G. Scott Graham - Come as You Are - A conversation about Grief

Today marks the 20th anniversary of the passing of my brother David and I dedicate this episode to him for the lasting impact he had on my life and so many lives. I love You. I miss You and I can think of no better way to honor you by shining a light on and exploring  grief through the books and personal journey of G. Scott Graham.

G. Scott Graham is an author  (of 30 books and counting), a career coach , a business coach , and a psychedelic support coach  located in Boston, Massachusetts.

When he is not coaching people to be their very best, Scott manages a non-profit farm animal rescue. Scott participates in Tough Mudders, teaches Sun 73 Tai Chi, stand-up paddleboards with his dogs Groot and Rocket, and goes camping at State Parks throughout New England as much as possible. His daily spiritual practice focuses on anāpānasati,(ah-nah-pah-nah-SAH-tee) vipassanā (vee-PAH-suh-nuh), and mettā-bhāvanā meditation (MET-tah BHAH-vah-nah) meditation . Scott believes service is vital to a life well-lived: he volunteers as an EMT Instructor, as a Firefighter, and as a Master Gardener in his community.

In his “free time,” he writes books.

https://gscottgraham.com

Carrying on the Vision: Willoughby Rescue - Willoughby rescue was started by Scott and his late husband, Brian. Willoughby Rescue which is a 501c3 that provides care, comfort, and compassion to abandoned, neglected, abused, and orphaned farm animals. Our volunteers work to steward, preserve and support these farm animals by providing a humane living environment and adopting these animals into homes where they can prosper and grow old. To learn more about Wiloughby Rescue, to donate, visit or volunteer please visit them at.

https://www.willoughbyrescue.org

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Good morning, afternoon, and evening to everyone who is listening. And welcome to Call Her Cat. And before I introduce our very special guest for today's interview, I would like to take a moment and acknowledge the day. Today is February 23rd, 2026. And it marks the twentieth anniversary of my pass the passing of my brother David. And I'd like to dedicate this episode to him. The lasting impact he had on my life and so many lives. I love you, and I miss you. And I can't think of a better way to honor you than by shining a light on and explore grief through the books and personal journey of G. Scott Graham. G. Scott Graham is an author of 30 books in counting, a career coach, a business coach, and a psychedelic support coach located in Boston, Massachusetts. When he is not coaching people to be their very best, Scott manages a non-profit farm animal rescue. He participates in Tough Mudders, teaches Sun 73 Tai Chi, stand up paddle boards with his dogs, group, and rocket, and goes camping at the state parks throughout New England as much as possible. His daily spiritual practice focuses on anapana sati, nipassana, and metavana meditation. Scott believes service is vital to a life well lived. He volunteers as an EMT instructor, a firefighter, and is a master gardener in his community. In his free time, which I don't know how much you have, he writes books. Is there anything that I missed or anything that you want to add?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

You missed that. That was great. Thank you, Kat.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

And I apologize if I did not say the meditations correctly.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

You said it perfectly. So many people say like vipassana, you know, but you did you did very well.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

I was practicing like I wrote out how to see.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Five books on grief.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Five books on grief. Okay. Where where did it all start for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

You know, uh it's it started with the death of my husband of 31 years, and um the very uncomfortable realization, you know, I've been I'm a I'm trained as a therapist. I'm trained as a substance abuse counselor, the very powerful realization that what I had been doing for I don't know, 35 years maybe, 33 years around grief and loss was totally off the rails. As in totally incorrect, completely incompetent. I was. Uh and and then I discovered that it was it wasn't just me, it's all of psychotherapy that's out there everywhere. How they treat grief and loss. And uh that prompted the first book, Come As You Are Meditation and Grief. I wrote it during COVID. Like we were locked down. We were locked down. And I nothing, right? What a horrible way to spend your initial time grieving without being able to really be with anyone. Uh, and then about three years later, I wrote my second book, cleverly entitled Come As You Are Three Years Later. And then a couple years after that, after falling in love, which was actually this year, because Brian died in 2019, and COVID was just the you know recently, I wrote Come As You Are Five Years Later. And in between all of that, the in between the third and the fourth year, I uh wrote a book about MDMA and grief and how that works. And then this summer I wrote a book that kind of encapsulates all of the books that I've written called The Tower of Grief. And that is kind of like a daily readings piece that I pulled from all of the books that I've written to just kind of help somebody in their grief. You don't have to read all of this book. You'll read through the the the daily readings and be like, oh my god, this really speaks to me.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yeah. I was when I first I was listening to you, when I first started the book. I mean, I'm naturally a crier, um, but when I was listening to like your story of how you because your husband passed away and uh car crash led to a fire, is that correct?

