workshops work Podcast
This is a podcast about facilitation: the practice of creating conditions for people to think better together.
Whether you’re leading strategy, navigating change or developing leaders, the quality of your conversations shapes the quality of your decisions.
Hosted by Dr Myriam Hadnes, behavioural economist, facilitator and founder of workshops.work, each episode explores the human dynamics of working together: how psychological safety is built, why some conversations lead to action while others stall, how leaders foster genuine participation, and what behavioural science can teach us about collaboration. Alongside these conversations, Dr Hadnes shares reflections from her own client work, offering practical insights from the realities of designing and facilitating workshops in organisations.
Recognised as the facilitation community’s most-recommended podcast in SessionLab’s State of Facilitation reports from 2024 to 2026, the show has grown into an archive of more than 350 conversations spanning the craft, the inner work, and the unexpected edges of facilitation. Whether you’re a facilitator, leader, consultant or L&D professional, you'll come away with sharper questions and a few ideas worth borrowing.
workshops work Podcast
008 - How to handle ineffective power differences in meetings with Marcel van de Hoef
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, I talk to Marcel van de Hoef, a journalist, coach, and podcaster. Marcel hosts The Meeting Strategist podcast and helps leaders to transmit their mission through mass communication formats. Everything he does has to do with communication, so we talk about power structures in conversations and namely in meetings and workshops.
In the show, Marcel shares how he raises awareness of the impact of power differences to reduce ineffective effects on conversations. We also speak about journalism, leadership, and how to use power for role modelling.
Don’t miss the part when Marcel shared his experience being an editor in chief at age 22 and what he would do differently today. The conversation will inspire you to reduce unproductive power in workshops to make them work.
Questions and Answers
[2:28] How did you get interested in the topic of power? What’s your story?
[12:01] How would you define “unproductive power differences”?
[14:33] How can we avoid the negative impact of power differences?
[16:05] So power differences are not necessarily tied to differences in a hierarchy?
[18:00] In the context of professional gatherings, how can you make participants become aware of such power differences?
[22:21] When you feel power differences, how can you get participants to share information without risking the safe space?
[27:27] Do you have a trick that helps those in power to lower their guards in meetings or workshops?
[33:01] What is the role of ego in power games?
[35:51] What is the magic ingredient that distinguishes a good from a bad meeting?
[38:18] How can you keep the balance between contributing, connecting and time boxing in a meeting with a tight agenda?
[47:26] If a listener just woke up and missed the core part of the show, what do you want them to remember?
Related links you may want to check out:
- Marcel’s website, including his blog and podcast: www.meetingstrategist.org
- Marcel’s mentor Mauk Mulder http://maukmulder.nl/ (in Dutch) and an article in English
- Priya Parker’s book: The Art of Gathering
- Celeste Headlee on Coaching for Leaders
- Amy Edmondson’s case study of the Chilean mine rescue
- Marcel’s conversation with Oscar Trimboli on Deep Listening
- Dale Carnegie’s book: How to win friends and influence people
- Marcel’s short blog about Dale Carnegie’s book
Connect to Marcel:
Any thoughts? Share them with us!
👉 What happens when being “professional” gets in the way of being human? My new podcast Unprofessionalism explores the rules we’re taught to follow at work, and what happens when we break them. Listen here: https://unprofessionalism.buzzsprout.com/ 👈
What if your next team workshop delivered the results you hoped for? What if everyone believed that the working session was a valuable use of their time? And what if they felt inspired to take action right after? My name is Miriam Hatness, and it is my mission to help you to deliver workshops that work. Today with me on the show is Marcel, journalist, writer, publisher, and podcaster himself. I reached out to Marcel after listening to his show on deep listening. So today we'll speak about power and how to handle power differences in meetings and workshops. Welcome to the show, Marcel.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Miriam.
SPEAKER_00And thank you for hosting this recording in your place.
SPEAKER_04Oh, hosting, yes. Yes, sure.
SPEAKER_00Beautiful sunshine outside.
SPEAKER_04We are inside.
SPEAKER_00So we're inside, but at least I can see the blue sky from inside. So I introduced you as journalist, publisher, podcaster. How would you consider yourself? What would be your hashtag?
