Mixtape of Healing: Johnzelle Andersons Journey from Trauma to Triumph

On this episode of the Call Her Cat Podcast, host Cat York interviews licensed therapist and author Johnzelle Anderson about his powerful debut, Mixtape: A Memoir.

 

Told uniquely in "tracks" instead of chapters, Mixtape charts Johnzelle's personal journey from childhood trauma and feeling silenced to building a career in mental health and finding triumph. He shares his story of mixed-race identity, healing, and reclaiming his narrative.

 

In their discussion, Johnzelle and Cat delve into topics including generational pain, the transformative nature of therapy, publishing barriers, and the profound decision to bring his daughter to West Africa as part of reclaiming his family's history.

 

The conversation centers on resilience and the power of storytelling to heal and inspire, offering practical encouragement for anyone striving to reclaim their voice and break unhealthy cycles.

 

To purchase Johnzelles Memoir: Mixtape and to hear other podcasts he has been on please visit johnzelle.co

To learn more about Johnzelles Counseling Services, sign up for his newsletter, join his book club and more! please visit Johnzelle Anderson Linktree

Love the conversation?  Want to be a guest? Support the Call Her Cat Podcast mission to redefine the story of addiction and recovery. The easiest way to help is to subscribe on your favorite platform and share this episode with a friend. We always love hearing from our listeners! linktr.ee/callhercatpodcast

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast, where we share honest stories of resilience and recovery. I am Kat, and my mission is to try to hold a supportive and honest space for candid discussions on addiction, healing, and breaking the mold. Whether you are exploring sobriety, navigating challenging family cycles, or working toward finding self-love and empowerment, these conversations are for you. Let's connect, heal, and learn what it means to truly redefine your story. As a gentle reminder, before I introduce our guest, the Call Her Cat podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. The views expressed by the host and guests are their own personal opinions and do not constitute professional advice. Please consult with a licensed professional for any medical, legal, or psychological concerns. Now on to our wonderful guest, John Zell Anderson. John Zell is a licensed therapist by trade, author of Mixtape, a memoir. Mixtape is a very unique book told in tracks rather than chapters. Mixtape charts John Zell's journey from trauma to triumph, from being body shamed and silenced to building a career in mental health and forming a family of his own. Please welcome John Zell.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Hello everyone.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Did I miss anything? Is there anything that you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_01 2:03

No, that was great.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

So let's start by telling us a little bit about you. I gave a very brief bio, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

So um I guess for starters, you already gave the bio. I am uh both a therapist and a storyteller. Uh as you said, my debut book, uh Mixtape and Memoir, came out uh two months ago. Uh I uh am an avid reader. I read over a hundred books a year. Um I uh let's see, I'm a single dad. I am uh you know a business owner, I um at a place in my life now where uh peace, joy, and freedom are non-negotiable. Uh and I um I will say that my 30s are my favorite decade so far. I'm 33, about to be 34. So um all in all, uh I would like to say that I'm at the best part of my life right now. And um that's the spoiler for the memoir that we're gonna talk about because it starts off not so great, but it's not as simple as like, oh, it started off terribly and then I lived happily ever after. Uh peace, joy, and freedom are things that you have to uh fight for and pursue every day. So that's that's a little bit more about me.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, I've been listening to your book on Audible, um, and it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

It's incredible. I love it. And I love how you've done it with tracks instead of chapters. Um, it's a very unique way to do it. What inspired that way to do it?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Um, the idea for mixtape a memoir, uh the title and the concept came to me before I ever wrote a word. Um I guess uh around the time I was like brainstorming the project, I was thinking of, you know, I knew I was going to be writing a story about my identity, my experiences, and things like that. And there's a double meaning to the title mixtape. So obviously, a mixtape is a playlist that you know you make for a friend or somebody based around a theme. Um, and so uh being a person who loves music, I wanted to um uh have the elements of sound uh in uh telling my story, kind of like you know, if there's a movie, there's a soundtrack. Um, and I like the concept of using songs that resonate with my uh eras of life or stories to uh as a uh framework for how I would tell my story, like in a literal mixtape, uh a literary mixtape. But also because I am uh the product of a West African uh father and a white mother, uh part of my identity is that of being mixed race. So mixtape has the word mixed in it. Um so I like that there's a double meaning to the title. Um so uh telling it this way, um, I figured if I was gonna tell my story, I because a memoir is my favorite genre to read. Um, and I've read so many of them, uh, but I wanted, if I was gonna add mine to the many of memoirs to choose from out there, I wanted to do it in my own way. I joke that my alter ego is a comedian, a DJ, a part-time assassin, and a librarian. Um and most of those elements are present in mixtape and memoir. So I was it was really fun to create this project because you know, it is quite literally me in a literary form, but you get to see the different dynamics of my personality and culture um by experiencing it. So that's why mixtape was um a no-brainer for my title and concept.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

