Something in the Froth: Finding God in Everyday Messiness

Host Cat York interviews Paul Granger about his decades of full-time volunteer ministry, the challenges of inconsistent income, and the daily practice of loving God and loving others.

Paul shares honest stories of loss, perseverance, and small acts of faith—what he calls mustard-seed moments—and explains how to seek God in simple, practical ways amid real-life messiness.

The episode also highlights Paul’s community Bible study work, his creative book “Something in the Froth” and a call to show compassion without judgment.

For more information on Paul, including his Podcast “Where Did You See God”, his ministry work and to pre-order his newest book “Something in the Froth” please visit:

Where Did You See God.com

To keep up with Paul Follow along on Facebook:

wheredidyouseeGod

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hello, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast. This is where we share honest stories of resilience and recovery. I'm Kat York, and my mission is to hold a supportive, honest space for candid discussions on addiction, healing, and breaking the mold. Whether you're exploring sobriety, navigating challenging family cycles, or working toward finding self-love and improvement, these conversations are for you. As a gentle reminder before I introduce our guests for today, the Call Her Cat podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. The views expressed by the host and the guests are their own personal opinions and do not constitute professional advice. Please consult with a licensed professional for any medical, legal, or psychological concerns. Joining us today is Paul Granger. Paul has dedicated two decades to full-time volunteer ministry, serving in inner city ministries since 2005. His focus is on shepherding others as they seek to love God and love others. Paul currently serves with Youth with a Mission in Virginia, is president of New Visions Civic League, and facilitates a community Bible study. His core mission is to cultivate an authentic, accessible space to content, conversation, and community for everyone to process the difficult questions of life. Paul is honest about his faith, but values connection and conversation regardless of one's belief. He is a content creator, having authored over 24 books, and he hosts the popular podcast Where Did You See God? As a husband and father of three, he believes each day offers opportunities to love God and love others at home, locally, and globally. And with that, I would like to introduce Paul to everybody. Hi, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Hi, Kat. It's great to be here. I'm I'm excited to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Is did I miss anything in your no, you captured that well.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Good. Um, so I guess let's start with. Can you tell us a little bit about uh maybe things we don't know about you? Um like how your faith journey started, um, what led you down this path?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah. Well, I mean, I grew up uh going to church. I mean, I was baptized as an infant, so church was always a part of my life, and my mom has always uh had a strong and authentic faith, and that's been a grounding foundational thing for me. But realistically, sometimes it can actually be harder to have an authentic faith when you grow up in an environment where it seems like everyone has that same faith because you might take for granted what it actually means to believe what you're saying you believe. And that's a question that I had to confront when I was in middle school, because out of the blue, I found myself having this, you know, exist not an existential crisis, but hit with this deep, deep question of if I'm saying I believe in God, what does that actually mean? If I'm saying I'm a Christian, how does that actually impact my life? Are these things just things that I say and labels that I wear, or is it something that I believe so fully that it shapes who I am today and who I will become? And I found myself really wrestling with the idea of what does this mean for right now in the future? And I decided that I wasn't interested in just wearing a label or just doing or saying things because others are doing or saying it. Uh, and so I found myself leaning into this direction of I want to actually live out the things that I say I believe, and I actually want to pursue this God that I say exists. And that has led into what's basically been uh a lifetime of ministry. And when I say that, it's not just vocational, but one thing I've come to learn is how do I live out uh ministry as a lifestyle rather than it just being a job description or projects? And particularly over the last couple of decades, uh it's been a constant learning experience of what it means to do what is core in scripture. Scripture says several places that the most important thing is to love God and love others. Well, what does that actually look like practically? What does that look like in my life? But what does that look like in the choices I make and the things that I say? And I found that every day is an opportunity to honestly explore that and to honestly live into it or not, and then to process that. And so I have served in functional vocational ministry roles, but over the last several years, since 2018, I've functionally been full-time volunteer ministry. In other words, I haven't gotten a traditional paycheck since 2018. And my life has been marked by uh, I'd say, inconsistency. I could not give you a clear job title nor job description. Uh, every year, every month, every week, sometimes, sometimes every day has been different and unexpected. And yet there has been this consistency in my desire to use my life from wake up to fall asleep, uh, to try to authentically love God and love others. And in my neighborhood, there are many, many, many opportunities. I live in an urban context, and so I'm seeing neighbors every day. I'm engaging uh the community uh every day. And so it makes that decision to love others even more important. Uh, because otherwise I could have a detrimental effect.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

No, that's you highlighted uh something that I think uh we cling to like a lot in our societies, which we have to know all the answers. Um like because like you said, you haven't your job title is constantly evolving. Um your paychecks are inconsistent. And some people would be like, oh my god, how does he live like that with as a husband, as a father? Like, how does he say that? You know, and it's like, you know, and that's it, and I'm sure that is not without um, is it safe to say I should say that it's not without um you know fear sometimes on your part?

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Oh yeah. I mean, it's it is challenging. Um this past year alone, 2025 and 2026, has definitely been the hardest financially. A lot of things changed for a lot of people, but in addition to that, and expenses getting more expensive, uh, somebody totaled our car, our van in the middle of the night. Now we have a car payment when we had already had the van paid off. Uh, there are a lot of unexpected things that have happened, shifts in you know, folks who have been supporting me having to lower or stop giving. And so the income and expense uh breakdown has has been more intimidating uh lately. And and it's tricky because we can look at the here and now expenses and also know where income is and isn't coming from and project out and say, unless something major happens, we're gonna be in ruin. Uh but then I I sometimes remember to remind myself that I've been functioning in this way since 2018. For two of those years, my wife didn't get a paycheck. So neither of us had a formal paycheck coming in. And if we had made it for one year like that, that's one thing, and you might be able to explain it. Uh but I it's it it's the longer this goes, the harder it is to just brush it off as luck or strategic planning or or any of that. I mean, there's a lot of impossible things that have happened. And so I'm I'm living in this place where from a human vantage point, from human logic, there is there's ample reason to be afraid. Right. But when I started this, one of the things that I sensed very clearly from God was an invitation to not operate out of financial fears, to not make decisions because I need money or I need this, that, or the other. And to rather live as though if he's actually real, what could that look like? But yeah, it's it's a day-to-day thing. Um, and it's a it's a recurring choice uh to lean into faith, particularly in the times when faith seems the most foolish thing I could have.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

No, I mean I've I have I've lately been, you know, trying to redefine like what success actually means. Um, because I feel like just as a society and as a whole, it it's gotten very skewed and almost kind of unhealthy.

