Daniel Edmundson- Partner, Sylvian

In the wide-ranging conversation, we talk about strategy, creativity, and how the two work together. What you learn when you work for Mother. How good it is when you do all the strategy work with a ton of rigor and time. The challenges of what happens when the world of creativity comes face-to-face with the corporate world. We also talked about the WNBA and the music scene in Jersey. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the latest episode of Inspiring Futures. Um my guest today, Daniel Edmondson. Um Thank you, Daniel, for being on the on the show. Um tell us uh a little bit about um tell us your title where you work, what you do.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Sure, yeah. Um Daniel currently a partner at Sylvain. Um we're a strategy and design company um uh based in New York but with offices um kind of all over the world. Um uh at Sylvain I oversee the strategy practice. So or I oversee the design practice, sorry, um, where I've been uh uh for a little over three years. Um I'm a strategist by background, but I tend to oversee work and kind of gravitate towards work that is um has an output that goes beyond just kind of strategic to the verbal. So typically that looks like branding and uh brand identity and advertising and verbal identity and language, that sort of thing. So um even though strategy is my background, uh creative is my output in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

That's cool. That's awesome. That's really interesting. Um so how did you how did you end up at Sylvain? What was your kind of how how did the the journey that got you there?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I um, you know, I grew up uh, you know, um at least personal background. I grew up in New Jersey and um about 15 minutes away from New York City, and um it was a very kind of blue-collar upbringing, but really formatively was really growing up in the hardcore music scene in that area. Oh interesting, yeah. Yeah, so in like the late 90s and in early aughts, you know, um really just a part of that community, and it was really the greatest, it was the greatest gift. And honestly, I never thought I would do anything else with my life, you know, like I wasn't really interested in college or a career. Um, and I found so much meaning uh and purpose in that scene and learned so much in that scene.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Um were you what what kind of uh role did you play in that scene?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I I I played music in bands, but was also helped to kind of put on shows and you know was just like felt um really like a fixture in the in the community, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Um what was the scene, what was the scene like? What what how would you describe kind of the music in the world?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I mean, just really um DIY, you know, which which which is like a I don't know a term that I feel like has become less meaningful, but at the time it was just you know, folks would put on shows in their basements or in churches or you know, wherever. And um being a part of that and really finding meaning in that and and being able to open up spaces for people to express themselves was like such a huge part of it. And you didn't really say no to anybody, and like it was really an open forum for folks and a really accessible forum for a lot of people too. So um I just learned so much about uh I don't know, like acceptance and creativity and community and and design and participation, like all of those things that have become such a huge part of kind of who I am today in that scene. So yeah, it was really cool.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Um and then what happens when did you do when did you decide to make uh leave music and not make it a permanent journey?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Well, I mean, I I think I think from that, like I always knew I wanted to be creative in my work. I just wasn't really sure how. Um, and eventually ended up attending um uh a place called the University of the Arts in Philadelphia, which was this incredibly interdisciplinary arts school, like kind of a conservatory where you had, I don't know, like the designers and filmmakers and dancers and writers, like all kind of you know in the same space. And in it really instilled in me just the an importance in that in that level of collaboration. Like looking back, it it really looks a lot like the creative industry itself now, as far as just like a mix of disciplines and working together to make something meaningful. And so I don't know, it it also kind of explains a lot about my career as far as never been really great about committing to one thing. Like I've always been drawn to the space in between disciplines and um you know being a creative strategist and you know, and and working on being a writer at first, like it it kind of speaks to the really interesting, like the the desire to do lots of different things and experiment with lots of different things.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

It's kind of like it's a good place to be right now, you know, having had that experience. So when you went to school, did you did you major in anything? Did you how did it work?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I focused on on writing specifically, um, in just because I feel like I had a natural kind of knack for it. Um, but you know, uh found my way into advertising and communications again, just because of the creative bent of things. So ended up becoming a copywriter, you know, first and and and foremost out of school, um, uh and working really, you know, for local agencies in Philadelphia, um uh in like half in like the public health and kind of civic space, but then half in commercial spaces. So um yeah, being being here um in Philly uh really is also a huge part of of kind of my my upbringing, I think.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

