Stuart L. Morris - The Neurodivergent Threshold: What Comes After Hello

Stuart L. Morris is a bestselling author, serial entrepreneur, and master celebrant whose work sits at the intersection of entrepreneurial thinking and sacred ceremony. He is the author of the Amazon #1 Bestseller, Choose Now: The Expert Guide to Elite Entrepreneurial Living, and has spent decades teaching at institutions like Henley Business School, helping people design lives of autonomy and purpose.

As the Founder and Chairman of the International College of Professional Celebrants (ICPC), Stuart has trained thousands of officiants to hold space for life’s biggest thresholds. His unique synthesis of human spirituality, neuroscience, and ritual is designed to help individuals and organizations cross the big thresholds of life—from birth and marriage to redundancy and death—on purpose rather than on autopilot.

His latest book, Hello. I Love You. Goodbye: Reclaiming the Ancient Rites of Passage for a Life Lived Well, is set for publication at Easter 2026.

A neurodivergent thinker, retired Magistrate, and Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, Stuart lives in the Yorkshire Dales, where he hosts retreats at High Trenhouse, walks his English Cream Golden Retriever, and flies his restored 1961 V-tail Bonanza

https://choosenowbook.com

Love the conversation?  Want to be a guest? Support the Call Her Cat Podcast mission to redefine the story of addiction and recovery. The easiest way to help is to subscribe on your favorite platform and share this episode with a friend. We always love hearing from our listeners!

Call Her Cat Podcast Links

The Call Her Cat Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content and discussions are not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or therapy. Please always consult with a qualified health professional with any questions about your individual health or mental health condition. If you or someone you know is in crisis, please seek immediate professional help.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi everybody, and welcome to Call Her Cat. Today I will be talking with Stuart L. Morris, who is a best-selling author, serial entrepreneur, and master celebrant, whose work sits at the intersection of entrepreneurial thinking and sacred ceremony. He is the author of an Amazon number one bestseller, choose now, the expert guide to elite entrepreneurial living, and has spent decades teaching at institutions like Henley Business School, helping people design lives of autonomy and purpose. As the founder and chairman of the International College of Professional Celebrants, Stewart has trained trained thousands of officials to hold space for life's biggest thresholds. His unique synthesis of human spirituality, neuroscience, and ritual is designed to help individuals and organizations cross the big thresholds of life. From birth and marriage to redundancy and death and purpose, rather than an autopilot. His latest book, Hello, I Love You, Goodbye, proclaiming the ancient rites of passage for a life well-lived, is set for publication at Easter 2026. A neurodivergent thinker, retired magistrate, and fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, Stuart lives in the Yorkshire Dales, where he hosts retreats at High Trent House, walks his English cream golden retriever, and flies his restored 1961 V-tail bonanza. And before I kick it over to Stuart, I just have a disclaimer I have to read. This podcast is not intended to replace professional and medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have. And with that, I'll throw it over to you, Stuart. Did I miss anything?

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Oh, so much, but we'll hear all month if we if we try to list everything I've done in my life. Yeah, it's um it's always weird hearing somebody you know kind of read a summary of your bio because you think, did I really do that? And then you think, oh no, but there's this other thing I did that that was missed out. But yeah, it's and and it's not about the CV, the resume, uh, for the American listeners. It's you know, it's very much about the journey. And I think that's the thing that I've really really learned, you know, in the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands. I I really have lost count of funerals that I've uh officiated, that I've written, created, sometimes with the person before they died, more often than not, with their families afterwards. You realize so many people kind of just get through life. They've they've done college, they they got married, they got a job, they climbed the corporate ladder, they had kids, they retired, they played golf, they died.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

And people might say that was a life well lived. And you know, what was it? I twist that and say, Is that a life lived well? Was that person truly happy? Were they living their best life, or were they living the life they thought was expected of them? And I think that's been that was the genesis of the first book, The Choose Now. It's like you you get to choose what life you lead. Um, yeah, and um yeah, it was it's been a huge sort of revelational journey for myself, um, as much as something that I'm trying to share with other people.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah, I can imagine um being in the like the field that you're in and doing that, being with those families, um, what that's like. And I I've I've listened to books. Um, there was a book that I listened to recently, it was confessions of a of a funeral director. And it wasn't like what you thought it was gonna be, it was more like life lessons, you know, and he said something similar to what you touched on. Um it was really a powerful book. And what is it like when you hear your resume, so to speak, like repeated back to you?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

You know, I think for so many of us, there's also that sense of imposter syndrome. You know, I I've won awards for my teaching. I the International College of Professional Celebrants is the largest training college for efficients in the world by some measure. And and I don't think of it that way. I see all the failures, I see the the accidents, I see the the things that I got wrong, the relationships I messed up. Um and so it, you know, so this was that really me? Oh no, I did I did do that early on. I can be proud of that, but the internal monologue is um yeah, no, no, let me go and hide. Um so yeah, it can be it can be challenging to hear those things. But I think also, you know, yeah, I fly my own airplane. I've wanted that airplane since I was 10 years old. It took me 45 years to to achieve that, and and you know that is a very materialistic win in a sense. It's a right, you know, and then to restore a vintage aeroplane is is something that's you know a bit of a labour of love. You certainly don't count the the dollars going through because it makes no financial sense to do something like that. Um so I'm in a very privileged position that I've been able to achieve that childhood dream. Yeah. And I know you know I've a friend who runs her self-employed business, and you know, all she's trying to do is put food on the table in front of her children. You know, there's no long-term goal, but her business is just success, just as successful as any of mine have ever been, because it's doing what it needs to do for her and her family. Um and I think that's something that you then build your six-figure business, build your seven-figure business, build your multi-seven-figure, none of that matters. It's build a business that is, or your career, or whatever it is, in a way that's feeding your soul and doing what you need it to do. And and if you need, you know, especially as neurodivergent people, so many of us get sort of wrapped up in masking in in other people's dreams, and we're not actually looking after ourselves, we're burning ourselves out. And you know, I've been there, I've been to the the pits of of mental health. Um, and then to take the step back and say, this isn't me, this isn't what I need, this isn't what I want. You know, I lived in the in the heart of the Thames Valley, which is sort of the the British equivalent of the Silicon Valley, you know, it's very high pressure, lots of people, lots of noise. 25 minutes to central London. Um and now I live in the middle of nowhere. You know, it it takes 10 minutes to get to the nearest village. You know, my nearest neighbour is half a mile away. Um, you know, my girlfriend and I were walking the dog this morning, and you know, we bumped into somebody we see once a month walking their dog. You know, it's it's it's it's there is nobody up here. But it's it's meeting my need for peace and and and helping me regulate me. And I know I'm in an incredibly privileged position to have been able to make those things happen, but equally I've worked stupidly hard to make those things happen. You know, there's there is no substitute for being in the right place at the right time when the good luck strikes. Um, what's that saying? The harder I work, the luckier I get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