unknown 9:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Um, almost unattainable in some ways.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Um where do you believe um as Christians or non-Christians, we got so misaligned with our definition of success?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's there's a few things that come to my mind. Um, one, culturally, there's the question of what is valued, and money is valued, wealth is valued, uh having uh a good reputation is valued, security is valued, comfort is valued, and so success for us can be defined by what is culturally valued, and it might not even be what we value, but because we live in the culture, we feel this pressure to lean into it. And so the most successful people are the ones with the most money, uh, the you know, the best reputations, the most comfort, the most vacations in a year. Like that, that is success. And you can make a strong point for that. But I think the other piece tied to that that leads us to get misaligned is we do not understand the extent to which we live and think through our bubbles. Uh and so this was part of what I touched on earlier in my faith story is I grew up in a bubble where Christianity was the norm. Most people I encountered were Christians, Christianity was accepted, and and so I just lived and functioned as how that bubble existed. But when I started to press against that, I realized that uh one, I needed to understand who I was and what I believed. But then as I got outside of that bubble, I began to realize the wisdom in that. Because there's a lot of how and who I could have functioned uh if I had just remained in my bubble mindset that would not have meshed well in a lot of the environments where I found myself. Um and now, you know, I mentioned in the neighborhood I live in, there, I mean, there's a wide range of demographics. So there's been a lot of gentrification. So there are definitely some uh wealthy upper class uh demographics represented. But historically, due to a number of factors that were beyond neighbors' control, uh, we also have a high level of poverty. And as a result uh of many factors as well, high levels of addiction. And so in this community, I mean, even within the you know, a few block radius, many, many, many different bubbles are represented, right? Many understandings of what life is supposed to be. And what's hard is I think this is the third thing I'll throw in. Uh, we always tend to compare up rather than be mindful holistically. And so I'll look at my life and then I'll think of anyone who whose lives look better than mine, and make the assumption that they are better, and that's where I need to get. That's what I need in order to be happy in life. And the reality is, is the fact that you and I are talking on microphones, we are, you know, in the the small demographic of wealthiest people in the world, even if we don't feel wealthy. Like I don't feel wealthy right now, but I've got lights on, I have a glass of clean drinking water, and I've got electricity going through my house. Uh, and there are many people in the world that don't have any of those things with any kind of consistency or security. And so that's one thing I've learned as well is how can I have a more holistic mindfulness around the experiences of everyone I encounter rather than just having these this bubble mindset, this default understanding of how life is supposed to be. Because uh, there are a lot of people that have a whole lot of wealth that are not happy. And there are a lot of people in the world that have nearly nothing that will sometimes meet a stranger and and cook up the remaining bit of their food and joyfully practice hospitality, right? Like, so what brings life value, uh what success actually is, is not as clear cut as we assume because life is about more than money and things.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah. No, and you you raise a good point. We um we try to the term I hear is like level up all the time. You know, and in leveling up, I don't think we often look around us.

unknown 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Um you know, I gotta get the next thing or the newest car or the you know, I gotta have an another zero on my on my bank account. Yeah. Um as you pointed out, a lot of these individuals who have all these things, comforts don't end up being very satisfied in life. Um and one thing I am curious about, because you mentioned that in the community that you live, there's very different demographics.

unknown 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

So how do you in your ministry and as a human being, how do you manage the tension between God removing hardships and God allowing the hardships?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, that's that's a hard one, right? Because we assume a good God would never allow bad things. And and I think one thing I've come to learn is you know, if I'm gonna choose to believe Scripture, Scripture talks about a reality beyond the here and now, about uh this eternity in the here and now, this life that I'm living, however many decades it will be, you know, scripture talks about it as though it's like a blade of grass that withers and blows away. Uh put another way, because all I know is the here and now, the hardships, the moments, the experiences seem huge. But it let's say I even live to be a hundred. The a hundred years of experiences is not even a blip on a radar of eternity. Uh the scripture talks about this. Uh Paul's talking to this group of people, and he says, you know, our light and momentary troubles are accomplishing uh something greater. I can't remember how the passage goes, but he's talking about light and momentary troubles. But what he's referencing is them being persecuted, them going through extreme hardship, stuff that they would not have considered light and momentary. They experienced it heavy and right now. And so I think this is part of it is uh there if God is real, right, if he is doing something greater than just our here and now lives, then that means how we understand our hardships might be limited. Now I say that having you know had moments this week where I was really frustrated about things. And so it's it's this constant balance. Uh, but when you encounter somebody, you know, that's going to come across as just like theological platitudes. Because somebody that's in hardships doesn't want to hear that the hardships are like momentary. And so I think, you know, the core of your question is how does how do I respond to that? How does someone that you know is maybe working for a ministry or a church respond to that? Unfortunately, uh, there are a lot of answers to that question. And I think how some people respond to it is they just avoid it altogether. If they see somebody on the sidewalk that they decide might not be a safe person or might ask them for something, they might cross to the other side of the street. There are a lot of people who identify as Christian that will lean into avoidance, sometimes subconsciously, but sometimes consciously. Um there are many churches and ministries that uh aren't trying to avoid, but their mindset is on this person has problems or they might be the problem. And so there is almost this like uh protective approach, you know, kind of keep you at arm's length because I don't know what you might do. I I love you, I want to be there for you, but I don't know what you might do. Um then there's a demographic uh where it's uh they genuinely want to love and serve. They're not trying to have any kind of negative perception, but they still have in their mind what this person should become and what should happen of their challenges. And so what happens if that doesn't change? You know, we're talking about addiction. Well, anybody who really has seriously navigated or researched the topic of addiction knows that it's not something you can just like read a book and you're good, or take a pill and you're good, or do any kind of thing and it's solved forever. It is a lifelong journey of navigating it. Well, that can be hard for well-meaning people who are like, I've been, you know, hanging out with this person for years and it just seems like nothing has changed, and so they kind of give up. Where I've tried to position myself is to release my expectations of who somebody should be or what somebody should do, because that's not my job to mold and shape people. If I believe in God, that's that's his thing, that's his department. The only thing he has qualified me for is to be, I was gonna say is it's not even to love, it's to be a conduit of love. Because I know my ability to love is gonna be limited. That word itself, we don't know what that means most of the time. I love pizza or I love a bagel, or right, like it, but if I position myself so that God can love through me, sometimes that means God can love in spite of me, even if I don't want to interact with someone, or I am scared of someone, or someone has taken advantage of me before. And so I think this is all of this ties into, you know, we're we're not always aware of how we are engaging with people in situations, and we're not always aware of the expectations we carry. And I'll tell you what, the saddest part for me is Christians should be really good at this. I mean, if we are living into what the Bible says, and if we are being to be a Christian is supposed to be to be a Christ follower, and if we're following his example of how he loved people, like we should be the best at this. But I facilitated community Bible study, and I cannot tell you how many times somebody has walked in and ended up sharing, like, I don't feel comfortable in church, or I went to a church and they kicked me out, or like it is it is a surprisingly and heartbreakingly common thing for someone who is in any number of hardships to feel like the church and Christians are not safe, and it should not be that way, but it often is.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, no, it is, and you highlighted a good point that sometimes people don't want to, you know, stray away. Um they they feel maybe prejudged, and you highlighted a good point that it's not up to you to to mold somebody. Yeah, you know, you're you're a conduit of of God's love and his message, and that's not always an easy place to be, I can imagine. Yeah, um because maybe because we're still a human, we could have visions for and expectations of what you believe a person's capabilities are, you know, but we don't know their journey or you know what they go through on a day-to-day basis. And you know, and from what I read about your story, you know, it takes a lot of faith to walk the path that you walked. I mean, as you've shared, you you're you're thriving without a consistent paycheck, a consistent job title. Um you ministry to to everybody. And I Curious with all the roles that you have, how do you cultivate a practice of seeking God in simple ways? You know, outside of the complexity of ministry and Bible study.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

