Ep. 5 - How to Influence Your Whole Sales Pipeline with Marketing - with Carrie Kelly

For cybersecurity buyers, analyst firms like Gartner and Forrester function as influencers. For a CISO, picking the wrong vendor isn't just a bad decision, it can cost them their career.

In this episode of LEADERS IN B2B MARKETING, host Sammy Gebele sits down with Carrie Kelly, Marketing Executive, B2B Tech & Cybersecurity. 

You'll learn:

1. How to influence the sales pipeline with marketing
2. Which metrics you should track to measure the impact of your marketing strategy
3. Which content pillars work best for your sales pipeline, and tips for creating them
4. The power that in-person events and unique experiences can hold for your business
5. Why your company should have an analyst relations strategy

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Get in touch with Carrie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrienkelly/

Carrie's book recommendations:
Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets by Al Ramadan | https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062407619
The Power of Story: Rewrite Your Destiny in Business and in Life by Jim Loehr | https://www.amazon.com/dp/0743294521

...

Sammy Gebele and SAWOO offer a B2B community-building service that establishes you as a thought leader in your industry and helps you build genuine, human-to-human relationships with your dream clients.

Get in touch with Sammy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sammygebele/
More episodes and insights: leadersinmarketing.io 

...

Conversation originally aired on September 29, 2022, when Carrie Kelly was CMO at Cyderes. At time of re-airing, she is VP of Global Integrated Marketing at Commvault.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Welcome to Leaders in B2B Marketing. I'm Sammy, your host and founder of the community. In the show, I speak to CMOs and DPs of marketing about their best practices and hard-won insights. Beyond the podcast, our community is all about connecting B2B marketing leaders like you to learn and grow together. Tell us your biggest challenge and we'll personally introduce you to a peer who's lived to it. This will help you find your own way forward. And the best part, membership is free. Visit leadersinb2bmarketing.com to sign up. And now let's get started with the show. I'm very happy to have Kerry Kelly with us today. She is CMO at CyDaris. Kerry, welcome to our show.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Pleasure to have you with us. Tell me about your company, CyDaris. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

So, CyDaris, uh the letters in the name CyDaris actually bring together three words cyber, defense, and response. Simply put, it's what we do. We provide cyber defense and response services, uh, including offensive security assessments, consulting, and managed services, which is uh a big, a big need in the market right now. Uh that includes managed detection and response.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Very good. And um and I imagine a growing market in total.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Um yes, very fast growing market.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Yeah. What is your job at Zeddos?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

So I am the chief marketing officer. Uh I run the marketing organization and work very, very closely with the sales organization and the rest of the company to make sure that we have a very uh strong brand, that our customers resonate with our brand prospects. Um, and of course, you know, making sure that we we get really great pipeline into the system so that our sales team has great uh great potential to sell quickly.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Very good. And um can you tell us about the marketing um team setup?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Sure. So um I'm actually six weeks into the job. I'm fairly new. Um, so this is uh this is a process where we have a team that definitely needs to be built out and we need to build it out for scale uh so that we scale as we grow. We're a very fast-growing company. So I'm working right now on setting up centers of excellence across the team, including product marketing, which to me is one of the most critical functions in an organization, uh, so that we have great intelligence, so that we understand the buyer inside and out uh and get some great content. And then we uh I've built a growth marketing team. We're in the process of building a growth marketing team, which includes your digital uh and demand gen and uh content marketing. And then uh field and channel marketing, which in the cybersecurity space is also a very critical function, uh, and put that together so that we can work on events across the regions, either with our channel partners or independently as a company.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Um can can you give us a proxy of the size and growth of uh Cydevus?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Sure. So the company right now is about 800 employees strong and growing really, really fast. Uh revenue is in the hundreds of millions uh in that range, the hundred, the hundreds million range, I'll say that. Uh and we actually just put out an announcement last week. I'm really excited that we've uh achieved about 63% growth in our focused area, which is the managed managed services area. So very fast growth. And actually the company Sideris is uh the uh the merger of two very prominent security uh security businesses in the space. It was Fish Tech and uh the Hersheyvet group, and that uh merged together over 2021 uh to formulate Cyberus. So it's it's definitely it's a newly formed business that makes us kind of a powerhouse, and the growth has been tremendous over the past year.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Uh so it was the growth over the past year, the 63%.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, yes, 63% over the past year.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Oh, okay. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

Very good. And um, what geographical markets are you serving?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Uh so we do service the globe. We service uh global enterprises uh all around, all around the world. Uh prominently, though, most of our customer base is in North America and Canada and the UK. Those are probably the three main focus areas.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Um is it also the focus area in terms of future growth, or do you also focus on expanding other areas on the globe?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Definitely expansive. So those are probably the areas where we have the most customers. We're definitely looking to expand even uh further into the AMEA market, uh, definitely APAC and of course the LATAM space. So, like I said, we do have global customers because we serve the enterprise mostly. That's our ideal customer. And I know we might talk about that more. Uh, but um, yes, we're definitely looking to expand globally globally over the next year and of course uh as we as we continue to grow.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Great. So so who's your ideal customer?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

So yeah, so our ideal customer is the CISO, the chief information security officer. And uh ideally the the profile for our business is, like I said, the larger enterprise, uh, you know, a customer who definitely might need some uh security operations center augmentation. Either they have a SOC uh or they have some form of a SOC and they either need uh someone to come in and run it and manage it, uh, or they need um, you know, they just need need some services to be augmented within their SOC.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

And then uh what does SOC mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Sorry, yeah. So uh security operations center. That's really the yeah, I call it the front lines. I don't think that's uh something that I coin by any means. I think it's pretty well known that uh anyone that's working in a security operations center, that's really the front lines of cybersecurity in the enterprise or any organization, really, because that's where they see all the alerts coming in. That's where they're looking at the threats and doing the threat detection and the hunting and and resolving those alerts so that they can stop breaches.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