unknown 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

And you went right to the scene and you said it you had no choice.

unknown 5:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

And that was so powerful because I'm like most people would have been like, no, just could not do it. And you what was that moment like for you to?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Oh, I had had I had I had a uh person who is not a friend of mine anymore. You know, one of the things I remember somebody saying to me, and I now say it to folks who lose somebody, uh, when they say they've they've you know they've lost their spouse or their son or their daughter. I've asked them if if they've if they've lost any friendships yet. Because grief takes us to places that a lot of people don't want to go ever. And when we go there, they can't go there. We end up leaving friendships behind. And I had a number of friends who were actively giving me unsolicited advice to not follow through with what I was determined to follow through with. I remember one person said, you can't unring that bell once you've rang it.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

And, you know, they all live lives with their head in the sand, denying the reality of I feel sorry for them. And I'm not I'm not that way. And my relationship with Brian wasn't that way, and so the idea of not being there, you know, at his darkest time would just feel so fucked up and selfish and self-centered, and not I mean, not in alignment with who I am and not in alignment with who we were. Yeah. That was that was a that was a b important um uh choice. And I um it's it's a decision that's still is present in my mind. Like I'll wake up and I I mean it's seared into my vision. It's seared into my experience, that scene, uh, and seeing his b burnt body in the snow and touching him and saying goodbye. But I would absolutely do it again without a doubt. Without a doubt.

unknown 8:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, I I love that you just there was no hesitation with you. There was just there was your husband of 31 years and you were gonna be there. And I I love that and that gentle like touch on the shoulder that you did. You know. And I thought and I was like, that was so profound because it was so gentle. But it was so meaningful, and I thought it was I thought it was a very profound thing that you did. Brave to do that, you know, because a lot of people I think sometimes when we hear the word death, we don't want to see somebody in that way. Right. You know. And you like approach it like fully with present, you're like you're in that moment. Like you it was you have like it was just such a beautiful moment when you described it in that in that chapter. And you you talk about something else in your book that I meditation and grief. And uh the stages of grief. And how that actually does like a disservice to the process of grieving. Can you talk about that a little bit further?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yes. The the for those of you listening, if you don't know this history, there was uh a woman named Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, and she identified these stages. Grief. I'm gonna come say grief. She identified these stages in her book on death and dying. And those stages included bargaining and acceptance and anger and denial and depression, just like you would think. Like, I can't believe this is happening. I'm really sad, or I'm really might be really angry, and you get to the point where you're like, okay, I'm okay with it. And she wrote that book for people who were in hospice, who were at the who were diagnosed with a terminal illness. And that was the focus of the book. They were dealing with their own immortality and how they came to terms with that. And then those quote-unquote stages got hijacked by people that were doing grief and loss. It got high, it was, it was so pathetically hijacked, Kat. I remember as a substance abuse counselor with the Department of Corrections creating a small curriculum that was focused on people who were moving into recovery saying, Oh, you have to go through grief and loss around your addiction because you had a life that was there, and you have to go. So, of course you're angry, of course you're depressed. And when you go through these stages, you feel them fully, you'll come out on the other end. Kind of like, I don't know, popping a zit. And it's not, it is absolutely not true. It is absolutely not true. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, the woman who wrote the book, the woman who wrote the book later in her life, wrote an op-ed or something like that, where she voiced how disappointed she was that these concepts were hijacked, and that was not the purpose. And at the same time, so now this is flooded, flooded around the marketplace. You go to see a counselor and you say, I want to talk about grief, and they're gonna be like stages. Or I have to help you with, you know, some sort of rational mode of therapy that's gonna help you go through the pro go through this process because I need to cure you of your grief. You're you're you're you're you're coming to me as a therapist because of grief. And what you hear from me is that you're fucked up because you're grieving. That is really screwed up. Um I with the same group of friends, this this person who was who had said, you know, if you if you you know, if you ring that bell, you know, you're not gonna be able to unring it, who's not even dealing with stuff in their own life was very pushy about me going for therapy. You need to go therapy, you need to go therapy, you need to go therapy. And I was like, okay. And I and I found I interviewed like a whole bunch of therapists to find someone that could be in alignment with what I was. I can't tell you how many therapists were out there that was like, I just messaged them, what are we gonna do in therapy? And I got, well, we'll work through the stages of grief and we'll help you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we'll help you'll come out much happier. And I I finally, finally found someone, and and I thought this was gonna be helpful. And uh, and she was awful. She was awful. Um, and I started doing some journaling work. What happened was I was doing journaling work and I wanted to share it with her. It was like, as a from a therapeutic perspective or from a therapist's job perspective, it couldn't have been easier. All she had to do was read what I wrote and then talk about it with me. Uh, she wouldn't even do that. She wouldn't even do that. And it made it was the hardest, one of the hardest things I ever had to do as a quote unquote patient was uh get up in after a session started and say, This you're not doing your job. I'm leaving. I'm like, and you better not charge my insurance. Better not charge my insurance. Because I'm, you know. Uh and uh we don't do that. We we accept the reason I share this is because we accept what a therapist or counselor says as if it's magic. That this is this is the way. Yeah. And and that can make things worse. And so what I've realized is that you know the grief is not something to be fixed or a problem. It's a gift. Cat, the fact that you want to dedicate this episode to your brother talks about the power he had in your life and the love you have for him still today. Still today. I can see it in your face as we're talking about this. Why would somebody want to erase that? That's not a problem, what you're feeling right now about your brother. That's something to be joyful about, even though it's painful.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah. And you you talked on something in your book, and I didn't have the words for it up until I heard them from you. Um called the grief olympics for grief Olympic spectators. And I was like, and I kind of smiled and like, yeah. And you do what what is that? Can you explain that to people? What that is the grief when people take part in the grief olympics?