No, and I think you know, I you touched briefly on your neurodiversity, and you you found out later in life that you're neurodiverse, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

When I was eight, I couldn't read and write. Um I felt like I was written off. Um, you know, I was the kid that was bouncing off the wall at the back of the class. Um and certainly you know, going through what in the UK we call primary school, you know, up to sort of age 10. Um I was just making no progress. Um secondary school, high school is oh um, yeah, I'm not how sure how you how you map it on, but you know, um that was where I kind of began to find my pace, find things I was interested in, um get better. It was still always a a struggle. I was constantly bullied and um didn't fit into to any of the the groups of kids. And and I think as neurodivergent people, whether it's autism, ADHD, both, uh, and often they they happen together. Um and you know for women they happen differently, they the the the symptoms or the the way they express are different, combined with dyslexia, with the just the sheer slog of trying to read and write um was really hard. So I and I think that experience is common, and and you've met you know, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person because everybody expresses it differently, but there are their traits in the way the mind works. Um, there's a lot of depression in autistic people simply because you're trying to pretend to be normal, as it were, and you're just burning out constantly. Um and then ADHD comes with its own things, so the sort of impulsive behavior and risk-taking behavior because what your brain is seeking is dopamine. Um, and I've spent an awful lot of time trying to understand these things to sort of help myself. Um but you know, so you end up with potentially damaging addiction type behaviors because your brain is seeking uh pain relief and dopamine, and you just end up spiraling. So it's it is something that brings with it a load of challenges. But equally, you know, every dyslexic person I ever met had a superpower. Um, you for me, it was computing and data analysis and seeing patterns in things, which you know was the first part of my career, and now I spend all my time with people and writing and looking at the way rites of passage and and structure of life, which is very not computational, but it is about um it look it's very, very different, but in some ways not. Um you know, and and I see friends with young children who are dyslexic, you know. How can we help? Find the thing that they're really good at and and push that. Don't worry about the reading, it will come because often they're very bright, they can work out the ways around it. Um, you know, I have another friend who runs a very successful business and it depends upon her ADHD. If she was an ADHD, that that business would not work. Um because it's just her constantly connecting things and and joining people up. And and you know, autistic people in general have phenomenal focus, so you know you need something really, really done in detail, and then give it to the autistic person who's going to dive right down into the nitty-gritty. These are huge generalizations, but you're oh right.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

No, of course.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Humanity needs all of us. You know, if if it wasn't for the autistic people, we'd still be in caves.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Oh, yeah. No, my and my son, he he shares your diagnosis of autism and dyslexia. And his thing is drawing. Um that's his that's his where he focuses. And I you touched on something when you're talking about where you live, how you live kind of removed from like the major population, how that helps you self-regulate. You know, and how how difficult is it for you to if you're not autistic, you don't have dyslexia, how difficult it is it for you to manage self-regulation while running business at such a large scale?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I mean, granted, you don't do it alone, but I mean Well, that was the key thing was learning to delegate, learning to give up control, um, learning to let to trust other people to do their jobs. And I think that's a thing that that entrepreneurs often don't recognize is is that you can't be the master of everything. So you have to let other people do their best, and sometimes they'll let you down, and it's okay, um, because unless you do that, you cannot scale. And uh for some people, you know, self-employment, running their own little business, that's all they need, that that's all it's ever going to be, that's fine. You know, for me, there was always it needed to be bigger. I I my kids, I have three adult sons, and they're always joking about how competitive dad is. And and I don't see myself as competitive because I'm not trying to beat other people, I'm just trying to be the best I can be. Um and for me, there's a net there's there's a distinction there, but for other people, they just see it as this kind of on a brutal competitiveness. You know, if I'm trying to run a hundred meters in the Olympics, I'm losing badly. The only thing, and I'm okay with that because it's not my superpower, right? But what I do get to control is how badly I lose. Yeah, you know, I as long as I cross the finish line knowing I did my absolute best, then I'm then I'm good with that. And it's the same in in my business. You know, we're not the biggest celebrancy training company in the world because I wanted to be the biggest celebrancy training company in the world. We're I wanted to be the best, I wanted the course to be as good as it could be in the experience for the students and the aftercare and the support, and and that's led on. Um, and part of that has led to you know where I live, the the retreat center where we do our training. But then it you know, we use it for other retreats as well. Um, and that's part of the joy of sort of bringing people to this safe place, you know. I don't care who you are, you you come here, you're gonna be fed, you're gonna be looked after. But I also knew that I couldn't do that because I can't cook. Um, I mean I can, but not not for 20 people. Um so I have you know, I have my chef and I entrust him to to look after the catering and the housekeeping team to make sure everybody's looked after it. And that's the key thing for for entrepreneurs, whether you're dyslexic, autistic, ADHD, or you know, whatever combination is, is if you want to scale, you've got to trust other people to do their thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Do you feel being neurodivergent, do you feel a bigger pressure to maybe prove yourself to yourself and to other people?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I think having grown up believing I was useless, that kind of turned into um a degree of drive. And I think we've all got our story, and I and I never want to play trauma Olympics. Your trauma, my trauma, somebody else's trauma is their trauma, is their story, the thing that they struggle with. And I know many people whose stories I would you know, I'd rock I'd I'd vote for my story, not their story any day. Um, but I broke my neck when I was 16. Um, it took me months to to regain them and mobility properly, and and um, you know, in that period I I had a choice. I could give up or I could fight. And actually, in the in the accident, if I'd given up, I would have died. Um and so I don't know whether the determination to push came before that or grew through that, but that's certainly one of the defining moments in my life. You know, there was this thing that I had a choice: do I take the next breath or not? And it it was it was kind of pivotal in the right. I'm gonna take the next breath, I'm gonna do it the best I can. If if I'm paralyzed from the neck down, and that's all though life will be, that's what life will be. But no, let's see if we can get everything moving. And and you know, I'm very grateful that I did manage to, you know, I was fortunate, you know, however you want to put it, um, but the injury wasn't so severe that that I had um too long-lasting impact from that. But it really taught me the the power of your own mind, of your ability to to push through the pain of of rehab and physiotherapy to get everything working again.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I I imagine when you're you have a broken neck, I mean, you're gonna have people who are gonna believe that you're gonna get better, people who believe they go right to the worst-case scenario.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Well, my mom, you she was an uh uh uh radiographer specializing in spinal injuries, and they put the x-rays up and she came over to my bed and said, you know, I said, How bad is it? And she said, if you survive tonight, it will be a miracle. Yeah, that was my mother's assessment of the situation. So, yeah, okay, mom, don't you know, don't sugar the pill at all. You know, um you know hold back. Um you know, so there were people who who figured I wasn't gonna make the nine.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