What is it about Philly? Philly's kind of uh interesting. I'm I'm kind of super interested. I'm I'm very late to war on drugs, and uh they seem to be like very sort of cemented, rooted, and and curvile in Philly. I mean, I think his new album is all about Philly.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like there's a certain there's uh it's funny because I I went to school here and lived here for a while, and then I moved to New York for like uh 10 or 15 years, and then just recently came back. And what's so interesting is that it hasn't changed. Like it's there's something about the city, I think it's something about the um blue-collarness of it. Um, there's also just like an entrepreneurial kind of um bit about it, but also I think it's it's about how um living artists and musicians can do their thing here and not have to worry about it's affordable. It's affordable. Exactly. It's so affordable, so accessible, and and so um celebratory, I think, of of creativity too. Like I think, you know, living here, you go to art openings and you go to shows and you go to whatever, you know, pretty regularly just because it's a part of the culture rather than um, you know, I don't know. In New York, it it's like these things happen all the time, but you don't you go to them all the time, or is it hard to get into them all the time? You know what I mean? Like there's there's a bit of a barrier.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

More of the scene, it's more of a scene here, and yeah, it's bigger. It's hard. And I think I think there's something interesting about like cities that kind of are in the shadow of New York a little bit. You know, the Boston, the Phillies, there's sort of uh you see in the bot here in the in the teams, right? In the sports teams, it's very kind of like yeah, it comes out, you know. We're not we're not New York and we don't want to be, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Exactly. Exactly. There's like a yeah, there's a there's a pride that exists, I think, here in being that underdog like city, you know, that uh yeah, it's important to the DNA of it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

So um when did you get into into strategy? What was so you kind of were you were writing and then copywriting, and then you how did you find first time find out about strategy that it even existed?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

It didn't exist at the time, at least in the small agencies I was working in here. Um and uh I ended up going to to business school for for a minute and really understood the expansiveness of of kind of what strategy was and what it could bring. Um, but I think it all really shifted for me where when I moved to New York, I ended up meeting just like-minded folks and um you know, ended up being introduced to Mother and landing there at Mother New York, um uh kind of in its heyday, I would, I would say. Like it was it was the first true strategy job that I had. Like, you know, I had been a researcher, I had been a trends writer, I had been all of these things, but you know, that was the first place I really was a true strategist and was exposed to to that kind of work, um, you know, in a really creative way, um, which was really amazing. Like, really great.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

What did you end up working on when you were there?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Uh a mix of things. Like I think, you know, at the time, like it was um, I don't know, I'm trying to think. I think I started there in 2010. Um, right when I don't know, it has established itself um in a very innovative way, at least at the time. So like they had four kind of core disciplines, like there was advertising and design, and there was production and experiential. And I think like a lot of agencies had those capabilities, but not ones that were a hundred people and completely independent. And and so I don't know, there was just a sense there at the time that you know your ideas could take any shape or format, and you know, it could really uh develop in an interesting way. So um it was really in the heyday of Target becoming like a really big iconic brand. Um, Stella Art Artois was a big thing that I worked on a little bit as far as it was the time where it really pushed to be a premium product versus something that that that was not in the past. Um, I worked a ton on Calvin Klein um and Microsoft. It really ran the gamut as far as like the the industries and the categories that they that was kind of uh there at the time. And um it just felt like a really special place to be, you know, um at the at that specific time.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

What was it what was kind of your biggest like you know, you'd done deals to different things and you come from kind of creative environments and then you were this is your first strategy job. What was what was kind of the biggest surprise uh when you when you kind of got into that?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, I mean, I think I mean uh I don't know if this is unique to mother or unique to any place, but uh being there at that time, I felt like there was a sense that everybody that was there kind of belonged there. Like, you know, the the the differences were celebrated. I think everyone's weirdness was a part of the reason you were there. And you know, it was about contributing to the culture as much as the work, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