The the the book cover is very is very beautiful too.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Um I really like that. And your memoir is it addresses um the legacy of generational pain. Would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

And it um you often just you describe your father as disengaged. What do you can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah. Well, originally the copy for the back of the book I called him a deadbeat, but the uh publish the publisher was like, oh, that might be a little uh polarizing for people. Um so they changed it to disengaged. But um disengaged means uh, I mean, from a straightforward standpoint, I mean it takes two people to make a child. Um, and I know you said you've been reading my book, so you kind of know that uh the the way that I came to exist wasn't a planned situation. And even in my childhood, it I was very much shown like, hey, you were an accident, you weren't really wanted, stay out of the way, you're an inconvenience. But disengaged in a sense of, okay, I had a you know, my volatile white mother who was my primary caregiver, but disengaged father in that, well, you participated in my existence, but um you're not participating in the rearing of me, even with um, you know, there there's obviously different aspects that made that more difficult, whether it be the views that my my mother had about him or you know, uh my own attitudes toward him and things like that. But um I would say I I can honestly say disengaged is generous because I am, you know, at the time of this recording, I am I am a father of a six-year-old. Um and uh having experienced that of you know parenting my child, uh, I can't imagine putting myself in the shoes of my own father who didn't really try. Um, or to even have a child that exists in the world and not know and not be intricately involved in what their life becomes. Um so disengaged is uh it carries a lot of weight to it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

You you're right about feeling like an outsider in every room. Um, because you grew up in in Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

And what is it like as a as a biracial human being trying to go through this world?

SPEAKER_01 8:57

So a thing I've really come to awareness of in writing this book, but also in obviously doing you know interviews and things to talk about the book is that my identity as a biracial person was one that was um, I guess, chosen for me. Like if you think of a lot of the the discourse around race and the United States in particular, you've heard sayings like, you know, race is a social construct that was created, and we just subscribe to it. As a kid, okay, I'm born in '92, it's the 90s, it's Southwest Virginia. Um being born to a white mother, um, the disengaged West African father, so clearly I'm brown, um, but I am being raised in whiteness. So just by existing, by going to the Walmart, I'm black and my mother is white. There is a there's a difference there. I stand out. Um, and so before say, before anybody says anything, other people are gonna ask questions. Is that your mother? Uh, where's your father? Um, what are you? Um, you're not really black, you're not white. How do you have a white mother? These are things that um kids would ask and stuff like that. So, identity, which is why it's ingrained in the title of this book, mixed, was given to me before I even knew, right? And then add the complexities of uh I'm black being raised in whiteness, but my first racists were my white caregivers, my uh mother and my maternal grandmother, the the things they had to say about my African father and um that sort of stuff made my embracing of my blackness, my West African roots even more difficult, whether my father was a good guy or not. Um, when you villainize half of my identity before I even know who I am, rather than showing me who I am, um it causes issues. So I grew up black and raised in whiteness, also raised in racism, bullying, abuse, neglect, and myriad other things. But um it ended up in the book is structured in four sections. There's homeroom where you kind of get to see where who all these characters are, and then there's miseducation, um, unlearning, and then graduation. I use kind of education words, but it's also a nod to the miseducation of Lauren Hill, um, which is my favorite album of all time. But uh the the miseducation is a lot of that identity development, like being mixed, but also uh not being enough or not being the right kind of white, black, male, uh, masculine, or uh creative or whatever. You're not good enough. It's living in a world that says you're not good enough, you're doing something wrong, but seldom is there instruction or options of this might be who you are, let me support you, let me help you find out who you are. So mixed race is complex, and I think uh, or I know a reason that I wanted to write my story is because there's not a ton of narratives of uh mixed race um coming-of-age stories. Uh, my favorite would be like Born a Crime by Trevor Noah. He did a great job with his. But um I think anybody, even if you're not mixed race, can benefit from seeing uh these perspectives of somebody who grew up between worlds. Um that's the long-winded answer to your question.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

