From Military Service to Mental Health Advocate — A Conversation on Healing

In this episode, Host Cat York speaks with Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and addiction specialist Kevin Odom about his personal journey—from serving in the U.S. Army National Guard to clinical care—and his recent kidney donation. They discuss the philosophy of the One Moment Podcast and explore critical topics like common misconceptions in addiction and mental health, trauma-informed and person-centered care, relapse prevention, and patients’ rights. The conversation is framed by hope and the belief that one moment can change a life, and provides practical resources for seeking help.

Kevin Odom, a Certified Supervisor in North Carolina, applies his diverse, ethical expertise to behavioral health quality assurance, a background that includes 3.5 years as an Army National Guard diesel mechanic.

To learn more about Kevin & his Podcast please visit his Linktree below:

Kevin Odom - One Moment

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If you or a loved one is seeking treatment or information for substance use or mental health disorders, here are immediate resources that can help.

SAMHSA National Helpline: A 24/7, confidential referral and information service for individuals and families facing mental and/or substance use disorders (in English and Spanish) Call: 1-800-662-HELP (4357)

Crisis & Mental Health Support:Connect with support for mental health, substance use, and suicidal crises by texting your zip code to HELP4U (435748).

Partnership for Drug-Free Kids Helpline: 1-855-378-4373

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello, and welcome to the Call Her Cat Podcast, the show dedicated to honest conversations about addiction, recovery, and finding the strength to break the cycle. I'm your host, Kat York, and this is where we get real about the messy, complex, and often unspoken truth of what it means to heal. If you're working to redefine your story, searching for connection, or simply need to know you're not alone, you've come to the right place. My mission is to hold space for the raw, direct stories of people who have walked this path. We dive into the generational trauma, personal battles, and the profound lessons we've learned along the way. The views expressed here in this podcast are those of the host and the guests. This content is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended to be professional advice. Please consult a qualified professional for guidance specific to your situation. Today we are joined by Kevin Odom, M-A-L C M H C L C A S. Kevin is a licensed clinical mental health counselor, addiction specialist, and certified supervisor in North Carolina. He is the owner of One Moment, PLLC, and the co-founder of the One Moment Podcast. Clinton Kevin brings a diverse and ethical expertise to behavioral health, which includes work at Novant Health Impatient Unit and prior service in the U.S. Army National Guard. Kevin, welcome. Thank you for being here with me today. Is there anything I missed that you'd like to add in your bio?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Nah, I think you've uh basically covered everything.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

So you have a very diverse background from working in um the Army National Guard to being a mental health counselor and addiction specialist. Um was there a specific moment or experience that led you from the Army National Guard to now working um as a mental health counselor and addiction specialist?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, I uh I'd probably say there's a direct connection and a direct link between what I did in the military versus what I do now. Uh, you know, a lot of people, you know, say, Congrats on your service, man. Thank you for serving. And, you know, man, I had a blast serving. I had a blast, I had an absolute amazing time serving. But I ended up getting out because of my own struggles with uh certain things. And when I had a change of life, I knew what I wanted to do and where I was going to put my career at long term and short term. And I proceeded to go that route. And so, you know, I don't, you know, it didn't take away from my experience of being in the service. I think it added to and it gave me a unique experience of being, you know, in the Army National Guard. If I didn't do the stuff that I was doing, would I still be in the service? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'd probably have served, you know, a couple of tours overseas, uh probably been stationed all over the world just because I love to travel. But my experience then makes me who I am today.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Now, what is I love the the name that you chose for your podcast, One Moment. What is the what's the is there a story behind that?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Actually, there is. And I do appreciate that. So One Moment podcast. There is currently 86,400 seconds in a 24-hour day. Now, the on the average uh people stay awake for about uh 12 to 15 hours a day, roughly give every take, or some even uh some science shows even 16 hours. So if you look at 16 hours, and you want that brings us out to approximately uh 57,600 seconds in 16 hours. Well, in every single second, we have a the opportunity to make a decision. And if you really think about what one moment is, this is it's a second, right? We all we have all these moments to make a decision in our lives. And if you look at Emily M's hit song Lose Yourself, you know, when he sings at the very beginning, you have one moment, you know, again, you know, you have you know what what decision do you make? When you think about suicidal attempts and sobs and shoes and relapse and uh you know deciding in mental health not to take your medication when you have that moment to make that decision, do you keep going down the path that you're on, or do you make the decision to you know relapse? Do you make the decision to attempt to die by suicide? You know, same thing with publishing, right? And if it's you know, publishing, I've had all women authors and male authors on our show too. In that moment, do you make the decision to write the book and publish? Or do you not? Same thing with minority issues, you know. If you look at Dr. Martin Luther King, he spent every waking moment to fight for the rights of others. And you know, whether you were African, American, Native American, or what have you, he fought for the, you know, he stood up and advocated for the rights of all. And every every single moment counted. Unfortunately, he was assassinated, but every single moment counted. Every single moment. Doesn't matter what it is. We all have approximately the same amount of time, and life is really short. Think about how short it is. Average lifespan is 70 to 75 years or something of that sort. We sleep a third of it away. What does that lead us out to be? Every moment that we have in life counts. And I think our ultimate goal, our ultimate legacy is to make every single moment count to the best of my ability.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I think I was I was listening to some episodes of your of your podcast. And I love the conversations that you bring. Um, because the common theme that I the least I take away from what I was listening to was that you try to um, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, is bring people hope. Is that a correct observation?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's bringing people hope. You know how many countries still criminalize and penalize suicidal ideations and suicidal thoughts and suicidal attempts? About a dozen. I can't even go to your therapist and say, you know, or a therapist or somebody you trust and say, hey, I'm thinking about dying by suicide today, or I'm thinking about harming myself. It's sad. You know, so many people have a, you know, feel like they don't have a voice. Over 75% of Americans report that uh currently in our healthcare system that uh they do not deserve, they do, they do not get the health care that they deserve or need. That tells me that we have, you know, our focus in healthcare is not where it needs to be. And so my hope is and my goal is is to challenge the current healthcare system uh in our country, uh, and not just in our country, but around the world. You know, provide a, you know, be be a voice for the voiceless, provide a resource where, you know, there is none. Um and even if that's given hope. If you look at what Victor Frankel said in uh wrote in one of his books, he was a um Holocaust survivor. He talks about the importance of maintaining hope, man, you know, and and throughout adversity, right? And that hope is what keeps us alive. And he uh theorized, and uh you know, that throughout that Holocaust was that this is one of the things, again, he theorized several things, but this is one of them. Those who maintain their hope were most likely to live till the end of the Holocaust and survive those camps versus those who didn't. And hope, if you look at it in research, is very critical and crucial to survival of the human species. Yeah, is very critical and crucial to recovery from whatever you want to add to it, whether it's medical surgery, whether it's cancer, whether it's uh you know, suicidal, you know, concerns, whether it's substance use, what have you? Hope is one of the most important things, concepts that we can strive to achieve and maintain and hold on to and even adapt it if need be.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