I think and it's an unusual, it's an unusual place. I mean, it's it's kind of a rare bird that you know really believes in its culture and makes the culture such a big part of who they are.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah, yeah, it's funny because it's like the culture and the work were almost at the same level, you know, like it because I think it's funny because we would have these um uh like retreats and outings, and we would create like we would have creative teams assigned to those outings where it's like create the brand for this thing and create all of the the swag for this thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I felt so much of it like we made the work that we made for ourselves was as good as the work that we made for clients. And that I think uh I don't know, again, like just made it such an interesting place to work and and everyone was just excited about making stuff all of the time, you know, like it was just it was uh an important just bar for people to be uh making stuff at the same quality as as the work itself.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

So what do you what did you feel about you know the because this the strategists that aren't uh super creative? I mean, I'm saying all strategists are creative to the point, but uh if they were really, really creative, they'd be creatives. You know what I mean? So um did but did you feel you had like an advantage, some advantages from the thing that your experiences in the past that really helped you? Kind of certainly like building relationships with the people you're briefing and working with.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Definitely, oh definitely, yeah, yeah. I mean, I I I think about this a lot in my in my current role and in more recent roles to you, as far as you know, what is what is creative strategy? Is it different from any other form of strategy? But I I think it part of that is is hugely um uh just understanding who, you know, understanding the receiver of the thing, you know, if that makes sense like it's you know, I think in strategy in isolation, when it's not going to a creative team, it's a different thing. It it can be a different thing, you know, like very much so.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

You know what I mean? Like it's it's it's if it doesn't have to serve anybody else, or it's if it's isolated in a certain way, then it's you know, you think about it differently and you articulate words differently. Like it's a whole um another practice. But if you're involving, you know, creatives in the in the process and designers in the process, I think you really have to think about how it's received. And it comes down to everything from word choice to a briefing moment to just you know how how that thing is translated in a huge way. So I think my background, you know, being a writer in the past and um I don't know if it's cheesy, but empathizing with what it means to like be a creative and and have to deliver in that that huge way, like the it it it matters, you know, and there's a difference in some ways.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

I always think I always think it's interesting. I did a I did a podcast with Chuck Mobride.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

It's pretty it's pretty interesting. Let's just because he was so um articulate about his process, you know, and um kind of like this whole idea that at the end of the day, sort of everything's personal, you know, the best work is you know, when we look at art, right? You know, the best work is personal, all good art is personal. And I think when it comes to like writing or when it comes to advertising, I mean he was he was talking about like uh you know, his best ads. Um you're always looking for that intersection where the strategy connects and kind of like sparks something that you recognize because you've experienced, right? That's a kind of like the idea of that truth. It's always really, really hard to try to convince creatives that this you have a truth that they don't get, that they haven't experienced. You know what I mean? We've all been there, right? And um, I think that's sort of really for me, is like the balance of like strategy is just sort of like how you negotiate and navigate that tension that exists between those points, between somebody who really believes that something is a certain way, uh, because that's based on their personal experience, and then someone who has another point of view that uh maybe more of a strategic point of view. Yeah, it's like it's the negotiation between those two things that is ultimately the really interesting part of the strategy job.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

I mean, there's all there's all there's also about the to me, there's a tension between like the visibility and the and the credibility, like the credit of strategy and creative, if that makes sense. Right? Like it's like to me the best work that comes out, it just there's no there's no um dividing line. It's sort of like exactly, exactly. Like like people aren't aren't looking at it being like, oh, the strategy was this and the creative was this. That's amazing. Like if anything, like the the strategy should be somewhat intuitive and invisible, and it should just kind of exist in in the work itself. And um, you know, sometimes I don't know, in in agency is like I don't know if that's always uh if that's always felt. You know, like I feel like sometimes there are strategists who are like, this is the the strategy is the champion and not the not the output, you know, and like I definitely to me that's not like I've never felt that way, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah exactly. I and I I th I think it is uh um yeah, the it's the best work. The best work is where you can't see the line and the it they have the there's the phrase your strategy is showing, you know, which kind of mocks the work that sort of seems a little too on the nose, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

So that's cool. So um how do you compare Sylvain with uh with mother? They kind of like as as organizations, have they got some similarities?

