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Where Does Anxiety Come From? (And How Do We Actually Treat It?)
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Hello friends! This episode continues the anxiety series featuring Cassandra and Garth (and two kid cameos) talking about where anxiety actually comes from, three childhood parenting patterns that wire anxiety into the nervous system, the difference between an anxiety disorder and anxious attachment, and why EMDR treats anxiety at the root. Cassandra is a licensed therapist and EMDR Consultant at Seen Therapy Services in Springfield, Missouri, offering EMDR therapy, EMDR intensives, and couples counseling in person and via telehealth throughout Missouri. Visit seentherapy.org or call 417-708-7909 to get started. Get a taste for the episode below. If you enjoy your listen, give us a follow, share, or five star review. Have a good one!
"EMDR doesn't just treat PTSD. It treats symptoms that result from a loss of safety, whether that's physical safety, emotional safety, or social safety. And so much anxiety is exactly that."
Hello, hello, hello friends. Welcome to the podcast where we simplify everything about mental health. Just kidding. But here's what we are gonna do. We're gonna sit down together, a licensed mental health professional, that's me, and a regular old Joe, as my husband Garth would describe himself. We're gonna talk about the nitty-gritty of the MBR, some nervous system mapping, how couples can help each other heal, what's healthy parenting actually look like, maybe a little bit of good old banter mixed in. All with the goal of making mental health a little bit simpler for you. Quick note, because my lawyer says that I have to. I'm a therapist, but not your therapist, unless I am. Even if I am, this is still just a podcast, okay? Now have a good listen. Hello, friends. We are talking anxiety again today. Where does anxiety come from? How do we treat it? We are answering that today. We have been more question and answer in our last couple of podcast episodes. We have not loved that. And I have tried having notes on my screen. I haven't loved that. I'm already noticing with my notes that I am looking down as I'm looking at my notes, but we're gonna roll with it. Video is new for us, it's a learning curve, and uh yeah, we're gonna get to it. Garth, thanks for joining.
SPEAKER_03Of course. Happy to be here. My busy schedule, I've cleared it.
SPEAKER_02At the kids to bed.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02We're ready to roll. Okay. What do you have to bant us with today, sir?
SPEAKER_03Hmm, okay. So today I would like to know your favorite warm drink. Hmm. Hmm. And it's very hot here right now. You know, we're very beginning of September and it's very hot, but got on my mind a warm drink because I think I'm dreaming of cooler weather. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02This week, I think it's the start of school. It's like, okay, it's fall weather time now.
SPEAKER_03Should be, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. So in my head, I'm going back and forth between a dirty chai tea latte and a, you know, I'm really liking mushroom coffee lately. So a mushroom coffee with but not just mushroom.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Okay.
SPEAKER_02But I've also had it without a shot of espresso, just as good. Yeah. Just no caffeine. Yeah. So anyway. I also the past couple of years have made apple cider for the kids, like hot apple cider, and you've made some hot apple cider. That's also very lovely in the fall.
SPEAKER_03So it's it's very good. Yep.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. If I had to pick a favorite, like right now, right now, it would be the mushroom coffee.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03There you go, folks.
SPEAKER_02Okay. How about you? What's your favorite?
SPEAKER_03My favorite warm drink is coffee.
SPEAKER_02Just black.
SPEAKER_03Black. You know, and I have a I have a soft spot. I love really good, just like a drip coffee. I also love cheap drip coffee.
SPEAKER_01You do?
SPEAKER_03There's like there's it it's nostalgic. In college, I worked at a writing center. You know, my background as an English teacher, I thought that would be good for my future. And they w had a coffee pot. And so we would all, poor, broke college students, pitch in some money and buy the most coffee with the least amount of money that we could get. And at the time, Cafe Busuelo was very cheap. And it was very strong. And we I mean, I I had a problem at a certain point in college. I was drinking like a pot of coffee a day or more. Um whenever I would go in to work there. And it was yeah, but that that's my favorite. I I just like some black coffee, maybe sometimes uh a smidge of sugar in there, just uh cut the acidity a little bit, but most of the time just a black coffee. That's my favorite hot drink.
SPEAKER_02Black, ready-to-roll cheap coffee. Yep. Do you like McDonald's coffee?
SPEAKER_03No. No. Okay. No. They're too fancy.
SPEAKER_02Hashtag not a sponsor.
SPEAKER_03No. I'm I I it either has to be like really cheap or really good. I don't like the middle ground, right? The you know, growing up.