How do you feel um hosting your own podcast and stepping into the role of a of a media creator complements the work as you do that you do as a as a therapist?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Well, you know, for me, I think it goes back to I need to do something different than what my career is, and and when I'm on camera and I'm doing all this stuff, uh I don't know. I mean, for me, I think it just goes back to enjoying the enjoying the field, uh enjoying the ability to serve others. You know, I think, you know, regardless of any major religion that you study, you know, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, uh Tay, uh Taoism or Taoism, however you pronounce that, um, even in your and even when you go back to your Eastern cultures and eastern practices, uh, our main goal in in life, I think, is to serve one another, right? Um and and so I look at the podcast that that through that lens is as it's one way of serving humanity. It's given hope, it's given, you know, faith, it's it's it's it's given is being a resource for people. Uh, and that's really what it's about. And so I feel like you know, it really complements the the the work I do as a therapist. Uh I I don't do my job for money. I don't I don't care about the money. The money, I mean, I get paid decently. Uh and I take my raises and I give it back. I use my raises for things in the community so that I can continue to do things that I'm doing for people. And so I think it really compliments because if I I've seen so many people and so many organizations get wrapped up in treating patients as dollars or people as dollars, not patients, but people as dollars, or they're just another dollar sign, whether it's a tax write-off insurance concern or what have you. And I think for me, it goes back to this is a person who is struggling for help. Even you know, when I'm on when I'm when I'm working and in and providing therapeutic services to people, and the same thing with the podcast. I am uh serving people, I don't do it for money, I don't get paid for the podcast. Nobody on the podcast gets paid for it, like nobody. We don't get paid for video editing, we don't do none of that. Like we don't get paid for none of it, but we do it because we enjoy it. I haven't been able to do much editing in the last couple of weeks, but that'll be okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Well, you um can we can can we talk about something special that you did? Um yeah. Um and well, why don't you why don't you tell what you did?

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Are you talking about what happened in February?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, so on February the 26th, I had the opportunity to uh go under the knife and go into surgery and have a kidney snatched out of me or cut out of me and then put into somebody else. That was a freaking awesome experience. Uh started that process in November, and uh it's it's you know, again, I think it goes back to the idea of serving others, you know. We are you know, we are social creatures, and you know, part of being a social creature is you know, I think our duty is to serve one another. And so when I was presented with that opportunity to to do that, uh I walked that path. And it's I put one foot in front of the other, followed up with all the medical professionals, um, like everybody, and I proceeded to do what you know what they said. Um and the individual to this day is three and a half weeks off of dialysis. It's been an absolute privilege and honor being able to be a part of that. He lived, he was on dialysis for six years. Average lifespan on dialysis is about seven to ten years. Okay. Uh, and so he he was at six six years, a little over six years, about six and a half-ish. And so today he's been off of dialysis for three and a half weeks. This Thursday will be four weeks. And the kidney, you know, so three things can happen when you do a kidney donation. Uh, one is the kidney can be outright rejected. Even if y'all are matched, perfect match, it can still be rejected. Number two is it can take a couple of weeks to a couple of months for them to jumpstart it. And the the individual will have to go through dialysis for a little bit longer. Or the third one was the kidney could immediately could work as soon as they put it in, right? And out of all three of those options, my kidney started working once they put it in. That's beautiful. Yeah. No, I didn't do it for accolades, I didn't do it for none of that. I did it because this world needs more love, it needs more care in it. It needs more hope, it needs more faith in humanity, it needs more trust between people. I'm a Caucasian dude.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