No, it's a beautiful long-winded answer.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Um, because I'm picturing you, you know, walking through Walmart with your mother and people saying, you know, unkind things to you, making you know, unkind judgments, like you said, is that your son? Where's your father? Um, and I'm sure as a young child you felt those looks. Um you could feel that there was some uncomfortable, some tension. Um in those moments, can I ask how your mother would react?

SPEAKER_01 13:31

I think you know, as you read my book, you'll see that my mother um, you know, is definitely a uh complicated human being. Um, her default was more so her own self-preservation than it was uh empathy. Empathy wasn't her strong suit. Um and I really can't say that there was a lot of care or concern for what I was feeling. Um what I can say from my own perspective, uh, you know, a generation removed, is that I have a daughter and she is mixed race. Um, it's different in a sense that I'm the brown one and she is the fair-skinned one. So, regardless, though, there's a contrast here. And um, while my daughter has my face and afro hair, she is very fair-skinned. So when she was a baby, or even sometimes now she's neurodivergent, and um sometimes we'll have like a tantrum or something like that in public. Um I have to worry about, and I it's coming from the parent being the black one in my case, of course, but I sometimes worry like, well, what if someone thinks that she's not my daughter when I'm trying to calm her down from a tantrum? Or what if it looks like I'm kidnapping her or something? Because I've been asked by people, whose kid is that? Um, or uh even someone insinuating, oh, are you babysitting? Um and uh for me it's bewildering. So I can't answer the question of what my mother must have been feeling because I don't think that she was uh uh being present as much or uh concerned with what my feelings were. It was very much a MO of children are meant to be seen and not heard, don't piss me off kind of thing. So um, but I can empathize from my own vantage point of being a parent, and that mixed race or blended race dynamic is something that I'm going to be um mindful of. Uh the good thing about my daughter though is that she knows she's gonna know where she comes from. I've already taken her to West Africa. Like she I read her children's books with diverse characters, you know, uh talking about her kinky texture hair. Like she's she's gonna be celebrated for her identity, and she's not going to wonder, like, oh, where do I come from? She's gonna see she has a black father, she has a white mother, um, and she's gonna see who she is. But she's I hope that she doesn't have to struggle with the world giving her an identity because I'm uh fostering um and showing her the many facets of her existence now. And also by having done this work in writing my own story, um, someday she can pick up my book and be like, okay, well, where does he come from?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Um so no, that's beautiful that you're able to approach it a different way with your daughter. You know, stopping it from stopping her from having the same experience that you had growing up. Um with it with it with a disengaged father. Um that's beautiful that you brought her to to Ghana. What was that like for you bringing her there?

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah, I took her to uh both Ghana and Sierra Leone. So my father is Sierra Leone, and even though I don't have a a bond with him, um, I did know that he immigrated from Freetown, Sierra Leone. So I took her on my third trip to the continent. Uh, this was this past December, and it was really cool because it was my daughter's sixth birthday when we were in Sierra Leone. So, mind you, I'm going to the actual place where my father came from for the first time, but I'm doing what my father never did for me, which was bringing my child to her roots, right? Um, and I'm doing it without a roadmap or knowing, right? That's why I went to Ghana a few times first, because I wanted to choose a space in West Africa to explore the continent, right? Um, but also it was uh it was a very uh full circle experience too, because last year um I got separated from my daughter's mother. And so it was the first time going to West Africa where, first of all, bringing my child with me, but second of all, um going through that process of okay, this era of my life is over, and I'm still out here um seeking uh connection and um my roots and and continuing to evolve as who I am and showing my daughter while doing it. And it was it was a very special trip uh to spend with my daughter and to know that even though it's just her and I, as far as you know, me now being a single dad, uh I still am because of what I've been through and what wasn't given to me, I am equipped through having done this work to show her um who she is. Her and I can travel the world, we can we can explore anything through a book. Um she has me, and um, she's not gonna have to struggle because she has me as a parent who is going to take the job very seriously. Um, and so she she won't have to feel as alone in the world as I did. Um, and then of course, that was uh almost like a uh a good period of time too, because obviously the book came out in March, you know, and now we have this like era of like promoting the book and all this other stuff. So her being able to see me uh pursue my storytelling and put my book out into the world while going through all of these life transitions of you know, separating homes and and all of these different things, she gets to see a parent who is still living and thriving despite uh life transitions that inevitably will come your way. So I hope that she's paying attention and that she's um she's picking up lessons that will help her with whatever adversities she faces someday.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

