important. Yeah. You know, this is why you need to pay attention to it. That that you know, that luckily is is not a conversation we need to have anymore.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

So, what are the conversations that you are having that that that still I mean obviously I think there's the the thing you talked about at the beginning there was this idea of they they have a following, they have an they have an authorship, they have a perspective, and that's them, and you and that's sort of part of the deal, that's why you're paying them the money, and then there's the force, well, we want them to say this, you know. Yeah, it's the the balance between the influencer and how they naturally that's a constant. And how do you how do you how do you do that? How do you how how do you what you know what's the is this about dialogue and relationships and understanding people and understanding them?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

And we we want the influencers to feel that I think you know it actually ties in nicely with a lot of the conversations we're having, which is how do we scale this? We need to do 10 times as much. And so how do we make the influencer feel like it's a relationship, not a transactional, you know, and not a transactional one. Um but how do we do that efficiently? And and how do we get our key points across? You know, because often if you're a brand and you're paying to, you know, you're you're paying to have your product talked about, you you're doing that because you want them to focus on something that if you weren't paying them, they probably wouldn't focus on. You know, you could look at this pair of glasses and say, like, well, I bought these glasses, I think they're great, whatever. They might want you to say, well, these are you know, these are made in our atelier in London, and you can completely customize them and do totally bespoke and we use all these.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

There's a list of messaging that they want.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

There's a list of key messaging, right? And and so we we often to boil it down and make it simple. We tell influencers like we try not to give a bunch of key messages, but say, what's the key takeaway? And if the key takeaway is like, you know, this is like British craftsmanship, for instance, and we give them all of the reasons why, then we're like, you tell your audience that story in the way that makes sense for you. Um, but that's what we want them to walk away with is that. Not they might be like, oh, this is like a British Warby Parker, right? But the brand might be like, that's not the that's not the story we want to tell. We want to tell a craftsmanship story, we want to tell a quality story. Um, and so that key takeaway helps us differentiate this is you know, this is what we need an audience member to walk away from this post knowing.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Yeah. How do you how do you know? How do you know success? How do you know what sucks what success looks like? Because you've got the audit trail on the followers, but then how do you know about success and brand? How do you measure success on the on a brand level?

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Oh, you know, we look yeah, of course, we're looking at like a bunch of different metrics, and we're looking at viewership and engagement, and we're looking at bottom of the funnel conversions and things like that where we can. Ultimately, you know, if if if the conversation goes more to bottom of the funnel, I'll I'll often be like, okay, let's like what's the last new brand you became a customer of, and they'll say, and you'll be like, Tell me how'd you hear about them? I'm on the internet. Okay, so like walk through that journey, and you realize, like, yeah, so much of this journey was experienced was influenced by what I saw on the internet. And of course, my last click was not wiping up on an influencer's Instagram story and purchasing it, right? And so I think our clients now that's been again a nice differentiator as this space has evolved that like there is a belief that they know it's important to be part of these conversations, even if we can't fully, you know, like a full attribution to the impact of influencer, they know it's there. Um and so, you know, for us, we think what's the one thing we have the most control over, it's how many eyeballs did we get inside the the demographic groups that you're going after for the amount of money you paid us? And that's why we we optimize around that metric because on these social platforms everything is downstream from views, right? And you know, an ad can't work if somebody doesn't see it.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Right. Exactly. So what about what about the can you can you can you plant a seed anymore like you used to be able to and watch it catch fire and then decide how to invest and where to invest? That used to be sort of back in the day, you could see if things are working. Uh and there was a sort of a chain. Yeah. Uh or is that just a different type of? I mean, there's sort of we need influence because there's like we need people to be part of our campaign. That we have a campaign, we're doing this, this needs to be part of it. But then there's the launching, we're launching something, we've got we've got a new idea. We think we need to are people still doing that anymore? Is that still part of like how people think about the world? That there's if we can if we can influence, if the in we can influence the influences and get them, then we might have the ability to sort of see it cascade, or is that old is that old thinking?