SPEAKER_04Hashtag. Because the tagline of my communication agency is also think clearly, communicate effectively. Because I think if you want to communicate effectively, you have to be aware of what you want to achieve, who's in front of you. So it's you know, everything I do have has to do with communication to some extent, whether it's mass communication, which is related to my previous job as a journalist, or whether it's interpersonal communication, which is more part of what I'm doing right now with my meeting strategist podcast, um, and with you know the coaching and the training uh that I'm embarking on. Um so yeah, a communication thinker would be it, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Communication thinker.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, does that sound all right?
SPEAKER_00I think that sounds brilliant. I really like that. Um, and today we're we are meeting to talk about power differences in conversation and communication, um, and namely in meetings and workshops. So, how did you come up with this topic? What's your story behind it?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's that's that's a long story. I think it started already in my my teenage years. Um back then I was a little bit of a nerdy guy, and I was really, you know, uh most of my life was about thinking and writing back then, and I was really interested in philosophy. Um, and for some reason I became interested in the concept of human wandering, uh, which is basically you know taking a premise which is not necessarily true, and then you build on that, and that leads, you know, to you know, for people to wander and to deviate from reality, and uh you know, and and later on I found out that that had more to do with biases and these these kind of things, basically your profession, right? Uh economic, you know, behavioral economics, that kind of stuff. Um but to some extent that had to do with power for me because when I uh went into journalism and became an editor-in-chief, one of my main things was that I, you know, I looked at journalism and I thought journalists are too much looking at each other, and uh, you know, and they uh sometimes start their stories on a false premise. And uh, you know, because of peer group pressure, because of hey, this newspaper has this on the front page, why don't we have that story? Um, you know, they create the same stories, all of them. Um, you know, and at some point I, you know, was one of the founders of a news agency that wanted to change this dynamic in journalism and create a new flavor at the source of news stories to make sure that journalists don't look at each other, but they look at the prime source of stories and you know base their stories on reality and then do their own thing and use their human capabilities to create their own unique stories. Um, so you know, when I was at some point um invited on national television to talk about this kind of stuff, you know, when I was uh an editor-in-chief, um uh a former social psychology professor, Malk Mulder, saw me on television and liked what I was talking about, and he sent me his book about power because he was you know a really prominent uh power expert. And you know, that was you know the start of you know a very long friendship. Um he unfortunately died two years ago at the age of 93. Um so he he had a long and rich life. Uh but um you know I worked with him a lot to talk about power, and um uh one of the things he tried to do also is to reduce unproductive power differences in meetings, in conversations, in organizations. He was on a couple of supervisory boards, and sometimes he was hired as a consultant to look at power dynamics within boards uh to make sure that you know the company still had the right dynamics going on to be productive and effective. Um, I think it's a really long answer to your question, but that's how it started. And um so and Mauck was also you know really one of the most influential people in my life when it comes to power theory.
SPEAKER_00And what you say makes me think of so what you said about journalists looking at each other makes me think that what you actually want in journalism in order to find the truth is to find each other's blind spot and not to look at each other but to maybe challenge each other and reveal the details that the other one doesn't see. And in order to have this kind of conversation, you cannot have these power games, right?
SPEAKER_04Uh I'm not sure if I get what you're saying. Uh uh usually, you know, the other journalists that I'm talking about are your competitors.
SPEAKER_02Ah, okay. So it's not your colleagues.
