Episode 1: Antidote to What? – Am I the drama? | Auntea-ology: The Antidote Dialogues

Have you ever asked yourself - honestly - "Am I the problem?" Or, you know, the meme version: "Am I the drama?"

Welcome to the first episode of Auntea-ology: The Antidote Dialogues, where we talk about what breaks us and what heals us in equity and liberation work. We're spilling the real tea on equity issues - the awkward moments, the blind spots, the things nobody says out loud. No cancelling. Just radical honesty, held with love.

In this episode:

• We explain the name: why an auntie, why tea, why "antidote" and most importantly, antidote to what.
• Mueni shares a story about the moment she first realized she might be implicated in the thing she was trying to fight.
• We explore how oppressive systems don't just hurt us; they disconnect us from our own humanity and from each other's.
• We ask the question that changes everything: What if the antidote is simply the willingness to truly see and to be seen?

Reflection Questions for You:

• When was the last time you realized you were part of the problem and what did you do with that feeling?
• What illusion about yourself are you still afraid to break open?
• If you truly saw yourself clearly - the complicity, the blind spots, the good intentions that fell short - could you still extend grace to yourself?

What You'll Walk Away With:

A framework for understanding how systems dehumanize us and how we dehumanize ourselves and others in the process. Permission to face your place in the system without drowning in shame. And the reminder that the antidote isn't perfection or purity; it's staying in connection anyway.

Join the conversation deeper: www.seedroom.ca

🍵 Monthly Auntea-ology gatherings (live, confidential)
📘 Online course with frameworks and readings
🧭 Coaching & consulting for teams and leaders ready to move from performance to practice
📧 Free discovery calls: info@seedroom.ca

Come messy. Leave thinking.

Music credits:

Intro Music from #Uppbeat:
https://uppbeat.io/t/jeff-kaale/win
License code: YHCOEFOGGBJ5NJQC

Break Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/pryces/eagle-pass
License code: WPJEYRTCMDVANXLF

Outro Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/cloudchord/dharma-feat-soul-food-horns
License code: JLAYJCLEG7O9ZRPB

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:10

Have you ever asked yourself, honestly, am I the problem? Or you know, the meme version, am I the drama? Welcome to the first episode of Ontology, the Antidote Dialogue, where we talk about what breaks us and what heals us in equity and liberation work. We're spilling the tea on equity issues. The awkward moment, the blind spot, the things nobody says out loud. No canceling, just radical honesty held with love. Come for the gossip and state for the truth. I'm Sylvia Ali Paco.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

And I'm Wenny Mutinda. Wenny, how are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks. It's a gorgeous sunny day here, and it's springtime. I'm excited that we get to begin this project that we've been dreaming about for a long time. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

I'm good. I'm good. Uh yeah, it's raining here, so the opposite. Um, but I'm I'm really excited about being able to share the kinds of conversations that we have been having for so long with each other. Um, and the kind of conversations that inform the work that we do together. So uh yeah, I'm really looking forward to all the conversations.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, it's been a while, you know, that we've been talking that hey, we should be recording these conversations every time we talk. So this is this is a culminating moment to all of those preliminary, unrecorded conversations between us.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Exactly, exactly. Okay, so the tea's ready. Let's talk about the name, Ontiology. Ontiology sounds weird, we know, but we promised there's a method to the madness. In our very first episode today, we're spilling on why an auntie, why tea, uh, why antidote, and most importantly, antidote to what? Okay, I'm Winnie. So, are you the drama? When did you first realize you might be implicated in the thing that you were trying to fight?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Ooh. This is a great question. Um so about a decade ago, I was going through a period of intense self-questioning, doing some deep interrogation of the work, the sector I had been in for 20 plus years. So a long time. I was primarily questioning my role in the sector, my contributions. And the question that kept coming up for me was Am I part of the problem? Or do I actually and truly believe that the development work I've been doing and has been that it has been meaningful, transformative for folks, and contributing to meaningful, transformative, and sustained change? Another time we can unpack those questions, but at the time they serve to awaken me up to a kind of dissonance I was experiencing within myself. No longer resonance, but dissonance. There was deep agitation, the way we might experience a reflux, you know? So here I was wrestling with these existential questions, and nobody knew it but me. Something was cracking open for me in me, and it was exposing gaps in my understanding of the machine that is the international development sector. And I was, and you know, what I believed I was contributing to at one point I had to face myself, acknowledge all the questions and as well all the inconsistency that I was seeing and experiencing. In fact, let me just name it all the pain and harm the sector works through and reinforces. I was a part of that. I was implicated. I I wasn't one of the good ones. I I wasn't a savior. My deep passions and good intentions fell so utterly short. And I had to stop and face myself. And that was heavy, as you can imagine. I think one of the heaviest things we can do as humans is face ourselves fully and completely and squarely. And even in that seeing, willingly extend grace and kindness to ourselves. Seeing ourselves is not easy because uh in that seeing we realize how complicit we are in the systems we are critiquing. We learn that we're not who we thought we were. We start to question ideologies, structures, and systems and doctrines, and rightly so. We need to question everything, everything. I even have a shirt that says question everything. And on the other side of this questioning is the breaking open of illusions, blind spots, and outdated ways of thinking, the collapsing of walls of assumptions we have built in our minds, and the realization that, in the words of James Baldwin, I am already you and you are already me. Restoring connection and community with ourselves, each other, and our natural world, truly seeing and being truly seen is the antidote.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

