Black Forward

Black Forward Episode 2 - Featuring Rachel Morton and Guest Marcus Sanders

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Rachel will be speaking with Marcus about his journey through and beyond incarceration. They will discuss the impact it had on his family, his personal growth, and how becoming a Returning Citizen has transformed his life and the lives of others in similar situations. This engaging interview is well worth downloading and sharing with friends and family who may be facing challenges as Returning Citizens.

Recording and post-production by Carlos Casarez / KZFR 90.1 FM, Chico, California. www.kzfr.org

SPEAKER_00

Hey y'all, I'm Rachel Morton. Thank you for joining us for Moving Black Forward, a multi-part series about resilience, leadership, and building stronger futures in our community. It's produced by KZFR 90.1 FM and the Black Resiliency Project. On this week's episode, we'll be discussing incarceration, addiction, recovery, fatherhood, and the power of second chances. I will be talking with Marcus Sanders about his journey of transformation and what it means to move Black forward. Welcome to our program. Marcus, welcome.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you. I appreciate you having me here today. This opportunity to express myself and tell my story.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Well, let's jump right in. Will you share with our listeners a bit about yourself and what brings you here today?

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh I'm blessed with the opportunity, first of all. Uh my name is Marcus Sanders. I'm a returning citizen. But most people don't know what a returning citizen is, someone that um was formerly incarcerated, and I did approximately 20 years, but I've been free for 19. So now the rebuilding has been taking place. Um I'm a grandfather of 14, I'm a father of six, I'm a homeowner, and I'm also a carpenter, and I'm also an author, and I'm also a professional poker player. Yes. Yes. So I you know that. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. I I got a few hats. You know what I mean? But it took it took a while for me to get there. But who I am, I am a person that's continuous learning who I am as a person, and then the world around me has continued things continue to change. It allows me to um have a conversation with myself in order to see where I fit in at. Because it's never always it's never about me no more. You know, being those the person that likes to um be in them streets and stuff like that, it's always about you. But when you have a family understand the value that you bring to being um someone that they can depend on, it's a lot of weight to come with that. And I understand what that means now. And I'm 57 years old. You know, so yeah, that's you know that's a part of who I am.

SPEAKER_00

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing, Marcus. I also want to share that we have Ife Saint in the room. He is our outreach coordinator for the Black Resiliency Project, and so he will be jumping in in this conversation as well. So, Ife, we're so thankful to have you here.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, thank you for introducing me, Rachel. Um, again, my name is Ife Saint. I work for the BRP Black Resiliency Program, and I appreciate being here to help weigh in on the conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. Well, let's jump right in. So your story includes, like you shared, incarceration, addiction, rebuilding your life, looking back, what was the turning point that made you decide your future would be different from your past?

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's like uh it's not onefold or twofold, it's threefolds. Because being when you incarcerated, you you sitting in a cell by yourself or with some other uh guys that's really we all telling a story to ourselves. All along you not having a conversation with yourself, which allows you to be able to start having detail and understanding the responsibilities that you have. And when you get free, it's like all those things that you was thinking that, oh, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. Yeah, all the stories you're telling to your wife, your kids, these, all this, you have good intentions, but you really don't know what life is about to have in you when you're walking about them gates from after doing 10 years or 20 years. You could barely use it to cell phone. You know what I mean? Now these people are dependent on you, and you trying to carry them all along. You did not really know what it is that you're about to deal with. You know what? I'm gonna give you a brief story. They let me out. I did 10 years, I worked for the fire department. I was in fire camp for four years over in Pascana, right outside of Corney. I had never been to uh this part of Northern California. I'm from the Bay Area. So um my wife and kids moved from Pittsburgh to Chico, because my family's out here. So to give the family some support, give my wife the support she needs, which was supporting me. You know what I mean? That's a journey, you know, to do 10 straight years with somebody that you don't even know. You know, I met my wife, I was in prison. Yeah. Yeah, we've been married 30 years now. You know what I mean? Yeah, we've been married 30 years. So I said all that to say this here that when I went um, I was seven years behind the wall, I went to Pascana, um, uh Sapphire came out there called um Salt Creek. And I um I worked from the bottom, from just being in the back of the bus all the way into the front. Now I'm the cat that got the um the microphone. I'm the one that got the medical pack. I'm second in command.