You know, we were 100% matched from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

I I can't even imagine what that that what that moment was like for both of you. You know, to to know that you changed the course of his life and that now he had a literally a second chance at a longer life. You know? Um that's beautiful that you that you did that.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

And I think you are right that this world does more love and kindness and understanding across all races, religions, all of it. Um what do you something that affects everybody no matter their race, their religion, their gender, is addiction and mental health. And what are some common misconceptions that that you see in your work that maybe you like to see changed?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Oh, that's a great one. Oh man, there's so many. Do we have like three hours of recording to do? There's so many. Uh, one of the ones I get quite a bit uh is uh there's no such thing as mental health. And uh I remember being on the phone with uh a family one time and you know, dealing with a uh individual who was a schizophrenic, right? And the family had said something, man, no such thing wrong as mental health. There's no science that even supports mental health, this, that, and a third. And I'm like, oh, okay. So uh I'm just curious, do you believe in schizophrenia? And I can't make this up. Listen, I ain't knocking religion by any means when I say this, but uh that individual said, serious as a heart attack here. They said, No, I don't believe in schizophrenia. If they have they have the devil inside of them, and if they were to get Jesus Christ into their life, they wouldn't have the devil inside of them. Well, fortunately and unfortunately, depending upon one's perception, schizophrenia is an actual true diagnosis. You can look at it in the diagnostic and statistical manual. You can also see um, you can also pull up research and see changes in the brain, the structural changes in the brain. You can also see how methamphetamine use long-term, how the damage from methamphetamines actually mirrors the structural changes in schizophrenia. Both of them are very similar as far as the structural changes that happen. Um and so that's a huge misconception is mental health and substance use do not exist and that they need some form of religion in their life. Uh, I disagree with that idea. Uh, mental health and substance use is an actual real issue. Um, another issue, I think, is you know, substance use is a brain disease. Uh that's a huge myth. And I say that because you have for a whole decade or so plus, and I think you would probably agree, is we pushed on, we ran on this idea. All treatment programs, regardless of where it was located, ran on this idea. Well, I'd say most treatment programs, let me say most, ran on this idea that substance use is a brain disease and they taught from the brain disease model. Well, my question is is looking at that 15 years later, uh, did we make the problem of addiction worse or better? And I think most people would actually answer that we've made it that substance use has gotten worse. Well, we threw everybody, or almost a whole population of substance use under this one theory of brain disease model of addiction. We completely forgot about and did not, you know, I shouldn't say completely forgot, but we did. We, you know, theoretically speaking, we forgot about all the other modalities, right? Cognitive behavioral therapy, existential therapy, narrative therapy. Now you even have a lot of your theories from from you know the the the the the feminist movement that happened in the psychology field in the you know 60s and you know during all of that the big rights movement, you know, back when you have, I mean, there's so many theories out there, right, that actually fit too. Um so that's a huge myth is because you can't throw everybody under one umbrella. That's like saying, okay, and to treat trauma, we have to have EMDR. Well, no, you have CPT, you have CBT, you have EMDR, right? Uh you can't throw everybody under the same or on the same bus and say, this is the way you have to do it. Another thing that is a uh a huge issue is you'll have people in recovery who work in substance use field, and their whole, and let's say they got sober through the 12-step program. Well, their whole deal is to push the 12-step program, push the 12 steps, 12-step, 12-step, 12-step, 12-step. And it's like, dude, what are you doing? Right. And it's like, and you see a lot of it with people in recovery. And so that is a huge problem, especially in um, especially in the substance use field, is you know, these people are trying to push just one theory or one idea. Like what worked for you might not work for all these other people. You can't throw the next thousand to ten thousand people under the same umbrella and say, hey, this is the only way that works. Recovery is an individual thing. So how I how I get and stay sober, it might not work for you. You might need harm reduction, you might need a 48-hour rapid detox, you might need something, right? Or some people got sober through get sober through a church, and that's okay. You have to figure out what you know, it's the therapist's job to help the patient figure out what works versus what doesn't work. Uh, I know a um there's a treatment program in um Hawaii, they have actually come in here and integrated eastern and western practices, you know, or eastern and western medicine, and they do a lot of you know, cultural, ancient cultural practices and they're relapse rates are have uh they have reduced relapse rates significantly in the state of of Hawaii Medicaid actually pays for the ancient practices now through the through the you know in uh in the state which is a beautiful thing that they are the first state to have to come here and say okay yeah we'll pay for I don't know I'm gonna use for an example yeah we'll pay for acupuncture right we'll pay for this eastern practice right here or that eastern practice like we literally have changed up the healthcare system in the state of of Hawaii and so it's another myth that I say you know needs to be you know is a huge barrier to providing services another one too is um uh uh in uh a lot of folks think that in substance use the best therapist is somebody in recovery I disagree I've actually seen the best therapist I know of was not in recovery never was in recovery and this guy can I mean he has touched thousands upon thousands upon thousands of lives throughout his 30 year career and I mean every all the patients most of the patients he meets loves him you know they give him high ratings he's got some of the highest ratings in the field of the substance shoes field um you know another myth is and this is I think is amongst the I think amongst the healthcare population itself not patients on the you know but you know going back to people like myself I've heard so many times that the healthcare system is good that we just need to do this and you know we're not overregulating and oh the system's not broken it's just a people like where the are you at like open your freaking eyes research suggests as I said earlier that over 75% of Americans don't agree with our current status of of healthcare like that's not me saying it I'm agreeing with 75% of America and we have 350 million people roughly you know in the US right yeah 75 of that 350 million agree that we have some of the worst health care in the history of the US my job is to go with the research and to treat people as they are people and not numbers they're they're more than just a dollar serum and and I mean there's so many myths there there's so many myths and we can keep going you know I I can tell you so many myths right now you know people think that LGBTQ population a lot of their issues is based on trauma well I actually showed it on my show when I asked a uh a young lady who was part of the actually I think I asked two people one of them was transgender one of them was a lesbian and I said hey you know you have any history of trauma you raped as you know basically you know without asking were you raped as a child that was basically the way I asked do you have any history of trauma?

