Regenerative Minimum Standards for Retail Food Claims
These industry stakeholder workgroup sessions will help draf a guide for retailer buyers to use when reviewing retail food product packaging that displays regenerative claims. It is important to provide a clear decision tree based on what inputs and practices are reported by the brand.
Regenerative Minimum Standards for Retail Food Claims
Hogs and Poultry Production
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Please join us for our next stakeholder session on Minimum Regenerative Standards for retail food claims. This session will focus on regenerative hog and poultry production. Guest panelists are Reginaldo Haslett-Marroquin of Tree Range Farms, Heidi Diestel of Diestel Turkey, and Greg Gunthorp of Gunthrop Family Farms. Pics and bios below.
As our work groups sessions unfold, we now turn to how regenerative hog and poultry production is managed from start to finish. It's imperative to know feed is grown, how pastures, paddocks and coops are maintained, and how the animals' life cycles are supported. Vaccinations, antibiotics and other pharmaceutical use will be examined. Animal welfare and environmental outcomes are key.
This session on regenerative hog and poultry production builds on previous conversations about Synthetics, Soil Health and Fertility and Compost, Manure, and Cover Crops, Tillage, and Ruminant Livestock by asking what are the best practices - and worst practices - when managing pigs and chickens in a regenerative system. Our panelists are practitioners with skills honed from decades of experimentation and learning. They also bring cautionary tales of shortcuts and unpredicted outcomes.
To make sure everyone can follow along, here is a general outline of the discussion:
First, we will describe how both hogs and poultry managed in a regenerative system can benefit ecology, animals, and communities.
Second, we will ask where are the weak spots in current regenerative production practices, and what can we do to strengthen them? We will focus first on feed sources, and then on confinement practices and animal welfare.
Third, of the many hog and poultry facilities that claim regenerative outcomes, how much of this is defensible and how much is marketing puffery? What are the deal-breakers for you? Are environmental outcomes alone a sufficient measure?
Fourth, a lighting round of “thumbs up or thumbs down on” on a list of inputs and practices.
Fifth, access to processing and access to retail and institutional markets is a key tenet of regenerative agriculture. Why are both so hard to achieve, and what to do about it?
SideBar: What’s up with eggs? With special guest Steve LaQua of Mid-States Specialty Eggs.
Lastly, what is our right relationship with livestock animals, the planet, and with each other?
All session info at https://ifoamnorthamerica.org/regenerative-minimum-standards/ New podcasts released every three weeks.
Well, good morning, everyone. Welcome to our ongoing series on establishing rigorous consensus-driven standards for regenerative agriculture. I'm Christy Pettis. I almost said Christy Zimmerman, my maiden name, excuse me, Christy Pettis, the food standards manager for natural grocers. And I'm joined by my co-host today, Alan Lewis. So our goal with these work group meetings is to establish a trusted standard for retailers, brands, producers, that they can use that to match what they're doing in the field with customer expectations. And specifically, we're focusing on creating an actionable set of guardrails to identify the inputs and practices that prevent a brand from using the regenerative claim. Please remember that this initiative isn't about creating a new seal or certification. We're not trying to call out conventional producers or products. This discussion is really meant to support those who are committed to a verifiable regenerative path. So, with more about today's session, we have Alan Lewis. He is the vice president of Advocacy for Natural Grocers. He's an active member of various organizations, including iPhone North America, and he will be your host for today's series.
SPEAKER_05I need to give a shout out to our host and partner, International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements, also known as iFOM or Organics International. They're sponsoring this series on the iFoam North America website and sponsoring and supporting the success and reach of these important sessions. iFOOM Organics International is now celebrating its 50th anniversary, support global effort to produce nutritious food with health, fairness, ecology, and care using equitable regenerative methods. Please check that out. Through this voluntary cooperative initiative, we hope to facilitate a consensus among retailers about what materials and practices should preclude the use of a regenerative claim. That's not a definition of regenerative agriculture, but it is an actionable set of guardrails for retailers and shoppers to ensure transparency. Think of this negative definition that asks the question what inputs and practices might prevent the use of a regenerative claim on a retail food product. Today we're addressing the fun and complex issue of hog and poultry production and including a short segment with Steve LeCroix on egg-laying and eggs and hens. To make it easier for everyone to follow conversation, we're breaking it into some distinct parts. And at the end, we'll try to pull those parts all together. I'm reading this into the record for the podcast. We will also put it on screen for you to take a look at while we're reading. There we go. Engagement guidelines, by the way. And here's what we're we're heading into quickly. We will describe how both hogs and poultry managing a regenerative system can benefit ecology, animals, and communities. That's our first part. We're giving lots of time to each panelist to describe the system and its complexity. Second, we'll ask where the weak spots are in current regenerative practices and how we can strengthen them with a special focus on feed sources, confinement practices, animal welfare, and ecological outcomes. Next, many of the hog and poultry facilities that claim regenerative outcomes. How much of this is defensible and how much turns out to be marketing puffery? Where are the deal breakers? In our environmental outcomes alone, a sufficient measure to call something regenerative. Then we're going to have a lightning round of thumbs up or thumbs down, which drives everybody crazy, but it's fun for me. Would you do this on your farm? Fifth, processing and access to retail and institutional markets. It's a huge problem and challenge for all of our panelists and for the industry in general. We're going to deep into that and look at some solutions and some successes. We're going to take a break, kind of uh 10 minutes with Steve Lequa of Bid State Specialty Eggs. He's going to take the poultry conversation into eggs because Steve manages hundreds and hundreds of farms indirectly. He oversees them and they can create eggs to any standard that any retailer requests. So we're going to he's going to present it just how that happens. And um I'll add that Steve doesn't uh uh tap dance, he doesn't mess around. If he's what he says, you can you can take at face value. Lastly, we're gonna open it up because regeneration, not about soil, not just about animals. We're talking about a relationship to the planet and and to livestock and to each other, and we're leaving a good amount of time to uh process that information. Panelists today, Reginaldo Haslet Marakin, Salvatier Farm and Tree Range Farms. And again, I'm reading this in even though it's on screen because I need the for the podcast uh listeners to be informed on this. Rehi's approach to business development and systems change has allowed him to create space for small farmers and large businesses alike to work in alignment with the ecology of the land. He assists in developing and navigating people's journey towards successful regenerative farming operations through an indigenous framework of thought and promoting food sovereignty and environmental healing. Greg Gunthorpe, along with his wife and three kids, owns and operates pasture-based livestock operation in Northeast Indiana, primarily focused on hogs now. Their operation includes an on-farm full USDA inspected slaughter and processing plan. And if you don't know Greg, um, he's been very active in sustainable agriculture in the movement in the United States. If there's an event without Greg, just cancel it because who cares? Heidi Deistl. Hey Heidi, settle a debate here. How do we say your last name?
SPEAKER_01Deestel does not follow the English language.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Heidi Distel, Distel Family Ranch. Heidi Distull grew up alongside her mom, Joan Diesdull, working on the ranch, helping with customer service and getting meat lovers excited about the bold taste of turkey at demos and trade shows across the country. Her passion is to help people eat better with pure, nourishing whole foods. And she's intimately involved in the operating operation of the uh of Dijkstall Ranch. Steve Lacroix is going to step in and talk about eggs. Uh, Steve's with Midstate Specialty Eggs, which is an employee-owned and dedicated to sustainable, responsible practices. It works with more than 750 family farms. Steve is an expert on various commercial egg production systems, including organic and regenerative. He has helped the transition of Lang Hen Farms to organic and regenerative operations across the Midwest. So, Greg, you are up, and I'm giving you plenty of time to talk about your passion, your operation, and how you have adapted to markets and other constraints, but continue to raise uh pigs and hogs in uh the most regenerative way possible. So I'm gonna hand it off to you.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Alan. Uh Greg Gunthorpe, Gunthorpe Farms uh in northern Indiana. Uh it's a pleasure to be here. Uh good morning or good afternoon, depending on which time zone you're in. Uh, we have a uh family farm, pasture-based operation in uh northeast Indiana. We raise uh pigs on pasture, uh same as my family has raised pigs for at least four generations. And then we also have a uh grass-fed lamb operation. We have a USDA-inspected processing plan on the farm, and our product is uh sent out uh within our region and also throughout the country, uh, primarily to uh upscale food service and online. We wholesale to some online brands uh that ship product uh internet fulfillment to people's doors. Uh here today to talk about uh pasture pig production and uh how our operation works on on the farm. Uh we have about 400 sows on the farm uh outside year-round, uh on uh grass this time of year, in the woods in the winter. Um the our gestating sows, so the breeding uh sows without little pigs, uh rotationally grazed across the farm during the growing season. Uh on uh one to three day moves, uh some supplemental feed uh in addition to that. Uh I'm sure that we'll talk about today that uh pigs are not ruminants. Uh our lambs on the farm and our sheep on the farm, uh never any grain, uh, but our pigs do get some grain. Our lactating or our um sows uh with baby pigs uh during the growing season. Uh we like to call it uh drift farrowing. Uh they're moved every uh three to seven days, except when they have uh the youngest of newborns, uh, but they're moved at least uh weekly. Uh they're um they ferrow in uh little steel quantits. Uh those huts are moved forward, their feeders moved forward, their waters moved forward, uh rotationally grazed with uh polywire. Uh they are um kept on the um sow for uh six to nine weeks before they are weaned, um, and then uh they are moved off to um uh finishing our market hog pastures. Uh we consolidate uh six weeks worth of pigs on the farm into market hog pens. Uh we wean every three weeks. Uh we consolidate two of those weanings. Uh so we typically have uh four or five groups of market hogs on the farm. Uh we're uh strict followers of all-in, all-out production. So those uh groups of pigs are never nose to nose, never uh fence to fence uh with uh um any of the other uh market hogs or any other classes of pigs uh because we are an antibiotic free farm. Uh we um feed uh non-GMO feeds. Uh I would consider it a traditional uh Midwest uh um hog diet, uh corn, soybeans, but it is non-GMO, uh, and then a simple uh vitamin and mineral mixture. Um looking forward to the discussion today. Uh Alan mentioned I think that uh feed is one of the big components uh that we have to talk about when it comes to uh pork and poultry. Uh I also believe that uh movement, uh animal welfare, animal instincts, um, independence of the farmer are some topics that we need to discuss. So thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_05Very well done. Um, Reggie, you're well along in mastering the art and skill of regenerative poultry production. Your system also reflects and encourages natural flock behavior, as kind of Greg just mentioned with hogs and other birds. Please describe a day in the life of a tree-range chicken and tell us how your operation works within the natural systems, including we lowly humans.