SPEAKER_02 42:16

I I think that it doesn't work at scale anymore. Yeah, because of the algorithm. Because of the monoculture.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah. I mean, even if there's very few things that can do that.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Yeah, because there's no one, there's there's no universal celebrity anymore.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yep. Everything everything's in the narrow Yeah. I mean even in your narrow, even if you look to something like Soccer.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

There's still a hierarchy, right? You still you can still plan a strategy in soccer that says, we don't want to pay, we're not paying for Ronaldo. Right. Yes. And so I think that's how you gotta look at it.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

You've got to look at your your community, your vertical, and you gotta understand, you gotta understand how the dynamics work in that you may not, yeah, you may not be able to just win fashion by working with, you know, getting ex celebrity as your global ambassador. But you could, you know, you could win in, you know, Gen Z professionals in New York City, potentially by getting the right mix of creators to to talk about the brand. And like you definitely see that. So like you can, in some ways, it's really exciting for marketers because you can be so much more surgical. Yep in in where you're showing up and how you're showing up. Frustratingly, um it just doesn't it doesn't translate a Across communities as well as it used to. And so you have to do that, gets back to the scale question, because you have to then do a lot more of it than you used to, because you can't just, you know, get the right celebrity to be a spokesperson. But tens of millions of dollars is spent.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

So when you're when you're looking from a brand perspective, you're looking at the communities that brands serves and working out that way. But there are and then you're paying $350,000 for somebody who has the path that you're paying that big money because those people are the but one of the very few that actually crosses.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah, I think sometimes when working with one person that's really that's really big, often what we're doing is we're looking at that community and saying, okay, we have both reach and frequency goals, you know, that we have to hit because we need to get people's attention here. And so we're trying to get you know Gen Z professional women who are interested in fashion in New York City. These 20 influencers do a good job of reaching that community. This really big influencer is like the leader of that community. Now let's now we have a fighting chance at making a real difference in that space across that that portfolio of people. It's not just about the single creator. It's it's how does all these creators kind of play in with each other and support it? Because I think increasingly on the internet, which the feeling you want to create is that like, gosh, I'm I feel like I'm seeing this everywhere. You know, and we see and we see this in the data that actually like momentum is often more important than total reach. So the feeling that week over week, I'm seeing this brand more times than I was the week before.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

And how do you and how do you and how do you measure? How can you measure that?

SPEAKER_02 46:01

We measure it by uh looking at how many mentions the brand is getting. Simply like looking looking at a and saying, okay, we need to, we've got a plan here over the next three months, and and we want this to ratchet up over that time instead of just blasting everything in one week and kind of doing like a a bomb of content. Yeah, we want this to ratchet up, and so it it feels inevitable when you're just like, God, I need to check this out. I'm seeing it everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

What about what about brands that have messed up or brands that just just aren't they they they kind of they don't have the cachet that the you you just can't get people behind them? They I mean obviously people will do anything for money, but there's something it's back to that point that once a brand sort of messed up or it's reaching a certain point, it's like it's hard to get it to be credible, it's lost. Yeah, do you find you do you find that?

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yeah, I mean, I think we definitely is that thick of the big mistakes. Um one doesn't even have anything to do with influencer, it's just that like increasingly in the modern world, marketing doesn't do as good of a job as it used to solving product problems. And like if you have great marketing and a ship product, it's it's harder to win than I think it was 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

You get found out really quick.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah, and uh people have so much choice and there's so much more informed, and the internet exists. Um another one is is brands just not having an understanding of themselves. If you know Walmart wants to get into fashion, fine. But then they go work with a bunch of really wealthy creators in in New York and LA, places where there isn't even a Walmart, essentially. Um and it just doesn't, everyone just looks at it and they're like, this is so stupid. This is not, you're not a you're not a Walmart customer.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

No credibility.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

No credibility. Um and I think the last part of it is I think of like the brands that screw up are the ones that just have continued to ignore the space overwhelmingly. I find it's the brands that are most effective in the traditional advertising. Nike is an example. I think Nike influencer strategy basically is non-existent. Um and they should be dominant in influencer and creator.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

And why is that because of a mindset or yeah, it's a total mindset.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

They don't believe in influencers, they're uh they're for athletes, yeah. Fine, but I can respect uh like a philosophical belief. I think unfortunately the tone is is more one of not respecting what creators do uh and saying, look, this is not real. We we again we work real place, but increasingly, even in sport, you know, as I got into running, I didn't go follow pro runners, I followed running influencers who actually told me stuff about training and and reviewed shoes and you know gave me tips and were more attainable for what I was doing. I don't have time to do two days with track workouts, and so you know it was interesting getting into a a new kind of subculture and realizing like yeah, the the pro athletes are still influential in that like when they're competing, they show up as a huge. Yeah, but it's it's different, and Nike will continue to lose. Um, I'm not surprised they're struggling so much in this new world. I'm not surprised they had to do a completely you know burst in their history deal with skims because skims gets it and Nike just unfortunately doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