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, so so it's it's notable when you are talking about your grief, how people try to like hijack that discussion to tell you about you know, as if their grief is better than yours, right? So you say, I've I've I've I had this, uh you lost your brother, and you share that with someone, and they want to be like, Oh, yeah, well, you know, I lost my cat once. Um, I got a flat tire once. It was I'm still grieving that flat tire from my car. My goldfish died. I had a houseplant that died once. It was and and it it is people do it all the time. It is so disrespectful to the people that are grieving. And it's really because they don't know what else to say, they don't know what else to do, they can't be with it. And so they have these things that they, these defaults that they shift into. And the grief Olympics is one of them where these people are like, Well, my grief is better than yours, my grief is deeper than yours, I'm a better man. All of a sudden, it's crazy. Oh, yeah. I can't I can't tell you, Kat, how many people have written me and been like, people aren't doing that.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

That happened to me. It's awful, and I think what makes me so sad is like I remember when when my brother died, um, because I wasn't his his mother or his wife or his daughter, the grief didn't matter, and so I shoved it in. Right? And I I think when you when you say things like that, I think about people hearing that and I can feel like how I used to collapse. Oh okay. And then it's like, but that grief has nowhere to go if you don't feel like your grief is valid, it just sits there. That's a horrible, horrible way to feel because it's minimizing how you feel and like the bond that you and that person share. Right. And what I like also is your use of profanity in this book. Like I I found it so vitally necessary in this book. And my favorite chapter was I'm sorry. You know, and I was just like, I mean, it was it was it if you could talk a little bit about it, because it touches on like the worst things to say to people who are grieving.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yes, you know, it's funny. You you you're you were listening to the audiobook, correct?

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

So so when I um um wrote that book and and it came to that chapter, I I collectively referred to it as the fuck you chapter, right? And and I and because people, I just it was like raw with what was in my heart. And when I wrote this, like that's what I was feeling. All these people that give you platitudes, right? I'm sorry for your loss, right? Still today. I was on a podcast the other day, and I said to somebody, the person that I was on the podcast with, that I um, you know, she's asking about how I got started writing books or this and that. I'm like, my husband, my spouse died in 2019. She knew nothing about anything, and immediately she said, I'm sorry for your loss. Out it came. And I just rolled my eyes. I wanted to say fuck you to her on the podcast. I didn't because she doesn't allow profanity on her podcast. So uh I couldn't say that. And but I was definitely feeling it. It's uh it's this again, it's people that don't know what to say. And and and they they the I'm sorry piece is like flippant. It feels flippant. So that chapter cat, when I was trying to find someone to do that audiobook, that was the script. I was like, I need to find somebody who can say fuck you in lots of different ways. So it's not just I'm sorry for you, lost, fuck you, fuck you, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And that narrator nailed it like so good. He was so yeah, at one point he's like, fuck you, like it was really great. Uh it is for for people that are grieving, it it's you think you're being helpful, but it becomes this huge weight of I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And it's and it's that people don't want to meet us there. It's the same reason we do the grief olympics. If if we were talking about, if Kat, if you if I was telling you about a funny movie I had seen, some new thing that just came out. Oh my gosh, it just came out. Here's this funny movie. You wouldn't, in the middle of our conversation, say, Well, I saw a funny movie five years ago and it was like this. You would want to understand why I thought the movie was funny. You'd want to try to picture it in your mind as I was describing this scene, because you'd want to meet. Me there and be there with me. Maybe get a chuckle too.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