SPEAKER_02Sounds good. Thanks, uh Alan. But before I do that, there is always something about centering, especially when we are talking about regeneration. And there's something we tend to do in all the meetings, and that's going straight to business. There's nothing wrong with that, but we are here to talk about uh baseline regenerative standards, and the baseline for us has nothing to do with chickens, just to be clear. The life of a chicken is defined not by practices that we decided, not by capricious behaviors or market-driven ideas or any of that stuff. I come from a place where to us, regeneration is a natural process of the earth itself. A place where we are defined by our identity. And if that identity is wrong, we're gonna do things wrong. And that identity to me is simply that we are indigenous creatures to the planet. Our roots are as go as far back as the origin of life itself. That identity as indigenous creatures, all of us are indigenous to this planet. Nobody is not. So are the chickens and the pigs and the worms and the grasshoppers and the plants, every species is indigenous to the planet. We all share that identity, and when we share that identity, then we get to see the world in a different way. And so, on the basis of that origin of thought and being and knowing, learning, sharing, and especially living, is where regenerative outcomes will materialize. When we live and behave and learn and know and relate from the perspective of a true original identity that gives us that origin and that indigenous intellect that enlightens the other 97% of our intellect that is blocked and dark, it's like dark martyr to us, because we are so focused on extraction and production that we see, whether it's a chicken or a pig or a carrot, we see as product. There is no such a thing. There are only expressions of energy, energy that has always been flowing on the planet from the beginning and it will outlast us. Those expressions of energy is what we call food. When we are able to think that way, then we, in our case, came into this space, and after a lot and a lot of exploration as an immigrant in this country, as a farmer, as an agronomist, and all that, I wanted to find my place. That story is bound to that indigenous identity as an expression of the energy of the planet. And because of that binding and that commitment and that identity, and having picked chicken at the end of a very long process of figuring out how do I enter this scape, this landscape, so-called food and agriculture in the United States, and do it with the level of integrity, transparency, and commitment that reflects that true ancestral identity. That is how we encounter the chicken or the chicken encounter us. But we didn't come into this space to do chickens. Once we knew we were going to do that, then it was our duty, my duty, as a person who lives according to those regenerative, uh lives according to standards that most reflect that original blueprint that we're talking about and that identity. Then it gives us a blueprint for how to approach this specific area. And that is when we got to define what the life of a chicken looks like. To us, there are these five or six fundamental tenets that are non-negotiable. The first thing is habitat. And for us, if we're going to eat animals, we must do so with a level of integrity based on restoring that livestock to its best modern expression of its ancestral habitat, whether it's bison, whether it's poultry, turkey, pigs, or whatever it is. For us, we start by understanding that chicken, the chicken is a jungle fowl. That gives us a whole blueprint from where to design. I'm not saying that there aren't many other options for how to do poultry, but according to our foundation and our ancestral understanding of life, that those were two fundamental things we have to consider habitat. Second thing, you talked about grains. Well, grains, most livestock evolved without grains, by the way. Poultry has been close to grains for as long as it has existed, especially sprouted grains. Uh, and so for us, it was critical to consider the whole supply chain all the way back to how grains are grown. And locally for us, because of that ancestral blueprint of the poultry, we find that we can grow most of the feed that the chickens need holistically, meaning all of the diet grown together. The Europeans have developed plenty of practices on how to integrate multiple grains in single plantations and can be machine harvested and all of those other things, right? So that's critical. Animal welfare, again, is critical, but the habitat and the source of food is defines the animal welfare. And to us, mortality, healthy animals and then the natural habitat are two fundamental components of measuring animal welfare, the outcomes of that being low mortality and so on. Fray trade practices, back to Greg's point. If practices are unfrayed, unfair, nothing is regenerative if somebody is exploited. You can have a regenerative, any of the regenerative labels right now, probably except for ROC. And you could be exploiting your neighbor and extracting from the from them or from immigrants, and you can still put a regenerative label on your product. And that is simply not okay from an ethical standpoint. So fatal practice is central. Biodiversity, great, huge piece of uh not only the forage mixes, because again, chickens are foragers. They're not necessarily, they don't eat grasses necessarily, although they they would eat anything, of course. But but if you if you adapt to their natural behaviors, these mixes of foragers, we are micro-tuning all of that to the evolution and the daily needs, especially week after week, of the poultry. And then evidence-based outcomes, which is nutrient integrity, meaning density and diversity, the farmers' net income, and ownership control, and governance of the system as a whole. As we do that, yes, we raise poultry in its natural habitat, as the best expression of it as we can find. And for us, uh perennial crops such as hazelnuts and elderberries, all nuts, pretty much, although elderberries and mulberries, those two fruits actually do really well with poultry because of the high demand for uh nitrogen. And um, chickens naturally go back to the very same spot where they came every day. And so that homing mechanism, we we um, and then the protection at night, we deal with it with secure shelters and uh so on. But during the day, they are 100% rotating within the spaces where they are naturally evolved. The best version that we can find on every ecology we are operated on, from Ecuador to Colombia to Mexico, Guatemala, and Minnesota, where we are based. A chicken goes out in the morning, comes back at night and into their shelter. The food and water is outdoors under the trees with a diversity of forages according to their ages and according to their preferences, which is primarily high protein, low fiber forages. And we only raise uh heritage breeds, meaning, or not complete heritage breeds, but the closest version to heritage breeds, meaning slow growth, no less than 65 to 70 days, as those are critical fundamentations of the poultry behaving uh in a natural environment. Um, the industrial breed uh pretty much doesn't respond well to that. Um I mean, you can make an animal do almost anything you want, but bottom line is we are following the chicken as opposed to imposing on the chicken. And that's fundamentally um what you have. The poster on the bottom has uh a little picture of hazelnuts and chickens in the middle. And you have it.
SPEAKER_05Perfect timing. Thank you, Rehi. As usual. And thanks for the pause. I really appreciate that. And the reflection. Sometimes I'm not the person who can pull that off, but you always are. So we love you for that. Heidi Distal, you operate a split operation that includes some certified organic production. And like Rehi, you aggregate animals from various farms under your brand. Please describe the system you use for your best regenerative and organic turkeys and how you're able to mimic natural habitats while improving those ecological outcomes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, thanks for so much for having me today. And I think that's a great intro. It's going to be difficult to follow that, Reggie, from your standpoint. I think that was a really beautiful way to establish kind of the fundamentals of what we're trying to accomplish here. You know, I'm I'm fourth generation in our business. Um, grew up alongside my parents. My brother Jason is intimately involved in the business, as is my husband, Jared. And, you know, for us, it really stems regenerative is not necessarily a new concept, right? This is this is a very fundamental concept to food and agriculture, um, which ultimately rolls up into our human health. Um, so for us, you know, regenerative agriculture and the basis of it is something that has always been within our scope of conversation around our dinner table, in the sense of how are we growing, what is our impact, how are the birds doing, thriving in any environment, whether that's organic, nonbiotic sever, regenerative. I think it's really incredible if we look back through, you know, the landscape of farm animal agriculture and we look at where we had been. My grandfather passed away last year. He was 99 years old. And you look at his generation of food, and then you fast forward all the way to our generation of food and food production, and it's drastically different, uh, even though we're in the same country and we're, I'm literally sitting on the same ranch uh that my grandfather farmed. So, you know, I think that we have to know our heritage and we have to understand where we've been to understand where we're headed and where we're going. This is very, very important. Um, when we look at regenerative, you know, prior to the terminology and prior to the certifications, we are certified, regenified. Um, we had a pasture raised program where we, you know, had exclusive outdoor access once the birds were of age and they were only exclusively outside on pasture, uh, rotationally grazed. You know, we've evolved from that discussion while the birds are still outside, rotationally grazed with ruminant animals uh in our current program. We really have to consider this feed, right? Monogastrics and the footprint we can have on where the feed comes from and the nutrient density of that feed and the quality of the feed, uh, the land that it impacts, but also what it gives to the animals and the health and the vitality of the animals. Uh, I think, you know, we need to look at the processing of the products, right? We need to identify if our processing is overly processed, if we are, uh there's, you know, ways in which we can benefit and maintain the integrity of the bird and the meat that we are producing. So we keep that wholesomeness and we maintain the highest nutrient density possible within the animal to the consumer. Um, of course, none of this is possible if we don't have a market. And I think that this is really key. We have to find a way to stair step our practices uh that is fundamentally going to support market conditions so that consumers can purchase the products, can afford the products, and we can continue to optimize and we can continue to learn and grow and find ways to, like Reggie said, work homogenously, right, within our environments, supporting all facets of what makes the regenerative theory, you know, become an actual practice and become something that's very realistic. Um yeah, I mean, I I could add a lot more about our brand and our philosophies, but I think that does it from our perspective. Uh, we have a lot of great conversation to be had today. We have a lot of questions that I think will get into the nitty-gritty of um kind of you know what we're doing and how we're doing things. But at the basis of it all, you know, this is uh a very hot topic within our industry. Um there are you know folks doing it really well, and there are some folks that are utilizing this conversation with a very minimal effort or one or two um one or two practices per se, right? So, you know, I think this conversation is hopefully one where we can explore a lot of different ideas, make sure we really understand the pain points of what we're trying to accomplish, and ultimately, you know, have all boats rise together. You know, diesel is one brand within the country that can support and grow uh and evolve the discussion, but we need many others to continue this initiative and have access to real nutrient-dense food that is meaningful. So I think it's really lovely that you guys have taken the time to put this panel together and that we have the opportunity to speak like this within the industry. It's very unique and it's uh gonna be a great conversation.
SPEAKER_05Thank you, Heidi. Yeah, it's a two-year-long conversation. I'm really glad you guys are here. Thank you. This is a really, really powerful panel. Thanks for all of you with uh those cogent remarks. Um, this second part, all of you have mentioned feed, and this is not a gotcha panel or a gotcha initiative, but all of us are struggling with it. Just a simple idea that we'd like all of the feed to be certified regenerative grown with environmental outcomes and no pesticides or GMOs or bad tillage practices or whatever. And uh again, I I just want to hear how you each of you um and probably well, let's go in the same order. I'll start with Greg, but how each of you uh envision the feed challenge and chime in whether you think that is surmountable or whether it's a fake challenge, whether the regenerator practices on a confinement, meaning uh uh even a pastured, but confined animals require certain leeway and leverage either permanently or from time to time. Hope that's clear enough, Greg. Do you want to jump in and your thoughts?
