From Guilt to Growth: Tony Harte on Stoicism and Recovery

Host Cat York talks with Tony Harte, founder of A Stoic Sobriety, about how ancient Stoic principles compliment AA’s 12 steps. Tony shares his 36-year sobriety journey, explains stoicism’s true meaning (not emotion suppression), and shows practical tools—like the dichotomy of control and the power of the pause—to manage guilt, shame, and social media pressures in recovery.

Tony explains how stoicism supports the 12 steps, encourages actionable daily practices, and emphasizes community duty. The episode offers book recommendations, recovery advice for newcomers, and resources at AStoicSobriety.com.

Connect with Tony Harte and the Stoic Sobriety community by visiting https://astoicsobriety.com up for the weekly newsletter.

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The discussions and opinions expressed on this podcast are solely those of the host and guests and should not be considered professional medical, psychological, or clinical advice.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Call of Her Cat Podcast. A show dedicated to honest conversations about addiction, recovery, and finding the strength to break the cycle. I'm your host, Kat York, and this is where we get real about the messy, complex, and often unspoken truth of what it means to heal. If you're working to redefine your story, searching for connection, you simply need to know that you're not alone. You've come to the right place. My mission is to hold space for the wrong direct stories of people, including my own, who have walked this path. We dive into the generational trauma, the personal battles, and the profound lessons learned along the way. Before we begin, the views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and the guests. This content is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and is not intended to be professional advice. Please consult a qualified professional for guidance specifics to your situation. Today we have the privilege of hearing from Tony Hart, who is the founder of a Stoic Sobriety, a program dedicated to empowering recovery with Stoic wisdom. With over thirty-six years of continuous sobriety since 1989 and professional experience in addiction treatment, he helps individuals evolve in their recovery journey. His unique approach combines the tried and true approaches of the AA 12 step program with the ancient logical wisdom of Stoicism. Offering a path to enlightenment and strength for all, regardless of their background or belief. You can also follow him on his you can also follow him for updates on his Instagram as well. Welcome, Tony. Thank you for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Kat. I've been uh looking forward to this conversation for a while.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Did I miss anything? Did you want to add anything about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, no, I think you you you covered it pretty well. I think uh it might be important for folks to know that you know the the 12 steps of AA are the foundation, the rock of my recovery. Uh, and I use stoicism just to build on and help me practice, you know, a lot of the principles that that we already have in AA. So uh there's a natural set of parallels there that that we'll we'll talk more about. But but yeah, I'm I'm not trying to create a uh a new recovery program or anything crazy like that. Just uh over the years, I've I've always just wanted to continue to grow and uh found that stoicism has helped me do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Can you start by defining what stoicism is?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yes, and thank you for starting off with that question because that is uh you know kind of one of the things that when when people hear uh stoicism, they they usually refer to you know how we use the word stoic in English language today, which is you know, somebody that has a stiff upper lip and you know pushes down their emotions and is you know just a kind of automaton. Um and that's that is not at all uh what stoicism itself is about. Uh the ancient stoic philosophers, I mean, they felt grief, they felt anger, they felt joy, I mean, they they they embraced feelings. Um but the focus of Stoicism is is really about not being ruled by our feelings. So we embrace them, we feel them, but but but we know enough about our feelings and enough about ourselves that we can choose our response, you know, to how we how we react to those feelings instead of just you know using our our Neanderthal brain and the fight or flight or you know, any of those. It's a rational approach to managing, not controlling, but managing our responses uh to our feelings uh you know in a useful way. And we in AA we talk about the power of the pause, right? So something happens, pause for a second, don't just instantly react to it, because your first reaction, especially for an addict, may not be the right action. So um that that's it, that's exactly you know what what the Stoics preach is they call them impressions. So, you know, anytime we get an impression, whether that's starting a conversation, somebody saying something to us, you know, somebody pulling out in traffic, anything like that is an impression. So so we get an impression and we pause, right? And then we we choose our response to that. So I think the big misconception about stoicism is that it's it's about not feeling or avoiding feelings. And uh in reality, that's that's the the first furthest thing from the truth. Um, you know, that they teach they teach us to challenge our feelings, right? So um is this real? Is it as it is it as bad as it seems, you know, am I am I overlaying my own story in my mind on what's happening? Um so get you know, get get clear about about what that feeling and comes with. And over time, you know, you have to practice, but you like everything else, you get better, right? Right. That pause takes less and less time. Uh, but then they also give us you know the the four virtues of wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. Um, and in that pause, uh, we have the virtues in the back of our mind, and they're they're very prescriptive about what these virtues mean. Uh, and they don't necessarily mean like justice is not necessarily, you know, uh getting a posse together and going after people that had a different uh different context for the Stoics, but basically, and this is stoicism at the highest level, but basically you pause, you think about what your reaction is gonna be, and you want your reaction to be aligned with these virtues, right? So you want to be a virtuous person, you want to do the right thing, you wanna, you know, be able to go to bed at night and sleep without guilt and and all those stuff. So so it at its highest level, it's it's just that, right? It's it's it's basically I have an emotion, I look at it, and as I'm thinking through my response, I'm applying these virtues because I want to respond appropriately, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Um, and then the other thing that they really teach us, again, this is a core value in stoicism, is uh in modern terms it's called dichotomy of control. But the way the the way they said it, like Epictetus was one of the philosophers, and he simply said, some things are up to us, some are not. So, you know, they really divide the the focus into what we can control, right? That that's where we should be spending our energy. And you know, even we can have some delusions about what we control, right? You might think you have control over your adult children, but you really don't. Uh so you have to get honest. Yeah, you have to get honest about you know what you what you really can and can't control. Um, and at the end of the day, if you're being really, really honest, the only thing you can control is you. Yeah, right. The only thing I can control are my you know, my thoughts and my reactions. Uh, you know, somebody once told me that that uh I get a freebie on my first thought because it's it's always gonna be wrong. And and and then I get the chance to adjust it. So I don't judge myself on the first thought, right? I judge myself on the mindful thought, uh, which I like that too, because it's like, why you know, why am I why do I always think bad things? Like, right, and it's like, well, just excuse that first thought, because that that's the addict in you, and uh move move on to the second part of it. Um but yeah, but and then you know it if if anybody hasn't done this practice of really trying to look at life and and address the things we can control versus can't control, it it is very liberating. I mean, I mean it it it it gives us a freedom. Um and probably the last thing is, you know, this sounds kind of like all external or internal work, right? It's like all kind of self-focused on a how do we make ourselves better, but the the Stoics didn't look at it that way. Part of Stoicism, and this comes in the justice virtue, is you know, we have a duty to community. You know, we're not just you know selfishly trying to make our own lives better. The idea is get your damn house in order and then go show up for others. Uh and that's the exact, you know, again, one of those parallels to to AA is you know, we we keep coming back and we share our experience, strength, and hope, and and that's our duty, right? Because somebody somebody did it for us. So that's that's just kind of taking the the the top layer off of um kind of some of the you know misrepresentations of of what stoicism is.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