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Well, I mean, it but so there there's lots of overlaps in in some ways. So I got my job at Mother through Alain Sylvain, who was the founder of Sylvain. Um I also met Michael Ain Kay, who um founded Mother Design, um uh who is my partner at Sylvain today.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Um so like there were family connections.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

It really is. I mean, I mean, even if you look at kind of the number of companies that have spun off from Mother, New York specifically in in different ways in the past few years, as far as Preacher and Combo, like there's Sylvain is is kind of a part of that family too. Um, and and there's a lot of people I work with still um, you know, at Sylvain that are former mother. Um so yeah, I mean it's it's um I think there are definitely shared values in that way for sure, as far as just standing for uh originality and really looking for opportunities to be different. And um, you know, I think that's those are huge parts of both companies, um, for sure. Um, but uh I think that the only the the big difference is that's that Sylvain is I think uh majority strategy um and minority creative, um, which is a first for me. Like it's it's always been I've always worked at places where the creative practice was way larger than a strategic practice, and here it's almost the reverse. So I think what's been interesting is is seeing how um yeah, what what the role of of creative and design is, you know, at a at a place like like Sylvain, um, which has been really interesting and uh bit of a journey for sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yeah, it's interesting. I think like kind of like the it's it's such a it's such an interesting um concept because when I was a with Butler Shine uh you know we had our kind of strategy department had kind of cards that sort of said consulting on the back.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

So, you know, kind of when we'd we'd go out and do consulting projects. And I always liked the fact that we had you know, it our superpower kind of was that we had creatives that could make our stuff look really good.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

You know what I mean? There's the kind of because there's sort of like there's a sort of a journeyman corporateness to kind of like that strategy that exists outside of the creative, and if you can and I think people struggle because it's it's sort of a lot of words and then they can't see it.

unknown 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

If you can see it, it suddenly has kind of octane to it.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah, yeah, I I I I don't know how you feel, but I I have definitely experienced that it's there's even more of an issue with clients seeing it these days. Like I don't know, I just I just feel like there's such a cast of um of just operational marketing and in and all of the things that you know fall into the camp of of just being measurable and being able to evaluate it. And and I think I think clients and and companies are continually being trained in in that way to do that, versus the big brand work that you know that really helps to um differentiate or create distinction around a company, which is just not happening as happening as frequently as it as it used to.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Um so I mean what you're what you're kind of saying is there's a sort of a um the what marketing world right now is sort of is much more rational and it sort of thinks in in numbers terms, but and it that which makes it very hard. I I mean I've seen I experienced this myself. I mean it it makes it much, much harder when you're trying to sort of show something that is sort of create classically creative and and classically emotional.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Because they're not used to seeing it, they don't know quite how to handle it.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

I think that's part of it, but I also think it's it's also uh clients, yeah. I mean, I don't know, it it so much is is a contribution to. the the world we'll we're living in at this very moment as far as like the uncertainty and the volatility volatility of of just our economy and and business and and all of that I just think there's a less of a risk factor when it comes to you know what what businesses are willing to push these days and I I feel like I I don't know I've never been um I've never worked at a time where clients were asked to do things faster and cheaper and even less with a less of a quality filter a little bit like like even us like we've been working more on sprints and uh been been kind of contained to to certain um I don't know different ways of working uh you know that are different from from from how I've experienced in the past and I I think there are pros and cons to that honestly like I think the pros that I try to uh communicate to my teams and it prevents my teams from overthinking or overstrategizing a solution. Yeah trusting your gut I think is you know um I don't know it's an unapplauded uh you know hero in in some ways like I think we've we've in in some ways we've lost that yeah level of yeah I agree with that because I I was watching this video of a London design shop like I can't remember what their name they're pretty famous they're pretty good one and they had the brief for Formula One and the first thing they did was there was no brief and so they literally and I think I'm such a you know I think I love physical space I like the idea of like putting stuff up on the wall and they they just they kind of really they just let the creatives play and kind of they wrote they kind of had the strategy as the filter.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