And it, you know, and it doing that is so important because as you noted, um, I mean, whether somebody's a a Christian or not, whatever they believe, we all know what it is to have things in our lives, projects in our lives, that can become overwhelming or can at the very least demand a lot of our attention. And if the thing you are doing is something that is actually outside your ability and power, even understanding, then man, that could become crushing. And so here I am stepping into these spaces of ministry and often encountering stuff that is beyond definitely beyond my pay grade. Uh, but also my experience, my knowledge, my comfort beyond all of it. And so if I don't have uh regular touch points with what is meant to be the source, then I'm gonna drain myself and I'm gonna burn out, and that's gonna be it. But the problem is, is a lot of times uh Christians will rely on some of the high-level things. So I'll give you an example. Growing up and through college, I would always hear people talk about uh quiet time. You have to have your quiet time. And for those who haven't heard that phrase, what it basically means is you take 15, 30, 45 minutes an hour where it's just you and God, and you got your Bible. Maybe you listen to some music and you pray, and and it's great. That's that's a it's a great thing. It could be a really fruitful thing. Uh and I I tried to carry that out. It's it can be hard to keep a rhythm and a schedule, but man, I was doing it, and then my first child was born, and I realized, oh, I can no longer control quiet, nor can I control time. When you are single or when you have a lot of control over your life, you could shape out these pockets. But man, when you got an infant that's awake every couple hours and screaming, and you can't, like, you can't set aside this quiet time. And and there is this pressure then of, oh, well, that's how I connect with God. I I can't do it anymore, so I guess I don't connect with God. Like we don't say it like that, but we function like that. And so I had to learn what does it look like to embrace even the small moments, the small opportunities, the small things. Because again, we talked about a success earlier. Small is is not good. You know, we want the big displays, the giant leaps of faith. But man, sometimes the toe nudge forward is more than enough. And that infant I mentioned, he grew up and continued to be disruptive, and then he got a sister and a brother. So my house is rarely quiet. I have very little control over my time. But what I can do is when I'm feeling the pressures of life or I'm navigating something, I can go step out, sit on the porch, and maybe it's just a minute of sitting with God. Maybe it's not even praying. Maybe I'm so frustrated with God that I'm not even saying anything to him, but I'm just sitting aware that he exists, right? Like and sometimes those tiny little moments um can be so restorative. And so that's something, yeah. I've uh I think the other thing for me is reshaping my understanding of prayer because growing up, prayer is a clear you you start and you stop. So dear God, and then you end with amen. And then whatever's in the middle, you ask for something, maybe you say something nice to him, and then that's it. And then you go about your business until you need to talk to him again. Yeah. And and that's just not what I believe prayer is meant to be. I think prayer is all not just not meant to be like treating God as a vending machine, but the whole purpose of it is authentic connection. And if God is present and active, that means in any given moment I don't have to do the start and stop. Like I could just interact with them. So I've tried to learn to do that as well, like in the midst of meeting somebody new or encountering a hard situation, recognizing that God is already listening. So I can just, I don't even have to verbally say anything. Like I could just think, you know. And so I think, yeah, you're right. Like even for someone who's not a Christian, this thing, this reality still can be true of how are we creating these small moments of restoration, these small moments of just breathing. I mean, this is therapists, counselors will will talk about this often because it's a reality. And and if God does exist, then how much more so if doing that can also give you access to something beyond yourself?

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

And I mean, I was I was looking at your website, and like I like I mentioned in the bio, you have 24 books. Um, you know, you you also host a podcast. Uh, the ministry and uh being a father and a husband. And what strikes me about your story is how you know you you say you don't have a consistent, reliable income per title. And I'm curious like what you what you mean when you say no God doesn't care about your job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah. Um and sometimes when I say that, uh, you know, people uh it kind of rubs them the wrong way because they're like, well, to say God doesn't care about something seems odd. And and and I think, you know, what I want people to understand is I'll put it this way. One of my last formal roles was leading uh internship programs, summer and year-long. And particularly for the year-long ones, I'd have these young adults who had just graduated, and they would come in with this deep, deep stress around what am I supposed to do with my life? And they're coming into a ministry setting. So on top of their own desires and on top of their parents' and others' expectations of them, they also feel this pressure to figure out what God wants them to do, what job God wants them to have, and they would get so, so anxious about this. And what I had come to learn in my own vocational journey is that sometimes it's not that God has a specific job title or organization that he wants somebody to be at, and he hopes we crack the code and figure it out. Like you think deep down what God is looking for is for us to seek him. You know, there's this passage that says, seek first the kingdom of God, his righteousness, and all these things will follow. And the when the that job that I had right before it was a job that I loved. I was a team director at a Salvation Army Boys and Girls Club, and I won't get into the whole story, but through a series of events, I found myself having to decide between staying there and transitioning over to this other ministry. And it was hard. I didn't know what to do, and I prayed and I prayed, and I wanted God to give me the neon sign, and he didn't. And instead, I felt like 51% sure of this other space, and that felt insufficient. But then I realized like, what if I'm putting pressure that God is looking for me to figure out this very specific thing? What if instead he just wants me to seek him in the decision that I make? And whatever decision I make is will be fine because it's not about the job, it's about something deeper, it's about loving God and loving others wherever I land. And so when I lost that job, I navigated that again because as you noted, you know, as a husband and a father and homeowner and all these things, uh, unemployment's not a good look and it's irresponsible. And and so there was this high pressure when I lost that job from people that you need to get a new job as soon as possible. But then meanwhile, God was saying don't operate out of financial fear. And that was August of 2018. It wasn't until the spring of 2019 that I stepped fully into uh full-time volunteer ministry. But again, that didn't come with a paycheck. And so in that space, like I did do some job hunting and I did apply to things, but that's what I came to realize even more deeply is God could give me a different job. I could find myself a job, but meanwhile, I was able to love those around me in deeper ways because it wasn't bound to specific expectations of an organization, specific financial constraints. Um, I would just show up each day and say, All right, all right, God, here I am. What am I, what am I doing today? And so I I think that is the short answer to the question is God cares less about our job title and more about how we are living into the identity he gave us wherever we are, whatever our responsibilities, which means that sure, somebody can be a pastor or a missionary or a ministry worker, and that can be great. Um, somebody could be in a deeply secular job that has nothing to do with God. I even consider like maybe I could go just be a garbage collector. Like that's straightforward. Um like it doesn't matter if your job is, you know, quote, spiritual or not. Uh you know, whatever we do can be an opportunity to love God and love others. And sometimes the unexpected spaces is where the most profound things can happen. And sometimes the people in the expected roles uh are falling short. Not sometimes, oftentimes.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

