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EMDR Phase Four: Desensitization Deep Dive
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Hello friends! This episode features Cassandra and Garth, as they talk about: EMDR Phase 4 Desensitization, dual awareness, the flash forward technique, cognitive interweaves, and the therapist's real role during active processing. You can learn more about Cassandra and her practice at: seentherapy.org. Get a taste for the episode below. If you enjoy your listen give us a follow, share, or five star review. Have a good one!
"The therapist's job is really to get out of the way as much as possible. The brain does most of the work when you just let it roll."
Hello, hello, hello friends. Welcome to the podcast where we simplify everything about mental health. Just kidding. But here's what we are gonna do. We're gonna sit down together, a licensed mental health professional, that's me, and a regular old Joe, as my husband Garth would describe himself. We're gonna talk about the nitty-gritty of the MBR, some nervous system mapping, how couples can help each other heal, what's healthy parenting actually look like, maybe a little bit of good old banter mixed in. All with the goal of making mental health a little bit simpler for you. Quick note, because my lawyer says that I have to. I'm a therapist, but not your therapist, unless I am. Even if I am, this is still just a podcast, okay? Now have a good listen. Hello, friends. We are continuing our EMDR phase series. There are eight phases. We are on phase four, and I am joined by Guard.
SPEAKER_04Again.
SPEAKER_00Yay!
SPEAKER_04Surprise, shocker.
SPEAKER_00Keep dragging him back. Guys, these episodes have been pretty meaty anyway, but phase four is a big one. Phase four is what people typically think of when they think of EMDR. Now, phase four is not all there is to EMDR, but desensitization is a big part of EMDR. So we are really going to get into it why phase four is important while also not discrediting that all of the other phases that surround it and support it are very important as well. We're gonna, I think in this episode, unless I get off track, at least where my notes are right now, we're gonna stick to the basic protocol. The vast majority of the time as we're talking about this phase, then we'll trail off, I think, in just one one area. At least that's my goal. So before we get rolling, Garth, bant us.
SPEAKER_04If you were a fish, what fish would you be?
SPEAKER_00If I were a fish, what fish would I be? So I could be completely wrong. It seems as though clownfish have a decent quality of life with their whole symbiotic relationship with sea anemones. However, I caught a puffer fish or blowfish once when I was like five. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Just like How did you do that?
SPEAKER_00They're like deadly by pure luck. And I would have to ask an adult that was with me. Sometimes my memory is I caught it. Sometimes my memory is someone else caught it and that was standing next to me. I don't know if they are deadly. We should look that up. Do you think they are?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they're super deadly. Yeah, because I I know that because of food. That's a delicacy that you can only get in certain places.
SPEAKER_00And I thought that was lionfish.
SPEAKER_04No, pufferfish. I mean lionfish are deadly too, I think. But pufferfish, if you like miss one little tiny bit, you're dead. That's it.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Anyway, I'm a hundred percent certain that we caught one. And yeah, apparently they contain uh deadly neurotoxin, more poisonous than cyanide. One fish holds enough toxin to kill 30 adults. Wow. Paralysis, respiratory failure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You sure you caught one of those when you were five? I'm not confident I did, but I am confident I saw one.
SPEAKER_04Huh. Well, what was going on? Give us some context here. We were just caught it?
SPEAKER_00Like we were out like up to our knees, and now that I'm talking it through, I do think it was an adult next to me, but not someone in my family.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was like another or not someone that I knew.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was just a random adult waving a net around, and they came up with a puffer fish, and yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we apparently none of us knew that it was poisonous or whatever you I mean, is that maybe there's a di maybe there's a difference between a puffer fish and a blowfish.
SPEAKER_04Maybe there are different types, right?
SPEAKER_00Maybe. Yeah, we should look into this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. We'll look into it more. But you're thinking maybe one of those, either a clownfish or one of those, huh?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I've talked way too long. Okay. I said all of this to say I have a special connection with pufferfish. Yeah. We will circle back in the next episode and let you know whether or not I was being exposed to we just they they kind of just like and maybe the adult knew it was semi-poisenous or something. Or and I don't know if I'm using poisonous poisonous versus venomous accurately, but they did lob it back with the net. They didn't touch it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they specifically instructed us not to touch it, but we were like, Stan, I don't know. Anyway, I have a special connection to them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, a near-death experience. Sounds like to me.
SPEAKER_00Apparently. I need to go down a uh Google rabbit hole after this. Okay. Okay, what's your favorite fish?