SPEAKER_02 25:05

No said no there was no history of trauma so oh okay so I mean that's another myth um there's so many myths out there that we can I mean we can keep going down it's gonna you know do you have three hours to talk about no I like that you highlighted um you highlighted an interesting point and I I tend to agree with you that not every counsel um or addiction specialist that you talk to has to be in recovery um and I I've I say that from experience where that has worked against me having someone um be in recovery um because I have found that often in my experience that it it swayed their decision on which way I should go and um you know I don't think I agree that you don't need to be in recovery to treat those who are are fighting addiction. And and you mentioned that addiction and mental health often go hand in hand. How do you what piece do you begin to treat first?

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Because that's a complicated you're dealing with two complicated issues or challenges like how do you even start when you're dealing with someone who's dealing with um addiction and and mental health issues that's a great question I think you know a lot of people ask that question to this day I mean and I think the answer isn't really a simple answer because it's like hey which came first the chicken or the egg well you got to have chickens in order to have eggs well where did the egg come from or where did the chicken come from I mean and you're going working yourself in circles right uh same thing with you know tomatoes tomatoes potatoes potatoes it doesn't really matter it's the same thing right and I think it just depends on the individual I think it's an individualistic case because I've seen it where I have worked one-on-one with the individual who they had his diagnoses backwards where it was a trauma I mean it was the substance use that happened first and then it was the addiction uh or excuse me it was a substance use that happened first and then it was a trauma and then I've had you know and I found out in my work with that individual that it actually wasn't that way it was the trauma first then it was a substance use and we were treating the substance use but it wasn't getting better you know the individual was not getting better the individual was getting worse so during the middle of a session I challenged the idea I you know pulled up the drug screens and everything like dude what in the world is going on and come to find out it was the trauma and of what happened in NAM uh or Vietnam uh you know people say nam for short but Vietnam and desert storm and it was like all of those things that that happened and when the individual and I talked about the situation or the situations it was something that was clinically miraculous and I say clinically miraculous because I think that's the best descriptor of it the individual's substance use had gotten significantly better once the trauma was discussed explored emphasized and treatment was provided now again that's an individualistic case there's this idea in the field now that you know when people go into treatment then the treatment should again be person centered and and you know it should be integrated trauma informed care is what they're calling it now regardless if it's substance use or whether it's you know treatment for bipolar disorder is still you know there's if there's trauma it should be trauma informed care. So I think you know I think it just really depends on the individual and there's not a single you know it's not a single simple answer it's uh more of an individualistic answer.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