No, you highlighted something that I think is so um we touched on something, and you said when you're making the decision on which way to go between the two positions, what if God, what if God was asking you just to make a decision and he'd see you through it?

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

You know, because so often, like you said, we look for these neon signs. Like, give me an answer, show me something.

unknown 32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

And we're waiting for like that that God pull, you know, like like, no, go this way, no, go that way. What if it's more of just about taking a leap and having God see you through it?

unknown 32:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

You know, and and you like you see you bl you you say something that I like as that God is God and God is good. Can you expand on on that meaning as it relates to that trust factor and kind of taking those leaps of faith?

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah. So you know, as I've read scripture, those are two things. That's the consolidated form of two things that I feel like scripture is very clear about who God is. So God is God, He's powerful, He's all-knowing, He's omnipresent. I mean, He is bigger than we can grasp. And then God is good, but one way that Scripture describes God is God is love. Not just God is loving, but God is love. Uh and so these can be nice uh theological things, but in everyday life we can really struggle to believe that those things are true. As we've talked about before, how can God be good if bad things are happening? If he allows bad stuff, how can he be loving? And if maybe it's you know he's loving but he just can't deal with it, well then he's not powerful. Well, for me, uh the way I really came to understand this more deeply was not theologically, but uh a tremendous step of faith. And there's a much longer story I could tell, but the short version is uh my father passed away when I was five, and I was too young to understand what that meant. But it did put in me this desire to one day be a father myself and to live longer for my kids than my dad was able to live for me. And so when my wife and I became pregnant in 2011, uh I was incredibly excited. I mean, we were both so, so, so excited. So you can imagine how heartbroken we were when at the first appointment in nine and a half weeks, the nurse looked over and said, There's no heartbeat. And I remember initially feeling the shock, which was followed by this deep, deep sense of this invitation to prayer. And I thought of verses like Lazarus being raised from the dead, Jesus coming back from the dead, verses that say things like, If you ask anything in my name, it will be given to you. And I wondered, what if what if this is an opportunity to pray for our baby to live? It felt crazy, but at the moment I was like, I felt this strong sense, yes, we should we should do this. And so we asked uh if there's anything we need to do at the moment. The doctor said we could set an appointment for two weeks and and come back and talk about it then. And my wife and I prayed harder than we had ever prayed, and friends joined us praying harder than we'd ever prayed. We also felt the pressure of uh are we praying the right way? What if I pray and then I do something bad? And does that negate it? Like, and so as this really tends two weeks because there's no way for us to know if it worked or not. And we get to the appointment and uh no change. But then I'm like, well, maybe this is the opportunity to really lean into faith because then we'll really know it's a miracle. It wasn't just uh an error on the nurse's part where the baby was just turned the wrong way, or like now if we pray this that it and the baby's alive, it's gonna change everything. Um and what I realized is uh stepping into that level of of crazy faith, uh I would not be able to go back to the same way afterwards. Because either one, the baby lives, and I'm gonna have to pray differently from now on because I know that prayer works, I know that miracles happen, our baby lived. Like I I can no longer pray the same way. But if if our baby didn't live, I'd have to really contend with what does that mean about God? Because I prayed, I asked, and he didn't do it. And so we go to the they they set an appointment, and we go back, and this was the final moment. Um and nothing changed. Uh our baby was gone. And I realized I was at the crossroads now. I had to make a decision of what I felt about God, and what I felt was he didn't show up. I felt confused, angry. Logic said that God must not be God and must not be good because our baby didn't live. But something within me realized I had another opportunity, a crazy one, that instead of throwing away my decades of seeking God and learning who he is and experiencing him, um, I could choose to still believe that God is God and God is good, even though it didn't feel like it, even though I couldn't see it, even though I couldn't understand it. Put more succinctly, it was an opportunity to recognize that just because I don't understand something doesn't mean that it is, isn't. You know, when I was a kid, there was a lot that I believed that now as an adult, I realized how off I was, how confused I was. And so what could it look like to lean in faith that these things are still true? And it was that act of choosing to believe that God was God and choosing to believe that he was good, regardless of everything else, that was one of the first moments of really, really, really stepping in faith because it cost me everything. Other times, like it didn't cost me as much, but this this cost me everything. And that became the framework of everything after uh how I understood God, how I experienced God. Because the other piece of it too, and this is a hard one, is if we're honest, sometimes we are all on board for believing in God insofar as he does the things that we want him to do. And if he doesn't do those things, then we don't want him. And that's the story of so many moments in scripture. But in that scenario, if I'm setting the terms and demanding something of God, I'm not actually believing God's God, I'm believing I am, because I'm the one who deserves to set the terms and I'm the one who deserves to get what I want. Um, but if I choose to forego what it is I really want and think I deserve for the sake of loving this God, now I'm actually starting to actually love him, actually choose him. And so, you know, all that being said, um, it is still something I have to come back to on a daily basis because it's not like all hardships disappeared after that. We had another miscarriage. Um, but we've also had three kids since then. I've had amazing opportunities to see him through different forms of ministry, and I've experienced a lot of uh hardship in ministry, even toxic ministry environments. And so it's a day-to-day decision uh to choose to still believe that even if it seems like things are not going the way that I want them to go, because I'm choosing each day to learn what it means to not make life about myself, to make it actually about loving God and loving others.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

No, that's beautiful, and I I am very sorry for losses you and your wife you know incurred while trying to build your family, because that's heavy. That's that's very heavy.

unknown 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Um and because that takes almost like a radical faith, some would say.