So yeah, still like a second chance at life.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, too stubborn to die.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Too stubborn. How do you feel all that this like your your neurodiversity, the the challenge that you've been through? How do you feel that helps you handle problems? Like how do you see it?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

How do you handle it? I think there's a there's a common perception that people with ADHD are good in a crisis. You know, I'm useless at planning something. Um, you know, when we finish this interview, I've got a pack and I'm going to a conference in a city a couple of hours' drive away.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

I my brain's in meltdown. I don't know how how much to pack. You know, what do I need one pair of trousers, two pairs of jeans? You know, just total. But you know, in that crisis, in a crisis moment, your ADHD friend is the one who will take action and you know do their best to get everybody through it. And and running a business, you know, there's there's constantly firefighting. Um, and at the same time, the autistic part of my brain is trying to plan and bring order and is you know, terrified by the chaos that is my desk. Um, and it's sort of these two, almost a schizophrenic battle going on inside your head. I think you know, we all have the things that we're good at, the things that we value, the things that are important to us. And it's it's allowing yourself to focus on the things that you're good at. And I go back to, you know, and the things that you're bad at, let somebody else do. Yeah, you know, I I'm horrifically bad at organizing the training program because it's a sit down and plan a training program thing. I have a training manager for that, she's brilliant at it, and so the the biggest thing is, you know, and I don't know if I've said this already, is recognizing your limits, but focusing on your superpower. Do the things that you're really good at and and and the things you enjoy. I mean, it was part of the advantage of running your own business rather than working for somebody else, is you get to decide which bits of the job you focus on. Um, and that's you know, I'm unemployable in any normal sense. Um I I you know, it's just I I get irritated with managers who don't know what they're talking about. I you know, I refuse to play politics. It's just yeah, either you want what I've got or you don't. I'm not gonna love it. So it's there's this this sense of you know, as a neurodiverse person, work out what you're good at and double down on that.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

How is networking for you? Because as a neurodiverse person, I mean it's horrific.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Let's not sorry, I'm gonna have a no, that's okay. Um, yeah, I'm really bad at networking. I find it very overwhelming. Two seconds after I've spoken to you, I'll forget who you are and why we were speaking and why we decided we would connect up next week, or whatever it's like. So one of the things that I have to find is ways of building, you know, grabbing notes from people. You know, if somebody hands me a business card, I'm there with my pen, you know, who was this person? Where did I meet them? Why, you know, what's the connection? Um and actually, you know, something I'm trying at a conference in a couple of weeks' time uh is I've got a couple of members of my team with me, and their job is to capture all of that networking data and make sure I follow up on it in the days following. Um, it's just trying new things. Um but yeah, network is a nightmare for me.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I I don't think a lot, I mean, I feel like networking, even if you're not neurodiverse, is one of those things either you like it or you hate it. Don't. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine how difficult that is.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

And if I'm, you know, that that particular conference in a couple of weeks' time, it's lots of fun. It's a really diverse community, entrepreneurs from all sorts of different industries and businesses, almost all of them neurodiverse in one way or another. I find it completely overwhelming. I'll spend two days with a solid titanium earplugs in just to bring the noise level down to something that I can cope with a lot of the time. And you know, be prepared to say, you know what, I've had enough. I need to just go and find a quiet space, let my system regulate, let myself calm down. Um I've traveled for work my whole life. I do it going through an airport. You know, I'm I don't, I'm not afraid of flying. I fly my own airplane. Flying's not a problem. Walking through an airport with all the, you know, where am I supposed to be? What's going on? What lights, noise, everything else. You know what? I just need to go and hide behind a pillar and have the courage to say, I need a moment, just 30 seconds to let everything calm down. Um, you know, I was traveling through Heathrow uh recently, and I'd got my earplugs in just to bring the base level of noise down. And then going through security, okay, I have to take them out. That's fine. It's two minutes. Right. I'll I'll get through. Um, and you know, paying extra for fast track takes a whole load of stress off. Yes, it's more expensive, but it's it's doing the things that support you. Yeah, in order, and that allows me to be more productive later. So it's yes, it's a cost, but it actually means I'm productive when I get to the other end.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