I'm happy that you mentioned that because stoicism is often misunderstood as being about like suppressing your emotions.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yes, exactly. And uh when you're again, and it really comes from the way we use the word stoic today, uh versus you know, wh how how it was used in in ancient times.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

How can you mention um stoicism is ancient wisdom for modern recovery?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Now in what way do you feel that the modern challenges to sobriety, like social media pressure um makes stoicism even more important than maybe 30 years ago or twenty years ago even?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think you know there there's there's multiple uh things where I think it it really really applies, and I think you know dichotomy of control, which is is what you know we we talk about and I bang that drum a lot because it it is so important, especially in social media, right? Because if if if you're just kind of haunting you know social media and just looking at things, there's there's not a lot. I mean you can block a lot of that stuff out mentally, but if you're active and you're having conversations with people and you're you're you know making comments to posts, there's a lot of people that are uh you know very brave behind their keyboards, uh, and then they say not nice things and they make judgments and and so again that instead of getting caught up in that, uh, you know, that's not something I can control, right? So I j I just ignore it. Whereas if if you know in recovery, if I start letting that stuff eat at me and I start building resentments, you know, which is our number one enemy, you know, towards people on social media and stuff, then I'm just I'm feeding my disease. I'm I'm you know giving it the fuel to you know take me into a relapse if I let it go too far. So I I think especially today with you know it's it's it to it's just insane, right? Uh all I couldn't imagine being a child growing up today. Uh but but it's just insane all the information that that comes at you, whether it's political or social media or or or whatever else that our minds have to parse. Um and if you get too engaged or too committed to any of those channels without understanding, you know, that there's only certain things I can control. So I I can't get wound up about any of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