So so the the thing was it wasn't it wasn't you have to respond to this brief it's do what you want and then we'll filter it through the brief so the the great thing they ended up with is like a huge body of work and a huge way of taking the brand that wasn't constrained absolutely zero constraint. And so what that allowed them to do is actually say we could actually evolve this you know this isn't right for the client right now but give it 18 months they you know I just thought that was so smart. You know it was just it got the creatives really excited about possibilities and it didn't like it didn't like end anything like because there was always the chance that something might be revisited.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah yeah I mean I I think that openness also requires that openness on the client side as well to to you know want to see that that possibility and that potential you know but I think I think the thing about I don't know like the constraints of of timelines and and shorter just sprints is that it doesn't allow us to mess up or be wrong. You know like I think I think so much of that creative process is about making mistakes failing and learning from the thing yeah and just being like you know what this this idea actually is terrible like this doesn't work at all. You know but but I think it it I think when you're working so quickly sometimes you're looking for the right things very quickly and and that's just not a part of it. Like it or it's not a part of the natural part of the process you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah. So um do you think this is kind of do you think also this is sort of like is this is this because people are oh I don't know we're trying to look for the rationale of why this is happening uh is it because people just have shorter time horizons that they've kind of like got we've got something to attack that is a very narrow time frame we need something for this is or is it their decision process is like oh we've just decided it's taken us a while and because it's taken us so long to decide we now only have this amount of time to do this.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

I don't know like I I I feel like partially brands today seem to be less about what they can claim and more about what they can prove. And I think the proving part of things to me it all boils down to you know the uh structures and uh details of within a client organization too where it's like you know I think there's just been a a a shift in how um you know saving my job versus doing the best work you know and like I think there there and it goes like up and down an organization in that way. So I do feel like it's easier to say yes to the things that are safer um than to to really figure out how to push you know or to to make something uh bigger or to to take a risk you know when it comes to brand but that does so it's kind of that's really interesting in the sense that in the real creative world failure is part of the process but in the corporate world failure isn't tolerated no and if anything like it's looked down upon I think I don't know like like when when you look at just how organizations are existing these days like it's they're they're consolidating and they're they're they're minimizing and they're you know they're getting down to optimizing yeah yeah yeah optimizing exactly and it it's it's so much about that and the the culture of business is is almost um the opposite of what creativity should be bringing to the table with with a good creative partner you know what I mean yeah but it's like it's so interesting like you you look at the World Cup and all the advertising and it's so obvious everything that you're saying is manifesting itself. I mean David Beckham is walking home with a massive truck full of gold bars because no one has any imagination and yeah I mean surely someone goes you know what that thing we did with Beckham we did we didn't realize he was going to be we have no it's done nothing for our brand it's done everything to his brand and 24 other brands are uh uh uh have been supporting him so you know it seems like people the there's a cost of safety and the cost of safety is you just blend in and if you blend in that's a dangerous place to be yeah it's it's it's you become completely forgettable and and um not memorable at all. Uh yeah I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

So I I I mean I think it's uh I I sort of and I find it really interesting that you've got these worlds like you've got the rawness of like the next win and the way that was celebrated and the brands that embrace that um and then you've got these sort of micro like the reality is that the consumers taking control of the brand you know in a in a big degree. Someone was telling me the story about a Maggie Rogers song that had it in a lyric I don't know if you know this it says it's and the Knicks will win. You know this? Yeah yeah yeah so she like a week ago she started giving away t-shirts and there were 1500 people lined up to get these t-shirts you know and it's almost like she didn't it's like this accidental collisions that people are making their own and then the smart people are jumping on the signals because they see the opportunity. So you know that's kind of like you could the agility you need to be able to respond to the way the culture's moving seems to be a very critical part. So you can you can succeed the old way or you can see succeed by being part of the zeitgeist.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah. I wrestle with that a little bit though because you know it's like like should you exist to be a reactive brand or should you exist to really uh just almost monolithically talk about what you believe in. You know what I mean? Like it's yeah it's a massive tension. Yeah and and I see dangers in in being overly reactive you know where it's like you show up in a we in in a way that doesn't feel natural or in a space or with people like it's you've seen that happen before um and yeah it's it it it's such a because when you get it right it's incredible when you get it wrong it's a disaster you know what I mean but it's almost back to your point like to to get it right you really have to know who you are and and the people who do know who they are are the ones that get it right.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