And what what target size does uh your enterprise companies have in terms of employees or revenue?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Um, you know, I guess it can it can vary. Uh enterprise, I would say anything definitely above a thousand employees is probably ideal, um, maybe topping out at about uh 50k or more employees. So, and this is a unique for us. It really, we can service any customer, but that that larger enterprise is probably where we do the best work because that's where a lot of complexity comes into play across uh you know a complex ecosystem with you know your uh you know, you've got you've got cloud, you've got uh, you know, tons of endpoints, you know, in in yeah, tons of endpoints uh and just threats coming from all different areas. So it's that enterprise with a really complex ecosystem.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

And um, because I have no clue about this this area of a company, how big are those teams usually in in these uh these companies?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Gosh, you know what? That's a really good question. And that can vary, honestly, between uh it's it's not really standard uh necessarily by the size of company. Uh sometimes you will get a really mature cybersecurity operation at a business because they're in a particular vertical, like financial services. Uh banks clearly have to have really robust, very mature cybersecurity posture. So they might have a lot bigger of a team. I really don't think I could confidently give you a number, to be quite honest, but it really does vary what the maturity of a cybersecurity operation might be, depending on the type of company, more so than the size almost.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Okay. And are you focusing on these types of industries or are you industry agnostic?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

We're pretty agnostic. We can serve any industry, but we definitely have uh a large amount of customers in the financial space for sure. Manufacturing is another one, if you can believe it. You know, there's just a lot of complexity, IoT, you know, again, it's that complex ecosystem that these businesses they get hacked.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

That is bad, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

You don't we don't want to want that.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

No, no, no, definitely not. Um, oh yeah, yeah. Um, sorry to interrupt. Um so you just started as uh CMO, and that's quite exciting, just a couple of weeks in. Um, did you do anything before you had your first day at your new company? And um let's start with this question.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, that's a good question. So I didn't take a lot of time off between gigs, uh, maybe about a week, but definitely in an effort to prepare. I mean, I just I tried to get an idea before I even started of what was the team like, you know, what were the strengths, what were the weaknesses, what really was the company, what was, you know, what was Robert, our CEO, looking for in a CMO and what did he want to see achieved by the marketing organization? What's the ultimate goal? So I definitely tried to get as much information as I could before going in. And then of course, as I went in, I, you know, I built out a very robust 30, 60, 90-day plan with goals and and and very, you know, big bullets of what I wanted to achieve over that period of time.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Can you can you deep dive with me into this 30, 60, 90 days plan? Because I think this is really interesting. Um, what do you do to prepare? Um, what are the key points that you put on as as like your bullet points? Um, and I mean you're a couple of weeks in, but maybe you can already say if something uh panned out or if you had to change plans.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, um, so it's the first 30 days definitely was was discovery and and there were a lot of things I had to dive in and discover. And I kind of knew already what we were up against. For instance, uh, you know, the marketing, uh, the marketing operation needed to, you know, we needed to make sure that there was, you know, better lead flow going from tool to tool, that there was more transparency in the data and and just a stronger marriage between uh how leads were coming in on the marketing side and being uh transferred over to the BDRs, the BDR team and the sales team. So I kind of had a really strong knowledge base up front that that was going to have to be something we needed to focus on. So spent a lot of time in the first 30 days doing that due diligence, trying to dig out any numbers that I could for benchmarking, spending a lot of time with the team. You know, I had one-on-ones with every member of the team, just trying to get to know each of them, what their ambitions were, what their goals were. You know, are they what do they think the strengths and the weaknesses are, and just really kind of summing up everything. And I was lucky because in my first 30 days, we had an executive strategy session that was pretty much my first day on the job. So I got a really good understanding up front of what the business expected, what all the leadership team was going to expect from each other. And that was a really great way to come in. And then I'm in the 60-day section right now. So a lot of it is okay, um, you know, from the discovery, here's the plans that we know we need to formulate and making sure I'm, you know, doing my world tour within the company so that everybody knows what marketing is looking to do, trying to get achieve some low-hanging fruits with some quick campaigns out in market. And then, of course, 90 days will be if there's any real change that needs to happen or um, you know, uh any anything that we've discovered from the first 60 days, that's what we're really going to try to implement and then optimize from there. That's essentially what I'm what I'm doing right now.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Um, so so my first career was in management consulting. It sounds pretty much what the uh I I did as a consultant coming in, asking a lot of questions, finding out what the pain points are. Usually the ideas for the solutions are already within the company, uh, and then make a plan based on that. How did you um like find out what the key pain points are uh and mix it with your know-how and your own uh perspective uh so that you came up with an execution plan? Like, did you do like was it only the interviews that you did, and you uh basically derived everything that you needed to know from the interviews for the people in marketing? Whom did you really talk to to get this information?