SPEAKER_04So it's so it's basically, you know, there's so many ways to report on the truth, and there's so many ways to report on the story. Or, you know, you know, if we would consider a press release the origin of a story, which which it's not because reality is the origin of a story. There's so many ways to write about a single press release, for example, and so many angles. And if there were not that many angles, why would you even need journalists? You would just need one, and then you would, you know, uh create an algorithm and you know create different stories out of that one story from a journalist, and one journalist would be the market maker, so to speak. So if you want, you know, to have a flourishing sector with uh, you know, in the Netherlands a couple thousand journalists, they have to do their own unique thing and they shouldn't be looking at each other too much. It's like you know, really plays into that whole, you know, really the stuff that you're interested in, like herd behavior and and group pressure, and it's really prevalent in journalism. And I think it's also one of the big dangers within journalism because you know, they're now robots and algorithms, and if you don't show why humans have a role in journalism, you know, being their unique selves, you using their you know, uh curiosity and storytelling skills, storytelling skills and and and uh you know all the stuff that you cannot capture in an algorithm, yeah. If you don't use that, then you know, every year five percent, ten percent of people working in journalism, you know, lose their jobs because you know there's no added value. So that's one of the things I get at some point I said like in a in an interview, and you know, mind you, this is like 15 years ago. Uh like 10 years from now, like 50% of all journalists, journalists will be out of a job. Um and uh that was just like you know, I was just picking that number out of thin air. Um, but the main thought was, you know, we have to look at you know who are we as human journalists and how can we add value to this? And and you know, that means not copying press releases and you know uh writing stories based on that, but just going out, talking to people and getting the story from the streets and and doing it in your own way and looking at the stuff that you find interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And in um the conversation we had just before we pressed the record button, you uh you mentioned the phrase information gathering conversation. That's what you did. And for me, this is a perfect link between what you did as a journalist and what you're now doing as a coach and as a consultant, um, that you lead information gathering conversations. Um and then you also you had a for me inspiring definition of what a workshop is. You said that a workshop is a po power-neutral way of communication.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_00Can you elaborate what you mean by that?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I think if you look at the word uh workshop, you know, it has work in it. Uh, and and and for me, it's really essence is whether it's in in the form of a training or whether it's a workshop to find solutions to problems. Uh, you want to activate the people in the group because you want to get the best out of them. Um, because otherwise, what's the point of having a workshop in the first place? So it's a tool and it provides tools. The the workshop platform provides tools for for activating people, for making people think. And um, you know, one of the you know, if you want to do that, you cannot have unproductive power. Because if if there's you know power in the room and it's not being addressed, then um people, you know, there there's one of you know one of the big neurological effects of power is that when you lack power, um, you know, you know, being powerless affects your you know the executive function of your brain. You know, it basically impairs your ability to think. You know, there's lots of you know, MRI scan, research, neurological studies that show that um power really makes people who are on the other side of it stupid to some extent. And and that's one of the reasons why you know the financial crisis happened because people just blindly followed their financial advices. That's that's also one of the first studies in this this area, by the way, that came out like 10 years ago. But the main story is you know it impairs your executive function of your brain. So, what you want to do is activate people and and make them think, and that's already one of the ways to reduce unproductive power differences.
SPEAKER_00How would you define unproductive power differences?
SPEAKER_04It's to me it's it's power that gets in the way of a genuine connection and and and a real conversation. Um, power has a certain physiological effect on people and it has a neurological effect on people. If you want to have a real conversation and you are threatening me all the time, for example, using coercion, which is a way, you know, one of the forms of power, um I feel intimidated. Um my brain shuts down, and I will be trying to get away with the conversation, and that's not a good basis for you know great things to happen, for for people to you know put their best selves uh uh forward and you know showing up in the best possible way. So so that's yeah, that's in a nutshell what what unproductive power means to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've never seen a person being scared and inspired at the same time.
SPEAKER_04No, that's a good point. That's a good point. And that that's that's exactly it. Um, you know, so I think the neurological effect and and what it does to your body um is is really important because it's really hard to escape when it happens. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I wonder, given that power differences exist, we cannot cancel them out well. There are a few organizations who work on a management-free, um hierarchical free basis, but I think most of the organizations um still rely on power differences. So what causes this negative impact of these power differences?
SPEAKER_04How do you mean that?
SPEAKER_00So, for instance, they are there are bosses, they're middle managers, they're different hierarchies in any organization.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So these power differences exist, and this does not necessarily mean that they have a negative impact on the conversation or on a workshop structure. So what do you think causes this negative effect of power differences? Given that let me rephrase it, we cannot change the way power is structured, that we can maybe impact the way these power differences impact the conversation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I I if I I I get what you're saying. Um, I think power is everywhere in in any conversation. Um even maybe to some extent in the conversation that we're having right now, but we are both making a really conscious effort to reduce it because we want to have an open conversation. Um and um but but but it but it's everywhere, and I think one of the main things that I'm trying to achieve is to make people more aware of it that even if you think that you are the most you know egalitarian manager in the world, people on the other end, on the receiving end, might still feel that you are powerful, and that power might still be affecting them, um, and it might still lead people to not come up with the ideas that they want to share because they feel that you know they don't have the right to speak up, um, and you might think like everything is going fine and smoothly, and people don't bring a lot of ideas you know to the table during meetings because everything is running smoothly, but you know, the other person might feel that power is getting in the way.
