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Will EMDR Retraumatize Me?
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Hello friends! This episode features Cassandra and Garth, as they talk about whether EMDR can be re-traumatizing, why that fear is valid, and how preparation, resourcing, and commitment make EMDR a safe and effective therapy for trauma. They walk through how to assess readiness, the importance of support systems, and what it really means to move through the EMDR process in a way that leads to healing. You can learn more about Cassandra and her practice at: seentherapy.org. Get a taste for the episode below. If you enjoy your listen give us a follow, share, or five star review. Have a good one!
“This is a valid fear. I totally get it… we’re gonna resource, resource, resource… and we need a commitment from you to see EMDR through.”
Hello, hello, hello friends. Welcome to the podcast where we simplify everything about mental health. Just kidding. But here's what we are gonna do. We're gonna sit down together, a licensed mental health professional, that's me, and a regular old Joe, as my husband Garth would describe himself. We're gonna talk about the nitty-gritty of the MBR, some nervous system mapping, how couples can help each other heal, what's healthy parenting actually look like, maybe a little bit of good old banter mixed in. All with the goal of making mental health a little bit simpler for you. Which no, because my lawyer says that I have to. I'm a therapist, but not your therapist, unless I am. Even if I am, this is still just a podcast, okay? Have a good listen.
SPEAKER_04Hello, friends. This is Cassandra. As always, I am joined by Card.
SPEAKER_00Hey everybody.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, sir, for joining us. Of course. We are continuing to go through questions that I am seeing from clients, clo questions that we are seeing on the interweb in regards to EMDR. And this is one of those not quite age-old but long-standing questions for EMDR. And that's will I be re-traumatized in EMDR? So there are three primary things that I want to go over. One, this is a valid fear. I totally get it. Two, we're gonna resource, resource, resource. And three, we need a commitment from you to see EMDR through. Now I'm gonna elaborate on all of those three points, obviously, but that is the summary of the episode. So before we get rolling into that, Garth, bant us away, sir.
SPEAKER_00What is the strangest job you've ever held?
SPEAKER_04Oh man, strange in what way?
SPEAKER_00That's up to you.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I know you're strangest. You've actually got a pretty good strangest.
SPEAKER_00Which one? I've got a couple.
SPEAKER_04Let's see. Okay, the strangest job I've ever had.
SPEAKER_00And it could be kind of informally a job, too. Like something that you that you did that you were just, you know, compensated for.
SPEAKER_04You know, I always go first. I think I'm gonna have to go have you go first on this one because I'll listen, but I'll also kind of might let my wheels turn because I know exactly which one you're gonna say.
SPEAKER_00Do you?
SPEAKER_04I do.
SPEAKER_00When I was 16 years old.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I don't okay. I should have known this one. So you've had a couple. I was going to a college job, a C of O job, but you're gonna some weird ones there too. You're gonna go to death.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. When I was 16 years old, I had a little grass mowing empire, and the You really did the local funeral home asked if I could mow their grass, and I was like, sick. This is easy money. That grass has got to be looking good for all the services and stuff. I was like, awesome. And I'm of course, yes, I'm in. It turned out to be quite a job because they wouldn't let me use my riding mower, they wanted all of it push mode, and it was like, you know, a two-acre lot. It was huge, lots of trees around the parking lot and stuff like that. So that was kind of a big deal. And then they were like, hey, we'll give you X amount of money if you just come inside and help us with some stuff inside. And I was like, Well, sick, it's hot outside. Now they're gonna pay me to come inside in the air conditioning and do some work.
SPEAKER_04I'll definitely do it.
SPEAKER_00I'm in, I'm totally in. So, you know, I was setting up some chairs and I was like cleaning windows and changing light bulbs and you know, doing stuff like that. And then it got to the point where I was helping move move some stuff around that was not on the job description originally. You know, but it was all fully informed and I was cool with it, but but I I'm one of the few people that has driven a hearse and been in the back of a hearse at the same time, or not at the same time, but in the same life. Within the same year, a couple of years probably, yeah. We did a reenactment at our high school that was kind of terrible. I I don't know that it gets my stamp of approval.