I I that's gotta be difficult um because I imagine when you're dealing with someone who's dealing with trauma from something as complicated and as devastating as Vietnam that's not something they're gonna easily want to share right um and depending how deep that trauma is and there's other trauma they might not even be able to distinguish kind of what came first so that leaves you in a very challenging situation to really have to take a lot of time really get to know the person and their history to know where to almost really start to treat and what to really start to treat.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Um and that's gotta be at times quite quite hard to know even even to where to start is that accurate well yeah and I think a lot of therapists they get into this idea especially some of your newer therapists and and because I've seen and I work with a lot of you know I've been to a lot of college students uh and I do some supervision with some people too and I I think the biggest thing that they that I think people should remember when you are a healthcare worker this is regardless of right healthcare worker itself you know whether you're a nurse psych you know uh psychiatric practitioner nurse practitioner whether you're a doctor whether you know whatever whatever your title is in healthcare it's remember that it's the it's the person first right it's the human first I need to be able to connect with the individual on a human to human connection right without that connection I have no therapeutic relationship right there's no therapy that's being provided right there and that human human that human to human connection is just like you and I talking right now it's just as simple as that there's no therapeutic work that's being done I'm not giving you therapy and you're not giving me therapy you're not telling me well I want you to go home and work on the CBT worksheet right but you're not telling me that the human to human connection I think is the most important piece of any therapeutic relationship in as it relates to healthcare persons doctor NP PA LPN RN even those who work in the healthcare industry and they work more in the admin positions we've gotten I think for a good part of the healthcare field is we've gotten away from that ideal once we get and that's what I keep into my into the forefront of my brain is my ultimate goal number one goal in any relationship when I meet people is to connect with them one-on-one human to human it doesn't matter like you know there's no title involved there's no like you know I don't you know don't don't call me mister don't call me sir like you don't I am a person just like you I have thoughts and emotions just like you once I can connect on that level then I can start to build a build trust right and I and if you look at a lot of what happened like during the COVID era well there's a huge lack of trust in the field huge lack of trust in the field and if you go back to even what happened to Tuskegee uh syphilis study right no wonder there's lack of trust between people and the government people and healthcare because of how we treated people you know we gave them syphilis and didn't even provide them with the freaking medications to cure it or even treat it. Right like no wonder there's lack of trust and my number one goal is to or number number two goal after the human connection is to build that level of trust with that person. And that's where I think the two pieces that I think healthcare is missing. See when I was a patient over there at Methodist Hospital in San Antonio they didn't care about the like yeah they cared about the insurance about the individual's insurance but they treated me most importantly as a person as a human being yeah they literally said uh I got denied on something for financial whatever the first time for like fight financial assistance and they literally called me up and they said hey you got denied on this this amount of money blah blah blah uh do you still want to move forward with the donor with the donation I said absolutely come on now they were like really yeah really come on let's let's let's do it and so they treated me as a person right yeah they didn't discriminate against myself against my substance use history from 15 years ago or however long ago 13 14 15 years ago they didn't discriminate based on anything else they just treat they treated me as a person you know they asked me have I ever spent 70 72 hours in incarcerated I said sure they were like when I said like 15 20 years ago they were like we ain't worried about that it was you know they because they looked at what I am doing now what I am doing today right I was went in on a Thursday released on a Friday I was readmitted on the Saturday morning at 2 30 and what I did is I took the pain medication with me back to the hospital not once did they say that I was overtaking medication not once did they discriminate me not once did they deny me services in fact they readmitted me and said you're not going to leave here until you you know until your bowels get up and working right basically what they said and even the whole process of that they still treated me as a person right they never once said no you can't come back no they never discriminated against me didn't none of that they said hey sometimes this happens with people it takes a moment for their body to get up and work and their insides so I cool they explained to me I asked questions was not an issue at all they never once shunned me they never made me feel shunned none of that absolutely none of it even with my follow up when I went back I tried to take pictures with a few people they didn't and they didn't feel comfortable with and they were like nah I don't want to go on social media all right that's cool. Well other than that they still were respectful they treated me again as out as a human being yeah first and then a patient second yeah and that's what we're missing is in the field that's a that's a huge thing and I think that once we once we get back to the human to human connection once we establish that first and foremost you know the the disclosure is going to come people are going to trust yeah I did this in Vietnam or yeah I did this in Desert Storm yeah I did this over there in Iraq yeah I did this in Kuwait or yeah hey this happened to me when I was five years old my daddy beat me and you know my my my my daddy was raping me as he was quoting biblical scriptures out the Bible you know whatever the whatever the situation is but if I don't have that human to human connection you think uh do you think a a woman or a guy is going to tell me as a therapist or even their medical provider that hey yeah my dad was raping me and he's quoting biblical scripture at the same time no you got you gotta have a deep level of trust to share something like that yeah absolutely and that's what it that's where it all starts at without that then there's no there's no health care there's no services there's nothing none of nothing can be provided you're then you're talking about untreated mental health untreated substance use untreated what have you now something that comes up a lot when you're dealing with addiction whatever the substance may be is is relapse and a lot of people will say well that's just part of recovery where where do you stand on relapse prevention or even relapse in general oh that's a great question I haven't been asked that question yet ever I don't think um relapse doesn't have to be a part of recovery but it can be it can be um and I