SPEAKER_00So if I understand you correctly, according to your definition, power differences must not necessarily be tied to differences in hierarchy. But someone, even two people of the same hierarchical position, could have power differences.
SPEAKER_04Oh, definitely. So if we look at you know the theory of power, um there are a couple of you know forms of power, and and and what you're talking about authority, uh, is what I would call formal power. That's you know, the name on the door, uh the CEO, the position that you have, um, and and formal power comes in many ways. It can also be you know the rules that are enforced during a meeting, that's also some some constitutional kind of power, so so so to speak, structured power, legitimized power, that's another word for it. Um, but you also have uh expert power, and when you have two people you know of the same organizational level, um there might still be power differences between them because one is considered more of an expert uh in a certain field than the other one. Um, and then there is something like charismatic power, uh, which might you know cause you know a power asymmetry between CEOs where where one of them is like you know uh like Barack Obama and the other one is uh you know less of a communicator, very interesting.
SPEAKER_00Can you and you said that it starts with awareness of these power differences? Yes. And just to come back to the last two sorts of power that you mentioned, the charismatic one and the one before with the expert power, right? How would you in the framework of a gathering, of a meeting or workshop, how would you help the participants to be aware of these differences and to become aware of how they might unconsciously impact the conversation?
SPEAKER_04That's that's that's a tough one because what I'm trying to do is uh well, by doing this conversation with you and through through writing, um, is to make people more aware um ahead of meetings um of the general impact of power, uh, you know, helping them, you know, recognize power and also that you know power is to some extent a choice, there's something they can do to uh make power more productive, and you know that's then the the phrase that I use like reduce unproductive power differences with credits for uh uh mauck. Um but you know, during a meeting, um when you feel that there's power in the room, maybe that's that's a place where we can go. Um I think there it it really comes back to um well, how do you notice that there's power in the room? And you know, I think you really notice it when people don't share their ideas, when people are keeping things to themselves, and sometimes it's unconsciously, and sometimes it's consciously, like sometimes there's you know politics going on, and people are not you know uh you know showing their true colors because they feel they have to keep it close to their chest, for example. But you know, there's also the more unconscious uh manifestation of power where um people feel well, they don't feel free to speak up because there's no psychological safety. Um if you notice that as a leader in the group, um, and a leader to some extent should be a facilitator, right? Um you address that by asking questions, open-ended questions, activating people again, you know, um activating their executive function, making them think, um, and uh listening to them, um and asking them questions like you know, what can we do to go from A to B? What's holding us back? Almost coach-like questions. Um and then uh you know the the the another step would be really role model, and that's also a form of power, by the way. Good listening. Um, because when you demonstrate good listening by asking questions, uh uh you know, keeping silence in between paraphrasing people like if I understand stood you correctly, did you say this? Um you're really well role modeling listening, and that makes people you know more likely to follow that example. And when people start listening to each other, uh putting the focus on other people instead of themselves, I think you will be able to draw them out and you will open the floor for a real conversation to begin.
SPEAKER_00Before we continue the show, let me take a brief moment to thank our sponsor, Session Lab. Are you using Excel or Word to prepare and schedule your workshops? Try something that is designed for facilitators. With an easy-to-use drag-and-drop agenda builder, Session Lab allows you to be free and creative in your workshop process design. Session Lab also comes with an immense built-in library of workshop activities and facilitation techniques to help you to find new inspiration for your sessions. Stop messing with spreadsheets and focus on designing engaging workshops. Try it as Session Lab.com. I wouldn't recommend it if I didn't believe in its value myself. When you mentioned that there is this sort of power where um participants might deliberately hold back information, and this can change the entire outcome and And the flow of a workshop or a meeting. How can you help them to feel safe enough to share this information? Or maybe even force them, incentivize them to share the information without risking the safe space?