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. A lot of it was uh uh not just even the leadership team or the executive team, but it was, you know, talking to a few folks across the sales team too, because it's really important. You know, if marketing and sales aren't aligned and completely, you know, working with one another, then there's obviously a massive challenge. So not just the executive leadership team or my team, but making sure that I was getting an idea from, you know, members of the sales team and understanding what their what they saw as good and bad, you know, talking to the leaders of the lines of business across managed services, professional services, uh, and identity and access management services, and just just listening. So it was primarily just talking to people and just hearing what they had to say. And then as I'm doing that and diving into the systems and seeing what programs are out there and uh trying to get an understanding of how my team works, it's it's that whole conglomeration, consolidation of information, and then you know, just distilling it down in my own, uh in my own way to to know what to do to drive forward. So luckily, having done this for many, many years, it was you can pick out the things really, really easily. Um, but it's nice to take the time to just talk to multiple people and reinforce what you pretty much already know.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Yeah, it's really interesting because that's exactly what we did as, or I did as a management consultant. So it seems to be you have the expertise. So you saw a couple of companies doing your career and you saw what things went well and didn't, and come and combine this with the with the interview feedback that you get. I I assume this is a really good foundation to get at least the the low-hanging fruits um and and some quick wins, no?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Definitely. Yeah, I think it's it's what anybody should do. Just just talk to people. I think that's the best way.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Yeah, really nice. Um and was there a main thesis why they specifically hired you and also why you specifically said yes to this job?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah. So I mean, uh I came from a uh managed detection and response business. So I think that was definitely one reason why they they saw value in me, is coming from another company in an extremely similar space. So I came with the knowledge of the, you know, to actually execute on the marketing side of it was something I could do very, very quickly. Um, and in this space, it is good to have that nuanced knowledge of how marketing works. Uh, and then of course, where I did come from before, it was a very similar setup of, you know, coming in and and and building out the maturity of the marketing team and putting, you know, basic functionality into place and then, you know, working with that team to exponentially grow very quickly. So I I think it was it was really probably the last role that that was the most interesting to them. And for me, it was the same thing. Number one, um, working for Robert Herzhivek, who is the CEO, is definitely someone that I admire greatly. So just that alone was very exciting for me to have a chance to come in and work with him. And then the the size of the company is bigger from where I came from. So that was also enticing because I'm always looking to learn more and challenge myself. Uh, but I was excited that it was another opportunity for me to build and um, you know, bring best practices and knowledge of what it means to really grow and scale, not just a team, but a marketing, uh marketing program. So that was all really exciting for me and something I just couldn't pass up.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah. And it's really interesting to hear that because I put myself into the shoes of someone who needs to hire people like you. And um, it's really interesting to, on the one hand, how uh you and now, boss, um, selected you, uh, on what kind of criteria were important to them, and how you also were were basically interested in this position, what was in there for you. Um, so um that's why I like to ask this question. It's really interesting, also from the I need to hire someone, what do they look for? And especially in the marketing and sales organization as leaders, um you you need to nail this position, otherwise you're gonna have a problem here.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Right. Yeah, I completely agree. And it's it's it's funny how sometimes you just find that perfect match and and sometimes you don't even know how you found it. Uh and this was one of those, this was one of those rare moments where it just it just came together really quickly. And I think we both just knew, you know what, you're the one. And I think we both pretty much thought that.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

So perfect. Yeah. Um, so what what is your um now main KPI um that you focus on as CMO?

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I definitely like many CMOs, uh, like to focus on pipeline, uh, marketing sourced and influenced pipeline. Uh I do like I look at marketing sourced really just from a you know a trend true ROI perspective. It's very easy to track marketing source if you have the right tools in place. Uh, but of course, we we try to track as much as possible influenced influenced pipeline, you know, what what are people doing across the whole marketing journey that is impacting them uh in the pipeline? And then of course to close, you know, so what deals are we actually impacting with content, with events, um, you know, or other marketing initiatives across the board? So that's definitely what I like to focus on is the pipeline. Also, because an MQL, while important to keep track of, is not it's definitely not the full story. And if we're not, if we're not contributing to the actual pipeline, then there's something wrong.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Um, so so two questions there. Um, first question is what kind of technology do you leverage to get these insights? So, what are what are the key technology stacks that you you have to have in your point of view, or you currently have to make it easy? Um, and and how do you measure like what KPI do you show your CEO? Um, or what what few KPIs so that your uh your boss basically directly knows are we on track, are we not on track? Um that's interesting to know.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah, so we uh right now again, you know, we're we're kind of looking at where we can mature the data consolidation and data storytelling. That's definitely a big deal to me, but we work within, we have Salesforce, uh HubSpot, and then we have SixtScents. So those are three really, really great tools where we can track incoming leads, we can track pipeline. Um, you know, we will be looking at other tools maybe for, you know, to consolidate all the data from those tools that help sort of tell, like I said, a more robust data story. But right now, uh those three tools are helping uh get a good sense of what leads are coming in and what is converting. Um, the second part of your question was uh what do I show, what do I show leadership, what do I show my CEO? So really uh, you know, for me and and across the business, the goal of the marketing team is to contribute to top of funnel and convert like top of funnel conversion into the pipeline. So I definitely make sure that on a monthly, quarterly basis, we're tracking uh web traffic, which is really important. Um, you know, and correlated to that, what kind of uh media mentions, press mentions, what what mind share are we getting in the market overall? Uh I definitely correlate that to social engagement, which is pretty a pretty big deal for us. Uh we tend to see a lot of yeah, well, um it's we definitely have a good followership. And then Robert, our CEO, with that, with that name brand of his, you know, can pull in a lot of engagement there. And then uh it's it's a big opportunity for us to convert that engagement into something meaningful on the brand side, meaning the Sidera side of the business. So we do look at social engagement and see how uh that is converting into web traffic or any meaningful engagement.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Just let's let's pause there just for a second. Social engagement. Um, which social platforms do you primarily focus on?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Primarily LinkedIn definitely is a really big one. Yeah. I mean, and then uh Instagram is actually something we've been playing a little bit more in, especially for his brand. Uh that's that's a really big winner for us. But definitely LinkedIn, I would say, is the most critical. We do put things on Twitter, but I don't think there's necessarily a lot of engagement from Twitter. It's just that's just, you know, to put put it out there. But but really LinkedIn, I think, is the most important one.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

And and when you talk about social engagement KPIs, what exactly do you mean? Is it like likes or comments or uh what is it that you track?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

I like to track uh comments, and then of course we see who's actually clicked. Um the likes are important too, of course. It's kind of all of the above, but but I would say I would put more weight in uh people actually commenting because it means we're putting the right stuff out there where we're literally engaging the audience.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Yeah, very good. Um, and understandable. Um does does your SAIS team also leverage then um these engagements? So I I tell you why. I ask because we are also like my company is focused on the space. And what I see work really well is if we see people engaging, it can also just be alike. And you then reach out to them, it's uh it's a much higher likelihood that they're willing to interact with you.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, completely agree. And I think that's something uh that the sales team is going to start doing more of, and it's something we're definitely gonna push because we have shown that when they engage and they uh especially when they comment. I mean, number one, that helps amplification, but it it starts a conversation. It's a place, it's a place for selling. So uh we're gonna be doing more of that, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