SPEAKER_04Yep. I'm I'm gonna make one comment first, though. Uh just putting this out here. I believe a regenerative label for uh poultry and for pigs, uh, that uh the correct classes should be exclusively outdoors. Uh so I don't think uh confinement and regenerative fit together, in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. Uh but back to feed. Uh I um I think that uh feed is one of the um biggest topics when it comes to uh regenerative uh pork and poultry. And as I mentioned before, you know, we all obviously know uh pigs and poultry are not ruminant animals. Uh so it's uh often inappropriate to um, you know, put them as uh grass-fed animals. Uh, you know, we have our sows at time, our grass-fed animals don't get any grain, but you know, a gestating sow that doesn't have babies nursing on her can meet all of our nutrition requirements on a really good pasture. Almost no classes of uh pork and poultry can meet all of their nutritional requirements by grass alone. They can with uh the proper planning, uh, you know, as Reggie shows, uh, but they can't with just uh typical uh cool season or warm season pastures. Um so I think that's the elephant in the room. And I think that uh non-GMO, you know, we feed non-GMO grains. I don't think that's enough for uh to be regenerative. And I'm sure you guys are having the discussions about what regenerative crops are, but I don't think that uh just non-GMO or just eliminating pesticides, or for that matter, uh just being certified organic. I don't think uh importing uh organic grains from another country uh or even organic grains grown here with extensive tillage are a regenerative. Uh in my mind, uh it would be something like 60-inch corn uh with uh cover crops in between it. Uh so it was something that could be done long term and still build soil health. Uh so I think, as I mentioned, it's the elephant in the room. And I think that uh um regenerative uh pork and poultry should include uh regenerative feeds and should not be confinement systems.
SPEAKER_05Nice. Well well said. Thanks for rising to the occasion there on that difficult issue. I actually want to jump to Heidi uh before we go to Reghi. Heidi, what are what are your thoughts and how does Diesel approach this whole issue as you mentioned generationally looking towards the future?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, my grandfather put in a feed mill in you know the 50s, right, to to manage the quality of the feed and to ensure that, you know, the nutrient density of the feed, the quality of the feed was there. Uh, I think it's no different than today. We were the first in the country to source regenerative third-party certified feed. My brother Jason went out to the corn um farmer, met him, learned a tremendous amount about crop farming in a regenerative system. Um, I think there's plenty of feed out there. I think that there's probably, from when what I've seen, more feed accessible than is being utilized. But listen, in poultry, that's one of the largest input costs, right? So, I mean, if you want to talk about taking a product that is barely making its retail price point at shelf and then putting regenerative feed into that network, um, having space and capacity in your mill to hold it separate and keep that transparency, um, that's that's very, very challenging. Now we did it and we broke all the infrastructure of how feed works in this country to do it. It was a massive undertaking. It was probably more painful than what we necessarily anticipated doing, but we did it. And not only did we do it um with complete transparency, okay, there's no mass balancing here, right? Like this is this is silly. Let's have actual practices that are very much um, you know, tied to the products and programs. Um, but the thing that we've learned so much is by seeing the quality of the corn that's coming into the mill, the growth rates, which we have a very slow growth rate for our birds, but the growth rate for our birds and the quality of the birds, their feathering. I mean, it was it, it's all these incremental choices that yield very incremental and meaningful results for the birds, their health, their vitality, and then essentially um the nutrient density. So then we had the meat studied at the city of Utah. We had the corn looked at, we had, you know, residues looked at um on the corn and the nutrient density of the regenerative programming, which by the way, we had organic and NAE also tested. And the regenerative birds were performing the best, right? But if we look at how their feed is being sourced and fed, it's closer to harvest, there's less travel time, right? It's a higher quality feed. And so, of course, the bird is going to perform better. Now, you know, we all think about this in terms of the animal, and that is very, very important. Um, but then, you know, at the end of the day, we are a company in farm animal agriculture selling our products to humans for consumption, for their fuel, and for the benefit of their health and well-being. And so, you know, that's really where this is being tied together, also, right? In the sense that we're producing a higher quality product that is truly more nutrient dense because of all of the practices layered in there, feed massive, a massive component of that, to then have a product that truly is impacting human health in a very positive way.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. I think everyone's having the same thought I am. It's like I wish we took care of our school kids uh as well as we take care of our poultry.
SPEAKER_01Don't get me started on school lunches.
SPEAKER_05Right. School lunches.
SPEAKER_01That's a we need a whole other panel.
SPEAKER_05We'll we'll get there. 2027 is not far away. Um, Reggie, your experience with sourcing poultry feed, and I think you've got some long-term viable ideas that that that might close this loop here. So I'll hand it off to you. Take your time.
SPEAKER_02Well, the good thing is that poultry is really the entry point to changing the world in terms of food systems. Once we figure out poultry, everything else is downhill. That's the way we thought about it from the start. And that's one of the reasons we picked poultry from a social standpoint, it's the most engaged species on the planet. From an ecological perspective, it is the most adaptable. You really got to be a bad farmer to destroy the farm land, to destroy the land with chickens or turkey, even. But you can do it very easily with chicken, with uh pigs or or cows if you are not really well-versed, right? So, but back to your question about uh grains. The thing about food versus feed or fill is that food, by definition, is the source of nutrition and durability to regenerate your organs and your molecules from muscles all the way through. And if there is no integrity on that, meaning a wide range of nutrients, micronutrients, especially, you are going to not regenerate. Now, you said something about I wish we took care of our children the way we take care of our chickens and pigs. Um I wish I had been taken care of as a child the way I take care of my chickens. I'm not talking about someone else anymore. I was I was born and I grew up in extreme poverty in Guatemala, and we lived on dirt floors and slabs for walls and thin roofs and baked uh in this under those roofs, and and it was miserable from that standpoint, but it was heaven from the food perspective. The only reason I'm here and I got a brain and all of these things is because as a child I ate real food, meaning I was nourished physically and mentally, especially spiritually. That spiritual nourishment, you may think I'm going out on a limb, but every creature on this planet also has a spirit. If there is such a thing as happy chickens, we got them. And Heidi, you got the happy turkey, and Greg, you got the happy pigs, your pigs are in heaven. So where does that happiness come from? From being, from being in a space and being nourished physically, mentally, and spiritually. Whether you are a livestock or a person, I don't see why we tend to differentiate that. It just boggles my mind and my upbringing and my understanding of life that we differentiate those things. And so now we got groups paying more attention to chickens and pets and that than children. Yes, absolutely a major issue of uh spiritual, intellectual poverty that we gotta deal with. But that's another that's for another podcast. Um, so back to the nutrition poultry is actually easier because in the case of poultry, they evolved eating grains, and so one of the things we have found out is that we can grow mixes of grains in a way that can be used can be done in the land using conventional equipment. Now, conventional grain, we're not going to do because one of the things we found out early on was that even non-GMO uh feed that was not certified organic gave us a much lower uh quality of the output than the organic trials that we did. So even though we were not certified organic back then, we still switched 100% to organic feed because of testing that General Mills did on our poultry, and we found out that it was superior just by having organic feed, and that had to do with nutrition in that food. And even though, yes, tillage and all of that is a problem, at least it was better than conventional or non-GMR. Okay, so because of the integrity issue with our system, we went in that direction, even if it was more expensive, more challenging to market, and so on. Now there is something that has to be understood in the context of regeneration, and that's a farm or a product. We don't and we don't think of a farm or a product as being regenerative. Ecosystems regenerate because regeneration is a biophysical and chemical outcome, not a product-specific outcome. So biodiversity and all those things regenerate at an ecosystem level and not at a farm level, even though the farm is part of that ecosystem, right? Of course. So for us, this this question of grain has been a nagging thing from the beginning. And at this point, we have a blueprint where it allows us to start testing grain mixes between seven and ten grain mixes, and up to seven we can grow together in a field, meaning we can pre-mix the poultry feed before we plant it in the field, grow it that way. When he comes out, if he has weed seeds or anything like that, it's actually an advantage because we are not selling that grain for some sort of processor that needs purity and things like that, like we are obsessed with. And the chickens get more nutrition. If there is some weeds, as we know, weeds are way more effective at scavenging for nutrients and microelements than the plants that we want to grow. Technically, we are debunking that idea that we want to grow everything that doesn't want to grow, and we are killing everything that wants to grow. Well, flipping that is critical for achieving these outcomes in the grain side. And so we are writing up and testing now a regenerative grain standard that would allow us to get to that point. And it is possible in in poultry. And uh, you know, Greg, I believe is possible for pork as well. And so that's the way we have to go. If we came into this space to do a regenerative system, let's not repeat the mistakes of the conventional system. What's the point of moving away from it if we're going to just repeat the same issues?
SPEAKER_05Thank you, Rehi. Um, I I put up a page there on the screen. Uh and I'm not into bashing or fear-mongering, but I visited this big, big, big confinement poultry operation um out in Iowa a few months ago. That room on the bottom that looks like NASA, that's their grain supply control center. And they are loading a truck every eight or nine minutes. They're servicing dozens of farms. The little yellow dots on the bottom are all of these uh confinement facilities. That overhead picture is a single sow farm that they are uh growing mostly GMO uh soy and corn for um across Iowa. Massive storage mixing uh supplementation is done in a central facility, and then these trucks are just screaming down the back roads for just in time delivery. Um, that's probably not regenerative. I say that tongue in cheek, but that is how um hogs are fed these days, and so it's really helpful to hear from everybody else that there are uh smaller scale, human-focused, ecologically community-focused uh solutions on that. Um, but I don't know. Yeah, go ahead. Each of you want to have a last thought. Go ahead, Ray.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just wanted to correct something. What we are actually talking about, everything we're doing is being measured against a scale. And that scale is the total poultry production for the United States, 100%. We always ask the question if we had an opportunity, if the markets change, if the government would change policies and everything to support regenerative, could we supply 100% of the US chicken and eggs? And if the answer is no, then our system probably isn't going to be good enough. But if the answer is yes, what are the numbers? Then we have the numbers to show. And in this case, Just to give you an idea, you know, the um the total production in this country, we got about 879 million acres of land in agriculture, right? Well, Minnesota and Iowa alone have around 55.4 million acres. Uh, it will take uh all of the land in Minnesota and Iowa to supply the 83.7 or so, I mean 349 um uh million people that consume around 20 chickens per capita in this country, it will take about all the land in Minnesota and Iowa. But think of it in the context of the Midwest, we are talking about 12 states that produce so much grain, 400 million acres, is really a lot. It's for us to go into this space, if we think of a pivoting point, like 5% of the market, which is already massive in terms of chicken, is barely 7% of the total land in Minnesota and Iowa alone. And because we would be doing grains under a regenerative standard, alley cropping, multiple grains, multiple rotations, perennial living cover, all of those things. And hazelnuts being central to our poultry system because hazelnuts are so nitrogen hungry that they actually are in perfect alignment with the poultry manure production. We would deploy at 5% of the total land in the Midwest, which is barely, you know, in this case, around 5 million acres. We're looking at deploying also the production of around 781 million pounds of hazelnuts, in-shell hazelnuts. That's 4,572 times, five 4,572 times more hazelnuts than the 171,000 pounds that the total production of the US, mostly in Oregon, happens right now. It would redefine agriculture in the United States at 5%. I mean, if you're going to talk about scale, we're not talking about penis. This is real systems change. We're talking about, and that's, I think it comes up when we start talking about chickens. I mean, a lot of people laugh at us because we come in and saying that we can change the world with chickens. Well, we actually mean it. It is real, and we got the numbers to back it up and the evidence for many years and the science and technology, and I believe the entrepreneurial capacity to do it.