SPEAKER_04Well, I I think that also comes down to role modeling. I think as a leader you should, well, using the word leader, but it could also be a facilitator, you should show humanity by going first. And you know, it reminds me to some extent of a book that you and I both love, Prija Parker's what's the title again? The Art of Gathering. The Art of Gathering. Beautiful book. And I remember a story in that book where she was sitting in a room with I think it was a dinner in the run-up to a conference or something. And um, and she uh, you know, she wanted people to sort of you know drop their guards, really connect with each other because that's what you want at a gathering. Um, and I think she did that by, but maybe you rem remember it more vividly than I do, by telling a story about her teenage years, and I think it was about the first time she had a period or something like like like that. And it was in any case, it was a really personal um story that made her really vulnerable in the space. But by doing it, she opened up the floor for more people to share their stories and to really you know come out.
SPEAKER_00I and I think the rules of this evening was that everyone had to share one story around a specific topic. That was and the last one who would share a story had to sing it. And this was the kind of trick to get to help everyone to come out first or earlier, and she wanted to set the stage, as you said, by telling a story herself and showing and role modeling by being so vulnerable herself, and and I think that's that's very act effective.
SPEAKER_04And um, I actually already listened to the podcast that you released yesterday with Jeremy with Jeremy Akers. Um, and I think he also um uh talked about this this issue of you know sharing like someone has to go first, and you know, if if if there's something not going right in the room, it's also you know, in in trainings, which is more of my thing, sometimes there's resistance, for example, and uh you know you have to address it, and it can be scary. I think that's that's also the stuff that you discussed with with with Jeremy. Um uh but it really works to go first because you know people won't leave you hanging there. Um they they will they will also come.
SPEAKER_00And and I think if you expose your own vulnerability, if you can express your own discomfort, by definition or by instinct, your audience will connect to you, the participants will connect to you because that's how we how we build up trust and bonds to each other is by opening up and showing our true selves.
SPEAKER_04Because you are a human being, right? And you're showing your humanity, and I think showing your humanity is really one of the ways to break through the politics, uh you know, through the concocting and the you know the the plotting uh and all that machinery, uh because it's also that's also so artificial, and and if you then break through and and being an uh you know a real genuine human um really helps, and that's also why I think like some of the um tips from Dill Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. I like that book so much because it's it's it's it's really uh and it's old, and many of the things you know already, but one of the ways to neutralize um you know a power difference uh with someone is and and and that's also when you're less powerful, is to show real interest in the other person, and um you know, really making it about them, and then try to find common interests, and before you know it, you are friends with uh you know a CEO of a big company or or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Everyone likes to talk about him or herself. I think that's the one thing we all share.
SPEAKER_04It's one of these, you know, key principles, fundamental principles of human relations, and power is of course part of that sphere of human relations. So um, yeah, yeah, being human and and vulnerable, I think that really helps.
SPEAKER_00Do you have a trick on how to help, especially those in power, to lower their guards in a meeting, maybe as a warm-up, maybe as a check-in? Is there something you could advise?
SPEAKER_04I I think the most crucial thing is to um and and then I'm gonna draw, you know, I'm gonna refer to some of the neurological research again. I just talked about, you know, the impairment of the executive function with you know powerless people, but there's also research on the other side, and when you have power, something else kicks in, an empathy deficit. And I think it's really important to be aware of that, being a powerful person, um, that you have to make it about the other people in the room or the other person in the room, and not so much about yourself. Try to really understand what's going on with them, uh, you know, put yourself in their shoes, and um, and that's also that that might also even be a source of more power. Like if you go into a training and you think about, oh, maybe I didn't prepare, you know, that well, and I'm a little bit insecure about it, like you know, putting the focus on the other people, like it's not about you, it's about them, and you are you know trying to help them, and you are not more than a vehicle of change. Um really helps you, you know, correct that mindset and you know go at it with the right attitude. Um because you know, in communication, like it's hard, you know, it's really hard, but you should make it about the other person, you know, and good listening is not about you, it's about the other person, and it it's it's you know, the bloodline of productive communication.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And this makes me think of um my time when I worked with a group of very powerful people in an organization, and I realized that they were actually quite lonely. And they were lonely because they didn't receive any positive feedback. They didn't receive this warm shower of their staff members stepping up to them and saying, you know what, you're a great leader. I admire in you that you are a good listener, or that you're taking care of your people, or I like your vision. They don't get this kind of positive feedback. So I wonder whether maybe a warm shower exercise, um, I think it was Steph who mentioned that um in a conversation I had with him, might help them the leaders to connect also to receive um positive feedback and also to share positive feedback. And maybe this what you just said reminded me of this exercise. What do you think?