I can I can imagine these visits, even by yourself to to Ghana, were extremely powerful and at times painful um because you had to visit them without the help of your father.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

In in the process of writing about these memories and your upbringing and what you went through, were there memories that you felt were too hard to revisit?

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yes, there are two particular parts of the book that were the most difficult to write. And so uh I know you gave a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode, but I'll give one real quick here just for listeners. Trigger warning, uh, molestation. So if that is a big trigger for you, skip ahead like 30 to 60 seconds. Um, so the two parts that I'll talk about uh that were the most difficult to write, uh the first being uh track eight uh is when I share about how I was molested um as a young child. And um the interesting thing about writing this book is that I did not come to full awareness um and allow myself to feel the magnitude of what had happened to me until I was writing the book because I noticed a gap in kind of the timeline. And when I finally sat still enough to be like, hmm, what what's missing here? And then I was. Finally able to be like, oh yes, and then to write about it. Um it it took a toll, but also it was both cathartic and necessary because I'm a black man and I think a lot, you know, I'm a therapist too. So there are a lot of black men who go through being um abused in that way and they don't talk about it. So if I'm gonna tell my story, I need to um I I have the opportunity to do it in a way that will um help other people who have experienced something resonate. Um and that me to for me to be courageous in that way, I know that it's gonna be more meaningful. So that's the first one. The second one is track 34, uh, which is uh the song uh Rest in Peace, Captain Savajo. Um and that's later in the book. And that's a that's almost like a mini story within the bigger story. Um, and it was uh I was telling, uh talking about this uh uh this young man that I mentored who was a lot like me at that age, uh, you know, mixed race, single parent, you know, very similar. And um it was like at a point in my life where I, you know, saw parts of myself in somebody and I wanted to give back and to, you know, hopefully make his experience and in life a little bit easier than what I had. But unfortunately that that uh situation kind of crashed and burned and really hurt me. Uh that that chapter begins with the line, this is the story of how I made it to 31 years old before I got my heart broken for the first time. So um that that uh track was it's actually I think the longest uh track in the book, but also it's my favorite one, but it was also the most difficult one to write. That one that one required uh thousands of dollars of therapy and a lot of tears. But um it um it um it's one of my favorite tracks because it also is something that I know people will read and they will be able to connect with. Um and so uh those were two difficult eras of life to to talk about, but um, I didn't shy away from it because if you read memoir, you can tell when an author is holding back. And I don't want anyone to look at my book and say, oh, he held back on this. He he took the easy way out.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