So, Mwenny, what I heard from the story that you shared, and thank you for sharing that, is that oppressive systems don't just hurt us, they disconnect us from our own humanity and from each other's. And that is the poison that we need an antidote to. Yes, right, is that the lack of connection that we had with each other's humanity that enabled us to dehumanize each other so eatily and so readily.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah. Uh I mean, we fall into that seamlessly. And the awakening, the questioning is is that sort of then learning to look at yourself and to see, oh, I am a part of these things. What happens now?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

And it's like we become a part of the things, and then we assume that we have like certain obligations to those systems, right? Like that we, okay, we're part of the system, and because we we we disconnect from our own humanity, we just assume that we have certain responsibility, right, in that system. We have certain obligations in that system, and we stop seeing ourselves as complex human beings who are going to engage with the system in very complicated ways and have different kinds of needs, right? So we, you know, like if we're thinking about the capitalist system or the colonial, we colonial or capitalist systems, which are intertwined, um, we start to see ourselves as our roles, as our jobs, and not as full complex, you know, fully rounded humans, right? We we think about like ourselves through the lines of productivity and efficiency and output and what we can produce for society as opposed to who we actually are. And we we stop asking, like, what do we need and start just thinking about and asking what the system requires. Like, what did what the system need for me because I need to produce then and I need to do that. And so we end up like just kind of seeing ourselves in that land, and then we see others through that same kind of dehumanized lens, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah, exactly. I as you're talking, I'm thinking that it's like there's this machine, these these systems that that we are living within. We live within systems, whether it's the natural system, capitalist system, uh, and then that system, it's almost like it makes us into the machines that then reproduce the system. And in a lot of ways, that that's you know, we've reinforced that productivity you're talking about, that efficiency, that seeing that no, um, actually the title that I have or this upward so-called upward mobility, the hierarchical structures of I need to get here so I can achieve this and that. Um, that's that's really at it comes at the expense of everything else. And what is everything else? Our humanity. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