Very good. Um and so now we talked about what's important for you, and it's basically the focus on creating um or impacting, positively impacting the sales pipeline. Um, and and how do you um how do you focus on influencing the sales pipeline in marketing?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

So one thing that we uh that I find very, very important, and then that we're gonna keep trying to optimize on the team is a chance to learn from our customers, learn from prospects and really, really get to know what their triggers are, what makes them want to take action, what keeps them up at night. Uh, and I know a lot of people say that, but I think I think in most places that I've been, marketing gets that information from other people. They get it from product marketing, they might get some information from sales, but I think very rarely does marketing get a chance to actually interact with a customer and really have a back and forth dialogue and feel like they're getting to know them. And I think that's really important because that that translates so much better into messaging when you really have had a chance to speak with a customer and get to know them personally on their level. I mean, without that, without that connection, marketing really is just just kind of over and left field and it might hit and it might not, but you're gonna hit a lot more if you really know that customer. So that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Yeah. So I just to dive into this one because I think this is really interesting. I see it from a from a small, like I'm I'm the founder and CEO of a of a smaller company, much smaller than yours, like 15, 20 people now. But um I value a lot that I'm almost daily interacting with my target group. And it directly influences on the one hand uh what we focus on and executing, also the product basically, um, but it also of course impacts on how how and where we try to meet our potential clients. So I absolutely uh agree in a sense that if if we can get uh this this insight, if you're marketing people and you talk to clients uh potential clients, you will learn a lot. Now the question is how do you do that in practice?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So for us, I think a lot of that happens uh in having uh intimate face-to-face experiences. So those are your smaller field events where you're inviting your customer base out, your prospects, your account lists out to local events where you're having meaningful conversations that could be a lunch and learn where we're talking about best practices and cybersecurity. I'm making that up. Um, you know, or just sitting down and having dinner and talking back and forth. Again, I've seen uh I've definitely seen firsthand, and this is where a really good sales team does come into play, is it's it's the connections and the relationships you have with these people. That's where you build that foundational trust, if you will. And marketing can do that also on the digital side, but it takes really uh really relational messaging and and making sure that you're hitting on points that really matter to them. No one, CISOs, I would say especially, but nobody wants to be marketed to. You're looking for connections. And so um that's why I mean it's it's tougher on the digital side because I think people tend to overlook those messages, but that's where social really comes into play, too, and making that connection with our customers with just sharing information and and really meaningful uh you know informational content as opposed to talking at people.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

So um can you give me two examples? One on how you personally do it. So when do you get in front of these clients and go to events and talk to them? And how often do you do it? And pick any any position in in your team and how you do it for them. Because I mean, uh, some would say, uh, so playing the devil's advocate, that takes away time of doing the job in quotation.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Very true. Very true. And it's something, like I said, we we don't do enough, and and I'm brand new, so I have not had a lot of time at this company to sit with uh customers and just and just listen one-on-one, especially. Uh, but but the way the place we can do that in a fairly, fairly regulated, you know, so it's not necessarily taking away from work is a place like a customer advisory board where marketing is uh, you know, invited in to listen to the session and be able to ask questions. And of course, again, it's it's that session, and then being able to sit down with them after afterwards and have have a have a drink with them, you know, whatever that drink might be. Just sit down and have a back and forth uh conversation over a drink or uh an appetizer or something, and just just that's where that's where we can do that, and and hopefully where we're gonna get to do more of that on a very regular basis.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

How often do these customer advisory boards happen? And um if you can give me a um um a summary on how you execute that, because I I hear it more and more often. Um, and I see various ways on on how to implement it. Um have you been at one already?

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Not at this company, but uh typically a customer advisory board can happen once a quarter. Uh you know, sometimes you know, bigger companies will have those big customer summits where you know you have lots of events, and hopefully we're gonna get to that really, really soon. Uh, but but typically, you know, a customer advisory board is something that happens quarterly, either virtually, clearly the best kinds are in person, because that's where you get the most interaction. Um and you do that in partnership with your with your customer success team, uh, the ones who are literally, you know, customer success team or your sales team, the account managers who are maintaining those relationships. And you decide what kind of customer base is going to, you know, be a good, a good range of of your of your ideal customer profile, who you want to learn from more and and bring together. It's gonna be a fairly intimate group of people, because otherwise, too much, then it's a lot of white noise.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

But how many roughly would you say is good?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

I would say 10 to 15 is a good number for a customer advisory board. Um and that's who you would partner with to make it happen, you know, sales, product, whoever is maintaining those relationships and come together quarterly. It's it can be magical.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

And um, and doing such a day, I would assume, uh, what what are their gender points and why do these customers participate?

SPEAKER_01 29:22

I mean, a lot of it is because they believe in what you're doing. You give them access to, you know, what you're doing with your upcoming roadmap so they can, you know, see what's coming first, you know, offer them beta, beta testing on on products that you might be bringing to market ahead of time, um, you know, time with your CEO, one-on-one time for them. That's really, really meaningful, you know, and it's a chance for them to be heard and to set the agenda for where we go as a business. So I think there's a lot of incentive there. And of course, you know, we're gonna make sure that they have a really great time when they're when they're with us. So I think that's that's part of it too.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Very good. Yeah, it's a good way to lure someone in if you have on the one hand, you can influence uh the agenda of a company so that it fits you. And you can, I mean, everybody would like to have some time with a with a especially with your probably CEO if he's so so prominent in in your space.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah, I think that's a huge that's a huge part of it.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