People don't want to do that with grief.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

They don't want to do that. So they push it, push it away. I talk about this in my uh third book, my second book, three years later. I'll give you the lowdown on that piece. I don't know how that came about. Uh that I had gotten a knee replacement. This this blew me away because this was like you know, a year or two after Brian died. I'd gotten a knee replacement, and I'd be hiking, and and still today, I've now I've got two replacements and a hip replacement. So I've got I'm falling apart. And and people come up to me and they say to me as they see me going, they might see me like, you know, struggle with this. They're like, How's your knee? Or how's your hip? How's it going? And it was noteworthy to me that at the very same time, I mean, it's a damn knee. Really, it's not a big deal. Nobody ever asked about my grief. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Nobody ever said, How's your grief? Because they wanted it to be over. They assumed it would be over. And it's it's when you think about it, it was I had a knee operation four years ago. People still ask me how my knee is doing. Really? I mean, that's like, how's the knee holding up? Very rarely do I ever get people that say, How's your grief? And let me tell you, if you are trying to be helpful to somebody, I don't care whether it's addiction, anxiety, depression, guilt, grief, it could be all you have to say to them is, how is your blank? Or even a better way to say it is, how is the instead of your? Because your makes a kind of ownership. But if you say someone comes to me, they don't say, How's the knee? Right? How's the hip going? Right? How's the grief going, Scott? That is so helpful. How's the anxiety going, cat? How's the loss going, cat? How's the PTSD going, cat? How's the depression going? All of those things are going to people don't ask that because they're afraid you're going to vomit all of your feelings all over them, and they don't want to go there. They'd rather just say, I'm sorry for your loss.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

But the bad you do such a service for someone by just asking them, how's the depression these days? You're going to get a response like, I wasn't so bad on Monday, but Tuesday was a very hard day. That's what you're going to get. And they're going, you're going to be a witness to them that validates their experience and helps them push through this shaming bullshit that we throw on people about ever anything that's going on in our lives.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

I was I was listening to another podcast that you were on. Uh shit you don't talk about. And you you talk about how like uh you're talking to the host, like, well, when you went to school, you don't just stop learning. Right. So like you're gonna have different moments in your life where the grief is gonna pop up again. It's not gonna just go away. It's always gonna be there. Whether it's five years from now, thirty years from now, it's always gonna be there. And I that's why I love that you wrote like the books that you did. It wasn't just the initial book, but it was in three years and then five years, and now you have another one. What have been the the shifts in in your grief from the initial trauma of losing your husband to to now? Like how has your grief shifted?

SPEAKER_01 26:37

The grief hasn't shifted, I've shifted. That's a it's the the grief is still there. I could I could I can feel it now. Um I could feel it when we were talking about, you know, are you asking questions about Brian? And the the piece that has shifted is that I'm not fueling it, and I'm not pushing it away. Those are the things that have shifted, those are the important things. I'm not fueling it. The problem with anything is the fueling, not the thing. It's the problem with like think about it this way. Have you ever had a headache, Cap?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Everybody. You listeners probably have had a headache. Think of a time when you had a headache and it just was there, you had a headache, and you were going about your business and how it was. Now think of another time when you also had a headache. Maybe it was the same intensity, maybe a little more, but you fueled it. You fueled it with thinking like, oh my God, this is the worst headache I've ever had. I can't believe I've got this headache. Because I didn't drink enough water, do I have to, I shouldn't be taking advice. That's not good for my stomach, but oh my gosh, I just need to lie down. Oh my God, those kids just get shut up, or those dogs barking in the distance. Like, just this is the worst headache ever. Once you start going on with the cycling about whatever that, whatever the headache's about, then that headache is ten times worse.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Right? In Buddhism, in Buddhism, it's called the second arrow. And so the second arrow, we we all have problems in our life, right? The the grief impacts us, anxiety impacts us, worry impacts us. Then we shoot ourselves with a second arrow about how bad, how tough, how this, how bad, all the way we go. It's the fueling that's the problem, not the thing itself. And then the other piece that's also related to the fueling is the pushing it away because the thinking is it's still here. I can't believe it, it's still going on after all these years. And when you think about it, that's just ridiculous. Let's think for a second, Kat, what you would have had to do in the past to not feel the grief and loss about your brother. Think about what would not have had to happen for you to not want to dedicate this episode to your brother. Think about how he would just have to be this distant, I don't give a shit about him, person. Because I I know on the day that your brother died, thousands of other people died.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