No.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Uh it it's sad that it's going on, it's sometimes funny that it's going on, you know, it it can easily lead you to anger. Um but but I think that's that's uh one of the big things. I I think the other big thing, you know, that that the stoics teach us is that you know when we when we have one of these impressions, right? When when somebody says something to us, you know, we put our own story on top of that, right? So if my background is, you know, I've I've been bullied or criticized or something like that all my life, then I may take the most you know unhurtful comment in the wrong way, but the story I build around it is they're judging me. Right. You know, somebody somebody could say, hey, that's a great shirt you got on today, and you know, you my mind goes, huh, well, they've kind of you know been short with me in the past, so I don't think that was actually a comment uh actually a compliment. You know, I think they were you know they were saying something uh negative about me. So we we build our in our minds we add stories to what's really going on. And that makes it you know harder for us to respond appropriately because we're just responding out of our own context. So, you know, one of the things the Stoics encourage us to do is to to challenge and to see where we're you know overlaying these stories on what's really happening. Uh and you know, you nobody's perfect. We've all got those filters, we've all got, you know, we all tell our stories. They're not saying stop the stories, they're just saying challenge the stories. Is this real?

unknown 16:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

And I think I think that's the biggest question in today's world, especially with social media, is this real? Uh because a lot of it's just not. I mean, even you know, people are you know building personas in their in their multi multimedia channels, and if you saw them out at the grocery store, they're not the person that they are, you know, on the internet. Um so I I think that's one of the key things is just you know being rational and trying to to determine what's real as opposed to just reacting to everything.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

At what point, because you've but you've had 36 years of continuous sobriety, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 17:19

That is correct.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

I don't know how congratulations on that, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

How at what point in your journey did you discover so stoicism?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, so you know, from the very beginning, I I went into treatment uh at the ripe old age of of 21 after having wrecked my uh second car drunk. Um and I had flown through the windshield and and uh the car landed about 20 feet from me, so that was as close to a near-death experience as I wanted to get. Uh so along with my parents' support, actually there they uh they recommended it, and uh I really didn't have a good argument against it. So uh so I I go into treatment and I grab the big book and I think I demolished that in like three days. Just once it got me hooked, I'm like, oh, this is me, this is me, this is me. I was all over that book. But you know, like like many people, um I wouldn't say I got hung up, but the got the God thing was something that was missing for me. I didn't grow up in a religious family, uh didn't have anything necessarily against religion, just I didn't have a context. Um so you know, early in sobriety and even to this day, you know, I just I I just became a spiritual seeker. Uh and and even today with with you know my my dedication to practice stoicism, I still read everything. I just finished a book of a uh book on you know uh Judaism, how you know how recovery, how Jewish people go through recovery and their challenges. So I I I've always had this kind of spiritual drive, but it was probably 25 or 30 years ago I picked up Marcus Aurelius, which he's probably one of the uh you know two most famous uh stoic philosophers, and I read it and it was interesting and everything. And then probably about 10 or 12 years ago, I picked up Seneca and Epictetus, and um when I was reading Epictetus, which his book's called the Enchyridian, um it it just clicked with me. I don't know if I was just in the right mindset or you know what happened, but I I got into that and it and it just clicked, and I'm like, you know what? This makes a lot of sense, and and it I've always kind of been a you know self-enclosed, kind of I can take care of it myself, you know, all that kind of stuff. And that that's kind of what and I looked at Buddhism for a while too, and that's Buddhism and Stoicism, what they have in common is a lot of accountability, right? Um you you're not necessarily turning things over to a deity, and it doesn't take a leap of faith to um to get there, they're they're really actionable, you know, kind of things I feel like I can do. Um while while I'm willing to take the leap of faith if if uh if my mind ever gets there, uh I just haven't been able to do the faith thing yet. So um so yeah, 10 or 12 years ago is when it when it really really clicked for me. So I've been studying it, you know, pretty hard for a decade or so.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