So um coming back to the question, we we went a little bit sidetracked. Um uh the the the to I I will pose it again. Um, so how do you aim to influence the SASE pipeline? We were sidetracked in the sense that basically uh you say you have to be close to the customer, and that's uh that were all really valuable points. But let's go back to this one and finalize your your answer there.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah, so I mean the other part of it again is uh number one, just on the more tactical side, making sure you're very, very aligned with sales. So knowing where uh, you know, what conversations they're having with the customer, a customer who might be close to closing and understanding uh, you know, what is it that's keeping the customer from wanting to make that decision? And sometimes it's out of your control. Sometimes they just decide they can't spend the money that quarter and they need to hold the deal. But if it's something that is just not giving them the full amount of confidence, it's do we have a piece of content? Do we have a customer story? Can we help get them on the phone with another customer to validate what we're doing? It's it's definitely uh those uh you know references and customer stories that we can put together to help influence uh and help close deals, I would imagine. Um, and then of course, just generally speaking, again, I think what not only helps bring a prospect into the funnel and through pipeline, but I think when you have a really solid brand where you've given that customer a chance to interact with your brand uh even well before they've decided to purchase, um, you know, that's gonna help, that's gonna help accelerate the sales cycle because they they believe in you, they've connected with you. Uh, and I think a lot of the ways to do that is by creating a really strong uh relational brand story. You know, show them the human side of the business, show them why you care so much and and what is that brand promise that needs to come in and all of the elements of your business, not just the marketing, but your sales team needs to show it and how they interact with you. Um, the marketing content we put out needs to reflect that promise of being as fully invested in their future as in your own company's future. It's meaningful to them. And that's that's a relationship and a and a personal connection that I think is really important for the sales cycle.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Can you give me an example of the marketing content that you create then? Um, because it seems to be like it seems almost like magical what you have to do. Uh, you have to create a great brand that people can relate to. You have to make it relatable in terms of it's not only the company, but also the people within the company. Um, like how do you do that in practice?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

How does it look like it's funny, it you know, it goes it the the range, it's like a full range. I mean, there's some things that you need to do that I would say, you know, at the really high brand level where you're just introducing them to your business, you might have a really inspiring video or short video clips with powerful music that's gonna really resonate. And it sounds overly polished, but I think it's good for a uh, you know, I think it's good for the world to see that you have um, you know, you have elements of your business that are very polished because they want to see that sophistication. They want to know that you're not just completely, you know, what's the word, gritty or you know, totally doing everything on a shoestring because that might not resonate with them as far as feeling that that confidence in your in in in the business. They do need to see some polished pieces and you can put emotion into that, uh, you know, through powerful music, really great, you know, video production, um, stuff like that, meaningful stories.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

But then I think uh, you know, just to post, just just on this, sorry to interrupt, but I always like like, can you give me one hands-on um example of a video that you think works really well? And what's in there?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

I mean, I'm probably not the first marketer to say this, but I've uh, you know, my my go-to inspiring sort of manifesto video is the classic Apple, you know, um think different. Uh, you know, here's to the, oh gosh, here's to the oh my gosh, what is it? Here's to the crazy ones.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah. I mean, but but gosh, I mean, how much how do you do that at your company?

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Like, what is uh in your company a piece of content where you think that that's executed exactly how it should be?

SPEAKER_01 34:59

How do we do that at my company?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah, do you have one any example? So that I mean, I understand it in theory, so it's all fine, but I put myself into the shoes of someone who's saying, that sounds interesting, I would like to do that, but what does she exactly mean now?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah, so uh at this company, we have not done that yet. Uh, I can give an example from some of the place I have been recently where you um, I mean, it's it's what I would call a it's a manifesto video, and that's what here's to the crazy ones the Apple manifesto was. It was essentially their company manifesto, which talked about, you know, it was that rallying cry across the business of what uh, you know, what you want everybody to believe in culturally. What does this business stand for? And somebody has to write that, whether you hire a creative writer outside the company because you don't have that creative writer in-house, or if you do have that person who just knows how to write emotionally and and write down that manifesto. You know, what does this company want to stand for? And what do you want to be? And why do you want to be it? And what what makes you different? So you've got to write that. And then from there, it really is just it's it's a video production. So what me like what feeling are you trying to get across? Is it is it energy? Is it, you know, fast and is it like getting people motivated? And you know, you would choose your music and your background and everything to make sure that you're registered, you know, that that that that feeling is registering, or if it's really inspirational, you'd go for music, is a really big deal in a video production. So it's just working with someone who understands how to put that together and making sure that your brand voice and your uh brand identity are just really coming through visually as well as audibly, as well as you know, through the words that you're speaking.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Very nice. Thanks. So Diane interrupted you before. So we were at the point of okay, we had these um, I would say emotionally evoking uh first pieces of content. What what other top one, two or three categories would you put out there?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Uh definitely, I think the more, the more grainy, quick, quick, short videos that might show quick value propositions of what you offer, that's more on the, you know, when they're actually ready to engage with you as a company where they might be interested to buy. So it's those quick, again, punchy little videos that might be 30 seconds long and it could be motion graphics where you're just giving them a quick and dirty, hey, if you're looking to achieve X, you know, think about using Y. Um, and it's those quick informational pieces where it just helps them, you know, more at the top of the funnel register, okay, I mean, that is what I was looking for. So now I know that this person understands the outcome I need to achieve. And now I'm going to think about what they're telling me to consider to get there. Um, and then of course, further on in the funnel, it's things like buyer's guides and, you know, uh peer reviews and insights where you can send them so that they can actually see uh what other people are saying about you. And you've gotta uh you've definitely gotta use third parties and try to get uh that that validation outside of what you're saying about yourself. So that's a huge part of um a good marketing plan.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

So do you also include your existing customers into that?