say that because a lot of people you know there's a lot of people that come in you know in recovery and they don't relapse and get it the first time but then there's also the other people who you know if you look at William James William James is a huge spiritual experience guy very spiritual very recovery based guy and he talks about spiritual experiences and how there's two forms right one is the burning bush form uh the other one is the educational variety and so some people have to relapse a couple of different times in order for them to really process what is going on for them to grasp it. Um and I've seen both I've seen both sides here and for my relapse prevention folks you know the way I typically work with people is I take an existential approach and I help people to understand a very you know and I uh it's an existential but it's more of a mixed approach too and I help people understand on you know go back to your relapse and see what you were doing well at and see what you were not doing well at see what you needed to change and improve that where those areas of improvement of change not where you were doing well at because we can always improve across the board right but the areas where you needed to improve at maybe that's where you needed to hang your hat at maybe hang your hat in Texas on that one right uh and and go from there or I think the song says hang hang my hat in Tennessee so maybe you need to hang your hat in Tennessee on that right there right focus in on that area maybe improve in that area or at least in one of those two of those areas you know because it everybody's different so I that's the way I take uh you know the the the relapse prevention approach you know let's look let's explore some of these relapses what was going on you know what changed what happened what did you stop doing what did you not do what did you need to do but didn't because if you explore that and you ask those simple questions you you know the individual I mean you're gonna get the answer yeah and you and that's why I say relapse can be a part of recovery it's not a it's it's you know it's is it's not the idea that it doesn't you know that it's not a part of no no it can be a part of recovery and I think you know with these people that says that recovery is not a part of real uh that relapse is not a part of recovery I think they need to probably go back to school getting them a little bit more education that's my challenge to them because maybe they don't know what relapse is maybe or maybe their experiences with relapse doesn't align with somebody else's you know the the issue that I think we have is oh my god cbt worked for me you need cbt honey child my god you know the 12 step program that Bill Wilson worked oh it'll work for you too what the pre program preaches honey get the hell out of here you know uh and and you know it's it's uh you know you know people in the field uh who work as as substance use therapists primarily you know I think they I think it's time to rain some of these ideas back you know what works for one doesn't work for all you know same thing with compliance you know just because you want to push compliance on one chart doesn't mean it needs to be compliance across the board you know or this heavy focus and uh I've always said this and I'll say it you know uh till the day I die you know you can talk to me JCO or freaking carf or whoever the state of North Carolina can talk to me about compliance compliance compliance compliance compliance compliance and they're my response to them at least the fucking chart won't relapse yeah because you're not you're dealing with yeah you you you lose sight of the person right absolutely absolutely right now you you highlighted something you um kind of touched on a little bit like you know paperwork and and compliance and all that and when someone's really struggling they're in crisis you know it's it can be get very complicated and almost impossible trying to find the right help wade through all the paperwork insurance claims you know all this other things you know fill out a thousand forms you know what is how how important is it for somebody to really in recovery to really understand their rights um that and the laws that that are there to protect them um because so many times I've seen people um you know just not get help because they just didn't understand how it worked like they just they're they're they're deep in their addiction or mental health struggles or just don't even know where to start you know how important is that that that they do the research or have someone help them do their research well I think it's crucial number of reasons because why number one we work in a healthcare system that is uh I mean and I get it it's supposed to be a socialized you know form of medicine in in western civilization I I get that part you know very socialistic or you know you know I think it's people shy away from using the word communistic or communism and I agree with that uh but it's very socialized and I I I get that part you know and the reason I say that is because as we've been talking about people in healthcare have gotten away from treating people as people right and it's all about a dollar sign number dollar sign number dollar sign number dollar sign number and you know people can make complaints it's patients' rights to make a complaint this Patient's rights to do this, this patient's rights to do that, right? Like it's that is a huge part of healthcare. But once patients start making complaints, then people in healthcare get all butthurt. Oh my god, this person is just annoying, this person's just freaking aggravating, this person's just blah blah blah. Shut the F up, bruh. Like that's what I'd be wanting to tell, you know, some of these people that work in healthcare. Reason being, I I made a mistake, you know, a couple of years ago and ended up working, I was working for this program we got federal funding. Uh so the way I started operating it, because they said that it would take two weeks, you know, approximately two weeks for the individuals to be approved for federal funding. So the way I implemented it at the facility level was once we submit you, you pay for two weeks, right? You're you as a you as the patient cat would pay for two weeks until you're approved, you know, in the system, right? And then once you're approved, then we'll you know, then you you're you're you're good to go, right? Well, and this is what I love about patients' rights, right? And once you become knowledgeable on you, use patients' rights and complaints to better yourself. I had an individual that transferred from nice from another program, and I you know, we're you know, that individual and I sit down, we do all the documentation, and I told them the same thing. Look, you're gonna have to pay for two weeks, blah, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth. They said, Kev, that ain't the way it works. I'm like, Well, it is the way it works right now, like this moment. Well, Kevin, I'm telling you, uh, we just had federal funding, blah, blah, blah, just that third, so on and so forth. And I'm telling you, that's not the way it works. I said, Well, how about this? I said, do do me a favor. And the individual said, Yeah. I said, go make a complaint right now, as soon as you leave here, go make a complaint right now, because that individual is going to call us, we're gonna set up a meeting, and we're gonna go back and do the training and do do some like question training and stuff like that. Like, we're