So when you finally when you finally finished your your memoir, what was that feeling like when you like when you put the pen down or close the computer? What was that like for you to know that you revisited your whole childhood, your whole your whole self at that point, and you're able to write about it?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Uh what I'm about to say might feel like a whiplash for the listeners, but hear me out. So imagine being I'm sitting at my desk, I'm doing final little edits before sending this book to the publisher. I had signed a contract, and you know, the the ball is gonna get rolling. And literally, as I'm sitting at my desk, I'm blindsided less than 24 hours before my ex was going to move out and announced a separation of the marriage. Like, um, and so my moment of finishing this project was completely clouded by the fact that uh this type of betrayal um and had I not asked, like, why are you giving me the silent treatment or not talking much? I probably would have found out as the U-Haul backed up to the house. Um so I finished my book and of course sent it off to the publisher, but quite literally the end of this project of getting this book ready to go to the publisher then immediately overlapped and coincided with about a three-month like grief era that I went through to like process and adjust and of course pay out um you know the equity of the house and get everything arranged to you know be a single person again. Um that was what it felt like to finish writing this book. Um, and if you read the book, you wouldn't know that the marriage was going to end, but if you read to the acknowledgments, you get that kind of like uh foreshadowing in a way. So um the good thing about that is though, is that this book is all about unreciprocated relationships and how they hurt because they're unsustainable. So while that was the memory I have in finishing this book, the cool thing about this book is that I didn't know I needed this book when I wrote this book. So everything that I learned through writing this book, such as, you know, uh reciprocity and um not continuing to um, you know, do the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, those lessons from all of these other unreciprocated relationships and adversities and traumas and neglect and things like that actually gave showed me that I was already made of everything I needed to endure anything. So even though, of course, the ending of a marriage is hard, um, I had this book to show me exactly what I was made of. So um I'm fine now. Um, and so yeah, it wasn't like the oh, and then I closed my laptop and I just felt a sense of accomplishment or something. It was like, no, I closed my laptop and was blindsided by this person being like, oh, I'm moving out tomorrow. I was like, oh, wow. And then I had to go into you know taking care of my daughter and making sure that she could adjust to all of that and everything like that. So it wasn't easy, but in the end, I did not allow anything to derail the story, making it uh to where it needed to go because my my story is worthy of being told for sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

No, your story is definitely worthy of being told. And I'm I'm I'm sorry that you went through that at all, and definitely at that time when you're trying to go through all these painful memories and going through your childhood and painful events that you know you had again had to go through another painful event, which should have been like a celebratory time for you.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Um because that had to be man, that had to be crushing to some degree.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah, because you imagine when you're writing a book, you're like, oh, well, this person that I'm with will, you know, be at the launch party to celebrate with you, or um, you know, will help you, you know, stuff the envelopes with advanced copies of the book and different things like that. And it's like, oh, well, I'm doing this by myself. But the thing about my story is that I've always done everything by myself. I've always found a way to um know that I have what it takes and and know that I have everything within me to be okay. Um, even though it doesn't feel that way at the time. Um, so it was it was like bitter and sweet. You know, I accomplished something, but also the timing of it, and of course, you know, the the nuances and all of the the betrayal and pettiness on the other one's part. That'll be covered in the next memoir. Because I believe that if if you didn't want to be written about, you should have behaved better. So it gives me fodder for the next for the next book.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

No, that that's fair. I mean, your experiences are valid and they need to be, you know, told.

unknown 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

And because your story, your stories are are helping people. And I have to wonder, um, as you spoke about a little bit earlier, there aren't a lot of books speaking from a biracial point of view. And why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Well, I can give you a perspective from somebody who has uh interacted with mainstream publishing. Um everything is a business at the end of the day. We live in a capitalist country. I assume you live in the United States.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Um so everything is about is it marketable, is it palatable, can it be sold? So if you look at the New York Times bestseller list, most of those authors are white. Um they mainstream publishing greenlights a handful of diverse voices. Um and so there's that. Uh and as much as we like to call ourselves a melting pot, uh, we're very binary in a lot of ways. So imagine what I shared about identity of like, well, you're not black enough, you're not white, you're what are you? You know, all of these things. That's how publishing treats uh uh ambiguous identity. So um, and when you have a book that you've written and you go to say, try to find an agent, they will ask you questions such as why does your story matter? Um, what makes you stand out? What makes you different? What how do you tell your story that is gonna make a splash? What what how many followers do you have? And and these things, right? Right. Um and then imagine me, a person who's written the story and have you know laid it all out and then to be told via I I queried over 200 literary agents, and especially the what especially hurt was the black ones who rejected it, right? And they were like, oh, well, we don't feel like this is marketable, or um the concept is, you know, because I I didn't just write it in the cookie cutter like way that a memoir would be, I did it in my own way, and I wasn't I didn't want to compromise on my creativity. Um so I would imagine, in answering your question, why aren't there more mixed race narratives and stuff like that, is because they want to uh capitalism or mainstream publishing wants to know how does this fit into our uh biased machine? And if you're existing on in multiple spaces, imagine me, uh, you know, biracial, bisexual, um, you know, uh many different intersections of identity. Um, and then also writing my book in a uh a format that doesn't necessarily uh follow um all genre norms, they look at it as a liability. So um I published it anyway, um, and it worked out. But um I imagine explaining your existence as a mixed race, biracial, multi-ethnic person doesn't fit into the limited scope of what they want for like, oh, is this a race story? Is this a is this a uh you know social justice story? Like they want it to be simple, it has to be palatable. And the reality is that humans are complex. Um, so I imagine some people get hemmed up. Um the the publishing industry is also incredibly gatekeepy. So that's that's my industry answer for that one.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