What are some other ways you kind of adapt your environment for that sensory overload?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Um noise cancelling earbuds, they're they're really handy. Um I do uh we were talking a couple of friends and I were talking about this the other day. They were talking about catching the train to meetings because then they could work on the train. Um and I find public transport overwhelming, so I prefer to drive, even though that means I'm not being productive during the journey necessarily. Um I'll but I'll still be listening to podcasts, I'll be having phone calls, obviously, not video calls while you're driving, because that would be a bad thing. Yeah, and hands-free. So it's you know, it's and there's another reason why I fly my own aeroplane. You know, I can I can get to meetings all over the country on my terms, you know, without having to interact with lots of people, because I actually I'm an introvert, I like the privacy, the being in my own space, the the not being surrounded by noise and people. But it does mean that you know there are times when I have to look at my diary and go, I just can't fit another meeting in. And there might only be one meeting in the day. Uh, and I think you know that's that's the encouragement, you know, give 100% every day. But sometimes 100% of what you've got to give is only 10% of what you had yesterday. So you have to recognise that you can't push to the same level all the time. You can't run 18-hour days endlessly because you will just simply burn yourself out and then you're not productive at all. So, actually, if you scaled back a little, made sure you'd eaten properly, got sleep, gone for an hour's walk with the dog every day, you're allowing your system to regulate so that you're actually more productive in the time that you're productive. And and everybody in writing the second book, especially recently, you know, people were saying, You're aiming to get this published by Easter, which you know, as we're doing this, is only a couple of months away. And I'm going, Yeah. And then I'd suddenly sit down and find that I'd written 10,000 words in two days. Wow. Because my brain had gone, I know where this is going. Yeah. No external distractions, just out it comes. You know, and it's been decades in the research, you know, that this this book hasn't come out of nowhere. It's been a uh you know, kind of my life's work in in embroiled in this thing. Um so it is really interesting to say to yourself, especially somebody who's driven like I am, you know what? If you get one hour of productive work done today, that's all you have to give. So don't try and make it too because you won't. You'll and you'll damage tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Now you mentioned your books. What is your what is your new book about?

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Um, so the new book is called Hello, I Love You Goodbye, um, which is the summary of the rites of passage. If you think of of all of the rites of passage, whether in a religious context or not, you know, we welcome a new baby into the community with a naming ceremony, hello. Um, we welcome a young person in going through adolescence into adulthood in a in a coming of age ceremony, which is actually something a lot of Western communities have lost. Um, you know, I love you in an engagement uh and then a marriage, then um all of those sort of rinse and repeat, and then at the end of somebody's life, you know, when we say goodbye in a in a ceremony and we're saying we love you, you know, goodbye. Um, but also you know, they exist in all the other places as well. So you know, bringing a new employee on board, you know, we try and make a ceremony of it. We we make something special to say, you are welcome, we you know, we appreciate what you're bringing. Um, when somebody leaves, you know, if you if you're in a corporate environment and somebody resigns, and all of a sudden you're they're escorted to the door by um by security and their desk is cleared and and it's you know all of your other employees just watched that. They all saw that person go from valued member of the team to outcast, and they fear the same. Now, obviously, if somebody's you know griff professional misconduct or you're yeah, out. Um but if it was a if it if it's not that kind of circumstance, then why not make something special of it? It doesn't have to be huge, just a ritual thank you. We appreciate the work you did on this project, we we appreciate you being part of our team, and their manager escorting them to the door. The escort is still happening, the scu you know the security sense of what's going on is still maintained. But people feel valued. Um so you can look at the rites of passage in a in a religious sense, in a they didn't come from a religious sense. What we see as you know, a christening in the in the sort of traditional Christian church environment of a of a baby in the Church of England or the Presbyterian environment or the Catholic environment, that's not what was done 20,000 years ago because Christianity is only 2,000 years old. Um it's something that that church has told us how to do it, but actually the thing, the welcoming a baby into the into the community is far, far older. And therefore, I think I think it's part of who we are as human beings, um, and something that it shouldn't be about the priest, it should be about the person.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Um, and that's not to decry religion, I'm sort of trying to abstract it from religion. So the book goes through um the anthropological value of these ceremonies, the nature, how we might apply that in our own environments, um, looks at examples around the world, um so you know, how different cultures do it. Um, yeah, it's kind of a popular science book about rites of passage.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

That's good. That sounds like a really amazing book. Because it's it's there's not one I can think of that's been written without like a religious standpoint.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah, and you know, I've I grew my dad was a Church of England priest. You know, I grew up in a in a Christian family. I don't have faith myself now, but I understand you know faith environment, and nothing in the book is decrying any of that. In fact, it's celebrating the fact that actually the the planet has all these different traditions. Let's decide what's important to us in our environment. That might be different for you as it is for me, but that doesn't matter. And even you know, in a if you're looking at environment, I had a friend who transitioned, and we had a naming ceremony for an adult saying, you know, this is my new name, and and you know, the community was able to say, you know, we love you, you know, welcome. I love that. Uh it was it was really affirming, just not just for that individual, but for the whole community. And um, you know, very powerful moments that we've really lost in in Western communities.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Because these I I like how you highlighted like when somebody leaves a company, if they're fired, like you still unless it's like uh an awful reason, but like you know, say like their job position was eliminated or something. You still say, like, you know, thank you, we appreciate you, you know, say your goodbyes, and then you you move on. Like you it I think it helps close that door a little more peacefully for that person. And like you said, the other employees, which I don't often think about watching.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

How you treat people is how people will respond. You know, if you treat them poorly, they'll they won't be loyal.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

No, and I think um that's that sounds like oh I I did read a little bit of um or I do a lot of audible book, but I listened to a little bit of your book, uh choose now. Um, the expert guide to elite entrepreneur entrepreneurial living. What was what inspired that book?