going to go ask some questions. I want you to please take your complaint and submit it. I mean within 24 hours, or 48 hours, or maybe seven, it was a couple, it was several years ago, but within like, you know, within a uh a two to three day period, we had a scheduled meeting, myself, my regional director, uh, and the the the entity for federal and state funding. And in that call, I said, you know, this is what it takes. It takes two weeks for track, you know, for this, that, and a third to go through what do you want me to do? Because if they're denied, then they patients have to pay up for two weeks. Like, like, what do you how do you want me to handle this? And I have my regional director on the phone. The individual literally said, Kev, have you ever seen somebody be denied off of blah blah blah? No, sir, if never. Okay, then I want you to immediately do changings, changes in your system, and in the way y'all do things. Uh apply for federal funding. Patients do not have to pay any longer until they are denied, or we, you know, the fund the funding is taken away, it's canceled, it's stopped, or what have you. And so that's what we use, you know, complaints are made or are you know used and should be or should be used to better and improve and change the quality of services that we are provide, that that we provide. Right. Like, if I'm doing something wrong, I need to be able to step back instead of taking it personally and say, oh, okay, how how do I do, you know, this, that, and the third. So if yeah, understanding one's rights is very crucial because that individual understood their rights as a person, as a patient, and I encouraged them to utilize their rights as a patient, and it actually even helped us to better our services and to improve our quality of services. It literally did that. I like that. And so, you know, rights, patients' rights is very important. You know, uh uh, you have a right to ask for a therapist, you have a right to, you know, seek services wherever you want to from, you know, wherever you want from. It doesn't matter. You have a right for certain types of treatment, you know. Now, whether you're approved for those types of treatments is neither here nor there. I can't I can't speak on that one because every entity is different, every organization is different.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Now, something that's that I think comes up sometimes is you know, when somebody is like in the throes of their addiction or mental health, or even a combination of the both, when they're in a crisis that can be scary. Um, that can be very intimidating and very uncertain. And do you have any um what are maybe some things that um friends or family could do to support someone who's in a crisis at that moment? What are some important things to remember? Obviously, be safety being you know most important.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Oh, yeah, for sure. No, safety is very important, and that's safety of all people. You know, uh there's many resources that individuals can use, and of course, it's 911 and local, you know, um, police offices, uh, police officers, um, local law enforcement. Another one is 988, which is the National Suicide Crisis Hotline. That's another resource. You got you have the domestic violence hotline, you have the sexual abuse hotline, you even have some organizations have um local crisis hotlines too that you can utilize. Uh, and that's you know, definitely use your resources. That's number one, because when you use, you know, well, number two, that's number two, because safety is important. Safety of all people is important. Um, and that's again, safety of yourself and the individual who's experiencing the substance used to suicidal ideations or you know, what have you. Um, and you know, so that's number one and number two. Number three is to remember that they're they're a person just like you. It doesn't matter if they're schizophrenic, if they're using crack, if they're using heroin and fentanyl, it doesn't matter if they're homeless, doesn't matter what you know, if they're homeless dancing in the middle of the street, butt naked, right? Doesn't matter, they're still a person just like you and I because that switch can flip in you and I you and I would be that person dancing buttle, uh butt ass naked in the middle. So I'm saying like yeah, yeah, it can happen to anybody. Uh and I think that's the thing that's not that is missing is looking at the looking at people in crises, you know, as a person. You know, and I think that if we can take the blinders off and see that this person doesn't truly mean violence, even though they they just destroyed the house, of course. Did they really and truly mean that? Like, are they you know, there's sick people. They're sick people now. That also doesn't mean that you need to be a doormat. Don't be a doormat, never be a doormat. But I think those three things is very important, you know, you know, making sure that you're safe, the family is safe, the individual safe. It's number one, number two, utilizing your resources, and number three, if we take the perspective of this is a person who needs help, I think that helps to reduce biases, to reduce discrimination, to reduce a lot of things in the field, you know, and in in society in general. Had a situation happen and I had to call law enforcement. An individual was, of course, an African-American uh male, uh, maybe my age or why have you, this is year several years ago. And you know, a firearm was pulled on the premises. Well, when I called 911, because my job as a supervisor was to ensure safety of all people, visitors, patients, and staff, right? And so, and and and of course myself and the facility, the the medications, like everything, right? And so when I called 911, they asked about the you know, I had to give them a description. I said the individuals, uh, African-American, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth. And I emphasized because of the way stereotypes are, I said, nothing, no shots have been fired. I emphasized that at least three or four times, right? On to law enforcement. I said, no, no shots have been fired, it was only brandished, and I said, I think in the form of self-defense due to the circumstances, but uh it is still my job to ensure safety of all people. I had some people think that I made a call to call law enforcement because of the color of the individual's skin. I said, no, I don't care who it was, it could have been a little short three-two Caucasian guy. A firearm is a firearm, is a firearm. Safety is safety, is safety. Yeah, and so you know, I took it upon myself to ensure safety. Number one, because I'm not going to confront somebody with a firearm, like I don't like I'm not in that position too. You know what I mean? Like, I'm a therapist. I'm not I'm I'm the program or assistant program director at that time. I'm not going to put myself in that position to stand in front of somebody with a firearm and even lose my own life. Now, if I have to, I will, right? Like if I had to confront somebody, I will, because I've been in certain positions where it was a lot of potential, you know, life or death violence in the field, and law enforcement took 15 minutes to get there. Uh, and so, but like it was safety first, it wasn't race, it was safety first. Yeah, and I utilized my resources, right? And I still looked at the person as a as a human being. I still looked at all the people involved as a human being.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