I I like that you um you lean on both. You know, I can I can see where they would complement each other.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Yeah, and that's quite well. You know, the the the program of AA and and as you read the book big book, I mean it it gives us a path, right? It gives us these steps to take to, you know, get us from point A to point B and get us sober. You know, and you know, it was written in the thirties, so Um so there there's not a lot of talk in there about you know mental health and anxiety and you know guilt there's guilt and shame but it you know you know there's not I mean we've got you know cognitive behavioral therapy now and we know a lot more about our brains and and so you know just if you just practice uh the program kind of in a vacuum and and the big book is is your bible i i do I do think people are missing out on opportunities to grow um just just because again just psychologically and everything else things have advanced a lot in the last hundred years right um so so I that's kind of where I was uh you you know I I practiced the program and and uh still practice the program uh but its limitations were you know I had a lot of mental health a lot of depression uh you know a lot of anxiety uh I'm a very anxious person uh and you know AA doesn't address that directly you can have the conversations in the rooms and you can talk to people and and all that stuff but if I want to go off and you know work myself on doing this stuff I I need to find I need to find a 12 steps for anxiety uh a 12 steps for depression you know what I mean uh because I I'm the one of the reasons AA really appealed to me is it's a path right take step one take step two so it you know that that resonates with me so I I want to you know go I need to go out and find something for my mental health uh that gives me those here do this do this do this think about it this way um so so that's where you know I I kind of overlay stoicism in in my you know personal case but I mean it could be anything it can be christianity it can be Buddhism it can be you know uh nature lover yeah what whatever just uh I just found that that limitation in AA when you get to a certain level of sobriety yeah um that you just want to keep growing uh and it's just that not always there unless you find you know people that are very much like minded in the rooms and you can go off and talk about this stuff uh over coffee and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