SPEAKER_04And what is a warm shower exercise?
SPEAKER_00It's that um you would share positive feedback or positive reflection about everyone in the room, just doing a round or something. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that could definitely help. I think that also links back to that whole role role modeling again, right? So showing the um behavior that you would like to have from other people, to see with other people. Um, yeah, so that could definitely help. And and you know, the the well, the need to feel appreciated. That's one of these other, you know, fundamental principles from Dill Dill Carnegie's.
SPEAKER_00I started reading this book after you mentioned it because I was always thinking, with this title, it cannot be good. And then you said, okay, ignore the title. And you were so right.
SPEAKER_04And I think I wrote a you know uh a tiny blog about it uh a few months ago where I also in which I also admitted that I always avoided the book because I thought it was a gimmick. Yeah, and that was also because of my own, you know, ignorance, because I thought it was written by that billionaire, uh Andrew Carnegie, which is not true. That's a completely different person, and they're not even related. So I should have done my research. But when I finally opened the book, you know, I was sold. I think I and it's really weird. Like like I'm I'm 40 now and I've been active in communication as a professional for like more than 20 years, and I opened this book for the first time, and it's like the Bible for people in communication over Christmas last year. Wow, so it's really recent. Um, and I cannot say that I really learned something new from it, and that's the interesting thing. So, why would I you know recommend this book to everyone? But it really puts it together in a nice framework, and it you know offers great reminders, and it's it's filled with anecdotes also, and from people who are long dead, by the way, because that book was written in 1936, I believe. Um but yeah, highly recommended to pick up that book.
SPEAKER_00So and I observed that you were nodding when I mentioned the loneliness of leaders. And I would like to speak about ego and the role of ego in power games because um to me, and maybe I'm judgmental, maybe I'm tot totally ignorant, and you're gonna um share your expertise, I have the impression that power games come from ego, come from vulnerability that tries to be hidden or to remain hidden.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, like like for an individual, that might be the reason why something like this, you know, like um why why politics uh you know emerge um being insecure. Um you know, when I look back at my early 20s, uh I for some weird reason I rose on the ranks of journalism pretty fast in my early 20s. I I was an editor-in-chief, I think, when I was 22, 23, and you know, I had this um editorial department with a couple dozen people in it that I was leading. Um, but I was not even uh you know a grown man. I was I didn't really know myself and I was actually quite insecure. It's 22, it's quite normal. It is quite normal, but you know, I I also had some sort of you know uh um a role model position, um, but I didn't really live up to it because I remember that I I had like this separate office and I really locked myself up there as much as I could to do thinking. Um well, I should have spent much more time with people, communicating, asking them questions, listening. But what I spent most of my time doing is thinking about my own strategies, theories, the kind of stuff that I was going to say, you know, in the media. Um and you know, that's you know, I was young, I was a kid, um, and I was probably not even ready for a position like that. But I think that's an example of where, you know, ego and increasing the power difference because that's what you're doing, and when you're putting a wall between you and other people, you're blocking the conversation, you're increasing the power difference. Hey, you have to knock on the door when you go see the editor-in-chief, like never mind that he's just 22 or 23. But I think I wasn't yeah, I wasn't up to being a real leader and you know breaking down the walls and and and and and you know potentially facing criticism and and and difficult conversations with people who didn't agree with me. You know, now I would say, bring it on. You know, I would like to learn from you. And if you are able to change my perspective, that would be a great day.
SPEAKER_00When you think of meetings, good meetings and bad meetings, what is the magic ingredient that distinguishes a good from a bad meeting?