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Was that inspired by um that was that was the that was looking at at life and saying, how can you build a life that is really serving you? What are the so that the the in a in a sense the structure of the book's a bit trite. Um you know there are three pillars mind, body, and soul. Um whether you're religious or not, you know, there's that that human essence, um, which is separate, I think, from the way the the brain functions, or maybe it's a function of the way the brain functions. And then I look at at nine different areas of life, things like you know, your physicality, you know, how what how is your body? What limitations have you got? Could you overcome those in some way? You know, who are the people you hang around with? You know, if if you look at the five people you spend the most time with and what their habits are, you will have those habits. You know, if if the five people you spend the most time with smoke, it almost certainly you smoke. Actually, smoking takes 10 years off your lifespan and 10 years off your healthy lifespan. So it's 20 years of healthy life you lose for being a smoker. Um, so you're making choices, deliberate choices about where you live, the the people you hang out with, the the psychology, all of these things. And so it breaks the whole of life down. It's not going to tell you what to eat, it's not going to tell you how to exercise, but the book says at least think about how you want to be in life and and you know make those deliberate choices. And it's very much about deconstruct life, choose how you want to be. And those are some of the retreats that we run here. You know, um, one of my favorites is the Empty Nester retreat, where um we bring eight couples, um bring them here, and you know, they've they've suddenly gone from 20 years or more of being parents to now it's just the two of them back in the house again. Um an awful lot of marriages falter at that point. It's like, okay, come, let's deconstruct life and then reconstruct. How do you two want the next phase of your life to be together? Where are you gonna live? Who are you gonna hang out with? What hobbies are you gonna take up? What's the career path now? Um and it gives them a sort of a focus to be able to go home and say, okay, we we've agreed that our new life post-children looks like this, or post full-time parenting looks like this. Um, and we we do a similar one for newly pregnant people because um you you think you know what's about to happen. Um but you know, at least discuss with your partner you know what what kind of parents do you want to be? You know, what are your hopes for for your child, what's reasonable, what's um because so often I've seen couples think they know what they're looking for and then completely disagree on some aspect of fundamental parenting. Um, so it's trying to give people using the choose now structure of whatever the transition you're in, yeah, let's help you construct the next phase of life.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

I love that, and it feels like the way you were talking about it, whether you're an empty nester or just welcoming a life into this world, it feels like a rite of passage. Yeah, like it is a rite of passage.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, and so it's yeah, it's it it's weird because for for probably the last couple of years I've been thinking, I don't feel like I know where I'm going, and then suddenly it's like I've got these two books in my head, and it all came together because it it does all come together. It's it is the hellos, I love you's goodbyes. You know, another retreat is for you know couples who are looking at building life together, whether through the formal process of marriage or or just you know being together, it's okay, let's sit you down and deconstruct life. And I'm not gonna tell you what to do, but I'm gonna help you work out what you want to do as a couple. And and it may be that you decide that that's not gonna work for you two, and that would be a shame, but at least you decided it now instead of 20 years down the road when there's been 18 years of resentment and no, but it's it's important because even if it's a difficult conversation, at least you're having it.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Yeah. You know, and you decide now versus when you have kids and there's houses, and you decide now before it gets too down the road.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Yeah, and and I yeah, I it sounds like I'm very deterministic, and so this is the autistic side of my brain. It's like there there should be a way of organizing this.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

But the ADHD side of my brain is going, well, yeah, but there's also space for spontaneity, there's also space for the couple that met three months ago and moved in a month ago and you know are gonna spend the rest of their lives together without a lot of planning.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Because it just works.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Are you someone who like you carry like notebooks around, or like you you have like you know, voice notes in your phone a lot, you'll get like an idea.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Are you is that like it's all just in my because the thing is if I write notebooks down, I leave the notebook somewhere and completely forget what's in it. Or you know, I have so many voice notes on my phone where I I said something genius and then I'll never find it again because there's no way of arc, you know, I need to search on that, but I don't know what I'm searching for. You know, yesterday I said something genius. Um yeah, so it's very much I just have to to sit down and try and capture these things into um I use a system called Obsidian, um, which is a software tool which works on the phone and and on the uh computer, and and you can just sort of write notes and then create links between the notes, and um it's pretty cool. But again, a lot of the time I'll forget to to open it up and use it and then just I know I see with my son of that some of the thoughts and stories he comes up with are brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