What inspired your um your website?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah so I think I think the 12th step you know really I had I'd I'd done a couple false starts over the years where where I'd I'd think you know this is something I want to do and and just one one day I'm just like you know stop stop trying just just do it but it it's really in the spirit of the 12th step I I just want to help others you know I just we want people to have tools want people to have other frameworks to explore you know I'm not I'm not uh I'm all about exploring and and you know finding our own paths there is no one path to sobriety there is no one path to spirituality there is no you know one path for any of us um so so really it was just a way for me to take everything I've learned from AA take everything I've learned from Stoicism and draw the parallels between the two and and just you know kind of it again I I I don't I don't look at it as a house I look at it as you know I've added a pool and a cabana to the backyard uh you know AA is my house uh but but I built on it uh built on it in a way that uh way that I enjoy so again it's just it it's it's kind of like for for people like myself that are doing a lot of seeking uh and and a lot of exploring and and just you know trying to find out more about you know how we can make the best of life in recovery how do how does how has stoicism helped you through the 12 steps of AA because those can get very very deep very heavy real quick yeah so I d I they you know I had already uh you know worked through the 12 steps a c a couple times you know and some of them obviously we we try to work every day um so I didn't really have the practice to apply when I was doing them but I do have articles on every step on my website that that walks through how to apply stoic principles when you're uh when you're going through the steps right so especially like you know the fourth and fifth step uh what what I talked about earlier is you know what was what's reality and what's the story we tell ourselves right so as we're we're as we're going through building our inventory and going through our resentments you know we can we can challenge those resentments that we've had and we go oh you know was it really that bad was it you know and and sometimes you you know you you can kind of dissolve some of those resentments just by taking a good hard look at them and and uh you know going hey do I have this resentment because they just didn't agree with with me or wouldn't do what I wanted them to do um you know was I trying to exercise control over something I really didn't have control over and I built a resentment around it um you know so it it's it's it's things like that and and obviously uh you know wisdom and courage come into a lot of steps uh you know when when you get to making amends you know it takes some courage and some wiz wisdom we don't don't want to make those amends that that'll be harmful to others uh you know we want to we'll we'll want to go into it you know with with a level of compassion and and uh but but it takes courage i mean all the steps take courage to be you know be be frank but um yeah that's that's aga again they they didn't have a huge impact on me just because I had done mine previous to uh you know except the ones that I I regularly work had done them uh beforehand but um but I do have guidance on on the website you know when you're going through a fourth step you know here's some stoic principles that that can help you navigate this step for those who aren't familiar what what is the fourth step oh gee sh it's basically taking a fearless uh moral inventory of ourselves uh so that's when we sit down sit down with a piece of paper and you know draw some columns on there and say here list all my resentments and and uh who they're against and what they're about um and and it's that list of resentments that that we want to you know we want to address we want to part of all steps four through nine um are are really about getting rid of the guilt and shame that we carry from our addiction into our recovery uh and when and if we're carrying that baggage around it it's really hard to move forward uh you know when you're you're thinking you know poorly of of yourself all the time or you know focused on on what you did wrong and so you know all through the like I said the the fourth through uh the the ninth steps about you know getting rid of that baggage um and and it and it all starts with you know making a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves uh so so that you know that kicks off and then and then we move on in in the fifth step to admitting to God what our faults are right and the nature of our wrongs. Then we you know ask God to to help us you know deal with these defects of character ask him to humbly remove them and then then we make a list and it comes out of the fourth step but you know we have this list of people that we've got resentments around or that we've done bad things to um and we go out and we make amends for that uh you know regardless of with the exception of you know we don't want to hurt other people we don't want to make amends that are going to hurt people but at the same time at the at the same time we can't be selfish and say I don't want to make this amends because I'm afraid they'll yell at me and I'll feel bad. Right. So it's just it's it's something that that we've got to go through to to dump that baggage. Um so yeah that's it like I said for for each of the steps you know even you know admitting the powerlessness and and and all the way through uh I I just talk about those parallels when you're going through the steps a lot of heavy emotions will come up like shame guilt regret even depression though not an emotion you'll certainly can spiral into certain things how does stoicism like support that process yeah because that's like you said AA is like your home and stoicism is like the pool so it's a nice compliment how does it support those heavy feelings yeah I think and that's again where where where there's a big parallel so I kind of break that down into you know past guilt you know present guilt like something I did today and and shame right so you know the the past guilt uh is is really where one of the big parallels is i is is the stoics basically say you know I identify the situation uh you know figure out what I did wrong and fix it and move on right right which is basically you know that that's what steps four through nine give us uh is that step by step to do exactly that right and then you know this will lead lead into shame but really the past guilt they would have the same approach right it's just you know analyze it and make it right and move on uh right because it because it's not worth our time and energy it's not something we can control today um as far as present guilt you know Seneca has a passage and my desktop so I'll I'll just read it here real quick uh because my memory won't won't do it justice. Um but basically he says you know when the light has been taken away and my wife has fallen silent aware as she is of my habit I examine my entire day uh which is you know what we do as well uh going through what I've done and said I conceal nothing from myself I pass nothing by I have nothing to fear from my errors when I can say see that you do not do this anymore for the moment I excuse you and so I mean I think that's it just a powerful way of you know looking at the guilt that may have come up today right it's like and and maybe I have to go back and make amends but at the same time you know my commitment to myself is I don't do that anymore right don't do it again dummy and you won't have to go through this process and identify it again. And if you do do it again I'll see you tomorrow night uh but but but uh yeah I think the most powerful part of that is is for the moment I excuse you right so you know we're we're acknowledging that we're human that we're gonna make mistakes and uh and this leads into shame right the difference between guilt and shame is guilt is I've done something bad shame is I am bad right you know shame is that that you know we take it and we again build our own stories around the guilt uh and build ourselves up into bad people when when we're not bad people we just we make bad decisions we say dumb stuff you know we're we're just human right so uh a little bit on on on the shame I think the stoic stoics take you know a little bit harsher maybe harsh isn't the right word a little stronger stance on it as you know is shame is all about how we think about ourselves and and we can control our thinking and even if it's not you know I can control it right this second I can I can practice over time right and and it's it's something I can control um so you know the the the stoics would would would basically say go through that effort right get your thinking right you are not a bad person uh you can control this yeah so they would look at chronic shame really as you know this is just self-inflicted suffering and and you hold the key to the room when when when you want to leave the room use the key right um so so that's uh again I think it's it's a again very much in line with you know what what AA tells us is you know they were big on journaling big on reviewing reviewing their day day so you know they they were doing the tenth step long before we were um and and and again the importance of getting rid of that guilt and and for us you know they didn't have steps four through nine but and they didn't you know prescriptively say here's how to get rid of your past guilt um but they said get rid of it and fix it and move on so they try to put you is it correct is it accurate to say that stoicism tries to put you in the driver's seat of your emotions doesn't want to get rid of not doesn't want you to get rid of them but want you just to that is exactly right is is it is about not letting the emotions rule ourselves right so we're we're in control again we may not be in control of the the emotion like I can't stop grieving when a close friend dies or my mom die. I can't stop the grief you know but what what I can do is is in that in that in that pause I I can not you know act dumbly out of that grief. Like I may I don't run out and grab a sledgehammer and start bashing my car because I'm so overwhelmed with grief. That's that's your that's your emotions driving like you said.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