SPEAKER_01

Started from the bottom, huh?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, indeed. You know what I mean? But now here it is, I must understand what responsibility is. Because I never paid a bill in my life. You know what I mean? I come from the era, you know, I'm 57, so you know what era I come from. You know, it's beeper bills and brick phones. You know what I mean? So I've never paid a bill in my life. Now I got five kids, I'm married, I got a whole house I got to take care of. And I'm telling myself I can do it.

SPEAKER_01

It's a lot of responsibility.

SPEAKER_02

All alone, I don't understand the magnitude that I done put myself into. But I have that faith with myself that I know how I can change and I can make these right choices. Because it's like, you know, majority of castes coming out of prison. For sure we be lying to ourselves. But we need that in order to give us the strength we need to make that jump. Because there's no way you in the streets not knowing you're going to prison. We out there like Superman, like we ain't never gonna get knocked off. Yeah, yeah. The probability is like 99.9 that something's gonna happen to you. You're gonna lose your life or you're gonna be sent to somebody's cell. But I end up going to um uh going into the fire camp. They let me free. They spent three years, I don't know how much money spent to teach me how to be a firefighter. Now here it is at land in Buke County. Go up to um Firestorm, which is off of um heading up to Cohasset. They like, oh yeah, we need you. You got 5,000 hours on the fire line. Five, wait, 5,000 hours? 5,000 actual hours on the fire line. How long did you spend at the fire camp? Four, almost four years. Wow. Consecutively? Consecutively. Wow. So now here it is. I go to Firestorm right there on Cohasset. He said, Oh man, we need you. I said, okay, well let me go talk to my parole officer. Parole officer say, no. I say, huh? Y'all just spent all that money for me to be a firefighter, and I don't like your I don't like your tone. I said, okay. I go over her head. She said, uh, she came to my house and she told me, you shouldn't never went over my head. You could work at McDonald's in front of my wife and my kids. She came to your home. To my home. My wife worked at um at the housing, I mean at the housing authority at that time. And she said, you work at McDonald's. Y'all be all right. Right there in front of my wife and my kids. And I was like, ooh.

SPEAKER_01

That's gotta be some kind of fire idea.

SPEAKER_02

Fire lit. Now I'm like, you know what? You can send me back to the bank. For sure. I was going back to the bank within two weeks. Now here come the crash. On my way down. Now I'm back where everywhere I've been, all the cracks and crevices. Next you know, I'm drinking, the addiction kicking in. The alcohol's coming. Now I'm I'm so miserable. I'm drinking alcohol and I'm riding back and forth from the Bay Area all the way to Chico with a fifth in the car. Catch three DUIs in a row. Now, the change took place when I sat up in that cell on that third one, seen them tears from my wife and my kids. Like, we depending on you. How can you say you love us and this is what you're doing to us? And my wife and kids know he loves his brothers and sisters more than anything. And for years, I could never come up, you know, I'm an old slick cat. I, you know, my tongue is wicked. So I'm like, I could never come up with nothing to be able to say to get her off me. And then the reality hit me. I say, you know, I love my brothers and my sisters. He's like, yeah. So you think I would do anything to hurt them? And she thought about it, like, nah, life is about choices. That's what I choose to do. Even though I was going through mental depression the whole time, I'm way out there. My wife and kids are out here. I'm depressed to the max. Got an awesome job, everything. Um, so that last time I'm sitting in that sale and I say, you know what? Yeah, I don't want to see my folks go through that no more.