And I was able, and that helped to meet me to be able to practice and utilize empathy toward toward somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

No, and those are the situations, obviously that's not an everyday thing that you're that you that you're involved in, but those are very, very taxing, I'm sure emotionally taxing, physically taxing, you know, situations to to be in. I'm curious, like when you're not helping people in recovery or with mental health or or co-hosting your podcasts, what are some things that you do to like unwind, kind of take care of yourself and your mental health?

SPEAKER_01 55:11

I do a lot of school work. Uh, I like to play the games, I like to you know hang out with uh my support system. Uh and uh the last couple of days I've actually since uh got medically cleared, I've actually been uh smoking on some nice, beautiful, amazing cigars. I'm sure that felt nice. Yeah, yeah, it did. Um so I have my own little thing, you know. I like to like to do some traveling and like to uh you know just see and explore and and do things new, do things different. And of course, you know, I was watching a movie this morning, Blacklist, I think it was. Freaking amazing movie with Liam Nelson or have you pronounced his name? Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

Oh, yeah, Liam Neeson, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's one of my favorite, favorite uh, you know, movie movie actors. But yeah, I mean, you know, self-care is very important. It is very, very important.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

And what is what is one last bit of maybe suggestion or advice that you could give someone who's maybe struggling with addiction or mental health?

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Uh don't quit before the miracle happens. You know, I don't care if you relapse a hundred times in the next 30 days, don't quit before the miracle happens. Help is there. You know, it doesn't matter where you get help from, explore, reach out, seek it, you know, seek it. I don't care if you have to break into a church. Well, I don't tell you, I'm not telling you to go break into a church, but okay, so hear me out. But you know, like if you if if it literally takes you breaking into a church, going in there, sitting on the pew and waiting for the preacher to come and talk to you and send you off to treatment. I mean, like, do what you need to do, reach out for help, help is available. Help is available. I don't care, right? Again, don't don't break into anything, don't break the law. Of course, don't. But like I just heard a story about that. That a man broke into a church, went down, so went in, sat on a pew. The very next morning, the preacher came in and the band begged and begged and begged for help, and they sent the individual off to a treatment and a year later came back a changed man, right? The dude broke in begging for help. And so I don't care what it is, reach out for help. 2, 3, 4, 5 a.m. 6 a.m. 12 p.m., you know, 2 p.m., 12, you know, 11 p.m. midnight or 11 p.m., whatever, doesn't matter. Reach out for help is available. Don't stop seeking. I think a lot of people lose hope. Yeah. And I can see it. I can see that, you know, why people would lose hope. And I think that, you know, it's important to, you know, I love what one of my good friends says, Ruben Burning. He says that I can let my light shine, and I can also help shine your help your light shine too. I don't have to put your light out for mine to shine, and I don't have to put my light out for yours to shine. We both shine, and I can help you shine brighter if need be. I can help, you know, and and and I think that's important for people to understand, is you know, for anybody who's listening, whether you're somebody who's struggling, or even somebody who's not struggling, you're just hearing us out.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

Yeah. I think you highlighted, you know, something important is it's a it's a difficult journey, whether you're dealing with mental health, addiction, or both, it's difficult. There's no our healthcare system makes it difficult, and outside of that, just finding your way through it makes it difficult. Um and not giving up hope. I think it goes back to you know what one moment, you know. Um, take it one moment at a time if you have to, but don't give up before the miracle happens, like you said, you know, because you're worth it and you don't know whose life you'll change once you're out on the other side of this.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

You know, no, you're right. You know, I just had a speak uh Saturday night, and this is what I encourage people to do, you know, and I love Martin Lawrence, who's one of my favorite movie actors too. Again, uh, I do a lot of you know, when I'm doing therapy, I uh do a lot of quoting from you know, could be from movies or what have you, TV shows, or what have you, even theorists. I uh will quote from but Martin Lawrence said in 2023 when he was giving a speech about jumping on a dream bus. And he said, you know, get on that, you know, dream, get on that bus of dreams with hope, confidence, and I'm gonna modify it some with hope, confidence, uh, grace, humility, honor, integrity, loyalty, lack of doubt, lack of fear. Jump on that bus and ride that joke until the wheels fall off. I was just saying. Right now, you might get on another bus at the end of that bus ride because those wheels might fall off, or that engine might blow, or that you or that, or that bus might blow up or something, right? And you might have to get on another bus. That's okay. Get on that bus and ride the joker till the wheels fall off again. Take whatever many buses you need. Because again, it's about not quitting before the miracle happens. So it might take 20 buses, it might take 30 buses, it might even take two buses, don't no matter. You know, go out there. Don't be afraid. Live life to the absolute fullest. Get into recovery, get your, you know, help get your folks into recovery, regardless of it's substance use or mental health. And it's all about us riding this bus and having fun, living life, learning, and just exploring.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Well, I would like to thank you, Kevin, for joining us today. Um your expertise as a licensed clinical mental health counselor and addiction specialist, and your journey with One Moment Podcast. You've offered us a lot here. Um, you've given us a lot of a lot of insight, very important insight, uh, very genuine insight into you as a clinician and you as a human being, and how you treat addiction and mental health. Um, and I can I appreciate generally how you connect with your patients and and your audience and the change that you're trying to bring through your work and through your podcast and through social media. And for all those that want to learn more about Kevin and his podcast, um, the links, as always, will be you know in the show notes. And again, his podcast is called One Moment. It's a wonderful podcast. Please check it out. Um, and a gentle reminder to everybody listening: if anything we uh touched on today um triggered anything with you, um, please know that reaching out is a sign of strength. Never hesitate to connect with a trusted friend, family member, professional, medical resource, clergy, whatever it takes, like Kevin said, don't give up hope. You know, and I want to thank everyone for listening and for tuning in. And we will see you all next time.