SPEAKER_04 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

You know, and for you um to not turn your back on God, that's a powerful testament to how hard you work at your faith.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Well, and I'll even I'll even say to that, because somebody could be listening and think, oh wow, man, he's such a good Christian. I could never do something like that. I'm gonna I'm gonna be clear, I I couldn't. Like I was I was in such a low, hard place. You know, it was not a matter of me being a strong Christian or having uh a lot of intellectual understanding or a lot of physical strength or mental strength. Like it was at that moment, it was it sounds like a leap, but functionally for me, all I was able to give was the toe nudge. But but that little thing was enough. This is why Jesus talks about faith like a mustard seed can move mountains. Because we'll look at, we'll hear these stories of profound faith and we'll note how amazing those are while also acknowledging that it's so out of reach for us. But mustard seed faith is the slightest bit of actual true faith. Um, the slightest, slightest bit is more powerful than like the most theological mind, the most ministry experience. And mustard seed faith is accessible to anyone. That's why scripture often taught it says God, you know, chooses the lowly and the unwise and the et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because worldly thinking is the strongest people and the smartest people are the ones who get the most done. And then God kept choosing people that everyone else had written off, thought less than. And when those people suddenly accomplished great things, that meant, oh, it wasn't that person. There must be something more. But imagine for that person who knew who they were, who knew uh how unable they were, and to see powerful things come through them, man, they they would know that it was God because they're like, I definitely could not have done this. And so that's I do want to encourage people. Um, what I was able to access wasn't because of me, but was my my slightest bit of willingness to to to toe-nudge forward, and God said, I can work with that.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

And that and that's beautiful because as as as you stated, some things you we simply can't explain. You know, it's above our pay grade. Yeah, you know, we don't know God's grand or plan or what his true mission for us is and I'm curious how these experiences shape the way that you show up in all avenues, whether it be um through your ministry, through your podcasts, through your books. Um How have these experiences, these hardships, shaped how you provide like these authentic, accessible spaces for talking and processing God?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah, yeah. The normal way it's supposed to work is I'm supposed to become uh an expert in my field and I'm supposed to create all this stuff and guide people through it. And and that's not, I'm not saying that's that's bad, but for this specific field that I'm navigating where I know it's not meant to be about me, not meant to be in my power, the worst thing I can do is make it about me and my power and my intellect and wisdom. And unfortunately, we see a lot of this within Christianity, whether it's pastors or theologians, or it's not uncommon for someone to suddenly, without realizing it, make it about them. And it's a hard thing to pull back from that. Which means the most important thing I can do is lean into not just love but humility. Uh, I love John 13. It's the story of Jesus when it was like the eleventh hour. He knew things were about to go down that were going to be the most horrendous experience, not just for him, but for anyone. And he could have done anything in that moment when he's with his disciples and wanted to convey the most important things. And what he choose to do was to humiliate himself, take out his outer garment, and wash their nasty, nasty feet. Because they were nasty back then. And he was doing something that he should not have been doing. You know, a servant should be doing that, or someone washes their own feet. And the disciples even pushed back on him. Peter is like, You can't do this. But Jesus, after he finishes, says, Um, you know, I've set an example that I now want you to follow, just as you've seen me do it, I want you to do it. And he was conveying an example of love and humility. And so that's how I want to show up. And, you know, part of what that requires is releasing my understanding of what should happen and how it should go. Uh my mantra for years has been holding things loosely. It doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion, but it means I need to be ready to drop that if God's doing something different. But the other piece, and this is what's so hard for those that are in ministry or that are pastors, is uh I have to be okay with it not being about me at all, that I might not get any credit or acknowledgement for a lifetime of serving, right? Uh one of my favorite stories coming from community Bible study, and this taps into two uh something that I was just saying about how we can look at people who are better Christians or stronger faith and think we could never arrive there. Um, in community Bible study, I call myself a facilitator, not a leader, uh, for two reasons. One, uh, I want everybody to understand that, you know, God and the Holy Spirit, like they're the ones that are leading this. I'm just I'm just here to facilitate. But two, uh, at any given point, anybody around that table, no matter what they bring to the table, can be the one through whom some amazing things happen. There's one day a woman came in, and and she was one of those folks who quickly let us know that she has never felt welcome in a church. Uh, and she wasn't even sure why she was walking through our door, but she saw something and felt like she should come in. But she was really hesitant, partly because, and she acknowledged later that she was high at the time, and she felt like she shouldn't be there. She wasn't allowed to be there. Uh, but everybody in the room was deeply welcoming and deeply loving. And she starts sharing this story of how of not just of addiction, but the things that she ended up doing because of the addiction. Um, choices she made that not only made her feel so awful about herself, but we're setting a she felt a bad example to her daughter. And and I'm sitting there, and one, I had had my plans for what we could talk about, but I held it loosely. I was like, all right, I guess we're not going on that Bible passage today. But two, I felt like I wasn't sure what I'm supposed to say in this moment. And it was almost like God was saying, I don't want you to say a thing. So I just stayed quiet. And then this guy who had been coming for a couple of months, he's the one who was really started to lead the time. And he wasn't trying to lead it, but he resonated with her because a lot of what she described was his story as well. He was able to understand the deeper things she wasn't naming about addiction because he was wrestling with it too. He had just been talking about it before she had walked in. And the way he was able to communicate love to her and value to her, when he got up and gave her a hug, everything he communicated, it was one of the most beautiful displays of sharing the gospel that I had ever seen. And a lot of times when we think about sharing the gospel, it's like here's the specific things you should say and who you should say it to and why. He didn't have any agenda other than he saw her. He saw her in a way that I couldn't, and he loved her genuinely, and he knew that God loved her, and he just wanted everything within her, just wanted her to know that she was actually loved. This is somebody who felt like he was disqualified for ministry. In fact, there are a lot of churches and ministries that would say he's disqualified because he had just gotten out of prison months before. He had things on his record, he still had addiction issues. In fact, uh not long after that, he relapsed, right? Most people would write him off. God chose to use him, not me. Not the guy who had been a Christian all his life, who had gone to a Christian university, majored in religion and Christian ministries, was facilitating that you know space. I was not the one who God chose to use. God chose to use someone who didn't even think that he would be the leader that day. And so that's I that wouldn't have happened if I had come in with pride or come in with this is how we're supposed to do this. In fact, that space wouldn't exist if I modeled it after how Bible studies are supposed to go, because Bible studies are supposed to be focused, you know, calm, everyone's paying attention. That is not the marker of our space. It is one of the most disruptive spaces. There's cursing in that space, there's interruptions in that space. But man oh man, have I seen God work in beautiful ways in that space, and it's given me a longing for more spaces that identify as Christian to model these elements of actual humility, of actual love, of knowing God can work through whomever he wants.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