That makes me sad when someone says to you when they want like what makes your story so special. You know, because that that's very degrading in a way.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

And that's before they've ever read a word that you wrote.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

That's in that's awful. I'm sorry that you had those experiences. Um because your voice is very much needed and you know, very much needs to be represented. And I can only imagine how many other mixed individuals, like you said, have gone through this experience and they've given up, whereas you were able to persevere. What what message do you have for individuals who want to get their story out but are being turned away like you experienced with the publishing industry?

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Yeah. Um one thing I would say, and this kind of goes back to a question you asked earlier, is that if you don't know who you are and love like and understand who you are, you're gonna fall victim to the systems around you telling you who you are. Thankfully, I've been a therapist and have been to therapy and and read voraciously, so I'm a big empathizer, right? Like I am a very whole person who um is not easily shaken or um, you know, shut down. Um, so when someone, you know, I see a you know, Google form on a publisher's website or uh agent's website that says, explain why your story matters. My internal uh narrative is already, I already know my story matters and it's great. Not from ego, but from I I am skilled at what I do. I didn't just wake up one day and decide to be a writer. Um in it, I I have the practice, I have the stories, I've lived the experience. Uh so I don't take it as uh personally with it because I also read so much and I know the uh limited small-mindedness uh and um select winners that a capitalist system uh allows. Um and there's more joy for me in knowing that I can be resistant and I can I can do it anyway. I don't have to, you know, wait around. Um and you know, I even think of like my black ancestors who at some point weren't allowed to read and write. Well, look at me voraciously reading over a hundred books a year and writing books, and being a therapist, and being a company of one uh, you know, uh business owner, and and you know, doing all of the things that previous generations may not have had the capacity or uh ability to do. Um, so I don't have to put too much weight into what makes your story matter. I already know it matters, it doesn't matter to you, and that's okay, because I've already internally known that I love, like, and understand myself, and I fought to get to that point. But also I don't have to be for everyone. Um, and I'm comfortable with that because anybody who's for everyone or any book that is for everyone is also a book that's very boring, because if it's for everyone, it's for no one. Um so I just believed in my own ability um and my creativity and those who um it's for, or those who will enjoy it, will enjoy it, and those who don't or feel that I have to convince them or give a full sales pitch in order to give it a chance, then that's that's not where I'm gonna put my energy anyway. So to answer your question, anyone who's listening who wants to tell their story, take some of that. Like um, you know, you're going to come up against an industry that tells you, okay, pitch yourself, prove why this matters, play our game. Um, and you you have to know who you are, otherwise you're gonna have to settle or you're going to um get your feelings hurt, you're gonna get beaten down by um an industry that wants you to fit into their mold. Um, so you have to use a lot of discernment and self-care when um doing this kind of work, but it's not impossible. Um, I like to think that uh Harriet Tubman, one of my favorite ancestors, uh she wouldn't have been too cool with somebody being like, oh, this is impossible. So um I'm not gonna tell myself that anything's impossible. And when my daughter says I can't do something, I tell her, don't say you can't do something, say you don't know how to do it yet, and ask for help. Um so that's that's the encouragement I would give to anybody feeling uh insecure or nervous about telling their own story.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