SPEAKER_01

Would you, would you say that was rock bottom for you? Like what? That was the that was the event that made you realize you want to change your life?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that was it. That was it. That third DUI. Lost my, I bought a house right from across from PV, fresh out of prison. You know what I mean? So many blessings was coming my way. You know, my wife and kids lived in an apartment, five bedroom. You know, in Chico, they got five bedroom apartments and stuff like that. But I'm fresh home. I'm like, oh man, yeah, we're gonna get us a house. Next thing you know, I got the house, brand spanking new, working, working for the um, uh um, working for CeCe Myers, building bridges. And another story that goes with that, I'm in fire camp. And I'm working at the um Calusa, not Calusa, but the um Corning Fair. And they're doing the FFA with the kids, with the um, with the animals and everything. And it's this gentleman, he's watching me. He's a free person. I'm in, I'm an inmate. But I'm helping his wife get her booth set, and he see how I'm running the cruise, I'm moving all the pieces. And he walked up on me, he said, Hey man, you want a real job when you get out? I say, Yes, sir. He said, You ain't gonna be doing what you was doing when you they got you in there. Like, nah. He slid me his information. I walked up by them gates three years later, called that man. That was 2005. It's 2026. He got me in the union. I'm still in the union today.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. Can you go into more detail of what it was like going to these fire camps? Well, the thing about uh my whole idea about fire camp, it was never about the fires. It was about the opportunity to put my wife and kids in a better situation as far as visiting. Because when you're in prison, uh behind the walls, your family's being treated like inmates. You know what I mean? They're basically searching your wife and all the stuff. It's just very um not a good situation to have your wife and kids coming into. Yeah, what's that for them? No. So then it's like, okay, fire camp. I can go to fire camp? Everybody wants to go to fire camp. I never thought about fire camp. But all I think is the benefits of fire camp. The food. Um, you get to go out in the public, more space, more freedom for me to move around. I ain't know there were so many blessings coming that way. They could visit you there? Oh man, I they got, you know, I'm I was married, so I had family visits. So my wife and kids come stay for three days. You know what I mean? Come stay for three days, and I get to have a conversation with them. If something's going on in school, I get to really, you know, chime in with them. I get to spend time with my wife, I get to cook, whatnot. And um, the visiting era wasn't, it wasn't 200 people in the vision room. It's more like 25.

SPEAKER_00

So, Marcus, you shared about all the successes, and those are easy to see. Could you describe for me maybe what that day felt like when you first had to go back in after the DUIs?

SPEAKER_02

I just got chills, just thinking.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, explain that to me.

SPEAKER_02

To realize, yeah, that's it's like a reliving a moment that you don't want to have to deal with. For me, it was the reality of that I'm human and that I let the people down that depended on me most. And it was shame. It was like, I can no longer puff my chest out. Like, yeah, I know I'm the guy. I know what I'm nah, man. You just fumbled the ball for the whole family. You know, understanding that was something that I never had to deal with in my life. You know, consequences. My wife would tell you in a minute, like life is about consequences. But I come from a uh a culture that ain't no consequences, life or death. And that's everything in between of it is what it is. You know what I mean? But now when you hurt somebody that you love, and then you see the kids looking at you with it, and now the wife, the conversation no longer the same. The hugs are not the same, the appreciation is not there. So you, it's like an uphill battle. You still try to get back to that, and you never can because you lost it. That faith that you had in it, that was the biggest, what's the pain that I still deal with to this day. You know, we good, you know what I mean, but we ain't good as we were when we first started, you know what I mean? And understanding that I inflicted that pain on them. Me taking accountability for that, that's where my growth took place at. I can't say I would change everything because I wouldn't be the person I am today.

SPEAKER_00

Right. What do you think service-wise could have filled in that gap so that you didn't find yourself alone, drinking, back in the Bay Area, back in a community that wasn't benefiting you at that time?

SPEAKER_02

For me, as I didn't grow to and understand the journey that's take place. Like I was telling um these young men here today that um accountability is a cold thing. It is one of them things that people never, never, never, especially if you come from that street life, being accountable, because if you do it was accountable, you wouldn't do none of the stuff that you was doing. You know what I mean? So now as you transition, um, you start understanding, you start having empathy, you start being uh considerate of other people, you start being uh patient, you start being understanding. In that street life, you you don't have none of that because it don't go with the game that you in. You know what I mean? So, services, realizing right now, I had, I came home to everything you can imagine. Wife, kids, home, family, car, everything. Money, everything. And I fumbled the ball. So I think the biggest thing that most people need coming out of them prison is a mentor, period. They need a mentor before they even get home. You gotta have, because it's like, okay, you in there, they're getting bits and pieces of stories while they're in there. They're getting the wife conversations, they're getting the streets conversations, they're getting the other inmates conversation, and everybody having dreams of what they want to be and what they was. But life is gonna keep life and it's gonna stay, and the longer you out here, you're gonna keep dealing with things that you never saw was coming your way. But the longer you're out here, that muscle of understanding, that resilience muscle allows you to be able to get over those obstacles. Because that one year is different than that two year, that 15 year, that 20 year. It's always something coming your way.