What a beautiful moment that must have been. Life isn't always organized and clean. And here was this individual coming in, she was hurting and struggling, and someone who could relate to her was the voice that reached her that day. And that's that's I think it's a beautiful testament that we all can be a conduit of God, you know. We don't always have to have the particular words or verses or or be a uh you know, a theologian. We can just be kind and show love.

unknown 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Yeah. And sometimes, you know, you asked a question earlier around why God allows hardship. Uh sometimes it's because he knows that there is something greater that's gonna come as a result of it. And that it's a hard thing to hear because again, a hardship feels bad. But uh, I'll give you an example of something that I was thinking through recently. There's a hardship that I've been navigating, that I've been praying and praying and praying, I mean, for almost decades now, got to to deal with. And it seems like he's having the opposite happen, and like it's starting to have impacts on like just like mental health and my, you know, I I was navigating uh depression earlier this year, like all this kind of stuff, and questioning reality at times, questioning God, like God, what I don't under I you're not who I thought you were. What you know, all these things, this deep, deep low place. And one day I woke up and I felt like what God was saying was um, as I woke up and prayed, God, can you just help me? I felt like he was saying, um, I'm giving you an opportunity to see something because you said you wanted to learn what it meant to love others. And I'm giving you an opportunity to see and experience what others are experiencing daily. Now you're only getting a glimpse. And what struck me is uh, you know, I did years ago say, God, I want to learn what it means, what what love means, what act what it actually means for you to be love and for me to love you and for you to love us. And um, and if he had said to me, okay, well, here's how I'm gonna reveal it to you, you're gonna go through decades of hardship. Like, I might not have, you know, stayed sign on, right? Like Peter was willing to die for Jesus up until it looked different than what he thought it was gonna look like. And and yet God's graciousness stayed with me through this hardship, even as I yelled at him and complained at him and wrote him off because oh, you're still letting this bad thing happen. Uh he was patiently going with me because he knew that I really wanted to learn how to love. And in order to do that, I really needed to learn what others were experiencing. And so, you know, there are plenty of hardships that happen because of choices that we make. Um, that that is true. There are plenty of hardships that happen because of choices that others make that impact us. That is unfortunately very, very true. And then there are hardships that exist because there's a lot of uh brokenness all around us, but but sometimes that hardship isn't to break us, but to actually equip us to do something beyond what we expected. I love Ephesians 3.20. That says to him who's able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, what we tend to ask and imagine is a really comfortable, good life, right? And that's not bad. That's not bad. But what if God's like, I want to actually work through you to bring joy to others? But what if those others are folks that are in hardship, right? And what if the act of bringing joy requires that we sit in that hardship? I think of Mother Teresa, and you know, she's in the home of the dying, right? How many prayers did she hear that weren't answered because the person still died? Like what weight she carried having death around her daily, having people grieving and mourning around her daily, but she knew there was something greater that she was invited to. She gave up the option for a comfortable, quiet life in a monastery and chose to be in brokenness because she suddenly realized that life was more than just about her. She decided she was gonna give her entire life to loving God and loving others. And you and I will never know how many people's lives were impacted because of that decision. She didn't even know how many lives were impacted. But that person mourning that felt her hug, right? Or her encouraging words. Oh, we can't we can't know. And so, what if we're being invited to something similar in our hardships? If we've prayed and God hasn't taken it away, maybe he's saying, I'm I'm with you in this, don't run from this because I'm trying to do something greater.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Yeah, it's funny because sometimes I like to picture God as like a parent who eye rolls, you know, like, oh my god, like she's just not getting it. You know, and um and I think sometimes you stated, like I love what you said about the hardship that you're going through. God puts you there so you can see what others go through. It wasn't necessarily to make your life harder, yeah, or to make your journey more difficult, but to to shift who you were and and to love deeper and to see others in a different way.

unknown 55:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

Everybody. And that's that that takes that's that's not as easy as you as you can attest to, is not easy to get to.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

You know, and as as I listen to you to you talk, um I have to I I have to wonder, like when you do all these things, whether it's the the books or your ministry or or your podcast, you know, do you ever get to a point where you're like, you know, I'm just like, I don't know if I have any more to give? Do you ever I mean, do you ever get to that point because I mean hearing about how the financial struggles and raising a family, you know, I mean, you are one human being.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

You know?

SPEAKER_02 56:27

Yeah. Yep. No, it's uh the answer is often. Um and and the good news is, and I've learned this, is I'm in good company because that's the story of many in scripture. Like we've we think that if you're doing what God wants you to do, then things are gonna work out. Um, but I one of my books is called Um I Have Had Enough, Lord. It's one of my earlier ones, and it's based on the story of Elijah. And the very short version is Elijah was a prophet, so he was living for God, he was hearing from God, he saw God do miraculous things, uh incredibly miraculous things, and then after one of the most incredibly macro miraculous things, uh the queen decides to send people to kill him. And and he is just done. And he goes and he basically collapses before God and he says, I have had enough, Lord, take my life. Like he was done. Like you don't say take my life if you're if it's just like a splinter. Like he was like, I had nothing left to give. And God met him in that place and he fed him, gave him a nap, fed him again, gave him a nap, and then he said, Alright, now follow me. And he walked for 40 days to this mountain. And for those, some of some folks might have heard this passage where uh he experiences God in this way where there's this like uh earthquake that comes through, and this fire that comes through, and these big things come through, and every time it says, But God wasn't in that, but then there is this whisper, and that's where God was. And this guy who had already heard from God experiences God in this new way, but this was after his breaking point, after his end point, after he had already he knew for without a doubt that there was nothing left, and yet somehow he was able to keep going. I've often been at that point where I'm like, God, I've had enough. I'm done, I've got nothing left. Sometimes in just like frustration, sometimes in like pretty near hopelessness, and yet there's always been something within me that was not going to give up, even if it's the smallest, again, toe nudge, um, this resolve to not give up on God. But, you know, last year I had no strength or capacity, and that's when I wrote 12 of my books. I ended up doing this year of books where I self-published a book a month. I did not have any capacity to do that. But what I did have the capacity to do is wake up each day and just step as best I could. And God brought the rest, and I was surprised by all of it. But that being said, many of those books are honest explorations of like hardship. One of the last ones was uh, how long, O Lord? Based on David's psalm, where he's like, How long, O Lord? Will you forget me for the ever? How long will you hide your face from me? Like I was feeling that way even as I was experiencing God. And so absolutely, um, I have gotten to the end of myself so, so, so many times. But where I am limited, I've learned God is limitless. Where I lack understanding, God is all-knowing. God has actually shown himself as God and good, even when I still struggle to be able to tell you how. But the fact that I'm able to keep going, knowing that I shouldn't still be going, is itself a testament to God's ability uh to work and move. But again, he's doing something immeasurably more than I'm asking for, imagining. And so even though I would absolutely love for one of my books to be discovered by an influencer who then gets me a million sales, and then you know, I can move my family out to a house by the water and just write and hang out with people and pray with people like you know, without worrying about money. I'd love that. He hasn't chosen that, it's been the opposite, more expenses, right? But and yet he's inviting me to just trust him that he he sees something in this particular journey that will be worth it. Um, and my invitation is to still be honest with them about my understanding of it, but to not lean on it and to choose to trust him and to to step when he says to step.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