And you're not dedicating this to them. Because they were hot, they're not important to you. They just you just who cares? Lots of people died on the day that Bryant died. I didn't shed one tear for them. I still don't shed one tear for them. I don't even know who they are.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Of those two things. So the first thing that this grief that I'm feeling right now is a testament to is the power of Brian in my life. Like the cat, it's the testament of the power of your brother in your life. But the second, even more powerful thing, is the grief that I'm feeling, the grief that you're feeling, the grief that other people listening to this have for people they've lost in your life. It's a direct reflection of your capacity to love and your capacity to be vulnerable. Why would we want to get rid of that? Grief is well grief is worth the price of admission. That is the price of admission. And it's well worth paying. I'd pay it in a heartbeat. Because if for me not to grieve Brian today would mean I wouldn't have those thirty-one years. Man. That's where I'm grieving those thirty-one years.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

I wouldn't change that.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

I I I found when I Um this was just recently when my my father passed. Um I had to go I I chose to go to grief support group. Right. Um 'cause the counselor for me, I couldn't I couldn't do a council I couldn't deal with all that. I didn't want to rehash my whole childhood. You know what I mean? Like I wanted to I just wanted to be present with people, I wanted to be able to cry, I wanted people like just to talk or to listen or to just not feel alone. Right? Because I was going to people in my family, I'm like, y'all are I can't do this right now with you. And so but I went to these strangers and I found I had a lot more in common with them than not. And to hear them share their grief, whether it was six months ago or five years ago, it helped me look at grief a lot differently. And I remember one thing that the the the facilitator of the group said is you have to make time for it. You have to make time for it. Whether it's when it comes up, you have to let it be. You have to make time for it, whether it's a a song or you see a TV show that reminds you of them or an old shirt. You have to make time for that. And you have to honor your grief and your relationship with them. And that, like, when I heard that it was like a shift. Like, oh, okay, it doesn't have to dominate my whole life, but I can still take like that five or so minutes and be like, I'm gonna remember you right now. You know, I didn't have to run from it so much, right?

unknown 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

And I'm curious, like, what you think about like grief support groups in that sense. Like, do you have an opinion or a thought on those?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

I think the reality is is that it's it's it's I would not necessarily call them grief support groups. I would call them support groups of people who have their head out of their ass. Uh because the reality is is that all of all of your friends that knew you and your brother and knew you and your father, they're all grieving too. They just got their head up their ass. They could easily, easily meet you. I mean, you you said it so clearly. You said, I just wanted to just feel what I'm feeling. I just wanted to be there and and have other people understand and not push it away. Right? That's what you got. You got witnesses in that group who said, and and and the connection that you got in that group, because people share, people are probably thinking, what uh how is that not like the grief Olympics? Because when people are in those grief support groups, they're sharing their grief and their rawness to build connection. When we're grieving and we tell somebody that we've lost someone and they talk talk about their pet iguana that they lost two years earlier, they're just doing that to kind of shut you up because they don't know what to what else to say. When you're in a grief support group and people are talking about that, they're being real and sharing that. And the the sad reality is that the truth of our life, the truth of our existence, there is none of us that are immune to suffering, illness, death, pain. We're surrounded by a grief support group. They just all have their head up their ass.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

And they don't want to go there.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

No.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

And so when you go to a grief support group, you're getting there together with people that are like, okay, I'm gonna embrace this piece and talk about it and be courageous, courageous.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Yeah. And I I I went there for about like a year, um, you know, on and off. And like I love the way in your book how you talk about grief is more of a you have to incorporate it into your life. Right? It's and when I stopped looking at it from the stages of grief, like because I kept feeling like I was failing. I was like, I am feeling this grief thing. Like I am failing it. I've been failing it. And the guy is like, and the gentleman is like, no, he was not a fan of it either, because he was very I forget the disempowering the person who was like experiencing grief. And he's like, No, just move that aside. You know, he's like because you're always gonna change, you're always gonna grieve. And once like I learned to just not look at it as like I'm failing it. It changed everything. And you know I I wish as a society you would stop getting away from oh, you get your your three days breathing. And then you gotta get back to life like nothing happened.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

And like, and you say something in your book, which I love, is a chapter of like I forget the name of it, but it was basically don't ask, act. And like you talk about a friend who you were supposed to go on a vacation with. But then COVID like dampened that.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