SPEAKER_04It's not my favorite fish. It's what fish would I be if I was a fish. If I had to be a fish.
SPEAKER_00Oh, apparently a puffer fish. I thought I wanted to be a puffer fish, and now that I know more, I definitely they've got a lot going on.
SPEAKER_04You made a tough argument. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You may eat me, but I'm gonna kill you.
SPEAKER_04That's right. Yeah, I don't know. Of course, yeah, something safe would be nice, but I don't know. I guess if I had to be a fish, I might be one of those Goliath groupers.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Big old big guys.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean big, big, big old guys.
SPEAKER_03I'm just big shit here, but I just pure.
SPEAKER_00It's funny when we talk about animals in this banting section of the podcast. I often focus on quality of life.
SPEAKER_04You do, yeah. Almost exclusively being your deciding factor in all the choices. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny. Wow. Okay. Nobody psychoanalyze that. All right, we are six minutes in. All right. Let's get rolling. Phase four of EMDR. Like I said, this is what folks think of when they think of EMDR. We are working to, in the basic EMDR protocol, process a past memory. I think I'll go ahead and I will really quickly take us off trail off of the basic protocol really quick. What? Just so that we can then stay on the basic protocol.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So the way that I'm going to take us off, we've talked about this on the podcast and in this series before. People have a misconception that you absolutely need to know specific memories in order to get into phase four and desensitize current symptoms. And though that is very helpful, it is not true that that has to happen. I'm going to give one example of a technique that we could use where we would not need any past memories. And that would be the flash forward technique. So in the flash forward technique, rather than utilizing specific memories that are distressing, we would be asking someone to construct an image of your worst case scenario. And then we'd be desensitizing that.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I will also do, I'll essentially use this if someone comes in and they're having frequent nightmares but they don't have any identified memories, we'll desensitize the nightmares. We're not going to go into all of the different ways that you can help someone with EMDR if they don't have a specific memory. But I just wanted to identify that outside of the basic protocol for phase four, there are ways to address things without a specific memory from the past. And a flash forward technique is one way in which a clinician could do that. So if you're a client listening who's like, do I even go to EMDR? I don't even have specific memories. Yes, go to EMDR. We can still help you.
SPEAKER_04That makes sense though. You don't have specific memories, so you imagine something that would fuel these symptoms that you're having right now to use as a tool to attack those symptoms right now. That's neat.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And again, that's not the only thing you can do, but it's one thing that you can do. And without getting too in the weeds on it, here's an interesting thing. The brain is so cool, right? I have had, I would say probably somewhere between a half a dozen and a dozen people. I can't put a specific number on it right now on the spot, but who have I have used this flash forward technique with, they haven't been able to identify specific memories. And it is not uncommon in the process of UMDR to initially not be able to identify memories or be able to identify very small parts. And then those memories become, ironically, as they become more clear, less distressing. The timeline of events becomes more clear as things become less distressing. I have had people construct very similar future events that they're fearful of, this worst case scenario, very similar to the memories that then they're able to put together later in treatment. Does that make sense? Interesting.
SPEAKER_04So like it it was lingering there as the the fear, the the worst case scenario was what happened. They just didn't really remember that specific thing.