I love that because one thing that I've been as I've been listening to you to you speak you you speak of like small things, like having a mustard seat of faith. You know, in taking the small steps. And I I I I have to feel sometimes that as as people, um, regardless of religious beliefs, we look for big things. Um the big steps, the big patterns, the big signs. And from what I'm hearing for you is that it starts on a much smaller scale. And we look for even if we just believe just the size of a mustard seed is better than all the knowledge that one could have of of theology.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Yeah, Jesus talks about faith like a child, and you know, we think about how a child engages the world and how content they are in situations that we as adults might be focused on frustration or anxiety. Like we we have just added on so many things where as a child it can operate with simplicity.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

No, I think it's I think it's beautiful. I mean, because even though you speak of having financial hardship, you wrote 12 books and published 12 books in one year, which is and anyone who's gone through financial hardship knows it's hard to focus on anything else but that. You know, like you're not like I want to sit down and write a bestseller right now. Like you're you're you're trying to you have a family to feed, bills to pay, yeah, but still you trusted God's voice to you to write these books without knowing where it was gonna lead.

unknown 1:02:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

And still and still not knowing, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

No, no, and and no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

Because some of those I thought, oh, this is going to be the way that God brings financial provision, like this book here, like this is gonna be the one. And then when it wasn't, I was like, well, God, what were you doing? But then like I might hear a singular comment from someone that it met them at just the right time, and I'm able to realize the value. But I I I do need to say this is that itself is still a bonus. Because if I actually want to treat God as God, then that means that I need to be willing to live for him, even if I get nothing in response, right? Because he doesn't owe me anything. Um, so that means my actual invitation is if he invites me to write a book and then I never see any fruit from it, any money from it, any praise from it, any encouragement from it, like I should still be willing to do that. But God in his love often does still provide these moments where I can see how he's using these things. But even that I've got to hold loosely. The why is this happening? I may never know until eternity.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

And you have a new book coming out in a couple months, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Something in the frost.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

Yeah. This one's different in every way. The biggest difference is all my other books I've self-published through Kindle Direct Publishing, um, which I love. It's free, it's easy, I can do it on my own timeline. This is being published through Morgan James Publishing. In the time that it's taken from me to write it to when it will be officially released. I have written at so far 16, self-published 16 books in the time that professionally publishing it has taken. Uh, so it's it's been a revealing process, but um, this one has the least amount of writing because on appearance, it looks like just a coffee table book that uh the the core of it is there it's filled with pictures of random coffee froth, just random coffee froth, that then when you flip the page, you see the image that I found in it. Hence something in the froth. And it could be everything from like a little water unicorn to a bodybuilding mouse to a den full of bears. Uh and it stems from a gay that a game that my friend Scott and I used to play called the Doodle Game, where during class we would distract ourselves uh by scribbling on a piece of paper and then sliding the piece of paper to the other person, and now that person has to find something in the doodle. And we would do this often, and I loved it because I began to realize there's a deeper uh life value in that. Because just like I can find something in this random coffee froth, what if I'm able to use that same approach to the messiness of life? And because I believe that we're made in God's God's image, and because he's a creator, that means we're made in the image of a creator, which means that we all have creativity within us. For some people, it looks like traditional creativity, but for all of us, it's the ability to see and create where there is seemingly nothing. And so my hope with this book is that not only will people find joy and smiles and just enjoy the book for what it is visually, uh, they have an invitation to practice it themselves and then the take. that into everyday life. And as we talked about, we all navigate hardships. And it is so easy to see the hardships simply for what they look like they are hardships. But what if God has given us this innate creativity to look at even the most daunting of situations and find purpose in it, find value in it. It's all this shift of perspective that seems to come at a cost because it can put us at risk. We can be afraid of what if I try to be optimistic and everything falls apart. But that's part of the journey as well. And so that comes out in on August 11th. It's available for pre-order. But really, really, really my hope for it is um that it does give people a new approach to life, an encouraging approach to life. Outside of that, I don't know what God's going to do. Will this be a source provision? I don't know. But I'm holding it loosely uh trusting that he knows what he is doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

I I did there is a preview on your website. And I I did it is it is a beautiful illustration the pictures and are beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

It is and I like I like the meaning behind it seeing something more than what's there.

unknown 1:07:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

You know I think some and it it's how how powerful is it that you there's not a lot of words. Yeah but the message is still very profound in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

Yeah. And what's really funny is someone would look at that and think oh Paul's an artist. No, I don't feel like I'm good at drawing at all. Like if I the cover is this little water unicorn looking thing with wings if someone had asked me to draw that I don't know that I could have the only reason I was able to sketch the things that I sketch is I had this basis on the froth, the light and dark spots, bubbles, and a willingness to be creative. But there are people that could sketch far more beautiful things. Put another way I never would have uh published a drawing book. So that's not the authority I'm coming in with this. All I'm doing is coming with creativity. And I say that to say uh this could be true for others. We have our traditional things that we see as valuable, ways to operate, but God has given all of us an authority somewhere, something that we bring to the table. And when we discover that what we are uniquely equipped to do, who we are uniquely equipped to be, that means all of us can find a space where we bring value. And so I encourage people in that because this is not something I ever thought I would publish um but here we are.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

No and it is fun. It is fun. It is a fun, a fun book and I think it's very thought provoking um I do I like it um and I hope it brings you a lot of success whatever that looks like for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

Yeah I will say it is a I I'm excited because a lot of my books are niche books that aren't for everybody. But this is like man all ages could like this anybody who likes looking at fun stuff makes great Christmas gifts you're like I don't know what to get Uncle Bill get him this book.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