And I think that I think a big problem is for all the reasons that you've talked about is I think people a lot a lot of brands are somewhat lost. They kind of like don't exactly know who they are or who they're for and you talk to a lot of people they're just like um you know meta you go you put a brand on meta it does everything for you it works out who your target audience is it does your creative and it runs your ads and then you just A B test everything. Yeah and so you get you get to an answer through the data you don't have the you don't start with the answer you do the you run the things to get the answer that you don't have which is sort of about backwards.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

It's also though I don't know if you've experienced this but I have felt like the some organizations combine marketing and brand into one function and I feel like that conflation is really hard sometimes because I I feel like they're they can they should be somewhat distinct in in some ways. Like I think marketing is very performance driven and brand can be but like you know it it's just the metrics around that are a little can be a little bit different too and and I don't know I I've I've dealt with organizations that are both that have separate departments and then have dealt with ones that are a combined one and it's always tricky because you don't like some folks folks backgrounds on the client side are more into the the science of marketing and some are like more into the I don't know higher level ideals of of brand thinking and you know it can be tricky.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah that's definitely true. And I mean I'm I'm I'm a I'm a firm believer I believe in that the brand is the whole organization you know and when you do when you're doing like identity work um you know you're thinking about often how you tell the organization what this is you know the the most important the most important thing for an organization is its identity you know I mean and they've got to believe in it and they've got to back it. Um and you know I think I think something's happened that sort of marketing sort of got the head cut off as a body of the organization you know that that that somehow brand became a bad word inside inside the boardroom and um they don't want to mention it but really everything they do is related to it.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah but but but I I feel like so many folks sometimes on the client side are like oh the brand thing is not my thing I'm doing the marketing thing.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah you know and they fail to realize the connection between the two or even even in that discipline which should be connected to brand the most connected to brand yeah we've got that that division there it's the lack of the lack of clarity.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah so um when you think about like so you think about your role now um how do you how do you manage the strategy part of the thinking and the creative part of the thinking yeah I mean I um so I I as I mentioned earlier I work in a kind of a a culture where you know I think it's majority strategy and it's majority strategy folks that have haven't worked on creative um work you know whether that's marketing or um or design work um you know I I think it's it's a new somewhat of a new function at at Sylvain. So it's really all about um helping to um qualify and identify like the the best the ways that strategy should function in in in you know when informing those teams um which might be slightly different in in other ways and I think we covered this earlier but yeah I just I I believe very much in strategy thinking that is actionable and ownable um you know in a way that you know and and memorable in in a way that people are actually using the thing versus a abstract thing that it's like a client signs off on and they don't use it or they it's yeah yeah it just gathers it gathers dust.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Do you in a way you have a lot of advantages because if your strategy first it's assuming you're working you have the discipline and the depth to come up with things that other folks may not have the luxury of being able to do. So the the client's hiring you for a strategy assignment assuming there's a bit of work that goes into that assuming it's original research assume you're gleaning powerful insights that an agency that's been given a week on a project is just not going to be able to benefit from you know so the there's some good things right about the way you're structured that could helpfully could helpfully lead to really good work right I mean in a way because I mean you've got the you've got the strategic fuel that others don't have absolutely and I think the what I'm really big on is you know when when clients or partners are signing up for a strategy or really into a strategic idea them really understand the implications of of that it's like if you say you're about this yeah this is what will happen and this is and this is how you show up and this these are the things that you do.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

And I think it's really important I think for folks on the client side to to be able to see that these days which kind of ties back to the earlier part about you know some marketing functions being so operational like I think I think people need to see what they're signing up for like and and what and what the commitment is you know on a on a certain kind of strategy idea.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