SPEAKER_00It was there, it just wasn't very accessible consciously. Yeah, yeah. So I've had that happen uh a good handful of times now, which is just it's it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So in order to go through phase four, I want to go to a document that I give to new clinicians, and I literally have it saved in my drive as EMDR Easy. So in EMDR Easy, it goes through all of the phases, but then in phase four, it's very scripted. So I just want to really quickly walk you through that.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So if I were sitting with a client and we were walking through phase four, I would say, I'd like you to bring up the that image, those negative words, notice where you're feeling it in your body. And I provide eye movements with my hands. So I would say, and now follow my hands and just notice whatever comes up for you. There are no supposed to's. Let whatever happens, happens, happen. And lots of different things are coming up for clients at that point. Now remember, we've established the negative cognitions and all of that in in phase three. Yeah. Right. So we have prepared ourselves for this already. And then in phase four, we're just working to desensitize. So as different things come up for clients, sometimes it's a body feeling. I've had people say before, like, my legs are really feeling like they just want to take off and run. Yeah, that's normal. Let's notice that. More often than not, what comes up for folks is they see big shifts in the memory. I'm sure that you could search for this on YouTube and then give you specific examples. I'm hesitant to throw out really specific examples that ways that memories shift because I do think that sometimes clients come in and just like any type of therapy, clients are humans, not just client, right? Like I do this too. Humans are set up to like want to please.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so they've seen something online of how EMDR has supposed to work, how EMDR is supposed to work, and then they play that out. Right. I don't necessarily want to go into the specifics of what happens, but there are ways in which a memory shifts that really usually kind of catches clients off guard and indicates to me that they're more removed from that memory than they were before.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now remember, we've talked about the goal of EMDR is to create dual awareness. And then there's a domino effect after that.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So if we can create dual awareness, a client is going to feel more removed from a memory because they're not going to feel like they're continuing to be present in it.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_00As they were before.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm present, I can I can think of that and I can also be present here. Exactly. Yeah, that's the dual awareness. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so if I'm present here with you, then again, I have to be more removed from that memory than I was before. Whereas in the past, when that memory has been brought up, whether I choose to bring it up or it's randomly brought up, I am no longer in the present with the person or environment that I am present with. I am to a varying degree sucked into that memory. So this shows up for clients, like I said, in a variety of ways, but essentially what's happening for them is they are becoming more and more disconnected from that memory as their dual awareness increases. So there are times when clients are going to become stuck, and that's really normal. We're going to go back to the worst part of this memory, bring it up, and we're going to do bilateral stimulation again. So again, if you're seeing me, that's following my hands as we do eye movements. And then you're going to ask the client when you think of the original incident on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is the memory having no control and 10 is the memory having complete control, how much control do you feel this situation has over you now? Now I do not walk through that exact verbiage anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes I don't even ask for an exact number anymore. I'm watching for how the body is changing for my client, and I'm listening to what they're reporting to me. When you're new, though, we've talked about this several times. When you're new to EMDR, I do think there is really something to learning the rules, learning them well, leaning into the basic protocol and living there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now, this template that I have here for my new clinicians that are starting EMDR, as it walks through phase four, and what we just went through is phase four. It's it's that simple. Yeah. And then we get into phase five, which we're we're not doing in until next week. So as we walk through phase four, I have even changed some of the language from the original protocol a little bit. So there are things that you can do, even as a new clinician, to kind of tweak things. I'll give you one example. When you think of the original incident on a scale zero to ten, where zero is the memory having no control over you. That those are my words. I believe the original protocol says where zero is the memory having no distress. The problem we run into is if I'm working with a parent who has lost their child, their child has died.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00They're distressed. And this the memory of losing their child is distressing. Yeah. When I am working with somebody who has been maybe like physically assaulted, that memory is distressing. What I'm asking them, it goes back to dual awareness. How much are you here with me in the moment?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So anyway, it's the bulk of what people think of when they think of EMDR, but it is pretty simple. I've got a couple more things that I want to go over. But Garth, what questions do you have for me so far?
SPEAKER_04So can you give us a a lead of all of the steps up up to here? So what what are the order of events up to here again? I just want to contextualize something really quick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you want me to give you the other phases? Yeah. Okay. So in phase one, we're history taking. Okay. Remember, the goal is not that we get everything down, but that we are dipping our toe and the client's toe into their history. We're starting to make some connections. Right. Phase two is preparation.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00So we are doing things like providing psychoeducation, resourcing, identifying any barriers to care. So what would be maybe like some secondary gains that they would have and things like that.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00In phase three, we are assessing. So this is where we take the information that we got from history taking, the information that we got from preparation, because we learn about how resourced they are there. Right. And we start to really create a more formal plan. Okay. We get negative cognitions. We get specific targets, things like that. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Helpful. And then this step.
SPEAKER_00And then this is phase four.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Where we're actually getting into again what people typically think of when they think of EMDR, because this is where we first introduce desensitizing bilateral stimulation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And so you you've talked a lot about the dual awareness. Yeah. That is, and I guess that's the goal of this step, right? Yes. Of this phase is to just achieve that dual awareness.
SPEAKER_00Which again then has a domino effect. If I can recognize that I'm present here in the moment and this happened in the past, then my emotions around it decrease. My body sensations around it decrease. My negative cognition around it decreases. Yeah. And I can start to then here in a moment move forward. I won't go into how we're moving forward. That's the next phase. But yes.
SPEAKER_04Do you notice a lot of clients? Because you've talked about how this process is circular a lot. As you're trying to achieve dual awareness, is that where it's like revealing new layers of the memory for the client? It's becoming clearer, more in focus. And then maybe there's some more history taking to do because there was a whole nother layer here, and you kind of need to jump out of this step and take some more information. Or how is there is there anything of a significant pattern that you notice here?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So are there when you say is there a significant pattern, like are there things that I see that happen often for clients in this phase?