SPEAKER_05So we're going to move to a different focus here, and I'm going to ask Greg to chime in first. But I use the word confinement. Hog confinement are these big, covered, enclosed barns, uh, those animals uh maybe see the sun once in their lifetime, and that's when they're headed to slaughter. Slight overstatement. But um, when you have a group of hogs on land and you've contained them with uh fences, they're under the forest, they're on fields, on pasture. Um just talk about that system, what it does to the land, the animals, the soil. Um there's really good outcomes, but it's so different than a hog confinement that I showed you a little bit ago. Um just delve into that, how you manage all of that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, sure. It's uh it's completely different for the animal, it's completely different for the person taking care of them, it's completely different for the environment, and it's completely different for the community. Uh, the um I think most people, if they stop and think about it, if they've seen pictures or videos of pigs out on pasture, and I challenge you to follow me on X, follow my son on Instagram or Facebook. Uh, you can see the pictures of our pigs, and then compare those to pictures of pigs that are in gestation crates or in confinement. I think those pigs look clinically depressed. Uh, our pigs don't. Our pigs are, you can just see it in their eyes, they're happy. Um, uh, same with the people. Uh, the people that get to work outside along pigs and take care of pigs. Uh, there's just a certain amount of pride. Uh, there's a certain amount of uh joy in seeing uh pigs that are uh out where they belong, taken care of. Uh, and there's just not that to work inside of a um confinement uh hog building uh for one's whole life. Uh the um uh community, um, I think this one we can't uh understate. Uh when you have independent family farms uh that raise the livestock and poultry and the um uh food for this country, uh you have the potential to have vibrant rural communities. And we've economically gutted rural America with this industrial food supply. It has hidden costs at every single step of the process, you know. And then when you talk about environment, uh I'll be the first one to acknowledge if pigs outside, and Reggie alluded to it, uh pigs outside, um, if not properly managed, uh, can either uh you know they can be the best thing on a farm or they can be uh they can cause uh environmental damage. Pigs need movement, uh they need to be outside, uh they need to be stocked properly, and they need proper management. And when that's done, that is the ideal way to raise a pig.
SPEAKER_05Hey, Heidi, well, um well, why don't you jump in? But real quick, um again, I kind of can't uh stop myself from showing you these, uh uh just uh an idea of what a confinement actually looks like. So we're just gonna put this up for a second. But this is that same facility I visited, um, a testing facility. Those are sows in the middle picture. Uh never outdoors. They're on slats, all the manure is collected. We'll talk about that later. Um slightly different. And yet, a place like this is so proud of their technical prowess, their low cost, their low mortality rate, uh, the the the animal health, all of this. And it's um it's gonna be a struggle to undo that system, I guess is is the way to put it. But um, how do you talk about your your uh systems for housing and taking care of uh the turkeys on your farm?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. I mean, first and foremost, I think we have to pause there with your imagery. You know, humans will go to no uh to no end to make things more convenient and easy for themselves, right? If there's a shortcut, us humans like to take it. And I think that's what we're seeing, right? Like very large farm animal agriculture isn't going away. Yet if you look at the attrition rate of farmers, there's absolutely nothing for the next generation to come back to. We're not providing um a market that is enticing to a young, um, eager, you know, potential farmer who might want to actually have a piece of property or land and farm animals and do that kind of work every single day. So, you know, we're very passionate about the feed, not just for regenerative, but for the sake of all feed that we're feeding any program, right? Regenerative is one of our programs. We have no noviotics ever, the original diesel turkey, which by the way, people thought we were crazy in the early 90s for producing because it was so different. Um, you know, I think that we have such a huge footprint with feed that it shouldn't be something that we just gloss over and just say, oh, it's just regenerative feed. Like let's genuinely scale this so that it can impact other programs. Um, that's how meaningful the feed component is. Um to look specifically at our programming for regenerative, we differ a bit from Greg's exclusively outdoors perspective, in the sense that um we believe indoor and outdoor access is very reasonable for our turkeys. Um, you know, we have a different approach with our barns in the sense that if you stood in them, it's like a screened-in porch. It is not uh a fully sided uh concrete floored barn. And it's very important that the birds have access out onto the range, out into the paddocks. Um, but between predator pressure and also inclement weather, you know, we are farm animal agriculture. We have to get these birds in and through the system, the system that we are creating and to the market in a format in which uh maintains our costs and keeps us economically viable. So, you know, there are things that we have to consider. Um, again, we did an exclusively outdoor program for a decade on pasture-raised turkeys before regenerative was really a discussion and a uh kind of communicated on the package this way. And, you know, we learned a lot from that program. And I am not advocating that regenerative not have significant access outside and to pasture and to paddocks. But I don't necessarily believe for poultry, for turkeys, chickens specifically, exclusive, the context of it, only outside, ever outside, is necessarily required or at times of benefit, uh, depending upon how much land you have and how much you're actually working the property that you have. Now we're in the foothills, we are not in a flat area. So we have trees, we have rolling hills. Um, it is not easy for us to, you know, have uh, let's say, a mobile coupe that is exclusively moving the animals in and around, you know, our territory. So we have a model in which the birds have, you know, large range access out into the paddocks. There's only a certain number of farms on every ranch that we are, you know, integrating into the system. They have to work within the system. Uh, most of our program has access outside. Um, and you know, it triples the uh amount of square footage for the animal. But um, you know, that indoor-outdoor component, that's where we stand on things, and we think that that is very fair.
SPEAKER_05So, Reghi, stand by for a second. But Greg, you had a huge turkey operation that um no longer central to your farm. But why don't you go ahead um and reply? You're muted, by the way, but I know you wanted to add something to that conversation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the um uh I I personally don't have anything against, I guess, per se, of uh poultry raised um in uh barns with outside access, but I just personally do not believe at all that it fits in the regenerative, and I don't think it's against the turkey production. I think it's against the soil health uh aspect. Uh I do not think that there's any way that you can have a central uh barn and have uh poultry get, or pigs for that matter, get to enough acres uh in which you can have proper rotation. And I think that stocking density, uh, proper rotation, proper rest, uh, and I guess I didn't uh define that earlier, but that's what I mean by movement. And yes, it's a hell of a lot more work. Uh in one way, our operation was large, in one way, our turkey operation was very, very small. The most we ever did was 14,000 a year, but they were on pasture and they were on uh one to three day moves. And I think that that is a requirement in my mind for regenerative. Uh and like I said, I don't think it's because of the turkey. I think it's because of the soil health aspect. Uh, movement with animals is regenerative, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_05So, Rehi, um, you're muted, by the way, but that's a perfect handoff to you because this is about scale in terms of the animals' genetics and behavior. So just uh describe why you decided on those smaller flocks and the houses and the access that your birds have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we actually did not decide, it was the chickens who decided. Um, for two years in a row, I raised flock after flock, and we did not put fences or anything. We just uh had the barns and we allowed them to full range. And we would move the feed as a way to loot them farther and farther, and there was a point when he broke down. Same, we did the same with densities to Greg's point. Absolutely, stacking density, rotation, and rotation specific to species. So, for example, we learned very quickly that egg layers are absolutely like a completely different species compared to broilers. Uh, broilers, even the slow growth broilers that we were raising, and back then we were growing even in slower growth broilers that we would harvest in at 80 and 85 days today. And I think um what's um you know, the um well, we are raising um, I think Mark Pick Mark Pittman is on the call, but uh, we are raising pioneer breed, which is the fastest growing breed we have raised, and it can mature, the males can mature up to 65 days, but that's the slowest, the fastest breed we are growing right now. All of that has to do with all of these things we're talking about. It isn't like, okay, well, we got to figure it out, and this is what you do, and these are many days, and so on. Because when you are dealing with natural conditions, everything changes, whether you get precipitation, which you are in, what sun exposure, you know, photo period, uh, species that forages that grow in your region, all of that is going to define stocking density, the the rate of rotations, and it's the species you're gonna put in. So basically, we can we can perfect the systems according to those those the specific ecological blueprints we got the opportunity to experience. And that I would say is central to scalability, that we don't lose track of that. But it's it comes down to this is this is not a cookie cutter kind of thing. And anybody who thinks that's what it is, has got it wrong. And yes, I mean, Greg, to your point about ranging animals. I mean, if an animal's historical geo-evolutionary process is to range, that's what we should look for. And we should adapt our processes and our practices to the behavior, the ancestral behavior of the animal. And yes, to the extent that that's impossible. We should always find ways, we will always find ways, but we should always put the standard, like the minimum standard should be higher as opposed to lower. That's my point on that. That's why I'm fine with everything that people are doing, just as long as we don't call it done and we don't call it finished. That's really the critical. Heidi, quick response.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I would second that, right? Like we need we need to ensure that the pendulum is always moving forward. But I mean, we have had tremendous success in our program with this access to the different paddocks, rotationally grazing the birds and ruminants throughout the paddocks. The birds are getting far out into the range. We're enticing them with, you know, natural cover of oak trees and additional like berries and things that you know are native to our territory. So, you know, we have had tremendous success with that.
SPEAKER_05Great. Thanks. Hey, um, we're uh I'm very happy with the conversation and giving you all so much time to walk through these complex things. Um, I'm gonna speed this up a little bit. We're gonna move into the lightning round here. I'm gonna reduce that to a couple of questions, and then we'll I think we'll break to hear about eggs from Steve Lacroix. Then we're gonna come back to the fun part of access to processing and retail markets, something that Greg loves to talk about. Um uh but on the lightning round, manure. Um, none of you all are collecting mountains of uh manure or lagoons of manure and spraying it or spreading it brack on cropland. Is that more or less true? Heidi, hear it?
SPEAKER_01Uh we we have a full-fledged composting program, yes, where we collect all of our organic waste and are generating an incredibly nutrient-dense um soil out of it.
