Rewiring Safety: Somatic Healing with Gazit Chaya Nkosi

Gazit Chaya Nkosi, an autistic AFAB trans non-binary Jewish mystic and somatic coach, discusses neurodivergence and "neurocomplexity," somatic parts work, and the Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP) — a passive, auditory method that helps the nervous system re-establish safety and social engagement.

The conversation covers practical tools like resourcing before/during/after stressful events, setting compassionate boundaries, working with children and parents, and everyday practices (breath, movement, vocalization, mindfulness) to build a life worth living and reduce shame and reactivity.

To learn more about Gazit and to book a free consultation call please visit their website therootedcoop/home

Love the conversation?  Want to be a guest? Or simply want to connect please visit  linktr.ee/RecoveryCatalystPodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

My the evaluator who diagnosed my autism, like officially, she said a quick like definition of autism is easy things are hard and hard things are easy. And that I think captured as like, oh, complexity is like, yes, it's energizing to me. Like talking to somebody's, you know, somatic part from when they were five years old that wants to make sure that they're

Welcome to Gazit’s Story

SPEAKER_04 0:28

safe. That feels like so straightforward.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

And I'm all in a very, very special guest today. Their name is Gazit Kaya Nikosi. They are an autistic AFAB, trans nonbinary, Jewish mystic, and somatic coach specializing in the safe and sound protocol and somatic parts work. They are dedicated to supporting neurocomplex individuals who have felt stuck in traditional modalities. They help others move beyond reactivity and disassociation. Having personally navigated decades of deep complex struggle, they are honored to guide others to a life they love in all its complexities, a journey they truly consider a miracle. And I believe this conversation is going to be amazing. So thank you for joining us, Gazette. And that was a very brief overview of who you are as a person. So are there any gaps you'd like to fill in that I missed? No, it was so beautiful. Did you write that? Yeah. Yeah, I worked a little bit on that.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

I'm like, I don't think the that I wrote this and I love the way you framed that. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

You're such a cool individual, and you have all these amazing titles, and that I wanted to try to come up with something that felt like it encompassed a little bit of you, even though it's brief. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Yeah, I feel really seen in a way that I rarely feel. So thank you for taking the time and thoughtfulness to put that together. I feel so honored. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

I'm so happy that you like that. You're welcome. You're welcome. And there's because you have so much to go over in your you know, when I was reading your a little bit about you, there's so much we could dive into.

Defining Neurodiversity

SPEAKER_00 2:30

And what I what I'd like to start with, just to help me and my audience to kind of lay the groundwork for some things, I was hoping you could give us some some maybe some definitions of explanations of some words, such as like neurodivergent, neurocomplex. I guess we'll start there and go from there.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Yeah, for sure. I think the world is really trying on words right now to try to capture our emerging understanding of what this group of humans who may have previously been called anything from too sensitive and dramatic to, you know, autistic and any of the other like slurs that we may have heard about people who don't do the thing that mainstream society asks us to do. And I'm so grateful to be alive in this time where folks are trying to create words that are not stigmatizing, that can capture the complexity of this group of humans that from you know growing research we know are neurologically wired in a different way than other folks. I really appreciate this new concept of neurotypes, which holds that there are just different types of neurological wiring that we have within our species. And we can look at that without the pathologizing model that may have previously been used. So, you know, folks have tried this word neurodivergence, it's still positioned as other, right? So diverging from what is typical and the like counterbalance to that is often neurotypical, right? Neurodivergent. And then we have this umbrella term that folks use, neurodiversity, which just says that, you know, neurodiversity means everybody. Right. So that's an effort, you know, that's on the like newer end, but sort of coming into mainstream that recognizes maybe it's different, but maybe not like a difference versus disorder. Uh so it's moving in that direction of less pathologizing, but still othering still holds this like typical. I think that's something that we struggle with in our language and as humans is not creating a duality. So neurocomplexity is something that I picked up from Lindsay McAreath, who's a very um fascinating thinker, substack writer, psychologist, incredible human, who is trying to invite in even less othering, even less pathologizing, and acknowledging that there's complexity in neurotypes that can be both disabling in terms of how society treats us, and can also be all other things that are different but can sometimes be more of a privilege, like giftedness falls under her umbrella of neurocomplexity. So she's just sort of capturing an even broader, like we all have different nervous system wiring. And my interest in both of those words and in that whole world is as someone who was told that I was too sensitive and that I needed to like try harder to get on board with being how everybody else was, and who failed miserably and felt sincerely sorry and deeply ashamed, and very sort of all-encompassing guilt and you know, sort of living my life as an apology, and then even moving towards an attempt to end my life. After that, it really became important to me to find and understand ways where it could be okay for me to stay on the planet, even if I was unable to do what was expected of me. And so that journey has brought me to the place where understanding how the nervous system works in an unconscious way has allowed me to start to separate out some of that blame and shame about how my body interacts with the world and to bring in some acceptance around sort of how it's it's not a choice for me. It just is how my body is wired. And the neat overlay there is that sort of my neurodivergence and my queerness uh both invite me into that same conversation. So it feels pretty like whoever planned this thing wanted me on this path and they gave me multiple ways to be like, you can't do it, you can't do it, and we're gonna we're gonna figure out that that's

Why Sensitivity Became Shame

SPEAKER_04 8:00

okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

How no, I've always like I've always struggled with this, how sensitive became used in such a negative connotation. You know, like it was so bad to be sensitive or to feel things so deeply, or to be in touch with how others feel, or where uh where do you think we got lost and how we started using that language like negatively?