What does it mean? What did it mean to you when your friend just took that initiative and just reached out to you and did something that maybe you weren't in a like you couldn't do or you could you think you could do or yeah, the the we do this all the time, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 38:52

We you know, we it's like we s we we ask people if they want help. Pick a topic, right? Do you need any help? And like there's a piece in our in the background. We got our fingers crossed and our arms crossed. We're like, I hope they're not gonna ask. I hope they're not gonna say yes. I hope they're not gonna say yes. It's it's when people just act because they know. I sh I shattered my hip in July on a tough mutter. Uh, and I mean, I was out. I'm here in this big house, all these farm animals to feed, uh, and this rescue on crutches in a wheelchair for weeks. I'm still recovering. So this is what eight months later. I'm still going to physical therapy and working on this. I mean, I I had to get flown in a helicopter. My to the to and have triple femur fracture, dislocation, all this other stuff. And uh, no small things because I'm an overachiever. And and people called and said, you know, can I help? And I was like, no, I'm I'm I'm all set. I mean, I'm like wasting away, right? And then there were people that just didn't call, they showed up with food. They're like, here's some food. We know you're probably having a hard time. This is really great that you can like you can microwave this stuff and it will, or you can pop it in the oven and it will be a piece that you can do. You know, I had um uh things to deal with with my family, and uh I was struggling, you know, with that with the dogs and my family and all this other stuff, and they just acted. They just acted because I was like in a kerfuffle, had no idea what to do on this stuff. Um I had uh a problematic housemate and uh uh friend and colleague Stephanie came over and she was like, Well, take, I'm take, I'll take care of this. And she took care of it, got him in the car, got him out of there, and it was like all this stuff that I would have said, if she had said, You want some help, I'd be like, no, I'm fine. I'm okay. I got it. When we, you know, I know this as an EMT. Certainly as an EMT, I'm gonna come up to somebody and say, Can I help you? Right? Because I'm not gonna do that stuff. But that's if if somebody's bleeding to death on the road, we don't go up to them and say, Do you want some help? Stop bleeding. How you doing over there? I'm fine, okay, right? We act. We act. If someone's not if someone is choking on um uh something, or if someone passes out and is having a heart attack, we are trained to act and act and act and act. Call 911, start CPR, right? That's what we're but we don't do that in these emotional areas for people or these difficult areas for folks. Um and it's uh you know it's it reflects that capacity of love that people struggle with, keep people at a distance. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

What what do you think? Because you hit I can I can I can only imagine like what going to the loss of your husband and getting hit with COVID that whole thing was like that had to be such a that had to be such a time. And you know 'cause that was that was life changing for everybody, especially when you're already when you're locked down and you lost your h your your husband. And you gotta there's so much like I can't even imagine how you even made sense of most days. Right? Like how you got through most days to be honest with you. What started because you shared in your book like journals, just you know, unedited journals. And I found it beautiful like when you shared about your husband and your um um your union, you know, like songs that you're and I thought that was so beautiful that you just you didn't want it edited. You know, just as you were and can you talk about why it's important to not edit those parts?

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah, and actually that's why I put that in the book. I really I s I gave a lot of thoughts so that for for folks. That are listening in this in that book, Come As You Are Meditation in Grief. There's a section, the second half of the book is called Grief Unplugged. And it's just a journal that I wrote. And I made a conscious choice to not edit the journal to whatever came out, even if there were misspellings, whatever, run-on sentences. I wanted, I wanted to create a space where people could see that rawness that I was feeling. And I couldn't think of a way to express it in the first part of the book. And I was like, I just, I just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna include this journal that I had done. And that's actually that's the journal that I was sending to that therapist to debrief that she didn't want to read. Maybe she's read this book now, and it's like, I like what I'm doing. Um and and you know, we want everything to be clean. That's the other piece. We want and and and grief isn't clean, life isn't clean, right? We we are so looking for the clean, simple, silver bullet of life. Like we want to be happy. Oh, you're overweight, take ozempic. Oh, you're depressed, take this SSRI, oh you're this, take that, and suddenly you've got like this huge thing of things that you're taking that are this and and it's it doesn't, it keeps us from being human and addressing the messiness that comes with life.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

I have a friend who just she lost her son a couple months ago. And uh it's funny, she's a therapist. She's a therapist, and she's read the book. This is how ingrained this shit is, right, in our life. And she read the book and she called, she sent me a text. She called me and then she sent me a text. She says, I really need to talk to you because I today's a really tough day. It's like two months after his his death. And I think I'm losing this battle with grief. Right. Even those words are about fixing it, right? And I called her up and uh talked to her later on in the day. And she said, by the time I got around to it, she's like, Oh, I'm much better. I'm like, why is that? She said, Well, I ended up doing other things. I'm like, and you know, things change. She works at a 12-step program, and in in the 12 steps, there's a slogan, this too shall pass. And I said that to her. I said, you know, this too shall pass. She's like, Yeah, she's I said, and it will be back. And it might be back worse, and it might be back less. Who knows? Right? Who knows? Just be there with it. And then I reminded her, I said, and you know, this isn't a battle to be won. There is no, what's the what's the goal of the battle?