It's so interesting how we just end up pushing ourselves aside and like it said, we just become part of that system. Like we just see ourselves, and then we just keep perpetuating it. We just keep perpetuating the same systems that we end up that end up harming us and without without question, right? Without that challenge. Like you you spoke of like questioning your role in the system. I mean, that is so so key. And so many of us don't question our own role in the system and perpetuating the same harm that we experience for ourselves and for others, right? Like we end up dehumanizing ourselves. Um, we we ignore our own exhaustion, our own grief, our own need. And we then we end up dehumanizing others because we see them from that same lens. If like, well, if I don't need this, if I don't grieve, if I don't take the time to stop, why do you need to? Like, and if you try to, then I'm gonna judge you negatively because that you're you're not like fitting that system, right? And we and we do it in so many different ways, even when we don't want to, even for a lot of us who are very conscious of the capitalist system and the colonial system, it's just so ingrained that if we don't act actually, you know, actively stop and and and you know, reassess ourselves or think about it, we are it's so easy to reproduce it, right? It's so easy to reproduce that kind of harm and that judgment of others and ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah. Whew. As you're as you're talking, I'm just thinking, like, oh my goodness, what was my process for going through that? Where at the beginning, willingly going into that system that is international development and you know, the sector, uh, there was resonance. You know, we we want to do good, we want to be part of helping and and whatnot, until there is a dissonance, until things no longer feel like they truly align. And and that, you know, for me, I think that that happens to everybody, every one of us. We get to a point where maybe something happens that then lets us know that things are actually not the way that I thought they were. And am I, what am I going to do with this new information? Even though I've invested, I've signed on to these ways of the system, I've internalized, I've benefited from the system. How do I shift? And what does that look like? Because it's it's very scary. Uh, and that's what I experienced. I experienced a lot of terror from having been in a space for so long and then having to think about oh, uh, actually, there's a misalignment with my integrity, and I need to pay attention to that. I don't know what it is, I don't know what the outcome will be, but am I going to trust my intuitive guidance and kind of let this play out in a way? And I think, I think um, you know, I talked about this kind of private cracking open and that that's that comes with a lot of fear and insecurity. And it takes courage to be willing to walk through that. And and maybe others may not even notice or understand what you're going through, but within yourself, you know yourself. Uh, if whether you're sleeping well at night or whether there's some things that are keeping you awake because they need to be worked out and they need your attention. What I can say is that on the other side of that, because we do get to the other side of that if we're willing to go through that um moment of or or season of unraveling, I think there's a there, there's the other side of that, a deeper knowledge of yourself, a deeper um truth about who you are as a human being, how others are as human beings, and and what it means to live and work and be in your integrity.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

I often compare it to like working out, right? Like you have to, like when you're working out, exercising, you're doing your resistance training, and it is off, right? You're tired. Sometimes you want to give up halfway because it's just so exhausting and and and uncomfortable. And but when you once you complete it and you feel stronger, you feel much better for it. You're like, okay, I'm glad I went through that discomfort, that that exhaustion. Um, because on the other end, I feel so much stronger and better and and healthier, right? So I I I often compare it to that, like this process of unlearning and really challenging ourselves. It's like, yeah, there's gonna be discomfort. There's gonna be discomfort, but know that that is going to lead to uh a better you. Like it's gonna lead to a better you understanding yourself better, you understand and understanding others better, and just being a person who shows up for for the world uh in a better way.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Discomfort doesn't kill us, you know? No, exactly. I think there's a fear out there that, well, we can't be uncomfortable because I mean, who knows what's gonna happen. But the truth of the matter is that growth does not happen in comfort. We need to get uncomfortable, we need to get unsettled for us to really pay attention. That's that's just how that's just how things work. And um, you know, it's not it's not comfortable. It's uncomfortable for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