SPEAKER_04 8:26

You know, like the uh creation of uh white supremacy and chattel slavery alongside sort of imperialism colonialism, those were spaces and times where the uh sensitivity, which you know was prior to that associated with spiritual leadership, was separated out, you know, in order to create white supremacy and slavery, we needed to create a structure of domination and patriarchy was a result of that. And so we need to find a way to decrease folks' access to spiritual power, and that is our sensitivity, our intuition, our feelings, our inner guidance, our compassion, our ability to take the perspective of others. All of those are a way to align people with their individual power and a way to decrease their ability to be controlled by a dominating authority. And so, you know, embedded into patriarchy and white supremacy is the need to disconnect people from what then became called feminine, which is where we get the misogyny and the sexism appears, right? We create a gender binary, we align this spiritual empowerment embodiment with the feminine, which is now under the domination of that which is going to disconnect us from our sense of self. And now sensitivity becomes a threat to our ability to be dominated. And the, you know, sort of wisdom of that system is that it uses our genetic wiring to need to belong to the group against us. So when we want to control others, we disconnect them from self and we tell them they'll get kicked out of the group. Right. And pretty quickly that's an effective strategy to make sure that they'll stay under our control.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

And that's so sad. I mean, that's putting it mildly, but it is it's very sad because we're we're here, we're supposed to be here for each other, not necessarily making a divide. And often it feels we're creating a a bigger divide among everybody just trying to exist under systems that you know are are sworn to protect us but are mostly failing us at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Yeah. And even if you can apply that same grief to the experience of those folks who were trying to figure out how to dominate someone else in order to feel safe, right? All of it comes from insecurity. And domination is not unique to the human species, you know, having to grapple with a pressure and a threat around survival in being alive creates the need for violence. And I think there's a lot of grief that is unprocessed around living on a planet where survival is threatened in such a way that we do need violence in order to try to preserve that survival.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

No, I I agree with you. And you know, every time I seem to turn around, there's I see more people, you know, struggling to get through the day. You know, just very just struggling just with trying to stay here, stay present, and their nervous system is just there's so much stimulation too, which which does not help from everywhere.

Sensory Overload in Daily Life

SPEAKER_00 12:27

And so as you approach your work your nervous system informed approach, how do you approach it as someone who who is would you consider yourself highly sensitive? Yes. How do you how do you approach your work if you're if you are in that space of being highly sensitive?

SPEAKER_04 12:48

You mean how do I take care of my nervous system when I'm around folks who are struggling? Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me, for whatever reason, when I'm in a sincere, deep, open, honest, vulnerable, one-on-one interaction, it is not taxing to my nervous system. When I am in more of a like grocery store, like how like how to pay and say thank you and say just enough but not too much, or a soccer game where my kid is playing and I'm supposed to be paying attention, but also chit-chatting, but also like not, that is five minutes of that could drain me more than six hours of one-on-one clients. And I think that has to do with my nervous system knowing that the one-on-one conversations where people are absolutely in their as close as they can come to their authenticity, they're in the sort of like most vulnerable version of what most of us do is when we're in therapy, right? Right. That my nervous system is like, no one's lying, no one's masking, like we're relaxed, we're be honest, we don't have to perform. Right. And when I'm out in the world doing something that my nervous system is like, what is this for? Right. Like, what what is the goal of this? And I'm like, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Um it's like I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

My um, the evaluator who diagnosed my autism, like officially, she said a quick like definition of autism is easy things are hard and hard things are easy. And that I think captured as like, oh, complexity is like, yes, it's energizing to me. Like talking to somebody's, you know, somatic part from when they were five years old that wants to make sure that they're safe, that feels like so straightforward. And I'm all in, and my whole system is energized. And then, like I said, trying to figure out what to say to the lovely 80-year-old man that I pass every day on my walk.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

It's like, oh, every day. All I usually end up saying is like, wow, the weather, right? And then it's okay, but that takes like a year off my life every time. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I feel you're about the grocery store because that's one of my least favorite places to go. Like, I can't even lie. Like, I just I just it's so overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Cause there's so much, like you have to be present in like 18 different directions.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

Yeah. Putting your money away. Um I'm like, I how? How would I how would I? How could I? I like just hold it all out and uh ridiculous until I get outside and then when I take a deep breath and I like sit down.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