You know, but meanwhile he'll forget to like put his shoes on or something when he's leaving the door, you know what I mean? And it's like and i it's always it's so fascinating to me watching him how his brain works because he's always going, going, going, going. And he's this way and that way. And so like like talking to you, I can it's not really surprising to me that you're so successful because I see, and granted everybody who's neurodivergent is different, I can see how you could be successful because you're creative and you got like you said, like these two different autistic PCU and the ADHD PCU and dyslexia in there for fun, you know, and you know, and then so you put that all together and like harnessing all that together had to be tricky.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, and there's been a lot of failure. There's three failed marriages, there's been addiction, there's been business failure on on some fairly monumental scale. Yeah, where I am now isn't necessarily the end of the journey either. Yeah, it's um so we have to honor the fact that behind everybody who's in quotes successful, a the definition of successful is different for everybody, and b there will be failure, there will be things you try that just don't work. Um and times when you you let people down, and times when you do something or say something, and you sit there and just think, what on earth did I do that for? And you then have to go and apologize or you know, take the consequences, whatever it is. Um it's you know, between behind every overnight success, there was an awful lot of hard work to get to the point where it became overnight. Yeah. Um there are people who have been immensely lucky and just you know became the next big thing out of nowhere, but very, very few and far between. Um, you know, there is no uh magic formula for creating the next Facebook. Facebook was successful because it was in the right place at the right time, and then they worked out how to do it. You know, Google was a PhD thesis that without some of the people that came alongside them later would have just been an interesting PhD thesis. Um so it's it is you know, we have to honour the struggle, and we have to honor those who who struggle their whole lives and and don't make loads of money or you know don't create a meaningful and stable relationship because they're plowing their own path, and and for them it is whatever it is. Um and I think that's something that we get uh we get hung up on particular definitions of success and academic success and all the rest of it. And actually, that's not what it's about. It's about is this human being living life, the best life they can live. Um, you know, I had two guys that I took funerals for, and it was what it was a pivotal moment. One had been a captain of industry, he'd run one of the world's largest businesses in his field. There were 200 plus people at his funeral, 14 people gave testimonials about him, including the managing that the CEO of his uh his largest competitor, who said, you know, it could be nine o'clock at night and I'm struggling with the problem. I could pick up the phone and he would answer and he would talk to me like a friend, not a bitter business rival. Um, yeah, he was a he was a guy who'd had huge impact on the world, um not just in his industry, but in a much larger larger scale. And it was an immense privilege to take his life to take his funeral and to write it and put it together with his widow. And um and then I I got in the car and I drove for an hour to another city and took the funeral for a guy who died and not been found for three months because nobody had missed him for three months, because you know, it he lived such a different life. You know, there were only his children and their partners, and his children basically said he was he was a grumpy old man who lived on his own. That was all they had to say about him. Yeah, and it really struck me that you know had this other guy failed at life? No, he'd just lived the life that he wanted to live. You know, he'd retired and sat in front of the TV for ten years before dying of a heart attack sitting in his chair, and because nobody saw him or spoke to him, nobody realized for three months. Um, it was a really hard day. You know, I got I got home that night struggling. Um and it was one of those moments where you know, what is my life? What am I doing with my life? How um and it's one of the reasons why you know High Train House exists as a place of of of safety it doesn't matter who you are what you're check what you're facing you know come and be safe here for a while and recover and and be in the peace and quiet and the place where there's no cell phone signal and you know we have good wi-fi but um you know disconnect and and be fed and and do the journey that you need to do um sorry that was a long answer to a short question no i no i think it's I think it's important because you highlighted how everyone's version of success is different you know sometimes it could just be someone who's recovering from addiction owning their own home having a stable job putting food on the table that's success for them that's and for for somebody else it could be running a multi-million dollar business you know for somebody else it could be you know who knows and I think it's important that we recognize we don't really know what someone else is going through on the inside right I was it was interesting about an hour before you and I started this conversation um my girlfriend and I sorry you can probably hear there's quite a lot of noise going on out there um were discussing exactly that that point you know that we've both struggled with addiction in the past um and and you never stop struggling you know it is a thing you carry with you for the rest of your life you have to be aware of it yeah but the one of the things that we really appreciate about each other is that we've both walked that journey so when one of us is you know having a day when that pull is there we can just say to the other having a having a day and there's no criticism there's no judgment it's just right okay what do I need to do to hold you safe in this moment um and the other you know we we've talked about perhaps the other the other successful way of doing that is to have a partner who's been through your addiction so so you know has even if they haven't struggled themselves at least they've seen how you've worked through it and that they've chosen to still be with you um but trying to be in a relationship with somebody who has struggled with addiction but with some and somebody who has no experience either as a partner or as a uh an addict themselves is that's really hard. But if you've both been there and you're both determined never to go back then you can support each other and build one another up and you know catch oh I know this moment's gonna be difficult um how can I help?