SPEAKER_05And then properly reapplying it. Um I'm referring to the kind of horrendous practices on in the hog confinements that are uh really problematic. Rehi, you're not collecting manure, the land is.
SPEAKER_02No, but chickens mostly cook when they're asleep, uh no, during the night. And so I think it's the same for old old poultry. And um, so the manure in the fields so far, 17 years, fully documented, scientifically verified, no excess nutrients, uh, because of the perennials. The barn, the burn manure is like it's such a tiny percentage of the amount of fertilizer that we need for the grains and everything else that forget it. There's no end to to how much we will do it's it's always balances out. In fact, right now we have an imbalance, meaning we don't have enough manure coming out of the system.
SPEAKER_05Greg, is this one of your points of pride that you're getting those animals on pasture and that's where they end up deflating?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, since uh we don't raise poultry anymore and don't have a brood or uh barn to start uh chicks and turkeys and ducks, we don't even haul manure. I don't know the last time we hooked the manure spread around, we all use it.
SPEAKER_05So the other lightning round here is just um the bioengineering problem. The the pigs have been fully bioengineered by the some uh the pig improvement corporation, I kid you not, PIC. Um, and they're waiting to launch the bioengineered pigs into the hog confinements until people like all of us on this call are comfortable with the idea. The the reason they're bioengineering is the pigs aren't doing well in those confinements. They're getting a lot of lung infections for one thing, but that's just the beginning of what they will do to animals to adapt to our needs as opposed to the way Reddy Rehi put it. We don't choose, the animals choose how how they want to live. Um lightning round, anybody uh uh supporting bioengineering animals?
unknownNo, no, no.
SPEAKER_04Can I say a comment? Uh I think they're I I think they're already approved in uh Canada uh in pigs, right? The CRISPR uh for the um PERS-resistant pigs. And uh we have no import restrictions whatsoever on Canada. So uh uh it's possible they're in our food supply now. Um I think it's crazy. I think that uh um they can say it's wonderful technology, but I don't think they don't they don't know what they don't know and they do not know what they're messing with. And I just think it's dangerous myself. We raised heritage, uh, do rock berkshires, and we're gonna continue with that. And we have a closed herd because I don't trust what they're putting in these pigs nowadays.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Now, to some extent, let's just say it out loud. We have bioengineered animals to suit our purposes, right? We have breeds and adaptations. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about really taking a divergence from any sort of natural breeding or evolution.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I guess I guess they've done both, they've done both really because uh, you know, they've uh um bred all of these farm animals to the point that they've reduced or eliminated their instincts, they've made them so that they grow so fast, they've done whole bunches of unnatural things. And then on top of that, uh they have legitimate bioengineering that they've uh technology that they're starting to introduce into animals. So I think both are wrong.
SPEAKER_05And just so everyone knows, the bioengineering labeling act excluded all of this technology from disclosure. So bioengineered animals are are not a disclosable fact. Rahi, would you put that in the broadest context for us? What it what but what genetically altering animals really means in in uh to to a regenerative system?
SPEAKER_02The earth has a few billion years of RD ahead of any arrogant scientific PhD, whatever the hell you have in front of your name, it doesn't matter. That's simply arrogant to think that somehow we can exceed the genetic engineering of the planet itself that was done for billions of years in a lot more capacity to experiment than we would ever find in a lab. So to do that, yes, sure, we we humans, we have degenerated to the point that irrational thought is no longer a common practice. That means rational thought is no longer a common practice. And as a result of that, we are convincing ourselves that somehow we are better than all of this. And so, as a result of that, we have lost the integrity of our food, meaning the nourishing capacity of our food. We are degenerating as humans because of that at a mass scale. Scientifically verifiable, just take a look at the cost of health care associated with diet-related diseases and all that. And somehow we tend to continue to justify to ourselves at the broadest and highest levels of government and industry that doing more of what had caused all of those catastrophic situations in the planet is actually worth scaling up. I mean, how else can you scale that to the point that we actually destroy the whole planet in the name of food? That's the only destination I can see with that kind of mentality and that kind of myopic understanding of who we are as human beings as part of this earth. That's tiny quick thought on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's like the attack on salmonella and poultry, right? Like this is naturally occurring bacteria. Um, you know, we the farmer is going to have to push the agenda, right? Like us individual farmers, independent farmers, are going to have to speak up and become louder. We're too busy farming, we're too busy doing what we do every single day. And we also genuinely, most of us don't have much interest in being a figurehead for these types of things, but the future of our food and our nourishment as a human like greatly depends on the quality of food that we're producing. So we're gonna have to kind of take a different approach in the next generation.
SPEAKER_05Thanks. And and I'll just add, it's interesting that they're afraid of American consumers on this issue, and rightly so. And by the way, I meet face to face every year with the people doing this technology and the confinements that are can't wait to be able to deploy it. It's fascinating the world that they live in in terms of uh livestock production and our responsibilities as human stewards. Um, Steve Lequ, Christy, would you uh spotlight Steve? Uh Steve oversees a lot of the eggs that come into this uh natural and organic space in the United States. And I'm gonna give him uh well seven to ten minutes to walk through how egg production is done, the the different processes. And really, there's a core question here is how much can we trust some of these labels um in terms of um uh in terms of how it can be done to meet the standards that are expressed on the packaging. And Christy, I'm not sure that he's spotlighted. Um I see his video is on.
SPEAKER_00I think you I think you're spotlighted, Steve. I see again.
SPEAKER_05Okay, he's on down. Go ahead. Thanks, Steve.
SPEAKER_03Thanks. Uh boy, a tough group to follow. Uh uh, you know, wait a invite me with this group on your panel. Uh, excellent. Um, I work for the Mid-States uh specialty egg company. Uh our corporate office is in uh Sedalia, Missouri. We have about a thousand farms, uh we will have by the end of 27. Uh, and on those farms is uh we have about 1,400 uh different uh bird type locations from mobile, we call mobile coops to um sizes as small as 3,000 birds to as large as 30,000 birds, but nothing larger than that. Uh most of our farms or barns that are on a farm are between uh 15 and 20,000 birds. Uh we have five feed mills. You know, you guys were talking about grain. We we go through about 30 million bushel of corn a year. Uh our farms are spread out from Wisconsin all the way down to Texas and then from Virginia all the way uh west to Colorado. Uh I liked uh Heidi's about the schools. Uh um yeah, I agree with everybody on that so much. So all of our farms are anywhere from 15 uh to 50 acres of land for the uh chickens to um forage. Uh we do have on our regenerative farms uh paddock systems. Um we don't on our mobile farms that are because you don't need them because the the the whole mobile coop and the chickens just go to another pasture uh every couple days. Um unlike some that mentioned um they rotate every three days. I think it was Greg, two or three days. Uh with us, it's it's usually around eight to 14 days that they get uh they can be in a pasture or a part of the pasture, and then we rotate them to a different pasture. Um we are huge advocates that chickens should be outside or allowed to go outside. Um our barns are all equipped with what I call as growing up on a farm in South Dakota as a kid, uh they're equipped with what we call we call them swamp coolers. It's just a way to kind of air condition the farm or the barns, um, so that on a really, really hot day, you know, the the the chickens can always go outside, but they kind of come and go because it's nice and cool in that barn in in Missouri in the summer in Texas, it can get quite warm outside. So um, yeah, we are um really big into moving to regenerative agriculture. Um, I think one of the questions or somebody made the comment is could we do this uh nationally on on chicken laying hands? Uh the answer to that is absolutely we could. Um many people on this call have probably never heard of our company, and yet uh we have 27 million chickens that uh lay about an egg every day. Um and so you know, with all of those chickens outside, and yet people have never heard of us. Uh and we have over a hundred uh people per week that would like to participate in our company and and and build a barn. So we do just about everything with an egg, uh, from sell them as a shell egg to a liquid egg to a powdered egg, um, to a hard-cooked egg or anything like that. So um yes, I'm very passionate about the regenerative movement, as I think Alan and Christy are aware because I know them. Um I I do feel that uh all of our farms should be that. Um the pesticides and whatnot, what they've done uh to the land and and whatnot is it's and to our people's diets. Um just kind of absolutely we disagree with those things.
SPEAKER_05So thank you, Steve. Any questions? Super helpful. Yeah, we're gonna keep you on. Um, okay. Uh I I think this is gonna come up. Um we have some big issues we haven't addressed. Panelists, let's do something quick, not quite a lot, lightning round, but access to processing and institutional and retail markets. Greg, I want to hand this off to you. I know it's a big frustration for you. Um, but in the in the realm of regeneration and communities and rural vitality, why is it so damn hard to to sell pork?
SPEAKER_04You know, I I think I think we have a core problem in the um protein sector in the um United States. And I think that uh um we're on what the fourth or fifth term now. Uh it's regenerative now, it was sustainable, there was organic, there was natural, I mean, there was uh local, there's there's been a whole bunch of terms. Uh, and if we don't get this regenerative definition right, uh there'll be the next term because I think consumers have things in their minds. And I don't want to be too cynical, but that picture that you put up of the um hog confinement operation, that sow farm, uh, our biggest competitor in the institutions we sell to some colleges. Our biggest competitor is a picture exactly like that. Um our, you know, um, I think there's a person listening today uh that um his uh model for uh quite a few years was selling to the largest, uh I'm not gonna mention names, but the largest uh niche uh retailer um that you know uh talks about buying from local uh small farmers uh regenerative. Uh I think that a lot of those terms just get watered down. And I think it's difficult for the smallest ideal producers to sell into those because a lot of those terms get watered down. And I think that's where we got to get this definition correct.
SPEAKER_05In other words, if everything is regenerative organic, then nothing can be regenerative organic and there's no incentive to a buy. Well, my argument differentiate. They want they'll just buy on price.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, my argument is that we we differ from Europe. I don't think we have clear delineation. And uh, you know, there are niches, and then there are niches within niches. And anybody that establishes a niche within a niche, uh, the big guys immediately co-opt that and stick that on their label. And we should have choices for consumers in the United States where if they want to spend more money and they want something different, they should be able to buy a niche within a niche. Um, and they should be able to buy something that isn't industrial, and they should be able to know that because it should be transparent. And my argument is that isn't the case in the US.