That's totally what I do and figure out how to put it on back. Yeah, that's totally what I do. I just like, yeah. Oh that sounds like me. I don't even want to know what it looked like sometimes at the grocery store. You know what I mean? And because it's just it's such an overwhelming experience sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

And you know, the they have the the the self-service registers and the regular registers.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I'm like, what do I do?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, it's just like then the poor like 80-year-old guy, and then like when you're doing this work, you know, and you're present and you're connected with somebody, that sounds like it's very soothing to your nervous system. You can lock in with someone because you're kind of working on the same thing at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 16:39

And they've invited me to do that, right? They've asked me to. And when I'm out in the world, I go to the same places because my system doesn't know where else to go. And people are like, I did not invite you to do this, please stop. Right. So yeah, I feel like I have a permission slip. I feel like everybody's on board with what's happening, they've signed up for me. I'm a lot. That's why I like podcasts too. I'm like, you have invited me, so I have permission to be me. Um I don't feel like I have that in the rest of the world.

Inside Safe and Sound

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah, and that's that's hard. And you know, when I was reading your like about what you do, you have this nice little video like on your profile, which is so helpful. And it was explaining a little bit what you do, the safe and sound listening protocol. And I was really excited because I I had never heard of it until you were speaking of it. And it's it's passive. And I was I was wondering if we could dive into a little bit about that, because it sounded really interesting and from what you were saying, really helpful, really healing.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Yeah, it's pretty awesome because it's one of the very few modalities that don't require a cognitive aspect, right? So it's really just coming under the brainstem through the auditory canal with altered or filtered music. So the frequencies have been changed in such a way that the inner ear muscle and the vagus nerve are sort of invited to change their pattern to move back into the rhythm of connecting with safety, which a lot of our vagus nerve, which is the primary aspect of the autonomic nervous system. People may have heard it called the ANS or the parasympathetic, which is that mechanism within us that helps us to shut down if something's dangerous, play dead, helps us to go into fight or flight if we need to do that, and then also connects us with rest and digest. When we overtime repeatedly, the nervous system's job is to check if there's safety or danger, and it'll sort of like set a domino chain reaction based on that perception. When it perceives danger, danger, danger, danger over time, you know, sort of from day one of being born into, you know, a loud, crazy hospital room, and then your parents dysregulated because they haven't slept, and then your siblings are screaming, and then you have to go to a kindergarten and you don't feel safe, and you know, just you get told to sit still when you need to wiggle, you can't go to the bathroom, all these things over time. Our nervous system can just decide not to check in if it's safe or dangerous anymore, and just stick with danger. When we feel safe, we can reach for connection with others. When we're feeling like it's not safe, we go into protection mode. And that's where a lot of us can end up in long-term defense states. And that can show up as depression or anxiety or addiction, all sorts of things, right? Pretty much anything in the DSM is like a nervous system that is not checking in with safety regularly. Um, and so Stephen Portis came up with this idea of polyvagal theory, which basically like expands the traditional understanding of the parasympathetic, to include this idea that we can also go to ventral, which is where we feel safe enough. We can connect with others, and we can connect with rest and digest. And he experimented with using this filtered music to invite that vagus nerve to reconnect with ventral, to sort of like get that system back to its original design, where we're checking in with safety regularly. And why it's so awesome that it's passive is because even though our society thinks that we do everything through our brain, uh, it's actually like 88% of physiological activity, including behavior, language, all these things, emotions, is nervous system first and then brain. So it's bottom up, you may have heard it described. Oh, right. Yes, yes. Top down is cognitive to body. That's only about like 12 to 20 percent if you're being generous. So most of us are trying to control our body with only 20% access, not realizing that our body's controlling us. So when we try to do talk therapy or we try to do even 12 steps or any of those more cognitive based modalities, we're really fighting against our body. And when we can invite in that sort of rebringing back to the design for the vagus nerve, we can get our body on board with us, and then we can use our cognition to get that 80-20 in a rhythm. So all of my work can be done without the SSP, but with the SSP for those who qualify and who are good candidates, it really can help that system get moving because a lot of times that body is just like, I don't care what you tell me. I'm not going anywhere. This is so dangerous, right? Right. A little help. It can be like I like to describe to my clients, it's like walking down the airport by yourself, you can get there, but the SSP is like a moving sidewalk. It's just a little bit of support. Um and it can make a really big difference for folks, myself included. I came to it first as a client, and I was so astonished that I I decided to become a provider.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Because you you you highlighted something that I think is important. Even if the therapy is great, talk therapy is wonderful, but it can be exhausting. Because I've been in times like, why are you here? I'm like, I don't know. You know, because you're just like you're exhausted.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

I mean, like it's like it's still hard to be on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah. I mean, I mean, p picker reason, I don't know. Like it's just, you know, so it to hear of a therapy that is you know, doesn't require you to necessarily be in motion and really have that be like online, for lack of a better word. Yeah. It it's very refreshing. And and I'm curious what that feels like as you're going through it, like as you're going through these sessions.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

So you can think about it a little bit like massage, right? So massage is passive, and we can have moments in massage where it's good, uncomfortable, like, oh yeah, right there. Oh, it hurts, but keep going, right? Or we can have moments in massage where we're like, no, stop, that hurts. That's not that's not awesome, right? So we're still engaged, we're not like in the other room, right? We're feeling it, we're noticing it, we're checking in with ourselves, we're having cues from our somatic sensation about what feels good, what doesn't feel good. We're navigating how to take care of the parts who are scared to say that. It doesn't feel good. You know, some of us will like do this through a whole massage because we're like, I don't really like it, but I don't want to say anything, so I want to upset them. And I'm supposed to like it, so I'm just gonna like finish for the next hour, right?