SPEAKER_03 47:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

What's the goal? The what she's like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right, she said. Right? So struggling, same after knowing that because it's uh it's this painful emotion, and she's got this piece around wanting to push it away. Right? The store, the second arrow. That's like a third arrow. It's like this, there's this piece of like, I can't believe I'm still grieving, all this other stuff, and how bad it is, and how I miss him, and all this other stuff that magnifies it. But then it's like, why is this still going on two months from now? It was a hard day. Yeah. We have a snowstorm that's coming into the New England, supposedly, right? Well, it's not going to be snowing tomorrow, and it's going to be hot at some point, and we're going to have a drought, and it's going to be raining, and it is. If it's raining, get out an umbrella, put on some rain gear, and go out in the rain.

unknown 48:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Bitching about the rain and how the rain's never going to end, and how it's been this way for weeks, and oh my God, I can't believe I still live here, and all this other stuff. That's the second arrow is not going to do anything to fix the rain. It's just rain. End of story. Everything else is just bullshit that we're ladling on.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

You know, back in back in December, I had lost my cat. And my vet does this beautiful thing in her practice. Where she had lost 250 pets from her practice. And she she handmade ornaments on this tree, and you could come and take the ornament off and put it on your tree, and it said the name of the animal on there.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

And I when I went in to go get my ornament. I remember I remember thinking I was like, Wow, at any point during my year, I could have encountered somebody having a really bad day. And not knowing. And I think you know, like how you talk about grief, it could if we look at it that way, we never know. It can bring us together if we can go to those places that are hard.

unknown 50:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

That are messy and not so pretty. Because grief is you it is a beautiful journey at times, but it's not always pretty. And if you can sit with someone and say, like, I'll sit here with you. It can be so beautiful, and how how wonderful could that be for all of us? If we could just see people in their suffering and not be like, Here's a card. Or thoughts and prayers, or you know, you know, just like really was there.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

And what do you have to say to someone right now who's maybe listening and maybe grieving?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

If somebody's grieving right now, that's the question. Congratulations. Congratulations. Wouldn't that be a much better thing to say to somebody other than I'm sorry? Congratulations. Because what you're feeling is a gift. It's the flip side of the coin. It's not going to be there forever. And I bet if you take a second and it's just jot down on a sheet of paper, how's my grief been this week? Answer that question. How's my grief been this week? And you'll see that on Monday it was this way. On Tuesday it was that way. Like the weather, like clouds passing in the sky. It's not the same from moment by moment. And that's not to make it better. Don't get trapped trying to stay in the present and notice the clouds to make it better. It's not to be in the rain and say, tomorrow's going to be sunny. This rain's not going to last forever. That's what the rational emotive behavior therapists want you to do. They want you to say, tomorrow's going to be sunny. They want you to write down some affirmation bullshit, stand in front of a mirror, write it on a card, and then look at yourself and say it. Tomorrow's going to be better. I'm a good person. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That stuff never works, ever. Because the voice, the evil twin in your head knows exactly what you're saying and already has a counter argument to that stuff. So, Kat, you go in the front of a mirror and say, you know, you know, tomorrow's going to be better. And the voice in your head is saying, no, it's not, no, it's not. He's going to be off it goes. You know it's true. You do it yourself when those things happen. I'm just saying it. And so it's not to say I'm in the rain and tomorrow it's going to be sunny. This too shall pass. And that's going to make it better. Because when you're doing that, you're pushing it away. Don't push it away. It just is. That's your truth. And be grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

I love that. And I also love how um you have you have an animal rescue, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

And was that was that something that your husband started?

SPEAKER_01 54:22

We started that together. And I'm still continuing that with new and different animals that we rescue and then work to re-home. So it's not a sanctuary where animals come here to die. We work to re-home them when we can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Is that do you think that's one of the ways that helps you either maybe remember him or stay connected to him?