SPEAKER_05Heidi, you've you don't have a huge market share, but you've got markets, right? Um, is that because you've been lucky or what would her strategy there, real quick?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I think luck always plays into business in some regard, but no, I think this is incredibly intentional with how we've driven our business forward. You first need to understand how consumers shop and how we as people orient ourselves to the grocery store. We've been told that price and value should be the one of the number one uh considerations when choosing our food. And the buyers of these grocery stores are, you know, uh they're regular folks, right? But they also are judged by the PL statement. They're judged by their margin contribution. So this is the game that we're in, whether we like it or not, that's the game. So, you know, I think we have to work to do a few things simultaneously, right? We have to show why that choice is so important, like Greg is saying. We have to convince these buyers and retailers that they must provide a choice for something different to the shopper. And additionally, we need to continually re-educate our buyers and our retailers and our consumers that price and value and price and cost are two very different concepts, right? Um again, it has never been easier to connect with a consumer. It has never been easier to tell your story. You know, when my parents were doing this, we would go around from butcher shop to butcher shop on foot with a phone book, and we would tell the story day in and day out. And that is how we got business a turkey, five turkey, 10 turkeys at a time in our local communities in the local Bay Area to Destal, right? You can do that with a few emails and some Instagram videos in today's day and age, right? So operationally, this is not the case because regulations and certifications and scaling from an operational perspective, there are huge barriers to entry for smaller producers. So while you can connect, right, you certainly can't scale unless you're already in this business or born into it or are very savvy in in managing your company strategy to stay alive. Because if you're in the middle, you know, it's not a good spot to be, right? You're either competing with the big boys who who are the king, queen, and jack of all trades, or you or you are incredibly small and um or you don't have a brand. And like to Steve's point, that's incredible. 27 million chickens. And I don't, I don't, I'm sorry, Steve. I'm very sorry. I didn't know I didn't know you before this call.
SPEAKER_03It's hard to hear that I hear that every week.
SPEAKER_01I'm so sorry. I was better. But this is a problem for us.
SPEAKER_05Ray, you've established your own processing to make sure that that's never a barrier to you. Your birds end up very expensive, but the nutritional density and just the taste is is kind of the the those two things are the value that you're delivering to to your to your to your buyers and the and the eaters. Um, anything else you can add to this conversation about access to markets and processing?
SPEAKER_02Sure. I think one thing we have misunderstood is that there's a lot more people who no longer trust the system as it is than we actually have been able to access. And probably Steve is tapping a lot of that consumer demand because of the way he has organized his business. In our case, we have been growing at the speed of markets as opposed to their capacity to produce. And so there is a lot here that we need to do as an ecosystem to level those things off, including the 170 plus uh natural grocers, uh, Alan. I mean, you you should be on the spot as far as how you make decisions, as well as all of us, right? So, yes, we we can do a lot more. And but the key is if we lose the integrity of what we are talking about in the process of doing more, then to what end do we do what we do? It's just like I'm not interested in in being part of a conventional transactional extractive system. In fact, I got into farming um trying to find a system that would that will deliver for me as a farmer, and I couldn't find one. And then good people out there, nothing wrong with their businesses, but they couldn't deliver for me to make a livelihood out of farming. And if you look at it, uh Aaron Um Martin just posted something earlier today about the the 57% of farmers in this country lose money. How the heck do we expect farmers to stay in business if most of them are losing money? So I couldn't find a system that would respect me as a farmer. And so I literally had to go and design a system and launch a system instead of designing and launching a farm in the presence of a lack of a system that will deliver for me. And that's why we had to figure out how we're going to do processing, branding, marketing, distribution, the whole freaking thing. And so it isn't an easy lift. And up to now, I'm still looking for ways that this system can engage with us so that I'm ready to give this up. It's not easy. And like we haven't figured out processing. We bought a processor, we redeployed it, reinvested, we got our own brand and stuff. That wasn't the plan. My plan was I just freaking wanted to farm. That's my vocation. I was born to do that, I know how to do it, but I'm not gonna do it as a slave indentured servant to a system that doesn't value me. And that's what we had to do. What we are doing, we haven't won the game yet. We're still small, we're still struggling, uh, and all of that, but we are doing it in our own terms, and that makes a huge understand.
SPEAKER_03If if I if I could add, can I add that? Yeah, please go ahead. Um something that really is uh inspiring to me about hearing Reggie is that um I think if the consumers knew how their broiler chickens were being raised in conventional uh systems, I don't know that they would eat them. Um I you know, the consumers haven't been out and actually see them and experience them, and I have. And uh, I think you know, Reggie, there's gonna be more people joining your movement. Um, I hear it all the time. Um, and so you know, I think Greg mentioned about labels and the greenwashing, and you know, in our industry, you hear people talk about cage free. It's not cage free, it's just a bigger cage. It's not if a chicken cannot go outside, come and go as they want, they are miserable. I think somebody mentioned about being them being depressed, they don't have feathers after about 30 weeks, they're bloody. It's it's uh it's embarrassing, it shouldn't be allowed. On the bright side of this conversation, I think back to my 25 plus year career in the food industry, we have come a long way. And the younger generation, the somewhat educated, or I think Heidi mentioned how access you can now to whether it's Instagram or whatever, and you can follow things. Uh, that generation, like my my children that are some children that are in their 20s and whatnot, clean label and how all of us on this call are doing it, it means something to them. And not because of me, has nothing to do with me, it has to do with their education and what they are learning. And and there is a movement out there, in my thoughts, that the demand for what all of us are doing on here is going to continue to grow. Our company had no intentions of going to 27 million lane heads. They we are owned by uh or most of our owners are of the Mennonite and Amish, they could care less how big they get. That is not their mission in their life and their motivation. Um, they do it just because of the demand. People keep calling one and more.
SPEAKER_05Steve, stay on that track. We need to transition to our last question, and we're short on time. No, but you're you're touching it because it's about our right relationship here. And all of you um uh, you know, were chosen partly, we're asked to participate because you understand this question, think about every day. But what's our right relationship to to livestock and the ecology and the land and each other and our communities? Just specifically and as quickly as possible, when you talk about all of these small Mennonite farms, speak for them. What's their relationship to these animals that are producing eggs for you?
SPEAKER_03They love them, they truly care about these animals. They um I think Christy could vouch for this. It it's it's uh it almost when you think about how others are farming, and it's not that they're bad people, it's again, it's how they were brought up or whatnot, but when you see how these people farm and you go out and see a mobile coupe, uh it's an emotional thing to see it. And when we can get customers and consumers or college kids to come visit, which we do, I'm telling you, I'm not worried about what they're gonna buy for eggs going forward. I know when they leave and I know they're gonna spread that word. Um, you know, I'll never get some of my uncles and aunts to ever agree with with purchasing our products.
SPEAKER_05But uh Greg, I'm a pig guy, as you know, so um you guys can keep your chickens, but what's your what's your answer to that? What's your relationship to those animals?
SPEAKER_04Well, you know, pigs are uh one of the most intelligent animals on the farm for sure, and they have a um interesting personality. Um, so you know, I we're I don't want to use the word attached to the pigs because uh, you know, we still harvest them, obviously, but um uh we definitely have a relationship with the pigs and uh pigs outside are just cool animals and it's just need to be around them. Uh it's kind of really hard to explain. You gotta come visit see it sometime. Uh but it's it's uh it's different when you um treat them like animals and let them express their instincts, uh, versus uh you're treating them as a um line on the profit and loss statement. I think that's the big difference there. I think that's uh somewhat hard to discern, uh, but I think that's the big difference.
SPEAKER_05And Heidi, your family quick thought.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, listen, a a symbiotic relationship, right, in the most esoteric terms is is is the right relationship in a sense. But you know, I think for for today's discussion, extreme ownership of your company's, you know, composure and judgment as you enter into the space of regenerative, an extreme appreciation for the heritage of our industry, where it's been and where it can head. Um, you know, the industrial food production, you know, has never been designed with the end in mind, but this system could be. So You know, I think we have to keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_05Thanks. You guys have been all fantastic. Reggie, guess what? This is your sweet spot. Land us for us. What's our right relationship here as livestock farmers?
SPEAKER_02We are no less, no more, than all the other creatures. And when we are in good relationship, the language and the feeling is transferred. There is now scientific evidence that a tree has more neurons in the dips of their roots than we have in our brain, that they actually think, transmit, and all that. That's why a tree on the other side of a field can react to the damage being caused to a tree on the opposite side. Animals predict us, they relate to us. We just don't understand their language and we have refused to listen to their signals. But when you get into interrelationship and you open up your indigenous intellect and your ability to understand multiple languages, which is natural, and given to us a birth as part of our innate intelligence, the ability to understand a multitude of languages without studying them, especially those that don't even make sounds. And those who make sounds are even easier, like a chicken, like a cow, like a horse, like a pig. When we start relating that way, I gotta say, tell you, that is my procrastination. Because when I am out there and I am taking care of chickens, I don't care if you guys are having a Zoom and I'm supposed to be on it. It's the only times when I am like, forget it. I don't care. That is true relationship. When you are there because you want to, because as a farmer, you feel that connection. That's when you know you are growing real food. And that's when you know that you have started to regenerate your body, your mind, and your spirit so you can engage your indigenous intellect, which allows you to see the other 97% of possibilities of the land and relationships with people and creatures that we miss when we focus on extraction, exploitation, and measure our success in terms of profit, which is simply the measure of our ability to take somebody else's hard work.
SPEAKER_05I'm gonna add that the hog and chicken confinements are physically designed to prevent attachment to the animals or recognition of their spirit. You you they're just units and they're called units, right? And and uh I don't I don't think that's any accident.
SPEAKER_02So everything is food. Everything is everything is food at one point or another. We are food when we passed, other things are food, a worm is food to something else, and something else. Uh you know, light is food to the plant, plant is food to the cow, to the chicken, the grain is food to the chicken, the chicken is manure is food to the to the tree, to the nut. Everything is food. We are simply part of a very complex web of food. And that when we're saying that, we understand relationships.
SPEAKER_05Right. Thank you. So we're officially at the end of time, but I'm not gonna end the session here. We're just on a roll. But Christy, is there a particular question that's come up that you'd really like to pose to the panelists? And panelists, if you need to jump, jump. But I didn't want to end it right here either.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we have eight questions in the queue. I'll do my best to consolidate um where I can here, and we'll just ask to try and keep your answers as concise as you can, just to be respectful for everybody's. Good luck with this to go. So, our first question from Laura Frederick. She says, Hello, I'm a student studying regenerative agriculture. I'm curious what the farmers think about certifications in general. I know that they can be an extra burden, but they signal something important to the consumer. How do you view the pros and cons? How do we decide which regen certification to get or not? Just curious to hear some opinions.