Listening to the Body

SPEAKER_04 24:57

And that happens with SSP. We work a lot in the beginning on like, is it okay to say, ouch, that hurts getting shot, right? Is it okay to go actually I know we just started, but I have to pee? Right. I know that it's a part of a massage, but my jaw hurts when I put my face in the thing. So is there any other options, right? So we're we're working at the beginning really with those parts who have been trained to like never voice that you have a body or discomfort because the SSP will provide us with opportunities to notice that those physical sensations, and then we're gonna be working with the parts who are scared to share those. So learning how to pause that the music is like a huge focus in the beginning. Um, and once people get into knowing how to pause, then the pause becomes an invitation. Like, oh, what were you noticing? We get to take care of that. Sometimes it's like, oh, I don't know, I got a little nauseous. And then we get to say, okay, let's watch the nausea, see what happens with it. And sometimes neurosection, which is just our nervous system's job, is to scan the environment for threat. Sometimes it's based on a threat that's not relevant to us, um, but that's relevant epigenetically. So at least seven generations back, we have stored data about threat. Oh, wow. Uh-huh. And so it could be that great, great, great grandma, you know, ate a chip and choked. And so when we smell chips, we may get a little like tension in our throat, right? And we don't ever have to know that grandma had that happened if we're able to stay with it and be with it and sort of check the facts. So we let that sensation come up and we go, okay, it's there, it's there. Okay, now it's a little bit less. Okay, now it's all gone and I'm okay. Versus a lot of us have learned, like, oh God, my throat is tight. Oh god, does that mean I don't like chips? Oh god, something's wrong. Oh, I have a throat chakra issue. Oh, I have a I need to go see an ENT, right? And then we snowball it, and now that turns into, you know, could be like a long-term anxiety connection around that. So we're gonna start to learn how to like watch the wave of a nervous system. I call it raising its hand. It'll raise its hand, right? It'll go, hey, I smell chips for the nervous system, it's very neutral, right? Smell chips, and that used to be a threat. And then we go, all right, I'll check it out, right? Sort of like when the fire alarm goes off. If we're awake and we know nothing's wrong and we hear it, we're like, okay, thank you for letting me know. I'll go check the stove. And then we sort of stay calm. We're like, okay, I'm gonna take the pan outside. Oh, yeah, okay, I burned the pancakes. And the opportunity with the SSP is to start to like get that confidence and that trust that the nervous system can raise its hand, it can sound the alarm, and we can go, okay, yeah, uh, let's take a moment, let's check in. Versus most of us, right? We either snowball or we go, Start up, and we take the battery out of the fire alarm, right? We're like, I'm in a meeting, I can't hear that right now. Stop it. So we're inviting back in that, like, oh hey, thanks for letting me know what's going on and explore it and then come back to the music, right? We start to get a little more confidence and trust with that body-mind connection. So it's not completely passive, but we don't have to do anything for the listening.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

No, something is definitely being done, you know, as you're talking it to it, as you're talking about it. And I can see where this would be important for things like, you know, trauma recovery, you know, emotional safety. Because I just suggested like the the chip incident, or like we were just talking about the grocery store. You know, this can it's I can understand how this could over time give people their life back in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Yep. Yep. The pieces that have sort of been evidence-based in the research in terms of outcomes are reduced sensory sensitivities and increased social engagement. So we see that, you know, all of us know that in the middle of the night, one sound could make us pretty startled, and that in the daytime might be no biggie. So we can sort of tell how our nervous system affects the same input. And so as the nervous system becomes more connected with you and trusting you, then the sensory stuff is a little less intense for the nervous system, if you will. And then social, again, if we're stuck in that protection mode, we're going to have the social engagement system, as they call it, turned off. So it's like, no, I'm not going to reach out to anybody, right? But as we come back into being able to toggle between safety and danger, between connection and protection, when we see people, we can go, oh, can we check in with my body? Okay, actually, I think I could connect here, you know, and and so we see it make a pretty big difference in people's lives, even without a whole lot of needing to sort through past trauma or talk a whole lot about, you know, your week or dynamics that are going on in relationships, anything like that. It can have a pretty big impact.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Um, I can I can I can see where it would you know, and I can understand also why individuals may come to you with modalities that maybe haven't been as as helpful. You know, because we they haven't been able to tap into you know the deeper layers that they need to tap into. And is this a is this a practice that has to be continued once the person starts through the remainder of their life? I know the time frame on which you'll see your relief will vary, but it doesn't need to continue for you know once they start it, they have to continue it even on like a therapeutic base.