SPEAKER_01 54:59

It feels like I'm honoring his legacy when I'm doing these pieces. And uh and it feels like he was a bit, he wanted to run an animal hospice at one point because he was like, you know, I I want to take care of sick and dying animals. Um that's how what his heart was. And uh, and so this is similar, you know. I'm the I'm the one who, you know, rescued the first donkeys that we got here. One of the donkeys just recently died, and that was very hard. That was very hard. Um struggling with my hips to uh, you know, get that donkey to another spot on these acreages so that the uh natural processes of life could take place, you know, and uh and that donkey was one of the first animals we rescued together. Was very, I remember a month ago crying really hard. I couldn't, I could I had to walk away. I was like, you know, my legs were killing me, my my my heart was screaming, not physically, emotionally. And um I was like, um, the donkey was on a sled and fell off the sled. And I was like, I gotta put it back on the sled. And that was the I was like, all right, I'm done for the day. Um and my housemate then uh took he didn't he didn't ask. He said, but we he just he didn't say you want help with that. He he went up and he he he said he said, I uh where's the donkey? And I said, Well, it's I was working on dragging it through the woods. He said, Did you get it done? I said, No. And the next thing I knew, he came back down. I'm like, where have you been? He says, I took the donkey the rest of the way.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Didn't ask, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Didn't ask. Had he asked, I would have said, I'm fine. I'm set.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Right? Act, don't ask.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

I love that. Is there is there anything else you want anybody in the audience listening to know about, Brian?

SPEAKER_00 57:30

He's still at my side.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

And I'm grateful for that. Um, and he didn't give up in our lives together, in our relationship together. That's why we were together 31 years, because it's not magic that happens, it's perseverance, it's hanging in there, and uh and so yeah, he's still here, and I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Is there a way people can can donate to your animal rescue? Is there some is there like a website or is that yes, there is.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

We have a it's we're from the 501c3 not for profit. And if you Google Willoughby rescue, uh, and I and I'll send you, I can give you the link to put in the show notes also. Um, PayPal has a great piece where people can donate through PayPal, and PayPal doesn't charge any fees for the 501c3. If you're if you're a not-for-profit, you know, and you fill out all and and they will not charge you or the person who's donating bank processing fees and other stuff like that. It's really nice. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

What else are you working on right now? Any other books? Any other?

SPEAKER_01 59:12

I am working on a book on on navigating relationships together. Okay. On collaboration versus negotiation or ultimatums, uh, called the Co-Pilot's Guide to Relationships. And I'm working on a finishing up a book on hiking the GR20, which is a hiking trail in the uh in Corsica. And so that's a piece that I'm doing, and then I've been most recently last week, I got sucked into in a good way, working on doing a little bit promotion. I wrote a book called Living the Mongala Suda, which is the Mongala Suda for you listeners, it's a Buddhist, a Suda is like a sermon, and and it's very short, and it talks about 38 blessings that we have in our life. And the I wrote a book on taking that and turning it into life design. And so rather than just saying, for example, one of the blessings is I abstain from intoxicants. And so I have a whole chapter on that. On what does that mean? And how do you do that? Is it not just is it just is it just liquor? Is it is it pornography? Is it uh Facebook? Is it action movies? What does that mean? And if you're abstaining from intoxicants, what are you doing? What's the flip side of that? What you should you really be doing? And I go through all the 38 blessings to do that. And I was working on creating a website for that this week and some chanting of the of the Suda so that people could really kind of connect with that. So I'm doing a little bit of book promotion um in the while writing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

You are a busy, busy man. You are a busy, busy man. I was looking at like your website, I was like, wow, this guy just doesn't how beautiful it is, like all that you do. Like for the animals, for your community, you know, for for Brian, for yourself, just like how rich of a life do you lead, you know? And I I hope it's okay. I found a quote on your on on your website. I hope it's okay if I read it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Okay. If there's one thing. I want to say to the person who finds this book in their own version of year one or year three or year twelve is this. You don't have to be finished to be okay. You don't have to understand everything to keep going. You don't have to let go of the past to embrace what's here. You just have to keep coming as you are. Again and again and again. That's the whole thing. That's the whole path. And for today. Just today, that's enough. And that was from your book, Come as You Are Five Years Later.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

And I encourage everyone to go to your website G ScottGram. G-R-A-H-A-M.com. There you can find out more about his book, podcast, your do you still do your um you have a YouTube channel, is that correct? Do you still have that? Yes. Um, you can find um all about what Scott is doing these days. And all his wonderful books. And thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Thank you so much. Thank you. And I I hope in your corner of the world you don't get too much more snow. And any any last words you want to leave us with?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

No, that was a great final quote. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

You're welcome. And thank you for sharing your time with us today. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.