SPEAKER_04They still do these, yeah. It was well-intentioned different ways to address these things, but anyway, we won't get on that soap of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we won't. But yeah, that was that was definitely my oddest job working at a funeral home where I thought I was just gonna be mowing grass, but ended up doing more than that.
SPEAKER_04So very good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I don't think I can share.
SPEAKER_01Okay. All right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I've I've run through, you know, why the ones when I was young were strange, and and there's some triggering stuff in there, and then I headed straight into a career where I'm a therapist. Um could not think of a single thing I could share.
SPEAKER_00Can I can I just throw one out there?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Work in the concession stand at a baseball field in the middle of nowhere is kind of an odd job.
SPEAKER_04Is it strange though?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. What what is strange?
SPEAKER_04That's fair.
SPEAKER_00You're shelling out sugar to a bunch of little kids. That's kind of kind of strange.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I enjoyed that for the little bit that I did it. Oh, I can share this one. In college, I was a like rec referee.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And when I got one, and when I got hired, I told them up front, I was like, look, here's the deal. I know nothing about football. Like, like there were some specific sports right that was like, I can rough basketball, got it down, like no issue.
SPEAKER_00To probably be a line judge in volleyball. Was it in or out? Totally got that.
SPEAKER_04I can go ump, like fine. Football in particular, like gonna be an issue for me. And of course, ever they were like, oh yeah, totally fine. But then pretty much everybody had to do everything. Um, so I had some interesting interactions with some fraternity brothers that were taking the flag football very seriously.
SPEAKER_00And flag football is life, yeah.
SPEAKER_04They also took basketball very seriously, but I was a good basketball round.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you knew the rules there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I would not say I was necessarily a fair flag football referee just because I didn't know how to be fair, it wasn't that I was trying to be unfair. No rules tonight, folks. Yeah, right, exactly. So anyway, yeah, I can share that one. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. Oh, I also got paid to do some research in college and had some fun stories from that. Now we've been panting for seven minutes, so I'll move on, but I do have some stories from that too. Anyway, okay, we're gonna go back to our three points.
SPEAKER_00Okay, three points.
SPEAKER_04All right. Will I be re-traumatized if I participate in EMDR?
SPEAKER_01Will you?
SPEAKER_04Right. My first point was that's a valid fear.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04And I want to elaborate on that a little bit. Okay. It is not always the right time to dive into EMDR. And I think sometimes I say this and people are like, oh, what? says the EMDR therapist.
SPEAKER_00You touched on this previously though, too. I think I know where you're headed with this.
SPEAKER_04I have talked about this before, right? And more often than not, if someone has been through something that is not only traumatizing, but also really life-altering, what I've seen as the most effective approach for them is that we in a contained way address the recent trauma and then we provide supportive therapy for a while before we go back and do anything else. So let's let's say someone's coming to me, they have, you know, chronic childhood trauma, but they also have this really difficult thing that just happened to them. Uh, I will either say, let's in a contained way reprocess or desensitize this recent trauma. Yeah. And then either myself or someone else provide you with some supportive therapy, and then we'll come back to these other things later. Yeah. Right. Or just let's get you into some supportive therapy. So the example I give often is this has happened more than once. Someone will reach out to me. A close friend has lost their spouse. So usually it's another woman reaching out to me. She's got a friend whose husband has died. Like I said, this has happened multiple times. We need to get her in. And my response is, okay, but what's the expectation of what this therapy is going to address?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Now is not the time to pull out all of this childhood trauma. Yes, metaphorical baggage. Uh, now is the time to come in and and support. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so I think it's a valid fear. Is this going to be re-traumatizing for me? And if you're in a really vulnerable spot, we always need to think about hierarchy of needs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What are some other things we need to be doing? We need to look at the whole person. What are some other things we need to be doing for this person before we just throw them into EMDR?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Right. Oh man, this'll really get me on a soapbox. But like the the practice of sitting Shiva, the Jewish practice of sitting Shiva after someone has died.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think, and I'm saying this as a therapist, I think sometimes we're like, oh, something bad happened. Take them to therapy. Right. Yeah. And it's like I can do a lot to help someone who's had recent loss. Man, have you ever gone through a significant loss and had a friend who knew you before that loss who will just like sit with you? Right? Cause like I can't do that in the same way that a friend can. So anyway, I I don't want to completely go down that rabbit trail. But this idea that I'll be, you know, I'm afraid of being re-traumatized. Let's let's really check in on that. How vulnerable are we? Okay. That leads us right into the second point, unless you have anything else that you wanna Well, can you explain sitting Shiva?