SPEAKER_04 31:34

So the listening is not required to be continued. Some people do touch in with it as like a maintenance or a booster. Um, but the lifestyle does need to be brought in in a daily way. I think the recovery world is a world that models that well, you know, sort of when you stop using, it doesn't mean you're done, right? We're still inviting in the lifestyle. So the lifestyle of checking in with your body, responding to and taking care of your body, you know, prioritizing regular eating, sleeping, movement, connection with creativity, connection with mindfulness, which just means checking in with your senses, you know, connecting with understanding a sort of communication, boundaries, all of that becomes very, very much how you would maintain what you gained from the SSP. So I often give people at the end the analogy of like, if you went and did six months of, you know, really excellent work with the physical therapist and got yourself, you know, feeling really confident in being able to use your body in the way that you want to, and then you just stopped and you didn't do any of the exercising. In a couple of weeks, it would, you know, the benefits would go away. Right. Right. So it's like that. You know, we're inviting in, we're sort of re-establishing like you would with physical therapy, we're getting you back to a place where that injury is not impacting you so much, but we do need to do the upkeep stuff and create a lifestyle of taking really good care of our physical body, which is not something our culture encourages.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

No, no, it it is not.

Rethinking Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 33:29

It is not. And you highlighted a word that I think uh often gets say kind of abused a little bit as the word boundaries. I feel like boundaries are a a negative negative thing. And they're not because as you stated, once you do all this work, you have to keep the you have to reinforce the work, some of which through boundaries. And how difficult can that be for individuals who are not used to setting boundaries or don't know how to set boundaries? Yeah. Some of us including myself, I'm just like, what's it?

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Yes, yes. I mean, I think it starts with we don't even understand what that word means. Right? Most of us have been taught that a boundary means you tell somebody else what to do and what not to do. And that's actually not a boundary. That's a demand or a request, depending on how it's given. If I tell someone else what to do with their behavior, I'm either requesting or demanding that they change. A boundary is only ever about my own behavior. So let's say, I don't know, what's an example of if I don't want a certain person to call me, okay, and I say don't call me anymore, and then they call me. Many people will describe that situation as they crossed my boundary. Right. Okay, but actually what happened is I made a request and they did not accept the request, right? That's all that happened there. Right. So a boundary in that scenario would be to say, Hey friend, I want to let you know that I'm not gonna be answering your phone calls anymore. And I wish you all the best. Okay. The friend calls and I put it to voicemail, or I may choose to block their number. Right. Right? I have made a decision about me. I am choosing not to be in communication with them anymore. I'm gonna take responsibility for that. If they come and knock on my door every day, I can make decisions about, you know, do I want to change my locks? Do I wanna get law enforcement involved? Do I wanna move? Et cetera. Always focused on my responsibility. Now, people who are violent, right, are in the world, as we acknowledge at the beginning, sometimes we can do everything we can to take care of our own boundaries, and a violent person may continue to impact us, and that's when we need to reach out for help. Right. So if we're unable to maintain our own boundaries because of the violence of someone else, that is when we want to reach out for support, whether it be physical or mental health support, right? Right. As you mentioned in the beginning, there are resources out there. There's crisis for people in the US. We have 988 that you can reach out to. They're a great starting point. You can text or call them, they can direct you to domestic violence services or child protective services, whatever it is that you may need. Um but ultimately, you know, outside of those situations where we need to ask for help, boundaries are our responsibility. And how do we set them and how do we learn how to set them is tricky because it's not just a now situation. It is impacted by all of our previous life experience of it being harmful to take care of ourselves and giving ourselves the opportunity through, you know, my favorite modality is the somatic parts work because so much of our childhood stuff gets stored in the body and is stored in a vacuum of space and time. So those parts believe that if we say to the friend, hey, I'm not gonna come to the hangout or what have you, that we're gonna be locked in a room or we're not gonna get dinner or love's gonna be removed from us, right? Those parts don't know that we're an adult and that we're not gonna be punished, and that if someone tries to punish us, we'll take care of ourselves and remove ourselves from that situation. So, really learning how to set boundaries is less about learning the words that you would use and more about taking care of the parts of yourself that feel like it's not safe to even consider doing that. Because the words aren't so important, right? Once once our parts trust us that we are the adult who's in charge now, and that we will take as best care of ourselves as we can, and that you know, life involves pain and loss, and we don't need to try to avoid it, right? Then the words sort of become less important and it becomes a little bit easier, and depending on our capacity day-to-day, we may be able to hold those boundaries for ourselves when we're tired and overwhelmed, and it's a person that, you know, is really complicated in terms of the history, then we may see we have less ability, and then we get to just sort of take care of ourselves and love ourselves and grieve, right? And say, gosh, it makes so much sense that you weren't able to say no to this person. And I love you, and I'm gonna be with you, and I'm really sorry, and we'll try again next time, right? Or we'll bring that to therapy next week.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Right. No, I love that. It's like the I think that's the best explanation of boundaries that I've heard. Um, because as you as often as it's presented, is it's like a it's like a big thick wall, you know? Like it's it's not done out of love or or care for ourselves. It's like, you know, you're bad, I'm good. That's kind of what you know. And the way you're framing is it's more about me. You know, it has nothing to do with you. It's about where I stand on certain things, what I can tolerate or accept, and what I can't. And I can do it lovingly. I don't have to be aggressive or mean about it. And I think that that's important because boundaries don't have to be like in your face about it, you know?