SPEAKER_04Well, it's it's all about contact um and being able to connect with each other. Um if you have a meeting that really run by the agenda, for example, um, which is by the way, a form of power, um, and you you really want to discuss certain points, and there's no room for people to share their ideas, then there's no contact, people cannot contribute, and it will have a rippling effect within your organization. Um so you know, contact, you know, connect connecting with people is is is is crucial. And I think one of the things that we sort of unearthed um or or uncovered in this conversation is you know you have to be a human. If you go to corporate organizations, I see so many people playing a role. And you know, I have the feeling that I'm almost talking to positions instead of people. And I think in a good meeting, and and you know, what is a good meeting? You know, do you even need a meeting if it's not good? You know, maybe you should get rid of it. And and I think in a meeting, you when you you ask people to come in and for you know 30 minutes or 45 minutes, the only reason why you would do that is for them to be able to bring something to the table.
SPEAKER_00Information gathering conversations, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you you could say so. You know, if if you are a leader and you want to make a decision, it's really important to be able to get the right information uh to make that decision. And you want people to give you the right input about risks and opportunities. Um so yeah, to some extent you're right.
SPEAKER_00How would you how can you manage to give enough space for information sharing and expressing yourself and still remaining within a reasonable time slot or to keep the agenda? Because at the end of the day, although it's a power instrument, there's a reason why we do have agendas, otherwise it's just a brainstorming session.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How can you keep the balance between contribution, connecting, and still keeping the time boxing?
SPEAKER_04I read this, or actually I listened to a podcast interview with Celeste Heatley um a few weeks ago, and I think she has a really good solution for it. Uh because that is the difficulty, right? Um, of course, you know, I would like to this for this conversation to go for on forever because it's super interesting and fun, uh, but time is limited, and especially within organizations. So time is a real element to to keep into account. Um, and I think Celeste Heatley herself has a team that she leads. Um, yeah, she's a a former journalist and she wrote a book about conversations. I still have to read the book, by the way, but I listened to a couple of podcast interviews with her, and she says, like, you have to separate um, you know, the information gathering from taking the decisions. Um, and what she means by that is uh, you know, if you have a point on the agenda, uh, and I think in that podcast interview she talked about, you know, for example, the the Christmas dinner party for our team or whatever, um, she says, like, okay, people, um, you know, what are the ideas? And then she uh, you know, um asks people to to uh contribute to it, and and it's always good to ask, you know, a coaching question, like what else? To to also encourage other people to share um their ideas, and then she says, Okay, then we do this, and then she moves on to the next point. So she says, like, one of the mistakes that people make is that they mix decision making with information gathering, and you have to keep those things uh separate. There's another example that comes to mind, by the way, and um I read a big Harvard Business Review case study uh written by Amy Edmondson, who is you know the uh person behind psychological safety, and she she wrote a case study about the Chilean mining disaster, you know, when you know these people were stuck in the mine, and they you know, engineers from all of the world had to come together to uh create a solution for these people to come out. Um, and she said, like, the way they did it was to apply something she called, I think, duality leadership, and that's on one hand, um, really calling the shots, right? Making decisions and being the leader, using your power, and on the other hand, engaging people to share their ideas and to really have an open floor. Um, so I think the basic ideas you have to be mindful that these things are two separate elements, and they are both really important. Um, you need to take a decision at the end and you have to do it within a certain amount of time, but you also have to you know give room for people to you know show up in the best possible way and help you find the best solution, but then also be able to close the discussion, and this is maybe the positive use of power to just thank the group for their contribution, close the discussion, and then move on. Absolutely, because power is not you know necessarily evil or unproductive, always it can be unproductive, but there are also productive ways of using uh using power. You know, I I think uh a really good example comes again from that book uh written by Prija Parker. I would really encourage people to read it because I think it's it's brilliant, and I I like the concept also of you know calling it a gathering instead of a meeting. So I had already named my podcast meeting strategist by then, but I sort of like the word gathering, anyway. Um she's really one of the things in the book is that you have to use your power to create a good gathering, and one of the uh points on which you want to use your power is you know, purpose. You you have to create a purpose, uh, and you have to design your meeting around uh a purpose, and that's one of the you know, you and you don't want to be, I think she's she calls it like a chill host uh who sort of you know wants to make people feel happy, and then you become laid back and you sort of relinquish your power, and you said, like, okay, can I bring my friend to the party? And you say, fine, but you know, she says, No, no, no, no. Then you have to use your power, like if he's not going to contribute to the to the uh you know purpose of the gathering in the first place, you really um have to show your power. And one of the examples that I actually wanted to mention was that there was this consultancy company, I guess, that she talks about in her book, and uh in the meeting, in the board meetings, board members were trying to postpone uh uh the decision making, and they were constantly asking questions about the information that was available and asking for more information, and then at some point the leader of the group imposed a rule which is power um, guys, you know, we don't Add any new information to these meetings. These meetings should be about coaching questions. It should be about what's holding your back, what should be your next step, how am I supposed to do this? These kind of things. So you can have a real conversation and people start sharing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And this also puts the participants to the meeting in the responsibility to get the information beforehand so that the meeting time is not used to just exchange information but to exchange ideas.