No, that's it's beautiful and it's powerful. I thank you for for sharing that. Um because as you as you as you've spoken about, you have all these you know damaging external definitions of what you should be, or what um what society will accept or want or what what's palatable. Um and I think it it really I think it takes away from what people really want to hear because people don't even know what what's being turned away.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Everything's controlled by algorithms and what the computers say will sell and what will increase the bottom line. Um and people who there's so many good stories that get hemmed up in the system that don't get to see the light of day or get the promotion that they deserve because I mean our algorithms are not uh tuned to equality, they're tuned to profits. Um and so you have to be mindful of that and uh resist that, but also do it anyway, um with without certainty of what the outcome will be.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

That's incredible. I admire your your perseverance and your resilience going through this journey, even just writing the book and trying to get it published. Thank you. Because um you've encountered obstacle after obstacle and being so strong and so centered in knowing who you are, which has been vital to your not only survival but growth. Um you mentioned that you did you did go to counseling, you have gone to counseling. Do you think that was key to your growth and helping you get where you are today in life?

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Absolutely. Um, I was in undergrad and I was supposed to be an elementary school teacher. I was studying psychology as my major, but I was uh minoring in elementary education, so I was supposed to be an elementary school teacher. And then I did some internships and I was like, I hate kids, so I can't do this. And so that was a bit of a crisis because I was a junior and I was like, um, well, if I was gonna be a teacher, what am I gonna do? And that plus the fact that I was a few years removed from the abusive, neglectful uh family of origin that I had grown up with, um, the uh the consequences of that upbringing started to surface, especially when I was getting to spaces of more safety. So I was having like 10 panic attacks a day and all of this. So I ended up in therapy for the first time and was diagnosed with panic disorder, and you know, got to, you know, get medication for the first time and started to understand like, oh, you that what you're feeling and what you've been through, and um these symptoms that you deal with every day and how you look at the world, there's some unlearning, there's some miseducation that you have been inundated with. And after starting to find stability through my own personal therapy, that also pointed me right in the direction of, well, I don't want to be an elementary school teacher, but why not go on down to the grad school and become a therapist? And so here we are today. I've been a therapist over a decade.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

So that's beautiful that you were able to make that pivot.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

And what is it like for you being a therapist today after all you experience? Like, how do you approach being a therapist?

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Yeah, I love being a therapist because it it really aligns with kind of that um uh bio that I give myself, which is therapist storyteller, because we're all a series of stories going. Going to therapy is telling your story, um, and and reframing and and unlearning and you know uh repackaging things, not to revise history per se, but um my love for storytelling, uh consuming stories, but also being a person who can sit with people in their stories and and do the clinical work as well is very important because I joke that I had 22 years of mental health training before I ever set foot in grad school because of what I went through growing up, right? Um so um being a therapist has been it continues to help me in my own healing because I have gotten it's like training a muscle to, it's not a science, it's an art and holding space, but also think of all of the like life-defining things that have happened in the past decade. Like we went through the COVID pandemic, we went through whatever this hostile government takeover situation is, um, you know, climate change and economies and wars and all of these things, and then things on the ground in our communities, police shootings, ice, all of this. Like these are things that we hear about as a therapist. I'm interacting with these things in real time every day. Um, I'm like one or two degrees of separation removed from anything you're seeing on the news. And the ability to have done the work, to be, you know, never trust a therapist who hasn't been to therapy, but also um to be in the spaces of working with people who are going through these things and having that perspective on the world, and then also um, you know, continuing to be a participant in society too. It's a balance of emotions. It's not just, oh, it's great, it's happy all the time. Sometimes it's overwhelming, sometimes it burns me out. Um but it's a give and take. It's it's a way that I can impact and have a ripple effect on uh uh my uh community. So um yeah, it's a very rewarding uh dynamic job. I every hour I get a new situation to um deal with, and I don't get bored. So I'm I'm grateful. And just a quick heads up, I have like maybe 10 minutes left before I gotta go.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Oh no, I appreciate it. Thank you. Um Yeah, you are you are a man in many directions. Um you're an author, you're a father, you're a therapist, you're a storyteller. Um I'm curious, you mentioned earlier in the interview your favorite album of all time was The Misseducation of Lauren Hill. Is there a song that you think would defines your life?