SPEAKER_01 38:24

As much as possible, yes. Anyone who's willing to share a review, you know, we'll send them to places like Gartner Peer Insights uh or G2, something like that. And um, you know, if they really like us, we're gonna ask them to submit some sort of review and talk about their experience and uh because that is really, really meaningful. And then we're gonna, you know, leverage that obviously where we need to to send prospects to say, you know, go look at what what these people are saying about us and and understand what you're gonna get from somebody who's really been there.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Um yeah, I like it a lot. It's it's actionable, it's it's really actionable. And what I didn't hear um is you write these long white papers and put them out there and expect that people read those. Um, do they still have a place there?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yes, white papers, big uh reports. I mean, when I use the term white paper, I guess I like to think of it more as I mean, a white paper is definitely a dense piece of information. Uh, and those are definitely still meaningful uh if you have good information that somebody wants to know. And then the way to make the most of that is by uh, you know, pulling out bits and pieces and sharing that via social. You've got to give people information um up front. And I know a lot of people are uh, you know, big proponents of don't gate your content. Um, I do go back and forth on that. I think it's it's pretty meaningful to not gate most of your content. And you really should share valuable data points on social. Let people consume it. And if they want more, you know, they can come get more from that white paper and they can use that white paper as they see fit rather than uh nobody's just gonna go looking for a white paper. You have to you have to show them the information that's within. So they do have a place, but I think you have to really be giving in what you're sharing in short, very digestible bytes of information for anybody because you know, we're in a world where nobody's gonna look at anything for more than 20 seconds. Um and they only will if they really, really need to read that piece of information.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

So, what I hear here are two strategies in terms of creating content. So um one one is basically to directly focus on these short snippets. Um, so you don't do a long piece of content, you directly focus on creating something short and meaningful, like these inspirational videos, for example. The other one is you create a long form piece of content, whatever that is, it can be a white paper. And then you create snackable content pieces out of this long form, you distribute it on social, you give people the chance to download the long form. But is it that point of time when you also ask for um like contact details?

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Yeah, we might ask for contact details, especially if it's really insightful information that maybe only we have. Uh but the other way I would I would do it, and this is what we are actually, you know, going to be doing more of, is you know, the white paper is something that if they want to take the time to read it, that's great. But you know what? We're gonna offer up a chance for them to hear it from somebody and interact with somebody and ask questions in a live or an on-demand webinar. Um, so you know, if you have a really high value piece of content, uh, I think it is really meaningful to offer it up and share it via uh, you know, a webinar or webcast of some kind where they can interact and sort of take away. I know me, for instance, I I can't read anything longer than a page and and keep keep myself uh super engaged. I I learn by audibly listening to people. And so uh I think webinars are definitely a huge in the B2B space, especially something that people should definitely take advantage and do more of and offer them up on demand afterwards, of course.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Yeah, I like it a lot. Um yeah, and the word is getting shorter and shorter in marketing in terms of attention spending. I wonder where this is gonna go in the next five to ten years.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Oh gosh, I don't know. Yeah, TikTok videos. That's all we're gonna have.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

Everybody's dancing. Um I I know in our pre-interview you you also mentioned that experiences um besides content are really important. Um so what kind of experiences are also are you also focused on on creating for your target group? And what do you mean by experiences?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

So uh in this, in the space that we are in, when I talk of experiences, it's really it's it's going back to those uh meaningful, personal, more personal interactions uh and making it fun on a multitude of levels. So it is those lunch and learns where you're gonna offer you know a fun lunch and a chance to engage with different people about a subject that you might be interested in, or you know, I've seen things done which I love, like security and sneakers, and everybody who registers for the event and shows up gets a pair of Nikes. Uh that's fun and it's memorable and it's meaningful, and you're always gonna wear those Nikes and you're gonna remember.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

That is clever. That is clever.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, I I cannot take credit for coming up with that concept, but I love it. Um, it's it's a really great experience for for the audience and and something that they're not gonna forget.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

So I'm all about purity and sneakers. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

It's cool, right?

SPEAKER_04 43:47

I I wonder who and how they came up with this one because it's not, I mean, uh that's a really good one.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Really good one. I mean, I've seen all all kinds of things, obviously wine tastings and you know. when you're when you're when your state, you know, sizzle sizzle sizzling security or something and you get like a state gift card afterwards. I mean, there's so many fun things you can do. Um and and just share really good information and and give them a chance to, you know, reap some sort of benefit in return. Cause it still is something they're taking out time from their day to be at this event to learn something. And taking away knowledge, of course, is great. But you also want them to remember and and have a have a happy remember happy remember happy memory of what they did with you.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because um it's not like you what what you say is physical events are really important for you, no?

SPEAKER_01 44:42

They are they're very meaningful. Of course that doesn't come without needing social I'm sorry, not social, uh without having digital to back you up. Yeah, because clearly most research people are doing is is is digitally and they're they're kicking the tires digitally and making uh making that connection with you digitally and then um solidifying that connection face to face. So you have to have both.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

Yeah yeah and I mean it I have a pretty simple view on this whole topic. It's like of course they they get to know you first digitally because I mean it's hard to it's still possible but uh reaching out code and inviting someone to an event is is not that easy. But if they know you and you can offer value you get them to this specific event. But in the end in B2B and you in enterprise um people buy from people and depending on how important your your solution is to the company um they are sometimes even putting their carrier on the line if they get you in. So they have to trust that person in that company whom they are buying from 100% you just solidified my whole job.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

No way 100% I would never go so far.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

I have no clue or really about uh marketing in comparison to you I'm like uh but it is it's a little baby yeah yeah in the end it's human in the end it's human and I think people forget that from time to time so um what is your best working um event type so this that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

I've actually thought about this a lot I go back and forth and some people might be surprised to hear me say that I do think trade shows the right trade shows can be very very meaningful uh you know pick and choose your trade show because uh if you just show up at all of them it's going to end up not getting you the return you want but if you go to a couple you know key very well-known trade shows where you know a lot of your prospects your customers are going to show up then you use that platform to then have those smaller uh meetings uh those smaller experiences and of course you have your expo booth and everything and you can get the sponsorship and that's your awareness um you know and bringing new people into the funnel um and giving them an experience as they're getting to know you but then it is a chance to to really find those opportune moments to get the one-on-one meeting um so you know sales reps uh can use that time to you know uh have a one-on-one meeting and and you know try to close a deal or you know we have a happy hour and just invite people to that and have smaller conversations. So if you use a trade show the right way you can impact uh almost every uh stage of the funnel if you do it properly.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