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I think that what you just brought up was, is it common for more information to arise in this phase?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a much more succinct way to say what I was trying to say. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And yes, it is common for more information to arise in this phase. Sometimes related to the specific memory that you're addressing, if you're addressing a specific identified memory from the past, sometimes related to a larger memory network that's not this specific memory. We've talked about this on the podcast before, but this is a really good tool for clinicians and a really good thing for clients to remember. It is okay for clinicians to say, Hey, I heard that, right? That seems really hard, and it also seems like it it's related to this, but it's over here. Let me hold that for you. Okay, here's where it gets complicated. There is EMDR, which is the basic protocol that we're talking about today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then there is EMD, little R, and then there's EMD. And you're looking at me like, I know, I know, I know, I know. And I'm trying to decide in our next episode how much we're really going to get into all of that. But the the clinician along with the client can choose how the way that I explain it to clients, I will tell clients at the beginning of a session, your job is to just let whatever comes up come up. I have a few different jobs. I have quite a few rules that I'm following. That's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Let me do my jobs, let me follow my rules.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You just let whatever comes up come up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If something comes up that I think we need to be addressing at a different time, I'm gonna tell you, hey Garth, I've got that. I'm writing it down. You don't need to hold it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I want you to come back to this Polaroid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And the clinician and the client can decide ahead of time how much they want to address in that day and how much they want to allow the client to just kind of free associate. But also the clinician. Needs to make decisions in the moment based off of the client's what the client is sh demonstrating to them, right? Like, are we getting so far out of our window of tolerance that we're gonna completely shut down? Well, even if the clinician, the client had agreed to really just allow like kind of free association, the clinician's gonna need to come in and really kind of contain.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so even if you didn't agree upon it ahead of time, there might be an instance where the clinician needs to say, Hey Garth, I hear ya.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm writing that down right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've I've got that whole piece. Yeah. I want you to come back to the the Polaroid. So, yes, in this phase, sometimes things get a a little wild. Not for everybody. Yeah. Some people are gonna come in and it's gonna be really clean cut by the book, right?
SPEAKER_04Can I can I throw a metaphor out? Because I know how we love metaphors, and you tell me if it's right or wrong or correct it.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_04This phase seems like when you put a pair of binoculars up to your face, and maybe you're trying to, you know, scan a hillside at a national park looking for a free-range buffalo. You put those up to your eyes and they're not always focused. But then as you start to move the focus dial, you start to get more information. And so as you start to get more information, things become clearer and you're able to realize I don't know, that that you're you're able to achieve what you're trying to achieve, which is to see across this field or whatever.
SPEAKER_03No?
SPEAKER_04You're looking at me like I'm crazy. Alright, never mind. I'm just imagining the the this step seems like it's about providing clarity on on an it on a memory. Is that right or wrong? And and it's more than that. I'm trying to really simplify it, but that's how I like to do things.
SPEAKER_00Okay. You're hitting it. What I'm struggling with is remember earlier I said Yeah. Yeah. Like not that I didn't want to dive in too much specifically to to what it looks like for folks, because I'd I'd never want somebody to I will tell you as an EMDR clinician that it is very difficult now for me to do EMDR as a client.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00There is a point where you know too much.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha. Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so I tell clients, like, I want you to know enough about EMDR that you feel comfortable proceeding. And also there is a point where it starts to become too much of a cognitive experience for you. Here's what I'll say about your metaphor. But I'm not going to explain myself. Okay.
SPEAKER_04So perfect. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I know, right? Okay. This phase would be most like scanning the horizon for a buffalo, it being blurry, you zoom in, it gets clear, and then you zoom back out and it gets blurry again.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I'm just going to leave that there.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So I don't I don't know how helpful that will be to the listener. You heard it here, folks. But I do feel like that describes the experience for a lot of people. Again, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get into it more. I'm just gonna say we'll take it.