SPEAKER_01 47:20

That's a tough question. That'd be like asking me what my favorite book is. Um but if we're looking at the miseducation of Lauren Hill, that's a smaller sample size of to choose from. I actually use three of the songs from that album in the mixtape that frames this book. Um, I really love the song Lost Ones, which is the opening track to the album. In a lot of people don't understand this, but it's a diss track. But um everything about that song, uh, and the cool thing about the Miss Education is that it is resonated with me in very uh various times and eras of my life. It's timeless, like it just stands the test of time. But I like lost ones uh because um the the every word of it I just love. But like I'm thinking of like you might win some, but you really lost one. Um it's so silly how dumb, you know. And I'm thinking of that now. I'm like, uh, you know, even in this conversation that I've had, I've I've I've told you like there are agents who passed or who didn't even give me the time of day. There's relationships that I've been in that, you know, crashed and burned, quite literally a marriage that ended in all of that stuff. And the thing that I love about that song is that to understand, like, oh, you lost a good one, right? Is you have to, in order to be able to say that with confidence, you have to know your own value. I know my own value. I love like and understand myself. So anyone who crosses me or who disrespects me or who gets cut off or whatever, they're the ones who are gonna miss my presence. Uh, because when I get to the point of I'm done with somebody, it's because I knew that they didn't add any value to me. Um, and I know that I added immense value, and that goes back to that unreciprocated relationships will hurt you because they're unsustainable. They're taking more than they're giving you. Um, so I really love that song because it I think a lot of people can relate with what she's talking about there.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

No, I I do miss her. I do wish she there was more, there was more of her. Um I remember when that album came out, how much it landed with so many people. Um last question for you, because I don't want to hold you up. If you could give your younger self, that little boy who was lost and going through so much a message about his identity, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Well, I'm so glad you asked because at the very end of the story, I wrote that young boy a letter. And so I'll read it to you to close out. Um, June 21st, 2024, a commencement speech to a graduating class of one. John Zell, it's your 32nd birthday. So let me start by saying don't give up. Side note, uh, there's a couple of cuss words in this. Do you want me to censor them?

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Oh no, you're okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:22

Okay, cool. Okay. Let me start by saying don't give up. Don't waste your time trying to appear stoic. You do give a fuck. If it costs you your peace, it's too expensive. When people try you, they might just have to fuck around and find out. Continue to let books be your friends and mentors. They're often more reliable than people, unfortunately. If ignorance is bliss, then awareness is a burden. Choose the latter over the former. There are three rules of interpersonal relationships. One, speak your truth. Two, without being an asshole. Three, if you followed steps one and two, then you're not responsible for how someone reacts. The only person you can change is yourself. When it comes to friendships, choose four quarters over a hundred pennies. Spend less time worrying about whether people like you. Focus on loving, liking, and understanding yourself. This is the most important task that any human can embark on. As you do this, you will gravitate towards people who value you for who you are. You have a daughter, don't spank her when she misbehaves. That's a generational cycle that stops with you. Rest is your birthright. I know it's easier said than done when your mind is constantly attacking itself, but try anyway. You descend from royalty, continue to learn about your West African ancestry and culture, continue to practice yoga. Comparison is the thief of joy. Continue to deconstruct Christianity. It's been a tool used to oppress your ancestors, and that tradition has trickled down to you. There's some good to it, but a lot that won't serve you. Keep exploring this. Closure is a myth. Scales are for fish. Grief never goes away, it simply changes form. Protect your energy. You are still under construction, so be kind to yourself. You can't move forward if you're haunted by the past. So keep telling your story. Peace, John Zell.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Thank you so much for reading. That was beautiful. So powerful. And thank you for taking the time to have this insightful and powerful conversation with me. I greatly appreciate your time and your energy for this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

I really appreciate you. And for anyone who's looking where to purchase John Zell's book, Mixtape and Memoir, uh, all the links will be in the show notes. But you can visit his website at johnzell.co. There you will also be able to listen to other podcast features John Zell has has been on. I learned more about him. And I want to thank everyone for tuning in and for listening. And the ways to connect with me and follow along for uh clip snippets and show updates will all be in the show notes as well. And please remember that you don't have to carry what you came from and to keep telling your story because, like John Zell, you will never know who you help or who you reach. And we will see you next time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Thank you. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

You too.