So I already um got like two two um hands-on tips from you um one is get your salespeople in there um get them contact their um their prospects and ask if they're at the show probably they are if like it's a if it's a big one probably almost everyone is going to be there and and then do some like I don't know hack the hack the event so to say I don't know if you do this cocktail event on the event or if you do it in the evening after the event but I hear so many stories of of companies being big or small to even capture an event without attending and just offering like in the evening some some cool thing for food and drink or whatever. And um and they get really really good bang on the buck uh by by doing that.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Yep 100% and that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

You know you have your after hours cocktail party you invite them to a breakfast and brunch I think you know one year I I've you know seen uh you know breakfast in the morning everybody can come out have a mimosa you know have some good food we have a massage chair get a little massage before you start your day um those kinds of things the next show that sounds good experiences yeah it's it's you're giving them an experience you're taking care of them because again trade shows are exhausting you're walking all day it is so true it is so true and you're so right I have to think about how to incorporate that in the future um because it's not that expensive if you think about it you can you can book a specialist or two for a whole day and it doesn't cost that much and if they treat one person for 10 minutes on a back like a neck massage or whatever you're gonna have those people love you for the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Oh my gosh. Yeah they're gonna remember why they feel a little bit better that day.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

So out of your events that they get fresh fresh tooth they get a uh a loose back oh that's right we're just we're just gonna take care of their body but food yeah yeah what else do you do?

SPEAKER_00 49:37

We're taking care of their mind, body and soul that's that's the other side of what we do.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Yeah no it's true it's it's uh going back to basic what does the basic human need what uh what state of mind are they in at that point of time and that's that's absolutely agnostic of whatever you're selling it B2B so I like what you're what you're doing and if you condense it so so hardly as uh as we do or try to do right now in this conversation it's really going back to put yourself into the shoes of someone doing whatever you do at that point of time how can you make life more enjoyable definitely definitely completely agree that's cool I I love it um let me see I think we covered that one yeah before you mentioned something just as a as a an aside sentence about analysts and I want to deep dive a little bit more because I know you have some interesting thoughts here. So I want to ask you how important are analyst relations for you?

SPEAKER_01 50:37

It is pr it's important for this space. I think it's pretty important for most B2B companies and some B2C companies um but it's it's definitely I consider analyst relations I don't think I'm aligned on this they're really it's influencer relations and there is a huge amount of customers that have those relationships with Gartner, Forrester, IDC and that's their basis for you know making a very very impactful decision one that could potentially cost them their career. You know, we're talking about cybersecurity. So these guys you know these CISOs they have a lot of pressure to make good decisions and make sure the company I mean the the fate of the company sometimes can feel like it's on their back. Again that's a point of just understanding what they're going through. But so an analyst to them in a lot of cases and of course again a lot of their peers do this for them as well but analysts serve as you know being that point and and giving them really uh unbiased feedback on who they think is the best and why excuse me so an analyst it's really important for a business uh to have that relationship with the analyst and it's not just a let's rub elbows and you know hey we're gonna we're gonna grease the wheels it's it's um it's sharing information and getting feedback from the analyst because the analyst is also very helpful to us in helping us understand what are customers coming to them and looking for what is keep it's again it's it's another resource for us to understand where the market is headed, what people are asking for. So we get that macro intelligence from analysts. And then you know we also get the the more deeper intimate understanding of what the customer is looking for. And it's a really good place to vet your roadmap, um get those insights from the analyst and then that's what the analyst is also doing for the customer. So it is a big infinity loop of of support that everybody needs to um take seriously. It's yes it costs money and it can feel like it's it can feel like it's money that's not being well spent but it is a long tail play and one that I think most companies need to have.

SPEAKER_03 52:55

And it almost sounds like coming back to the experience I have with the consulting industry um if a CEO has to invest into a critical project um they rather go with the brand name instead of the smaller company because if something goes wrong they can tell about well but it was McKinsey. It cannot be me. Yeah so it kind of has the same feeling um if you are um like if if Gartner or or one of these um analysts basically says you're on the top three in the solution space you get this approval um and and the likelihood of these enterprise details whose whole company the only the job is on the line it sounds like a pretty stressful job now that I say it out loud um they they they I mean it definitely I would assume helps them even though they might know that you're the best solution also from their own risk perspective uh might give you um like a notch to uh like compared to others who may uh maybe not have these analysts recommendations correct it's it it's just it's a it's a good influence mechanism to have and and really tie together it it it's it's something really meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

And I've actually heard sales say that it's a very meaningful uh relationship that they want to make sure that their company has is with those analysts because a lot of deals might not close because the customer is going and getting feedback in the final stage of a deal between like you know two two two companies in the running and and they're gonna probably go with who the analyst says is better. So yeah. Yeah absolutely understandable are there are there um key tips that you have for companies who want to like deepen um their analyst relationship so that they get the most out of it definitely uh if you're not going to invest in a seat or a partnership with an analyst at at least take advantage of the fact that uh most analysts you know Gartner Forester IDC they do offer I think it's it's some it's maybe one maybe two briefings a year take advantage of those briefings just to get in front of the analyst and share what your company is doing. But again for me I think the most value is with the investment of those seats uh that you that you have with the analyst that's it's the inquiries and those discussions where we can go to the analysts and have deeper uh inquisitive sessions and get information so that we can make ourselves better for the customer. So um at least take advantage of those briefings that they offer.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

Yeah very good advice um so we covered all the topics that we wanted to cover and we are already at the end of our conversation um Carrie I have a couple of um rapid fire questions lined up are you ready?