You know I used to work at Starbucks and I could I could picture this book easily like like in like local coffee shops or libraries.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

That's part of my my hope is to reach out to local coffee shops and even give them like free e gift card ebook cards that they can give away with purchases.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

So stay tuned folks maybe your local coffee shop will have a free ebook no that would be amazing to like walk into like my local coffee shop and see your book there. I would love that yeah are there any last words of I don't know encouragement or for anyone who's struggling with anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

Yeah you yeah I think uh word of encouragement and a word of challenge to different uh different folks the word of encouragement for for those that are struggling that feel like you're at the end of yourself that you have nothing to offer that hopelessness reigns um one I want to validate like that's that's a lot of that stuff is just there's real there's a reality to the hardships we experience and how we experience them. And sometimes our emotions and our perception are dismissed or minimized because somebody hasn't experienced it or they don't believe it or they don't think it's productive. So I want I want to name that but also say that's not the end of the story. I really do believe you know there's a passage I said what man meant for evil God used for good. I do believe God knows what he's doing. What's so hard is it doesn't mesh with our here and now logic and doesn't mesh with our here and now desires. But I do believe that when we lean in to who God is and what he is doing and choose to step or at least toe nudge forward, I think there will come a point where we will be able to look back and see his genius in doing it how he did. All of us love uh movies um that have tension and hardship in them because it it makes the story uh more profound and more robust uh but we don't like it in our lives right but I think we'll be able to look back and see the purpose and the value to so many things um that we thought had no purpose and had no value and could not in any way be good. Our definition of good in other words is going to be rewritten one day when we can more fully see and understand reality. The word a challenge is for those that feel like they are on the other side of hardship, that they are they are not, they feel like they're not navigating addiction or they're not doing this, that or the other. The word of challenge is it's very easy for us to get stuck in our bubble mindsets, to get stuck at our own limited understanding. And as a result, whether we realize it or not, we can look down on others. We can dismiss others we can fail to show love to others. You know the when scripture calls us to love and even just human nature invites us to love a part of our journey is to understand how deep that actually is that it's not just letting people get away with things or being nice to people or smiling people. Those can be elements of it but it's much deeper it comes down to the core of do we actually believe this person has value? That's the that's the core question. Because if we do believe that somebody has value it's going to impact how we engage with them. And so that's what I would challenge people in is um in your interactions what could it look like to make space to say this person has value and therefore is deserving of love and then in even a small way lean into that I love that I love that challenge.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

I think it's a challenge we could all lean into you know I mean whether we like it or not we all get judgment sometimes. Yeah um or put our expectations on other on other people or situations. It's true and that's a very very hard challenge to to take our lens off and look through the lens of God.

unknown 1:13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

And I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

Yeah and it's the type of challenge we need to plan to not perfect because that's how we treat everything else. You can be an expert in things I can guarantee this is a challenge that to your dying breath you're still going to need to be learning what that looks like. And that is okay. That is by like God it's in the design God knows that we're gonna struggle with it. He just wants us to not give up struggling with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:52

As long as you keep showing up yeah you know and what you I believe what what our best looks different every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:59

Yeah yeah you know and um you know as long as you keep trying even just to show up better than we did yesterday even if we get it wrong as long as we tried I think there's there's a beauty in that because we didn't give up yeah yeah and I am curious you you've mentioned several scriptures um is there one that is particularly your favorite yeah uh I I go between the two but the one that I find myself thinking about the most is one that I referenced earlier is Ephesians 320 to him who is able to do immeasurably more than we ask or imagine because of the power at work within us. And so again like getting myself to a place where I acknowledge that what I ask what I'm asking for and imagining it's not that it's bad. It's just profoundly limited. Even though I think it's the best idea ever but it is profoundly limited compared to God's creative ability to do more. But then the comfort in that last piece because of the power at work within us it's not even a matter of me figuring it out or implementing things well. It's this power within me this Holy Spirit Jesus said I'm sending an advocate and a helper like I don't I'm not alone in figuring out how to function in life. I also love Proverbs three five and six trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding and all your ways submit to him and he will set your path straight because it's not saying that our understanding is bad. It's acknowledging we have understanding but it's saying don't lean on that because again it's very limited we can get fooled easily we can get misled easily but if we choose to trust who God is with with all of our heart which is again a process and then in all our ways submit to him basically defer you're God and I'm not um it says he will set our path straight um and man that's that's what we want we just can I know the path I'm supposed to walk on um he he lets us know what that looks like I love that this is any this has been a very very nice conversation with you Paul.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

I enjoy it I think it's I think it's been very very much needed in in these times that we're in yeah yeah um and I appreciate your time today I really do we touched on a lot of things all over the place we did we did and I think sometimes those are like the best conversations yeah um you know so thank you so much for joining me today I really had um it was a pleasure and an honor to to talk um not only about your faith journey but your ministry you shared a little bit about us with your family um your upcoming book uh your books your podcast you shared a little bit of of of all of you with us and you know it was it's really nice to um to get to know you a little bit yeah um and so to those who want to get to know Paul more explore his work his work his books his podcasts um his website is where did you see god dot com and while you're there you can take a nice preview of his upcoming book Something in the Frost um it's available for pre-order and it features creative images and latte foam and that will be released um on August 11th um and on his website you can also find out more about his podcast Where Did You See God it's a beautiful podcast I recommend everyone take a listen to it there's a lot of episodes to go through there's something for everybody there I believe yeah and you can learn about his his um his work with the youth with a mission in Virginia the new vision civic league um no job titles though you're not gonna find job titles um but you are you are definitely someone on a mission and I thank you for all the work that you do um and how you show up for your community and interest in the world I have no doubt that even though you don't see it you are making a difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

I appreciate it Paul yeah thank you for creating this space to share I I'm I'm really grateful. Thank you and you know as always anyone uh you can find me um cat you work on all major platforms all my links will be in the show notes for Paul as well as myself um it's all gonna be one spot you can uh uh find um are you on social media paul yeah uh Facebook and Instagram um at where did you see god and there's a TikTok for something in the froth but I'm I'm I'm trying to get back into doing that I've I tried to avoid tick tock for a long time until I don't blame you I don't blame you I don't blame you but um Paul is out there and the best way to find him would be to be on his website whereedidjucygod.com um and please follow us on social media for snippets and show updates and until we uh until we talk again uh please remember you don't have to carry what you came from and please keep telling your story because you never know who you will help um and Paul is definitely proof of that so thank you Paul and we will see you next time