So yeah it's not again like you said it's not about not feeling it's about not letting those feelings you know rule your life now I imagine in in 36 years of continuous sobriety your your understanding of sobriety has changed as compared to like the first day or the first year. What are some changes or how has your sobriety evolved from when you first entered the rooms Yeah I think you know especially early on I I was I was resentful that I was an addict.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

I was one of those people you know I wasn't like wallowing in it and saying oh why me why me but at the same time I wasn't very frickin' happy about it. I was like all my buddies are still out there getting drunk and using and damn it I can't well I can but you know I I I know the consequences so and I don't want to suffer the consequences so I'm not gonna do it. But I think that was you know something that that evolved to you know over over time you know being an addict I I couldn't be more grateful today and I wouldn't change a single thing if I had it to do all over again because being an addict forced me you know into yeah I I hate to use these words because they're so cliche but but um it forced me into self-improvement right it it forced me into being a better person that I could live with. And I I think one of the other things that's that's really changed over time is you know how I how I think about addiction. You know I have learning early in sobriety you know it's not wrong you know they call it a chemical dependency right and and um you know that there's other ways that that people look upon addictions but I think you know I was an addict long before I picked up my first drink or drug um you know all through my childhood I was just uncomfortable in my own skin. You know I was I can't remember maybe oh eighth or ninth grade I I ran cross country in in school and they let us let they let us put our own nicknames on the back of our jerseys and I literally the nickname I put on the jersey was insane. You know even at that age I just I was just not comfortable in my own skin. I just knew something was off uh and you know whatever that is the anxiety or I'm not enough or you know there's there's lots of things that that that feed into that but but really what what happened was when I picked up you know that that first drink and that drug is you know I got relief from that all the all of a sudden I was more comfortable in my skin you know and I could I could I could deal with life a little bit better because I was more comfortable in my skin. And you know the difference the the difference between an addict and like a problem drinker Or a heavy drinker is the addict enjoys it early on. I mean, we enjoy, we we get joy out of it, but at some point, you know, it it turns on us. Um, and for somebody that, you know, may have been drunk all the time and you know, always partying and stuff like that, they get to this point where um, you know, where the consequences are are too high and they just and they can stop. For the addict, you know, the it it becomes, this is my solution to life. I'm not doing I'm not doing this to have a good time. I'm doing it because this helps me function uh with this you know, addictive kind of whatever uh do that's going on within within me. And and I I can't I I can't I can't stop. This is this is my solution. Um and and then you know, you know, everybody that's been through early sobriety knows that you know it it it wasn't I'm trying to think of the best way to put this. Um it it it again again it it it it's our lifeblood. So, you know, when we take away our solution, the addict doesn't get better. You know, when you take away the drugs and alcohol, we don't get better, we get worse for a while. And uh, you know, that's where AA comes in and gives us, you know, uh a roadmap for living uh to help us back into, you know, now I have I now I have a way to approach life that I can manage as opposed to needing, you know, the my other solution. Uh so I think just my my view of addiction, you know, a lot of people uh you know might feel shame as they get into early addiction um because they're an addict just because uh the stigma is a lot lighter, you know, these days, but it's it's uh certainly still out there. Um so so I really have kind of molded my view of of what addiction is, is it's not, I mean, the the core of it is I I was an addict long before I was an addict. I just didn't find my solution.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Um and probably the last thing that I uh early on, I I got you know a little too caught up. I was I I lived in AA. Uh I was still in college. We had a clubhouse on campus. I'd go in there and take naps during, you know, between classes. So I literally lived, you know, in the clubhouse and and those were my my people and I was grateful for it. Uh but but I got a little bit caught up uh too much, and I think part of it was because some of the folks that I uh like to hang around with had very strong opinions. Um so I kind of fell into that rut of, yeah, this is the right way. Uh I've really you know learned over time again, I think I said it earlier, but we all have our own journey. We have all have our own ways that we're getting there. Um I can't I can't have to suspend my judgment of what people are doing, what they're saying, and everything else, because they're talking about their journey, not my journey. Um and and I have to let them take their journey, right? I can I can offer inputs, I can offer my own experience. Uh, but at the end of the day, nobody's doing anything wrong. They're just doing their journey. Some some journeys lead to relapse, multiple relapses, some journeys. Uh I've been I was fortunate that that I'd never had to do that. Uh, but again, I don't I suspend judgment on people who do relapse because it it's part of their journey.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Uh uh, you know, it's not that they're bad people, it's not, you know, on the surface you can always say, well, they didn't work the program or what whatever. But the reality is they're on their own damn journey, right? And it's none of my business. So I know it's that that's what th those are the types of the probably the couple things that have evolved, you know, over the years with me.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