SPEAKER_04We'll take it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, let's talk about the therapist's role for just a second.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00The therapist's job is really to get out of the way as much as possible. Right. They are, I think of it as like what we're doing right now with our, we can say one year old. Our one year old had a birthday over the weekend. I think of it like what we're doing with our one-year-old when we let her play outside in the backyard. She's going to do what she needs to do to learn.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_00Like if we let her outside the backyard, and it's wonderful to set up like developmental activities and things like that, right? Like that's great. And also she'll go pull grass. Yes. Her brain and body is gonna do a lot of what it needs to do. We need to stand close to her, assess whether or not, you know, she picks up an acorn that she's gonna uh stuff in her mouth and then find three three more that you know, like true story from a few weeks ago. Like our jobs are really to just let her brain and body do the work and assess if she runs into a problem.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then know what to do to intervene and address that. Maybe not even a problem, because I don't think like her picking up an acorn and putting it in her mouth is a problem.
SPEAKER_04We just swallowing an acorn or choking on an acorn would be a problem. Right.
SPEAKER_00Like we we just need to like see whenever a little bit of assistance is needed and kind of provide as little, I think this is where it really hits. Provide as little intervention as possible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that she can just keep rolling with her process and we don't do too much to interrupt her process because it's a really good process if we'll just let it roll. So we, you know, things I see with new clinicians is they keep their BLS, their bilateral stimulation too short, they talk too much, they let people stay in a cognitive place and chat too often, they use interweaves too much, and we're gonna talk here in a moment about what interweaves are.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, if I were to say what's the most effective way for a clinician to allow phase four to happen, it's putting your one-year-old in the backyard and being close, but not seeing anything is a huge issue unless it is right. Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, obviously you see her crawling towards a a bird that has died in the backyard. Like, we're not gonna let you explore the dead birds. Right.
SPEAKER_00Like, we haven't had this happen, but like a copperheads randomly in the backyard, and I see her like three feet away from it. Like, that's a point where I'm sprinting.
SPEAKER_04We're not gonna scope, let her scope that out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but that doesn't happen very often in EMDR. More often it's oh, there's an acorn in your mouth. Let's like gently so a cognitive interweave. This is the most the most significant way that a clinician is intervening from just like following the basic protocol, which cut interweaves are part of the basic protocol, but without just recognizing like this client's really headed in a direction that's not great. I need to just like stop this and ground them and use grounding techniques. But an interweave is just when an individual is stuck and we can provide some sort of visual cognition, something that we think can help move them past this. Now, we talked about this in resourcing a little bit, but in an ideal world, this imagery, this cognition is not really coming from us. Remember, I had said I I like vicariously fall in love with grandmas often that it just been. Yeah, to my clients. I need to know grandma well enough that when we hit a barrier in phase four, that I am able to give a realistic piece of feedback, a realistic interweave of like, well, in this situation, don't you think grandma would come over and take your hand and tell you that you were enough?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that this was this was a bump. Because I know she called mistakes bump, like this was a bump. And that you were gonna keep going over the bump, right? And like that's an effective interweave. If I have to use my own words, I will, but that's like last-itch effort. I've done everything that I can before I do that. We want to try to use those resourced figures word, resourced figures words if we possibly can. So again, the clinician really is the clinician needs to contain, so we're not gonna go off to other memories. The clinician needs to come back to the original worst part. The clinician needs to provide an interweave, like I just explained, or the clinician needs to say, we're pausing and we're grounding. So we're doing things like, here's some essential oil for you to smell. What are five blue things that you see in the room? There's a lot of blue in my office, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But in an ideal world, the clinician is a parent in the backyard with their one-year-old just kind of standing back and observing.
SPEAKER_04Yep. I like that.
SPEAKER_00Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_04It makes complete sense to me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, let's check our time. I think we've done 31 minutes.
SPEAKER_04Hey.
SPEAKER_00It's not too bad.
SPEAKER_04It's not too bad for the meediest quote part of EMDR.
SPEAKER_00We did trail off a couple of times. We did. And one of our trails was not even about EMDR, it was about a puffer fish, which I am going to look into after this. The googit googit.
SPEAKER_03The googit. That's shorthand. I'm going googit. Uh that needs to be a part of a song.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Folks, thank you for listening to phase four. What are the eight phases of EMDR? We appreciate you. You will hear this in our outro, but all the things. If this is resonating with you and you want to share with a friend, or you want to give us five stars, or send us a question to admin at scene therapy.org. We are happy to feature a question on the podcast and happy to have your support. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04Thanks.
SPEAKER_00Have a wonderful day. Bye-bye. Well, that's all, folks. Please see our show notes for ways to connect with us or go give us a follow on Instagram. You can find us at Simply Mental. If this episode resonated with you, send it over to a friend. Give us a five star rating, subscribe, download all the things that cool kids are doing these days. Thanks for having me listen.