SPEAKER_02You know what? I wouldn't I wouldn't have been able to say that, but I knew that.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's like the cheap stuff has a has a soft spar soft spot in my heart. Um but I really like the good stuff, don't get me wrong. I appreciate that. But also if it's just like gas station coffee, sign me up. That's that's just a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're you're not a you're not a middle spectrum guy.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, yeah, no. Yeah, I can appreciate the the cheap stuff and I can appreciate the good stuff, but like if you're in the middle, what are you doing? Pick a lane. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Okay, well, we're five minutes in and we're still banting, sir. It's a good band. It was. It was a good bant question. Why don't you get us rolling? Where does anxiety come from? What are what are just kind of we're in this anxiety series? Like what what are your thoughts like as a quote unquote lay person? What comes up for you when you think about where anxiety comes from comes from?
SPEAKER_03Anxiety comes from uncertainty.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03That that's that's it. That's all I had. Yep.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's fear. That's fear. That's fear.
SPEAKER_03I think I think it's fear. Yeah, yeah. Fear of uncertainty. Yeah. I think I think that to me, and no clinical knowledge here, don't take any of this with um, don't even take it with a grain of salt. Don't think about it. No salt with this, even. No salt. But I think anxiety inherently comes from a place of being uncertain. You are uncertain about what you're supposed to do, how you're supposed to react. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So then the question is like, where does that uncertainty come from?
SPEAKER_03Sure. Yeah. Are you asking? Right? Like what yeah, mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, just what's the root of that uncertainty, right?
SPEAKER_03Oh, it could be so many things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I I think you know, types of parenting and chronic trauma in childhood are certainly not the root of all anxiety. And before we really get rolling, I want to say anxiety symptoms can pop up when you have low blood sugar. Like low blood sugar will trigger your sympathetic nervous system, right? So what we're talking about today certainly does not account for all anxiety that all people feel, right? And as therapists, we need to be screening out for things like that, right? Like, you know, this person has a sugar issue that's leading to these anxiety symptoms. Like, we need to have a whole person mindset and and be considering things like that. You know, like it is their social media addiction contributing to their anxiety symptoms, right? But, you know, you had said anxiety is uncertainty. If we think of how chronic childhood trauma, how how parenting in childhood even can bring about anxiety later. I think for me, when I'm working with clients, like three different types of parenting come up uh as leading to anxiety down the road. One is parents that are at the very least inconsistent and at the very most like actually abusive, right? Like that creates anxiety. Um, when am I going to be hurt next? What what is going to happen next that I'm going to have to deal with? And then I think parents that are very anxious themselves, then you know, that kid's nervous system is mapping, like, okay, this is how we function, right?
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02And then I I think three parents that are lower functioning, and that's on a huge spectrum. That doesn't necessarily mean like there are huge deficits for that parent, right? It can mean, you know, that they're not functioning in a way that allows them to get to their their kid to school on time consistently.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Or, you know, buy the birthday gift for the third time in a row for a kid's birthday party, right? Like they're they're not able to do some of these like daily or weekly living tasks that their child needs them to do. Maybe they have ADHD, maybe they have some cognitive deficits, right? And those situations then lead to anxiety for the kid because they're now taking responsibility of um those things in a lot of cases, right? And they're not ready for that responsibility. And so then that's creating an anxious nervous system for them. So I think those three types of of parenting can really lead to uh a child feeling pretty anxious later on in life.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Does that track for you? No, totally.
SPEAKER_02All three of those types of parenting are gonna lead to uncertainty. Right? Am I uncertain when I'm gonna be hurt next? Am I uncertain because my parent is uncertain, and I am certain that my parent is gonna show up, or that like people are gonna show up for for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, so you you're addressing chronic anxiety, I think, right? I was I was speaking towards anxiety as a whole, but I think they're connected for sure. You know, whenever I say uncertainty, I was thinking like, if you're in a crowd of people and someone's acting weird, well, my anxiety spikes. Because what's what are they gonna do, right? I I don't know. How do I keep myself safe in here? But you're tying in this chronic anxiety in a way that also fits that perfectly. What is my parent gonna do, right? Whether it's hurt me or not show up or just be, you know, really on edge themselves, that that fits. So yeah, I I feel good about my answer of uncertainty.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think when you say I'm talking about chronic anxiety, it was either the last episode or the episode prior. We had talked about like anxiety is not a dirty word.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Right? Like we've kind of made it into this, it has a negative connotation with it. But if if we say today, we've defined it a little bit differently in previous episodes, but if we say today, anxiety is uncertainty, I probably do want to feel a little uncertain if I'm in a crowd and someone's acting kind of off, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's got value in some it has value until it doesn't. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. So like when I'm feeling uncertain sitting on my back porch in my really safe house, right? And nothing has really prompted that uncertainty, nothing has really prompted that feeling of anxiety. Anxiety becomes a problem when we're feeling we're having that body response and it's not warranted and you know by anything that's happening externally around us. Yeah. Um, so I I think we're saying the same thing, right? You were talking about in the short term feeling uncertain. I was talking about when do people kind of chronically feel anxious, and there's not any grounded reason for them to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02So the next thing I wanted to chat a little bit about is what does anxious attachment mean? And what is the difference between an anxiety disorder and an anxious attachment pattern?