So sobriety, especially early sobriety, especially now with just everything. Um, social media and everything is not I feel it's gotten even more challenging. Um and what is what is a piece of advice you would give to someone who's early in recovery?

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Oh, that's a great question. Um there's probably two pieces. I'm gonna take your one and raise you one. Uh uh so probably the biggest thing is as long as you don't drink or drug and you're trying to work the program, you have time. You you can't fix your past, and you can't solve all of today's problems today.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Yeah, I was a very uh I mentioned earlier I was very anxious. So early in recovery, I mean I was looking around at what all these other people had in sobriety, and I'm like, I want that stuff from now. Get me to this zen, get me to this. I'm happy about being an addict, get me, you know, you know, and it's it, I think I think we're just not patient enough with ourselves early in recovery. Um and and it's it's because you know, we get in there and we get excited because we see the path, right? We're like, man, this this is gonna work. And and and we don't take into account our our human limitations that you know, working through these steps, like you said, it brings up a lot of emotions. It brings up a lot of stuff, and when that stuff comes up, you gotta deal with it. Um so you know, it's it my bet my best advice is be very serious about your program. Do not drink or drug today, and it it'll get better. It'll get worse at times, but in the long run, it'll get better. Um and and trust that because many, many, many, many people have have walked this path uh successfully. So there's more evidence than we should ever need that this works, right? So just like I said, one day at a time, it's it's our it's our mantra, but one day at a time, you know, just keep at it and don't be hard on yourself. That that would be my first one. And my second one would be back to the dichotomy of control, right? Early in sobriety, especially, is do your absolute best to block out the things that you cannot control.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