SPEAKER_03I'd love to answer that one. You know, in the egg, excuse me, in the egg industry, there's so much greenwashing out there, it's just appalling. And uh, first of all, any certification is better than no certification. So to answer uh that individual's question, uh, you really need to look into each of the different certifications, whether it's regenified or whether it's ROC, uh, each of them have very, very strong points and strong uh uh aspects to their their certification. But if there's not a certification on a food product, uh and again, this is personal for me. Um I it's wrong. And I know in the uh egg industry, when I it just it's upsetting to me to go into a grocery store and see people uh pasture raised or and you know it's not, you know, there's not one certification on that on that uh 12 or 12 count carton, and it's it's to me it's wrong, and I would really like it to get corrected. It's kind of like when you see some beef and it says it's processed in the United States of America, but the beef came from Argentina or someplace. I mean, how you know that that's that's it's not right.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, Heidi, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think certifications are a requirement of today's age and marketing and helping the consumer understand that there's third-party authentication of a farm's products and practices. But a certification does not replace a farmer's perspective, nor should it set the standard. It is a standard, but it shouldn't set the standard for a farm or a farmer with an initiative, case in point on regenerative feed. Certified regenified is a phenomenal certification. They've done a very good job. Um, but but it's not the feed is not addressed within that certification. That is a requirement that Diesel placed on ourselves around our dinner table, because that is what is most right in this sense. So and in this context. So be careful with certifications, especially if you're in school and learning that it isn't a replacement of all.
SPEAKER_05Well, you know, that's a great certify and what they don't certify. Anyway, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03You know, that's when I came to uh mid-states, uh, because I was practicing or preaching uh regenerative agriculture before that. And when I met went out and met these farmers and started meeting them, and I was like, they didn't even realize they were already practicing regenerative agriculture. They, I mean, their grasses and their land and the chickens running around, they didn't even realize what they were already just naturally doing. And so for them to be to get these some of these certifications that some people feel are very, very hard to get, uh, is it's not real hard for them because they're so pro-organic and so um so about the nature and healthy, and it's it's uh it's one of the things that made me fall in love with my company.
SPEAKER_05Rehi, I'd like to hear from you because Regenerative Ag Alliance, which correct me if I'm wrong, but self-certifies this evolving standard. Um, what's your approach on these other seals and certifications that show up that ultimately you have to compete with?
SPEAKER_02Well, we have a standard, but before we wrote our standard for poultry, we researched seven global standards and we ensured that we exceeded or met every single one of them. So by definition, we could be organic, we could be any certification out there, ROC, AGW. At the end, we are not certified. So we chose AGW as our certificational partner uh because of what I just said. You know, it's kind of a requirement. I just look at uh whether the certification uh structure in the business itself has integrity and whether it's part of the whitewashing infrastructure and it's just copying a few things to make something work, or you know, to whitewash the face of a corporation that wants to keep doing the same but needs a label that says otherwise. Uh, those are the things we look for. To us, everybody's is is guilty on to proven otherwise in this case, specific case, because it's just uh business that has gone away, and especially in regeneration, everybody's just putting labels on it, and uh that's just not okay. So we're very careful, but very important and is necessary.
SPEAKER_05Greg, do you use any certifications or seals, or is it your relationships and your product that we're we're AGW also, so we're animal welfare approved with the greener world.
SPEAKER_04Um, and then as you're well aware, I'm I'm uh um I'm on the board of the American Grass Fed Association. Uh we'd we're not AGA just because of the fact that it's mostly relationships with our chefs. I personally believe that uh certifications uh can be a double-edged sword. I think that they um the smallest of producers and processors have a hard time fitting into some of the certifications that the retailers really like. Um and then I also believe that uh as certifications become trendy, there tends to be certifications that are very, very watered down so that some of the big players can have them. But they're a necessary evil of this uh world. Um, and there are some that are uh really, really good. Um I'm a huge fan of American Grass Fed Association for grass-fed beef. Um and I'm a huge fan of animal welfare approved uh for by a greener world.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and just a disclosure natural grocers really depends on on um ATA uh for for a lot of clarity in the livestock industry. So I appreciate that. Christy, another question? I think I think yeah we we we've got everybody staying, so let's keep going.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um I'll I'll keep it going. I think this is a short answer, but uh, this is from Kelly Bolton. She says this may have been covered or out of the arena of this conversation, but I'm curious if the panel believes uh that there is actually such a thing as non-GMO corn at this point. Yay or nay.
SPEAKER_05Oh, Rehi, you're on, buddy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, there is tons of non-GMO corn. In fact, Mexico just passed a law uh restoring, and we're talking about 50, 60, 75 different varieties of corn that had never been manipulated by any science, science, you know, lab and stuff. And I myself grow heritage corn that still grows roots up three, four feet off the ground. It still casts the mucle ash with the bacteria that fixes nitrogen. Those are not GMO corn uh varieties, they are actual food. We I the other day I counted, we make over 15 kinds of food out of that corn. This is not the corn that you see out there in the fields. This is real food. So, no, definitely we can still save that because most of the world still has all of those seeds there. And there is a whole movement globally to protect seeds, check the seed, uh, the seed guardians um movement and checks uh check Meg uh Meg's work at the Nanjemo project that is doing a lot of that work as well, and so on. It's um it's a big movement. We it's it's just like uh Steve's company. Nobody heard about it, but it's is is significant.
SPEAKER_05Hey, Rahi, just uh uh would you say that those land race ancient um uh varieties are becoming more and more important to our survival as the climate uh doesn't cooperate for Midwest GMO corn?
SPEAKER_02Well, you gotta remember that our evolutionary process as humans is like this tiny compared to the uh technological and all of those advances, and so we are still wired. Our our capacity to regenerate our molecule molecules in our body is still tied to ancestral foods. We don't regenerate on modern foods, and that's why we got so much disease and so much degeneration of our our health and so on. And so I would say, duh, yes, I mean, why are we not you know recovering true sources of food? And that code, because we evolve with this species, our genetic code is directly attached to the integrity of the genetic code of all of those species. So manipulating them doesn't work for us because we can't evolve at that speed. And so, heck, I mean, put it in front of a global panel because we need governments to actually get the shit together on this thing because we are the ones who are paying the bill.
SPEAKER_05Christy, got another question?
SPEAKER_00I do from Brian Baker. Um organic is that uh the Europeans do not allow synthetic amino acids to be fed to organic animals. The NOP allows synthetic DL methionine from petrochemical sources. Are synthetic amino acids consistent with regenerative standards? And if so, why?
SPEAKER_05Great question. Heidi, I'm gonna give you a chance first. I know uh any thoughts on there? Because methionine is pretty important in poultry production.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, yeah, I I think the short answer for us would be a no, right? Like we're gonna steer clear of it. Um, you know, soy and soybean oil in poultry production is a hot and a touch point within our industry in the sense of the you know, omega-6 contribution. And um the reality is the the energy source of it and the amino acid profile of it is phenomenal. Are there other inputs that we could look at? Certainly we could. Um, again, it comes to the trade-off of access cost and cost. Is this accessible to the market and to the consumer that we're selling to in this moment? Can we get there? Can we build a bridge to have um different feedstuffs potentially? But in my opinion, you know, uh synthetic materials have no place in a animal's food.
SPEAKER_05And Rayhi, your your birds have such a robust diet. Did you ever consider or need to supplement almethionine?
SPEAKER_02Uh not yet, but uh the one thing we're also heavily exploring right now is a few varieties of ancestral corn that were researched by the University of California, Davis. They spent 10 years in Oaxaca looking at nitrogen-fixing corn. They found that there is over 100 bacteria that grows in that mucilage that those roots emit. That corn can fix up to 70% of its nitrogen, which also means that bacteria is robust and it's also intra in the system of the corn, as opposed to the pathway that nitrogen-fixing species like legumes follow. This follows a very different pathway. It's instant, it's bacteria-based, it's bacteria that is delivering that. And one of the main outcomes of that is a high methionine variety of corn, varieties of corn. And so uh methionine has always been, in fact, if you if you look at the history of corn, there have been fights and lawsuits over methionine in the history of corn because they wanted to remove it, and others didn't want to permit that. And so the genetic modification of seeds actually led to the to the to the um elimination of a lot of these critical amino acids that some of the animals need. And so recuperating that is central, and we are actively doing that, especially because most recently um uh Walter Goldstein and others in at the University of Wisconsin took those varieties and started to to mix them to see if they could continue the traits to be able to grow those uh those varieties of corn in a more more conventional way, and they have achieved some significant results in there. So there's a lot going on. We are very hopeful that, you know, unless um, I mean, you know what happens, that every just like the industrial system co-opts, everything that starts to develop in a niche level and and brings into mainstream and then whitewashes and all of that, there is an opposite force that is tracking what farmers are doing and innovations that could potentially render the need for toxic and other inputs on the farms obsolete and then attacking them heavily. And corn, I don't think it gets more complicated than corn in terms of the industry's ability to violently defend its rights to extracting and exploiting. And so that thing is the biggest threat we face, not the lack of options, is the lack of options because we have built a system that now prohibits us from doing the very things we have. We are capable and able and freely uh are free to us. And so this is this is the real conversation we have to have at the policy level, uh, rather than getting tangled up with all of these multiple levels of arguments. They just clean it up and say, okay, don't mess with the farmers, let them evolve and let them innovate into the next generation of food. If we can do that, we will eliminate most farm inputs and we will eliminate more to most of this toxic stuff that we have been uh imposed on uh sometimes by force, and like I'll say most of it done by force. So let's just keep that in mind. Um, this is not a rant, this is actually an exposure of the truth of the system we're dealing with. And you probably know it way better than I do.
SPEAKER_05The National Organic Program, the debate here continues, I believe, and to overreduce it. Um, the the synthetic L-methionine is tolerated. I'm not sure if it's officially allowed based on economic necessity, because they claim there is no natural uh component that's affordable. So you've just described a bunch of options that should be integrated into the system. Um Greg, do you have any thought on that real quick? I want to hand it off to Steve, but um you're you're muted, Greg.
SPEAKER_04Um I think the consumer in the US is probably uh more concerned about the um corn and soy in the diet. I'm not sure that most of them are aware of all of the synthetics, including synthetic um amino acids. Uh and I think uh they probably should be, uh, but I'm not sure that they are aware.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, good point. Steve, is this an issue for you with all your eggs?
SPEAKER_03No synthetics. Just stay away from them.
SPEAKER_05I like that answer. We saved us a little time. Christy. Well, yeah, learn from Steve.
SPEAKER_02I'm a bottom rolling, you are never gonna breathe that out of me.
SPEAKER_00I will uh combine sort of two similar questions, both for Steve. Um, one is from Paul Greve. He says, it sounds uh like consensus that we shouldn't make regenerative claims from animals that aren't spending the majority of their lives on land. In your regenerative production systems, what percentage of birds' lives are spent in the barn versus on land, especially in colder months? Uh let's focus on real utilization and avoid using the word access. And then similarly, um, Joe Coopsen of Joe's Farm says, What are your thoughts on the proposed petition submitted to the FDA to define pasture raised? The same way the FSIS has defined it for poultry meat production, essentially 51% plus of the birds laying life on pasture that is 51% plus rooted in vegetation. But curious, first, the first part from um Paul was uh what percentage of your birds' lives are spent in the barn versus on land?