SPEAKER_01

Is this what you wished that a mentor could have told you?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, ain't no doubt. But it has to be, it has to be like we would call them credible messages. You can't come talking to me and you've been in a book. You can't come talking to me about, I can take some of the information because I'm what under my why I'm wiser now. But you're talking about somebody fresh. You gotta be somebody that done traveled that road. Because somebody can talk to you and they'll say something, and you'll be like, excuse my language, he's full of shit. You know what I mean? And then you'll run into some and they'll be like, okay, yeah. Oh, he knows he knows what time it is. And because the respect gotta be there. You know what I mean? It's like they asking for respect, but they don't know really what respect. But you gotta spoon feed them because everybody got they they they puffed up. But that mentorship is a key in order for us to be able to get to these kids and these cats that's coming home.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You talked about resilience a little bit, and I'd love you to expand on what that means for you and also share about the tools you've created in response to the need, like the books, the magazines, yeah, those different things.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, um, like I was talking to y'all and me and me and Rachel, we had uh opportunity to meet each other in MBSAT program. You know what I mean? And I'm a part of an organization called RCA, Returning Citizens Association. Our founder is a young guy that I've been knowing since he was a young pup. We was in them streets. He did a lot, he did like 26, 26 years. And I have been home, but I've been, I live up in the mountains in Oregville. I live on seven acres, you know what I mean? And I just trying to keep my peace, so I'm really not around nobody unless I come down and see my family. You know what I mean? My aunties and cousins. So I'm sitting on the internet and I watch, I see, what do you got going on over there? But I respect this young man, and I see another cat that I respect. Not from no fear or no nothing, just as a person. So I'm like, if he doing, what's what they got going on? It's like when somebody got a secret going on, they you don't want to know what that is. I'm like, hey man, what y'all got going on? And he tells me. Boom, I popped up off that couch. And next to you, I've been on and running for the last two years and some change. Because he knows I got a story to tell these kids. He knows that I got an opportunity to be able to give them information that they don't know. You know what I mean? And it's delivery. But the resilience part for me is always me personally. Being accountable allows you to be resilient because you don't have no guilt on you. You take it and say, hey man, that's what it is, and I'm gonna keep pushing. You know what I mean? We never giving up, no matter what's going on around us.

SPEAKER_01

Keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_02

We gotta keep moving forward. Period. You know what I mean? And the tools, I uh the two, the main tools that I use is number one, me having a conversation with myself, being around solid people that gives you different information that allows you to see life in a different light. You know what I mean? So for me, and being able to be thankful, because like, you know, it may seem cliche, but somebody didn't wake up this morning. You know what I mean? It's like I ain't got no battery attached to me. You know, our body heals on their own. We ain't got nothing to do with that. So appreciate the moments you got. And then everything else, it just becomes easy. You know what I mean? Because they they they be like, I'm gonna keep it one. I'll be at, I'm at work, and it's a bunch of Hispanic brothers, and they like, man, how old are you, Marcus? He said, I said, man, I'm 57. It's another brother that he's 60, he worked at. He said, man, no, you're not for this. He said, why y'all look like that? What is he doing? But what he said, he they made, some of their people may look at 57, may look older. I said, man, we ain't worried about the same things y'all worried about. We not worried about the same things y'all worried about. They wonder why we'll be out there splashing the water, yeah, the lights came off, whatever. We're gonna figure it out. We have that resilience built in our DNA. That's just what it is. You know what I mean? And I have to give, uh, when it comes to my my wife, I have to give her the the uh the utmost because I don't know how she deal with me through. I may go to depressed and be, I may drink three straight weeks in a row at the time.