SPEAKER_04 40:10

Yeah. More than once I've been on the phone with someone and realized that I didn't have the capacity to act according to my values because I was too dysregulated. And I've said, hey, I'm noticing that my body really can't do this right now. I'm feeling shaky, or I'm feeling like I might say something I don't mean, and I'd like to end the conversation. And that other person goes, Nope, we're gonna keep talking, we've got to da-da-da-da-da-da. And I have in those circumstances said, I really hear you, and I'm really sorry, but I'm not able to continue the conversation, so I am gonna hang up the phone. Right. And then I do so, right? And that is, like you said, just a caring for myself. Just, you know, I really like to encourage folks that I am not gonna help you calm down, but I am going to help you be honest about your capacity with yourself and with others, right? Because there are times when all that our body can do is lash out or lash in, and in those moments we can learn how to take ourselves aside and minimize harm when possible.

Honesty Calms the Nervous System

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Can being honest with ourselves can that act alone help our nervous system?

SPEAKER_04 41:39

Oh my gosh. Yes, the nervous system, it's a lie detector, first and foremost, right? I love that. Yes. All you have to do is there's something called muscle testing. You've maybe heard of it. You just, you know, lift up someone's arm and have them say, you know, I'm 46. So have me say, I'm 10 years old, and someone tries to press my arm down and it'll just go right down. And I hold my arm up and say, I'm 46, and it'll stay firm, right? And you can test that with a friend. It's harder to do on yourself. But that's what polygraphs are based off of, right? The nervous system is just like, you're lying, you're lying, you're lying, and it'll go, you know, heartbeat, you know, diarrhea.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

It'll have to, right? That's the true.

SPEAKER_04 42:31

So yes, being honest with yourself, even if you can't say it to the other person. If someone's like, hey, I really want you to come to my birthday party, and I'm like, I am so peopled out, right? And I go, Oh my gosh, I'd love to, because I'm scared to say no, right? Even just telling myself, hey, I know that we don't want to go. I know that you are done with people. I also know that you're scared to say no. And I get both of those things, and I know that the scared to say no is winning tonight, and that that's really a bummer. And so I am gonna take such good care of you. And tomorrow we're not gonna leave the house. Right. And tonight I'm going to, you know, you don't have to say anything, you can just sit in a corner and just drink your your coke and you know, just mallow out, and and tonight we'll we'll watch three hours of your favorite show. Right. I can do all of that, and that in and of itself, even though you're going to the party, it'll totally change the way you experience it.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

I love that. I love that you practice like talking to your nervous system. Like you're I mean, you are connected, and it's I think it's like, listen, like tonight we really have to do this, but tomorrow we can do something totally about you.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Yes. My nervous system knows that on Wednesday I am chaperoning for my kids' middle school. Trip to six flags. Yeah, I expect okay. That was like the worst case scenario on every front for my blessed nervous system, right? And I'm like, I am asking so much of you. I know it's gonna be so hard, and this is really something that I want to give to my kiddo. I am going to let you just flop next weekend, right? Right. Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Nothing, right?

SPEAKER_04 44:33

And in preparation, like I'm not going to his soccer game the night before, right? So I'm saying no to something so I can say yes to something. And that makes a world of difference, just being in conversation like you would with a friend, right? To navigate, to we're because we can't, we can't just avoid everything that our nervous system doesn't like, right? Right. Yeah, no, like yeah. Being honest with it and saying, hey, I know you really don't don't like this. I'm gonna ask you to get up early in the morning, but I'm gonna put you to bed early tonight, right? All the ways that we can be in actual, you know, respectful, honest, open relationship. And when our nervous system says, Hey, it's been too much, it's not working for me anymore.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Then we get to take responsibility for our life circumstances, you know. It may be that Wednesday night I'm having a conversation with my nervous system. My nervous system says, We're we can't ever do this again. And I'll say, Okay, thanks for letting us try. Thanks for letting us try. Yeah, and I and I will not do that again. And I'm so sorry. Thank you.