SPEAKER_03Uh, Paul, the best way for me to answer that is weather. Um, you know, I want to be fully transparent on that. Um, our birds, uh, if they want to be outside, could be outside for much more than 50% of the day. Um, and you will see them, they love to go out early in the morning during this hot time of year, and I do want to address the cold also. Uh, but during this, when it's really warm out this time of the year, uh, even though we have shade covered and whatnot, and there's some farms that uh have so much grass growth that they'll go out and play in it. Um, but they do because again, we we uh chill our our barns. When I say chill, um uh the swamp cooler thing that I met, there's actually two of them on all of our barns, one on each end. Uh, they can come and go. And then again, late in the day this time of year, they all have outside, they just love it. Uh in the you know, early evening to late evening. So um that's my honest answer to your question. As far as the uh I'm not sure about them making them go outside, you know, the new rule that was passed there on the poultry side that they have to be outside. Ours are hey, if they want to go outside, go outside. If you don't want to go outside, don't.
SPEAKER_05Um and both three are roosting, they like their coops and they like to roost undercover. So yeah, Bob Ree is a world-class expert on this, but for the people listening in, remember that uh um Rehi, why don't you jump in? I mean, birds also want to be undercover inside at certain times.
SPEAKER_02Yes, basically, in the case of poultry, they hate open spaces. Uh there's predators above and they have evolved to protect themselves and they won't go out in the open uh unless you force them. Because of hunger and whatever. That means for burglars, if you have food inside a barn, they are not going outside, period. A few of them may uh on the edges, but they are gonna stay really close to the barns because they are not interested in exploring egg layers, 100% different story. Turkeys, 100% different story. But broilers specifically, they they um they have to be um trained and so on. For our case, to your question about percentages, uh the first four weeks, which is the brooding period, that's 28 days, they stay indoors 100% of the time. They got access to their barn and stuff, but it's not, we're not opening the doors. They are too small, the organs are not developed, and um they they actually get lost. We have lost uh many chickens because they are too small. So after the fourth week, uh for the next six weeks for the period average of 10 weeks that they we raise them, six of those weeks they will be outside 100% of the wake time. They go out first thing in the morning, they come back at night, they only sleep in the barns. They are not, you can go through a barn during the day. We have even cleaned the barn sometimes when we need to, because there is no birds inside. That's because there is no food inside, and that food is managed outdoors for the purpose of them moving around a paddock until they forage evenly, and that way we control also foraging and density and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_05I'd like to heard here from one of our turkey folks. Uh, I'm learning something today. Turkeys behave differently, they want to be out on pasture.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they love it, they're out there, they're way out there.
SPEAKER_05Do you have to force them in to protect them from predators at some point?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's choice. Like, I don't know. For for us, like we we believe that the animals should have the choice. Um, a lot of the birds will head on in in the really hot afternoon heat. Um, they're comfortable inside. I mean, they can go where they please, or they'll roost in trees, you know, under trees, definitely taking cover wherever it's um shaded. So, you know, choice is a very important thing in an animal's life. I think, you know, I think the context is really important, but um the animals' behavior and their ability to exude their behavior naturally is key. Their ability to have the choice of indoor or outdoor environment is key. The access, regardless of pasture or barn, I think is key. I think anything exclusive, one or the other, it just, you know, who are we, right?
SPEAKER_05Like, I mean, we're Greg, you had a lot of turkeys on a lot of wide open land. What's your experience there?
SPEAKER_04Um, uh, my experience the same as them is uh turkeys and ducks are completely different than broilers, and then egg layers are different than that in their desire and their ability to move outside. I would like to reiterate what I said before, though. I think uh movement, uh vegetative pasture, and soil health are components as well as the resulting human nutrition from these products. And I think that on a regenerative label, I think we have to think about whether the animals are uh grazing regrowth, uh whether they're uh tearing up areas besides uh near permanent buildings, uh, where systems that have movement uh in my mind much easier fit into a regenerative label. And I'm not saying those others aren't niche. I'm just saying that in my mind, regenerative means that the animals that were identifying the soil health, uh the pasture quality, the human health aspects, uh, you know, and almost forcing those animals to graze vegetative pastures.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I and I think the rest and the rest and the rest and recovery is crucial to what Greg mentioned. And uh, you know, when I see some farmers on in our business that don't practice that, that that's wrong. It's it's you gotta let the you gotta let the organic matter in the soil that that needs to stay covered.
SPEAKER_05It cannot uh there's gotta be some kind of cover there all the time, or there should be a dry dirt field with green bins out there doesn't really count as pasture.
SPEAKER_00What's that and a point of clarification from Joe was that the question isn't as much should they have access, but should they be labeled the same um and both fall under the pasture race claim. So that was just the point.
SPEAKER_03I don't know how to answer that. Ours, you know, um we strictly follow the the square foot. Uh as you know, uh ours have more than the square foot. Uh American Humane, as an example, is 108 square feet uh on the pasture claim per bird. Ours are all somewhere in the 120 to 150. I mean, the fields are huge. Um, so yeah. Um, I I don't know how to I really don't know how to answer that question. Again, we we are in the camp that Heidi is. If our birds want to go out, come in, go out, they they can do whatever they want. In warm weather or cold weather. Uh in the wintertime, our doors are open. If the birds want to go outside, they can, and many do. You you think they don't, but uh now they're probably they don't when it's 20 below zero in Wisconsin, but uh you know, in Missouri and Kansas and Kentucky, and that they are they're out there playing in the snow.
SPEAKER_05By the way, hat hat tip to Christy on this because she actually packs her bags and runs around the country walking across chicken farms. Not that she doesn't trust Steve Lacroix, but we verify as well. Heidi, did you add something?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just wanted to say there's absolutely nothing wrong with the definition for a label, right? Or a standard for a label. Like I want to make sure that that's clear. Like that's perfectly acceptable to say, as a community, as an industry, we are going to have a standard for a label for a claim. I think that that's that's fine. But if we're talking about animal behavior or or how we are regenerating soil, you know, how it's actually operationally happening on a on a ranch or a farm, you know, that's a different discussion. But like to Paul's point about labeling, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a standard for labels that everyone go ahead can work together.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I think as an industry, uh, that we have to be very, very careful about greenwashing. And I come back, I've I've said this many times now, but I think that we need to be able to, the consumer needs to be able to delineate, and I think there's too much noise in the marketplace on uh poultry, uh pigs. I think they need to be able to tell whether or not and assume with no label that it's uh industrial confinement production. If it has outside access, they should be able to understand that if it's actually on uh outside with vegetation, or if it's living outside on moving pasture, I think those are different production standards, and I think those are different consumer uh perceptions and different consumer expectations, and I don't think those are being met by the industry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, one of the things our company's doing, it's a good point. If you don't mind, oh go ahead, Alan.
SPEAKER_05I'm sorry. Well, we have four minutes left, and out of respect for everyone's time here, we're gonna stop at the top of the hour. Steve, go ahead and finish your thought, but I'd like each of you to give your last thoughts here uh before we wrap up, wrap up. So, Steve, chime in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, our goal, uh, and we have many of our items now have a QR code on them. Um, that you can get onto that QR code, you know exactly where that uh how that bird's living. Um it's an educational piece for them. And our goal is uh to get every package that we send out to have one of those QR codes because we have different chickens. We have soy free, we have those that don't eat soy, we have those that are free range, we have those that are passionate, you know, it's it's it's different. We have mobile, uh, and so that's that's uh when you have 1400 plus farms and you want that QR code to be able to tell you, which we can do manually now, tell you exactly where that dozen eggs came from. If somebody calls up and says, We have a complaint on this one dozen package, we know exactly where that one dozen eggs came from, from which farm exactly. They don't get co-mingled. Um it's it's really and it's it's hard to do it manually, but eventually we're gonna get electronically. Sorry to take up so much time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love that. That's great use of technology as opposed to AI, but I digress. Greg, last thoughts. What do you want to add in? What'd we leave out?
SPEAKER_02I just want to say if somebody's lying about what they're doing on a label, they should be called out, they should be held accountable. Period. They shouldn't get self-made long ways forward.
SPEAKER_03They should not get self-spayed. That's right. They should not get self-self space, it's wrong.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Greg. Yeah. Um, my thoughts are that I just hope that uh we get the um regenerative uh the definition and the standards correct, uh, because I see this as a um a huge opportunity for farmers and a huge um choice for consumers. And if we don't get it correct, I just see it uh adding to the existing greenwashing in the industry. So I'm hopeful that this works out.
SPEAKER_05How do you think that's a good thing?
SPEAKER_04Keep off the fight, Greg. You're doing great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just tremendous appreciation for everyone on this call for the for everyone who joined, you know, who who want to create a better food system. This is a very small percentage of sales within the United States, and it is um one of the biggest topics within our industry. So the future of food is the nourishment.
SPEAKER_05Stay tuned, more to come. Right.
SPEAKER_02Well, as everything else we have today, we envisioned it a whole country, buildings, land, agricultural practices. We articulated them, and then we went and built them. And just the same way, I hope we have achieved a level of intellectual capacity to re-articulate this food system, to rethink this food system, to re-articulate it the way we would like it to be for the well-being and the optimal expression of all beings on this planet, and that we will then go and build it with integrity.
SPEAKER_05Thank you so much, Rehi. That that's awesome. Um, I'm putting my admin hat on. We have our next um session coming up on 17 December, September. Um, if you don't know Meg Cattell, absolutely phenomenal, worldwide long-term researcher, one of the best. And she ran a small regenerative dairy for a long time. And then Phil Forbes from uh Kelowna Farm just agreed to to uh add into that. With these uh with these two, I'm not sure we'll have a third or fourth panelist, but I'd really appreciate it what everyone to join. They're quite fearless about um telling the truth and and digging into these issues. I gotta thank all of you for doing the same thing. Um, as you can tell, we we could go for another hour, but um, at some point we have to attend to other business in our lives. So I really appreciate it. This could not have gone better. Christy, any last thoughts from you? I don't want to.
SPEAKER_00Yes, for the three questions we didn't get to, I will probably email our panelists um those questions just so I can try to get those and connect you with those participants, um, just so they can get some information and they're really interested in wanting to, you know, chat more. So that's it. Thank you, everyone. Today was amazing.
SPEAKER_05Thanks, everyone. Thank you.