SPEAKER_04Because you would be wasting the time of, I don't know, 12 people in a room. That's 12 times an hour or or whatever. And you know, one of the main things I'm I'm trying to do with meeting strategists is you know, and and that's also why it's called meeting strategist, by the way, the strategy side is really about focusing on the purpose of the meeting. And do you have to need to have the meeting in the first place? And do you need to have all these people in the room? Because, you know, let's face a fact, we are all meeting, and I'm not doing it because I'm extremely conscious of it. Um, but most of the people are meeting, you know, too much, like they're in too many meetings that are not meaningful, that don't add anything, and where they not necessarily contribute anything with their presence. No, yeah, because you know what happens, and um, you know, I had uh you in your introduction you uh referenced to the deep listening episode as part of my podcast, and deep listening is a term um, as far as I know, introduced by Oscar Trimboli, um, who was my guest on that episode. Um, and and he he says, like, you know, many people go from one meeting to another, and they don't take time to settle down, organize their thoughts, listen to themselves, and and then go to the next meeting. No, they just rush into it, they check their phone once more, and that means you know, some people, yeah, most people are so overconfident about their ability to listen. Listening is so hard, and no one, even if you are the most incredible listening Jedi in the world, no one can really listen to other people and putting the focus on other other people when you are distracted by mobile phones, distracted by your own stress, your you know, the rush to get home after the meeting because you have to pick up your kid, all these things. Noise, all the noise, you know, it's it's really hard to pick up signal when you're surrounded by all that noise. So you really have to um be aware of that.
SPEAKER_00I like the how you phrase it to pick up signal when you're surrounded by noise, and signal being the signal of the person opposite of you whom you want to listen to. And I just had a look at the time, and I have the impression that we could go on for another two hours easily.
SPEAKER_04Um we'll get back for a part two.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I was about to say that. So um, if one listener just woke up and missed the entire last 50 minutes, what do you want them to remember?
SPEAKER_04Well, the the main theme that we talked about was uh power in meetings, power in conversations, um, and the ripple effect it could have within organizations. Um and I think the most important thing is to be aware that power is everywhere, it's not only in the newspaper or on the TV news when we look at Trump and political leaders and war and corporate boardrooms. Power is also in our daily lives, it's it's everywhere. It's not necessarily evil, but it's something you have to be aware with, uh aware of to make sure that it doesn't ruin your interactions. Um, and there's lots of things you can do to make that happen, but you know, in the end it all comes back to the main communication principles of being interested in other people, asking open-ended questionings, questions, um, listening. Um, and um, yeah, I think that's what I would like people to pick up from this, and and actually, you know, to to come up with a little bit of self-promotion. Power is probably gonna be the main theme in the second season of my podcast, Meeting Strategist, and I'm gonna launch a whole lot of blogs on it in the next uh couple months. So if people are interested, can I mention my domain name?
SPEAKER_00This is my next question. How we can find you.
SPEAKER_04You know, taking the power here myself, please um people can find me on uh uh meetingstrategist.org, um, which is the place where my blog and podcast uh lives. And if you're interested in this theme, I'm gonna be publishing you know a lot of material on it in the next few months.
SPEAKER_00Great, I'm looking forward to it. Marcel, thank you for your time, for your space, for your energy and your ideas.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Miriam.
SPEAKER_00Bye bye. Thank you for staying tuned and listening to the show. I appreciate your attention as I know how busy you are. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and engage by sharing your comments and thoughts and visit workshops.org to download the one page summary. I'm looking forward to seeing you back at the next episode, and I wish you a fruitful day.