SPEAKER_00 46:50

How can I you know make sure that we don't push buttons that are going to hurt because your your partner probably knows and probably see like the warning signs maybe when you're getting burned out or dysregulated like you can probably see things that other people looking at you would not see. You're probably like okay maybe we should do something different or go this way or alter that.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah and it's the classic you you need some dopamine how are we going to get you some dopamine that's healthy not right yeah healthy being the key word yeah and yeah and for for everybody um and again for me that's flying you know flying is one of the most regulating experiences for me to to go through the pre-flight checks to plan the flight to prepare the aircraft to have the conversation with air traffic control to to do all the you know it in one hand all of my autistic brain is in heaven because it's checklists it's procedure it's liturgical conversation with air traffic control is it there isn't a quite there isn't ambiguity can I do this yes or no you know it's I'm gonna do this okay um and then the ADHD part of my brain is up in the sky playing with clouds throwing a 200 mile an hour airplane around um you know and you know then something happens and you have a crisis to cope with and you know yeah you hope that it's not going to be a life limiting crisis um but you know I'm flying a 65 year old airplane that things break. So you know you it's it it feeds all of my need and I get to the ground I may be exhausted but I'm elated I'm fed I'm nurtured I'm yeah and and um yeah it's funny peaceful the way you describe it. Yeah peaceful 470 cubic inch monster engine screaming across the sky eating it's yeah it's it's not carbon friendly um rather yeah um but in a sense it is peaceful it inside my brain right and it it's it's the sky and me um and it isn't a battle it's a negotiation it's a discussion it's a um when it's even when it's difficult you know the laws of physics are the laws of physics I cannot break the laws of physics so what's happening in flying through a storm which you should have avoided anyway or taking off on a day when you shouldn't have taken off because the weather was bad you know okay it's now negotiation between the laws of physics and me and the answer is they the laws of physics are always winning but I do get to to discuss with them how we're going to negotiate how we're gonna get through this next little bit um and um yeah I think I think for all of us who are neurodivergent that that burnout thing is a huge risk and you need to find the way that you can feed and and recover and recuperate and we all do that in different ways and the challenge is to do it in a way that's healthy and that's you know that that's a failure I've done in a number of different ways I found a lot of really good ways to fail. And I think that the challenge with addiction has been to okay this behavior whatever it is anything can become an addiction this is unhealthy for me I need to to stop it I need to modify it I need to find a different way of doing this and it's recognizing when that's beginning and and getting whatever help you know I do therapy every week I'm not ashamed to say that it's it helps me to maintain my mental health it helps me to not slip down a depressive route which I'm prone to which many autistic people are right um you know I've been I've been to the brink of suicide. I'm not ashamed to say that because so many of us are you know so many of us have been struggling with depression and yet we didn't get the help we needed to if if this encourages one person to get help because it gets you through tomorrow um then then it'll be worth it. Do you think it it was harder um being uh a a male struggling with um you know addiction and neurodivergency do you think there it was harder do you think that contributed to depression um I mean I don't know I think you know there's a lot of evidence that that female autistic traits are expressed differently um whether that's something to do with the brain the brain is wired or to do with the way society moulds women rather than men and obviously we're speaking in a very binary sense you know people in the middle it's going to be much more complex as well I think you well we know certainly in the UK and I believe it's similar in the US the statistics the highest single group of uh suicide risk is men between 45 and 55 um you know it it and the number of men taking their own lives is roughly two to one compared to women so it's you know it's twice as many men as women taking their own lives. So there is something in the way we are bringing men up and expecting men to behave that is doing a phenomenal amount of damage. If the suicide is roughly 1% of deaths are suicide um then there are all those people who didn't actually get to the point where they took their own life who are struggling for whatever reason. So it would tend to show that an awful lot of men do struggle with depression and don't get the help largely because there's that stigma here I needed help. I really needed help. If I didn't have the help I would not be here today. And there are days where I have to look at Becky and say I just need you to hold me right now because otherwise I what happens next is not good. Fortunately they're very few and far between because I've got the help and built the systems and and built a life that supports me rather than a life that destroys me. And and that's key is it's creating life. And I think the other thing that we do for young men especially in the West is we've forgotten that transition from adolescence to manhood and that sounds like a kind of sexist thing to say and I I truly do not mean it in a misogynistic way at all. Yeah there's an obvious moment when a young woman becomes a woman there's there's men arch the beginning of of her periods and and for men there isn't an obvious moment at which you became a man um and we aren't taught what manhood means and it it means a whole raft of things um so you get these young men in the in the schoolyard defining what manhood is finding people like Andrew Tate and and other sort of toxic masculinity who are saying you've got nothing positive to give these people and and we end up with school shootings and violence towards women because we're not teaching young men what being a man is about um and and that's that breaks my heart no you highlighted a good you highlighted a very good point which I don't often think about a young woman going into womanhood it's celebrated it's very well known for a man there's no real marker there's no real it's just what you know your voice broke yes yeah yeah like a real like big moment and I think I think that's I think that's something that we as a society probably need to definitely need to look at more how men feel when I think yeah in a sense you know if you look at um other religions around the world there's often a a coming of age transition you know the Aboriginal walkabout um and I'm not saying here here are ideals because there are things about walkabout that are essentially child abuse we shouldn't be doing those things but there are you know in the West especially we've lost these rites of passage we lost this moment where as a community we come together and we say to somebody this is the next part of your journey this is what we expect we're gonna help you we're gonna be here we're community around you you know if you're struggling these are the people um you know I I have uh a friend who has three gorgeous young women uh daughters and I'm their feral uncle you know they will ask me about stuff that you know actually as a family they're very open so they have great conversations as a family but you know sometimes if I'm there I'll just get the what about this Uncle Shu and I say I think this you know and then mom's looking at me going no no no no no um but you know there's that that freedom of having an an elder who isn't your parents that you can go to and say I this is how I feel um that I think was certainly missing from my life um that I tried to create for my sons um you know that that I wish we we did more it's in some ways really modern religion in in whatever faith is much more about and I said this earlier the priest and the the structure of the faith than it is about the people who are in the congregation and actually we need to turn that on its head um yeah if if I may dip into my Christian background Christ was not about the hierarchy he was about the people um you know the woman caught in adultery he that whole story you know there's a whole question about what happened to the man let's not go there completely missing from the Bible the most important part of that story is Jesus knelt and um he loved her you know his he wasn't about the rules the the the stoning all the the all the rest of it he loved her and at the core of every faith is love and at the core of all of the rites of passage within faith and without faith is love it's it is the core of humanity is love um and I think that's that's kind of the message of of both books in a way and what I'm trying to build in terms of the rest of my life no it's it's it's really beautiful the way you you have a definite way with words um thank you well you've touched on a lot of a lot of important you know things in our society and in our world that we need to think about and I think I know having individuals who have brains that work the way you work you know you're always thinking and I feel like I don't I don't this isn't me trying to put like my experience on you but I feel maybe having the struggles that you had like neurodivergence and the addiction and the anyone you broke your neck that may have helped you be so compassionate thoughtful you know like I feel like that may have yeah I I it's difficult to put my finger on one thing and say that made me who I am because the whole story you know and then there's so much we haven't touched upon but you know I could have become a very bitter twisted internalized person. I didn't I can't claim credit for that all I can claim credit for is the action that I do next um yeah and and take responsibility for the things that have gone wrong choose to to understand why choose to to do the self-reflection I think that's something that's hugely missing is people actually honestly self-reflecting on decisions they've taken or mistakes they've made or why did they snap at that person. There was a thing on uh Facebook the other day and and one of my friends had posted something and and part of it you know I was in a bad moment I was tired like I it was a snippy little comment that I put and um a couple of days later we were at a meeting and and I saw her and I I went over and I um she was sitting so I I lowered myself to her level because I'm I'm a big guy I'm 6'3 um and she's a very small person and I looked her in the I said I'm really sorry that that I made that snippy response to your to your thing and she gave me a big hug and she said I didn't see it that way at all you opened my eyes to something that we hadn't considered and you know we both realized in that moment that actually we could have we could have both taken that never spoken to each other again instead it being by taking ownership of her first comment and then my response to it we were able to actually we've both grown we both oh I can see where you were coming from I see where you were coming from and the friendship is stronger because there's that you know I I can trust who I am with you. Right and and that is hugely missing in today's society this this ability to to look at somebody and say I I see who you are I may not like all of it I may not agree with all of it but who you are is safe with me and that um if we had a bit more of that I think the the world would be a nicer place.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Well you highlighted a word that I think you know is important that's safe yeah you know people feeling safe whatever your identity or how whatever you are you should feel safe wherever you are you know there shouldn't be a fear there to talk or to to to be who you are because I think the the results of not being able to be who you are can be catastrophic.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