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, you tell me. What is the difference, counselor?
SPEAKER_02Well cu I again, I'm I'm turning it over to you for a minute. What comes up first? Like whenever you hear anxiety disorder versus anxious attachment pattern, what comes up?
SPEAKER_03I think for me, if I think anxiety disorder, I'm thinking about just generally there's always something causing anxiety. Always, right? There's always a source.
SPEAKER_02Um do we have a visitor?
SPEAKER_03I have a visitor, yep.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Alright, be right back.
SPEAKER_02We finish the interruption of this broadcast to bring you back to anxiety. Okay. I right. Which speaking of, I think that was our five-year-old who usually is not up and about at this point, but it is the first week of school, and I think she's feeling a little bit of uncertainty and change in routine and all of the things. So anyway. Okay, we were right in the middle of talking about the difference between an anxiety disorder and an anxious attachment style. And I think you were headed in a really good direction that I am going to clinically agree with. Do you remember where you were?
SPEAKER_03Not a clue, but I'll try again. Let's see. So what was I talking about first? The first one I was talking about was clinical anxiety, right?
SPEAKER_02You were talking about and disordered anxiety is like consistent. It's coming up in lots of different situations.
SPEAKER_03Where there's not necessarily a reason for it to be. Um, and I think an anxious attachment style has a reason. You know, it it's based on the way that you attach. It's based on the way that you have seen relationships work growing up, and now you are worried about them in a way that brings you anxiety, but also it's just a um, I mean, probably an ineffective way to show love in a relationship, maybe. I don't know. It's it's not the most effective way, not ineffective, but not the most effective.
SPEAKER_02So I don't know that you're completely wrong about everything, but I I do I first of all, the effort That's a win.
SPEAKER_03That's a win. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02The effort was there. I I do think we can we can address it in a little less complicated way, though, if that's fair. Also, I'm loving this, like you give it a first swing as like the again, quote unquote lay person, and then we we fill in the blanks from there, but you're like, yeah, yeah, put me on the spot. Sure, let's do that every time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, make fun of me for my opinions, fine.
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. Here's I think how to put it most simply though anxious attachment styles are within relationship, and I'd even say within intimate relationship. It's okay, it's it's anxious response to it's anxious response within relationship, particularly intimate relationship. The closer a relationship is when someone has an anxious attachment style, the more anxious they are going to be that they are going to then leave. So it's, you know, over and over and over again, I hear spouses say they don't act like this with anyone else. Like a person with an anxious attachment style is showing that they have an anxious attachment style within their marriage, but they're not showing it necessarily in other relationships. Maybe they're showing it within their marriage and like a couple of really close friendships, but not showing it in more surface level relationships. So I think the main difference between an anxiety disorder and an anxious attachment style would be that the attachment style is just within relationship. Whereas you know, you know, angx go ahead.
SPEAKER_03What about at work? I know we've done other podcast episodes where anxious attachment shows up at work as well.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yep, absolutely. But how close, what do your relationships at work mean to you? Anxious attachment styles often do show up at work. Not for everybody though, but for some people, they really are only showing up in like a couple of intimate relationships and they're not crossing over into work. But anyway, difference between attachment style, anxiety disorder, attachment style is specific to relationship, particularly intimate relationship, and our anxious responses within that relationship. Yeah. I I liked your answer though. I was here for it.
SPEAKER_03Hey, just a just a shot in the dark.
SPEAKER_02So you know, the big question I wanted to answer in this podcast is anxiety often unresolved childhood stuff?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know. I I think probably. Or not childhood stuff. You want me to take another swing at this as the average Joe?
SPEAKER_02Go for it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I think anxiety is probably, you know, a lot of everyone has anxiety. Everyone is anxious about things. You should be, right? There are certain things that you just need to be anxious about, you know. If I'm pumping the ass.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Everyone exper everyone experiences an anxiety response.
SPEAKER_03Okay, sure. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I just I I think people say they use I have anxiety as I have an anxiety disorder.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. So the distinction is everyone experiences an anxiety response. You should. Right. There are things.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, I interrupted you. You're pumping gas, what happens?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if you're if you're pumping gas, you know, at night and a big shady van rolls up and you know, it's got a duct taped window, and you know, it you were painting the picture for us. Yeah, I'm I'm painting the picture. It's all about imagery, right? And someone gets out and staggers around the van, and you're like, okay, you you should like you should notice that. You should notice that, and you should say, hmm, okay, I'm gonna pay closer attention to this.