SPEAKER_00That I am vaguely familiar with it, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So um I'll I'll butcher this and I don't want to be disrespectful. So I'm gonna be really general in an effort not to be disrespectful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But the idea is that we sit with people who have lost someone that they love, and there are very specific rules surrounding it, but we sit quietly with them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We don't, you know, the general concept is like we don't push them to do, we don't we we sit quietly with them in the uncomfortable feelings of their grief. And I think sometimes in a culture that is go, go, go, fix it, fix it, fix it, function at a higher level. Not always, but sometimes the motivation behind get this person to therapy is get them back to a place where they're they're back with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And that's not the natural process of grief.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_04So anyway, we Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Don't push people to get back to normal because if they've lost someone truly close to them, they've their normal has changed. And they need to figure out what that's gonna be and how that's gonna look and yeah, how they operate.
SPEAKER_04I think we've done an episode on like EMDR and grief.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But when there's traumatic loss, and I'm talking like loss where it's like when you look at your life, there's like before this happened and after this happened. So there's the there's the desensitization of the trauma itself, but then there's this separate work on like just allowing the person to experience the grief. And as a trauma therapist, I see my responsibility as like the more we can desensitize the trauma, the more they are able to just sit in the the grief, right? But we're getting way off track.
SPEAKER_00We are way off track.
SPEAKER_04My original point was it is valid to be concerned that you're going to be re-traumatized with EMDR. You need to consider and you need to talk with your clinician, and they need to consider what are some areas of vulnerability for you and how do we plan for those areas of vulnerability? Okay, so that leads me into my second point. Resourcing, resourcing, resourcing. Uh we have used, you know, how stress, how where are our stressors? How stressed are we? Uh, and where are resources, like how well resourced are we as an indicator of what do we need to provide this person before they move forward with later phases of EMDR?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right. You cannot make up for the fact that you have no one to leave session and talk to about your experience in session.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04In session. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like I cannot compensate for you having no one to leave session and process session with if you need to. I cannot possibly meet with you once a week and compensate for that. So that's even a good question for clinicians to ask and for clients to ask themselves ask themselves. As we did an episode a few episodes ago on like, how can I support someone that I love through EMDR? If you have no one to share that episode with, yeah, you need more resourcing before you go into later phases of EMDR. Like you just do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So would you ever ask who are your people and say someone says, yeah, my spouse? But then would you recommend EMDR if that spouse is going through something at the moment? Maybe a familial loss or a new job or postpartum or you know, whatever. Would would you recommend maybe if that's their resource, that's their person that they're gonna talk to about, just waiting a month or two, letting that thing settle there a little?
SPEAKER_04Well, hopefully we're not putting all of our eggs in one basket and we have more than one support person, right? But if we truly did just have one support person, I think rather than just waiting, I'd be looking at like what what are the barriers that are keeping us from having that just that one support person?