Yeah absolutely and I and I think we're seeing that playing out in in you know the UK the US and other places is intolerance and hatred and fear you know the whole Black Lives Matter movement um the the response to that when certain communities which were generally white and male going oh you know you you're you're threatening us no we all matter you know and and um you know should I walk into a meeting with a t-shirt that says cis white men matter probably not but I would I might not recommend that no but we all matter right and what we haven't done effectively is said to some of those vocal groups you matter too and so they felt marginalized and the and and again moved towards a politics and a way of being in the world which actually denigrates the other and surely the strength everything demonstrates that we are stronger when we are a community of everybody. Yeah because we all learn things from each other we all learn you know if if you've seen somebody who's never had a conversation with somebody outside their community their their way of looking at the world is so narrow so monocultural so simple and simplistic but actually the world isn't simple and simplistic the world is a very complicated place. And we all make mistakes we all say the wrong thing in the wrong moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

Well okay I do it a lot more than other people but um but it's how we learn from that how we make the other person feel safe if everybody felt safe there'd be no war there'd be you know we wouldn't be seeing school shootings we wouldn't be seeing you know lots of these things we because those things come out of a feeling of insecurity yeah yeah you're trying to you're struggling to find your place in the world and be seen and be heard yeah and feel safe and it's taken to the extreme and then people start getting hurt and nobody's listening and you start getting these worried yelling yeah yeah and the truth no longer matters and actually the truth is hugely important. And meanwhile people still keep getting hurt or ostracized or you know and then you end up kind of where we are right now. Yeah you know with nobody listening and I think it's and I think it's important to have the conversations like like we're having you know like touch on these important topics. It's been pretty diverse hasn't it yeah but it's I I I hope you've enjoyed it I've enjoyed talking to you and getting to know you. And I know I want to be res I want to be respectful of of your time. Um what what's one what's something you want to leave us with like some some phrase or some quote that maybe you apply to your daily Like that helps you get through the days.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

That's a tough one. Um something that a friend of mine says in her business um we all do well when we all do well. Um and it it really resonates with me. Um I think the thing that I struggle with for myself is forgiveness. Um especially as a neurodiverse person who you you will say things that other people aren't expecting you to say, you will see the world in a way that other people aren't expecting you to see, and then you'll become aware of it, and then you'll beat yourself up for months over it. Yeah, Ashley. You know, sometimes it's okay to say, I'm sorry, I fucked up. Yeah. And and say that to yourself as well. Because you know, the person that's let me down most in my life is me. Um that self-forgiveness thing is something I have to work on every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Those, yeah, the two, those are two very hard words to say to yourself and to others, you know. I'm sorry. Yeah. You know, those are but they're very important because if you forgive yourself, let yourself off of them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

And the more you say it, the easier it gets. Not because it's become trite, but because it you realize, oh, life is better because I was sorry. Okay, I want life to be better. Um and people who've hurt you, you know, if you they see you demonstrating that behavior, oh okay, yeah, I I screwed up there as well. I'm gonna I'm gonna apologize. I'm gonna try and mend relationships. I hate broken relationships, it just doesn't benefit anybody. Um so yeah, I think it's yeah, it's it's lifting everybody up, yeah, helping anybody, being willing to be generous with whatever that you have. Yeah, some of the most generous people I know have nothing, but they'll give you everything they've got. And um, it can be so precious just to have a conversation with somebody and and let that person be seen and heard and valued. Um and that's kind of kind of the ethos up here in the Yorkshire Dales National Park. It doesn't matter who you are with you know, you're you're seen, you're precious, you're valued. Um, and and the thing about safety, you know, it's the definition of this place. I had a retreat up here for a group of um women who work with survivors of domestic abuse, and you know, two of them were actually still in abusive relationships themselves, so they were trying to help other women out of these relationships and yet going home to hell on earth. And um one of them, I think I'll leave you with this thought. One of them came up to me and she said, I've just realized there's no cell signal up here. I said, Yeah, are you okay with that? And she said, It means the tracker that he put on my car can't tell him where I am. I am truly safe. And um, that evening she danced on the table, singing Dancing Queen, wearing a bright pink furry onesie and a wooden spoon as a microphone. And it was the first time in years that she had actually let her hair down because the person who she loved, but who was literally the most dangerous thing in her universe did not know where she was, and so she did feel safe here, and and that is so precious to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

It is precious, and it's a beautiful thing that you do. And thank you. For as for if it's it's it's so beautiful to see how it's all come together for you just by knowing what little I know of your story and seeing this beautiful cycle that you're creating, you know, success you have, and then you create these ripples with other people, and you it's it's it seems like a really beautiful, full life that you lead. Um, and I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I do appreciate your time. Thank you. Appreciate the invitation. Where can people find you? Where can people find out about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:56

Um, so uh choose now.life is the uh the first book website. Um, and also uh Stuartlmorris.com is kind of my more my work. Um, but everything links from from either of them. So it doesn't matter where you go, you'll find everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

Well, thank you so much, Stuart. It was a pleasure talking to you. I learned a lot. I enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you have a good rest of your day. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

You too.