SPEAKER_02We've got a visitor again, don't we?
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, ladies and gentlemen, we could not possibly have predicted this, but we are returning from our second interruption of this broadcast. It's an advanced for your patients.
SPEAKER_03For any sponsors that want to sponsor this episode. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Anybody?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you were lining out for us what we have talked about in a previous recent episode in this anxiety series, which is that anxiety is not a bad thing. We should have anxiety come up, an anxiety response come up for us in certain situations. Van duct taped window, behavior that is questionable at gas station should elicit an a response from us. Yes. The stereotypical big white van. The duct tape does add a layer, I think.
SPEAKER_03I I yeah, I've I mean I've seen it, and it does. It's vivid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The cardboard, the broken window cardboard, duct tape situation to to make it fixed. I don't I don't know, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm gonna be honest, I don't know how we got there. The question that I had asked was so is anxiety often unresolved childhood stuff? Yes. Oh, and then I think you were saying, yeah, sure. And anxiety should come up for us often, which yes, yes, yes, yes. But if we're talking disordered anxiety, anxiety that is not advantageous for us, is that often childhood stuff? And to that, I would say, yes, I think it often is. Now, we said at the beginning of this episode, like blood sugar issues will create a sympathetic response in our nervous system, right? So like, are we definitely dealing with childhood? Can like things that stem from childhood here? Not necessarily, right? But is it most of the anxiety that I see in my practice? Also, yes, that is that is true, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and we're not necessarily dealing with anxiety resulting from like big T trauma in childhood, anxiety in adulthood, disordered anxiety, anxiety that is not rooted in reality, that is not working in our favor. It also comes up, it looks like you know, the little girl who was raised by all accounts a wonderful mother, but a mother who had a lot of anxiety herself and was a very anxious person and existed for the first few years of that child's life with a lot of anxiety. That that little girl is likely going to grow up to be a young woman, a woman whose nervous system was programmed to be anxious even when they didn't need to be anxious, right? Even when there wasn't necessarily a rational anxiety response or anxious response. So this is why EMDR can work so effectively in treating anxiety, is because so much anxiety is rooted in past situations, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, so much anxiety is rooted in not getting to school on time, a parent that was abusive, you know, a parent that was too hard on us in in little league. Like there's this huge spectrum of circumstances that can contribute to anxiety later in life. So we keep coming back to this idea that EMDR doesn't just treat PTSD, right? It treats symptoms that result from a loss of safety.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, whether that be physical safety, emotional safety, social safety, EMDR treats symptoms that result as a loss of safety. And so EMDR can treat anxiety really, really effectively, getting to the root of what started the anxiety in the first place, the memories and the beliefs that formed around anxiety. Now, whenever we're talking like chronic anxiety symptoms that have stemmed from chronic childhood trauma, for instance, EMDR isn't the only thing that we're gonna like we're we're gonna pack like a one-two punch with that, because we need to be using EMDR, but then there's this whole scaffolding of behavior that's developed as a result of years and years and years and years and years of disordered anxiety, and that scaffolding of behavior is gonna need to be brought down to, right? So when we're talking like chronic anxiety that's existed for decades, EMDR can be a huge part in treating that, but not the only part.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I think it's wrap-up time. I think it is.
SPEAKER_03But when it is clouding everything, even things that like it's really like you have no reason to be anxious about, maybe maybe do a little do a little tune-up with the old therapist.
SPEAKER_02And can I add on the end, when you respond to the email and still 12 hours later you you're circling on it, right? I think especially when we experience an anxiety response, but then we act, we we take some action, and we're still noticing even hours later that that feeling hasn't dissipated. That's a real indicator. Like, go see somebody. You did a great summary, thank you.
SPEAKER_03Oh, thanks.
SPEAKER_02All right. Two interruptions. We kept it rolling for the parents that are listening to this. Thank you for the camaraderie. Um, if you're doing a podcast, you know. It really, if you're trying to do anything as a parent, you know you get it.
SPEAKER_03I I wanna I want to reframe those not as interruptions, but sponsorship opportunities.
SPEAKER_02We should ask the kids to sponsor us. We are sponsored by the kids. Maybe one day we'll be sponsored by the kids.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they don't have any money.
SPEAKER_02We we currently sponsor our our five-year-old does sponsor some ice cream trips sometimes, so maybe she makes a killer lemonade stand. So she does. All right. Thanks for the listen, folks. We hope you come back again soon. Bye-bye. Well, that's all, folks. Please see our show notes for ways to connect with us or go give us a follow on Instagram. You can find us at Simply Mintal. If this episode resonated with you, send it over to a friend. Give us a five star rating, subscribe, download all the things the cool kids are doing these days. Thanks for having me listen.