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_04And not that we can control them, but have you mentioned therapy to them? Was this a shared trauma? Um, do you you know, would you guys be able to go through couples counseling together and work to desensitize this together if it was a shared trauma? You know, what what are our options here? When I come up against some, you know, I think earlier on in my career when I would come up with come up against somebody being low resourced, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but I feel like I just sat in it for longer, like, okay, this is kind of what it is. I'm certainly more upfront and confrontational isn't necessarily the one that the word that I want to use, but I'm just very straightforward with clients, right? So a decade ago, I wouldn't have said to someone, like, hey, here's the deal. You not relying on your friends in this way is really significantly holding you back and it's going to keep holding you back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I would totally say that to somebody today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then I would say, what are we gonna do about it? Right. Let's figure out what we're doing about it. And like, let's let's move, let's move forward, right? So I think it is a protective factor in every area of life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04How many deep relationships you have and how much how willing you are to lean into uh those deep relationships? It's certainly a protective factor in EMDR. So if you're concerned about being re-traumatized, let's take a moment and look at the rest of your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04How well resourced are you? Not just externally, but internally. Okay. So externally, how well resourced are you? We just talked about that. Internally, how well resourced are you? When you notice yourself getting easily upset, or not necessarily easily, when you notice yourself getting upset, are you able to without without outside intervention calm yourself down within three to five minutes?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Right. Again, your therapists should be assessing for that, but that's something you can assess for yourself as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04How many friends do I have that I'm really talking to, honestly, about life? And what's their responsiveness and attunement to me? And then how am I able to day to day calm myself down? If I'm getting upset, you know, three times throughout the day, am I able to get to a good spot in, like I said, three to five minutes? Or is it taking me two hours?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That makes you vulnerable to having a difficult EMDR experience. You should be doing a lot of resourcing before you move on to later EMDR phases. Your clinician should be assessing for that, but that's something if you're a potential client listening, EMDR client, whether you see us or someone else, tell your therapist that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I'm getting upset and it's taking me five hours to work through it, right? Yeah. I I tell people the drive-home rule. You have a stressful job, you're driving home. Do you notice your ability? And I'm talking like a reasonable drive, not like an hour and a half. Yeah. Do you notice that you have the ability to regulate before your feet hit the floor at home? That's a good rule of thumb. If you don't, we need to do some resourcing before you're getting into later EMDR phases. Yeah. Does that make sense? Makes sense. And then my last point is if you are concerned about being re-traumatized in EMDR, I know this seems counterintuitive, but the best thing that you can do for yourself is say, I am committed to this process. And here's the really important part. And I tell clients this whenever they're concerned about re-traumatization, but really anything in EMDR. I want you to commit to this process, even if it's not that you're committing to it and I'm seeing you through it all the way. If you're concerned about re-traumatization in EMDR, not getting to a certain point, I just need you to commit to this process for you know what I'll usually give a timeline six months, a year, a year and a half. Yeah. Right. And if at any point you feel like Cassandra isn't getting me as far as I need to go or getting me there as quickly, that's okay. Go to imdria.org, get on the directory, find somebody else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But if you're concerned about retraumatization, again, I know it seems counterintuitive, but commit to the process.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Because if you have big things come up, keep moving through it with someone that's experienced. Yeah. Right. Like don't sit in it. As long as you make that commitment, it's gonna be okay. Yeah. You have to make that commitment. And I really do, I'll tell people like you don't have to see me, but can you commit to I am doing EMDR? Like I'm I'm starting it. I'm starting later phases this week, but I am committing to it for the next year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Go see somebody else if you need to. This is an internal commitment. This is not a Cassandra commitment. This is yeah, you know, go tell your partner, go tell your best friend, tell somebody that you're committing to this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Does that make sense as well? Like I said, I know that sounds a little counterintuitive, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, it sounds like you're saying once you start, you will you'll get the full. Value of the process after you've gone through it. And like stopping partway is not going to provide relief. It's not going to provide help.
SPEAKER_04Well, and the reality is sometimes you do have symptom increase. Right. And so a commitment to yourself that okay, things may get worse. And when things do work get worse, I'm not going to stop. I'm going to keep moving forward. Is that it would be the same as saying, you know, six months from now, I have I'm signing up for a marathon. I'm going to train. Yeah. From now until that marathon in in six months. I'm committing to this process, knowing that I may have to switch personal trainers. There, I personal trainer I'm working with may not be for me or may not have hours that work for me.