So the the interesting thing there is where the organization the marketing is the silos and if you're if you're if you have a strategy that talks about the brands or the organization behaving a certain way that suggests that you actually might want to hire a certain type of person that the the the maybe this may be the overlying overly strategy but it actually can manifest itself in different parts of the organization. Yeah then they're asked the you know the marketer has to have the buy-in of those other groups and have the respect to those groups for this thing to be able to make it through because it always seems like that seems like this massive challenge which we all have which is yeah we're very good at doing the strategy stuff but then there's this challenge of selling out into the organization and that's partly what we ask our client partners to help with and then it's partly what they ask us to help them with. And sometimes the get there's blockages or barriers that get in the way or politics that so it that's a thing that gets the thing watered down right because it's like I can't I can't I don't have the political capital to push this as far as it needs to go. So we're gonna dial it back.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah which is which is why so the which is why we've seen some success I think on the Sylvain side of things because I think oftentimes we're pulled in on the strategic end of things or we're we're tasked to figure out a business problem. Like the WMBA is a perfect example where you know they brought us in because they were like no one's coming to our games yeah no one no one cares about this like what's the problem here like it and and that's more of a consulting I think classic consulting thing yeah yeah it's like is it uh is the is is it a you know should it should we think of it more as a touring model or you know is it more about um you know the venues where we're showing up or whatever and after doing that huge analysis we were like it's actually the the brand is actually not showing up in the right way in that in that particular instance it was the branding is reflective of just a women's version of the MBA not like a WMBA you know thing and so W there's no WA exactly like it really did it really didn't feel that way and it was only through conversations with with actual players and um and folks within that community that we landed on a a brand that felt more reflective of you know those play like it it was a huge part of it. So to to your point like it it's it makes a huge difference when you can weave in the the business case for for it all you know and like how it affects that um which is for us it's good because you know I think we're again brought in so many times on like a core business challenge. Yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense um we haven't talked about AI we've talked 45 minutes we haven't mentioned ai um is ai part of what you guys you got how you guys work more of a part of what you how you guys work yeah yeah I mean I think we're as as is everybody trying to figure out the right role of AI in the work that we do and trying to accommodate I think um you know different partners that are asking for for it I think we're the way I I've you know at least started to look at it right now is is AI plays a great role in the beginning and the end of a project not sure how it works in the middle you know like it's at the beginning it's I think really helpful and of course things like research and onboarding and you know becoming familiar with with any given getting getting a quick start on just understanding. 100% and then on the end of things like I think on the at least on the design side of things we've been working on a lot of um you know when we hand over like a brand identity to an organization creating AI tools and and things that can actually read you know like when people are making stuff on the design side are are we following the guidelines or are we not uh you know like a real like dynamic living guidelines AI tool versus the static sort of PDF that does nothing.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Exactly and like it's integrated into they can kind of integrate it into the system and then they can use it to work.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Exactly and it it definitely has has been a really helpful tool in uh writing and creating language um as far as having like an AI tool that you know for a writer on the client on the you know the the organization side um coming up with lines there's a there's we've created tools that are like monitoring that and bringing that and being like this deals on brand this does not you know you this brand is all about being more uh you know focused and sweet and this is not like I think those things have been really really helpful um so again like we've been we've been using it in so many different ways but beginning and as like the the bookends to the experience have been the most helpful so far.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

It seems like that I mean the one thing I've sort of been thinking about a lot is going back to the brand as the uh as the organization it the way I think about it is that the weakness of brand guidelines was that they were always out of they kind of was out were they weren't dynamic. They were sort of they start somewhere and they were kind of out of date and people and they were also like they were never really super clear. They always like kind of had this sort of subjectivity to them. They contain a lot of words that if you hadn't been part of the original briefing process could kind of like easily get confused.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