Coping Ahead for Big Days

SPEAKER_00 45:43

I I can relate to what you're saying because I've been there because my son, I've gone on like field trips with him, and you know, he's older now, and so it's not as much, but I remember like going to like just all these different like like Six Flags was one of them, I think, and there's these different like water parks and things, and I'm like, there's like 18 of you, and there's 10 parents that I have to try to figure out how to talk to, yeah, and teachers, and I can't go on the rides because my nervous system's like, no, no, you know, so I can like I can totally relate to what you're saying, like you know, how Wednesday at six flags was with is gonna be just a lot.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

Yeah. And I encourage folks because we can't avoid any, you know, taxing of our nervous system, I like to really focus on how do we resource before, during, and after. Right. So, like I said, I'm I'm taking things off my list tomorrow, the day before, so that I can go into it more resourced during. I have already told myself I don't have to try to corral or correct or protect any of the kids. Right. I'm gonna be just sort of checked out in terms of I'm not gonna tell them not to run. I'm not gonna tell them where to be. I'm just gonna, if the teachers are like, gosh, that chaperone's doing nothing, I'm gonna be like, uh-huh, doing nothing, right? Put me in the list, doing nothing. So I already told my system I don't have to do that. I'm gonna wear earplugs the whole day. I'm going to, it's charging right now. I'm gonna wear a little fan around my neck. Yes. Um, I've already decided that I'm gonna have an icy cup of lemonade or whatever I want all day. I can refill it as many of us as I want, even if it costs $40. Because I'm gonna keep myself cool. I'm gonna take lots of bathroom breaks. I'm not going on any rides. I'm gonna sit down as often as possible, and I'm gonna bring a little backpack with a book so that if there is any sitting with other adults, I'm gonna be like, I'm just gonna read for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yeah. No, I love I love how you like you prep yourself. Yeah, coping ahead, they call it. Yeah. And like I wish as as adults that became more normalized, because you think of how much we we prepare our children. That's right. But we've kind of forgotten about like ourselves in the mix that we still have a nervous system to maintain and we have to be there for our children, as you know, as you understand. That's right. And they're gonna be witnessing us having, you know, moments throughout life and it happens. Yeah. But it's probably a lot scarier when they see it repeatedly.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Absolutely. Yeah. And we get to model for them that they can take care of themselves down the line. They don't have to fall into this like strange, I don't have any feelings. I became a robot when I became an adult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah.

SSP for Kids and Families

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I I do want to ask you, is this work for for children as well, or is it mostly recommended for adults?

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Yep, I do work with children, teens, and adults. It is sort of like allowed two years and up on SSP. We don't work with infants or early toddlers. It's just what it's been studied to be safe with. So two and up. For me, I only work with kids once I've worked with their parents. Um, because I find that no falge of their own, a lot of parents have learned through this culture that they're supposed to push and control and fix their kids, which works against what I'm inviting in. Um, so if I'm inviting the kid to learn how to listen to their body and to pause when their nervous system raises its hand and to not finish if their body's not up for it, and then their parents over here going, You have to finish it, keep that headphones on. Um it can be a little tricky. And a lot of times parents are less concerned about their kids' behavior once the parent has learned about their own nervous system because they might be in a lot of games of what I call nervous system ping-pong. You know, I'm stressed, so now you're stressed, so now I'm stressed, so now you're stressed. And when we support the parents, oftentimes they're not so worried about their kids because it was mostly their own stress. But it it has been very supportive for kids, especially kids who are neurodivergent or neurocomplex. Lots of good research that's been done around that. And the SSP can be used. I use it with somatic parts work, but it can be used with other modalities as well. It's not considered a standalone treatment. So psychologists, social workers, and licensed counselors and coaches can use it with, you know, IFS, parts work, DBT, CBT, whatever their primary modality is. Occupational therapists can use it alongside yes, is wonderful with OT. So any kind of, you know, feeding therapy or fine motor therapy or sensory support, you know, balance, physical therapists can use it, speech pathologists use it. I'm actually trained also as a speech pathologist. Oh wow. So it can be used in uh support of many different modalities.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

That's right. That's right. You know, you can use it with, and I love that you have that you you ask the parents to take part in their own healing versus saying, you know, just fix my child. You know, you know, because even if you even if you do work with a child, if the home isn't safe and parents aren't here, yeah. Yeah. So this that's beautiful

Meeting Beyond Right and Wrong

SPEAKER_00 51:40

and I love that. And I I do I do want to ask you about this beautiful quote that you have on your on your profile by Rumi. I loved it. Uh out beyond wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there. What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_04 51:58

Uh uh, it just feels like everything washes away, and my whole system just opens up to letting go of this blame and shame, and you know, you're right or you're wrong, you're sinful or you're saved, you're good or you're bad, and offers us that reclamation of the truth of our actual physiology, which is that when we're scared, we do a few things. When we feel safe, we do all the things that we call good, right? And so if we can come back to the idea that the nervous system is just showing if someone feels safe or scared in their behavior, then we can let go of the rightness and wrongness, and we can come into this new field of possibilities where we can understand each other, we can support each other, we can take care of each other rather than rewarding or punishing each other for things that really we can't take credit for, right? Right. No, and it's such a beautiful quote, and I I I love that quote. Yeah, Rumi's one of my favorites. A mystic who also was a pretty nervous system informed.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, I I mean I every time I read one of the one of one of their quotes, it's like it always hits when I need it to hit. I don't know. I just always find it when I need to find it.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

An extraordinary soul for sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yes. And I just that one I think is is gonna be one of my new favorites. I'm big on quotes, quotes are like my thing. So like I'm I I love that I found like a really beautiful quote.

unknown 53:55

So

A Life Worth Living

unknown 53:56

glad.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Is there anything that you'd like to leave us with today?