And so I think some of those traditional advertisers who do the people who are more likely to get it, the people who've grown up on the internet as DTCs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

I mean, look at uh look at Skims. I mean, they're an example of just like they are, you know, the envy of so many brands, and it's no surprise that you know their the founder is yeah, you know, understands this stuff implicitly.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Yeah. Um and is that is that just uh and and that seemed like a that's the culture clash that's going on, right? It's the it's it's those guys who want to get bigger. It's always been the same, right? It's the it's the cool guys want to get bigger and the big guys want to get cooler. It's always how I've seen it, you know. And yeah, and uh the none of the neither of those moves, I mean that's why you have the collaborations. I think for years we just like you know, why does KFC do a deal with you know um on or whatever or whoever it is, or you know, it's because they it's it's because they want access to that, they want to be seen in that category. Uh they want to be part of the cultural, I mean the cliched cultural conversation, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And um yeah, and and and I lost my I lost what I was gonna say there, but yeah, no worries, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

So so where do you so in the 2026, and you're now invited to can, I assume that you uh yes, you do. Have you how many years have you been going to Cannes?

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Well, and then you just reminded me that's that's exactly what I was gonna say. Uh I was gonna talk about CAN. So this is perfect. You've read my mind. Um I went through the last last year for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Okay, so you're you're being welcomed at Cannes, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 52:06

I wouldn't say that. Um but you've got you've got you've got a you've got a soapbox to stand up. Yeah, you've got a soapbox, and and look, I think that's another thing working against the whole embrace of influencer marketing is you can't win a you know, it's not your idea. As a marketer, you have to let go of so much ego and say, wait, this person who who ultimately I don't totally understand what they're doing, and oftentimes I don't respect it to go back to Nike. I I have to accept that they're better at pitching my brand than I am. No, I'm the marketer. This is my idea, I have the good idea, you know, and so influencer marketing from a like winning awards and even realistically like feeling a sense of like, oh, did that. I had an idea and I put it into the world and look at it now. It's this commercial. Um, that doesn't really exist. And so I think that it is inherently less interesting for your rock star CMO to stand up on stage and say, influencer is the future. That's what we're doing, you know, because it feels like you're abdicating the cultural responsibility. I don't think that is true, but I do think that is what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

And so But there isn't, isn't there has there not been a case where someone has said, we understand it works in this way and it's different, and that's why we did A, B, C, and D. Yeah, yeah. Which is that's that's the best you can. I mean, that's what you should be doing, right? It's being it's that's how you get the best results.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

And look, it's like, what you do you want to be, you know, it's like, right? Do you want to like win the war or do you want to be rich?

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Um, I think that the you know, the brands that are the Hilton, the Hilton example is the Hilton example on TikTok was the one that caught all the marketers' attention. Right? The the the the Paris Hilton and the cast of influencers within the longest uh you know, it there was a really smart concept in there, and they had all the ingredients. And I'm surprised there are more like that seemed to me, okay. Now we're we've we've we've crossed the bridge here. Like you you've got compelling content, and you've got the people to you've got a massive influencer, and then you've got these other influencers, and and and you've got an idea. I was expecting to see more of more of that. Is that yeah?

SPEAKER_02 54:57

I mean, honestly the same. Yeah, I think that I think what's also true often is like, you know, there was that Super Bowl a few years ago, and I think we saw a lot of influencers being cast in the ads. Um, but just like actors and not very good influencers, influencers are not very good actors. Um and, you know, if if you take Mr. Beast out of the context of one of his videos, he just kind of looks like an insurance salesman or something. You're just like, I don't, I don't, there's nothing super compelling about this, right? Um, so I think the we have seen when when on a smaller scale, when brands come in and they're like, okay, we've got this concept and we want this, this is the content we want the influencer to make, and they're gonna tell this, this they're gonna do this thing. It just you know, it just doesn't work. And I think often, again, what is like true but sometimes frustrating for marketers is that like the meat and potatoes, like you know, have a good product, bring in great creators and trust them to to pitch this stuff to their audience in a way that makes the most sense to them is the thing that works. And it is it is maybe less creatively satisfying. Um but also it's just it's just what what works.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

Yeah, I mean that's a satisfaction, right? The satisfaction should be in the performance and see what yeah. Uh any questions I haven't asked you that I should have asked you?

SPEAKER_02 56:38

I thought this was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Oh great. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Me too. Absolutely, thank you.