SPEAKER_00My shoes may need they may go out on me. They may not work.
SPEAKER_04I may have to change shoes. There may be lots of barriers. I'm committing to this process. The piece that I have control of over is continuing to show up every day and train for this marathon, and I'm going to do it. Right. Um, another consideration in making this commitment, when you said changing shoes, it made me think of, yeah, sometimes it's not even just the therapist, right? But sometimes it's moving from I just did this with a client, we're kind of experimenting in the best schedule for them. And right now we're moving to two-hour appointments every two weeks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And sometimes it's that, right? Sometimes it's how do I give myself enough time in therapy while also giving my brain and my body enough of a break in between sessions. So recalibrating for you and continuing to keep this commitment may look like I can't do weekly sessions, but I can move to monthly intensives. That's what me continuing this process looks like.
SPEAKER_00Great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's changing shoes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You're keeping the same personal trainer.
SPEAKER_00You felt some friction, you got a blister, you didn't stop, you got new shoes. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Or some really good socks. Sometimes that makes sense. Sometimes yeah, I think that that's huge. I'm committing to this process. Period. I am doing it. I I'll even say, let's even step back from EMDR for a minute, right? Like for whatever reason, we've talked, we had a recent episode, who does EMDR not work for? God forbid you have something like neurological come up in the midst of this, and let let's shift to trauma-focused CBT, right? Like make a commitment to yourself that you're doing this for a certain period of time. Come hell or high water.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04That's so important. Yeah. It really is. I have seen more so not really honestly, not recently. And I'm not just saying that, I really haven't seen it recently, but early on in my career, I have seen people stop EMDR too quickly. And it's tough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like I've seen people stop when it got worse before they reached symptom reduction. Not often, but it happened. And part of that was me being green and not having the language to that I have now. Right.
SPEAKER_00To ensure their full commitment to the process and explain the process. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna summarize and we're gonna have another episode under 30 minutes. Look at us. Okay.
SPEAKER_00We're getting better at this. It's only taken what?
SPEAKER_04We've been doing this weekly since September.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, so 10 months.
SPEAKER_04Eventually we learned. You know.
SPEAKER_00Not 10 months. Bad at math. Go ahead. Whatever.
SPEAKER_04Will I be re-traumatized in the MDR? One, that's a valid fear. Uh I understand it. I get it. And I think it's important to assess how vulnerable you are. What are your stressors? What are your supports? The two S's. And if it's, you know, you're identifying 20 stressors and zero supports, we need to. This takes us into our second point, be spending a lot of time resourcing. And we can do a lot of early phase EMDR work without getting to later phase EMDR work. We have walked through the phases of EMDR in an earlier episode. We should do another phase episode soon. Yeah. That would be really great.
SPEAKER_00Maybe we could do a series on each step.
SPEAKER_04Each phase. That would be a good idea. I would love to do a summary episode of all the phases and then a deep dive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_04And then the last one, make a commitment. I am engaging in this for this period of time. If I need to change my socks, if I need to change my personal trainer, aka, if I need to change how I'm doing EMDR, moving from weekly sessions to an intensive, you know, even changing personal trainers, changing therapists, I'm gonna do that, but I'm making this commitment to myself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04All right. Well, guys, thank you so much for the listen. We appreciate you. If you have any burning EMDR questions and you want to submit them to admin at scene therapy.org, you can do that. As always, we will be back next week. Thanks so much. We'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_01Bye.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's all, folks.
SPEAKER_03Please see our show notes for ways to connect with us or go give us a follow on Instagram. You can find us at Simply Mental. If this episode resonated with you, send it over to a friend. Give us a five star rating, subscribe, download all the things the cool kids are doing these days. Thanks for having me listen.