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Sure go for it good first question um what do you do to keep body and mind fit and sharp I love that question it's funny I just have to share this so the last company that I was out on my way out the door and I have a good relationship with the CEO there still and he the one thing he said to me was you know every sea level should um every sea level should have a therapist and every sea level should do uh meditation and he couldn't be more right uh but but but I just that's a that's a it's a it's a joke but it's not a joke. Um but for me to keep my mind and body uh sharp I actually work out four times a week at 5 30 in the morning uh with a small fitness group that I've been working with for almost almost 15 years if you can believe it. And I work out yes to to keep my physical body in shape but for me it it really is the mental it's the mental support that I get. I I always have a better day when I work out in the morning. It just it makes me happier it makes me feel like I can conquer the world. So I'm a big proponent of of some physical activity as much as I can during the week. And then just more on a calming basis I try to walk my dog at least once a day if the weather's nice you know we usually walk in the evening I'll put in my headphones I'll listen to music that I really enjoy and just try to tune out the world and just that's my time. So those are kind of the two main things that I do to maintain my body and uh mind.

SPEAKER_03 57:23

And what kind of workout is it that you're doing in the morning?

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Pretty rigorous uh metabolic um aerobic you know weightlifting kind of combination just to the whole physical workout CrossFit or anything but it's um just a good boot camp.

SPEAKER_03 57:39

Yeah yeah I can relate to that I also do like almost every day a little bit of movement um or some sports in the morning also not as early as you um but still in the morning and um whenever like there are always problems coming up when you're when you're leading a uh or when you're sea level basically and um and they they somehow always become solvable or insignificant once I start moving.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Right? It changes everything.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

It is yeah I absolutely agree um do you have a favorite business book I do I I thought about this a little bit so there's two that I always kind of gravitate to and think about and this probably explains uh a lot about me but um play bigger uh and I forget who the author is but it's play bigger it's about category it's called play bigger about category disruption and category leadership and it's to me that book is just a really good read on um thinking beyond just a point product you know what is it that uh what whatever you've created innovated you know what really are you doing to um impact your customers' daily lives and it's just a really good it's just a really good read and anyone who's kind of interested in uh you know the big category disruptors of the world like Uber or um I can't think of I mean Uber's referenced a lot in the book you know but other category disruptors like Pank Steven, you know, those those people who just saw a need but took it beyond a product you know they they created a category. That's a really meaningful inspiring book. And the other one I really like is the power of story. This was actually actually introduced to me many years ago by one of my favorite mentors um and it's just a great read on you know looking at yourself differently and how you tell your story and that translates into how you might tell a company story and all of the things we've been talking about today, you know, the brand and the story behind the brand it's it's all so meaningful. You have to be able to tell stories. That's how you make those human connections. So I I love those two books.

SPEAKER_03 59:50

Great we put them into the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Thanks a lot for those um do you have a favorite podcast that you regularly listen to I actually don't um I when I listen to podcasts I kind of I search by topic and just whatever topic compels me is what I'll try to listen to and hopefully it's compelling enough to keep me for for the duration of the time but I I have to admit most podcasts that I listen to are marketing related because I'm always wanting to learn more from somebody else and what's just a different point of view that I might not be thinking of. So I do listen to a lot of marketing podcasts just not anyone in particular.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

No that's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Who should be our next podcast guest and why uh well my one of my uh long-term mentors and someone I really look up to uh her name is Anna Griffin. She's the CMO of Intercom. Uh I just she's the one that introduced me to the book The Power of Story many many years ago and she's just someone who looks at things differently and has just this level of energy and level of engagement that I just find uh inspiring. So she is definitely someone I would consider having on your podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

I try to get her on the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

One one one one thing I have to ask you now because I find this really interesting did you consciously build like a board of mentors for yourself in your career did I build I'm sorry ask that question again did you did you consciously like uh build a board of mentors like a board of advisors for yourself um um or was it like something that happened by accident I I would call it by accident but I I've definitely collected a few people along the way who I just trust more than anything to you know either give me the right advice or someone to look up to and try to emulate um Anna Griffin is one of them. Another one is uh her name is Aruna Ravi Chandran. She runs uh all of marketing at Cisco WebEx uh just these I mean they're two probably of the main my main mentors and then of course uh you know my former CEO of where I just was has you know definitely become a bit of a mentor to me as well um more on the personal side of life but uh yeah I guess I've collected a few people the the list is short but very meaningful.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

Do you have regular meetings or do you reach out from time to time irregularly?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

Just reach out from time to time. I will shoot any one of them a text message if and when I need them and they're usually all very responsive.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

Really nice. Yeah because I I have a couple of advisors now it's a mix of for the company but also for myself basically everywhere where I think someone is really good at and where I have some blanks um and and I'm not an expert in and it's I find it really really helpful just a half an hour conversation with them from time to time um helps so much to get into the right direction and solve problems quickly. So I uh I really like the concept of trying to either consciously or subconsciously get a couple of people that can really help you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

Yeah it's meaningful because you don't know no one has all the answers and if I ever did that's I don't that's not possible. It's just not possible so it's just good to hear from other people and and how they look at things. Yeah definitely and so um now you can directly address our audience is there anything um we can happy with uh Kerry gosh I uh you know what I'm gonna ask the same question I I'd love to ask anyone because uh there's no right answer and everyone has a different one it's you know I'd love to ask the audience what makes them want to engage with a brand what is it why would one thing make you want to do something over another is it just what makes people tick and what makes them want to connect?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:46

Yeah that's a good and really hard question because I why while you were asking it I was I was thinking about what would be my answer to this. And then I thought sometimes I'm not consciously knowing why I do things. It's hard to think about the subconscious decisions that you take over the course of time. Some things you do consciously so for example um we will um redo our website um and we are looking for someone who can help us so this is a conscious decision and we have a process for that. But sometimes it's not that conscious um and yeah it's a mixed interesting question yeah yeah um and where where and how can people get in touch with you best?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

I think the best place to find me is on LinkedIn. I'm on there quite often um so I'm Carrie Kelly company Cyderis uh and would love to hear from you from anyone perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:39

So if you want to reach out to Kerry um we'll put the link into the show notes as well. Thank you so much for sharing your insights it was a true pleasure to have you with us Kerry.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

Thank you so much it was so great to be here I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:54

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