And I think that gets back to like, you know, we're when we're talking about the antidote. Like what are we talking about the antidote to in this in our series and our podcast? And really, it's all that it's that dehumanization of ourselves and of others. And what we're hoping to do is to get people back to focusing on themselves, understanding themselves so that they can show up better for other people. Um, and specifically with our equity lens with our anti-oppression lens.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah. Seed room consulting is an attempt to be, to model that antidote of what it means to um model, live, create spaces where radical honesty, where relational accountability, where passion, where presence, we're seeing can take place within the self and with one another. And I think, you know, that work is informed by a lot of the experiences that you and I have had over our 20 plus years in the working world where we're bringing all of those lived experiences and learning, unlearning, relearning into seed room consulting to talk about, well, this is this is what I was thinking. This is what I experienced. And these are some of the things that that I've learned. Like, for example, letting go of exceptionalism. Like in that experience, I learned very clearly that good intentions are not enough. And and they do not immunize us from implication. So we have internalized the system to such an extent that um I can't be standing here and pointing a finger and judging someone for being in the system when I am also captured by the system. Um, and so this shift to see ourselves for who we really are is uh is courageous. It's loving, it's it's compassionate to the self. We can't give compassion until we've given it first to ourselves. And I think this um seeing ourselves for who we are and extending grace to ourselves simultaneously is a direct opposition to what the sector loves. Either self-flagellation, like I'm terrible, everything is bad, or self-exoneration, I'm helping, so it's fine. So, and I've heard those narratives throughout. And there's another way, the need to reframe so that it's it's not us versus them or me versus you. I am already you, you are already me. So, how then what does that mean in terms of collapsing the the boundaries of the helper and the helped?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah, it's like going back to you reminding me of the idea of dichotomies and how dichotomization is very much a colonial approach to understanding the world, right? It's like savior versus someone who to be helped, it's like colonized or colonized. And when we're thinking about the white supremacy of colonization, it's white people versus the rest of us. You know, there's just this dichotomization that has been done to simplify the world. And and and that's not how humans are. Like humans can't be categorized into two meat boxes, you know, for each category. It's there's we're just so complicated and so complex in so many different ways. And I think understanding ourselves and others um in those complicated ways becomes increasingly important. Um, at the same time, very scary. Because and and I think we can acknowledge that doing that internal work and and coming to terms with how you have been, we have been complicit in systems of harm is very scary. It's very scary because when you start to actually understand also the level of harm that it's been caused by these systems, it it's very difficult to contend with. There's no uh easy way around that at all. It it's very difficult to contend with. I we can't we can't move past that. We can't do anything to to rectify things unless we contend with that. You can't solve a problem until you fully understand that problem because you have to, it might be like a small pro portion of that problem that needs all the attention, and then everything else will fall into place. So same thing. Like if we are, if we want to address, you know, we if we want to dismantle oppressive systems, we need to be able to address because you understand them like really well. And that includes our role. That includes how we have perpetuated them and how we continue to perpetuate them. And only then can we actually start to like uh tackle the different ways in which we perpetuate the problem and and thereby hopefully dismantle these systems, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah, it's uh it's a life, it's a life work to do that. It's a collective work, it's it's both individual and collective, but you know, the seeing of ourselves within these systems uh is a pathway to then realizing, oh, we're all we're all implicated, we're all complicit. And uh how do we find uh ways to get ourselves free? How do we work together to toward a common goal that is for the benefit of everyone? It was funny, uh, you know, when you were talking, I was thinking, I was just imagining a sink full of dirty teacups. And if you don't see that there's a problem there, you're never gonna do those dishes. The cups are gonna, they're just gonna stay there. So you you can't just go in the kitchen and and decide not to look at this glaring sink full of teacups that are dirty and just pretend that it doesn't exist. It does and it has an impact. And so, you know, to the extent that we're willing to be honest with ourselves and then with each other and to realize, oh, this is I maybe I was unconscious of this, but now I'm I'm clear. I see the problem, I acknowledge that there's an issue, and what are we what are we going to do about it? So we have a lot to talk about, and here are some questions we want to leave with you to ponder at this point today. So the first is when was the last time you realized you were part of the problem? And what did you do with that feeling? What illusion about yourself are you still afraid to break open? And the third one, if you truly saw yourself clearly, the complicity, the blind spots, the good intentions that fell short, could you still extend grace to yourself?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

We started by asking, am I the problem? Am I the drama? And here's what I'm sitting with after money's story. The question isn't wrong to ask. So maybe the answer isn't yes or no. Maybe the answer is, I'm in the system, the system is the problem, and I have to face my place in it. Without drowning in shame. That's the antidote. Not perfection, not purity, just facing ourselves and then staying in connection anyway.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Next time, we're getting into radical honesty. What it costs, why it's worth it, and why most of us learn to lie small just to survive. You won't want to miss it. If this conversation stirred something in you, if you're realizing you want to go deeper, we've built some containers for that. Our ontiology monthly gatherings are a space to bring these questions into live, confidential conversation. The online course walks through the frameworks and readings that shape our thinking. And for those who are ready to move beyond diagnosis into genuine transformation, whether you're leading a team, a movement, or just yourself, we offer coaching and consulting. Link to all of this are in the show notes. No pressure, just an open door.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

And if something we said today landed in a way you want to talk about, reach out to us. We are at info at seedroom.ba. We have rediscovery calls, there's no pitch, just a conversation about whether we can help. So today, thanks for pulling up the chair. Come Messy and leave thinking. We'll see you next time!