SPEAKER_01

Are there any like misconceptions? Maybe you told yourself that you had to move past to grow?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I had to the ultimate is you have to make the decisions. So it's you really have to have a conversation with yourself. It doesn't matter what's going on around you. Accountability, responsibility? Accountability, responsibility. But ultimately, you have to have that conversation with yourself. You know how many times each one of us has a conversation with ourselves? Every day, all day about everything. We do it every day, all day. But we let our outside influences dictate on how we're gonna move because we wanna be seen in a certain light. Try to move forward. We gotta move forward. What are you doing it for? Are you doing it for the likes? You're doing it for the views, you're doing it for somebody over there, you're doing it for somebody over there. When you start doing stuff for you, boy, life starts getting a whole lot easier. And it's not being selfish, and you know, we hear that word selfish, and people just, it's a negative condemnation. No, man, that's my protect my peace, so I can help us all must form. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

So what I'm hearing is put your mask on first.

SPEAKER_02

But put your mask on first, yeah. You gotta take care of yourself first so you can take care of people around you. Yeah, because you can see a picture of it. You know what I mean? It's like you could be able to, like, I'm in a class and I I could say something like that, like, oh, you know, in the airplane, that's what they say, such and such. And it's like, okay, yeah, you got your baby there, but you gotta protect yourself first so you can help your child. That's what they say.

SPEAKER_01

Because the baby can't help you. Because I remember when I was a kid, I always questioned that. I'm like, well, does that make sense? What about the kids? What about the people that need help first? No, you need people that can help to take care of themselves first. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

So, what I'm hearing is you've got kind of like five steps to focus on. So being accountable, being thankful, keep moving forward. So using that energy that you get from being thankful and recognizing where you need to be accountable and using that to move forward and then having good partnerships. Everyone may not have a partner uh in a relationship, but you may have a coworker that you can connect with and help support you. And then the final thing, protect your peace.

SPEAKER_02

You gotta protect your peace. You know, and it one thing about for me, my family structure is strong. That's what my wife said, he on the all he loves his brothers and sisters. You know what I mean? Because that knit is what it is. My family, everybody be like, man, you guys are just, y'all just so tight. Like, I don't see it being nothing, no, no other way, because that's just what it is. So it's normal to us. You know what I mean? We just like we text every morning, good morning, have a wonderful day. You know what I mean? Okay, this is motivation for the day. My sister, okay, you know, she's a 9-1 operator, so she's gonna say something slick. You know what I mean? My brother's uh uh, he's an armed guard, so he always go bring us uplifting. You know what I mean? And I'm gonna be like, always lead it off. Good morning, Claire. Y'all have an amazing day. You know what I mean? Grandkids, however I'm feeling, you know, just like I just um two days ago, get a phone call. 17-year-old grandkids, there's two of them. Hey, Papa, you at home? Yes, I am. Now at home. All right, we just want to see you. And they drove up to the mound, bounced to that door, hey, Papa. Oh, Laura got the great niece in the house, the other grandkids, she's six years old. We one comes from LA, like, oh, I want to go, where are you going? I'm gonna go stay with Nana Papa. So, you know, when you get those things around you, your life starts, it starts blossoming and blooming. You like, man, I'm so thankful I made it to this point. Because I could have crashed out and I would have never seen none of this. So I can be able to be a mentor and be able to understand these steps of what you're gonna go through in life. Transition. I got I'm still growing. Yeah, you have moments where you just be stuck in like, whoo, it whooped me. Life whooped me today. Life whooped me today. But I'm gonna sit in my chair and marinate on it and be thankful by wake up in the morning. Oh, I got another chance. I may not go fast, but I got one foot in front of me. The other, and I'm moving. You know what I mean? And I I was thankful to I was uh appreciative to somebody that day. I was courteous to somebody that day. You know what I mean? Or somebody was being a jerk to me that day. You know what I mean? I was like, yeah, you don't life, man, life keeps life.

SPEAKER_00

So when you think about re-entry, uh returning to returning citizens, uh, the term moving black forward, what is what sparks for you?