SPEAKER_04 54:00

That you Yeah, just that I think there's infinite possibilities. Wherever you are, no matter how hopeless it seems, we are all capable of creating a life that is really worth living and worth living may not match what society has told you is successful. But I've come to really believe that successful is not necessary, that worth living is always possible, and it may look a lot different, but everyone's capable of it. And if I could find a life that was worth living, really anybody could.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

There was no hope for me.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Well now look at the life that you're that you're living. You're helping. I'm incredibly grateful. Yeah, and you and all the beautiful work that you're doing. I mean, come on, like that's amazing. It's it's unbelievable to me, just totally extraordinary. And you must get and I imagine it must fulfill you on a very deep level, the work that you do.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

Uh it is just I I words I can't really touch on how extraordinary it feels to be living in an experience where I do get feedback that people say I am anywhere from neutral to positively impacting their life. Whereas the first 35 years of my life, I only heard that I was making people's lives harder, that I was a burden, that I was only going to make people's lives worse. And I so believed that, and I was so sorry, and I really, really didn't want to be hurting people, but I couldn't figure out how not to. Um, so this feels like a totally bizarre alternate reality, and there is really not an hour that goes by where I am not like, are you hitting me? I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

I feel so privileged and grateful. Um I'm happy that you get to have this experience now versus the first 35 years where you felt you know all the all the ickiness, all the heaviness, you know. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

Not everybody gets that, you know. There's plenty of people that their whole lifetime is gonna be that, and and that's really the people that I want to know. It is possible, it is possible. And there's no one who's too far gone, and there's no one who's fatally flawed. Um everyone is so precious, and if there is no one else who believes that, I believe that about every single human on the planet. So I love you all wherever you are.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

I feel like you're the human version of like a warm chocolate chip cookie.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Um I feel like that's the best compliment I can give you. That is a high compliment.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Like, you know, like the fresh cookies that they you get them out of the oven. You know, they they they have like this beautiful, like, you know, your house smells, your apartment smells wonderful. You know, you just take a bite and it's like your whole day is good now. You know. You know. You're welcome. That's incredible. I I just that's what I feel like. That's what I feel like the human and I I know people don't like often to be compared to food.

SPEAKER_04 57:40

Oh I feel honored for like I'm seeing the like glisteny chocolate that's like still intact and the beautiful little shape but totally melty and the perfect crispy edge and the yes, uh the goldenness and the chewiness and the saltiness and the sweetness. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

You're welcome. And thank you for for for joining us today. What a privilege. That was such a beautiful conversation. You shared so much about your important work, your vital work for all of us. Not just for you or or or your clients, but for all of us. And this is work that is accessible to everybody.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

It really is. Yeah, the SSP is not required, you know, coming back into that relationship with your body. It's something that everyone can do. It's free. And I've got loads of nervous system exercises on my YouTube channel that are free. Please take advantage of them. If it if it's right for you, take what you like and leave the rest. Yeah, it's accessible for anyone. Breathing, movement, vocalization, and mindfulness. That's all we need. And all free.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

I love that. And your website is beautiful too. There's there's a nice course online as well that you have on on your website as well. Yeah. Um so yeah, please please check out Vizit. She has a wonderful YouTube channel, website. And I'm gonna put all that on the show notes as well. Yeah. Yeah, thank you for being an incredible guest. And I thank you for taking the time. I know your day was really busy today, so now we can we can let you go get some rest. Um thank you to your nervous system for allowing me to uh interview it for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Thank you for inviting me. What a joy.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Thank you. No, this was fun. I really enjoyed this. I've been looking forward to this interview. It's a very nice way to end the evening. So thank you.

unknown 59:33

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

And um please look, please look up Gazette, a wonderful human, look into her look into their work, I should say, I'm sorry. And you know, it may be for you. And I don't see why it's not for everybody, honestly. And you know, look into it. And like you said, it's like they said it's not one or the other. You can you can you can come you can pair it with something else. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 59:58

And if anyone just wants to chit-chat with me or ask me any questions or tell me their story, I have a link on there to book a free call, and it doesn't have to be just about working with me. I could just say hi.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

I love that. You can just say hi. I love that so much. And so and so thank you everybody for for joining and and listening to us today chat. Um, and check out our link tree in the show notes for clips and updates. And you'll please remember that you know you don't have to carry where you came from. You know, keep telling your story, and you never know who you're gonna help. And we will see you all next time.