You know, uh, you know, what does it mean to be genuine? What is what is it? You know, exactly. So you you'll like bring our personal interpretations. But now when you look inside an organiz, and so you had these you had these brand guidelines, but an organization kind of the way I the way out the example I always use is like imagine like the organization has made a sort of like a dictate that um we're going to buy 80% of our energy from sustainable sources. And the CFO sort of messes up because he wants to he he or she wants to kind of like make the numbers for a quarter and decides not to do that. Well it doesn't take long before they're going to be hauled before the board or something, right? So in a in a in in the way that that the the organization kind of works in a human level where there's contact reports, there's offsites, there's all the things we have the static brand guidelines, but the brand is really a dynamic living organism. Well what's happening with AI is AI makes more decisions. How is it making those decisions? You know so you know you're asking it does it know is it is it if you're at Starbucks and you've told it we need to buy fair trade coffee, how does it know what fair trade coffee is and does it ever comp will it ever compromise those decisions because it somehow believes it's also got another master about optimization. So I think it's just really really interesting because we're built we're building things for a world that is changing and the decision making is changing. And I think for brands it's a really dangerous you know it's a potentially really dangerous place to be because they could lose everything they stand for if they if they push AI towards optimization.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Well well yeah exactly exactly like it's it's so much of what AI the role of AI is playing right now is maintenance maintenance and and consensus and and like it's not about originality and it's not about like creative like it's those sorts of things would mess up the whole algorithm you know and I think that's that that's why it's so important I think within companies to really establish like the role of it in in so many ways where with a guideline situation yes like it can it can provide the maintenance of a certain tone of voice or a certain level of guidelines but I think if you're looking to differentiate or be distinct or do something else it's going to confuse it so much. And and like that's not that is not like the the role of that thing at all. That's the humanity part of of what we need to bring.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

So when you when you're building things like that is what kind of people do you need to it seems like that's a very interesting like hiring skill who are the people who because is is it just regular writers who are using AI tools or is it a new breed of person that who is emerging?

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah I mean Sylvain we're we're fortunate enough to have a we we we're part of a company that uh that is um is is in partnership with a company called upstatement which um is a digital design company basically they have the tech they have tech they bring it to every project that we have um which is great like it it really helps to to really formulate those tools at the very beginning um rather than uh you know have it be an add-on at the end like this is it was a huge thing on we we just did a huge rebrand of um etsy um and you know I think the huge the big part of that was they had tried to do these rebrands of the visual identity in the past but it had never been reflected in the product experience like it was never um visible on the app or the website or whatever and I think the upstatement and the kind of digital component of that um in looking at both the brand and the product experience made it feel so much more cohesive and holistic and and better overall because um we had consider like when we were coming up with uh identity and design um decisions it would be implicated in the product immediately you know and you could see that and so I think that's a huge part of it too is um yeah seeing how things are actually changing in real time. Yeah it goes back to your point of saying like where's this strategy showing up where's how's it actually right exactly um what did you what are your advice for young strategists right now you know who uh who maybe are two years in maybe starting out in a very you know challenged all the reasons that we've talked about um you know how can how can they put their best foot forward what what are things that they should how should they be thinking yeah I mean I I can say at least from the Sylvain lens of things um you know I think we're always looking for uh almost like ambitious generalists like it's you know folks that can clearly excel at the work and bring rigor to the work but also have a certain instinct or something else that you know becomes a part of their I don't know I I feel like talent and identity and all of that is so connected these days. And so I think it's really important that you know folks bring their skill set but also bring themselves to to that situation. And um you know I I can't tell you how many times you know on a project where um yes like we assign a strategist to it but a strategist with some you know interesting quirk about their background or experience they've had actually amplifies the their their showing up or their contribution to a project. So I think that's really important. Like I think it's uh you know important to lean into who you are and and your background and make that a part of a a value add in some way.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Yeah that's right that's great. What about your personal inspiration? You talked about like uh getting out and about and out galleries and stuff. What's how important is that for you and fueling your kind of your your you know creative um and making sure that you're sort of like thinking about the world around you.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah I think it's huge. Like I think it's you know I think um what's so awesome about um either uh I don't know visual art or music or any of it is the uh speed at which you know you can make stuff and have it go out into the world and and all of that. And I think my hope is that I'm instilling that in teams also. Like it's again it goes back to the instinct and the gut and and that part of things which I feel like is sometimes um underrated in in the world that we live in now um at least in our industry where like I think it's really good to have a a team or an individual that really believes in something and have a client that agrees with that and then just make that thing and like it's oftentimes that's the best work out there is this is stuff that's like not over strategized or overthought.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah I think I think your mother your mother example of like having canvases to play with that aren't client related is a really nice way of letting people loose yeah on things. So yeah for sure. Brilliant thank you so much is there some question I haven't asked that I should have done so is a good no we covered a lot of grammar that was really good thank you so much. Yeah thank you so much