SPEAKER_02

For me, unfortunately, is that moving black forward is something that we've always had to do because we get caught up in everybody else's narrative. And the only way we can get the moving black forward is understanding that, hey man, we need to rock with each other in order for us to get where we need to go, because it's like we are the continuous persecution of everything. So moving black forward economically, um, physically, um, financially, to the store whereas though we have great ideas, we can sit and chop with each other and come up with a solution to whatever it is we. You gotta remember, we we come from nothing. So we ain't going nowhere. So it's like, okay, how can we make sure the kids is good? Because if we left it to them right now, it it'll be tore up. You know what I mean? So we gotta be able to lace them and or they got to fight with them. They got the, they got the intellect with it. But that passion that we're talking about is rooted in things you done saw. That that them hunger pains you done felt. You know what I mean? That loss you done seen. You know, so understanding that part and um not being um caught up in everybody else's narrative about what everything else is going on. And it starts at home. That's why I say my main thing is always with my kids and my grandkids, where they can have a conversation with Papa and be like, it's it's right there. Because I know I ain't gonna always be here. I'm finna give you some information that you're gonna be able to use later on. Like our grand, my grandparents, they're gone. Now I'll be like, oh, now I know what my grandma was. But she told it to me years ago. You know what I mean? So being around like-minded people that had the same understanding allows you to move a little faster. But if you don't stay grounded yourself with moving black forward on how you're spending your money, how you uh spending your time and all these type of things is not gonna help. Not individuality, individualism, you know what I mean? It's something that most people live it on right now. You can see it all day. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. You know what I mean? So for me, moving black forward is being around the right people, having some good ideas, and putting a putting a plan together. Small pockets, you know what I mean? Because you got small organizations, but then you got the big organizations. And they like, oh, you like, I got that's a nice idea. Oh, yeah, man, I'm gonna help you and swallow you up. You gotta protect your brand, unfortunately. Even the people that look like you. You know what I mean? So, you know, for us, it's it's it's little pockets. These homegrown groups is what's gonna keep it moving. You know what I mean? That's gonna keep us moving forward. But that's what I see.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And especially the lacing up. Yeah. Um our young people need that. What do you want the listeners to walk away from with today?

SPEAKER_02

For people that's an um, we would say system impacted people, from the phone calls to the letters to the money you send and to the visits to the cat that's in prison or the one that's on his way. For the cat that's on his way to prison, understand your moves costed your whole family. So you gotta be accountable for the moves that you make and understand it's never just about you. It may be about you at that moment, but after after it's all said and done, who are who are we dependent on? The wife, the sister, your brother, your grandmother, your mother. Financially, we was already hurt. Now you just put some more strain on, but you say you love me. You know what I mean? You got to understand the um the respect and understanding of being a person with just being accountable allows you to just give your family peace. You've shared so much today.

SPEAKER_00

How can someone get in contact with they can call you for sure?

SPEAKER_02

Um you can you can get in touch with me on um return to citizensassociation.org and um just uh email to say Marcus Sanders, you want to speak to Marcus Marcus Sanders. Also, we have a mentorship program that um we are um we open to recipients. Um we got a 12-week resilience program that's that's nice. Oh yes. And when and then you know they got so many videos with me. So, like um uh Erica Garcia, I mean Erica out of Fairview, she showed a videotape of me to the kids doing my I want to speaking engagement, and then she was like, Oh, yeah, I want you to come in. Oh, so when I walked in there, the kids were like, Oh, that's that guy from the video. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, just getting um data in order for the people to know that these um these people are out here to help the community. This is what I'm out here for. And one thing about I I I love Butte County, but they got some gatekeepers out here. They got gatekeepers out here, you know what I mean? But hey, I'm gonna still push, I'm gonna keep pushing.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, well, thank you so much for uh being here today and the stories you shared and just being so uh transparent and vulnerable with us. And thank you for being a resource in the community. My goodness. Um, so yes.

SPEAKER_02

I want to say thank you for having me. You know, this opportunity is one that I've been looking forward to, and um we're gonna continue to do the work wherever we can and and speak truth. You know what I mean? That's what it's about. And being an example is the key. You can you can say what you want to say, but if you can't show me how to do it, then I don't know how to do it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Thank you for joining us for moving black forward. To learn more about the Black Resiliency Project, please visit blackrp.org. That's blackblacrp.org. We can also be reached at five three zero nine zero seven seven eight eight two. And yes, you can also use that number to reach out to Marcus. Please keep moving forward.