You know, that you if you've been on, you know, if you've been an addict for a long time and maybe you've relapsed, you know, you people's, you know, family are like, oh, this isn't gonna work, it's never worked for you before. I can't control that opinion. Let them have it, right? Right. You know, there's there's grumpy people at meetings, you know, saying, oh, you only went to you know one meeting this week, you should do 30 and 30. And you know, the the reality is if if I could have been at seven meetings this week, I would have, but I had a sick child and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I can't control their opinion. I can't, you know, I can't let that bother me. There's, you know, we get we get into so much debt. Uh a lot of us when we're when we're in our active addiction, I can't pay that off today. What can I control? If I've got an extra $20, I pay it down. That's the best I can do today. Uh, so it's really, you know, and it's hard. Uh, and I realize it's, you know, it it it it takes a while and takes some practice to really, you know, uh determine what we can and can't control in a lot of a lot of situations. And sometimes we use the I can't control it as a cop-out, right? Like, oh wait, you can really have some influence on that. Oh no, I can't control it, so I'm just gonna not deal with it. So it's kind a little bit of a double-edged sword, but but you know, if if you it if you focus on all the stuff you can't control, you can't focus on what's important.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Right. In early sobriety, I can relate to what you're saying. You walk into the rooms and you're like, I want what that person has.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

You know, they but they've had 15, 20 years together. They didn't just walk in there and be like, you know, I'm you know, I'm spiritually enlightened, like it took a lot of hardship and a lot of work and a lot of you know, the steps and daily shows a quote I like or a slogan that I like with a is you can't get by on yesterday's sobriety. It's like it's an everyday thing. As long as you keep showing up.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

You know. Yeah, well, but I think we we enter into early recovery with the the same mindset that that we leave addiction in, in that that I'm different, I'm special, you know. It's like in add an addiction, it's like, oh, I'm not an addict, I'm not like so-and-so, or I'm not like blah blah blah, or I can control it. So we're we're kind of like, I'm special, I'm the I'm the one-off. And then, you know, sometimes I think in the back of our minds, we're like, yeah, it took them 20 years, but hell, I can get it in six months. I'm special.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

I'm special. I think that I think the term that I liked one time was uh terminally unique.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

That is the perfect tag.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

Okay. Now um you have a lot of great resources on a stoicsobriety.com, your website. What are some good like, or what's a good starter book on stoicism that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Yeah, I would uh I'd recommend uh Marcus Aurelis's Meditations. Uh actually what it is is it's a personal journal of his. He never intended uh you know to have it published or anything. It was something that somebody found later. So it's it's really uh you know how he's applying these principles in his in his everyday life. Um there's there's lots of uh great authors out there like uh Ryan Holiday, Donald Robertson, uh that that give you know really nice higher level overviews of Stoicism and applying them to life. Uh so I I like they're probably two of my favorite authors on uh uh applying Stoicism to you know uh to the times. So those three are probably the the best, you know, one of Ryan or Donald's books and and uh meditations by Marcus are are are really good starting points.

SPEAKER_03 57:00

And once again, your website has a lot of good resources, not just about stoicism, but about AA.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

It's important to know that there's both a lot of resources there for for those um and really what I take do is I I'll I take uh I take recovery topics and draw the parallels as I talk through the topic. Uh it's it's the articles aren't just about stoicism in that topic. I'm talking in general about recovery in that topic, like how important humility is and stuff like that. But then I, you know, interspersed the how stoicism parallels that. So, you know, at its heart, it's a recovery website. I just uh you know blend in the stoicism as a as a you know extra framework that you can you can bring to bear in your recovery.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

Any last words of wisdom you'd like to leave us with?

SPEAKER_00 58:06

No, just uh chill out, people. It's all gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

That is actually a very valuable piece of advice. Um, what is it? Rule 86, like don't take yourself too seriously.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Yes, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

So thank you, Tony. Uh thank you for meeting with us today. Um to wrap on another episode. A huge thank you to Tony Hart, the founder of StoicSobriety.com. I appreciate you all tuning in and sticking with me for all the show links, the notes, and information on today's guest, Tony Hart. Visit my podvein site at UnityYork.podbean.com. You can also connect with me on social media. The links are in the description. And all the links from today's guests will be in the description as well. Um, and a reminder that really the best way to support is by hitting the subscribe button and leaving a positive review. And I want to thank you so much for listening. I want to thank Tony again. I really appreciated your time today learning about stoicism and how it really is AA and your sobriety. And congratulations again on your 36 years of sobriety.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

It's a beautiful thanks, and thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 59:25

Absolutely.